And, This is Steve Bannon

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Speaker 7 I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me.

Speaker 8 In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why.

Speaker 9 They were climbing trees and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

Speaker 3 She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing.

Speaker 11 I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement.

Speaker 8 Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 13 Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another.

Speaker 14 It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other.

Speaker 13 I'm Ellie Acani, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope.

Speaker 15 I've always wanted us to have therapy, so this is such a beautiful opportunity.

Speaker 13 Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 10 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 10 And this is Steve Bannon.

Speaker 10 Well, Steve, thanks so much for taking the time to be here.

Speaker 10 And I want to take this opportunity to sort of, you know, go back a little bit and talk about your history, a little bit about your motivations and where you see this country and, for that matter, the world going.

Speaker 10 But it's impossible not to note the world that we're living in in relationship to everything happening with the markets, everything happening with

Speaker 10 tariffs, everything happening with CR and a potential government.

Speaker 16 Don't be giving tariffs stinky. I don't want to start off with giving it stink eye already.

Speaker 10 We'll stress. tariff guy.

Speaker 16 I'm a tariff guy.

Speaker 10 I appreciate that. And we'll see.
We'll see. We'll stress.

Speaker 16 The purpose I want to do this is I want to convert you to be a tariff guy also. This is part of the process to unwind you from being a globalist to make you a populist nationalist.

Speaker 16 It's a long journey. It's a long journey, but I think you'll get there.

Speaker 10 This is part of the deprogramming, is it?

Speaker 10 I appreciate it. And by the way, for the record, I'm going down your rabbit hole right here.
I'm not an absolutist as it relates to being against tariffs by any stretch of the imagination.

Speaker 10 And I thought it interesting where we, what I think Biden tripled tariffs on aluminum and steel, which is getting a lot of attention in this country today as relates to Canada.

Speaker 10 And Democrats weren't screaming and yelling about that. So

Speaker 16 I mean, Federman, look, you've got,

Speaker 16 you know, by the way, thanks, governor, for doing this. I really appreciate it.
I wanted to have this conversation for a long time. You know, two of the

Speaker 16 three best economic populists in the democratic party who i think are kind of on an island one of the best is roe kahana roe's economic patriotism which we always kid him is just ripping off navarre and my economic nationalism is uh is you know he's an economic populist uh so is federman Fetterman just announced, you know, we're here today during the CR.

Speaker 16 Federman just announced he would support the CR if it came in as

Speaker 16 Federman's a populist and then Sherrod Brown. Sherrod Brown, I think, has been an economic populist for a long time.

Speaker 16 there are very strong voices in the Democratic Party, I think.

Speaker 16 Unfortunately, as a populist, I think they're kind of on an island because it really hasn't been the center of the conversation with the Democratic Party.

Speaker 16 But I think those three are pretty good as far as populism goes.

Speaker 10 And Steve, I mean, in terms of populism, then it's a good segue. How do you define that then? What's, I mean, is it a principle?

Speaker 10 Obviously, tariff may be a component part, but how do you define populism, particularly in relationship to their reflective lens in terms terms of

Speaker 10 populism?

Speaker 16 Obviously, we believe in subsidiarity. We believe in bringing power back to the grassroots level, right? We're very anti-elitist.

Speaker 16 And one of the reasons is we think the elites in this country, you know, the highly educated elites, the political class, the Wall Street, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, all of it, have really forgotten the underlying kind of principles of the country and kind of left working class people, regardless of their race, gender, ethnicity, sexual preference.

Speaker 16 You know, you pick it, they've kind of forgotten.

Speaker 16 And that's why there's such a big push for kind of these populist economic policies to look to put the lens is not just America first, but American citizens first. And it goes with tax policy.

Speaker 16 It goes with tariffs. It goes with bringing manufacturing jobs back.
It's nationalistic in the fact that

Speaker 16 not isolationists, but understanding that we got to make it right for American citizens and particularly for the greatest resource we've had or ever had, which is the American working man and woman.

Speaker 16 So it's to push every decision as down low low as possible and to get everything back to a grassroots level.

Speaker 16 And one of the keys to populism and kind of about the sovereign will is that the use of human agency, that just don't sit there and say, you know, somebody else has got congressman's got to do something or a senator's got to do something or governor's got to do something.

Speaker 16 You have to use your agency. Only, and I see this in the Democratic Party now, the people saying, do something.
Do something. I think that's a lesson that we learned after President Trump.

Speaker 16 And look, you know, we disagree on this, but President Trump won the 2020 election. And we were kind of shattered as a movement when he left Washington, D.C.

Speaker 16 And we had to go back to basics to say, you know, it can't be somebody else do something. You know, we had to do something.

Speaker 16 And that's where we went back to really a pure populist movement to go at the grassroots, the precinct strategy, and kind of rebuild ourselves from there.

Speaker 10 Well, and I appreciate the notion of agency that we're not bystanders in the world. It's decisions, not conditions, that determine our fate and future.

Speaker 10 And that fundamental notion of agency, I think, is important more broadly. And I think that goes to some of the issues around victimization.

Speaker 10 And I see a lot of that, respectively, on the right increasingly, even with Trump often approaching things from that sort of mindset.

Speaker 16 What do you mean for Trump?

Speaker 10 I think there's sort of the grievance narrative that comes from Trump,

Speaker 10 this notion, there is their sort of a victim grievane. Well,

Speaker 16 they did try to put him in prison for 300 years, right?

Speaker 10 They did try to bankrupt him.

Speaker 10 If a guy had

Speaker 16 ever had a set of grievances, they did steal, according to us, and we're firm believers, the 2020 election, which I think worked out better that providentially that he was able to come back with that gap.

Speaker 16 Because I think you're seeing a much more,

Speaker 16 not just new and improved, but somebody that's much more in command of these decisions and really stepping up in a way that we could have never done before. But no, I don't think it's grievances.

Speaker 16 I think it's reality. I mean, they tried to, no one in American history has the system ever come after.
And I think think that's one of the problems with the Democrats.

Speaker 16 You got in a position of having to defend. Remember, I come from a working-class Democratic family.

Speaker 10 Kennedy Democratic family.

Speaker 16 Kennedy Democratic. I was telling some people last night,

Speaker 16 I said, we didn't know any Republicans. There were just, we were Irish, Catholic, working-class phone company, firemen, you know, Navy enlisted people.
You didn't know any Republicans.

Speaker 16 They just weren't in your, you know,

Speaker 16 we were in the South also, which is all, you know, machine Democratic politics. So you didn't know anybody.
You didn't know anybody then.

Speaker 16 And so to see what President Trump had to go through and to see how we've actively changed the Republican Party to actually the working class party in this country, there was a poll done last spring that showed that we as the Republican Party are the working class party and viewed as such, and that President Trump's the leader of that working class party.

Speaker 16 And the Democrats have become both not just the Wall Street elitists, but also the kind of the credentialed class with

Speaker 10 the poor underneath it, of which we're now trying to obviously recruit uh not just the working poor but actually the poor itself to join our broadening coalition well i appreciate it i want to and i'll i want to talk more about that because i think it's interesting just as one of the points of of contrast with you and frankly trump himself right now is on some of the issues of tax policy in relationship to this notion of who are you for and you've been pretty critical about uh the proposed tax, the extension of the existing tax cuts that disproportionately favor the wealthiest.

Speaker 10 And you are making the point that it should disproportionately focus on the middle class and workers.

Speaker 16 You know, Governor, I'm not so sure.

Speaker 16 Let me get there. So in 2017, I was a big advocate of that and the first Trump tax plan of actually raising the rates

Speaker 16 on the upper bracket and doing actually more to the lower bracket in the corporations. And it was not just what I thought was right, but also politically expedient.
At that time, in the spring

Speaker 16 of 2017, it was really Bernie Sanders and

Speaker 16 Pocahontas that was going to be the

Speaker 10 number Warren.

Speaker 16 Elizabeth Warren is going to be Pocahontas, we call it going to be the challengers coming from the populist left.

Speaker 16 And I thought it was very important to nip that in the butt at the time and raise the brackets. Now, I think history shows that they can show you the math that

Speaker 16 doing all of that actually worked in unison and got us that great

Speaker 16 2019. Today, and President Trump, I think and Besson are pretty upfront that this is the last chance we're going to get at a supply side cut of that $4 trillion.

Speaker 16 I think the $2.6 trillion of joint, you know, $400,000 and below of couples, and I think you add another couple of hundred billion dollars for maybe the pass-throughs to the LLC so the entrepreneurs get caught up, but that additional trillion dollars, unless it can be shown mathematically, and I think people are working on this, that consume, you know, right now, I think the top 3% consume almost 50% of what's going to the country.

Speaker 16 Unless that you're concerned that that would kick you into a major recession if that went away,

Speaker 16 I'm pretty adamant about that. You shouldn't, the upper bracket shouldn't get it.
And even some of the corporations shouldn't get it if they're just going to do stock buybacks.

Speaker 16 But additional tax cuts should go as President Trump promised. No tax on tips, no tax on overtime, and particularly no tax on Social Security.

Speaker 10 Yeah, but I mean, his current proposal doesn't add up then in that respect blows the deficit and continues those corporate tax cuts and continues the tax cuts to the wealthiest so it runs and i'm not

Speaker 16 and i hang on i think i think i think what we're not to be argumentative no i appreciate it we want to have an open dialogue i think when you look at besson and charlie gasperino had a pretty good piece in the new york post today about this if you add in if you if you look at the growth rates and this predicated on growth you look at a growth rate two and a half to three percent right if you look at uh what we're trying to do on cutting federal spending, in addition, Doge, which is the waste, fraud, and abuse, and you look at additional revenues externally from tariffs, you can get to, and what Besson's trying to do is take the deficit from 6.5% of GDP down to 3.5% of GDP.

Speaker 16 So this not this out-of-control explosion of $2 trillion in deficits, which we as Republicans are about to sign off on today, just so your audience understands. This CR today,

Speaker 16 the House, will approve the Biden Kamala Harris spending for this year.

Speaker 10 They're locking it in.

Speaker 16 They're locking it in. And that's a good question.

Speaker 10 And how you can't be, I mean, how are you out there supporting that then?

Speaker 16 Well, because right now, I think with everything it do, and by the way, it's just, it's that. Plus, it's a $2 trillion deficit.
Okay.

Speaker 16 I think the reason we're doing it is that the House has not gotten their act together to get these single subject appropriations bills done.

Speaker 16 They are committed to do that working with Democrats in the spring and summer of this year for fiscal year 26.

Speaker 16 And I think to keep the

Speaker 16 government open, to keep President Trump hidden on all cylinders, to keep Doge at work in federal court overnight, the federal courts are coming after Doge. This is on at least information.

Speaker 16 We expect many more lawsuits about that. But I think in the effort to do it, we're prepared.
And you know,

Speaker 16 we hate any CR. This one, we've hated for a long time.
We're prepared to go along. The president says he needs it.

Speaker 16 What I love about Johnson for the first time, they just announced they're going to vote on it this afternoon. He thinks he's got the votes in the House to do it.
Then they're going on recess.

Speaker 16 They're sending over to the Democratic Senate with a play me or trade me.

Speaker 10 Which thing they need seven votes on the Senate side in order to get this done. Otherwise, we got a government shutdown, yet another one.
What is your over-under on the prospects of that?

Speaker 16 I think it's interesting.

Speaker 16 I think the Democrats have to make a decision of whether they think it's better to keep it going and keep the resistance they've got in the legislative part, but also in the courts, or let Elon Musk, you know, potentially unchain him with the Doge groups on

Speaker 16 who's a necessary employee versus who's an unnecessary employee. I think it's the first time because traditionally the Democrats have always been for keeping the government open.

Speaker 16 I think they put them in a real conjurer. And I think this is Johnson's, it's going to be high-stakes poker, I think, this afternoon.
But people should understand this is a...

Speaker 16 This is a bitter pill to swallow for us because we have argued, this is the whole reason Kevin McCarthy, a guy you know very well well from California, we got turfed out as speaker.

Speaker 16 It was all over, it was the deal he cut with Biden that gave President Biden two years and unlimited no debt ceiling to spend and run up. And McCarthy then didn't deliver on the single subject

Speaker 16 appropriations bills and he got turfed out. So

Speaker 16 your audience should understand these are huge fights on our side of the football all the time about spending.

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Speaker 10 So locking in the Biden-era budget, or at least extending it and kicking it out, it's the last thing I expected to see coming from

Speaker 10 your side of the aisle, or at least in the mega movement, but also just even you saying something complimentary about Speaker Johnson. You've been pretty critical of this.
I've been very critical.

Speaker 16 I think we're, I think we're, I've been very, up until today, I've been very critical about we're in this job because of overpromising and underperforming.

Speaker 16 And I think you got to, in leadership, I think now, and I think it's a long way from him being out of the woods is that now because you got, you got only, he's got six months now, he's got to deliver like a real budget with real cuts because just back for your audience.

Speaker 16 The Doge effort is waste, fraud, and abuse. Okay.
They're kind of like shock troops or special forces. And people can either say they're great or whatever.

Speaker 16 I would like to see a little more definition of what they've actually found. Okay.

Speaker 10 All of us would.

Speaker 10 Transparency. I agree with you.

Speaker 16 More transparency. But I think, but that doesn't, to me, get to the, to the, to the, the meat of it.
Cause I think you're going to have to have programmatic cuts.

Speaker 16 And I've been a big proponent that those programmatic cuts have to start in the defense department. I was a naval officer for eight years.
My daughter went to West Point.

Speaker 16 I'm not a dove, but I think I've been a big critic of the defense.

Speaker 16 We're at a trillion dollars now. And that's one of the reasons of this post-war international rules-based order.
We just can't continue on with NATO. We got to have allies that really pitch in here.

Speaker 16 But you got to start in the Defense Department.

Speaker 16 You have to do programs and billets to get the budget deficit to 3.5% of GDP, roughly under a trillion dollars, so that we can start

Speaker 16 somehow we can begin to finance this. Because right now, that's the driver of inflation.
You know, Biden,

Speaker 16 they just restated their numbers from the fourth quarter. And traditionally, the Biden thing has always been, the labor numbers always been different, right?

Speaker 16 It's been, you know, one thing, and we've criticized that for a long time. This one, the shocker.

Speaker 16 And I don't think that, and I've said this, that the guys on the economic team did enough for President Trump of pushing this. The inflation number went from 2.2% to 4.2%.

Speaker 16 And it really didn't even get mentioned in the business press. And I said, that shows you the underlying kind of burning inflation.

Speaker 16 And the reason of that is the finance, you have to finance now essentially a third of the debt every year.

Speaker 16 So you're talking, I don't know, $10, $12 trillion of government securities you have to sell at higher interest rates. That's what's driving inflation, plus, I think, a too loose Federal Reserve.

Speaker 16 So you had both a fiscal overspending and a monetary loose money. We've got an inflation problem that's not going to be easily solved.

Speaker 16 The way to solve inflation is you have to cut, I believe, federal spending dramatically. You have a Keynesian kind of stimulus all the time and you have to do it.

Speaker 16 And that's going to lead to painful conversations. It just is because if Doge doesn't find all this waste, fraud and abuse, right?

Speaker 16 And they're saying now they think they can get a trillion dollars, which would cut the deficit in half.

Speaker 10 You can't get a trillion, back to your point, without significant programmatic cuts. And I appreciate the defense frame, which is anathema.

Speaker 10 I mean, the CR increases the defense spending and locks in a higher rate.

Speaker 10 But you can't get there without cuts to something that you, to your credit, have said, you know, you can't put a quote-unquote meeting.

Speaker 16 I came out of the Pentagon, and this is why I was adamant about Elon Musk, what we called crossing the Potomac.

Speaker 16 There was a point in time that people were saying, well, let Pete Hickseth handle the Pentagon. Elon, I said, no.

Speaker 16 If you're going to get programmed, first off, waste farmer views, I think everybody has to get

Speaker 16 everyone. And not just that, the Pentagon's got to step up.
People have to know that if the way, because it's always rumored, you know, they can't pass an audit. It's $2 trillion

Speaker 16 of.

Speaker 10 $2 trillion just for the damn F-35, which

Speaker 16 that's programmatically, but there's $2 trillion on the audit. I think there's two trillion assets they can't put their hands on.

Speaker 16 Jon Stewart was just lighting up one of the undersecretaries of defense, I think, a couple of weeks ago about this.

Speaker 16 So you have to do that, but then programmatically, and this is why I think President Trump's hemisphere, the shift to hemispheric defense, which is from Greenland to the Panama Canal, more of a naval strategy.

Speaker 16 In the Pacific, it's the three island chains, and really the vast desert of the Pacific is really the American heartland. That's our defensive barrier.

Speaker 16 That, to me, should restructure the entire Pentagon and armed forces to that, to force structure around that. I think Pete Hex has got to move immediately.

Speaker 16 I think there should be significant cuts to the Defense Department. And then that would give you the political cover to then say on Medicaid, you know, we got to be sensible here.

Speaker 16 Right now with the economic distress, there's a lot of MAGA on Medicaid.

Speaker 10 Yeah. A lot of MAGA on overwhelming opposition to cutting it from.

Speaker 16 And I think by the illegal aliens

Speaker 16 and obviously the waste, fraud, and abuse, and some of the things about

Speaker 16 a block granting it back to a governor like yourself and to California to figure it out has to happen. And other social programs, this is not going to be painless.

Speaker 16 We've been so out of control.

Speaker 16 And it's both parties. The Republican Party's been controlled opposition.
They have not had these tough fights. That's right.
That's the tough fights we're going to have to have.

Speaker 10 And to be fair, so people understand, and it's not an indictment to your point about both both parties, but you know, another 8.4 trillion dollars went to the debt under Trump administration.

Speaker 10 And to be fair, COVID had a huge part of that, but it's $3 trillion even before COVID hit, to your point. And I remember talking, by the way, you'll appreciate this, Steve.

Speaker 10 I remember being in Marine One, talking to Trump, President Trump, about the issue of the deficit.

Speaker 10 And he literally looks at me and he goes like this with his hands, and he said, printing press, printing press, and literally dismissed it. He was kidding.

Speaker 16 He was kidding.

Speaker 10 Well, I'm not the way he governed the first four years. I'm not sure.

Speaker 16 By the way, the first couple of years, the first couple of years, the deficits were under, I think, $400 or $500 billion. We came very close to actually trying to balance it.

Speaker 16 If we went back to pre-COVID spending, I mean, Scott Besson says this all the time. We don't have a revenue problem.
And this is a verbary would think about having to increase your taxes.

Speaker 16 We have a spending problem. I mean, post-COVID, we've had explosion of some of these programs.
I think you got to get your arms around them.

Speaker 16 But once again, These are going to be huge fights and they're not going to be painless. What I like about Johnson today for the first time, because I think he's tapped us along and overpromised.

Speaker 16 And now we're in a situation that, you know, we have to do a CR, which we hate. If you think that the MAGA base and our show, we represent the hardest core of the hardcore.

Speaker 16 If you think we like sitting here and basically not lighting up the phones and accepting Joe Biden and Kamala Harris's budget,

Speaker 16 it's a tough pill to take away.

Speaker 10 And it's a hell of a thing. I mean, I'm enjoying watching this in some respects.

Speaker 10 No, but

Speaker 16 what I liked about him, he's voting and going home. He's going to put it right on the Democrats about shutting down the government.
And I think you're going to have a real firestorm in the Senate.

Speaker 16 And I think a fascinating debate about the direction of the country. And I think we're going to see that.
I think we're going to see that coming.

Speaker 16 I think you'll see voices like Fetterman and others start to step up and take a much more prominent role in Democratic Party.

Speaker 16 Because one thing I keep saying all the time, if you'd watch MSNBC and CNN, you never really see the populists on the economic side. You don't see the Rokahanas getting the time.

Speaker 16 You don't see Fetterman really getting the time.

Speaker 16 Sherrod Brown and Sherrod didn't want to do national TV, but you never see really the economic populist ever really get, they kind of roll out Bernie Sanders, who I'm not a fan of, but they don't really ever get to the other guys.

Speaker 16 I think that's all going to become quite different in the days and weeks ahead.

Speaker 10 Well, I think, Steve, just listening, those of you that may have some familiarity to you, but never have taken the time to actually listen to you or tune into the war room.

Speaker 10 I mean, the idea that you were even talking about the corporate tax rate and a tax rate for the wealthiest among us and having, I mean, the fact that you're having this, we're having this dialogue about your different approach.

Speaker 10 I mean, in some ways, it's the California tax policy as it relates to more progressive tax policy that favors the working class.

Speaker 16 We would never take anything from California. I understand.

Speaker 10 I'm just challenging you on that.

Speaker 16 First of all,

Speaker 16 you're grossly over taxed in California. We want to cut taxes.

Speaker 10 We have moderate income taxes for middle working folks. It's the top tax rate, which you're arguing for a little higher tax rate, which I appreciate in the corporate tax side.

Speaker 10 I don't know if it's completely dissimilar. I don't want to get you in trouble.
But on the issue of tariffs, I want to go back to that because

Speaker 10 you're a big supporter of tariffs. I mean, right now,

Speaker 10 this tit for tat, what's going on in Ontario, we doubled another 25%

Speaker 10 back to aluminum and steel up in Canada. We're already seeing the correct.

Speaker 16 I think we're increasing aluminum and steel. I think he said today 100%.

Speaker 16 Is it going 100%?

Speaker 10 It was in 2020.

Speaker 16 I think it was a true social. Not that it's tit for tat, but there was a true social right before I came out.

Speaker 10 I think there were 100, literally 100 true social posts.

Speaker 10 And with respect on tariff policy, it seems a little chaotic. There's no stability.
The markets are reflecting that. I used to say the most powerful force in the world was Mother Nature.

Speaker 10 Now I say the markets. I mean, people, there's a, now you're seeing even

Speaker 10 recession. You're seeing Trump's.
I say this.

Speaker 16 The bond market, the bond market more than the stock market, the bond market has turfed out more governments than howitzers.

Speaker 16 If you look over the last couple of years, Liz Truss in England, really the Assembly in France under Macron, the Germans, right? The Italians are probably close to a sovereign debt crisis.

Speaker 16 Spain, England's been a couple of governments, even Starmer's under real pressure.

Speaker 16 So no, the global capital markets, particularly when you have to borrow this much money, the 10-year treasury is, you know, Bob Rubin used to run the country under Clinton, and this is why Carville said, I want to come back as I come back, I want to come back as the, as a 10-year bond or the bond market.

Speaker 16 Those set that 10-year bond sets everybody's economic underpinnings. And so it's very important.
But I think with President Trump, it's both a growth strategy and part of his tariffs.

Speaker 16 Governor, it shouldn't be lost that the tariffs have many different aspects to it.

Speaker 16 Number one, he wants to get back at least somehow back to more of the American plan from Alexander Hamilton and McKinley.

Speaker 16 Before the early 1900s, driven by the earthquake in San Francisco and the fire, we had a massive financial panic.

Speaker 16 And that led to really the internal revenue service and people focusing more on getting off American domicile companies and American citizens.

Speaker 16 President Trump wants to go back to more external revenue. That's part of the tariffs.

Speaker 16 He looks at the U.S. as a premium market.
And so you would pay a premium to get access to here like you would get a skybox at a sporting event or sit in the front row of a concert.

Speaker 16 And he's got a, but he's got an out. If you want an out, because the tariffs are going to be substantial, right?

Speaker 16 And over, particularly in Mexico and Canada, so you can't game the system manufacturing and manufacturing-wise and against China. Just look over the last, you know, he's been there 40 days.

Speaker 16 I think over the last three or four weeks, you've had almost a trillion dollars. I think it's $800 billion from Honda, from Siemens, from Apple, it was $500 billion, Taiwan, Semiconductor,

Speaker 16 with $100 billion in four years. These are massive capital investments in top grade.

Speaker 16 This is not some sovereign wealth fund saying, I'm going to come in, or it's not Masasan, it's SoftBank saying, I'm going to throw $100 billion. These are companies that are relocating here.

Speaker 16 And a big part of that is the tariffs. They say, look, we want to get into the United States.
We want to manufacture domestically. It's got a logistics supply chain we can control.

Speaker 16 It's got, you know, it's got the rule of law, but most importantly, it doesn't have tariffs and it's got lower energy costs. That's the new economic model.

Speaker 16 And it's going to go through some choppy water to get there. So these are just not a 25% tariff on an avocado coming from Mexico or some part under the hood from Canada.
It's much more systematic.

Speaker 16 Now, I understand the way it was rolled out because of the emergency nature of it. The focus was on fentanyl and this chemical warfare.

Speaker 10 Yeah, which is a little...

Speaker 10 a little BS, isn't it? I mean,

Speaker 10 there's a larger economic populism frame here. Let's just be honest with folks.
It had nothing to do with the

Speaker 10 tyrannical nature of prime minister or 51st governor of

Speaker 10 America, Justin Trudeau's policies on the title.

Speaker 16 No, no, but hold it. The Canadians have been, the Canadians are one of the toughest.
This is why

Speaker 16 when they talk about reciprocity,

Speaker 16 on April 2nd, you're going to have reciprocity and tariffs. And in India and Canada.

Speaker 10 You think that's going to go in effect in April?

Speaker 10 You think, I mean, with all the uncertainty, the market uncertainty, the Trump slump, all of the stress and the anxiety that people are feeling, all the damage.

Speaker 16 I don't call it the Trump slump.

Speaker 10 Listen, I do others.

Speaker 16 Warren Buffett, Warren Buffett, who's a big Democrat and a supporter of many Democratic politicians because you know him very well. He went to cash.

Speaker 16 He's sitting on $350 billion in cash a couple months ago. I think he realized that a lot of the market, particularly equity markets, were driven by NVIDIA and other, all this AI first kind of stage.

Speaker 16 There was a lot of fluff in that. So I think with President Trump, I do think they're coming in because I think

Speaker 16 he's changing the geostrategic model of the United States back to a hemispheric defense, away from the post-war international rules-based order, which has really gutted the United States.

Speaker 16 It was great for a while, right?

Speaker 10 It was great for a while. So 80 years of relative peace and prosperity, and America dominated.
I mean,

Speaker 10 there's a lot of happening.

Speaker 16 But it gutted the middle class, remember, and the working class. And at the end of the day, we had allies that were taking advantage of it.

Speaker 16 Give me a second on this.

Speaker 16 If you take the rim of the the Eurasian landmass, you got Western Europe, the Persian Gulf, the Gulf Emirates, Middle East, then you've got the Straits of Malacca, the South China Sea, and then up to Korea and Japan.

Speaker 16 Those four nodes, we have commercial relationships, trade deals, capital markets integration, some cultural interface, but it's underwritten, it's an American security guarantee.

Speaker 16 This is how, whether it's NATO or the Middle East or South China Sea or are up with Japan and Korea, we have combat troops there.

Speaker 16 We have, you know, we have 150,000 troops deployed today in, I think, 115 countries.

Speaker 16 This is one of the reasons people talk about foreign aid with USAID, which I'm against a lot of this stuff going on, but it pales in comparison to what we're underwriting for countries that were upside down on every trade deal.

Speaker 16 Our trade deficit in, I think, in January alone was a record trade deficit. I think it was $100 billion.

Speaker 16 So not just do we have budget deficits, we have trade deficits that are kind of anti-strictly linked because we've gutted all the manufacturing jobs. We've all all shored those.

Speaker 16 And I think Trump's geoeconomic strategy is a massive reshoring process. And I think you're seeing this now.

Speaker 16 And I might note, and I don't want to take a cheap shot, a lot of those traditionally would go back to California, but they're going to Arizona and Texas because I think they're looking at red states now as having lower regulation, lower taxes, and people are going there.

Speaker 16 And I think this is going to change a massive, the demographic change in the United States as you have Trump's reshoring come back to the United States.

Speaker 10 And so, to be fair, I think

Speaker 16 that's tied to

Speaker 16 unwinding the post-war international rules-based order. We're going to tell people that, hey, we're not going to be everywhere.
Kids from California are not going to be on carrier battle groups.

Speaker 16 Guys deployed from San Diego and kids that live in the Inland Empire are not going to be deployed in the Red Sea with two carrier battle groups that keep the Suez Canal open so that Europe can get, you know, can get energy resources from the Persian Gulf.

Speaker 16 I think those days are kind of over. We'll pick and choose

Speaker 16 as we pull back and look at hemispheric defense, not retreat from the world, not be isolationists, but kind of take care of the homeland first and particularly take care of the people in the homeland, the working class and middle class.

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Speaker 23 On this week's episode of the next chapter, I DD Jakes get to sit down with Oprah Winfrey, a media mogul, philanthropist, and global trailblazer.

Speaker 29 My life, although it may look like an anomaly, it has only been possible because I was obedient to the calls.

Speaker 26 This episode dives deep into how Oprah turned pain into purpose and what it really means to evolve with everybody watching.

Speaker 29 Every decision I have ever made has come from sitting with the Spirit and asking God, what would you have me do first.

Speaker 32 Whether you're rebuilding, reimagining, or just trying to hold it together, this one will speak directly to you.

Speaker 25 Listen to next chapter on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 31 Episodes drop weekly.

Speaker 34 On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night.

Speaker 35 Yes, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wali, a double board certified physician.

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Speaker 10 I appreciate how you laid all that out.

Speaker 10 I think there's risk in the context of the argument to move into a multipolar world and obviously the security umbrellas that will radically reorganize themselves.

Speaker 10 You're already seeing that with Mertz and Germany in the relationship with obviously Britain and France. But also, I worry about Japan and South Korea in that relationship.

Speaker 10 I worry about the nature of our broader influence. But I want to step back.
There was a lot that influenced a lot of those companies that you said that are coming back to the United States of America.

Speaker 10 Do you not agree that the industrial policies of the Biden administration, as it relates to the infrastructure bill, aspects of the IRA, aspects of the Chips and Science Act, were they not determinative from an industrial worker center policy perspective?

Speaker 10 Were they not also influential in the decision for people to begin to quote unquote reshore or

Speaker 16 might have been at the beginning, but it was President Trump they announced during President Trump's term, if President Trump had not won this election and you just had comments?

Speaker 10 I don't think those companies

Speaker 10 had had records, but there was record investments coming back during the burst.

Speaker 16 Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Biden in the entire four years was $1.7 trillion of capital investment back here from, I think, companies, not just private equity.

Speaker 10 From the private sector.

Speaker 16 From the private sector, right? Not just, but Trump's almost at a trillion dollars in four weeks.

Speaker 16 And these are Apple, because they understand that Trump represents a populist nationalist that's only growing and only going to expand, right? And people are now focused on this.

Speaker 16 And that's why I think you have Honda, you have Siemens, you have,

Speaker 16 you know,

Speaker 16 the semiconductor company is huge. You know, they're the most advanced, I would say, semiconductor manufacturer in the world.

Speaker 16 The other thing I think is quite interesting that traditionally our tech area in 128 in Boston and Silicon Valley are built around great engineering schools, built around Berkeley and Stanford, are built around Harvard and MIT.

Speaker 16 You know, when you start relocating to Arizona on something that's both an art and a science, like advanced chip design, and you know, I love Mike Crow at Arizona State. He's a buddy of mine.

Speaker 16 University of Arizona is a great school. I love Arizona.
They're not exactly MIT or

Speaker 16 Stanford.

Speaker 16 And I think it's showing you that the red states have done such a great job, Texas being the lead, of actually making these amenable to people's needs as companies that they're coming back there.

Speaker 16 And I think it's going to have a huge political impact and a huge demographic.

Speaker 16 But they didn't come in Biden harris and if kamala harris won i'm certainly they wouldn't have come because she's still a globalist that's not prepared to disrupt the global supply chains president trump's prepared to do that because reassuring they're not going to come back here unless you incentivize them to come back here and part of that's a carrot which is what uh well that was what the ira was that's what the infrastructure chips

Speaker 16 you know trump's trump's better with a stick and you got need a you need a carrot and a stick but don't those same and i appreciate the stick but let's talk about those red states.

Speaker 10 Aren't they disproportionate the ones impacted by these tariffs? I mean, to your point, there's going to be some tears here.

Speaker 10 And I appreciate the larger geopolitical and what you're trying to argue for ultimately coming out on the other side. But this transition is not overnight.

Speaker 10 The transition will come at real cost and consequence. Let's just be pragmatic.

Speaker 10 Up in Minnesota, Michigan, and New York, they're looking at $100 more a month on electricity bills as it relates to retaliatory nature.

Speaker 16 That's a threat.

Speaker 16 If it goes through some of the things that we're talking about, that's just one example.

Speaker 10 I mean, not every economist looks at the impacts of these tariffs. But obviously California will be disproportionately impacted.

Speaker 16 We did,

Speaker 16 Governor, we did the most significant tariffs we've ever done on the Chinese Communist Party in President Trump's first term.

Speaker 10 And Biden held the line on a lot of those tariffs.

Speaker 16 It definitely held the line. Well, number one, because I think geopolitically, he realized that

Speaker 16 you've got to stand up to the CCP.

Speaker 16 And I think, although you wouldn't have remembered, you wouldn't have heard it from the media that what President Trump did was a beginning stage of something that had to be done to get the attention of the Chinese Communist Party, that you just can't continue to game the system.

Speaker 16 And President Trump went out of his way by May of 19, Lighthizer and Navarro

Speaker 16 had that deal that went to every seven of the categories they had to resolve to really integrate with the Western economy or really the world's economy, including the state-owned industries.

Speaker 16 And they just tore the deal up and walked away, right? And said, screw you. And so that's when these tariffs, and the tariffs didn't increase prices.

Speaker 16 So when people say they increase prices, I don't actually think you have some economists saying theoretically, but when we look at practically back to the golden year of 2019, you don't actually see it.

Speaker 16 And I think there may be some dislocations in the short term, but in the intermediate term, I think it's really the way you get to the sunlit uplands of really having back to the American plan of remember.

Speaker 16 world-class industrial manufacturing that generates so many other opportunities.

Speaker 10 I think it's a mutual goal for all of us.

Speaker 10 But industrial policy, which I think is missing a little bit from the Trump agenda with targeted tariffs, I understand, but broad tariffs without an industrial policy to back it up.

Speaker 16 The key is broad, sustained. If you have broad and sustained tariffs, and people can make capital allocation decisions, particularly small and medium manufacturers, remember in the Chicago area,

Speaker 16 I think between 1998 and 2005, we lost 5,000 small manufacturers and a couple of million jobs because we shipped it all to China. And those guys are begging all the time.

Speaker 16 These are not the apples, and it's not

Speaker 16 the Taiwan manufacturing, some of the Chinese manufacturing. These are small, you know, the companies employ under 100 people, which I think is the lifeblood.

Speaker 16 In fact, there's a guy in Laguna Beach, John Gardner, who's kind of the leader of this effort to bring the small manufacturing folks back to more craftsmanship type of

Speaker 16 manufacturing. We have to do that.
We have to become a manufacturing powerhouse again.

Speaker 16 We have to do it quickly.

Speaker 10 And it's going to be no one disagree.

Speaker 16 Wall Street's not going to love it because they're all neoliberal neocons.

Speaker 16 They want to be invading everywhere

Speaker 16 and they hate populism. One of the reasons people should understand

Speaker 16 is the blowback among the donor class in Wall Street is not just that they perceive the economics as not to their benefit because

Speaker 16 you've concentrated wealth so dramatically here since the financial crash of 2008, but they hate the fact, and this shows you the Democratic Party,

Speaker 16 they hate the fact that they're empowering the populist. If we start to win on these tariffs, if we start to win on bringing these back,

Speaker 16 our movement is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Remember, we got 39% of African American men.

Speaker 16 I think we first time we've got a majority or near-majority of Hispanics because working-class people see the opportunities there.

Speaker 16 And Wall Street understands this, and the corporatists understand this. I can't, corporate America is my enemy.

Speaker 16 Number one, they're the leader in the woke movement in this country, but they're also the greed and avarice has always been for the leaders.

Speaker 16 In fact, the tax cuts they take, and one of the reasons I hate allowing them to do stock buybacks is they game the system

Speaker 16 to drive up stock prices, to drive the warrant package and the thing, and they don't put in a capital equipment.

Speaker 10 Thank you. To me, if you've got to tell your president that, Steve, you got to tell your president that.
The president,

Speaker 10 the status of the state.

Speaker 16 The president knows this. Already his tax budget is.

Speaker 10 Why does he go after the carried interest?

Speaker 10 Why is he going after corporate subsidies?

Speaker 16 I'm going to break some news here, Governor. I believe that one of the leading things you're going to see in President Trump's tax bill when it comes out, that he's going to take on carried interest.

Speaker 16 And President Trump is finally had a bill.

Speaker 10 That's my kind of doge. That's $1.3 billion.
Small ball, but it's symbolic and subsided. What about the $3 billion in oil and gas subsidies? I mean, that's ultimate corporate welfare.

Speaker 16 What do you mean?

Speaker 16 We got a drill, baby, drill.

Speaker 10 We need to be a little bit more than a bad. We're already the leader of the bar.
We are 13.5 billion barrels

Speaker 10 a day.

Speaker 16 We have to have lower energy costs. And one of the reasons all these companies are coming back, we're never, what we got to do is stop.
Look, you see this in Germany.

Speaker 16 Germany had this maniacal, and you and I are not going to agree on this or even close, but they had

Speaker 16 this fetish.

Speaker 10 Well, they made a mistake on the name.

Speaker 16 Carbon Zero.

Speaker 16 They've deindustrialized themselves on the Greta Thunberg model. They're at 3.5% energy.

Speaker 10 She was pre-Greta Thunberg. She wasn't even bored, but I appreciate your frame.

Speaker 16 No, but

Speaker 16 they're deindustrializing Germany. We don't want that to happen here in the United States.

Speaker 10 No, we're on the same page on that. It's just how we achieve the goal.
And by the way, 100% aligned on industrial policy, bringing manufacturing back that's worker-centered, 100%.

Speaker 10 And by the way, I say that as governor of the largest manufacturing state in America, a state that has more corporate headquarters, God bless, forgive me, than any other state in America, more than we've had in over a decade, and that dominates in the the innovative space in terms of scientists, engineers, researchers.

Speaker 16 But hang on a second, hang on a second. You've also allowed, and you've also allowed the oligarchy of Silicon Valley.
Well, let's talk about Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley is an apartheid state.

Speaker 16 Okay. Within, within, you're one of the most progressive leaders in this country, right?

Speaker 16 We disagree probably on everything on the cultural side, but you're one of the leaders. You're one of the leaders, elected officials of the most progressive state.

Speaker 16 And and you're the leader of that element of the Democratic.

Speaker 10 What do you call it techno-feudalism?

Speaker 10 Techno-feudalism. What do you mean by that exactly?

Speaker 16 Well, here's what I mean is that two things happen around 2008 to 2010.

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Speaker 18 Run a business and not thinking about radio? Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio on iHeart today than they were 20 years ago.

Speaker 18 And only iHeart Broadcast Radio connects with more Americans than TV, digital, social, any other media. Even twice as many teens than TikTok.
And that reach means everything.

Speaker 18 Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results.
Now let's get those results growing for your business.

Speaker 18 Radio's here now more than ever, and iHeart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business? Think iHeart.

Speaker 18 Streaming, podcasting, and radio, where the reach is real. Let us us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.
That's iHeartAdvertising.com.

Speaker 19 Or call 844-844-iHeart.

Speaker 18 One more time, just call 844-844-i-Heart and get radio working for you.

Speaker 20 On this week's episode of the Next Chapter, I, D.D.

Speaker 24 Jakes, get to sit down with Oprah Winfrey, a media mogul, philanthropist, and global trailblazer.

Speaker 29 My life, although it may look like an anomaly, it has only been possible because I was obedient to the calls.

Speaker 30 This episode dives deep into how Oprah turned pain into purpose and what it really means to evolve with everybody watching.

Speaker 29 Every decision I have ever made

Speaker 29 has come from sitting with the Spirit and asking God, what would you have me do first?

Speaker 32 Whether you're rebuilding, reimagining, or just trying to hold it together, this one will speak directly to you.

Speaker 21 Listen to the next chapter on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 31 Episodes drop weekly.

Speaker 36 The Big Take Podcast from Bloomberg News dives deep into one big global business story every weekday.

Speaker 5 A shutdown means we don't get the data, but it also means for President Trump that there's no chance of bad news on the labor market.

Speaker 36 What does a bacon, egg, and cheese sandwich reveal about the economy? Our breakfast foods are consistent consumer staples, and so they sort of become outsize indicators of inflation.

Speaker 36 What's behind Elon Musk's trillion-dollar payout?

Speaker 37 There's a sort of concerted effort to message that Musk is coming back. He's putting politics aside.
He's left the White House.

Speaker 36 And what can the PCE tell you that the CPI can't?

Speaker 38 CPI tries to measure out-of-pocket costs that consumers are paying for things, whereas the PCE index that the Fed targets is a little bit broader of a measure.

Speaker 36 Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 10 By the way, that's sort of the T-Pod. That's the Wall Street, the bailout.

Speaker 16 Well, the bailout, the financial crash of 2008. And this is why I consider President Obama kind of a tragic figure, right? He came in as an anti-war populist.

Speaker 16 And I am opposed to the war in Iraq and everything in Afghanistan. My daughter served after West Point in Iraq.

Speaker 16 And I can tell you as a parent, you realize that you have no control over anything when your kid goes over, you know, defending their country, representing their country.

Speaker 16 You understand, you know, how insignificant you are. But the financial crash, you know, Geithner and Bernanke went to a classic Wall Street bailout.

Speaker 16 You know, we didn't let capitalism, you know, Goldman Sachs got bailed out, AIG.

Speaker 16 No corporate guys ever went to prison on the worst bailout. We had the greatest concentration of wealth until the pandemic happened with the 1%

Speaker 16 because the Federal Reserve's balance sheet went from $880 billion to, I think, $4.5,

Speaker 16 right? And all that liquidity went to bail out real assets and corporate stocks. At the same time, with Obama,

Speaker 16 Obama got this heads up, kind of, I think it was on Facebook at the San Francisco airport, this briefing about how social media,

Speaker 16 his weapon to take on the Clinton mafia, because he was a relatively unknown guy, taking on the most embedded political apparatus in the Democratic Party in modern history.

Speaker 16 And he took it on with using social media. That was his first thing.
And there was a deal kind of made, a Faustian bargain, that we wouldn't pursue antitrust.

Speaker 16 We wouldn't pursue FTC or the Justice Department.

Speaker 16 We would allow the tech oligarchs in the age of the algorithm, the algorithmic age, to basically dominate and dominate in every one of these verticals, right, with no real

Speaker 16 antitrust and what we allowed them to become the most powerful people on earth.

Speaker 16 But what proved out is that both on social media with TikTok

Speaker 16 and then with deep seek in the AI space, that the Faustian bargain, as a hedge of mine, we said, just give us the commanding heights. And that didn't happen.

Speaker 16 In fact, you can say it's kind of an utter failure that the social media is all kind of clunky. It's very dominant, right? But it's clunky compared to TikTok.

Speaker 16 If you look at AI and whether DeepSeek, you think it's a Chinese psyop or it's a Sputnik moment.

Speaker 10 Well, it sure as hell. It was a discussion.

Speaker 16 We clearly, you know, you don't hear a lot of talking about net carbon zero when this thing needs 10 times more on the data center side.

Speaker 16 In the thing, because it's kind of brute force computing.

Speaker 10 It has resuscitated the nuclear question, which is interesting. So there's exactly because there's still a commitment.
They haven't completely thrown out

Speaker 10 fully the commitment to low carbon green growth. But your point direction is.

Speaker 16 Governor, don't get there. You know,

Speaker 16 because they don't have the power, they don't have their business model. Now, for that epic fail, what's the and they've gotten away from capitalism is about markets and profits, okay?

Speaker 16 They are now about digital platforms and rent. They're rent seekers, and they don't believe in even open borders.

Speaker 16 These guys are techno-feudalists, that you have a digital platform and you had kind of digital serfs that serve that.

Speaker 16 And you add it to AI and what they want to do in advanced AI of cutting out all the

Speaker 16 entry-level managerial, administrative,

Speaker 16 low-tech work,

Speaker 16 we're going to have a massive problem about unemployment. And they're just on their merry way.

Speaker 16 And here's what, just like the lords of easy money on Wall Street came to the Federal Reserve and the Treasury for a bailout, and no working class or middle class people, you know, this in California got a bailout.

Speaker 16 They paid for the bailout through the taxes.

Speaker 16 What's the first thing?

Speaker 16 Silicon Valley comes, the first thing they come for is we need a new Mercury program. We need a Marshall program.
We need $500 billion

Speaker 16 and they need to turn over the Lawrence Livermore Weapons Lab in California, Sandia. We need to take control of all the national labs and we need a $500 billion bailout because of the Sputnik moment.

Speaker 16 So they come back to the taxpayers. This is why I think these guys are very dangerous and it's created in Silicon Valley.

Speaker 16 And I understand at the beginning there was rationale for this, but now it's not. And it's got to be, and I think you've got to be one of the leaders leaders of it.

Speaker 10 Of course, California is.

Speaker 16 If we're ever to get a control of the oligarchs, you as governor and as quite frankly, the leader of that wing of the party have got to work with us to say, hey, this can't go on any longer.

Speaker 16 First thing we need is Lena Khan. And

Speaker 10 we love it. You got rid of her.
So I was going to ask you

Speaker 10 if I met someone who was actually starting to deal with some of these issues. Oh, Bob.
And then Trump threw him out. threw her out.

Speaker 16 Correct me if I'm wrong, Governor. I don't think Kamala Harris, I don't think Lena Khan's name ever crossed the lips of Kamala Harris in the outside.

Speaker 10 I don't recall, but they never had her back.

Speaker 16 She's the first one to say that they never had her back. She's a neo-Brandeisian after Louis Brandeis, which always warned against the concentration of private power companies.

Speaker 10 She also celebrated citizenship, which I appreciate, active, non-inert citizenship. Exactly.
Most human agency. Powerful office.

Speaker 16 He was a big believer in human agency.

Speaker 10 And back to

Speaker 10 the agency.

Speaker 16 With Gil Slater, Gil Slater's deputy, with Andrew Ferguson, also Mike Davis and Rachel Beauvart and the outside. We are the most, we want to break up.

Speaker 16 In fact, you see the suits right now in Northern Virginia and D.C. against Google.
I mean, the hardcore populist wing of the MAGA movement really wants to target Philadelphia.

Speaker 10 And look, I appreciate that. And you've been consistent on that for years.
And obviously it goes to, you know, I imagine some of

Speaker 10 your issues with Elon, and we haven't even gotten to that. And I know that's all going to be.
Do I have any issues?

Speaker 16 Do I have any issues? Yeah, well, you called him evil.

Speaker 10 You called him a racist.

Speaker 16 You have

Speaker 16 parasitic, parasitic, illegal,

Speaker 10 alien, I think, was your exact phrase, your phrase, not mine.

Speaker 10 Though we may share some commonality in terms of concern about what he's doing. But that said, let me.

Speaker 10 Hold it.

Speaker 16 No, hang on, hang on. Concern.
You guys love, see, you loved all the oligarchs, in particularly Elon, until they flipped.

Speaker 16 And remember, all the rest of these oligarchs were all progressive Democrats until 11 p.m.

Speaker 10 I refer to them as libertarian, and I know these guys intimately have known them for decades.

Speaker 16 So you know the danger we're dealing with. You know the danger.

Speaker 10 No, look, but what? Why doesn't Donald Trump, why doesn't President Trump, the leader of the movement, Trump is him?

Speaker 10 Without Trump, I don't mean maybe it's MAGA, it's the work you're doing in that populist base, but why isn't he pushing back? He brings someone in from Treasury

Speaker 10 Treasury, puts a commerce secretary in the middle of the city. It only reinforces this.

Speaker 16 First off, at Treasury, i think you're seeing a a very smart analysis about m a and about the oligarchs i think look with gil slater andrew ferguson i mean these are one notch down and maybe not as well known as lena kahn but they're in the same they're in the same uh they're in the same uh school of thought of neo-brandeising of this concept of concern about the concentration the tremendous concentration of private power i think there's and president trump's working through this right now look all these guys just became their damascene moment was 11 p.m eastern standard time on the 5th of november when pennsylvania was called for trump once that all of them zuckerberg and all these guys they became maga you know zuckerberg zuckerberg started growing the hair working out doing well elon was there a little bit before it seemed elon was there before after he dumped desantis

Speaker 16 elon i think very smartly this goes back to the precinct and i get i give him tremendous credit he saw the math of what we were doing as grassroots of this precinct strategy canvassing he backed the play i mean and look no one's ever written a 250 million dollar check when they

Speaker 16 know i think it's more but i but that's just my humble opinion i it may be more eventually i think it's up to 280 but he backed it on the least uh sexy aspect which is backing grassroots going door to door and particularly he would go up and and campaign in pennsylvania michigan and wisconsin

Speaker 10 and and forgive me but what's his end game i mean you know i know you i look he wants to be the first trillionaire in the world i mean what's his end game here well you know it you guys you created him a governor I mean, you.

Speaker 10 By the way, in many respects, California did. It was our regulatory process and our subsidies to create this market.
You're 100% right. I think you're right about that.

Speaker 16 He left Canada to come to California. That was his, he's, you know,

Speaker 10 and then a big, and then a big check from the federal government, from everybody watching that backed his play early on when he was in deep need.

Speaker 10 He paid it back relatively quickly, but he's been the beneficiary of billions and billions and billions of dollars continued to

Speaker 10 loans subsidies.

Speaker 16 38, loans, I think 38.

Speaker 10 You seriously want him to take over the Starlink, to take over the FAA and the air traffic control system?

Speaker 10 Here's how,

Speaker 16 listen,

Speaker 16 I laid out this concept at CPAC in 17 that it was going to be, you know, populist economics and economic nationalism, America first national security.

Speaker 16 And the third was a deconstruction of the administrative state.

Speaker 16 What Elon Musk has done, and I think this is the engineer, you know, the better angels of Elon, that engineer's brain.

Speaker 16 I think it kicked in when he saw the strategy of how we actually win in building a coalition of working class people. He supported that in President Trump.

Speaker 16 I think now, and this is why I think he jumped on it. He sees that we have an apparatus, and I think you'd be the first to admit the administrative state that's kind of anti-democratic.
It's there.

Speaker 16 And I don't care if AOC or Gavin Newsom or Bernie Sanders walks into the Oval Office, President of the United States, the deep state and the apparatus is going to do what they're going to do.

Speaker 16 They're going to look at you as just passing through.

Speaker 10 No, we refer to it

Speaker 10 in non-Pejorda, but there's a clay layer of bureaucracy. And you're right, unaccountable folks making a lot of decisions.
And I don't think that's wrong. But yours is a much more.

Speaker 16 You know what? I just had an idea. We should invite Elon because you know these guys better.
You're personal friends, these guys.

Speaker 16 Elon ought to take a California Doge, sit down with you so you can get the ground.

Speaker 10 We've been doing it for you.

Speaker 10 But going.

Speaker 10 But our approach, Steve, is more like Rego. We already did this.
$140 billion of savings on a $1.4 trillion budget. That was real savings.
And we did it the right way, not two people, with people.

Speaker 10 400,000 positions under the Clinton administration.

Speaker 10 Your favorite family.

Speaker 16 Let Elon come out. Let Elon come out and verify that.
I think for the nation to be good and be good.

Speaker 10 But if he hasn't done it, let's go.

Speaker 16 Let's go back to Durham.

Speaker 16 What he's trying to do is get the waste, fraud, and abuse and identified. He has identified USAID, which people have been working on for years, but he's done a good job there.

Speaker 16 The others is $20 billion in Citicorp, you know, where it went. I think people are going to, you know, eventually need more details.
I think he said he's going to provide more details.

Speaker 16 They just went to federal court last night. A judge ruled an overview of the

Speaker 10 Steve. I love that you're defending him now.
By the way, he's been

Speaker 10 hanging.

Speaker 16 Hang on. I'm not.

Speaker 10 He hasn't attacked you back, which is interesting to me. He's marginally attacked you back.
You must

Speaker 10 be mute. I'm curious, your private thoughts on that.
Why do you think

Speaker 10 he's a little scared of you, isn't he?

Speaker 16 No, I don't think Elon's. I think he is.

Speaker 10 That's my personal opinion.

Speaker 16 I'm just a mick that yells into a microphone.

Speaker 16 But, governor, no, here's, I think it's important. And this is why I think let's get back to why President Trump won again.
You have.

Speaker 16 basically working class people, middle class, and particularly lower down the chains. They've seen the bailouts on Wall Street.
They've seen the oligarchs be made. They don't think they have agency.

Speaker 16 In a global, you know, global supply chain, they think they're just a cog in the machine, that their voice is not heard, right? They're kind of dismissed culturally.

Speaker 16 They're considered, and I don't care if you're black, Hispanic, or white working class. It's not a race thing.
It's ethnicity. You're just dismissed as not being important.

Speaker 16 Now with AI coming up, they see that even their children that went to college in that important 10 years that you get out of school, administrative tech managerial, are probably not going to be there or be there in some dramatically different way than you came up and your dad came up and my dad and myself.

Speaker 16 So I think they see that in the institutions that were supposed to be there to be protective, people question. And the polling shows this categorically.

Speaker 16 And that's why a guy like Trump, Trump comes up and he says, look,

Speaker 16 in DC, not in the room, not in the deal. And I'm going to put you in the room.
And people feel comfortable.

Speaker 16 That's why they love this kind of days of thunder and every day flood the zone with President Trump is doing.

Speaker 16 And President Trump, and you know, because you know him very well, he has a visceral connection with working class people that people in politics haven't had, you know, for generations.

Speaker 16 He just has this working class and middle class. They trust him and they believe in him.
And he's designated Elon. I've got a lot of problems with Elon, and you know that.
Elon knows it.

Speaker 16 But what I do admire is that he is trying to get this situation to get the waste fraud and abuse out. I hope it gets to a trillion dollars.
I'm as big a supporter of that.

Speaker 16 I don't think we're going to get there.

Speaker 5 No, back to your point.

Speaker 10 That's deep programmatic cuts. We're going to end up consequent.

Speaker 16 And people this summer, and I keep telling people like all these corporate CEOs that come to Trump, to Mar-a-Lago and the tech bros and the Brolegarchs and

Speaker 16 all of them came to the inauguration. They're all partying their tuxes.
I said, this is all great celebratory, but we're going to go through a firestorm.

Speaker 16 And I think part of this firestorm is not this CR. I think the CR gets kicked down.

Speaker 16 But this summer, when you start to go through the programmatic changes that you have to have, we have to get control of federal spending. If we don't, we're never going to get rid of inflation.

Speaker 16 That is going to be the asset test. When you talk about defense, you're going to have the Hawks and a a lot of other people in the neocons in your grill.

Speaker 16 When you talk about what has to happen to Medicaid, you know, people have gone there. When you talk about the social programs, you talk about SNAP, you talk about these.

Speaker 16 We are about to have a national conversation that we've never had.

Speaker 16 And there's no easy alternatives. All the easy alternatives we left a decade or a couple of decades ago.

Speaker 16 This is going to get to down to say, hey, we need to get the deficit to under a trillion dollars or like 3.5%.

Speaker 16 We're never going to, people in this, your audience should understand something. We will never pay off one penny of the face amount of the debt.

Speaker 16 As we increase this now, about every hundred days of another trillion dollars,

Speaker 16 it's just the interest.

Speaker 16 Right now, it's a the gross interest charge, I think, is a trillion four, which is the way it's got to be looked, not net, because they kind of take the they take the interest on the bonds we sell ourselves and they net it out, which I think is unfair accounting.

Speaker 16 You got to look at the gross right now.

Speaker 16 It's significantly over the Defense Department. And I would tell people, too, as we kind of wrap up or get closer to wrap up, in the the history of countries, no country's ever come back economically

Speaker 16 that its debt's above its GDP. And we are now

Speaker 16 at that space. And additionally, no nation of national security has ever survived as a major power when the interest payments on their debt go above what they pay for national for national security.

Speaker 10 I know.

Speaker 16 And a trillion dollars, we are now over

Speaker 16 our national security right now is $1 trillion.

Speaker 16 And we are, I think, about a trillion two to a trillion four in interest payments alone.

Speaker 10 But, Steve, that's why this tax cuts, extending the tax cuts, is reckless in this respect.

Speaker 16 I don't agree with that. I think

Speaker 16 if you want to have,

Speaker 16 governor, we're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 10 By definition, that's

Speaker 10 the best.

Speaker 16 If you want to have a shot, if you want to have a shot to get the 3.5%, 4% growth, you've got to have a supply-side tax hedge.

Speaker 16 And by the way, for people, it's just keeping the tax cut they have today.

Speaker 10 For people, that's the only thing that's not. No, that's the frame.
Though you you want to see it increased on corporations and the 1%.

Speaker 16 I want to see corporations stay. I don't want to see a cut.

Speaker 16 But

Speaker 16 on the upper brackets,

Speaker 16 I don't want to see extension. I want them to go back to the old rates and they have to pay the old rates.

Speaker 16 And then additionally, if they can't help us get this under control, I'm all for increasing taxes on the ⁇ they will have a tax increase if President Trump doesn't extend it.

Speaker 16 But then I think we'll have another tax increase. The 1%, the top 3%,

Speaker 16 unless they,

Speaker 16 because they they control Washington, D.C., unless they work together with working class and middle-class people to get this spending out of control and get all the corporate welfare out of this, because

Speaker 16 we hate crony capitalism and corporate welfare.

Speaker 10 Except for oil and gas, apparently, Steve. Come on.
$3 billion right there.

Speaker 16 You've got to generate, you've got to generate lower energy costs.

Speaker 10 There are exceptions. First barely to the rule.
Got you.

Speaker 16 First off, you finally admitted for the first time the net carbon fetish is.

Speaker 10 I didn't know I didn't admit it.

Speaker 10 I've been pretty pretty clear

Speaker 10 on this whole frame, but I'm not naive about it. But also, by the way,

Speaker 10 I don't know what more evidence you guys need of Mother Nature's fury than we've had in the last year, but that's another conversation for another day. And that's not fanaticism.
That's profit.

Speaker 10 Eventually,

Speaker 16 eventually,

Speaker 16 you work with Rokahana and Fetterman.

Speaker 16 You'll become more of a populist nationalist. And then you'll probably have a bright future.

Speaker 10 Hey, Steve, I really enjoy this conversation. I think it's incredibly valuable.
And I appreciate the spirit to which we were able to engage. And

Speaker 10 I hope we could continue the conversation and

Speaker 10 I hope we get out of this week without any further disruptions. It's been a

Speaker 10 hell of a beginning of administration. And I appreciate your advocacy.
I also appreciate that you call balls and strikes as it relates to what you're seeing with administration.

Speaker 16 I also think that for your audience, you know, there's a saying that there are decades in which nothing happens and there are weeks in which decades happen.

Speaker 16 We're living in that time right now. So, whatever happens this week, next week, it's going to be quite intense.

Speaker 16 We have an economy to turn around geostrategically. The beginning of the kinetic part of the Third World War has got to be stopped.
So,

Speaker 16 we're living history every day. And I'm just honored you had me on here.
And, you know, we were able to conduct this in some level of

Speaker 16 decency.

Speaker 10 I appreciate it, Steve. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 16 Thank you, Governor. Appreciate you.

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Speaker 7 I knew it was a bomb the second that it exploded. I felt it rip through me.

Speaker 8 In season two of Rip Current, we ask who tried to kill Judy Berry and why.

Speaker 9 They were climbing trees and they were sabotaging logging equipment in the woods.

Speaker 3 She received death threats before the bombing. She received more threats after the bombing.

Speaker 11 I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement.

Speaker 8 Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 13 Thanksgiving isn't just about food. It's a day for us to show up for one another.

Speaker 14 It's okay not to be okay sometimes and be able to build strength and love within each other.

Speaker 13 I'm Ellie Aconi, host of the podcast Family Therapy, a series where real families come together to heal and find hope.

Speaker 15 I've always wanted us to have therapy, so this is such a beautiful opportunity.

Speaker 13 Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 5 This is Jim. Hello.
Jim started advertising with iHeartRadio way back in April.

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