874: Under One Roof

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Speaker 2 Hi, everybody. Ira Hiram.
My voice is weird today. I feel fine.

Speaker 2 Heather loved being Mormon until she and her husband split up. After that, she says, people in the church treated her and her kids differently.

Speaker 2 She realized she would never have the perfect Mormon family. She was still a believer, but she started secretly doing things the members of the church aren't supposed to do.

Speaker 2 She slept with men she wasn't married to. She drank.

Speaker 2 But on the surface, she kept up appearances, lived a double life for years before she quit the church. A double life with occasional moments where she thought she might get found out.

Speaker 3 You know, as a Mormon person, you're not supposed to drink coffee. And that seems fairly innocuous, fairly simple.
But I

Speaker 3 was slipping and I was drinking coffee. And I had gotten myself a coffee before I picked up my kids from school.
And they were young enough that they wouldn't understand or get it.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 oh my gosh. Yeah.
And my friend saw me and like waved and started to walk over to the car.

Speaker 4 Saw you come out of a coffee?

Speaker 3 Nope, she just saw me in the car pool line standing there, but I had a hot coffee in my car and it was fall.

Speaker 3 And that meant like if I unrolled the window, the smell of coffee was going to waft out right and smack her in the face.

Speaker 3 And so I started to panic and I unrolled the window and I can remember like the panic.

Speaker 3 And you just learn to lie so easily and so quickly. And I think I said, oh, I'm not drinking it.
I just love the smell in fall. Don't worry.
Don't worry. I just love the smell.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 she accepted that and said, oh, I do too. Isn't it so tempting? And we both just kind of sat there.

Speaker 3 Like, obviously, I didn't buy a coffee for the smell. You know, it was just a conversation that was completely fake.
And we both engaged in it.

Speaker 4 And so when she said, oh, it's so tempting,

Speaker 4 did you take it as her saying,

Speaker 4 this this is our secret, you know, I love you.

Speaker 2 We're good.

Speaker 3 I took it as her saying, I'm going to pretend to believe your lie because it's an easier path for both of us. And I think my kids probably did that a lot too, pretended to believe my lies.

Speaker 2 This is actually why I wanted to talk to Heather. Our Saturday is about how different members of the family perceive the same events differently.

Speaker 2 And what was happening inside Heather's family during those years seems like such an extreme example of that, because she was trying to deceive her kids.

Speaker 2 She was raising three daughters on her own, raising them in the church, she says, to be the perfect, pure vessels of Mormonism for their future husbands. Her words, not mine.

Speaker 2 This was partly because it was the only way she knew how to be a mother. But also, Heather loved her own childhood growing up in the church.
She wanted to give that to them.

Speaker 4 And Heather wasn't just still a believer.

Speaker 2 She's the kind of try-hard, can-do believer who became Relief Society president in her ward, which meant that she ministered to the women in about 150 families.

Speaker 2 Heather stood at a pulpit every Sunday, teaching Mormon doctrine. And she did that knowing that her kids sometimes saw her break the rules.

Speaker 2 Like, for example, after her divorce, she stopped wearing the special Mormon undergarments that adults are supposed to wear. Her kids knew that she didn't wear them.

Speaker 3 Because they would see me change and I didn't have them on.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 4 do you remember remember any moments where they saw this and they asked?

Speaker 3 No, they never asked.

Speaker 3 They never said a word.

Speaker 4 What do you make of that?

Speaker 3 I don't even know what to make of that. First, I feel like they probably felt confused.

Speaker 3 And also, I would think resentment because I was a strict mom and I held them to the standard of appearances at church and I was, you know, I taught from the pulpit, I taught gospel doctrine, and then for them to go home and see

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 the words coming out of my mouth did not match like the simplest of actions, like the type of underwear I was wearing.

Speaker 4 Do you think that they weren't saying anything? Because it's just one of those things when you're a kid sometimes where

Speaker 4 you don't even know what it means, but you just know, like, don't go there.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think that's exactly what it was. I think it was laden with meaning, and so they knew not to ask.

Speaker 2 Mostly, Heather tried to keep things on the down low from her kids.

Speaker 2 She kept a bottle of vodka hidden in the house, high on the third shelf of a closet with sweaters and other clothes that she was sure the girls didn't go into.

Speaker 2 And she says there were no visible clues of her secret life in the house.

Speaker 3 Until my business partner bought me a Keurig.

Speaker 2 Keurig, the little coffee maker.

Speaker 3 The little coffee maker, the counter coffee maker. And I immediately went out and bought a tear with like all of the herbal teas and hot chocolates because those are kosher.

Speaker 3 And I made sure that those were on display.

Speaker 3 And like for years, every time someone would come to my house, the first thing I would do is like gesture to the curie, to the coffee maker, and say, we love this for hot cocoa for the kids.

Speaker 3 Like I would lead with that. because it was just such to me a blaring

Speaker 3 you know symbol of rebellion and

Speaker 2 slipping.

Speaker 2 Where were the coffee pods hidden?

Speaker 3 They were deep in the pantry in like,

Speaker 3 honestly, it's a Cheez-Its multi-pack box because like with the kids' lunches, you get the bigger boxes and then you could just take out all the single serves and you just put them in it.

Speaker 4 And then was the scheme that like once the kids were off at school, you were home alone and you could put the little capsule in and make yourself a coffee?

Speaker 2 Or were you doing it? I was doing it first thing in the morning.

Speaker 4 You would do it first thing in the morning.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I was doing it first thing in the the morning and they could smell it. And it's, I don't know how to explain it.
It's like

Speaker 3 I assume they wouldn't know what it was because they had never been exposed to it. They didn't see coffee at their friends' houses.
They didn't.

Speaker 2 Oh. Like this is the world.

Speaker 3 It's not like coffee with a world with coffee. They don't live a world with coffee.
So you can get away with lying about a lot of things.

Speaker 4 Oh, so your 10-year-old isn't smelling coffee and thinking it's coffee. Your 10-year-old is smelling coffee and just thinking.

Speaker 3 It's a smell.

Speaker 3 And I mean, she might have been making making the connection all along, but it was a don't ask, don't tell, don't acknowledge policy. Your oldest is Ashley.
She's Ashley. She's 22 now.

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I want to ask her. Yeah, you should.

Speaker 2 So we reached out to Ashley, who was 12 the year they got the Keurig. Oldest sisters were nine and eight.

Speaker 2 She came into the studio, and from the moment I brought up the Keurig, her memory was totally different from her mom's.

Speaker 3 Guess who gave her the Keurig?

Speaker 2 Who? Me.

Speaker 2 Heather, Heather, as you heard, remembers it was her business partner. But Ashley said no.
She had money she'd earned babysitting.

Speaker 2 It was the first big grown-up Christmas present she ever bought her mom.

Speaker 3 I can't believe she didn't tell you that I was the one that got it. It was a big deal.
I saved up my money to get her this Keurig.

Speaker 4 And when you bought the Keurig, what did you think it was for?

Speaker 2 For coffee.

Speaker 2 Ashley said she got the idea for this at her friend Elsha's house. Elsha and she were best friends and depaid partners, and their moms got to know each other and went into business together.

Speaker 2 Elsha's family was ex-Mormon, so Ashley would see Elsha's parents drink coffee or go to the store or the gym on Sunday, which Mormons aren't supposed to do on the Sabbath.

Speaker 2 And they seemed normal and happy, and those things did not seem harmful to their family at all.

Speaker 3 Like, I was so fascinated by having a glass of wine at dinner, like seeing parents just like having a glass of wine at dinner. And I don't know how to explain it.

Speaker 2 It felt cool, like very cool. And,

Speaker 3 you know, I, I want my family to be like this. Like, I, I was with them a lot growing up and

Speaker 3 having

Speaker 3 a Keurig in the house was so normal. And seeing that, I'm like, why can't we have that?

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 4 So you bought it for your mom, understanding my mom drinks coffee. I'm buying this for her so she can have coffee.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Like, I want you to drink coffee. Like,

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 3 like me buying her a Keurig, I think she kind of thought, oh my gosh, like

Speaker 3 Ashley understands me. Like, I'm, you know,

Speaker 3 seen by my daughter and supported in a way. Like, it wasn't, you know, I was on the same wavelength.
Like, yeah, let's get a Keurig.

Speaker 2 She had no idea that her mom didn't remember it this way at all.

Speaker 2 But she said she was so young. It's really possible that she never told her mom, this is for you to drink coffee.
I know you drink coffee.

Speaker 3 Honestly, because I was so, I was 12.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't.

Speaker 3 I guess I wouldn't up and say that, you know?

Speaker 4 So you think what might have happened, I just, I'm trying to get this straight. So you think, like, you might have given her the Karen,

Speaker 4 understanding what the Karen is for, but she didn't get the hint.

Speaker 3 I think maybe that's, that's what's going on here.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Or she didn't want to believe that I saw that side of her.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's so interesting. She couldn't understand what you were trying to show her because she wasn't ready for it yeah

Speaker 4 i mean your mom said to me that you and your sisters were properly raised mormon children and she was betting on the fact that you hadn't been exposed to coffee at friends houses or elsewhere so when you would smell coffee at home you guys wouldn't even know it was coffee oh she said that yes okay

Speaker 3 yeah i think she's underestimating what i knew about the world at that time

Speaker 2 so Ashley and her mom were in this situation where they each saw why the Karek arrived very differently.

Speaker 2 But at the time, each of them thought they both saw it the same way, which is so weird that I wondered about Ashley's sisters. Again, they were eight and nine when the Keurig arrived.

Speaker 2 We called her youngest sister. Hello?

Speaker 3 Blue?

Speaker 2 Who remembers the Keurig this way?

Speaker 8 We only used it for like hot chocolate, chocolate and

Speaker 8 I can't. Yeah, I don't think she used it for coffee at all.

Speaker 4 So when Ashley got her the Keurig,

Speaker 4 as far as you understood, that was a machine for cocoa.

Speaker 8 Yes.

Speaker 2 Hot chocolate machine.

Speaker 4 Your mom explained to me that she was drinking coffee out of it all the time. And she was just betting on the fact that like you just didn't know what coffee smelled like.

Speaker 4 Is that possible?

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah, no, that could definitely be true because

Speaker 8 I didn't know what coffee smelled like and I didn't notice at all.

Speaker 2 So that's crazy.

Speaker 8 I didn't know that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, your mom said she was drinking coffee in the house all the time, making it all the time.

Speaker 4 What?

Speaker 8 Wow, yeah, I had no idea.

Speaker 8 That's mind-blowing to me. Yeah, I totally thought she only started drinking it like a couple years ago.

Speaker 8 I mean, when we left the church.

Speaker 4 Can I blow your mind with one other piece of information?

Speaker 8 Yes, please.

Speaker 4 Ask your sister Ashley if she knew.

Speaker 8 Did you know, Ashley?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 I'm like actually mind-blown that you thought that she just started drinking coffee like a few years ago. You had no idea?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 What?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what?

Speaker 8 Wait, that's crazy. Yeah, because

Speaker 8 I thought it was such a huge, like a huge sin. Mom would never do that.

Speaker 2 That's insane.

Speaker 3 Oh my gosh, this is blowing my mind.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I'm mind-blown. I can't believe that.

Speaker 3 I can't believe that.

Speaker 2 Dad.

Speaker 8 That's insane. That's insane.

Speaker 2 This is as good a time as any to tell you that Heather is on a TV show. If you know the show, I'm guessing that maybe you've already figured that out.

Speaker 7 Heather is Heather Gay, one of the real housewives of Salt Lake City.

Speaker 2 Kind of an audience favorite from that show.

Speaker 2 And one of the things that comes out on that show, and in two books that Heather's written, is the shame that she sometimes still feels, the fear of judgment, but she's not following the church's rules.

Speaker 2 What was interesting about talking to Heather's three kids, I also talked to her third daughter, Georgia, was that they felt none of that. None.

Speaker 2 They'd always seen themselves as one of those Mormon families that bends the rules.

Speaker 2 They'd always stopped to do things like pick up Mexican food after church on Sunday, even though you're not supposed to get takeout on Sabbath.

Speaker 2 Their mom not wearing church undergarments wasn't a big deal to them. They thought that rule was silly anyway.

Speaker 2 Ashley always figured she and her mom both felt hemmed in by the church.

Speaker 3 I just understood her. You know, I could see that it just wasn't her, you know, that she wanted something different.

Speaker 2 Asha and I picked up the phone one more time to call her mom.

Speaker 3 This is like the best day ever.

Speaker 2 I'm really enjoying this.

Speaker 8 Hello?

Speaker 2 And I actually told Heather what she told me

Speaker 2 that she was the one who bought the Keurig. Like I said.
And that she did it knowing that her mom drank coffee.

Speaker 2 Trying to say, go ahead, drink coffee. Coffee.
At home.

Speaker 2 That's fine with me.

Speaker 2 This, of course, was news to Heather.

Speaker 2 I don't know why it's making me emotional.

Speaker 8 It just feels like you're kind of giving me permission to, you you know, be myself. And

Speaker 8 I didn't know all of that behind it. I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 You didn't? That makes me want to cry too.

Speaker 2 I didn't.

Speaker 3 I really,

Speaker 3 I can't believe we never had that conversation. That was totally like

Speaker 2 I was.

Speaker 8 I felt like I couldn't embrace it because I felt somehow that I was letting you down, letting the church down, letting down your sisters by being like brazen in something that I wasn't allowed to drink.

Speaker 8 And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig.

Speaker 8 And I was already a bad mom because I'd gotten divorced and I was already a bad mom because I was working. I was just trying to like cling to the standards that I thought,

Speaker 8 you know, that I'd been told to find a good person from a bad person.

Speaker 4 But it's funny, by giving you the Keurig, Ashley is trying to say, like, I know you drink coffee. Do you think you just weren't ready to hear that from Ashley?

Speaker 8 I wasn't ready to hear that from, I didn't admit it to myself. So definitely wasn't ready to hear it from my daughter who I,

Speaker 8 you know, was supposed to like

Speaker 8 keep shielded from all of those things. And when I say keep shielded, not from coffee, but from

Speaker 3 my,

Speaker 8 you know, failings.

Speaker 2 Oh, no, Mom.

Speaker 3 I just, that breaks my heart that you,

Speaker 3 it all breaks my heart.

Speaker 2 But I,

Speaker 3 I just always, yeah, I've understood you. And we, I feel like we were in the same boat.
And when you finally were like, guys, I don't want to go to church anymore.

Speaker 3 I felt this sense of relief for myself, but also for you that you don't have to live a lie just for us, you know?

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it started with the Keurig. Started with the Keurig.
The caseway.

Speaker 2 No, the side.

Speaker 3 apply it.

Speaker 8 Wait, I still have that Keurig.

Speaker 2 I still use it. That's the same one.

Speaker 2 Wait, that makes sense. Can you try the Keurig?

Speaker 2 People in the same family, people who live under the same roof, can see things so radically differently. Even simple things like a coffee maker.

Speaker 2 Today in our program, we have another very loving family. Two parents, two kids.

Speaker 2 and they're in this situation, living through the same events, seeing the exact same things, that they all have very different takes on. They try to get on the same page, but it's hard.

Speaker 2 WBEZ Chicago, this is American Life. I'm Ira Glass.
Stay with us.

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Speaker 2 It's As American Life Act 1, a house Divided.

Speaker 2 There's a spot in Mackenzie and Bella's house that's perfect for eavesdropping on their parents. A small sitting nook on the second floor at the top of the stairs.

Speaker 2 Where the parents are downstairs talking, in the kitchen, or in their bedroom, sound travels up, making its way through the stairwell.

Speaker 2 So you can hear everything that's going down, or you sit in the rocking chair that's right across the door. So

Speaker 2 they'll have the door closed, and you can hear murmurs.

Speaker 2 We're kind of in the shadow, like, I know what's going on, but I don't know exact things. That's Mackenzie.
She's 17. The girls' parents, Jenny and Fidel, almost never fight.

Speaker 2 They're one of those families that like spending time together. They do arts and crafts together, go on road trips and don't kill each other, that kind of family.
The girls are close to their parents.

Speaker 2 So all this disagreement is abnormal in their house.

Speaker 2 But since last November, when President Trump won the election, They've been in a stalemate over whether Fidel should self-deport, return to Mexico, where he hasn't lived in 30 years.

Speaker 2 The girls exist on the periphery of this stalemate, living their high school lives during the day, dipping in and out of their parents' discussions at home at night.

Speaker 2 Sometimes like I'll be upstairs and they'll be discussing stuff and like I'll turn down my music to make sure that I'm not going crazy

Speaker 2 thinking about what they're talking about because they seem to be it's important. Here's Bella.
She's 15.

Speaker 2 Every once in a while when I'm like watching TV or something and I'm sitting on the couch, I'll like pause my show and I'll like listen to him for a few minutes and then I'll be like, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 That's what's happening. And then I'll turn my show back on and yeah.

Speaker 2 One of our producers, Valerie Kipnis, was interested in how families are making this decision over whether to self-deport.

Speaker 2 And especially the families where people do not agree on what to do or how to handle this. She's been following the Riveras for most of this year.

Speaker 2 The parents were definitely, emphatically, not in agreement. We live outside Raleigh, North Carolina.
Janet Rivera is a high school math teacher.

Speaker 2 She's a citizen, born here, which you might think would mean that her husband, Fidel, who's from Mexico, would have a path to citizenship. But there's a long-standing part of immigration law.

Speaker 2 Fidel crossed into the States illegally back when he was 18, left, and came back into the States.

Speaker 2 And because of that, he cannot get citizenship through Jenny until he spends 10 years living outside the United States. So he's been living in the U.S.
without legal status for 30 years.

Speaker 2 And for most of this year, he's been in a prolonged, high-stakes dispute with Jenny over whether to stay here.

Speaker 2 Valerie wanted to see how making this decision would reverberate around the walls of this one house.

Speaker 2 Not just how Jenny and Fidel would figure out what to do, but how their kids, Bella and McKenzie, would deal with the stress of this choice that was being discussed for months and could upend their entire lives.

Speaker 2 Here's Valerie.

Speaker 3 In spite of being incredibly close, McKenzie and Bella are a classic case of opposites. Mackenzie has a high, girly laugh, long hair, gold hoops, a senior in high school.

Speaker 3 Bella, just two years younger, wears baggy shorts and a soccer jersey and pitches her voice lower in this yeah, whatever way when she speaks. Here's Bella.

Speaker 2 I just like to sit in my room and exist. Like, honestly, I'm sitting on the couch watching TV and then she comes and blocks my view and is like,

Speaker 2 Is this outfit good? Like, do these shoes match this outfit? Like, does my hair look good? Yeah.

Speaker 2 But yeah. But I'll be honest with her.
I'll tell her if her, like, hair looks frizzy or something, but yeah.

Speaker 3 On cue, Bella points to her big sister's neck, where her necklace has gotten tangled.

Speaker 2 Your necklace is like. Okay, thank you, Queen.

Speaker 3 Upstairs are the girls' bedrooms in a little hangout area. Downstairs is the site of their parents' disagreement.
about whether their dad and the family should leave the country.

Speaker 3 What the girls have been calling the situation. Could you tell me about some of the moments that it has come up?

Speaker 2 Like about the situation?

Speaker 2 I think that most recently it's just been like every day. It's mostly because like.

Speaker 2 Is she singing?

Speaker 2 She's singing. Yeah, she's singing.

Speaker 3 The person singing in the background is their mom, Jenny. She's in the room next door, wearing noise-canceling headphones, singing the 2015 hit single, Fight Song.

Speaker 2 okay okay

Speaker 2 well she does that a lot every once in a while i'd be sitting upstairs and then i hear her voice coming through the floor and i was like what is happening i thought it was like a ghost in my room like because my grandma told her it's a good way to distract your mind yeah

Speaker 3 so she does that by singing jenny's been singing a lot this past year ever since donald trump won the election because she's stressed about Fidel.

Speaker 3 She just wanted him to make a plan. Either he should move to Mexico Mexico or they should move together as a family.

Speaker 3 The one thing they couldn't do from her perspective was to keep doing what they had been for the last 16 years,

Speaker 3 living under the radar.

Speaker 9 That wasn't working for me anymore. Just doing what we're doing wasn't working.
I needed to have a plan in place in case something happened.

Speaker 2 Jenny is a rule follower.

Speaker 3 For 16 years, she worried when Fidel drove to work without a license that he'd get into an accident and their insurance wouldn't cover it. Or he'd get stopped by police and end up in detention.

Speaker 3 The only way Jenny had been able to sleep at night was because the lawyer had told them that if Fidel got picked up in that situation, it wasn't hopeless.

Speaker 3 They could go in front of a judge and argue for Fidel. He's got a great job, no criminal record, dad of two, married to a U.S.
citizen. Maybe they could make their case for him to stay.

Speaker 9 We had a

Speaker 9 one card to play.

Speaker 9 That's what I call it. It's just like we had one ace in the hole that we could play.

Speaker 3 In Trump's second term, that option would probably go away. And if Fidel got picked up, he'd probably be detained and deported.

Speaker 3 Jenny couldn't see a path forward.

Speaker 3 Fidel, however, saw it differently.

Speaker 3 Trump hadn't even taken office yet. He thought she was overreacting.

Speaker 10 It's like, are you crazy?

Speaker 10 I'm not going to go nowhere. Even like I told her, it's like

Speaker 10 I'll be here for 30 years and it's nothing happened. It's like I never be in the jail.

Speaker 10 I never be in bad accident. I just go to work and coming back.

Speaker 10 Why do you need to worry about too much?

Speaker 10 You know, I was thinking, I'm going to prove you're wrong. It's not going to happen.

Speaker 3 When I first started talking to Fidel and Jenny over the phone, this is where they were at an impasse.

Speaker 10 Right now, she's the one.

Speaker 10 Like, what are we going to do?

Speaker 2 What are we going gonna do?

Speaker 10 I think some part of my brain is like a lack of something.

Speaker 3 Because you feel like there's time pressure?

Speaker 2 Yeah, the time and the

Speaker 10 wife is driving him nuts.

Speaker 2 And my wife is driving me nuts.

Speaker 2 My wife is

Speaker 2 getting mad because he's sticking his head in the sand.

Speaker 10 Yeah, sticking my hand in the sand. But like I say,

Speaker 10 I try to not think in that way.

Speaker 10 like I say,

Speaker 10 we are totally different persons.

Speaker 3 These are the conversations the girls are overhearing.

Speaker 3 Fidel and Jenny have been married 17 years.

Speaker 7 Happily.

Speaker 3 They met salsa dancing. He stepped on her foot.
She said, yo, me and ice cream. They spent the night talking at Denny's.

Speaker 3 These days, they still salsa dance in the living room and corner off weekend mornings just for talking.

Speaker 3 When When I asked Fidel to describe who's who in the relationship, this is how he frames the answer: I always tell her it's the positive and the negative.

Speaker 10 Yeah, it's the positive and the negative.

Speaker 3 Because you're an electrician, it's like funny that you're saying positive and negative, because that's.

Speaker 10 Yeah, it's like how the battery works, how the cars work, right?

Speaker 10 You know, because I always

Speaker 10 think positive, you know, but she always looked at the reality.

Speaker 10 She's the one, you know, saving money. She's the one

Speaker 10 making sure everything in the house works. All the paperwork is right, make sure the girls got

Speaker 10 the right school.

Speaker 3 Jenny posts to-do lists around the house. He executes, crossing each item off as he goes along.
That's how they both like it.

Speaker 9 He is the fun dad. He does all the fun things.
He takes the kids out for ice cream and he spoils them. And

Speaker 9 if it's the disciplinarian, that's me.

Speaker 9 He is not the disciplinarian at all.

Speaker 3 Fidel's style is more to try and tease the girls into listening to him. For instance, Mackenzie likes to wear short shorts.
So one day Fidel said, hey, if you're going out like that, I'll do it too.

Speaker 3 He grabbed scissors and cut off the bottom of his t-shirt and made it into a crop top. Then he reached for his shorts.

Speaker 10 I cut them and I stuck it up all the way up, like stuck it up all the way up. Like, hey,

Speaker 10 you're gonna go to the street like that hey let me go too we can go together she embarrassed what'd she say

Speaker 10 she I'm not gonna go with you like that

Speaker 2 my dad is like he's like

Speaker 10 very like obnoxious Isabella so with you annoying me

Speaker 10 even Jennifer say stop being annoying and even Magessa say even stop annoying

Speaker 2 it's it's

Speaker 10 it's love

Speaker 10 I don't know if it's annoying to them, but it's low.

Speaker 3 In January, on the first day of President Trump's second term, he declared a border emergency, moved to end birthright citizenship, and suspended refugee admissions.

Speaker 3 Within weeks, the TV was full of ads. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Christy Noam telling immigrants, Leave now.
If you don't, we will find you and we will deport you.

Speaker 3 You will never return. Jenny had tried to find out everything about the Trump administration's plans.

Speaker 3 She'd read about Project 2025 and worried that if Fidel got picked up, he'd get stuck in a detention center and it would ruin their lives.

Speaker 3 She'd heard horror stories, people being treated cruelly, getting abused. She couldn't stop picturing Fidel in there, in a cell with nowhere to sleep, no way to call.

Speaker 3 What if he came out a completely different person than he went in? She didn't want that for her sweet goofball of a husband. And would they have to spend their life savings to get him out?

Speaker 3 One couple they were friends with, the husband had gotten picked up.

Speaker 9 They are over $50,000 in debt to attorneys. So you have destroyed, absolutely destroyed this couple's life.

Speaker 3 But Fidel told her he was willing to take the risk. He wanted to stay.

Speaker 9 And I said, so

Speaker 9 what do you want to do if you get picked up? tell me what that looks like so if we're just going to take our chances and we're going to stay what happens if you get picked up

Speaker 9 during that conversation he said i don't want you to spend any money to get me out if he were to get picked up for anything

Speaker 9 and i told him that

Speaker 9 he needed to tell his children that

Speaker 9 because

Speaker 9 If something were to happen, they would never forgive me. They would never forgive me for leaving him in there.

Speaker 9 Even if it was a decision that he and I made together, they would never forgive me because I'm the fixer for all these kind of things.

Speaker 3 Fidel felt that unless ICE was here here, like in their small suburban town an hour outside Raleigh, North Carolina, there really wasn't much to worry about. He figured the odds were with him.

Speaker 3 While they were having these conversations last winter, ICE had arrested less than half of 1% of the 14 million undocumented people in the country.

Speaker 3 Besides, Trump was still saying that he was going after criminals, and Fidel didn't see himself as a criminal.

Speaker 3 He was a tax-paying dad, a successful electrician, helping build public schools in the area. If Fidel got detained and deported, it'd be disastrous, but it was just so unlikely.

Speaker 3 Jenny wasn't going to wait around for Fidel to agree with her, to make a plan.

Speaker 3 She started prepping on her own, holed herself away in her home office, and got to work, putting together these massive purple binders of pay stubs, receipts, paperwork.

Speaker 9 His birth certificate, a copy of all of his passports and identification,

Speaker 9 copies of our tax returns.

Speaker 3 Hundreds of documents in the case of his arrests or detainment that she could use to prove that Fidel had been here, working, not committing crimes for the past 30 years.

Speaker 3 She labeled the binders in case of emergency.

Speaker 3 Fidel found it all a little bit.

Speaker 10 Annoying, like annoying. Like, she wanted me to go, you know, like she wanted me to go.

Speaker 3 Did it hurt your feelings, this idea that she might want you to go?

Speaker 10 I guess, yes, you know, like,

Speaker 10 yes, like, why do you want me to go? It's like, my life is in here. That is, it hurts.

Speaker 3 Did you ever tell her that it hurt your feelings?

Speaker 10 No, I think it's like a

Speaker 2 this is

Speaker 10 like a proud, how you say proud? Proud thing. I'm not gonna tell you what hurts, you know.

Speaker 3 Mackenzie and Bella could understand both parents' arguments over whether he should go, but it was easier to side with their dad. He was saying there was nothing to worry about.

Speaker 3 Everything was fine and things could stay the same.

Speaker 2 Me and Bella both swayed to the side of keeping my dad. in the United States.
We kind of just didn't want him to go.

Speaker 2 So we kind kind of like just I don't know if we like avoided it more like we just like didn't really think about it I guess.

Speaker 2 It'd be a shadow and I definitely feel like it would come out though when we were like at home and like if it we weren't doing anything, if we were being a family, it would be like oh this might come to an end.

Speaker 3 They'd been sitting with some version of this dread for over five years.

Speaker 3 They first learned that their dad might have to move to Mexico back in 2020 when Donald Trump was running for for his second term.

Speaker 3 They were in fifth and seventh grade and their mom Jenny was scared of what Trump would do with immigration in a second term and felt like she had to prepare the girls who at that time had no idea at all that their dad was undocumented or that he might have to leave.

Speaker 3 Of course, this was life-altering news.

Speaker 2 I was crying. Yeah, I know that.

Speaker 3 Were you crying too?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Definitely. I distinctly remember trying to hide the fact that I was crying by like putting my hand right here and then I would like lay down on like the desk in my arm like that.

Speaker 2 Like I did not want to be crying.

Speaker 2 So yeah, thing is just, I don't like the feeling of like it on my face really. So when I try to cry, I try to like get it before it gets like down to here area.
So

Speaker 3 their parents asked them not to tell anyone, which made this big news feel even heavier. Suddenly, they felt different from the other kids at school.

Speaker 2 Things started to also just make more sense. Because like, also, people like describe, like, when you're married, like, the man's supposed to drive.

Speaker 2 And then I'm like, oh, but like, my dad doesn't drive. Like, and then it's like, oh, that's probably why, because he doesn't have a license.

Speaker 3 Fidel does drive. But when the family's together, Jenny's the one who drives.

Speaker 2 I started understanding why we didn't travel as much. Like, I heard my friends all the time saying they traveled to like...

Speaker 2 like Canada or like Europe or whatever. I don't know what a five-year-old is doing in Europe, but whatever.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 it was like, I could hear them traveling and I was like, why don't we ever travel? And so I kind of started understanding why.

Speaker 3 With this new understanding came fear. Mackenzie started having nightmares about ice.

Speaker 2 They come and like break into the house almost like a movie.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 we know that they're coming, but we're all hiding in the house behind the TV.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 they

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 my dad

Speaker 2 and like I'm standing hiding away but I still see him and they're just like taking him away

Speaker 3 that was in seventh grade she's older now but the nightmares returned when Trump took office again and she started overhearing her parents arguing the situation was back

Speaker 3 do you guys ever talk about it amongst yourselves I actually don't think we've talked about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, we don't really talk about it. I think that we both do the same thing where we try to like avoid it in conversation.
I don't think we've ever like brought it up willingly, just to talk.

Speaker 2 Because it's just like

Speaker 2 we're gonna sit there and be sad.

Speaker 3 Instead, they dealt with the tension in the house by distracting themselves.

Speaker 2 I think there was at one point Mackenzie had a running phase where she ran every night. I ran every night.

Speaker 2 during the winter time because like Trump had just won and then all these things were just ending in my head. And she doesn't like running in the lake.

Speaker 2 She doesn't like people looking at her while she runs. Exactly.

Speaker 2 So we'd, when it'd get dark, she would run and I would ride my bike next to her because I cannot run for anything. Like it's so bad.
But yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you guys talk to her? Um, I think when I would be walking, we would talk, but it would be about school drama.

Speaker 3 They'd run and bike for as long as they could until it was too late to be out. And only then would they go home, trap past their parents watching the evening news, and go upstairs.

Speaker 2 It's not like I don't care about what's going on. It's more like it's like just sad.

Speaker 2 And it's like, well, like if you're gonna, you're gonna be sad forever or like you're gonna block it out and just move on or something.

Speaker 3 But the Trump administration did not want anyone to block out what they were doing. They wanted their immigration policies policies splashed across headlines and social media.

Speaker 3 They wanted them embedded in the nation's psyche, especially in families like this one.

Speaker 3 In March, the headlines were, Kilmar Brego-Garcia was mistakenly deported from Maryland to the notorious Seacop prison in El Salvador, along with 260 other people.

Speaker 3 The Trump administration added a self-deport button to the Customs and Border Protection app. Meanwhile, McKenzie was working weekends at Jersey Mike's.
Bella was on the wrestling team.

Speaker 3 Sheen Fidel practiced grappling in in the living room. He drove the girls to soccer games most weekends, cheering them on from the sidelines.

Speaker 3 Jenny taped little cards all over the front door on red construction paper. What to do if ice comes knocking.

Speaker 3 Bella's 15th birthday was coming up, her quinceinera year. A big deal.
Fidel and Jenny kept asking her about plans and ideas for the party, but she just kept pushing it off.

Speaker 3 At one point, her parents even asked her, Do you want a quincei or a car instead? Kinsei, Kinsei, she said.

Speaker 2 I wanted one,

Speaker 2 but then I was like,

Speaker 2 I was thinking about it and I was like, what if he's not actually like there for it? Like,

Speaker 2 the dad is like a big part of a kinsei. So I was like, what if he's like not even there to like celebrate it with me? Do I really like want that? And I was like, I don't want a kinsei without him.

Speaker 2 So I didn't want to go through like. all the trouble of planning it and then him not being there.
So I was like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 3 So she called it off.

Speaker 10 I was not happy with that. You know, it's like

Speaker 10 I just want to do the party. I just want to see Isabella happy.

Speaker 10 But it is what it is. You know, we need to plan in everything and have that stress.
And

Speaker 10 for some reason, happen, and they're like, oh, your dad is not going to be there in the party. I think that'd be pretty bad thing to happen.

Speaker 2 Valerie Kipness.

Speaker 2 Coming up, the pressure in the family increases and the kids overhear something they haven't heard before. That's in a minute.
Chicago Public Radio when our program continues.

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Speaker 2 This is American Live.

Speaker 5 Today's program, Under One Roof.

Speaker 2 Stories of families going through experiences where different family members see things very differently from each other.

Speaker 2 We're in the middle of Valerie Kipnis' story about the Rivera family trying to figure out if they should self-deport. We pick up in the spring.

Speaker 3 The stalemate between Jenny and Fidel was getting worse. Every day, Jenny went online, trying to think through a possible move.

Speaker 3 She scrolled through houses in Mexico, tried to find towns they could afford with expat communities. She looked up English language schools for the girls who don't speak Spanish.

Speaker 3 She showed all this to Fidel, and he went along with it, begrudgingly. He didn't think it was necessary.

Speaker 3 And all these months of pressure, of arguing, culminated in this one fight when Jenny and Fidel found themselves standing across from each other in the living room, yelling.

Speaker 3 No one can remember what started the fight. What they do remember is the yelling.

Speaker 10 I think the kids are upstairs and they hear that stuff.

Speaker 3 How do you know?

Speaker 10 I'm pretty sure they hear we yelling, pretty loud stuff.

Speaker 10 You know, we yelling, pretty loud.

Speaker 10 Each other. It's like.

Speaker 10 I think in the top of my head, it's like, aren't you crazy? It's not going to happen if we yell at each other.

Speaker 3 Was that unusual for you?

Speaker 10 Yes, that is inertial because, like, say, 17 years, we never yell at each other, right?

Speaker 10 That is when my head starts thinking, like, she's

Speaker 10 overstressed.

Speaker 10 And it's like, this is when now is when my head starts to kick in. It's like, I need to do something, you know, I need to,

Speaker 10 I need to start thinking.

Speaker 3 The truth was, Bidell's resolve was starting to unravel. He had always believed that until job sites near him got raided, he was okay.
There was nothing to worry about.

Speaker 3 But by the spring, ICE arrests in North Carolina had more than doubled since the same time last year. He started counting heads at work.
Was anyone missing?

Speaker 3 He started getting nervous whenever he was driving or when he saw a cop.

Speaker 3 In May, the Trump administration created Project Homecoming, offering people $1,000 and a free plane ticket to leave the country.

Speaker 3 They regularly posted triumphant videos on social media of agents with gators and guns, blasting doors, raiding people's homes and workplaces, of people in shackles being let onto planes, often to the tune of trolling music.

Speaker 3 Vidal watched those videos and others that were going viral, and they had the effect on him that the Trump administration probably wanted. They scared him.

Speaker 10 I think I saw it in the TV when the kids separate with the parent. That videos where they grab the mom and separate the mom, and the kids stay crying, or

Speaker 10 the mom never coming back, and the kids thinking, what are I going to do? It's like, I don't want that feeling for my kids. I don't want to give them that

Speaker 10 feeling.

Speaker 3 One day, Mackenzie saw reports on social media that ICE was in their area. She texted her parents.
Fidel texted her back a goofy face emoji and don't worry about it.

Speaker 3 But it bothered him that she was thinking about this stuff. I called him in June to check in.
His friend's brother, who worked nearby, his job site had just been raided.

Speaker 3 And Fidel was preoccupied with two bills in front of the North Carolina legislature that would force state agencies, like Highway Patrol, to cooperate with ICE.

Speaker 10 Almost all last year when Jennifer told me, it's like, hey, we need to make a plan. It's like, oh,

Speaker 10 I don't think it's nothing going to happen. But now it's

Speaker 5 especially with these two bills.

Speaker 10 It's like, oh, I think it's...

Speaker 10 I think my wife is right.

Speaker 3 Wow, Fidel, last time that you and I spoke, you were kind of like, I don't know, she's a bit dramatic. Like, I don't know if I need to do this.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's a big change

Speaker 10 yes it's

Speaker 10 you know every day I was like a little bit processing it's like I need to start thinking and

Speaker 10 like I need to like change change my switch the last straw for Fidel was alligator Alcatraz I'm not

Speaker 10 I'm not going to be in one of that places.

Speaker 10 That is my switch. When Jennifer told me

Speaker 10 five months ago, hey, they're going to build detention centers. And even I told her, it's like, aren't you crazy? They're not going to build.

Speaker 10 And three months later,

Speaker 10 like, we got the first one.

Speaker 10 You know, and I'm pretty sure maybe it's going to be more.

Speaker 3 After all those months, all those conversations, Fidel finally agreed that he needed to leave. Maybe with the family, but probably alone.
So in June, he sat Jenny down.

Speaker 10 The Saturdays or Sundays, Sundays, we sit on the couch in the mornings. And

Speaker 10 I told her, it's like, okay, fine, I'm going.

Speaker 10 I gotta go.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 10 And it's like, you sure?

Speaker 10 And I say, yes.

Speaker 10 Like, the face changed right away.

Speaker 3 Like, she was relieved?

Speaker 10 Like, a relief on her face. Like,

Speaker 10 I think finally he understands. Like, finally.

Speaker 10 Yeah, but yeah.

Speaker 10 It's good. It's fine.

Speaker 3 This is what Jenny had been asking for all along. She's had such a hard time watching the Trump administration's war against immigrants escalate.

Speaker 9 But I've already been living in that fear and panic for 16 years, and I can't take anymore. And maybe if I was a different person, I could wait it out.
But I'm not. I am who I am.

Speaker 3 Something I think a lot is like people who do support Trump, like, if they were to think about this, they would feel like this is the point

Speaker 3 is for people to be scared, it's for people to leave to self-deport. Right.

Speaker 3 And it feels like, is there a part of you that feels like this is like admitting, like, raising the white flag and being like, you won or no?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Feels like you're giving up.

Speaker 9 It absolutely does.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 9 if you'd been living in the purgatory that we've been in for all of these years

Speaker 9 and you weren't able to make any plans for your future, for your kids' future, for your life,

Speaker 9 at some point, everybody is going to raise that white flag.

Speaker 3 And so I am.

Speaker 9 I just can't do it anymore.

Speaker 3 Meanwhile, Fidel had spent decades feeling like even though he entered the country illegally, he was here now.

Speaker 3 And he'd do things by the book, work hard at his job, pay into Social Security He'll Never Get Back, support his kids' soccer team and Girl Scout troops, hoping that the people of America would see what he and so many other people were doing, that they were already contributing to this country and embrace them and make them full citizens.

Speaker 3 But now, he realized that deal was never going to come. In fact, a lot of people didn't even want him here.

Speaker 3 He couldn't stop thinking about how hard he'd worked to make it in this country, picking oranges and tobacco. He'd started as a sweeper at his electrical company, worked his way up for years.

Speaker 10 I think that is one of the reasons I feel like angry. It's because you are

Speaker 10 in the top of your

Speaker 10 career.

Speaker 3 But I was at the peak of his career, running projects and crews.

Speaker 10 Like, I worked so hard.

Speaker 10 I worked so hard, you know, work

Speaker 10 start from the bottom and go all the way up.

Speaker 10 and now

Speaker 10 i'm gonna start again but now the difference is i'm 50 years old i'm not 30 years old

Speaker 10 my

Speaker 10 my legs is not gonna be the same and my hands is not gonna be the same

Speaker 3 Next, Fidel and Jenny told the girls their dad would leave after Christmas. And the girls didn't really take it seriously.
They'd been talking about Fidel leaving for months.

Speaker 3 This just felt like another update, so far away. For months, Jenny had been gaming out their Mexico options, and they weren't great.
There was the money.

Speaker 3 She had just a few more years, five years, before she could get her full pension. If she moved away now, they could live comfortably in Mexico, but probably never could come back to live in the U.S.

Speaker 3 again. They couldn't afford it.
So, she decided she probably wouldn't move. It wasn't worth it.
As for the girls, she couldn't find them a public school with a good English-speaking program.

Speaker 3 But she wanted this to be a family decision. So Jenny called the girls into the living room for a family meeting.

Speaker 2 We were all sitting downstairs, like over there on the couches. I'm sitting in the middle and my mom's like over there on that couch by herself and my dad's sitting next to me.

Speaker 2 I think I'm on the floor. Yeah, I think you're on the floor.

Speaker 3 Jenny held up her iPad. On it was the listing for a house in Mexico.
She was like, check out this house I found. Maybe we could all move down to Mexico together.
Would you want to live there?

Speaker 3 Go to school there?

Speaker 3 Mackenzie, the older sister, was the first to respond.

Speaker 2 I think I said no to begin with. I was like, I don't want that.
Didn't we have a whole thing, Bella? She was so adamant that she did not want to move. Like, oh, yes.

Speaker 2 It was bad. I remember not wanting to leave the country at all because,

Speaker 2 I mean, this was, this is is my only place that I've been born here raised North Carolina

Speaker 2 so it was like you're gonna make me leave when I've dedicated my work in my school to North Carolina and to United States that didn't make any sense I said I don't want to leave this makes like I was like it doesn't make any sense for me to want to go because I'm like this is my senior year this is my last year at the school.

Speaker 2 You're not giving me enough time. And then my mom got mad and she responded at me.
Your dad is like dealing with this. It's causing me stress.
It's causing the family stress.

Speaker 2 It's like intense around here because of what's going on.

Speaker 2 And then Bella didn't say anything. I don't think my dad's really said anything.
I think me and my mom were like just rapid firing against each other.

Speaker 2 And then Bella kind of came and defended me, I guess. She was like, I see why Mackenzie doesn't want to go.
And you need to just let her be for a little bit.

Speaker 2 And my mom was like saying, oh, you need to come back here. We still need to talk.
And then my dad probably said the same thing. And I was like, I don't really have anything to say.

Speaker 2 I don't want to go and I don't want to hear about all your plans about moving.

Speaker 2 I said no to everything in general. Like moving, thinking about moving, thinking about my dad leaving.

Speaker 2 Thinking about

Speaker 2 the house, thinking about like,

Speaker 2 I don't know, everything.

Speaker 2 I Was like saying I don't want anything to happen. I just want it to stay how it is

Speaker 2 I Mean I was chill with whatever like honestly that's what I said. I was like I don't really care what happens like I do care I do but

Speaker 2 You can literally take me out of the country. I could care less where I go

Speaker 2 Like I'll stay here. I'll leave.
I'll do online school, I don't know, I'll just, I didn't really, like,

Speaker 2 care for it, so I do care. Stop looking at me like that.

Speaker 2 Why are you looking at her like that? I'm not looking at her like anything. She just like sounds like weird.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 was gonna do whatever my mom thought was best. Like leaving or saying that's what I was gonna do.

Speaker 2 And I get why Mackenzie didn't want to leave either.

Speaker 2 Like I think my mom was really upset about the fact that she didn't want to leave, but I get why she didn't because she is literally like one year away from 18.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you're not going to, like, really make any new friends at a new school for senior year.

Speaker 3 Jenny had always thought that this was where the girls would land. The girls felt like Jenny was asking a question she already had the answer to.

Speaker 3 Fidel sat there quietly during this whole conversation, not saying much at all. Did you secretly wish that everyone said, Okay, let's all go, or no?

Speaker 10 Honestly, yeah, I say, Yeah, everybody, let's go. You know, like if

Speaker 10 Mackenzie said, Yeah, we can go, and Bella said, Yeah, we can go, and Jennifer said, Yeah, we can go. It's like double my head, sure, let's go.

Speaker 10 But that is like movie stuff. Then, the real life is not gonna

Speaker 10 happen.

Speaker 3 Fidel's sister went to see the house in Mexico. It's four bedrooms with a small pool, not far from the beach.
She called him afterwards and told him it was really nice, a smart investment.

Speaker 3 When Fidel heard, his heart dropped. There was no backing out now.
He'd have to be there to sign the documents in September, in three weeks. He was really leaving.

Speaker 3 Jenny was out of town and asked Fidel to be the one to tell the kids he'd be leaving in three weeks. He was nervous to tell them, so he kind of sidestepped the whole conversation.

Speaker 3 Just said, so you know I might be leaving, right? They were like, yeah, that's what we've been talking about. And then he dropped it.
A few days later, Jenny called the girls.

Speaker 2 And then I'm sitting on the couch one day. I'm like, sister's on a call with my mom.
And then my mom says something about him leaving in September. And then Mackenzie tells me,

Speaker 2 you know, Fief's leaving in like mid-September. And I was like, what?

Speaker 2 and then she goes and checks her calendar on the phone she's like that's next month yeah I was like what the heck guys I didn't know this

Speaker 3 I visited the girls in August weeks before her scheduled departure Mackenzie and Bella were processing this sudden new reality in real time I mean

Speaker 2 like in a year I had time to like get myself kind of like ready for it. Like I was I could spend a little bit more time with my dad like

Speaker 2 but he's leaving in a month and there's not really much you can, much you can do

Speaker 2 in a month with your dad.

Speaker 2 And that's literally how probably I'm going to think about it. When he's gone, I could have done more.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like he's just going to disappear. Like he's going to be here one day and he's going to be gone.

Speaker 3 They were just starting to get their minds around it. For their whole lives, it had been the four of them.
Now Fidel would be gone. What would graduation look like?

Speaker 3 And what about wrestling on the weekends? And soccer, which was such a big part of their lives. Fidel was a soccer parent.
He'd go to every game.

Speaker 2 So I realized he's not gonna be there for like another tournament. So,

Speaker 2 yo,

Speaker 2 oh, soccer season, and he's not gonna be here. Well, he'll be here for like the first part of it.
Barely.

Speaker 2 I hope at least he gets to come to like one more game. Maybe.
He'll be going to a couple?

Speaker 2 But yeah.

Speaker 2 I remember it was the other day and my my mom was still gone and she was gone and then my dad was like in

Speaker 2 some place. I don't know.
He was outside or something. And I realized she's going to college next year.
My mom's the only one that's gonna be here'cause my dad's gonna be gone.

Speaker 2 So this is what my life is gonna be like for like three more years like I'm not gonna like have anybody to just like talk to

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 you guys are spreading telepathic messages to one another what are they no I'm not spreading telepathic I'm just sad because I didn't even like really think about that okay guess I didn't think about how Bella was gonna be here all by herself without people

Speaker 2 yeah

Speaker 2 well I'll have my sports to like distract me from things, and

Speaker 2 I'll probably like go to the gym or something.

Speaker 2 I have my friends and everything, and I talk to my best friend about, like, we'll tell each other everything,

Speaker 2 but it's not gonna be the same as my sister.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess that's the same for me. I don't, well, I personally, I don't tell my friends everything.
I mostly just tell Bella everything.

Speaker 3 The plan was, Jenny would stay with the girls. She would work for five more years so she could get her pension, retire.

Speaker 3 Then she'd join Fidel in Mexico, in the city of Merida, in a nice little neighborhood with lots of expats. Far from his family in Mexico, but that's sort of what he wanted.

Speaker 3 He didn't want to feel like a failure, coming back to the same place all these years later.

Speaker 3 Jenny and the girls would visit him on school breaks. As his departure date approached, the girls started hugging their dad a lot more.

Speaker 3 Bella even watched one of his favorite TV shows with him, The Voice.

Speaker 3 Fidel's been acting differently too. He's imparting all the last-minute wisdom he can think of: how to change the car oil, how to fix the stove, how to get the barbecue to work just right.

Speaker 10 Make sure you know what is a screwdriver, and you know what is a

Speaker 10 wrench.

Speaker 10 But

Speaker 10 dad is this part that got saddened, like angry because I'm gonna leave my kids.

Speaker 10 I think that is the step when I got angry with myself. It's like, oh man, I need to leave my kids.

Speaker 3 How do you think your relationship will be if you're not over here?

Speaker 10 That is gonna be like a challenge.

Speaker 10 She's gonna be here, I'm gonna be there. And you know, some days they're gonna feel

Speaker 10 alone. And some days I'm gonna feel alone.

Speaker 10 And she's gonna be, I'm pretty sure some days she's gonna be really frustrated because she got two teenagers and I'm gonna be over there by myself.

Speaker 10 Like, no,

Speaker 10 pretty much no responsibilities, you know.

Speaker 10 She's gonna have all the work.

Speaker 9 He sucks talking on the phone.

Speaker 2 He does.

Speaker 9 I love my husband. He has a lot of great qualities, but he's the on the phone.
He's like, uh-huh.

Speaker 2 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 9 It is 100%,

Speaker 9 100%

Speaker 9 going to suck for the next five years.

Speaker 9 There's no question about it.

Speaker 9 I wake up in the morning and I have my coffee while I talk to my husband.

Speaker 2 And I talk to him before I go to bed at night.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to manage without him. I really don't.

Speaker 3 Can you imagine your life there?

Speaker 10 I see my house, big house, empty.

Speaker 10 I think my only

Speaker 10 way to spend my time is working, like

Speaker 10 work the most I can, like

Speaker 10 12 hours, 13 hours, 14 hours.

Speaker 3 Why? So you don't have to be alone in the house, or why?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I don't need to be alone, and I don't need to be depressed or thinking on something else.

Speaker 2 Just

Speaker 10 stay busy working.

Speaker 3 Since Trump took office, 1.6 million people have self-deported, at least according to the Trump administration. The $1,000 that they offer anyone who self-deports, Fidel refused it.

Speaker 3 He found it insulting. He didn't want his name part of any official list being used to prove Trump's success.
Instead, he decided his own terms of departure, when and how.

Speaker 10 I can leave

Speaker 10 for the front door, not the back door. You know, I can leave in my own terms.
I leave happy, I leave my family

Speaker 10 happy.

Speaker 3 He had planned to take off quietly, but Jenny and the girls refused to let him disappear without a trace. as if he hadn't been here all this time.

Speaker 3 So they threw a farewell Fidel party, invited all his friends, his co-workers, and their neighbors to celebrate the last three decades.

Speaker 3 On the day of the party, he disappeared for a while. When he showed back up, he had a massive piñata of Donald Trump, custom mate.
They hung it in the backyard. Padell swung at it, laughing.

Speaker 3 And Bella finished it off.

Speaker 2 Pidel left in October.

Speaker 3 He pushed back his departure date so he could be there for his 17th wedding anniversary and for the first soccer tournament of the season.

Speaker 2 Valerie Kipnes is a producer on our show. A week after Fidel left, Ginny heard from the school that a father of two kids there was picked up by ICE and is in detention now.

Speaker 2 We'll meet again.

Speaker 7 Don't know where,

Speaker 7 don't know when.

Speaker 2 But I know we'll meet again

Speaker 2 some sunny day.

Speaker 2 Barbara was produced today by Lily Sullivan. Dana Chivez edited Valerie's story.

Speaker 2 The people who were together today's show include Fia Bennon, Michael Kamade, Emmanuel Jochi, Suzanne Gabber, Cassie Howey, Khana Joffrey Walt, Seth Lind, Mary Marge Locker, Tobin Lowe, Catherine Raymondo, Stone Nelson, Nadia Raymond, Anthony Roman, Ryan Rumery, Alicia Shipp, Christopher Sutala, and Diane Wu.

Speaker 2 Our managing editor, Sarah Abdurrahman, our senior editors, David Kestenbaum, our executive editors, Emmanuel Berry.

Speaker 2 Special thanks today to Kathy Capp, Ashley DeAcevito at American Families United, Vanessa de Hakas-Torres, and Belle Woods.

Speaker 2 Heather Gay, who you heard at the top of the show, has a new documentary series about the Mormon church that premiered this week called Surviving Mormonism. It's on Bravo.

Speaker 2 This American Life is delivered to public radio stations by PRX, the Public Radio Exchange.

Speaker 2 A reminder, if you like our show, if you listen to us a lot, please consider signing up as a This American Life partner.

Speaker 2 Do it for the stuff you get, bonus episodes, an archive of greatest hits right in your podcast feed, ad-free listening, or do it simply because you want us to be able to keep making the show.

Speaker 2 Join at thisamericanlife.org life partners. Support for this American Life comes from Keurig coffee makers bringing families together and defying the Mormon God for 30 years.

Speaker 2 I'm kidding. They're not an underwriter.

Speaker 2 Thanks as always to a program's co-founder, Mr.

Speaker 2 Tori Malatilla, who loved his mother like crazy, thought she was the best until that day that he walked into her kitchen and saw a certain appliance there.

Speaker 8 And a good mom doesn't have a Keurig.

Speaker 2 I'm Araglass. Back next week week with more stories of This American Life.
But I know we'll meet again

Speaker 2 some sunny day.

Speaker 2 Next week in the podcast, This American Life, a teacher hands her class a white cardboard box. It's closed.
They can shake it. but they can't open it.

Speaker 6 They have to guess what's inside.

Speaker 6 And then she takes the box away.

Speaker 3 And I get sick when I'm wondering.

Speaker 2 You get sick? I'm a lardeck to wondering.

Speaker 2 I'm a lardeck to wondering. Stories of people who just want to know.
Next week on the podcast or on your local public radio station.

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