LeBron Returns, the Pistons Are Rolling, and Insights to Mediocrity With Steve Jones Jr.

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Speaker 1 Coming up on a Wednesday edition of the Zach Lowe Show, we've got Steve Jones Jr. from the Dunker Spot in the house.
One of the guys I always say,

Speaker 1 if you want to know what happened in the game, if you care about the actual basketball strategy, this is your guy. And we're going to talk about a whole lot of stuff.
The Detroit Pistons, 11 in a row.

Speaker 1 What are they doing well? What are they not doing well? Should Jalen Duran be an all-star? We're going to talk about that. LeBron.
Finally, we get LeBron with Luca and Reeves again this season.

Speaker 1 And the Lakers, they win. They beat the Jazz.
How did LeBron look? What did we see? What was encouraging? What was not so encouraging? And then we're going to bounce around the league.

Speaker 1 Point Ant in Minnesota. Anthony Edwards basically functioning as full-time point guard.
Now, how's that working? What do we see? What does the film see?

Speaker 1 Tyler Hero, how's he going to fit into the Heats offense? We got some gripes.

Speaker 1 Steve and I get some gripes off of our chest. We talk about injuries and all these calf injuries.
Wemby's out. Giannis is out.
What does that mean for the Bucs?

Speaker 1 All of it. Is there really a spike in calf injuries? We talk a little bit about that, which is all over the league with Steve Jones Jr.
from the Dunker spot. He's the best.
We get into a lot of stuff.

Speaker 1 Hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 1 Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show. It's Wednesday morning, and LeBron James made his debut for the Lakers in 2025-2026.
Last night, LeBron still plays for the Lakers. Sciatica kicked it.

Speaker 1 He's ready to play. The Detroit Pistons won their 11th, 11th straight NBA basketball game.
Detroit basketball basketball is all the way back. We got a lot to talk about.

Speaker 1 Steve Jones Jr., one half of the Dunker Spot Podcast, a must-listen. He and Nakaias Duncan.
If you want to know what's going on in the NBA and the WNBA,

Speaker 1 they're your guys. Steve Jones, how you doing?

Speaker 2 I'm good. Happy to be here.
Excited to be here. Ready to talk some hoops, man.

Speaker 1 All right, we got to start with LeBron. You know why? Because he's the all-time leading scorer and at worst, the second best player of all time.

Speaker 1 And he plays for the Lakers, and he came back and played his first game last night. So we got to start with him.

Speaker 1 11 points, 12 assists, including a fourth quarter, just dime-up frenzy of no-look passes and pick-and-roll play.

Speaker 1 The Lakers beat the Jazz, who just the Jazz just either score or give up 140 points in every game, one of the one of two or both.

Speaker 1 And they started the Lakers. Everyone was curious, would they start the lineup that we all sort of expected, or would they work Marcus Smart in? Who would come off the bench?

Speaker 1 They start Reeves, Luca, LeBron, Rui, Ayton, Dominate.

Speaker 1 What's your first impressions of both LeBron and the Lakers with LeBron having already now seen Luca's Luca, MVP candidate, but Reeves has ascended to a different stature in the first three weeks of the season?

Speaker 1 So what's your first impressions?

Speaker 2 I think the last two things that you said are what made it fun to watch that because you have what Luca does and you have the growth of Austin Reeves and you have JJ Reddick trying to get them to play with championship habits.

Speaker 2 So instead of it being the course of, hey,

Speaker 2 we're going to try and make some changes. LeBron has to to do too much.
And, oh, no, what do we do? We've got a little bit more of a stronger base. And now LeBron can kind of come in.

Speaker 2 And I think you saw him play in the flow a lot more.

Speaker 2 It's always odd to me to see the plays where Luca gets a pick and roll and the defense helps and to kick out to LeBron who's driving a closeout and vice versa.

Speaker 2 Like they ran a great play to start the second half where it was LeBron on one side, a flare on the other side, got a violation, didn't count.

Speaker 1 The play was

Speaker 1 even more detailed than that, and I think it's very important you highlighted it. I did too.
It was the first play of the second half.

Speaker 1 So, you know, that's one that coaches are like, we've got to go to this. Let's get this flowing.

Speaker 1 It was a LeBron Reeves pick and roll on the right side, designed to get a small guy switched under LeBron. They got it.

Speaker 1 LeBron went into the post, and at the same time, Luca ran off a flare screen on the other side from Ayton, and LeBron kicked it there, and there was a foul.

Speaker 1 But that's the kind of play, the three-man synergy between those guys. That's what we're looking for, right? That's why that play stood out to you, I bet.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. And And I think it's just finding a way to work them in together.
I thought one thing they did a good job of was using Austin Reeves as a cross-screener for Luca and LeBron.

Speaker 2 Obviously, we know LeBron's going to attack matchups, and so he was looking at Keontae George all night. But Austin Reeves being able to get to it a little bit more randomly at times.

Speaker 2 You know, I think there was a play, LeBron caught at the top, swinging to Luca. Austin Reeves comes from the corners at the bat pick.
Utah switches. LeBron gets in the middle of the floor.

Speaker 2 Doing those kind of things, I think, is where you kind of can feel the weight

Speaker 2 and finding ways to use them together. Because a Luca LeBron pick and roll is just going to be a switch and usually the defensive presence is going to be, okay, we have to live with this.

Speaker 2 Who's going to guard Reeves? Can that be the matchup? Even when Marcus Smart comes in the game, you could use him as a screener depending on who's guarding him.

Speaker 2 And then obviously with DeAndre Ayton, if there's a Vig in there,

Speaker 2 I think he's going to, LeBron's going to be good for DeAndre Ayton, especially if he's in the post and... teams are trying to work to double and he can kind of flash or be the dunker spot.

Speaker 2 So just kind of figuring out the synergy is going to be important for them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he started slow. LeBron did.

Speaker 1 I think he only had taken one shot 14 minutes into the game, and he was a three.

Speaker 1 Hadn't scored yet.

Speaker 1 And there was not as much of that sort of three-man synergy or two-man synergy early as I thought there was going to be.

Speaker 1 But then you remember, this guy hasn't played in a long time with the Lakers, and he's feeling his way back into the game. And you could see him being deferential in a way that is rare for him.

Speaker 1 Like just hit ahead, get off of it early. And then the longer the game went, the more he started to pick his spots.

Speaker 1 We saw a lot of that two-man game between he and Reeves, and they would post LeBron, and he didn't even have to like work so hard against the mismatches.

Speaker 1 There was one where he basically posted up at the three-point line, and they loaded to him so aggressively that he just flicked it to Aiton, I think, for a little floater.

Speaker 1 He got Aiton another lob at some point, he got Marcus Smart a layup out of all that post-up stuff. Then he had another play in the second quarter, and this is when he started to rev up.

Speaker 1 I think it was even after a make. Luca quickly inbounded to LeBron on the right side, and LeBron saw, I got a runway in front of me.
No one's in front of me. Okay, full blast.

Speaker 1 First full blast we've seen in a while. Drives it super hard.
Cody Williams is backpedaling, like, okay,

Speaker 1 I don't want any part of this. I don't know what happened to me.
I'm Cody Williams. I've suddenly got to deal with this freight train.
And he kicked to Loravia in the left corner from the paint

Speaker 1 for a three. And you started to get that rolling.

Speaker 1 And then you highlighted the other play where Reeves set a back screen for him in the paint, got Keontae George switched onto him, and he just put Keontae George in the basket.

Speaker 1 Either drew a, I think he scored and shouted for an N-1 that he didn't get. I just thought it was offensively as good as you could have hoped for for the Lakers.

Speaker 1 After sort of a slow feeling out start, they began to lean into some of the stuff that if this is going to work, this is how it's going to work. He had a run of pick and roll.

Speaker 1 play in the fourth quarter where he created three straight buckets,

Speaker 1 one for him, two for other guys. No, I think three.
I think it was one for Vincent on a three and a layup for Aiton and then something. Oh, Jackson Hayes got it dunked.

Speaker 1 And it was like, all right, this is, and that, this is, and that was with Luca off the floor. Um, and they leaned into that.

Speaker 1 I love that they've, they've already settled into that rotation of Luca gets his alone minutes, and when Luca's on the bench, it's LeBron and Reeves together. I think that's the smart way to do it.

Speaker 1 That's the way they did it last year. Offensively, I think A plus, everything they could have wanted.
Defensively, I will say that starting five looks slow.

Speaker 1 And as other people have noted, it's basically a Reeves, kind of undersized-ish guard who struggles sometimes on defense, three power forward types in terms of what types of players they're best to guard in LeBron, Luca, and Rui, and a pretty traditional center in Ayton.

Speaker 1 And you could see the speed of even like Sphema Hailuk flying around the floor was too fast for them. I'm just tabling it.

Speaker 1 I don't even know what I would do if I were JJ Reddick, and I want to give this group more time, but that did stand out to me. What did you think of them defensively?

Speaker 2 Well, I think for the Lakers, they don't want to put two on the ball if they can avoid it.

Speaker 2 Utah is not a great matchup for them in the sense that they're going to fly around and move the ball and move their bodies.

Speaker 2 And so you saw the Lakers get dinged on switches and Laurie Markin and sliding into the lane. I think for them, they've just got to get to a comfort level of

Speaker 2 contain, contest, and just live with the results. Those nights where they can't keep the ball in front, the nights where they they can't get back in transition, it's going to happen.

Speaker 2 But they've got to get to a point where they can just be decisive defensively. I think their worst moments are when they're not decisive on the defensive end, not communicate, not switching.

Speaker 2 I think that's why Marcus Smart's really important, just because he can guard a lot of people. And

Speaker 2 they're going to have to find a way to just be comfortable with

Speaker 2 communicating and switching. Because with this Rui, Luca, and LeBron,

Speaker 2 who's on the weak side? Who's helping? When is DeAndre Ayton going to help? What's he doing in pick and roll? Like, there's questions.

Speaker 2 And they can't just settle on switching like they did last year.

Speaker 1 I thought LeBron looked,

Speaker 1 you know, a little lurchy sometimes on defense, closing out on guys, but he was talking. He was scram switching.
Like when you saw a mismatch in the post, he'd come out and grab people.

Speaker 1 He was doing all the stuff you would on defense, you would hope for on defense.

Speaker 1 And if he does look a little lurchy, closing out on like Keontae George, who's 20 years younger than he is, basically, you do have to remember he's almost 41 coming off sciatica.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, he looked a little lurchy. It's all right.
I just don't really know. Everyone is always over-focused on the starting five.

Speaker 1 The starting five, even if you keep it the same, you can change the rotation.

Speaker 1 We saw that lineup with Smart in place of Rui in certain points of the game. You can lean on that lineup more.
We saw Gabe Vinson come back last night.

Speaker 1 We saw no Jared Vanderbilt, who's kind of getting marginalized again from the rotation. But you can keep that starting five and minimize its minutes together if it becomes a problem defensively.

Speaker 1 I just don't love any of the answers. Like the easy answer is Rui, right? You've got to bring Rui off the bench because Reeves is just too good now.
Obviously, it's not Luca, it's not LeBron.

Speaker 1 It's not going to be the only, you know, starting caliber center on the team. I just don't really love any Lakers answer where Les Rui is the answer.

Speaker 1 Rui has been everything they could have hoped he would be. He's averaging 15 a game, shooting 57%, 48% on threes, pretty solid defensively.

Speaker 1 love, I just don't love that. That's the only answer, really, to the starting five riddle.
He's just been too good.

Speaker 2 I think you got to keep him in there, and then you can close with whoever you'd like, depending on the matchup. But I think you keep him rolling.

Speaker 2 Offensively, I think he's found his sweet spot. And then defensively, I think for them, it's just about help defense.

Speaker 2 I think if Luca can rotate and Austin Reeves can show help and they don't get beat on the second closeout, they can usually live with the result. But I don't know if you start Marcus Smart.

Speaker 2 I think you keep him in the rotation. I think I like that lineup with him and Reeves and Luca and LeBron and Ayton, but I don't know if you have to start it.

Speaker 1 Also, no Connect last night, who had been in the rotation, no Bronnie, who had been in and out of the rotation. So JJ's got his full compliment now for the first time all season.

Speaker 1 We're going to see how he uses it. I just thought, you know, couldn't have gone any better offensively, really.

Speaker 1 The Lakers are now 11-4.

Speaker 1 They are fourth in the West. They've only played six home games, nine road games.

Speaker 1 A game behind both Houston and Denver in the lost column, and the Thunder are 14 and 1 to never lose.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 ever since Rich Paul put out the passive-aggressive statement over the summer about, you know, it's hard to win now and plan for the future at the same time, and we all want what's best for the big guy.

Speaker 1 There's been this sort of search for what's going to happen next for LeBron, whether

Speaker 1 Los Angeles is the final chapter of his career, or if he continues playing after this year, there's another place for him.

Speaker 1 And the presumption has been, well, if there is another place for him, it's going to be a mix of sentimentality and winning, wherever that is, right?

Speaker 1 Cleveland would be the most obvious sort of sentimental plus winning example. And he can go anywhere.
If he wants to sign for the minimum, he can go to Oklahoma City for the minimum.

Speaker 1 I don't see that ever happening, but he could.

Speaker 1 He could get to a better team if he's willing to sign for any amount of money because he could literally sign anywhere. He could sign whoever wins the championship.
But I do look at this Lakers team.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I'm not, if he wants to get paid even like a mid-level exception or some commensurate salary i'm not sure how many places are going to be better than this like this is a good team

Speaker 1 its biggest disadvantage and stop me if you've heard this before is they play in the wrong conference with a young juggernaut in oklahoma city and denver who has been about oklahoma city's peer in almost every measure so far this year i still i like how far do you think the lakers can get this year

Speaker 2 I think the biggest thing is them getting off to a hot start is very important.

Speaker 2 I think they have to get top four to give themselves a chance, get to that second round, and then let's see where we're at.

Speaker 2 I think the problem for me with the Lakers has always been: okay, they have the pieces, they might be able to make it run in the playoffs, they're down in the standings, and they're fighting from up above.

Speaker 2 So, I think if they give themselves a shot in the standings and can stick with OKC in Denver and Houston, okay, let's play ball.

Speaker 2 Let's have the five seed and let's see what we can do against the Thunder because eventually you're gonna have to beat the Thunder. You can't win the Western Conference unless you beat the Thunder.

Speaker 2 That's just facts. So,

Speaker 2 they need to stick around the top for them to be able to hit their ceiling.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I guess there's a world where you can imagine a scenario where

Speaker 1 the Lakers have always done okay against the Thunder.

Speaker 1 They like their size and bullying style of play against them. I frankly think the Thunder have advanced past any sort of level of being intimidated or whatever by that style.

Speaker 1 But just imagine a world where the Thunder get into the playoffs, get into the second round against the Lakers.

Speaker 1 If the Lakers advance past Wemby in the first round or Anthony Edwards in the first round or whatever horrible matchup is waiting for them, and maybe somebody on the Thunder tweaks an ankle, they get a little like, you know, the moment gets big in the Thunder, even though they just won the championship.

Speaker 1 It's Los Angeles, Lakers do Lakers things. They get a big free throw advantage because they always seem to get a big free throw advantage.
They've somehow squeaked that series out in seven games.

Speaker 1 And then maybe like Houston upsets Denver in the second round. And so you don't have to go through both Denver and Oklahoma City.

Speaker 1 It's just a lot of, like I've always said, I think the Lakers could compete in any playoff series in the Western Conference. Like even against the Thunder, I think they could be competitive.

Speaker 1 They have been

Speaker 1 somewhat competitive in

Speaker 1 series in which the final game score is not competitive against Denver.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 winning three in the West just feels like too much of a stretch for me when one of the best players is 41 years old.

Speaker 1 I still don't see chance.

Speaker 1 Can they make the finals?

Speaker 1 Is that what you're saying? They can make the finals?

Speaker 1 i would just bet heavily i just don't i don't know i don't see it the western conference is hard and i think they would need some assistance that scenario you laid out is probably the one for me um i don't know if they want to face okc and denver so i i could see a western conference finals run i'll put it that way um speaking of the west one thing you and i wanted to talk about i meant to talk about it on monday when i um talked about oklahoma city and denver and just how awesome they've been so far and then i sort of apologize to the rockets fans, like, we'll get to you.

Speaker 1 You know, there's been a lot of bellyaching over the last few years about stylistic homogeneity in the NBA. Everybody plays the same way.
It's just spread, pick, and roll.

Speaker 1 And at times, I do think there's been some truth to that, right? Like, spread, pick, and roll, drive, kick. Everybody wants threes, everybody wants rim.
And there's always been exceptions.

Speaker 1 But man, you look at those top three teams in the West right now. They could not be any different in terms of how they play and what kind of shots they're trying to get.

Speaker 1 Oklahoma City is this just frenzied, turnover-producing, defensive juggernaut who is so much better defensively than anybody right now that it's a joke.

Speaker 1 And they have this mid-range assassin as the head of the snake. Denver has just

Speaker 1 literally a unicorn all-time player.

Speaker 1 We've never seen anybody like this before. They are last in the league in drives for the second straight year.
They don't shoot threes, and yet they just bludgeon everybody on offense.

Speaker 1 Houston is trying to, I guess, be the first team to chase a championship where at least 50% of its offensive philosophy is missing a shot and just getting a rebound on their own misses and beating the hell out of everybody and being giant.

Speaker 1 And Reed Shepard's coming along too, but like just three

Speaker 1 completely different animals at the top of the Western. Like if you want...
If you want any kind of different basketball, you can find it just at the top of the Western Conference standings.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they all have their own identity.

Speaker 2 I mean, the Thunder, we know what they do defensively, but I think offensively, I don't know if they get enough credit for the plug-and-play ability up and down the roster.

Speaker 2 Everyone knows what they're supposed to do. They move the ball side to side.
They keep pressure on you, and Shay is just continuing to add layers. So, I mean, he's going to drive to the rim.

Speaker 2 He's going to get to the mid-range. He's going to draw some fouls, add some pull-up threes.

Speaker 2 So, they're hard to deal with because they're unpredictable offensively, and they have more of a confident and confidence on that end.

Speaker 2 Denver, in my end, they're just so connected to me right now on both ends of the floor, offensively, empowering Aaron Gordon.

Speaker 2 You know, we've talked about Jokic and Gordon and Jamal Murray and the threat of those three in action together. Now, Aaron Gordon's real-life threat.
It's not just Dunker Spot.

Speaker 2 Like, he's just going to be in pick and roll. He's going to get a flare for a three.
He's going to attack early in the clock. Jokic, you don't necessarily know when he's going to score.

Speaker 2 I don't think I've ever seen him happier on the basketball court as far as just, okay, I initiate, I get a screen, I'm going right to work.

Speaker 1 There's no you know when I know he's going to score when he shoots, because he makes every single shot.

Speaker 2 He's been on a heater, but I mean, it's just,

Speaker 2 you you can't double him and then defensively uh i think people are trying to figure out okay how are they doing this defensively they're connected like they are trying different things david adams got them you know hey we might switch we might drop jokic guarding on wing we'll throw zone out there so they're just figuring things out on both ends and i think houston Stylistically, I love a defensive first team, let's slow the pace down team.

Speaker 2 KD has had an impact as far as being the guy who, okay, maybe this didn't work out to the best of our ability. So the first 18 seconds, I can get a shot.
Defenses are going to show help.

Speaker 2 I can make whatever shot I need to make. Albert Shingoon and his drives have been really important for them.
I think he's been a lot better.

Speaker 2 Ahmed Thompson, obviously, getting downhill and the defense he brings. Lari Shepard has impressed me.
I think he's on the right track.

Speaker 2 So I've liked seeing his confidence grow, especially in pick and roll, as far as understanding, I have a shot here. I have a pass here.
I don't have to force it. And so...

Speaker 2 I'm intrigued to see, can they find the right tempo? But you know what they're going to do every single night, and they believe in their identity.

Speaker 2 And so I think that's what separates them from me in the Western Conference is you know what to expect every single night. They're going to compete and they're hard to beat.

Speaker 1 Just three really fun teams to watch in completely different ways.

Speaker 1 All right, before we get to the red hot Detroit Pistons, we've got to talk about some injury news. There's a whole bunch of injuries.
Wemby is out two to three weeks with a calf strain.

Speaker 1 Stefan Castle's already out. Dylan Harper's already out.
Anthony Davis remains out. And the big one, John Morant, is also out with a calf strain.

Speaker 1 It's like the way he's playing, I don't know if that's good or bad for Memphis at this point.

Speaker 1 I don't even know what's good for Memphis. 4-11, I had my on Monday, Steve, I talked about the five-team disaster zone in the Western Conference.

Speaker 1 Just, I can't remember any moment where so many teams, ostensibly designed to win basketball games, are not only losing them, but losing them in such catastrophically bad ways with such potentially catastrophic draft pick um consequences

Speaker 1 one of them already made a catastrophic franchise destructing destroying destructing destroying trade in the lukaj it's just unbelievable and memphis is one of them might as well just tank now i guess um the big one though is yannis who is a sigh of relief on the one hand only out one to two weeks it appears uh with a grade one groin strain uh one to two weeks ain't much It could be five games, it could be seven games.

Speaker 1 The Bucs have quietly slipped to eight and seven. They're in this jumble of teams.
There are five teams in the East who are either eight and six, seven and six, or eight and seven.

Speaker 1 They are for the season plus seven per 100 possessions with Giannis on the floor and minus 12 per 100 possessions with Giannis on the floor. That is a gargantuan 19-point gap.

Speaker 1 Their next seven games don't sound too bad,

Speaker 1 but you know, let's Philly, Detroit, Portland, Miami, New York, Brooklyn, and Washington better win those two games. I don't care who else is hurting, better win those games.
And Detroit again,

Speaker 1 that's

Speaker 1 the heat, the Knicks and the Sixers are sort of in their area of the standings right now. And

Speaker 1 look, the Bucs margin is not.

Speaker 1 I mean, the Bucs are in the lottery right now. I think

Speaker 1 they're also like a game out of third. So, you know, I wouldn't, it's not nothing.

Speaker 1 Any prolonged time that Giannis misses is not nothing. And it decreases their margin to take A, another injury and B, another Giannis two-week injury down the line.

Speaker 1 I'm very interested to see, I think they're one and one without him so far this year, one and two, if you include the game where he got hurt and played only 13 minutes.

Speaker 1 I'm very interested to see if they can, let's say it's those seven games, can they scratch out three and four or even four and three since two of them are against Brooklyn and Washington?

Speaker 1 If either of those scenarios, I think, is a W for the Bucs, or is this a one and six uh-oh scenario? I'm just, I'm just, I'm watching. That's all.

Speaker 2 I mean, I think they got to go, they got to try and go as back and forth as they can with it because there's a chance where they can kind of make up some ground.

Speaker 2 Maybe you catch a Philly, maybe you catch a Detroit, maybe you catch Portland. Uh, use your home court advantage and hope you can get the best out of it.

Speaker 2 This is probably why they've tried to play in a different way as far as having a little bit more high pace. Maybe you get Miles Turner more involved offensively.

Speaker 2 We've seen Kyle Kuzma do some positive things this year.

Speaker 2 Ryan Rollins has been a relevation. And so

Speaker 2 you have a style of play that you can lean on offensively. You will have to play much better defense than you have displayed recently if you want to have sustained success during the stretch.

Speaker 2 And those are some tricky matchups. Like Philadelphia is going to drive that basketball.
Detroit's very good. Miami's going to drive that basketball.

Speaker 2 So I think this is a chance for them to kind of lean in a little bit defensively, keep their offensive pace, and see if we can scratch out four.

Speaker 1 That would be four and three would be a home run. And honestly, him, he's just, Giannis is sometimes you wonder if he's indestructible.

Speaker 1 He has these falls and these injuries that look so bad, and he was holding his groin throughout that entire second quarter. You can see he wasn't right.
Then it's like one to two weeks. He'll be

Speaker 1 back pretty soon.

Speaker 1 I haven't loved, I haven't looked up the numbers. I haven't loved the combination of Portis and Turner together at the four and the five, just because I feel like there's no, there's no like oomph.

Speaker 1 There's no force on offense. No one is going north.
It's all on the guards at that point to go north-south, which Rollins has been up for it, but we'll see.

Speaker 1 It does feel like there have been a million calf and hamstring injuries to start the season. Apparently, there have not.

Speaker 1 Jeff Stotts in street close on Twitter, the preeminent NBA injury expert/slash tracker tweeted yesterday, and I talked to him on the phone about this.

Speaker 1 The latest updates on Wemby and AD calf injuries got me curious. To start, calf injuries are not up this season when compared to the last five seasons.
Not up.

Speaker 1 It's common to see a spike in soft tissue injuries during the preseason and first 20 games of the year. Okay, I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1 I will say, talking anecdotally to team health personnel, the Halliburton injury hangover effect effect is going to make teams justifiably very, very cautious in terms of extending rest timetables for guys with calf injuries, fearing a catastrophic injury if they come back too soon.

Speaker 1 I think we're seeing that in Dallas with all the rumblings that Patrick Dumont now wants final say in when Anthony Davis comes back. I thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1 Any other injury thoughts or should we move on to happier things?

Speaker 2 We can move on to happier things, but

Speaker 2 I think you are correct that the Halliburton deal, if you see the word calf, I imagine teams are just going to shut people down as soon as they can and make sure they get back right.

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Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by salty, cheesy, cheese-it crackers. Should this whole podcast just be me eating cheese-it? That would be a top-notch podcast.

Speaker 1 You could hear them crunching in my mouth. You could think about how salty and savory and delicious they are.
You can just get cheese-it on the brain. Oh man, those cheese-it cravings, they get you.

Speaker 1 Anyway,

Speaker 1 what was I talking about? Oh, yeah, uh, uh, oh, cheese-it, yeah, cheese-it crackers. Go check them out.

Speaker 1 The Detroit Pistons

Speaker 1 are 13 and 2, Steve Jones Jr.

Speaker 1 13 and 2.

Speaker 1 They are 13th in offense, 2nd in defense,

Speaker 1 and flying three games ahead of everyone in the Eastern Conference. Boy, is this getting interesting.

Speaker 1 Where would you like to start with what is happening with the Detroit Pistons, who, by the way, Jaden Ivey hasn't played the whole season. Tobias Harris hasn't played in quite a while.

Speaker 1 They're playing, as a result, Marcus Sassa hasn't played the whole season. They're playing lineups that have four non-shooters at times and still making it where Cade has missed recent games.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter because Dannis Jenkins is on the team and is unbelievable. What a story Dennis Jenkins is.

Speaker 1 So crafty on offense, can score, can pace, throw in these underhand, lefty lobs all over the place, like a pretty solid perimeter defender.

Speaker 1 He's a legit guy. He's a real rotation guy.
Played, started alongside Cade last night in their win against the Hawks.

Speaker 1 You kick us off. Where do you want to start with these guys?

Speaker 2 I mean, I'd love to, for me, it's Cade Cunningham and the way that he's driven the ship. I think he ties into their identity.
They play a very specific style of basketball and they believe.

Speaker 2 And so sometimes when you have a regular season run like this early in the year, a team gets buy-in, a team gets wins, they add belief, and now you have more success.

Speaker 2 But Cade's been incredible, I think, as far as his ability to score the basketball, you know, play at his own pace can be said too much, but you never know what you're going to get with one of his drives.

Speaker 2 It looks like he's not moving in a straight line in the paint finishing.

Speaker 2 Tifa, and I think his playmaking has grown as far as teams showing more double teams, putting two on the ball, and him being able to make the right reads and that kind of opening things up for Detroit in the half court at times.

Speaker 2 Jalen Duran has been really good with him as well. That growth was something I didn't expect.
So I have to apologize to the Jalen Duran I yelled at for dribble handoffs that were not very fun for me.

Speaker 2 But his ability.

Speaker 1 I didn't know you were a Jalen Duran skeptic. I've been a Jalen Duran, like he's been my white whale in the NBA.

Speaker 1 I've been like waiting for this because you could see glimpses of it and I've always been optimistic. But this is this is outrageous.
He's averaging 21 points and 12 rebounds a game.

Speaker 1 He's shooting 68%.

Speaker 1 He's holding opponents to a very good field goal percentage at the room. He's tightened up his defense.
His face-up game is so much more under control.

Speaker 1 Like, he had Isaiah Jackson on him the other night against Indiana, and he was like, You're just too small.

Speaker 1 I'm going to go through you, but I'm going to do it carefully, and I'm going to do it without getting out of control. Mo Gay last night, he was like, just get, just, this is insulting to me.

Speaker 1 I'm just going to bullyball you to the rim, and he's slowing down when traffic comes and like taking an extra dribble and glance around the floor.

Speaker 1 Turnovers are down for him, fouls are down for him, turnovers down for Cade. Jalen Duran should be in the all-star game right now, the way he's playing.

Speaker 2 I agree. I agree.
And I like the rotations he's made defensively around the baseline. The short roll game, as you mentioned, has been much improved.

Speaker 2 So it's not necessarily, I'm just going to get a lob. No, I'm going to catch.
I can make a pass, and I can also hit you first and score. So that's been fun.

Speaker 2 One thing you mentioned, the non-shooting aspect for Detroit. It was funny because last year I felt like they were fun.
They tried to have a blend of like playmaking and shooting and spacing.

Speaker 2 And this year, well, we don't have some of these guys. So we're just going to play defense.
We're just going to put defenders up there.

Speaker 2 Ron Holland, Sarah Thompson, everyone, just go ahead and get after it. Yeah, Tim Hardaway gone.

Speaker 1 Malik Beasley gone.

Speaker 2 So we're going to lean into that a little bit more. We're going to have that activity.

Speaker 2 And so even when the moments where it felt like almost everyone was out, everyone knew how they were supposed to play on that end of the floor and they competed.

Speaker 2 And I think compete level is just so important in today's NBA. You bring it, you give yourself a chance.

Speaker 2 So I've just enjoyed them kind of piecing it all together and figuring out different ways to win and staying consistent.

Speaker 2 You know, there's still question marks for me, but I mean, it's fun to watch kind of JB Bickerstaff like Duncan Robinson run around off screens. Like,

Speaker 2 you're our shooter fly around, buddy.

Speaker 1 You are the shooter. You are the only one right now, buddy.
Like, keep on moving.

Speaker 2 But yeah,

Speaker 2 I just love the way they compete. And I'm intrigued to see how the league handles them now that they've kind of sustained a little bit of success and what that pushback looks like.

Speaker 1 You know who else is shooting pretty well? Beef Stew, 39% on threes, has been starting at the four a little bit with Tobias Harris

Speaker 1 hurt, and that's put Paul Reed in the rotation, and Paul Reed's been fine.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I just like,

Speaker 1 you said the word identity. This team has a pretty clear one, and the identity is we're physical as shit, and we own the paint.
So here are some numbers that would back that up. They have...

Speaker 1 the second highest foul rate on defense in the NBA. So they're going to beat you up, and they're okay with that.
You know why? Because they have the number one turnover rate in the NBA.

Speaker 1 So a lot of the times we reach, we're going to hit your arm, and a lot of the other times we're going to get the ball or jar the ball loose.

Speaker 1 They allow very few shots at the rim and the third lowest field goal percentage at the rim. Both Stewart and Duran have been, especially Stewart is blocking everything.
The rim is a no-fly zone.

Speaker 1 You want to come in here, you're either going to get hit or you're going to get blocked, or you're going to chicken out and throw the ball the other way.

Speaker 1 On offense, they are eighth in free throw rate, so at least they get to the line quite a bit, physical play, right?

Speaker 1 They are second in frequency of shots at the rim, so they get to the rim a ton on offense, and third in offensive rebounding. So they're beating the crap out of you on the glass.

Speaker 1 Only 21st in defensive rebounding is the only sort of weakness in their paint protection game, but they know exactly who they are. I also think they play very unselfishly.

Speaker 1 And this Jenkins thing,

Speaker 1 it looks like a pretty real thing to me. Like, I don't know if he's going to be putting up 20 a game all the time, but he's up to 12 a game.

Speaker 1 He's a good passer. He's a good defender.
He's already shown he can play with Cade.

Speaker 1 I think they've found

Speaker 1 another guy who, if Ivy's still hurt, Karis Lavert missed the game last night.

Speaker 1 You know, if Duncan Robinson is a defensive liability in the wrong matchup, this is a real guy.

Speaker 1 I don't know what you've noticed from him, but the first couple of times I saw him in the box score, I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And I started watching.

Speaker 1 I'm like, oh, oh, well, this is like real.

Speaker 2 Confidence, juice, gets after it. You know,

Speaker 2 there's not a shot he doesn't mind, but he also, as you said, is willing to keep the ball moving, understands how to cut and get out of the way, and space. And I think that's important next to Cade.

Speaker 2 And so him being able to be a consistent presence within what Detroit does, I think is really important. I think the more guard play they can get, the better off they'll be.

Speaker 2 And JB being able to trust him on both ends says a lot.

Speaker 1 You mentioned

Speaker 2 Cade.

Speaker 1 Still kind of a polarizing player. Like, you surf Twitter sometimes and you'll get like the

Speaker 1 Cade is overrated. You know, Detroit's a defense first team.
Is he really driving that? You know, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 Let me find his stats. I wrote them down here somewhere.

Speaker 1 27 and 10. It's pretty goddamn good.
44% shooting. Okay.

Speaker 1 28% on threes.

Speaker 1 51% on twos. He's gotten his turnovers under control, which is big.
I bring this all up. I'm curious what you think of this.

Speaker 1 I was looking this up because of Anthony Edwards, mostly, who we're going to talk about, but there's a Cade thing here, too.

Speaker 1 If you look at all the medium to high-volume pick and roll ball handlers in the league,

Speaker 1 Luca has been blitzed the most by defenses, so two on the ball.

Speaker 1 18% of pick and rolls, Luca's been blitzed. Anthony Edwards is second at 17%, which we're going to talk about.
And Cade is third at 16%.

Speaker 1 And that intuitively makes sense when you think about teams look at the pistons. It's like, well, this guy

Speaker 1 is not the only threat on the team, but is so far and away the biggest threat on the team.

Speaker 1 And he's often surrounded by so little shooting that you guys go ahead and ping the ball around between all your guys who can't shoot threes. We'll cover the paint and we'll force you into a bad shot.

Speaker 1 We'll make other guys beat us who aren't Cade, and we'll try to make those other guys be Ron Holland from three, Javante Green from three, whoever non-threatening three-point shooter we can find.

Speaker 1 But often that's not been the case. Often it's been like Jalen Duran dunking all over planet Earth.

Speaker 1 Like if you don't, if you're the help defender and you don't hit Durin at the foul line, he is going to dunk. Like it's too late.
If he's in the paint, he is dunking you through the freaking floor.

Speaker 1 It's been Asar Thompson in the dunker spot spot taking a pass from Jalen Duran.

Speaker 1 It's been a better shot than teams think they're going to end up giving up when they trap Cade because of all the bad shooting around him.

Speaker 1 And I wonder when you hear that stat, like I've been watching the Pistons and thinking, I wonder when some team is just going to start going under screens on him and daring him to shoot threes and playing a softer coverage against him.

Speaker 1 Obviously, you have to mix up coverages against great teams, and Detroit is a very good team.

Speaker 1 I wonder if the league is playing him too aggressively and it's almost playing into the Pistons' hands in a way that defenses haven't expected.

Speaker 2 I think it's a fair point. It's always the balancing act when you decide we're going to put two on the ball.
You are opening up a play. You are opening up an advantage.

Speaker 2 And so for a Detroit team that may not have the shooting, they still have the ability to force you to help on a roll, to get cuts out of it, to get the shots they want.

Speaker 2 And Jalen Durin's growth is important. Cade being able to make the right reads is important.
And so them nailing that portion consistently makes it more untenable to live with.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking and wondering, okay, what happens when teams decide, okay, we're going to switch? Does Cade now have to win certain matchups? Does that now become a switch and double scenario?

Speaker 2 Like, what's the response going to be? If they go under, do we just get a rescreen? Now we get what we want, anyways.

Speaker 1 Sure, there's counters to everything, right?

Speaker 2 So it's just one of those deals where I think it's a fair point to wonder if teams have said,

Speaker 2 have opened up too much for Detroit, especially for a team that at times you could wonder, hey, can they generate what they want in the half-court consistently?

Speaker 2 But I do think Cade's play has warranted at least a certain level of attention. I think that's kind of the hand-in-hand deal.

Speaker 2 Um, when you're a young guard, you play so well, hey, we can't, it can't be you.

Speaker 2 And I think if Durin had taken a step back or hadn't hadn't done some of these things consistently, you might feel better about showing help and forcing a skip pass and being able to recover.

Speaker 2 But them having both of those guys going at the same time makes it real tough.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and if you play a drop back coverage against him, he is very good.

Speaker 1 I've always been very bullish on Cade, and he is very good at being sort of Luca light of just, I'm going to get in the paint with a live dribble. I can make floaters.

Speaker 1 I'm going to keep you guessing on defense in this sort of eight foot from the rim, 12 foot from the rim zone that is

Speaker 1 a dead zone for smaller players or less intuitive players, but for me is a place where I've got the whole game at my fingertips. Everything's alive for me.
And

Speaker 1 he's got counters for that. I just, I, it's,

Speaker 1 so maybe, maybe I'm off point here. I just, I remember him passing up threes in the playoffs against the Knicks sometimes, like when guys would go under.
I just

Speaker 1 trapping him, Detroit is profiting well enough off of that. I guess they're only 13th in offense, so I guess I guess keep doing it.

Speaker 1 I'm just I want to see a team mix it up a little bit more against him. But to your point, they're also just a very unselfish team.

Speaker 1 They play really hard, they play very unselfishly, they have been really a joy to watch. And so, the big follow-up question that I'm sure the Pistons are starting to think about is:

Speaker 1 do you read this start, Steve Jones? If you're the gentle, if you're Trajan Langdon

Speaker 1 and Tom Gores,

Speaker 1 you can read this one of two ways.

Speaker 1 And not only your hot start, but the fact that the Cavs who are going to get to look good, but not great. The Knicks look good but not great.
No one is frightening you right now in the East.

Speaker 1 Do you look at all of that and conclude we don't have to do anything? We can keep our powder dry for a move next year, two years from now, because we might be able to

Speaker 1 get to the finals this year just make the Indiana run 2.0 or do you look at this start and say we're ahead of schedule um

Speaker 1 we probably still don't have enough shooting but the time is now

Speaker 1 what's what's Danny Ainge and Austin Ainge phone number in Utah let's try to get the Lowry market and trade discussion started which of those would you err on

Speaker 2 I would probably err on the side of let's see what this is fully let's see if we don't have if we're missing this specific piece, if we need to go big, or maybe it's make a small move and try and add some shooting and get the balance back that you had closer to last year.

Speaker 2 But I don't know if you have to take the big swing yet.

Speaker 2 You have enough success. You have an identity.
You have all the guys you have bought in. So if you make that swing and you go backwards, what's the cost this year, next year?

Speaker 2 How are you going to rebuild the roster around it?

Speaker 2 I would say, I would, I would say, let's ride this until the wheels fall off and let's figure out in the playoffs if we are exposed or we need player X. It's kind of how I felt about OKC.

Speaker 2 Like when everyone was like, hey, go get a big. I was like, oh, let's see what they can do.
And then they went out and got a big.

Speaker 1 And they and they made the giddy, the giddy trade that everyone was sort of waiting for after Giddy was slightly to, well, no, Giddy was kind of exposed as a guy who wasn't ready for the playoff stage the way they needed him to be ready for the playoff stage.

Speaker 1 I get it. We haven't seen Ivy yet.
Ivy hit 40 something percent on catch and shoot threes last year before he got injured. That's a massively important thing for anyone playing alongside Cade.

Speaker 1 I want to see that first before I do anything. But I do think

Speaker 1 in the playoffs, the lack of shooting is going to be a bigger detriment than it is in the regular season. And that Markinen is just a perfect player for them.
Perfect.

Speaker 1 And if you can get him for Tobias.

Speaker 1 Like you're swapping the Tobias Harris minutes for the Lowry Markinen minutes. And Tobias Harris has been rock solid for them.
He's been a great culture guy for them.

Speaker 1 And I think that kind of stuff, like his veteran leadership and his toughness, would make them pause a little bit. But if I can get Tobias Harris, if I Ivy is going to be the prize for Utah, right?

Speaker 1 Although Keontae George has played so well that maybe this doesn't make sense for them. I don't know.
I'm just thinking out loud.

Speaker 1 And if I'm Detroit, I have this. this Jenkins thing happening where I feel a little bit more comfortable letting Ivy go.
And I got to throw in a pile of picks. Do I have to throw in Holland?

Speaker 1 Maybe it ends up swinging there.

Speaker 1 We'll see how things look in two months. My read now is more towards the

Speaker 1 strike while the iron is hot.

Speaker 1 If that's the upgrade that may make us

Speaker 1 a real threat to make the finals, and if you people talk about making the finals, when you get there, you have to beat the other team.

Speaker 1 And the other team is going to be goddamn good coming out of the west.

Speaker 1 And Marketing fits the timetable. Like, I'm saying Marketing specifically.
I'm not just saying take a swing for anybody and everybody, because if it's not him, then I think you're right.

Speaker 1 You try to find a smaller move.

Speaker 1 Can we search around and find someone to replicate a little bit of what beasley gave us last year what does lavert look like with as he gets more comfortable in our system whatever it is but i'm saying marketing specifically because i think he's that ideal for how they play and what they need and if the if utah says no we need we there's no deal then i'm fine with going your way i was about to say i wonder what the price is with how larry marketing has played to start this year i mean he's averaging like 30 a game the price is going to be everything It's going to be Harris, Ivey, Holland, every pick and swap you have.

Speaker 1 If you want to keep Assar Thompson, which you do, if you want to keep Jalen Durin, which you're goddamn right you do, and the Jazz have Kessler's free agency coming too, and they have Kessler anyway, same draft class, same free agency class.

Speaker 1 If you want to keep,

Speaker 1 you know, those two guys, which you do

Speaker 1 if you're Detroit, then the price is Holland plus Ivey plus Harris plus four picks plus four swaps. But it's the whole thing.
And I might just say fucking do it anyway.

Speaker 2 Bring me Lori Marketing. I understand.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 The Pistons are definitely not mediocre, and we do not have Mike Torico here to interview me. But it is time for our newest segment, Zach's Insights to Mediocrity.
And here it is. This week's Insight.

Speaker 1 Are you a middle-aged man who kind of forgot how to tie a tie or never really even learned to tie a tie that well?

Speaker 1 If you tried to tie a tie, would it take you anywhere between five minutes and four hours and would you get very frustrated?

Speaker 1 Have you watched a YouTube video entitled How to Tie a Tie and paused it step by step by step only to still find you are struggling to tie your tie. Here is my insight to such mediocrity.

Speaker 1 Just keep all your ties tied. Once you tie it once, put it on a hanger, keep it tied, keep the knot, everything.
You never have to think about it again.

Speaker 1 Skeptics, purists will tell you, A, you're less of a man because you can't tie a tie very well or you have to relearn how to tie a tie every time. Who cares? Less of a man.

Speaker 1 I already can't fix anything. That's over.
Number two, they'll tell you, well, you know, like, it's not good for the fabric. It's all scrunched up.
It wrinkles this part of it. Well, what do I care?

Speaker 1 It's a knot and then the little circle at the top goes under my shirt collar. The actual tie, it's smooth, it's fine, no one's going to notice anything.

Speaker 1 I don't have any hassle, I don't have to spend any time, and I save myself the ignominy, the embarrassment of having any clip-on ties. It's like a clip-on, but it's not a clip-on.

Speaker 1 It's a perfect solution. And if you are a mediocre man, that is your insight to mediocrity from Zach Lowe this week.

Speaker 1 Okay,

Speaker 1 I want to get your thoughts on the Cleveland Cavaliers as we talk about the East.

Speaker 1 Really, because I can't figure out how I feel about the Cleveland Cavaliers.

Speaker 1 10-5.

Speaker 1 Garland has only played three games. Struis has missed the whole season.

Speaker 1 11th in offense, 9th in defense, 10th in net rating.

Speaker 1 Feels slightly disappointing given the 60-something games or whatever they won last year.

Speaker 1 My biggest regret from the Simmons House Over-Under podcast is they talked me into taking the over on Cleveland when I initially said under, and then they talked me into it, and I caved.

Speaker 1 I should have stuck with my guns.

Speaker 1 I don't know how to feel about this team 15 games in. How do you feel about this team 15 games in?

Speaker 2 I've kind of felt the same way. And I think what really threw me off was when Darius Garwin did come back and we did get some hints of the Cavs being a juggernaut again.

Speaker 2 And then he's out of the lineup.

Speaker 1 With the same injury. With the same injury.

Speaker 2 yeah so it's like okay now i have to evaluate you as you might just be this for a hot minute and this is a lot of donovan mitchell who's been game and played very well uh it's a lot of evan mobley shifting into more aggression with mixed results and so my mind is caught between the current state of their team the ceiling that we know exists and the playoff questions that also exist around okay evin moble what are these drives going to look like are you catching shooting threes have you changed your shout profile to where you're in the restricted area less?

Speaker 2 What is Jared Allen going to do? Can he hold up defensively? Are you going to trust him to hold up defensively? DeAndre Hunter, more involved, more engaged. That helps you now.

Speaker 2 Does that help you even more later? I just feel like this team offensively, how are they going to consistently create?

Speaker 2 Because who's driving the basketball outside of Donovan Mitchell and occasionally Evan Mobley? Who's getting downhill? Where are the paint points coming from?

Speaker 2 I think last I chat, they were low in points in the paint.

Speaker 2 Do you get a lot of threes? Are these high-quality threes? You know, are you a team that's generating the shots you want, or are these the shots you can get?

Speaker 2 And so, how does that evolve during the season? And then you still have to deal with teams putting Mitchell and Garland in action, Allen, Mobley. I'm just,

Speaker 2 I want them to get healthy so I can figure this out.

Speaker 1 I said before the season, this was the year of the sort of existential crisis for the Cavs. Like, does this four guys work or not? And the answer is going to be final after this year.

Speaker 1 And I don't mean that's championship or bust. I mean, do you get through the playoffs in whatever circumstance feeling like, yeah,

Speaker 1 okay, we finally got an honest run out of this team, healthy, and we think this is good enough?

Speaker 1 I'm worried that this existential crisis is going to hit sooner rather than later, based on how the season has started.

Speaker 1 You mentioned the pain points and the drives. I know Garland's only played three games.
Garland's amazing. All-star level player.

Speaker 1 One of the craftiest, most creative off-the-dribble players, change of pace players in the NBA. Unlocks so much for them.

Speaker 1 It's making me nervous how much, how different they look without him and how much of their. I mean, they're 10 and 5, so they're obviously good anyway, but how much of their

Speaker 1 championship ceiling is so dependent on this guy because there are just so many possessions.

Speaker 1 There's so many quarters where their entire offense seems to be save us, Donovan Mitchell, or just like Sam Merrill goes crazy on on transition threes for two minutes or something.

Speaker 1 And to your point, I looked up the second spectrum tracking data.

Speaker 1 Last year, 51 drives per 100 possessions for the Cavs. That was seventh among all teams.
This year, 40 per 100 possessions. That's 27th among all teams.

Speaker 1 They were 15th in percentage of shots at the rim last year. They're 27th this year.
You can wave away some other stuff, like their defense, I think, is still really good.

Speaker 1 Opponent's been on fire from three. That will normalize.
The Cavs have been a little cold from three. That will normalize.
Garland's been injured. That will normalize.
Struce will get healthy.

Speaker 1 You can wave away all that. And maybe Garland alone solves the paint attack north-south issue.
It's just been jarring. The lack of consistency in that element of their game has been jarring.

Speaker 1 And that's been a little worrisome to me.

Speaker 1 The other thing that's been a little worrisome to me is very quietly, Jared Allen's minutes are down, and the Cavs are trending toward more mobly at center in a lot of these endgame, close game situations.

Speaker 1 And I don't necessarily think that's like a bad thing. Like Evan Mobley's awesome.
He profiles at least as a part-time, if not full-time center for a lot of his career.

Speaker 1 I just don't know what that means for this specific, and maybe Jared Allen playing 25 minutes is totally fine for his player type and his player level. I just

Speaker 1 don't know what that means for this specific iteration of the Cavs because if they decide Evan Mobley at center is a half a game look for us,

Speaker 1 is our A look,

Speaker 1 well, Mitchell plus Garland plus Mobley at center is going to be pretty small.

Speaker 1 And no matter how you fill out the other two slots, whether it's Hunter or Struis or Lonzo or Merrill, it's going to be very small.

Speaker 1 I don't know, I just, it's all interesting to me. There's more questions swirling in my brain than I anticipated.
That's all.

Speaker 2 No, yeah, I'm with it.

Speaker 2 And I think it's one of those things where Jared Allen is still very impactful, but okay, if teams are just going to switch against him on offense and then they're going to try and put him in action on the other end, do we just pivot to Evan Mobley?

Speaker 2 And then if Evan Mobley's the five, are we just going to keep Evan Mobley out of the action and we attack everyone else? And now, Evan Mobley, what are you going to do?

Speaker 2 Do we switch against you on the other end?

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 how do we take this advantage away? I think that's a lot of what teams are trying to do. How do we make, we're going to make Evan Mobley prove it.
We're going to make Jared Allen prove it.

Speaker 2 And that's where my playoff questions are in the the back of my mind.

Speaker 2 Because I know these two are talented and they help this team, but I know the league is gonna try and poke at them to beat the Cavs. And so, how do they accept the challenge?

Speaker 2 Because Evan Mobley attacking matchups is fun, inverted pick and roll is great, post-ups are fun, he's having a career year technically.

Speaker 2 But if we just get to a point where we switch and now we double you, and you have to kick it, are we hurt?

Speaker 2 Are you making enough shots to beat us? Like, that's where I'm just like trying to work through the height of what they can get to.

Speaker 1 Let's, I mean,

Speaker 1 I looked up this morning to remind myself,

Speaker 1 do they have a free draft pick to trade at any point? And they do. They can trade either their 2031 or 2032 first-round pick.

Speaker 1 Plus, they can trade the picks they've already swapped, like that other teams have swap rights on, so they're not great picks, but they can trade swapped picks.

Speaker 1 I haven't started making fake trades yet.

Speaker 1 I just wanted my brain to remember, like, they have at least something if they want to tweak this, but they're also in the second apron, which subjects them to every potential restriction possible.

Speaker 1 So I don't, I don't know, but it's just, my brain is just now like, just put it in the back of your head.

Speaker 1 Okay, you want to bounce around the league with some questions I have for you?

Speaker 2 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about Anthony Edwards, who I think

Speaker 1 One of the more interesting developments of the season has been the Wolves just saying, you're the point guard now.

Speaker 1 Like you were always kind of the point guard, but you're really going to be the point guard. Um, Mike Connolly is going to come off the bench.

Speaker 1 We're going to start DiVincenzo in his spot, who's a two-guard, who can, you know, do run a little bit of the offense. He can come off screens and go into pick and rolls that way.

Speaker 1 We have a power forward in Julius Randall, who can certainly run a lot of the offense in his way, post-ups and pick and rolls, and ISOs. But Ant, you're the point guard now.

Speaker 1 And you look at his numbers, he's averaging 26 points

Speaker 1 and three and a half assists a game. His assists are actually down.

Speaker 1 And yet I watch him play.

Speaker 1 And I was in Minnesota last week,

Speaker 1 watched a lot of their recent games. His pick and roll numbers are up in terms of frequency of pick and rolls.

Speaker 1 Without going further, because I want to kick it to you right away, I watch him play, and I don't care about the assist numbers.

Speaker 1 I like the way that he's playing, and I have my eyes and ears up monitoring how this works because I think it's kind of working and I'm very intrigued.

Speaker 2 I think he's just been a lot more decisive for the majority of this year. He's making quicker decisions.
He's seeing what the defense is giving him.

Speaker 2 And assists or not, you know, when he makes those quick decisions, if you switch, I'm going to attack the other way and get in the paint. If you're in a drop, I'm taking the space.

Speaker 2 And if you're putting two on the ball, I understand how to get to the roll real quick. Him being able to kind of fire through those quicker, I think is really important.

Speaker 2 When he plays quick and he's decisive, it's great.

Speaker 2 It's interesting to see, especially to me, in the back of my brain, is that Denver game where Denver's decided, hey, we're going to put a little bit of these playoff things back on your radar.

Speaker 2 So we're going to mix these coverages up, Anthony Edwards. We're going to put two on the ball, but we're also going to drop.
We're going to throw some switches in and then we're going to show help.

Speaker 2 Are you going to be as decisive against those? Or do you kind of lean back into, okay, dribble, dribble, let me see where my play is. I need to make a shot to try and loosen things up.

Speaker 2 Do we get you in that ballpark? Now, it's Anthony Edwards, so we've seen him prove that he can defeat this in the playoffs. That's why the Wolves made a run.

Speaker 2 But that part gets interesting for me as far as, okay, can we put some of this back on the table to kind of bog him down?

Speaker 2 Because I think ultimately he's going to get a mix of coverages because every great player gets him.

Speaker 1 I will tell you, everyone in Minnesota would say, well, that Denver game, the Schedule Makers, Kurt, both our Denver games here are on back-to-backs for us. You know, just keep it in mind.

Speaker 1 And they're not wrong.

Speaker 1 Decisive is a good way to put it.

Speaker 1 So I looked this up also on the tracking data. Number one, I mentioned, I hinted at this earlier.

Speaker 1 He's getting blitzed the second most of any ball handler behind Luca, which is, and it's a huge, a huge jump for him in terms of blitz rate over his career.

Speaker 1 So teams are deciding, okay, if you're the point guard, you know, we have you have a center who do you trust him enough to throw him the ball 20 feet from the rim and have him make plays?

Speaker 1 We don't think so. We're not that scared of Julius Randle's three-point shot, even though the numbers say maybe we should be.

Speaker 1 We're not that scared of Jaden McDaniel's three-point shot, even though the numbers say we probably definitely should be.

Speaker 1 We are scared of Dante DiVincenzo as the greenest green light in the league, but we're going to put two on you. And I looked up these numbers because you can do this all in the tracking data.

Speaker 1 Like you can look at pick and roll ball handlers. How often do they shoot out of a pick and roll? How often do they pass? How often does do they get an assist directly out of a pick and roll?

Speaker 1 He has his lowest,

Speaker 1 he is shooting on the fewest pick and rolls of his career so far this season. His field goal rate on pick and rolls is down to a career low.
His pass rate is up to a career high.

Speaker 1 His assist rate is at a career low. And that dovetails with the eye test where to me, he's just making the simple play and letting the offense run.
He's getting hockey assists.

Speaker 1 He's getting like three passes down the line assists if you want to call them. They're not even the hockey assists, they're like tertiary assists.

Speaker 1 Like, you put two on the ball, and I've got someone over on the wing who's open. I'm going to swing it to that person.
Maybe they have a better angle to go bear than I do.

Speaker 1 Maybe that swing pass forces help to come from the other side, and that person swings it all the way over to a three-point shooter. There, he's just not forcing anything, and I absolutely love it.

Speaker 1 And one of the reasons I love it is because He knows how to force things when he can and wants to. And I think he's sort of biding his time.

Speaker 1 Like once in a while, when he sees you coming on a blitz, he'll split it aggressively and go into the paint and dunk or make the next play.

Speaker 1 Once in a while, if you drop back, he'll be like, oh, this is my time to take a mid-range jumper. I'm doing it.

Speaker 1 Once in a while, when you blitz, he does one of my favorite things, which he'll drag the blitz out, drag it to the sideline, throw the ball to Gobert, his screener, and then run back and get a handoff from Gobert, which has the effect of the defense is now dropped back into a drop by default because it's a second screen.

Speaker 1 And now I can really attack. And I love when Ant gets his give-and-go cutting energy going.

Speaker 1 He just feels like a guy who's kind of biding his time, experimenting with this style, learning the beats of just, I'm going to be, I'm just going to start the machine and see where it ends up, but I can also still be the machine when I need to be.

Speaker 1 I really like the way he's playing. It's not showing up in the stats other than Minnesota is scoring like gangbusters when he's on the floor.

Speaker 2 Nah, he's making the right reads, making the right plays. And I also like that

Speaker 2 when it's time for him to go, they mix in those post-ups for him. And he doesn't necessarily care where the help is there.
No, I'm going to go ahead and get a shot here.

Speaker 2 We're going to play out of that.

Speaker 2 Getting him some more movement. I love the pass and catch.
I don't know why more teams don't run that. You get the benefit of a pick and roll without the defense knowing.

Speaker 2 You should do more pitch and catch. That's my PSA for the league.
But yeah, Anthony Evers has been dynamic.

Speaker 2 And I think it's when he's playing at a high level and he makes quick decisions, there's not much you can do with him.

Speaker 1 Like, I almost think

Speaker 1 if I weren't so sort of enamored with how he's playing, I would almost say at times he's being too cautious and too passive. Like,

Speaker 1 there have been a few times on blitzes where he's turned the corner, like where he's like, I'm just going to go around this guy and now it's going to be five on three.

Speaker 1 I'm like, could you do that more? Could you hit the roller more instead of always settling for the the pass out to the wing?

Speaker 1 But I think he can do all of those things when he feels like, I don't know, I just really like the way he's playing.

Speaker 1 And he has these moments now every once in a while where if you do drop against him, he'll do the sort of Luca-y thing of, I'm going to pin my defender on my hip. I'm going to keep my dribble alive.

Speaker 1 I'm going to scan the floor.

Speaker 1 And by the way, not only do I have a floater, I have all these crazy step-through pivot moves now where it's like defenses are, he's just, it's like a freaking three Stooges skit.

Speaker 1 He's just guys are just falling over, chasing ghosts, waving at air when he's not there anymore. Some of those moves are that's just hard work, man.

Speaker 1 He's, he's worked, he's mastered a lot of sophisticated footwork.

Speaker 2 But the footwork and the ball, the handles tighter, that combination, especially when he's going quick and he can get right to his spot, it's tough. It's tough to deal with.

Speaker 2 And so, in the post, in pick and roll, against drop,

Speaker 2 when he's in attack mode, especially late in games, you see that. Like, I know he did really bad things to Utah and Utah because they couldn't deal with the footwork in the one-on-one attacks.
And so

Speaker 2 props to Anthony Edwards. I think he's been really good.

Speaker 1 You mentioned the post-ups. He also has, he's starting to run some guard guard pick and rolls with like Jalen Clark or Conley or DiVincenzo to try to get those kind of size mismatches.
I love that.

Speaker 1 I'm just saying, like, if you just look at his numbers, And even if you just look at Minnesota's record, you'd kind of be like, yeah, kind of underwhelming.

Speaker 1 Like, not this like incredible season for team or player.

Speaker 1 I think there's like a quiet potential for a second half of the season or last 50 games of the season and sort of mini ascension to another level that could happen.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, Minnesota has a formula.
They know how to work towards it.

Speaker 2 And I think the offensive improvements, usually I've been hammering the home that, hey, Minnesota has to defend at a certain level or else they can't do it. I don't necessarily feel that same way.

Speaker 2 Now, the defense does get interesting against some of the better teams so far early in the season, but I am a believer that Minnesota is not really a team you want to play with or play in the postseason.

Speaker 2 It's not a fun matchup.

Speaker 1 No, and the defense has been obviously much shakier when Gobert is off the floor.

Speaker 1 The Reed-Randall combo has been a little bit mushy, but Nas Reed is starting to look like Nas Reed again, which is which is great news for the Wolves.

Speaker 1 And Dillingham's getting a little Dillingham's getting his chance, and I and I'm interested to see what he does with it.

Speaker 1 Another quick question for Steve Jones Jr.: Have you noticed that ESPN changed its box scores online?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Are you as annoyed by it as I am?

Speaker 2 I have accepted my fate.

Speaker 2 Now my brain just kind of registers, okay, there's no way this person played seven minutes. That's points now.

Speaker 1 And then I just. The first column on the left is no points.
And minutes has now moved all the way to the end. And my brain is like,

Speaker 1 whoever did this, so good for you. You're mature about it, Steve.
Whoever did this,

Speaker 1 I think you need to have to give a speech at the Sloan conference to explain your reasoning for this. And we all get tomatoes to throw at you in the audience.

Speaker 2 I fucking hate this.

Speaker 1 It's breaking my every morning. My routine, my routine is now twice as long because I'm looking at the box.
We're like, oh, that's weird. This so-and-so only played this many minutes.

Speaker 1 Devin Booker played 19 minutes left. Oh, that's points.

Speaker 2 You've accepted it. Well, I think the other part is because minutes is so far away.
So depending on what you got, you got got to scroll over to find it.

Speaker 2 It's interesting.

Speaker 1 I hate the rebounds, too, because now they have total rebounds. They used to have offensive, defensive, total.

Speaker 1 Now they have total over here in the middle, and then offensive, defensive rebounds are all the way over on the other side of the box score. I hate this.
Why did they do this, Steve?

Speaker 1 This is really, this is like

Speaker 1 a big part of my life is navigating this.

Speaker 2 I will say, though, the rebounds being separate.

Speaker 2 I don't know about that one. I feel like you could have kept rebounds where they were.
Let me do my math real quick.

Speaker 2 I really am not happy about it. Not happy at all? No.

Speaker 1 No. Last question for you, and then I'll let you go.

Speaker 1 Tyler Hero,

Speaker 1 we'll be back soon-ish, I hope.

Speaker 1 You have talked already on the dunker spot with Nakaias about Miami's revamped offense. I've talked a lot about it.
He, I think, I saw he gave his first comments about how he's going to fit into it.

Speaker 1 How do you think Tyler Hero is going to fit into this sort of like totally diminishing the pick and roll offense that the Heat are running?

Speaker 2 He should fit in well.

Speaker 2 It should take a little bit off his plate as far as thinking goes. And he should be able to attack.

Speaker 2 They play with good pace and tempo, so and they move the ball so he knows he'll get it back. So he should be able to make simpler plays.

Speaker 2 And I think for Miami overall, they're going to need his scoring and his ability to drive if he can nail those.

Speaker 2 Because as much as I've loved what Miami does, it does feel sometimes like, whoa, there's a lot of Davion Mitchell. You kind of need him to do this and you need Jaime to do do this.

Speaker 2 And Norman Powell's been great. But having a secondary, like, do you have Powell and Hero being able to kind of drive and kick towards each other, attack defenses when they're rotating?

Speaker 2 I think that's a positive. And

Speaker 2 I think the fact that they've had success with it early should make it easier for Tyler Hero to kind of just buy into it.

Speaker 2 And it takes away some of the let's wait for Tyler Hero to make a decision and pick and roll type plays that haven't been the most fun for Miami at times.

Speaker 1 I think it's going to be interesting, but probably fine.

Speaker 1 And I also think part of Tyler Hero fitting into the system is the ability to play outside of it in a pinch.

Speaker 1 I think that's part of his value is to sort of fit out, as LeBron might say, in an old passive-aggressive tweet. Can I have another gripe for you while I'm griping? Can I gripe?

Speaker 1 Gripe about something else? Absolutely. So it's been City Edition Week the last couple of weeks in the NBA, as I'm sure you noticed, with the City Edition jerseys and courts.

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 1 They wrote City Edition on the court just so you know that it's a City Edition game. I'm not stupid.
Like, I don't need you to to tell me that and waste court space doing that.

Speaker 1 But here's my real gripe:

Speaker 1 every announce team,

Speaker 1 every local announce team talks about their city edition jerseys like they should hang in the fucking Louvre. Like, oh my God, will you look at these peach tree jerseys?

Speaker 1 You gotta get one, don't you, Nick? Oh, my God, the orange is so beautiful. The Cavs are playing in their creamsicle jerseys the other night.
The court is orange. It's orange everywhere.

Speaker 1 This orange, look. Boy, you gotta go to this, dude.
Just shilling for people to buy. The Celtics.
Oh, look at this beautiful white and gold. The Celtics.

Speaker 1 Every Team City Edition jersey is the greatest jersey in the history of the world. No one is allowed to say, actually, it just is another mediocre jersey, or it flat out sucks.

Speaker 1 It's every game is half an advertisement for the city edition jerseys. It's driving me mad.

Speaker 2 You gotta get, you gotta go get one. The wolves.
I don't want any of them. The wolves ones are very nice.
Can I gripe?

Speaker 1 The wolves ones are the prince ones, right? Those are great. Beautiful.
I You just say it one time. Like, look at the beautiful Prince jersey.
You don't need to say it 15 times a game. Yes, gripe.

Speaker 2 I am a fan of alternate courts, so I'm enjoying the matching. One gripe I have.
So Portland has done the airport city edition uniforms again. I'm from Portland.
I love that they do that.

Speaker 2 I would like for them to not play on the red court with those jerseys anymore. It clashes.
It breaks my head.

Speaker 1 I don't like it.

Speaker 2 Fix it.

Speaker 1 The red court being the in-season tournament court, the Emirates Cup court.

Speaker 2 No, no, just their regular home red in the paint court. And so you have these black jerseys that are beautiful with a whole bunch of red.
And I'm just like, why'd you do that?

Speaker 2 Fix it.

Speaker 1 I love this. Do you have any other fashion gripes?

Speaker 2 The Charlotte Hornets court is a little busy for me.

Speaker 1 It's a little funky, right?

Speaker 2 It's a little...

Speaker 2 It's...

Speaker 2 It takes a little bit to get used to. So that's probably my secondary gripe.

Speaker 1 The Heat brought back Miami Vice. That's smart.
Magics, the silver ones are great. The jazz ones with the mountains and the gray scale are great.

Speaker 1 I just don't need an advertisement shoved in my face. Like, these are the greatest.
Not every jersey can be the greatest jersey that every team, any team has ever produced.

Speaker 1 There was a lot of talk. I was at the Wolves Kings game last Saturday, Friday.

Speaker 1 It was Friday because it was an Emirates Cup game about the green court, which in which in person, I have to say, did not look as neon-y as it did on television.

Speaker 1 In person, it was almost a soft, soft, limish kind of green.

Speaker 1 The red courts are, I mean, this is literally what like front office personnel and scouts are talking about before these games is not, everyone's talking about the courts.

Speaker 1 The red courts, the all-red ones that I can't remember who has an all-red one, they are universally hated. Everybody hates them.
They're an eyesore. You can't find one person defending them.

Speaker 2 I feel like they've tried to like make the red different each year and try and replace some red with gray courts. And even then, the red courts don't really work.

Speaker 2 That Minnesota green court was, it was, they were glowing on the television. You could just like see the reflection in their face.
It was a lot.

Speaker 1 I was sitting right behind the king's bench

Speaker 1 and in person, it wasn't so bad.

Speaker 1 I was really excited to sit right behind the king's bench because I was hoping for a like a total meltdown and or just like, you know, some, are they ignoring Doug Christie?

Speaker 1 What's happening on the whiteboard? Is anyone paying attention? It was, it turned out there was no drama. There was not a ton of like engagement, but there was no, it was fine.

Speaker 1 I was hoping for a meltdown. Steve Jones Jr., the dunker spot with Nakaias, a Yahoo production now.
It's on Tuesdays and Fridays, right? What else do we need? You're writing this year.

Speaker 2 I am. I am doing that.

Speaker 1 For Yahoo, right?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yay, me.

Speaker 1 That's not yay, you. Writing is a lot of work.
I should know. I used to do it.

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 1 I tell people, and you're still doing

Speaker 1 your Twitter clips, although not as often as you will in the playoffs, of what's going on in the games.

Speaker 1 This video coordinator, longtime NBA person, I always tell people, if you want to actually know what happened in the game, like you don't want to talk about LeBron's legacy and

Speaker 1 so-and-so, you know, a gutless and whatever sports talk you hate.

Speaker 1 You actually want to know what happened in the game and why one team beat the other team or how one team tried to counter what the other team did, Steve Jones Jr. is your guy.

Speaker 1 The dunker spot is the podcast for you. Steve, man, thank you very much for your time.

Speaker 2 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for today's edition of the Zach Lowe Show. Thanks to Steve Jones Jr.
for his invaluable insight and his time. Thanks to Jesse, Jonathan, and Mike on production.

Speaker 1 We'll be back with another episode soon. We'll see exactly when, but thank you all for listening and watching the Zach Lowe Show.

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