Giannis-Knicks Reaction With Ian Begley. Plus, a Spurs Deep Dive and Reasons to Watch the Dregs With Mo Dakhil.

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Alright, coming up on a brand new loaded Zack Low show, we got Ian Begley from SNY, my go-to Knicks guy, to talk a little bit about the Shams Trania bombshell on ESPN this week.

That the Knicks and the Bucs recently and somewhat at Giannis' behest, or at least the behest of his camp, discussed the parameters of a theoretical, fantastical Giannis to the Knicks trade.

The discussions, according to Shams, didn't really go anywhere, not surprising.

Ian and I are going to talk about why that is, the difficulty in constructing the...

any kind of trade that makes sense for both teams and why the Knicks should maybe be hesitant to do it or should they be hesitant to do it if down the line, whether it's at the trade deadline or beyond, this ever comes to fruition.

But I'm mostly glad we get to see this version of the Knicks play because I'm very high on this team.

Ian and I also talked a little baseball last night.

It was a fun night in Major League Baseball.

Fun night.

Mo Takil, former video coordinator for the Spurs and the Clippers.

He's all over NBA media now.

We're going to do deep dives on the Spurs, my most fascinating team of the year.

Wonder why the Spurs get that designation.

And reasons to watch the dregs of the the NBA.

Sorry, Brooklyn, Charlotte, Washington, Utah, you are the dregs, but we love you and we're going to tell other people why they should love you too.

That's all coming up after this on the Zach Low Show.

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Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show.

Ian Bengley from SNY, my old colleague.

How are you doing, sir?

What's up, Zach?

How are you?

I'm good, my friend.

I'm good.

It's a big week in New York Sports.

We're going to get to some snark that I feel today, some Schadenfreude that I feel today in a minute, but we got to start with the Knicks.

The Knicks were in the news this week just by being the Knicks.

We got no picks, but we're the Knicks.

We're in the news.

Sean Strania, who's been on top of this Giannis Willie Wonie story for months now, which I have kept saying on this podcast is a real thing, and there's something going on there with him looking around.

And he advanced the story by saying there was one team this summer that Giannis and his representatives zeroed in on as like, if I do it, this is how I would do it.

If I did it, this is how I would do it.

The Knicks.

And apparently there was an exclusive negotiating window with the Knicks, according to Shams.

It doesn't appear to have gone anywhere.

It appears to be dormant now.

Mikael Bridges cannot be traded until February 1st after signing an extension on August 1st.

That feels slightly calculated.

That's before the trade deadline.

So big picture, Ian,

anything going on here now?

And could anything go on here in the future?

Big picture in the future, yes.

And I say that, Zach, obviously, they did talk in August that a source confirmed Shams reporting there.

And what we're looking at here for the Knicks is championship or bust, basically, right?

Because, you know, you fire Tom Thibodeau, get into the conference finals, you change the coach.

The expectation is you get a step further, at least.

And I think that's the expectation from the top of the organization down.

So I do think there could be something there in the future because if things don't end the way the Knicks want them to end this season, you're going into the offseason where Giannis is extension eligible, will have some more leverage in terms of maybe deciding where he goes, where he doesn't go.

So a little more leverage there that he didn't have this offseason.

And the Knicks will be hungry to make a push for a championship roster because that's the edict here in New York.

So yeah, this is something to keep an eye on.

I don't think anything is there now, but certainly depending on how things go in season, it's something that we'll probably be revisiting.

Yeah, I've been saying for two months that all this Giannis noise is cool.

I think it's real.

I think something is clearly happening within his group where this is coming from, if you ask me.

But that the rubber meets the road in the summer of 2026 when they hand him the extension.

And the Bucs will say today, like, hey, we've done this dance before.

Every time he tiptoes up to the line, we do something.

We did the Miles Turner thing.

It's our new Drew Holiday.

It's our new Damian Lillard.

Not quite as good a player, but our new big swing.

We have actually some flexibility to do more stuff just because of how far they are under the tax.

They can have a lot more leeway to make trades, so they may still have a bullet in the chamber.

But we've done this before, and every time we put that extension in front of him, the noise goes away, and he signs it, and we have this temporary reprieve.

Maybe we can do that again.

I've also said, like, in-season trades of a player who makes $54 million of this stature, at worst, the fourth best player in the league,

are just really difficult to do.

They become much easier to do in the offseason when teams get a little bit looser with their financial flexibility.

But, and I think that's a blessing for the Knicks and for all the other teams who would be interested in trading for Giannis if this ever were to occur.

And there are, all those teams are still lurking.

The Knicks get a chance to see this team that they have done a lot of moves for to make on the floor.

They get to see the new coach.

They get to see a year of continuity with Kat and a year plus with Ananobi and Bridges.

How does this all fit together in an East that is there for the taking?

The Rockets get to see how good are we with Kevin Durant?

How good do we project to be if Fred Van Vlee comes back next season?

Everybody gets some time.

And I think the Knicks need, and I think this roster sort of

deserves time, frankly, because

the East is there, them and Cleveland, and a bunch of teams chasing them.

The Knicks are not scared of Cleveland.

They have a ton of talent.

They've done well rounding out their bench.

And I kind of want to see what this team does first.

And And the Knicks, because of how the Bucs timetable works, because of how the Bridges timetable works, they will have time to see how this team looks.

I agree with you, Zach, in terms of in-season deals.

It's just hard to see that happening in season, a player of that stature.

So certainly, this is the group that the Knicks are starting the season with, and they're excited.

Just talking to people in the building, around the team.

They're talking about actually Mitchell Robinson.

I've heard that name come up a few times just in terms of his health, how good he looks.

Mikhail Bridges, a year in New York under his belt, now operating under a new head coach, Mike Brown, who seems very excited to use him in a variety of ways.

Mike Brown installing his offense, installing his defense.

Maybe we see Carl Towns, Mitchell Robinson starting together in that opening night starting lineup.

So there's a lot of excitement here around this team based on where they have been and based on where they could go.

The kind of excitement that I don't think you've seen around here for a long, long time where the Knicks are coming into the season with a legitimate chance to win the championship.

You mentioned Mitchell Robinson.

Very important name in all of these discussions.

He's extension eligible.

I mentioned that a couple weeks ago.

It's something I'd keep an eye on, but I think that I sense that that's an after,

that's a free agency thing, not an extension thing, but that could change.

If there is a trade for Giannis at any point,

Kat almost has to go out in that trade to make it workable in any way.

We're going to talk about the fake trades, and that makes Mitchell Robinson like the one and only proven center on the team.

Huck Porty still is here as a backup center.

Yabu Sali can play the backup five.

They'd have to go out and get another backup five, probably.

So he's a massively important piece.

I love that Mike Brown seems to be leaning towards starting him.

I love, I've heard the same as you, that he's healthy, he's bouncy, he looks great.

That's all very exciting.

A couple of things I wanted to note here.

I do enjoy Giannis, the irony of Giannis deciding only after the Knicks have traded all of their draft picks that he wants to get traded to the Knicks.

I think that's it.

It's a nice touch.

It's almost like some version of when Mello signed a longer deal and all his buddies and he couldn't team up with them, or when Mellow decided he wanted to get traded to the Knicks, but you got to trade everything to get me and there's not enough left in the door when I come.

Or when Damian Lillard Lillard is like, cool, you guys got Jeremy Grant and signed him to a gazillion dollars.

Now I want to be traded.

There's a certain irony of that.

And the lack of picks is a big deal.

Okay, let's talk about how this would work.

I really struggled here to figure out like a real workable trade that makes sense for the Bucs.

I have, in listening to some of the people who recorded yesterday on this, including Bill and Ariel Hawani on Bill's podcast, there has been a lot of like, would this even help the Knicks?

Is this even worth it for the Knicks?

I think that's interesting, and that's the angle I want to zero in on as we go through some trades.

You ready?

Yes.

Easiest trade number one, Cat plus a small salary because the Knicks can't take in more than they send out and Giannis makes like a million more than Cat for Giannis.

That's just a non-starter for the Bucs.

I don't see it.

Do you?

Can we just move on from that?

No, I think it's a non-starter.

They're going going to want draft compensation.

They're going to want more.

And I'll say this maybe after we go through some of the trade scenarios, but I think there's so many hurdles to be crossed, to be cleared before Giannis to New York becomes even remotely a reality.

But let's keep going through them.

Okay.

Bridges can't be traded right now.

So let's go on to the next most plausible one.

Cat and Anadobe.

That's $93 million in combined salary for this coming season.

For Giannis and Miles Turner, which is $79 million and works because the Bucs are far enough under the tax for it to work.

No, and whatever picks.

The Knicks have the fake Wizards pick that's one to eight protected that they're never going to get.

It's going to be seconds or whatever it converts to.

And swap rights on their 2030 and 2032 picks.

That's it for now.

After the draft, they can trade who they pick in the 2026 draft or agree to that kind of thing before.

Don't see the Bucs doing that because Miles Turner, like, that's not a throw-in.

That dude's a good player.

So, I'm going to move on to the next one.

Are you ready?

Sure.

Here's where we get to semi-plausibility: Kat and Ananobi for Yannis and Kuzma.

So, Kuzma goes in the Miles Turner.

I got to add some salary, but this is a salary that didn't really work out for us.

We're cool moving on from him.

That works.

I checked it in the trade machine and the trade checker.

It actually,

according to

ESPN's trade machine, and I don't know

how accurate this is or what it's really based on.

I think it's based on Hollinger's old numbers.

Hollinger has not worked for ESPN for like 10 years.

Adds five wins to the Bucks and takes away three wins from the Knicks projection.

That one at least is worth talking about, I think.

Again, this is all theoretical.

Nothing is happening right now.

What do you think of that one?

Well, I think that does make more sense because you're thinking about Milwaukee and you're thinking about adding another player into the Gannis deal.

You're going to want to add a player that you want to get off of or would be comfortable getting off of that gives you a little bit more financial freedom.

And why would you do that if it's Miles Turner, a guy you just acquired?

So that to me makes a little bit more sense if we're talking about

Knicks including all their draft capital in a deal like that.

I think that could get you at least a few conversations, a few phone calls.

It's not a one and done there.

This is what I find interesting, though, the follow-up discussion of if you're going to trade for Giannis,

who is, again, at worst, the fourth best player in the NBA and enters the season, I think, as the third best player in the NBA and is not 31 years old yet.

He's just 30.

I do still feel like it's the same danger with every mega superstar trade.

Every time one of these things becomes even remotely rumored, you have this segment of NBA fans and analysts who are like, well, it's Giannis.

You have to do it no matter what.

It's Kevin Durant.

You have to do it no matter what.

It's so-and-so top 10 player.

You have to do it no matter the cost.

And I always say, and I said this with Durant to Phoenix at the time, who paid an enormous cost, including Mikael Bridges.

It's just not that simple.

Like the cost, particularly when these guys, now Durant was much older than Giannis is now.

Giannis is not the shooter,

not even in the same universe as a shooter as Durant, and shooting is the skill that ages the best.

So let's, you know, apples to oranges to some degree.

The future cost is real.

The future pain is real, real enough that you have to think we can win the title immediately when this guy gets in the door.

And that's when I hear a lot of Knicks people and Bill and Ariel talked about this yesterday.

I'm not sure that theoretical Giannis trade, the one I just outlined, cat in Ananobi for Giannis and Kuzma, actually helps us win the, actually satisfies that part of the equation.

Do you want to go?

Can we go through the roster that the Knicks would have in that case?

Let's do it.

Okay.

Starters, Brunson.

Well, starters currently are Brunson, Bridges, Ananobi, Robinson, Kat, and the bench we know.

This theoretical Knicks team, Brunson, Bridges.

I'm going to let Hart stay in the starting five or move into the starting five in this case.

Giannis, Mitchell, Robinson.

So right away, I've got like the Hart, Giannis, Robinson spacing is, I don't know how that's going to work.

On the bench, let's just say I keep McBride.

I keep Clarkson.

Kuzma can come off the bench.

I keep Yabuselli, Huck Porty.

Solid bench, still a solid bench.

Maybe I have one of the kids left over, one of the Brogdon Shamut guys left over, whatever else is there.

It's an interesting team.

What do you think of that team?

Yeah, the shooting, the one thing I would say is maybe you go McBride for Hart, and then you solve a little bit of the shooting in the starting five, but that spacing there, not starting five, would give me pause.

I mean, look, Giannis, obviously, as you're saying, Zach, no lower than top four in the league, but

what are you giving up?

You're giving up so much spacing in terms of towns and Ananobi, who shot and looked really good recently.

So it changes the complexion of your team in a massive way.

I think there's depth there on that team.

I think there's potential there on that team.

I just wonder, you know, with the importance of shooting in today's NBA, how much are you handicapping yourself there?

I think it's a really interesting discussion.

My first instinct was the same as Bill's and Ariel's of like, I kind of like the team as it is right now, particularly in this Eastern Conference.

And you do have to factor in that they're at least a co-favorite to win the East as is.

So taking no risks, making no changes, you are in a really, really strong position now and probably even next year when the East gets healthier again, despite the fact that there are some teams rising.

And that's important.

It's a version of, not the same, of when the Celtics were rumored when there was like the Jalen Brown for Durant, and the Celtics would have had to add a lot of bunch of stuff to send to Brooklyn for Durant.

And part of the reasons I didn't like that idea for Boston was like, I think you're already the favorites to win the title.

Yes, you could make yourself potentially an even stronger favorite to win the title by getting Durant for Jalen Brown, plus who knows what else, lots of stuff.

But is that really worth the future cost, aging up 10 years and the Celtics and then ended up winning the title with Jalen Brown?

So it's a version of that.

And I get that.

The shooting questions are real.

Here's what I think that sort of knee-jerk reaction is missing.

Trading towns now

or at any time in the next 18 months gets you out of what figures to be an extremely dicey extension situation or new contract situation with Kat, who makes $57 million next season, has a $61 million player option for 27, 28, and is older, I think, than Giannis.

Kat is, no,

he's a year younger,

29 years, almost 30, so about the same age.

And obviously is a negative on defense.

Now, the shooting is unbelievable.

He's the greatest shooting big big man of all time, E.

Here Dirk.

But I think, and then like Ananobi, 40 million, 42.5 million, 45 million, 48 million.

I love OG Ananobi.

When that trade got made for the Knicks, and there was this, like, well, Emmanuel Klinkley is secretly the best player in the trade.

I was like, on what planet do we live?

Like, he's not the best player in the trade.

And Ananobi was spectacular for the Knicks.

I'm not sure how much trade value that contract has for a guy who did play 74 games last year, but before that, 50, 67, 48, 43.

Like, I think there's some sort of like,

upside is the wrong word.

Some

like consolidating those two for the third best player in the NBA at age 30 has some more,

there's like some financial flexibility.

Again, upside is not the right word, bright side maybe, that I think is being slept on.

And you still do have Brunson and Giannis and some that like I'm not sold that it's just a knee-jerk not great idea to do it and even if you factor in extending Giannis you're still creating some financial flexibility in that deal because the future money with Ananobi and with whatever you would do with Towns on his next deal

I think that matters but I think the Knicks

They just strike me as so all in right now as trying to get to the top of the mountain that, yes, you have to consider those future years, but I don't know how strongly you factor that in if you see this window here in front of you, no Tatum, no Halliburton, and this is the time to do it.

And so that's how I think it's being looked at.

So I don't know how much, how strongly the future years would factor in when you're doing a cost-benefit analysis there.

The thing that is semi-interesting to me, but not really semi-interesting was, you know, I was told that Giannis, in terms of New York,

he's very very intrigued he has been very very intrigued by the idea idea of bringing a title here and uh i mean it's obvious to say anywhere he goes he'd want to win right but this is a little bit different they haven't won since 73 i'm sure that he sees the same window that the knicks see and um that's why you know i think These things never happen in season, but only because of that factor do I wonder if the Knicks make a strong push, only if things are going sideways during the year.

And that's why I agree with you.

Like, that's why it's beneficial for everybody to see how things play out before you go in and you make the Godfather offer.

Yeah, to be clear, like, if I'm the Knicks, I want to see how this works.

Yeah.

Yes.

And if I'm the Bucs, like I just said, like, I'm not sure how much trade value those kind of contracts have.

Like, the Bucs are not doing that trade for Kat and Anano.

I mean, I don't think they would do that trade.

I don't know what that actually does for them.

Like, am I going to flip those guys for three first-round picks here and five first-round picks there, or go get a couple of my picks back that I really need if I'm going to rebuild?

You know,

if they loved those players and their mandate was, like, love them, and their mandate was, we don't have our picks.

We need to stay as competitive as possible now.

That's what I wanted.

That's what I wanted.

And we have no other offers that can beat that.

That's the only way that it becomes viable, even with Giannis putting his thumb on the scale.

And I just don't see all those conditions ever being met.

And as you said, I want to see how this team looks for the Knicks.

The only

reason that revamped roster without Cat and Ananobi is a little bit interesting to me other than the obvious of having Brunson and Giannis on the same team is if there is one set-in-stone reason why the Knicks wouldn't get to the finals this year or wouldn't be able to test Oklahoma City or Denver or whoever comes out of the better conference in the finals.

And I'm not saying they can't.

I'm just saying if we get to that point and it turns out they're just not as good as those teams or can't make the finals, it's the Brunson-Cat combo on defense.

And

somehow, if you discover that that's just a fatal flaw, you have to fix it somehow.

This would be a way to fix it.

But I don't, this is all pie in the sky to me.

Zach, I just want to reiterate, too, because the idea that the Knicks would have even a top four or five offer among the teams that would be interested in Giannis, I don't think that's the case.

So the way for this to work, and again,

so many things have to fall in place, would be for either the Bucs to decide to work with Giannis

and do that to the detriment of the future of their franchise, or for Giannis to make things uncomfortable, to use the leverage that he would have with his next deal and say, hey, you could trade for me, but I only want to be in New York, so it's going to be a rental.

And so those are the two ways that I see this kind of being

any semblance of a reality.

And so, yeah, there's just a lot that needs to happen before you get there.

Yeah, just as a reminder, the short to medium list of teams that would or should

inquire seriously about Giannis, if this ever were to happen, includes, in no particular order, Houston, San Antonio, the Hawks,

the Heat, the Knicks, the Cavs, maybe the Warriors.

The L.A.

teams in Brooklyn would love to get in.

I don't know that it makes any sense for them.

And boy, can you imagine if Oklahoma City hadn't won the finals last year, what they could offer the Bucs, but that's done.

They did win the finals.

Okay, theoretical deal number four.

This is where the picks being out the door really hurts.

And there's nothing to do about it.

Like, they built this team.

They knew the risks when they traded for Bridges.

I wrote it at the time.

When they traded for Bridges, it was a clear signal.

We cannot wait for Giannis.

And we're out on Embiid.

We're just, and they knew.

So if they had picks, then you could build a Bridges plus Andanobi and we keep Cat offer.

That's just not viable to me for the Bucs.

I don't see what those two players really, really do for the Bucs.

The interesting theoretical question, Ian Begley.

Should you even think about if you're the Knicks, and this is just me, whole cloth, making it up, should you even think about Brunson plus Hart

for Freanis?

I don't think

that even crosses anyone's mind in a serious way.

Because you look at where the Knicks were before Jalen Brunson.

Zach, you know, we've talked about this so often.

He's a hero.

He's a hero here.

Yeah, and he's the impetus to this whole thing.

I mean, Leon Rose, to me, he put his job on the line when he traded those salaries in the summer of signing Brunson just to get enough money to make that offer to Brunson, which maybe we forget now, but the Knicks got crushed for offering that money.

And then he took less again.

Yeah, so this was a make-or-break moment for Leon Rhodes and really for the franchise.

And it worked out in a spectacular way.

So

I don't think there's a world where the Knicks even think about trading Jalen Brunson for Aganis and the Compo in this window right here where they're in.

Just let me imagine it.

Salary is almost an exact match, by the way, Brunson plus Hart plus whatever draft equity and young players you toss in.

I totally agree with you.

And as a romantic, right?

As a romantic, Brunson deserves to see this through forever.

He deserves to be a Nick Leifer.

I think the fans want him to be a Nick Lifer.

But my romanticism took a little hit, not a big hit, but my romantic soul took a little hit when DiVincenzo went out in the cat deal, breaking up the Nova guys.

That hurt me a little bit because that was fun.

You would have a starting five of McBride potentially if you keep him, right?

The Bucs maybe insist on him, but let me dream.

McBride, Bridges and Anobi Kat Giannis.

That's kind of like a holy shit lineup.

I know it doesn't have Brunson, but then you just have point Giannis with this shooting and defense all around him, and the bench is more or less the same.

I'm just saying.

I don't want to.

You know what, everyone, pretend I never mentioned this.

I'm going to say this, Zach.

If this...

If this crazy deal were to happen, it's not happening with this team president in the driver's seat.

It would have to be somebody else running the team.

I feel very comfortable saying that.

You got to be colder than that, man.

Ain't no family in trying to win an NBA championship.

But this literally is.

I think Leon is his godfather.

I know.

I know.

So

I can confidently say that.

Look, there's a reason I brought it up as a just sort of fantastical scenario.

And then the last one is you just, when Bridges becomes trade eligible, the cat plus Bridges for Giannis and Kuzma with Bridges going into Ananobi's spot.

I just think, I think I'm trying to imagine,

and that roster to me is better than the one with Ananobi going out because I trust Ananobi's outside shooting more than I trust Bridges' outside shooting.

Actually, I think Ananobi is a better defensive player than Bridges.

Bridges has a little bit more on-ball juice, but we kind of saw that

be minimized last year under Tibbs.

I think it maybe could be maximized this year under Mike Brown, but TBD.

The only reason I.

I just want to say this quickly.

Is he miscast as an on-ball defender, Mikhail Bridges?

Because he's so good off the ball, so disruptive off the ball.

I just want to hear your thoughts.

I think I saw Mike Brown's comments.

I might have even read it in one of your pieces on sny.com about mixing up what Mikhail does defensively this year on the ball, off the ball.

I mean, he was not as good getting around screens last year on the ball, and even in the playoffs, they had to sort of switch up who guarded Halliburton now and then who guarded other on-ball guys.

But I think he's still a very good on-ball defender.

I don't really worry about that.

But you have the luxury with Ananobi and to a lesser extent, McBride and Hart of just sort of like, hey, what fits best in this matchup?

I just, my only point is

I think people need to think more deeply about this theoretical roster that has Giannis instead of Kat and Kuzma instead of one of Ananobi and Bridges, because my knee-jerk reaction was like, well, the Knicks, that's like,

is it lateral?

Is it a lateral move?

I just think the upside of having a a top five player in the NBA who's elite, well, defensively slipped a little bit, but he's very, very good and solves your one structural flaw of Brunson Catt being huntable on defense.

I just think it's, I'm not ready to do it yet.

I might not be ever ready to do it because my initial reaction was to play it conservative.

The more I thought about it, the more I was like, you need to at least do a deep dive on this.

And Zach, I want to say, too, I think that Shams had reported that the Bucs didn't think the Knicks were serious.

The Knicks didn't think the Bucs were serious.

Just in checking around the last couple of days, the Knicks, they made what they felt was a real offer.

It wasn't like they offered, you know, a few bench pieces and the rest of their picks.

They made what they felt was a real offer.

Specific names.

It's going to annoy you probably, but I don't have it strongly enough to report at the moment.

You can annoy me, Ian.

But it was a real offer.

So that, to me, was interesting too.

And why did it happen after Bridges got extended?

That to me is

equally, not equally puzzling, but also puzzling.

Should they regret the Bridges deal?

We'll see.

I mean, I think this, I don't want to punt on the question, but I think what happens this year will answer the question, right?

And I think that you hit it.

Like they made the calculated decision that instead of waiting for maybe being able to trade for Giannison and Telecompo, they had a deal with Bridges, a deal that I don't think they ever thought was possible because the Nets never engaged them on Mikhail Bridges ever until it started to happen.

And they felt that Bridges was the perfect fit for that group.

So that was the calculation then.

At that point, I don't know if you could argue with it.

Now, hindsight, especially if they don't get to where they want to go, there's going to be a lot of post-mortem on that deal and what you could have done with Giannis or other players.

I'm going to just go, no, they shouldn't regret it.

Is there one and a half pieces too many in the deal?

Probably.

We all knew that at the time.

Everybody knew it was an overpay.

The Knicks knew it was an overpay.

But I wrote at the time and I have to stand by it now.

Like,

I thought the Knicks were the second best team in the East

after the, you know, whatever season that was, 23, 24, when they got all bent, when half the team got injured against Indiana in the second round of the playoffs.

I thought they posed the biggest threat to Boston fully formed.

Now,

that's Randall.

That's pre-cat, that's pre-all this, and Bridges is also pre-cat.

And so I had enough faith in that team to say, I'm comfortable putting chips in now

because I can't wait forever.

Whether it's two years, four years, five years, for one of these players.

You know, who's it going to be?

Jalen Brown?

Obviously, it could have been Giannis, maybe, but with still a maybe.

Embiid was already like, can I really,

am I really putting in a million picks for Embiid?

I stamped.

Then they added Cat, which was a further remake of their team.

And so that's why this is really the year, even more than last year, that now we've had time to marinate this team.

But yeah, it was an overpay.

We all knew it was an overpay.

I just liked a team saying, you know what, we believe in what we just accomplished.

Yeah, we got, we believe we would have beat Indiana had we been healthy.

We believe we could have put up a great fight against an elite, elite team in Boston, a championship team, and would have been ready to fight again next year.

We're not waiting anymore.

We're making this team better now.

I admire that.

I wouldn't regret it if I were them.

Again, I don't think you could really argue it at that point.

You know how pro sports works.

There's going to be Riversinus history if they don't get all the way there.

But I agree with you, Zach.

Given all the parameters at play there, even pre-Randall trade, I think it made made all the sense in the world, especially because how they thought he would fit kind of seamlessly.

And again, he had his ups and downs last year, regular season.

He had a very good postseason.

So I do think this year

will give you a lot of evidence in terms of whether that answer is a yes or a no.

But I'm with you right now, Zach, in terms of what they did and when they did it.

Do you have time for me to tell you about a dream I had last night?

I definitely have time.

And I also want to ask you a baseball question, but I want to hear your dream first.

We're going to get there.

We're going to get there.

a it's a segue okay I like it

uh this is how my mind works I had a dream last night that it was the 2026 playoffs and the Memphis Grizzlies huh basketball in basketball and the Memphis Grizzlies were playing the Minnesota Timberwolves and I had come out on television in the dream and was like look I don't trust John Morant Jaron Jackson's injured uh Brandon Clark is injured like as if it was now as if the injury situation for Memphis persisted into the playoffs.

I'm all in Minnesota championship contender.

Sweep.

It's going to be a sweep.

And in the dream, it was game three of the series.

Memphis had won the first two, and they were up by 30 in the middle of game three.

And someone on Minnesota had gotten hurt and was like evacuated from the stadium.

This is all happening in my dream.

And then people started clowning the whole TV panel.

I was still at Ani S Pienna in this dream.

They started clowning all of us because we had all had picked the wolves easily.

Clips started going viral.

It was embarrassing, but kind of funny.

And that brings me to:

I've never met Michael Kay.

I'm a big fan of his show.

I listen whenever I drive around.

Big day for Michael Kay today because one of the joys of following baseball this year was seeing sort of commentary go viral.

And do you remember what Michael Kay said about the Blue Jays this year?

It was in response to Buck Martinez.

Nope, it was

pre-Buck Martinez.

Remind me of his exact words.

In July, when the Blue Jays passed the Yankees, he said, they're not a first-place team.

Right.

Not a first-place team.

Probably referring to their run differential.

And he elaborated on it quite artfully on his radio show.

I was driving around listening to it after the Blue Jays had swept the Yankees.

And then at some point later than that, the Blue Jays beat the Yankees a couple times again and celebrated, I guess.

And unless it's AI or something, I hadn't seen this at the time.

He said something about,

don't hang on the rim.

Hang on.

Don't hang on the rim in July.

With the Yankees, we hang on the rim in October.

And I just, the Blue Jays are going to have a field day today, and it just delights me to no end.

Not at Michael Kay's expense, just that the evil empire has been vanquished yet again.

I'm a bitter Mets fan.

I own it.

I admit it.

And part of my maturity, I had hoped, Ian,

as I become a baseball fan again in my 40s,

part of, I would have hoped I would have grown mature enough to be happy for the success of others, To be happy that my friends who like the Yankees would get to enjoy the success of their baseball team, as I would hope they might be happy for me when the day comes when my baseball team is successful.

And I'm happy to report that I am not mature.

I remain immature and bitter, and I am happy that they are upset today.

Look, every sports fan still has that immature piece in them, and that's what makes it fun.

That's why we love it, right?

And I want to know your reaction.

This is what I was going to ask you to

Big Poppy and Vlad Guerrero Jr.

talking about the Yankees and saying, the

Yankees lose over and over on that Fox post game.

Don't tell me you didn't see it.

I didn't see it.

Oh, you're going to enjoy it.

It's the first thing I'm going to do

when I get off this.

You're going to enjoy it.

But I'm sure everyone else loved it.

Look,

I listened to a lot of baseball on the radio in my teens, my 20s, my early 30s.

I know that voice.

I know it.

Yes.

Because sometimes the Mets aren't playing, and I want to listen to a different game, or the Mets station was fuzzy where I was driving.

I want to listen to a different game.

I know that voice.

Little John Sterling.

Yeah, of course.

It's a part of it.

And

I said this.

I don't remember who the guest was.

I said this, and I mean, no, no disrespect.

It's not about either John Sterling or Susan Walbin.

It's not about their

acumen, their amazing, their legends in the business.

If I were in a restaurant eating dinner, biting into my first bite of, I don't know what I would get that night, a

nice filet mignon or something, and I heard one of those voices behind me.

It's like slow motion, like when the cup drops and usual suspects, the fork drops onto the plate, and I'm walking out.

I might dine and dash.

I might not even pay.

I'm walking out.

Ian Begley, any concluding thoughts on the Knickerbockers?

By the way, we didn't even talk like this year.

I really love this team.

I'm excited for them to play.

I think if I had to pick right now who's winning the East, I'm probably going to pick the Knicks.

It makes me nervous.

The Brunson cat, particularly cat piece of it, makes me a little nervous.

But the Cavs have reasons to make me nervous too.

And I'm not quite ready to trust anybody else.

I think they walk in as my favorites to win the East.

So let's let it ride.

Forget about the Greek freak.

Yeah, it's going to be a fun year at the Garden for sure.

Again, I don't think you've gone into this, a season like this, having these expectations legitimately since the early 90s, mid-90s.

So the Nick fan around here is very excited to see what the product looks like.

That comes with expectations.

The stakes are super, super high and that comes with pressure and we'll see how this group deals with it.

But certainly sitting here right now, everybody's very excited for this thing to get started, especially now that the baseball seasons are over here in New York and the football seasons have been over since week three.

So it's really all in the Knicks right now to get the city moving.

It's funny you say that because now I just have my car set to 880 radio, ESPN Radio in New York, because it's allegedly the Mets flagship station, although they rarely talk about the Mets, but I just have it on in case.

And to hear the hosts talk about football is just, it's they're so miserable about everything and so angry about it.

They don't even want, they audibly are like, can we talk about any other teams in the NFL except for the Jets and Giants?

I didn't realize it was that bad, but it's fun.

All right, Ian Begley, SNY, the best.

Thank you, sir.

Zach, appreciate you.

Talk to you soon.

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All right, enough trade talk.

Let's talk some hoops.

Mo Takil, all over the internet, former video coordinator for the Spurs and the Clippers.

How you doing, sir?

I'm doing great, Zach.

I'm doing great.

What do you got there?

Is that Hennessy?

Is that any Hennessy in there?

I have a...

This is my announcement.

I'm here to sponsor.

No, this is my lovely second cup of tea this morning.

Ready to roll right now.

You know, I can't get angry.

I can't get angry at it.

I can't get angry.

My rage has to be reserved for real things.

It was corny.

The ad was corny.

The shirt was corny.

Using the decision was corny.

Because you know, a certain segment of the population is going to get pan.

Like, the ticket prices went up.

People were thinking he's going to announce his retirement and do the tour.

I

got some intel.

I double-checked because I'm like, look, if he, I just, I know immediately I was like, this is not going to be a retirement.

It's going to be an ad.

But just in case, I lined up a few special guests, just in case, because I got to prepare.

Got to prepare.

So, like, not a big deal.

Not mad about it.

But, like, the decision was a seminal moment in sports history.

Just lame.

Just a little lame.

I'm not going to, I'm not going to boycott Hennessy.

I'm not going to yell and scream.

I already forgot about it.

Just a little bit corny.

It's, it's funny, Zach, because I literally the whole way through it was like, it's an ad.

I don't care.

Whatever.

This is going to be nothing, any of that stuff.

Not going to worry about it.

And then morning of started to get text messages of things being lined up of, like, hey, if this is a retirement, can you do this?

Can you jump on this?

Can you be aware?

Be right.

And I was like, oh, like, maybe this is something or whatever.

And then lo and behold,

I get a text message.

It's a Hennessy ad.

We're done.

Don't worry.

Like,

nothing doing.

The only good news is I had a murderer's row of guests ready to go.

And now they've pre-committed.

So they're in now.

They can't back out when it happens.

Okay.

You're ready to roll.

I'll say this.

I got a text message last night, my wife and I, from a friend of ours who was irate about it.

And I just said, look, man, like, you know, it's, it, you had to know this was more likely an ad.

It was also Amazon Prime Day.

That was my biggest, more, biggest shock was I was expecting it to be Amazon, not Hennessy.

Look, if you bought jacked up tickets to the Lakers finale, that's on you.

Like, sorry about that.

Okay, so on Monday, I did my five most confusing teams podcast that I do every year with John Hollinger, and he picked the Spurs as one of his nominees.

I said, I didn't pick the Spurs because I want to do a whole entire deep dive just separately on the Spurs.

They are the single most interesting team in the league, both this season and beyond for me, for the most obvious possible reason.

They have Victor Wemidyama, who is now listed at 7-5, hung out with some monks, hung out, according to my guy, guy Michael Reidy DSPM with Akeem Alajuan did the Alajuan post-up pilgrimage over the summer absolutely terrifying stuff all around like for the rest of the league um and I wanted to do a segment so we're doing it right now with you and I watched this was my preparation I went back I vowed to do this I watched every pick and roll the Spurs ran with Fox and Wembanyama on the floor.

Not just their pick and rolls, but every pick and roll that happened while they were on the floor because I was like, what did this look like?

What was happening?

I need to inform myself about how this looked to refresh my memory.

And so now I'm ready to go.

The San Antonio Spurs, their over-under is 44.5.

You and I in July were both on this podcast saying we are super high on the Spurs.

I have said Fox extension, it's big.

I got no qualms.

I got no qualms.

You got to do something to win now.

This dude is too good to sit and wait for Castle and Harper, etc.

I'm happy to sit and wait for them as they develop, but I need to win now.

Maybe they can help us win though.

We'll see.

Two months later, do you feel the same way?

How have you felt watching you watched Harper in Summer League?

Fox now has this hamstring thing that I'm hearing is probably going to be fine, but he might miss a couple games.

We don't know.

How do you feel in the light of day?

Maybe not as high as I was in that July

conversation that we had where you know i was exuberant i would say i think you know maybe that's kind of tempered down as we've gotten closer to the season and i kind of sit down and and look at things a little bit more but i'm still rolling with them i'm still with them and the i think this is a at the very least a play-in team assuming and let's just get it out of the way assuming wemby plays the whole season right like i just want to that's my whole caveat right there that's my thinking if he plays the whole season at the very least they're going to be a play-in team with with just him.

And I think I like what they have.

I'm excited to see this Fox-Wemby pick and roll pairing and how it kind of plays out across the board.

I'm excited for really full year Mitch Johnson year one

because I want to see what that looks like.

You know, you kind of come into a weird situation for him

with taking over for pop, you know, early last season.

I think it was like around mid-November, but you never really get to put in your own stamp on the team.

And I think now he gets to.

I'm excited to see what all that looks like with this team.

And I'm still pretty high on them for what they have this season.

Maybe have just adjusted a little more properly in terms of my exuberance.

Yeah, that line feels right to me.

That's a big number for a team that really hasn't achieved much in the Wemby era, partly because he missed with the most half of last season, whatever it was, with the deep vein.

Thumbrosis that thankfully has passed.

Let's review the rotation before we get into it.

Starting five went healthy.

Fox,

Castle, rookie of the year.

Vassell,

Harrison Barnes, just still around.

And Wembanyama.

Bench,

I'm going to just say Harper,

Keldon Johnson, Jeremy Sohan, some combination of Luke Cornette, great signing.

Kelly Olinik, nice pickup.

Both of those guys can and will play a little bit with Wembanyama too.

Then I got Carter Bryant.

Is he ready?

He's definitely ready on defense.

The guy is freaking scary on defense.

And then I think Jordan McLaughlin will play helpful minutes as another point guard on the team because the absence of CP3 is going to be felt a little bit.

I think Lindy Waters as a knockdown shooter could play some meaningful minutes for them because that's the biggest weakness the team has, I think, is their outside shooting.

Whatever the pick and roll combination is with the starters, whether it's Fox and Wembanyama, whether it's Vasel and Wembanyama, whether it's it's Wembanyama running inverted pick and rolls with either of them, which we have seen, opponents are just going to cram the lane and make guys shoot, even Harrison Barnes.

The other, I think, structural issue here, and why I'm really excited for the Fox-Wemby combo, is

how often teams are going to continue to put their centers on anybody that's not Wembanyama.

It could be Castle,

it could be Barnes, it will be Sohan when Sohan is in the game.

And the gambit there is obviously the dream, and not every team is constructed to do this, is put big

wing on Fox, big wing on Wembanyama, switch any two-man game between them and say, beat us.

Beat us in the post.

If you're Wemby, can you do it?

You can do it against a point guard, but can you do it against a wing?

Fox, beat us on a switch.

You can do it if it's a center.

You can roast that dude.

Can you do it if it's a wing?

And that's that's when the Elajuan stuff, the added strength stuff becomes super interesting to me.

And obviously, defense is not going to be able to get there every time.

Centers are going to get stuck on Wemby, and then it's just full bore.

Let's go pick and roll.

Yeah, you might want to go under on Fox the first time.

We'll run it again.

You won't be able to go under as easily.

We'll disguise it.

Vasel flies up from a corner, whatever.

I don't know, man.

The lack of shooting is a real thing.

I just cannot wait to see Fox and Wembenyama together because I think

Fox is not a great passer.

He's just a good passer.

You could see him learning the rhythms with Wembanyama.

When I watched the film,

it was just glaringly obvious that Chris Paul is a better passer and a more daring and confident passer than Fox.

But you could see Fox start to pick up the rhythm of Wemby's rolls to the rim, his footwork, when the lob is there versus the floater.

More reps.

I just, I'm putting no ceiling on Wembanyama, so I can't wait to see it.

I don't know what it nets out to.

That's my preamble.

What do you think of all that?

Yeah, I think there's an important thing to understand: like, we talk about team chemistry all the time.

I don't think people understand pick and roll chemistry and how much that really matters.

It's like a quarterback with a receiver, right?

Like, there's always a quarterback that has their favorite receiver who they go to all the time, who they're kind of locked in on.

And it's something that, look, Fox didn't have any chance to really develop that with Wemby in the five games that they played together.

Like, there was just, there's just not enough time.

There's not even enough practice time in the schedule for that.

So like just off that, I think that gets improved, you know, with

where they're at with a full season training camp and everything behind them.

I think that improves naturally on its own without having to do much.

And then I think it gets interesting in terms of what wrinkles will they throw in?

You know, and that's the stuff I want to see where I'm really curious.

Like I went through a bunch of the pick and rolls.

I don't think as many as you did, but there was one that really stood out to me between Fox and Wemby.

And it's one of my favorite things that I don't think a lot of teams do a ton of.

It's the deep corner pick and roll.

Because that's a really difficult one to defend, even if you're just going to switch it.

Because with it being deep, and they ran it against the Magic.

It was

a fluke play.

It wasn't something that was designed, but it'd end up in a scenario where Wemby comes to set the screen and Fox just gets an easy layup off the magic, who is a very stingy defense.

And I felt like, okay, that's something that they could try to find a way to engineer a little bit more of with that.

But that's like a rarity.

You're not going to spam it.

You're not going to run that 25 times in a game.

I think finding the different combinations and sometimes, like you said, Wemby not in the pick and roll, but have him in the dunker spot.

Like, that's going to cause problems, right?

Just with his size and his, I mean, he's, you said it.

He's already, he's 7'5.

He grew two inches.

That's not even fair.

But he's already bigger now.

And now you're in this situation where, like, just put him in different spots.

And I think it creates a little more challenge for teams with what they have.

The shooting absolutely is going to be a problem.

Like, there's just no question.

They're going to pack

the paint and they're going to have to knock down shots.

You know, you're not going to get, they just finished their preseason game last night.

You're not going to get five of seven from

Justin, excuse me, Julian Champeny.

I should have mentioned him.

He's an important player for their team because he's a knockdown shooter.

Yeah.

But

you can't just say, we're going to get that on a regular basis, right?

Like, that's a crazy number.

But they have to get and create open looks.

And the other thing I noticed a lot in their pick and rolls, and this is where teams are just going to dare them, they're selling out on the rolls, and it's leading to a lot of open kickout threes.

That's going to be a big shot for them.

They have to knock down the open threes on those kickouts.

You mentioned corner pick and rolls, empty side pick and rolls.

Just a general way to

make up for your lack of spacing is: A, play fast.

And I think like there were a lot of Fox Wembanyama off-misses pick and rolls, like 20 on the shot clock, step up screen.

And like, you can't set up for that.

You can't get the help ready for that.

But also, like, bring Fox up from the corner for like a handoff.

Bring them off a screen from Vesselle.

That makes them think about that.

And then bring Vessella.

Like, there's just bring Vassell around for a pick and roll.

Wemby.

There's a lot they can do with just speed and variety.

And you mentioned the Dunker Spot.

Look, like, Wembinyama is going to be

very soon one of the five best players in the league.

Like, maybe within 10 games, like, okay, yeah, he's there.

He's going to be the best player in the league at some point in his career.

You don't necessarily think about Dunker Spot for that guy, but one of the reasons I really like the Fox acquisition that jumped off the screen is he gives them another one-on-one creator that really they just did not have last year.

And so you saw clips of like Fox hunting Jordan Poole, Fox hunting Trey Young, Fox getting center switched onto him, and he can roast all those guys.

He can bully the littler guards.

And then when he gets into the lane, you have that dude in the dunker spot.

You just throw it up to him, and it's two points.

And I think they can scrounge buckets off that in a way using Fox that they just did not have on their team before him.

Yeah, I mean, I just think about, you know,

even if it's something where it's when he's playing with Sohan, right?

It's a, and Sohan sets the screen.

It's the short roll.

It's the, the, Sohan's a good passer.

They're going to be able to find that stuff.

There's, there's a lot of areas where they could do it.

I just don't want them to just get stuck on, and I, even though I've been partially guilty of this, stuck on just the Fox Wemby pick and roll, right?

Like, I think there's ways to move him around the chessboard that puts them in pieces, that puts them in positions where they're going to be like, okay, you're going to do this, you're going to suck in, you're going to take away all this in the paint.

Good luck.

He's 7.5.

And it's long.

It's a long 7.5.

Like that catch radius, that wingspan, all of that.

We're just going to throw it up and we're going to bet our guy can get to it and your guy can't.

And I think

we've got to go catch diameter.

on Wemby instead of catch radius.

It's too big.

The other thing is they're going to pay a lot of attention to their spacing.

So if you look at their pick and rolls, you will see a lot of times, if it's a Fox Wemby pick and roll, center of the floor, you will see weak side corner, Devin Vessell, only guy on the weak side, because that's where defenses are trained to help from.

So they'll put Castle on the strong side near the ball and Barnes, they can move around a little bit.

Whatever the weakest shooter is, they'll put him strong side and complicate to help a little bit.

It's a real thing, the lack of shooting, but there's ways around it.

And

I like like the big guys they brought off the bench.

The wild card is

both now and medium term, the Fox, Harper, Castle trio.

Castle, I think, is just like permanent fixture of the franchise, rookie of the year, not as ball-dominant as Harper and Fox are.

This is, to me, not a problem.

Like, I'm happy to have all three of these guys on the team right now.

I could see it in two years or three years being like, all right, we do have to make a decision between Fox and Harper.

I really like Harper.

Harper has got a lot of craft and power to his game, a lot of feel.

Defensively, he could be really, really good.

He's got a lot of tools.

I don't know, like, most rookies are not super ready to help their teams win games at a high level.

So that makes me a little nervous that they're going to be counting on him off the bench a lot and perhaps Bryant off the bench a lot.

But I would like to stagger the Harper Fox minutes almost as dramatically as possible.

But he's got the kind of game, and they can, like, especially if you stagger Wemby and Fox.

And so Harper gets to play with Wemby in those minutes.

He's got the kind of game where I could at least see him being like a neutral-ish presence as a rookie.

But I don't know what you thought of him in college or in summer league.

I think he was a no-brainer pick for them.

I really like his fit for the team.

The Fox one, like

Fox is a better off-ball player than Harper.

He's a better spot-up shooter.

He actually snuck in some good cuts like down the slot for the Spurs.

But

Harper, I don't know what his off-ball game is going to look like.

They're going to work with that him.

But how do you see those three guards sort of fitting together?

Yeah, first, I think you're right with the Castle scenario.

You know, not nearly as ball-dominant.

I think he's more of a second-side kind of guy, more of a let me, you know, cut in the right actions and things like that.

And I think you're going, and I'm, and I'm high on Castle in that regard, where he can just be your secondary playmaker.

The challenge does come with Fox and Harper.

And I like Harper.

I'm not a massive college basketball guy, so I didn't watch a ton of him in college, kind of catching up on him and cramming more than anything else at Summer League and to this point.

When he hadn't played for a few months in Summer League.

Summer League is such a hard way to gauge a player

in all those scenarios and what the team construction.

It's a conversation for another time, but figuring out

how he fits fits with this team, I think it's a great problem to have two or three years from now, right?

I think it's like you lined up at the beginning when you were talking about the team, the overview, right?

Need to win now.

You're going to play Fox a ton more.

But now at the same time, you can kind of bring along Harper a little bit slowly.

Like it's not urgent to the point where it's like, this guy has to hit right now.

You know, he can have a,

hey, come off the bench.

When Fox goes to the bench.

I like the idea of pairing him with Wemby.

You know, when Wemby goes to the bench the first and bring him in with Wemby when he comes back and let Fox get his rest.

I like that idea of let him kind of get that experimentation with Wemby and work through that stuff in the pick and roll.

And let's, and they got to get the information and the data point.

Let's see what that looks like.

How does that play together?

And I think that's going to be the important thing for them to take a look at and explore with what they have.

I think it's going to work out.

Mainly the other side of it is because he's so good defensively.

And I think that's where it's like, that's where he's going to earn his minutes.

Because the one thing you don't want is his coming in, struggle on offense, and then give up points on the other end.

You know, the NBA is a little bit obviously different than college.

He's going to have to learn, but I think it's a good opportunity for him to be in.

And then two or three years from now, when it's a decision-making time, it's a good position to be in if you're the Spurs.

A lot of this really comes down to

I just don't think it's possible to be too high on Wenbanyama.

And I'm just talking about this season.

I mean, I'm not talking about give him a couple years.

Like,

I've listened and read some stuff about, like, well, he could be, if all things go right, he could be in the MVP conversation this year.

He's going to be in the MVP conversation this year if he's healthy.

The two caveats with the Spurs that cut separately are: number one,

obviously, if Wembanyama misses half the season or whatever,

it's sunk for them.

Number two,

and what we're not going to talk much about today is they got all the ammo they need if they're better than expected to make a win-now trade of almost any ilk from role player to other star.

But as far as Wemby, like he's the best defensive player in the NBA now,

and I just think

he is

he's going to be like nothing we have ever seen defensively.

It's like playing with six guys, having him on the team.

And I think offensively, what he did last year, what did he average, like 23 a game, something like that?

Yeah.

Taking too many threes, not having the level of teammates that he's going to have this year, particularly a guy like Fox who can break down a defense in different ways, and being lighter and less polished in the post.

I just think...

I think he's going to be in the MVP conversation now.

Not

win it, because I just don't think the Spurs will be good good enough.

But

like Bill and I were doing our ringer 100 rankings, and we did a podcast about it.

We didn't end up talking about it, but he wanted to know where I had Wembanyama and if Wembanyama finishes as the fifth best player in the league this season, because the top four is Shea, Jokic, Giannis, Luca.

That's a hard top four to crack.

Who would he knock out?

And he had Edwards as fifth, Anthony Edwards.

I'm like, I think Wemby

is going to be better than Edwards by the end of the season.

Like, I just, I just, I can't put a ceiling on him.

If you told me he averaged 28, 14,

5 blocks, two steals, and wins defense player of the year, and opponent shoot 45% at the rim against it.

That seems completely believable.

Yeah, no, and it's the other thing, too, because, you know, reading the great article from Mike Wright, you know, and also Jared Weiss with the athletic, like the, there's one thing, the common theme about it is Wemby wants it.

Wemby is hungry for it.

I don't even want to say hungry, angry for it.

Like he is like demanding in a way of like, this is what he wants.

This is why he goes to a Shaolin temple and

wakes up at 4.30 in the morning

and learns kung fu, you know, and then you know, works with Hakeem.

And then like, and even the conversation, I don't want to spoil too much of Mike's article.

Everybody should go read it.

you know but like the conversation where Hakeem's like you already have everything he's like no I need to know everything.

Like that kind of desire and hunger, like that propels you in a certain way where I think it puts him in the conversation now.

And I'm with you on the, I don't know if he'll be better than Ant because I actually want to see what Ant's low-post game looks like now.

But I think there's a conversation to be had where it's like, yeah, he's going to be in the mix.

We're going to be talking about him on a nightly basis where it's just like, the hell did he just do?

You know, the, the, you know, the five by five game, you know, quad, I'm putting it out there.

He's going to, I think he's going to get a quadruple double.

You know, we've only had four in the NBA.

I think he's going to get one and make it five.

And I think he's going to have more than one through the course of his career.

Like, I just think we're in a situation where

there is no limit to put on him.

You know, and I think he understands

how much he, like, how, I mean,

he wants it so damn bad, Zach.

Like, you can feel it in the way he's doing things and in the way he trained and everything that he's done this offseason.

Like,

how do you, how do you not project that with already what we've seen from him?

Like, how do you not think he's going to be one of the best players in the NBA this season?

Look, just zeroing in on the film I watched of the Fox minutes,

if we get to a point, and it could be right off the bat, based on how he's looked in preseason, and this is a specific game and a specific matchup I'm talking about from last season.

If we get to the point where like DeAndre Hunter is on him, that type of wing, and he just puts DeAndre Hunter in the basket, that's an emergency for the entire league because then that option is over and you have to swarm him.

And yeah, you're going to make guys make shots, but the shots are going to get easier, the drives are going to get easier because the DeAndre, and you got to play faster, right?

Because entering the post takes time, and you don't want to enter it to Victor Wembanyama against a guy like that with four on the shot clock when he just has to take a fadeaway jumper.

But if he turns that into a like, oh, you're just a mosquito, get out of my way, that is a crisis for everybody.

And I think we're going to get like, it's never going to be automatic like that, but I think he's going to have a much better time scoring against that kind of matchup in the post than he did last year.

And he's going to be smarter about like, give it up on a switch, burrow deeper in, give it back to me here than he was last year.

And Fox will get better finding him on the pick and roll.

Like, there were a couple, there were a lot where Fox would turn the corner, Wemby would be rolling, and Fox would pick up his dribble early and whip that pass to the right corner.

And you're like, that's a good pass.

That dude's open.

On the Kings, that was a great pass.

On this team, keep your dribble alive a little longer and try to find the 7'5 dude going down the lane.

I think, I just, I couldn't be more.

Like, again, 44 and a half feels like a good line.

I'm not 50 wins.

I'm not like no top four,

but there's a top, there's a 5-6 seed upside here and a play-in floor.

And

I just, Wemby, I just can't wait.

I cannot wait.

To piggyback on your Fox point, if Fox masters the probe dribble or the Nash dribble, whatever you want to call it, like, then that opens everything up.

Because even if it's not available on the first time, on the first part of the roll, when he goes, you know, say Fox just goes through the lane, just throw it back up because Wemby's right there.

He's at the rim at that point.

And I will bet,

I will take the bet all the time: like,

Wemby's going to get it before you get it, before

the defense can get to it.

Just put it up there.

And I think even just a probe dribble and it being late, like that's the luxury of having a guy like Victor Webb and Yama on the roll is like, it could even be late, and you're still going to probably get it if you put it in the right spot for him.

So then there's going to be some nuance where Fox is going to have to learn.

And it goes back to that pick and roll chemistry of where can I put it for for him and where do we go?

You know, the funny, the fun part of the first, the rookie season of Web Benyama was the Spurs players trying to figure out how high can we throw this?

You know, and you would see it, and this was, you know, Pop would say it on, you'd see him on the sideline go nuts.

You know, they'd have

somebody would be fronting him and they would throw the pass too low and it'd get stolen.

And you would just see Pop going, like, no, just look how big he is.

Just throw it, throw it up.

You know, and I, I was about to curse in the way Pop would, but like, you know, just put it, just put it in the fucking air.

You know, just put it up.

He'll go get it.

You'd rather it go out of bounds and sail over Wemby's head than just throw it too low.

So, you know, I think that's the stuff Fox has to learn.

And I think that's what they're going to figure out.

And I think that's what they got to.

That's the stuff I'm excited for for this season with watching the Spurs team.

And I can't wait.

You know, as soon as Fox gets back on the floor, I just want to see it right away.

Bottom line,

they're young in the back court.

Shooting is going to be an issue.

The West is the West.

There's a world in which they go 41 and 41, 38 and 44, whatever.

Fox is already missing time in the preseason.

If Fox and Wembanyama are healthy for 65 to 75 games apiece,

the Spurs were already good last last year when Wembayama was on the floor with any of their core players, basically.

Like Wemby plus CP, they were plus seven almost per hundred possessions.

I also think there's an upside scenario where they are 47 and 35, 48 and 34, where you're like, oh, that seems surprising.

And then we get to the end of the season.

It's like, no, he's just that good.

So we'll see.

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Okay, now we're going to switch gears, Mo.

This is an NBA podcast.

I talk about every NBA team,

including the Dregs, because I love the Dregs.

We love the Dregs.

We're curious about things on the Dregs.

I was up last night watching Nets Wizards Summer League footage to prepare for this because I care about you, Washington Wizards fans.

Brooklyn Nets fans, are you there?

I know some of you are there because people are at Barclay Center and not all of them are wearing jerseys from the other teams.

We're going to talk about reasons to watch the dregs.

I classified four teams as the dregs: Brooklyn, Washington, Charlotte, which is which is only a semi-dreg.

It's knocking on the ceiling of not being a dreg, and Utah.

I will give you first pick.

Who do you want to talk about?

Let's just go to Brooklyn right away.

Okay.

Would you like to start?

Yeah, sorry.

I didn't know if you wanted to start or if you wanted me to go.

I am a huge fan of Jordi Fernandez as a coach.

I thought he did.

He needs some Hennessy, by the way.

I hope he's got some Hennessy on it.

It's going to be.

But I thought that, listen, going into last season,

this is going to be the worst team in the NBA.

They're trying to tank.

They made the trade Mikael Bridges, got all their picks back, makes a lot of sense.

We're going to be awful.

And then Jordy Fernandez just just went, uh-uh.

I'm not going to allow that

on my watch.

And he coached his ass off with a team.

I mean, there were games where

they literally had nobody on the floor.

I mean, you know, it was all G-leaguers.

There was

brutal nights where they had injuries left and right, and nobody was available.

And

he coached his ass off, and he puts these guys in the right spots.

And unfortunately, on some nights, these guys just can't make the play that he needs them to make.

But he's doing a great job with where they need to be.

And now you look at it with, look, they make the trade for Michael Porter Jr.

And now it's an opportunity for him to say, hey, ball's in your hand.

You are a role player with the nuggets.

Here we need you to be a star.

It's not going to be, it's not that different from Mikhail Bridges going from Phoenix to the Nets and then getting the ball in his hands.

And let's see what kind of player he's going to be.

I mean, your favorite player, Cam Thomas, is going to be

your best friend.

You know, but the

Cam Thomas has a lot on the line this season.

So, you know, he's going to come out.

There's going to be some nights where he's just going to drop 40, you know, and go nuts in that stuff.

Like, there's fun stuff to watch with this squad, and then to see what happens with, you know, drafting three playmakers.

What do we have with these guys?

And experimenting and exploring with those guys.

You know, it's maybe a little bit redundant in my opinion of the draft they had of just kind of drafting the same guy over and over again.

But now we're going to see which one of these guys is going to stick.

Like it's an interesting position to be in.

Like there's stuff to watch there.

It's nice to Michael Porter Jr.

that you said the Nets traded for Michael Porter Jr.

when they really traded for Denver's unprotected first-round pick in whatever year it was.

And they got Michael Porter Jr.

and the Michael Porter Jr.

podcast podcast experience as part of the trade.

I wasn't going to mention the podcast experience.

I was going to leave that one alone.

It's been quite a ride.

Yes.

And they do have this weird sort of mismatched

half roster versus another half roster of like, I think, look, I don't, if you ask me who their starting five is, I can get to three because it's going to be Cam Thomas, Michael Porter Jr., and Nick Claxton, who are veteran-ish guys who are like competent NBA players to very good NBA players.

And then you have these other veterans of Haywood High Smith, who's a little injured right now, and Terrence Mann, who would probably come off the bench.

I don't think you want to give them starting spots.

And then you have just this

pile of complete wildcard unknowns,

all of whom are going to have to handle the ball a lot.

And that's what makes me sort of nervous that, I mean, their over-under is like 20 and a half, which is very low.

But I just, like once one of those veterans like cam thomas or michael border jr comes off the floor and the mpj is not really a shot creator for others anyway ball handler whatever

or will they trade one of those guys at some point who knows i just like you hand the ball to traori saraf uh

Yaegor Joman, I think is how you pronounce it.

By the way, I watched two separate videos of Yaegor Joman educating people how to pronounce his last name, first at BYU and then with the Nets.

And there were different pronunciations.

One was Demon or Demon, and one was Joman.

And he,

I, so, like, I'm going Joman because that was the Nets one.

Um,

like, there's just Kobe Bufkin.

There's just gonna be none of these guys can shoot.

None of them are ready to be ball handlers at this level.

They're all gonna turn it over a ton.

They're all big and interesting, and Danny Wolf will handle the ball some too, but like creating offense for this team is gonna be ugly at times.

Interesting, but ugly.

And like all those guys are interesting.

Like Sarafa is a little craftier than I thought with his left hand and spin moves and stuff.

Joman is dealing with some planar fishitis right now, so he's sort of TBD.

Chari's more of a defense first guy.

Drake Powell, they also drafted.

We didn't see him much in summer league.

Danny Wolfe's interesting.

I mean, how interesting?

I think defensively, it's going to be, can he hang in in the NBA?

But they did play him at the four more than I thought in summer league.

And

he can bring the ball up.

He can pass.

Their highlight of summer league, by the way, was Danny Wolfe is such an audacious passer that he threw a no-look pass that hit Drew Timmy in the face because Drew Timmy wasn't looking for it under the basket.

Drew Timmy can play, by the way.

Yes.

He had a solid summer league.

But like at the four,

Danny Wolfe can't beat fours off the dribble, can't really bully him in the post.

At the five, he's kind of a defensive liability.

teams will cross match i don't like it's just there's a lot here

it's kind of i don't know i the young guys i'm excited for the young guys i just it's people need to prepare for like a lot of turnovers a lot of turnovers the basketball itself at times is not going to be pretty and it wasn't pretty last season right like there's a level of like it's not going to be something where you're going to look at and say like oh man that's good basketball they they they you know it's there's going to be a lot of turnovers that's part of having such a young team and so many ball handlers that are all, I mean, a good number of them being rookies.

Like, all of that is going to play into it.

And that's what's going to make it a little bit challenging.

But there's, again, just the Cam Thomas experience is worth looking at and seeing how that kind of plays out.

I mean, again, like, some of these guys are fun to watch.

Danny Wolf is fun to watch.

I just, like, what position is he going to play?

Who's going to be guarding him on the other end?

They're going to put wings on him and centers on whoever they want to put the centers on.

How do all these point guards coexist?

Because not only do you have them all, two or three of them are going to be playing at a time.

Can anyone cut?

Can they play with pace?

All of that.

The good news for them is they have a million draft picks still coming to them.

The interesting subplot for them is they do not control their 2027 pick.

That goes to the Rockets in a swap.

That sort of like you, do they want to hit the gas at some point because of that this coming summer?

And this will be a fact-finding mission this season.

They'll probably trade at least one or two veterans along the way.

These kids all showed some interesting stuff, but the lack of shooting and

the lack of sort of blow-by speed other than Trayori, whose lack of shooting is sort of compromises his speed because guys just play off him.

It's just, I don't know what the hell this is going to amount to.

Any other Brooklyn thoughts?

Is De-Ron Sharp, incredible offensive rebounder?

I like De-Ron Sharp.

Yeah, and Clowney, is Clowney going to be anything?

I kind of like the glimpses of Clowney as a corner three-point shooter, spot-up guy, a pick-and-pop guy, but how are we getting in minutes with all these guys?

Yeah, it gets hard in that stuff.

You know, the other thing I'm just

not so probably not fair, but like, I am just curious to see how Claxon's seasons goes and what happens.

Because like, to me, I think he'd be a guy that teams might be calling about.

But I think that's going to be an interesting one with where that ends up for them when you talk about veteran guys that they might move.

And I think that's maybe like a tiny sublot.

Doesn't help us into why do you want to watch this team, but I think there's just going to be a lot of fun.

It's going to be fun, just enjoy the ride, it's going to be exciting.

I think it's going to be a fast-paced team.

Just enjoy the ride at this point.

Klax is a very good player and a very good selfless teammate,

positive spirit, and yet just inevitably

gets ground down by everything else going on around him.

And as a result, becomes a fun guy to keep your eye on off the ball because there'll be past times when he's open.

He doesn't get it, times when someone takes a crazy shot, and you can just see him being like, oh, my God.

Again.

All right, I got to run back on defense again.

All right.

All right.

I'm going to let you keep picking.

Washington and Charlotte, Utah.

Let's just take the one Western Conference team out of

the way right now.

Let's just go Utah.

Okay?

Because I don't have much.

I just think, you know, I like that they cleared the deck for Ace Bailey, for Clayton Jr.

Like, I like that, hey, we're going to give it to these guys.

We're going to let them go.

I'm going to keep harping.

I love Will Hardy as a coach, you know, fellow Spurs guy.

Like, I appreciate, you know, the stuff he's doing.

I'm excited for Laurie Marketing because I'm probably one of the few people who was, like, into Euro basket.

and was like paying attention to a lot of that stuff.

And I thought he had a great Euro basket that I think is going to carry over.

Don't forget, when the Laurie Markin Renaissance began in Utah, it was coming off of a Euro basket.

And it was, I think, Will Hardy's first season as a coach as well.

And I think there's a lot of that stuff.

I feel like we're going to get that resurgence from him.

And I feel like there's going to be a lot of fun stuff with what they have going.

But I just love that they cleared the way for their young guys.

Hey, no more

Clarkson, Sexton, Collins.

Yeah, all those, like, we're going into the young guy direction.

Let's Let's go.

Let's see what we have.

And I'm, and, and I'm excited for it.

I mean, Ace Bailey, I think, has a chance to be pretty good.

Like, I'm excited to see where we go with all this stuff.

And, and that's where I'm at with the jazz.

I mean, if you asked me to project, like, the guard minutes on this team, like, I, good fucking luck.

I have no, the best I can do is they're going to start Marketing and Kessler.

Two years ago, that was a very good combination for them.

Since then, I think it's more about the surrounding talent than them.

I think Collier probably earned a shot to be the starting one just based on his passing acumen.

His lack of scoring ability is

an obstacle, but surrounded by better players like Markinen and Kessler actually have them play.

Maybe that helps.

If you look at pick and roll numbers on tracking data, they can sort it for like if you like

the percentage of times the ball handler shoots on a pick and roll, Collier is one of the four or five lowest in the league.

And like, that's nice.

He's selfless and all that.

He needs to be more of a scoring threat.

Other than that, like the number, the minutes at the two and the three, like,

are they going to start Ace Bailey right away?

Does Cody Williams have anything to provide?

Clayton Jr.

is here.

Hendrix, I really loved before that leg injury.

I'm really happy he's back.

I would probably just start him if he's healthy because I know I'm going to get some defensive intensity and pace out of him.

You know, there's just tons of guys here.

Like, Senseibaugh, can I get minutes from him?

Filipowski, can he play back up five or do I have to play Nurkic?

I like Filipowski.

I had Filipowski's second team all-rookie last year.

I don't think he made it, but he made my fake ballot.

He had a nice little summer league, too.

Like, there were runs where I was watching him in Summer League going, like, yo,

this might be a guy that legitimately needs to get more minutes

in Utah.

Like, there's a legitimate player here in what we have.

And, like, let's give him those opportunities.

They have a mixed

mosh.

I don't know if I'm saying the word, but like mosh, mish, mosh, mosh, mish.

Yeah, whatever, you know, they have a whole collection of talent that I think they have to sort through what do they have.

And I think that's really where they, you know, and and who's one of our guys?

Who are guys that we need to kind of look on?

They have veteran guys.

Look, they have my guy, George Niang,

the, the, the G-Wagon.

You know, they brought, they have Kevin Lutt, like they have a bunch of guys where I'm like, all right, we don't, I don't know, they're not long-term guys, but like, are they going to get minutes?

Where are we going to put these guys?

You know, like, I want to see what they have, and particularly the young guys.

And that's the stuff I want to watch more this season with them is I want to, I want them to figure it out.

Hendrix,

hell of a, you know, like you said, great start of the season, gets injured, doesn't really.

We need to see what this is now.

How does he come back from the injury?

Can he continue

the trajectory he was going on, or is it going to be altered a little bit?

Like, I just want to see what they got.

It's interesting when we talk about these teams.

You know, the lottery has become so much more unpredictable now with the new odds, which I generally think is a good thing.

Utah, I mean, I heard Ryan Smith was like

bereft when the lottery happened last year and the Jazz ended up, what, fifth?

Lowest they could possibly get.

It is going to be interesting to see.

as these teams sort of digest it like, yeah, being the worst team is like not as valuable as it used to be.

Plus, there are fewer teams in this bucket this year than there have been.

I would hope these teams would just be like, yeah, let's just be a little bit more competitive.

We don't have to like actually manipulate things this much, despite the fact that these top three guys in this draft are

supposed to be incredible between Peterson, De Bensa, and

Boozer.

Yeah, like that said,

I don't really want to see, I like all of these guys.

I love them all, actually.

I know two of them personally.

I don't know the third.

I don't want to see Kyle Anderson, Kevin Love, or George Yang on the floor.

I just don't.

I got enough young guys, and those guys aren't going to help me be super competitive anyway.

Slomo is the closest one, I think, to helping.

I just, I don't want to see them or Nerck.

I just want to see everybody else when I watch this team.

30th in defense last year for the Jazz.

Let's pick that up a little bit.

What do you think of Kessler?

You know,

it's been reported already.

Tony Jones broke the story at the Athletic that they broke off extension talks early.

I think he was asking for a lot from what I've heard, and the Jazz have a ton of cap space and just decided we're going to prioritize our cap space.

You know, he's been in all these rumors, like how many picks are the Lakers going to give up for him and this and that.

And then they get Aiton.

Like, I think Kessler's good.

He's a very good rim defender.

He's a decent role man.

He's flashed a little bit of feel on offense, but it hasn't quite materialized into like, like, you know, they've tried to make him a fake three-point shooter.

That hasn't happened.

I don't know what to think of him.

I think he's fine.

I top out it like as fine for now.

Like, he's a starting big on a team.

Like, I don't know if he makes you a contender.

I mean, I think that all comes down to what you have around you with everything across the board.

But it was weird how like,

he had a big season, had, you know, big minutes, and then he kind of felt like he was almost an aftershot thought at one point, you know, where it was like, oh, wow, like they're really not playing him that much.

And that was, you know,

the trade rumors all of a suddenly started coming around.

And I was like, that's weird.

I thought he was a piece for them, at least in terms of like, big man solid.

You know, we know what we're going to get from you.

And then trying to be, hey, okay.

Shoot some three balls and things like it just didn't fit.

It's not who he is as a player.

Like, I don't, I like him.

I don't love him.

I feel like he's a guy that, you know, if I, if he's my starting center for a team, I'd be like, all right, like serviceable.

He can give us a good 25 to 30 minutes a game.

He's going to be a solid rim protector.

Like everything you said, roll man, all that stuff.

You know, there's going to be a good feel for that stuff.

You need those guys on your teams.

But I'm not like crazy about it.

And if he wants a big number of contract extension, I'm with the jazz.

Like, yeah, man, like, no, let's just see what the market says.

Led the league in offensive rebounding rate last year, too.

He's an incredible offensive rebounder.

You mentioned Markinen.

Austin Ainge name-checked me last week on Media Day or two weeks ago, whenever that was.

Not in a flattering way.

Because I had said on this podcast, I would be blown away if Lowry Markinen were on the jazz at the end of the season, hardly alone in that take, by the way.

But somehow the questioner mentioned me, so Austin mentioned me too.

I've made the joke before that he must must be like John Travolta in pulp fiction, just looking around like, what?

Who?

How did this happen to me?

These are the guys on my team now.

And Austin said, no, yeah, I don't know what Zach's talking about.

We want Lowry on the team long term.

He's part of our core, blah, blah.

That's cool.

You got to say what you got to say.

And maybe there's some truth to that in just this sense.

The competency level I talked about vis-a-vis the lottery odds, right, doesn't pay off to be super bad.

Certainly hurts morale.

And then all of these young guards

could really use marketing around both to be a creative hub so they don't have to do too much and to space the floor.

And I'm thinking mostly of Keontae George, who he's got something, Mo.

Like he'll throw passes, these like one-armed lefty lasers to the corner or go on a shot-making binge or stutter-step, hesitation, dribble into the lane for a floater.

Boy, does he take a lot of floaters?

Where you're like, there's something.

There's something.

He also shot 45% on twos, low 30s on threes, and is a massive, glaring defensive liability who just sort of wanders around sometimes.

If I'm keeping Marketen around, it's in part because he's got to rehabilitate his trade value after whatever we did last season.

The Finland stuff helped.

And in part because it's just beneficial for all of these young guards to have him.

Then the follow-up question is like, how long is that interesting to Lowry Markinen?

But I get what Austin is saying.

It's a tough position to be in, but I think, again,

it comes down to what you said.

How long can Laurie Markinen really kind of put up with this?

And I shouldn't say put up with it, but just

being.

He's in the middle of his prime and he has not appeared in a playoff game.

Yeah, like it's, it's, you know, you know, he's a competitor.

He wants to play in these, the playoffs.

He wants to show where he can be, you know, what he can be in this league.

And I think there's a lot of that stuff where it's like, cool, I get it.

But like, also, if he rehabs his value and you're a jazz team that's not going anywhere, you can't hold on to him.

And we've seen it too many times.

We've seen too many teams hold on to a guy too long for whatever reason.

And then when it comes time to they want to trade him, they get half of what they could have gotten for him a year or two earlier.

And I think that's the important thing there that the Jazz have to say, you know, have to kind of weigh when they're looking at all of this.

Where are we going and where's marketing going?

And like, how does that work for us?

Are we going to be competitive in a year or two?

No.

And that's part of why I just, Austin's got to say what he's got to say.

Like, if they actually got a really strong offer for Lowry Marketing, I just don't believe they're turning it down.

I just, I just don't see it.

But they already have a ton of picks, so who knows?

All right.

We're going to go now to the team that I'm actually most excited to watch of all of these teams.

I can't believe I'm saying this.

I'm really excited to watch the Wizards,

who were 30th in offense, 28th in defense, perilously close to what I call bobcatting, which is finishing 30th in both categories.

Shout out to the 7 and 59 Charlotte Bobcats of all those many years ago.

Pretty much bad at everything

last year.

And yet, when you talk about a starting five that is going to feature maybe

Bub Carrington, Kula Bali with less ball handling responsibilities, and Alex Sarr, who's super interesting.

Some people hate him.

Some people love him.

I'm in the like

boat with Alex Sarr.

I call him Mr.

Almost because he just is almost doing something good all the time.

Like, oh, that floater, oh, oh, he cut to the rim at the, oh, he missed again.

Mr.

Almost, good passer, defense, I believe.

In and then off the bench, Trey Johnson.

I might just start Trey Johnson right away.

I'm so excited.

Start him over Kiss Burt, start him over Bub.

I don't care.

I like Bubb's two-way ability.

We'll see if he can shoot well enough.

AJ Johnson, all I know is the dude is a freaking blur, and I can't wait to see what happens.

Will Riley flashed some stuff in summer league that's interesting.

Keyshawn George, I like.

Who am I forgetting?

I mean, there's just a bunch of interesting young guys here, and there's a little pop to them,

particularly Trey Johnson, who is a shot maker, a shot taker, but can move a little bit off the ball, has the goods to defend when he buys in.

There's just a lot to like here, but

it's fashionable to say they're a rebuilding team that hasn't found the guy yet.

Well, that's hard.

Finding the guy is hard.

You need a lottery luck.

You need a lottery luck in the right draft.

Maybe Trey Johnson is close to the guy.

Maybe Alex Sarr is not the guy, but maybe he's really good and you've got something.

But I don't know, man.

I'm excited to watch this team.

I'm interested in your take on Saar specifically.

Yeah, I mean, I think the calling in Mr.

Omos is probably the perfect sort of way to put it, you know, with him, because, but there's something there.

Like, it's, you, I just feel like it's all going to come together there, right?

You know, finished fourth in rookie of the year voting.

You know, the defense is there.

Like,

full stop.

Like, I'm, I'm, I think he's perfect for them defensively.

I think I like what he does.

You know, being where he needs to be, being at the spot, rim production.

He defended the second most shots at the rim per game last year.

Now he's uneven, but that's what 19 and 20 year olds do, but only Wemby defended more shots per game at the rim.

And he'll get better with that too, right?

Like he'll, as he develops, as he gets older, he'll have a better understanding of timing and things like that.

Like, I'm in on that end of the floor with him.

Can he put it together on the offensive end?

And I think that's where the almost stuff comes in, right?

Like, you you need that stuff to click because he, you can see it working in his mind, like the cut where, okay, that's a great cut, but he didn't finish the play, right?

So, it's like that last step, he's gotten all the way to the to the to the 10-yard line, but he can't get it to the end zone.

Like, it's that last step right there, and I think it's just going to happen where there's just going to be a click, a moment where all of a sudden we're going to be like, oh, now he's finishing that.

Once he finishes that, the people who hate him are going to at least move to the neutral or light column with him.

And I think there's a lot of, I think there's something there with that.

And they have to make sure, the Wizards have to make sure they invest in that.

And I think that's an important aspect of it.

They got a lot of young guys to invest in, but don't get,

and it's easy to lose a guy or two in the shuffle.

You can't lose Alex R in the shuffle for them because it's such a unique talent with what he can bring for them defensively.

And if he can click, get that stuff on the offensive end to come together.

And he just, just this season Zach he just needs to be 10% better on that end yeah the two the two most important players here are Trey Johnson and Alex Starr

I don't say that dismissively of anybody else I really like Keyshawn George I think I know what his best case NBA destiny is which is three and D guy with a little bit of ombal juice

Bilal Bilal Kulabali got off to a sensational start last year before he got hurt and then he sort of tailed off ended up shooting I think 28% on threes the shooting is going to be questionable I don't think he's ever going to be a 30-pick and rolls a game kind of guy, but if he can be an attack closeouts guy, make enough open threes and defend the hell out of people, number one defender, like guard the best guy on their team, great.

Bub Carrington, I think there's a pretty high level of variance for him.

Overall, I think he's going to be a rotation player.

A.J.

Johnson, total mystery.

I didn't even mention Cam Whitmore, who they just swiped from the Rockets.

Everyone's very excited for him.

I just hope he does not see this as an opportunity to go hog wild as a scorer.

I'd like to see him, I mean, he can really score, but I'd like to see him blend in a little bit.

But Saar,

the thing that makes me optimistic about Saar is that he sees the floor.

He maps the floor.

He has an understanding of where everything is, what the next rotation and the rotation behind that are going to be.

And you really see that when teams blitz the wizards in the pick and roll and he slips into open space, gets the ball, and has a four on three.

He's very comfortable as a decision maker.

He knows the passes.

He knows when to go for the finish.

Doesn't always finish.

And sometimes, like, Mr.

Almost is like, he makes a sensational spin move, and it's almost like his body is moving so fast that he's surprised where he ends up and misses a shot at the rim.

Eventually, he's going to make those shots and slow down.

Like, I, I'm on the higher end of Alexar.

I understand the skeptics.

Shoots a lot of threes.

That's fine.

I want him to become a pick and pop guy.

Like, I just, I I see a package there that's interesting to me.

Yeah, it's just got to come together.

And remember, he's 20.

Like, this is just, this is, he's just scratching the surface of really kind of figuring out what he can do physically.

Like, it's, it's, it's, he hasn't even matured physically to a large degree in terms of figuring out that stuff.

I think kind of running through the roster of all those guys, you know, and, and it's, it, it's, you're, it's him and it's Johnson.

And then it's everybody else.

I may be a little bit higher.

I might include Bilal Kulabali in that range where it's those three guys.

Yeah, no, I think he's a core guy.

And like Riley,

he's got to fill out positionally.

He looks kind of like a four, but we can see him swing around a little bit.

I don't know how much he's going to play this year, but he's got a template of something.

Like, he came off the bench in college for Illinois, but

he's got a template of something interesting to me.

A little bit of handle.

The three looks pretty good.

Like, there's a lot of interesting there.

Yeah,

I'm excited for the Wizards in the sense where it's like a few years ago, I would watch the Wizards just because they had nothing but weird games.

And shout out to Zach Harper because he's the one that pointed it out to me.

He's like, every Wizard game is weird.

And it was like, oh, wow.

Yeah.

Now I'm excited because I want to see the upward trajectory of a young team.

Like, that's what I want to see.

Like, this is an exciting time for a Washington Wizards fan because it's like you get to get on the ground floor of a band.

And then if they get good and everybody's like, oh, you could be like, I was on them when they, you know, when they were awful, you know, and I was watching these young guys develop.

Like, that's, this is the ground floor right now for what I hope will be for the Wizards to really start to rise in the East.

We didn't mention the veterans who are here.

CJ McCollum and Chris Middleton.

I think at least one of them is going to start just because you've got to start.

Those guys are starters in the league.

They're veterans.

They're here to mentor.

They'll make everybody's job easier.

I don't think both of them will start.

Both of them will play until they are bought out or traded.

Kisbert,

useful guy to have around, man.

I like Corey Kisbert.

He's on a good contract.

He's on a declining $13 million and change contract.

He can shoot.

He can move without the ball.

He can run you like a little bit of supplementary pick and roll

if you get him a head start, like get him come off one screen, come out of the corner.

If a team really made, like offered you some, like even if it ended up being like three second-round picks, I could see them moving him.

But I'm okay with him hanging around for now as long as he doesn't use too many possessions i'm okay with the shooter hanging around here you need some of that smarts you know and and some of that skills you need kind of that stuff you know it's it's the veteran presence from cj and and and chris you know having a guy like chrisbert out there who who can be a little bit more of like just high iq stuff because what happens when you have a guy that's a little bit high other guys can pick up on that And that's an important aspect of sort of, again, rising, moving along in the process.

And the younger guys will see like oh that's that's a smart cut he made maybe i need to do that or coach in film session going like let's just watch some of corey's film right here just because i want you to see the specific cut or how he moves into an open space and stuff and that stuff you can kind of work on in in the developments process yeah i mean if i had to pencil and i mean pencil in their starting lineup i put mccollum Bub Carrington, Kispert, Kula Bali, who's injured right now, but will come back hopefully early in the season, and Saar.

I don't know if that's the direction they'll go.

I think they probably don't want too, too many ball handlers on the floor at the same time, but that feels like a good balance for me.

Maybe they want to start Trey Johnson right off the bat.

I'm cool with that.

Like, that dude looks like a stud.

I'm excited for the Wizards.

I'm so excited that we talked about them longer than expected.

So, you know what I'm going to do?

I'm going to make a unilateral decision.

We're tabling the Charlotte Hornets discussion because the Charlotte Hornets are hovering a little bit above this group.

Like, how dare you?

How dare you?

Have you seen how many third graders are wearing Lamello Ball jerseys to school?

Okay, how dare you?

We have a locker room leader in Grant Williams.

Grant Williams and Spencer Dinwidder are going to be arguing over who's the true voice of the locker room, the veteran leader.

We got a lot here.

How dare you put us in this conversation?

You know what, Charlotte Hornets?

I hear you.

We're tabling it for a different day.

Mo DeKiel, what can we promote from you?

Yes, please go

check out the video work I'm doing on Offside.

It's going to be a new app sign up on the website to get on the wait list for when the app comes out.

I'm working with Jason Concepcion, Kofi Yabuja, everybody.

We're got a lot of great creators.

We're putting out videos now on all the socials.

Join Offside on X, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky.

If it's a social media, we're on it.

Make sure you're checking that stuff out.

We're dropping a ton of videos there.

And then also check out my podcast with Jared Dubin, The Double Dribble, wherever you go to listen to podcasts.

We're having a lot of fun.

We just did all the division previews.

And then next week we're going to start doing our predictions for awards.

I like it.

All right.

That's the award stuff is good.

Divisions, I respect your throwback loyalty to the entire concept of divisions.

I don't even pay any attention, but you got to have some structure to your previews.

Mo, you're the best.

I always say this.

If you want to know what happened in the basketball game, not who's mad at who, who's in trade rumors, who made a face at who on the bench, Mo is your guy.

Mo, thanks for your time, bud.

Thank you for having me.

All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show today and probably this week, unless something crazy happens.

It's the NBA, you never know.

Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan, and Mike on production.

Thanks to Ian Begley at SNY.

Thanks to the Toronto Blue Jays.

Thanks to Mo DeKille for talking Spurs and the Dregs.

Loaded episode.

Fun times this week.

Thanks to you for listening and or watching the Zach Lowe Show.

We will see you soon.

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