And, This is How Climate Change is Coming For All Of Us

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Speaker 37 One of the issues that animates so many of us living in states like California, but people all across the United States, from Florida, Louisiana, Louisiana, people in states that have been ravaged by some of the most extreme storms in our lifetime, hurricanes, floods, fires here on the West Coast.

Speaker 37 I think all recognize the imperative of focusing on the issue of climate change. Of course, so much of our focus is moved in other directions, but Mother Nature, she bats last and she bats a thousand.

Speaker 37 And that's why this week, as we celebrate Earth Day in the United States of America, I thought it was important to talk about the state of climate policy in the United States of America.

Speaker 37 California just reached two-thirds of all of our electricity now, renewable electricity. We're in the how business.

Speaker 37 And my next guest is also focused on how America can lead the globe on low-carbon green growth.

Speaker 32 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 37 And this is Senator Sheldon Whitehouse.

Speaker 32 Well, Senator, thanks for taking the the time to be on the podcast. And I thought it was a great time to have a chance to sit down and talk to you about one of the most pressing issues of our time.

Speaker 32 That's the issue of climate and what the climate is in Washington, D.C.

Speaker 32 The Trump administration has come in even more ferociously from my perspective, trying to analyze some of the progress that we've made here in the state of California, but all across the United States.

Speaker 32 A lot of the progress that was advanced, you advanced, and your colleagues during the Biden administration and the IRA and the infrastructure bill, promises that were promoted in Project 2025 that are taking shape.

Speaker 32 The EPA

Speaker 32 coming out with a set of recommendations and rulemaking that they're looking to advance that is jaw-dropping.

Speaker 32 So I really appreciate the timeliness of your visit and the opportunity to dialogue about some of these things.

Speaker 32 Tell me what I don't know in this space and tell me what folks listening should know about the state of climate policy in America.

Speaker 32 I think what most people don't know is how close we are to a climate-driven economic collapse

Speaker 32 that comes when climate risk becomes uninsurable. So you can't get a property insurance policy on your home.
There are plenty of Californians who are experiencing that.

Speaker 32 And then when you can't get property insurance on your home, you can't get a mortgage on it. You can't sell it to somebody who needs a mortgage.

Speaker 32 So unless you're selling it to a billionaire who can pay cash, you're screwed. So no mortgage means your property values crash.

Speaker 32 And when your property values crash, if that happens to enough people, which it will, because this is driven by climate risk that touches millions and millions of people, you then get an economic wipeout like the 2008 mortgage meltdown caused across the country, harming people who had no problems with their mortgage.

Speaker 32 It was just the economic wipeout. So someone listening may think that may be slightly hyperbolic.

Speaker 32 Then again, folks living on the coasts, folks living in the south, in places like Louisiana, obviously in Florida, not just in California, are feeling that reality.

Speaker 32 Obviously, the wildfires here in the western United States, the hurricanes in the southern part of the country.

Speaker 32 What's the national prism then to begin to address this issue?

Speaker 32 Obviously, we've got to deal with some of the underlying issues of climate change, but in an adaptation policy, we often are talking about sea level rise.

Speaker 32 We're talking about other strategies to mitigate, but you're talking about a looming financial crisis, which raises the bar of concern. Correct.
Yeah. And Florida, I think, is first and worst.

Speaker 32 Florida has more liability from the fund it set up. to backstop the insurers who go bust there, which is like a dozen already, because they're basically little pop-ups that aren't for real.
Right.

Speaker 32 And the state steps in when they don't pay claims, and then the taxpayer has to pay.

Speaker 32 And they've got a separate state-backed insurance company that is trying to look like an insurance company and carrying all this liability

Speaker 32 that probably they won't be able to make good on. Those two

Speaker 32 risks to insure to Florida are bigger than the state's actual sovereign debt. So there's a huge overhang over Florida, and it's going to do nothing but get worse.

Speaker 32 You've got property insurance rates that have tripled in a lot of places in Florida and that are expected to triple again.

Speaker 32 You know, that's really brutal. And when that happens, it starts cascading out through the economy.
The International Financial Stability Board put out a global warning to banks. Look out for this.

Speaker 32 This is coming. Because, for instance, if all these properties' value go down, because they're not mortgageable any longer,

Speaker 32 then their value goes down on the loan to value ratio of a bank. And now suddenly a bank doesn't look solvent any longer and it's got its own problems.
So these problems cascade out into the economy.

Speaker 32 And that's what we have to prepare people for. And I think, you know, you asked a great question.

Speaker 32 What do we do about it? Step one is to stop what is causing this. which is A, climate change, but behind that,

Speaker 32 the climate denial operation of the fossil fuel industry, which through disinformation and political corruption is just ruining our ability to deal with a problem whose solutions are actually pretty evident if we could

Speaker 32 get around the wiles and the mischief of the fossil fuel industry. I appreciate the clarity on that.
I mean, the climate crisis is nothing more than a fossil fuel crisis.

Speaker 32 It's the burning of oil and gas.

Speaker 32 And then lying about it to the public at industrial scale.

Speaker 32 And having the best scientists, having the best researchers in this space for decades and decades, and being able to see into the future and then knowingly lying about it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 32 They weren't just in denial.

Speaker 32 They actually suppressed this information from the public for decades. The scientists have known their stuff about climate this whole time.

Speaker 32 I mean, the scientist community can really take a bow for really excellent presentations and really excellent understanding and predictions. And that includes the ones paid by Exxon.

Speaker 32 They got it right 30 years ago. And Exxon needs some of the greatest geologists.
They hire some of the best and the brightest minds, best can be broadly described, but for the job intended.

Speaker 32 So they're able to attract the talent because they're able to dig deep into their wallet to get that talent.

Speaker 32 But as a consequence, they're

Speaker 32 digging deeper into our wallets right now because

Speaker 32 they can spend similar talent in the disinformation, propagandizing, setting up phony front groups, the whole armada of disinformation effort that they run is also being done at a very,

Speaker 32 I hate to say it, it's being done very professionally. And so, Senator, you're one of the few folks.
I mean, there's a handful of you, and I, you know, I give, do where it is deserved.

Speaker 32 There is a handful of U.S.

Speaker 32 senators that have the guts, because I think it takes guts to say what you just said, and the courage to be out front and to call balls and strikes and to call out those that are responsible.

Speaker 32 Polluters should pay, but they're socializing the corruption. Incon 101.
Incon 101 on all of us. So the question is, why? Is it just simply because it's electorally ill-advised to be so candid?

Speaker 32 Is it because of the corruption that is sort of imbued in the system? It's the unwillingness to take the risk of

Speaker 32 to be more resolved in this space. Is it just what we've come to expect? And that is big money influencing, having outsized influence.
Boom. Big money having outsized influence.

Speaker 32 If you set up an enormous armada of phony front groups and you put Madison Avenue tested fake messaging through that and you backstop it with literally billions of dollars in dark money into Congress, into the back pocket of Mitch McConnell so that he can through super PACs drop ads on Democrats.

Speaker 32 You put that whole machine together and up against it, you have Democrats being like well-meaning and talking about polar bears. It's like totally not a fair fight.

Speaker 32 It's the panzer tanks versus the Polish cavalry. You just don't have a chance.
So we need to be much better about it. The good news is we don't have to build the apparatus of lies.

Speaker 32 All we have to do is build a much more adept and sharp apparatus to point out the lies. Well said.

Speaker 32 And when people see what has been done to them, when they understand what had, what was his name, Harvey used to to say the end of the story yeah of course

Speaker 32 yeah and that's the end of the story that's the end of the story you got lied to yeah you got lied to at an industrial scale

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Speaker 32 So we're all dealing with the consequences. Of course, you know, as a governor of California that's dealt with more natural disasters than most governors.

Speaker 32 And I think Jerry Brown could have said that prior to me. And in the last 10 years, we've experienced some of the worst wildfires in U.S.
history, not just California history.

Speaker 32 Obviously, the wildfires in Southern California that occurred in dead of winter.

Speaker 32 Nine months, the driest conditions we've experienced down there in modern history.

Speaker 32 And in January, with 100 mile-an-hour winds attached to a fire, we experienced the loss of 13 plus thousand properties. The issue of insurance, by definition, is top of mind.

Speaker 32 It's the number one concern people have right now of accessing whatever insurance they had so they can recover their lives and get back on their feet.

Speaker 32 But the idea of getting back and rebuilding, the number one concern is, can I get a mortgage now? Because can that mortgage be attached to a requirement to have insurance? Yeah.

Speaker 32 And that's the cascade. You can't predict the risk.
So you can't get the insurance. So the buyer who you want to sell your property to can't get a mortgage.
So you have to drop the price.

Speaker 32 And you've got this property values crash that then cascades out through the economy.

Speaker 32 And it has been warned of so clearly that the chairman of the Fed, Jay Powell, Federal Reserve, came a month ago to the Senate, spoke to the banking committee and said, you know, 10 to 15 years from now, there'll be whole regions of the United States where you can't get a mortgage anymore.

Speaker 32 And he's, I mean, and he's a pretty conservative, I mean, not pretty, very conservative.

Speaker 32 He said 10 and not very green.

Speaker 32 And not very green. So it's just, look, the bottom line is climate risk is financial risk.
Yes.

Speaker 32 And it's language, I think, hopefully that could bring people to the table on fundamentally addressing the solutions.

Speaker 32 Now, let's, we've talked about prevention, we could talk about low carbon, green growth, we could talk about decarbonizing our economy and changing the way we produce and consume energy, but also.

Speaker 32 How do we address the situational reality? 10 or 15 years. Obviously, we're looking at IPPC, we're looking at 2045 goals and carbon neutrality

Speaker 32 in that timeline. But beyond that, the insurance market and stabilizing, it's not unique to Florida, it's not unique to Louisiana.

Speaker 32 I mean, I was up in Montana of all places, they were discussing this as a top priority, obviously in California.

Speaker 32 Is there a federal frame, are you talking to your colleagues about a federal strategy to address some of these insurance concerns? I think until we turn the corner on fossil fuel emissions,

Speaker 32 The insurance industry is going to continue looking out into uncertainty. How bad does this get? Every year that we add more fossil fuel emissions, we add to their uncertainty, we add to their peril.

Speaker 32 And so they're going to continue to withdraw away from that risk.

Speaker 32 And by the way, that takes down mortgages that require insurance.

Speaker 32 And by the way, that also takes down a lot of financial transactions where there's an insurance component to a complex financial transaction. So this cascades out

Speaker 32 very, very widely and very rapidly. And we simply have to start with first principles.
This is caused by fossil fuel emissions. We're not

Speaker 32 dealing with it properly because of fossil fuel mischief politically through their dark money and through their lies.

Speaker 32 We've got to break the back of the fossil fuel disinformation machine, get back to legislating properly, and then there's the possibility that the insurance industry says, okay, now we see an end through this.

Speaker 32 We can work our way through how we redesign products so we can still provide coverage in Florida, for instance, which is really in terrible, terrible shape. Well, it's interesting.

Speaker 32 I can't help when you bring up dark money to see to me how transparent and in the light of day that corruption is.

Speaker 32 I just think about that infamous meeting with oil executives that then candidate Donald Trump had, where he said, give me a billion dollars and I'll roll back basically the 20th century and give you what you want.

Speaker 32 And he did. And he did.
He's trying. And is that a gross exaggeration? It goes back to my opening question to you.
I mean, EPA, this is a wreck.

Speaker 32 I mean, I've seen, we went through Trump 1.0. We went through Bush.
I mean,

Speaker 32 remember, I'm from my old office is in Ronald Reagan's office.

Speaker 32 And so even going back to the James Watts days, and I remember all the vandalism that was being done on the environment back then, natural resources, not just in terms of environmental policy and waivers and the Clean Air Act and the like, Endangered Species Act.

Speaker 32 But this seems, from my perspective, we're just a few weeks into this administration. This seems 10x the acceleration of that kind of vandalism and regressive policymaking.
Am I overstating that?

Speaker 32 No, you are not.

Speaker 32 Just one example that we're looking at a lot, both in the judiciary and the environmental public works committees, is the greenhouse gas reduction fund that the Trump administration is desperate to attack.

Speaker 32 And in order to do so, they're not just having EPA

Speaker 32 try to figure out ways to undo the fund. They got the U.S.
Attorney for the District of Columbia

Speaker 32 to try to cook up a fake criminal case so they could use the fake criminal case as a justification to get a court order freezing the funds prior to seizing them.

Speaker 32 The problem was that the career staff said, there's no crime here. We can't do this.
So, what did they do? Fired the chief of the criminal division, went forward with the political U.S.

Speaker 32 attorney signing the pleading completely on his own. Not one person in that office would sign it.
Then the judge threw it out.

Speaker 32 So they're willing to break through barriers of bad behavior, including maladministration of the criminal laws to try to get harm done to climate initiatives and to try to earn the billion dollars or whatever it was that they spent on Trump.

Speaker 32 We know it's north of 100 million. That was what was disclosed.
Disclosed.

Speaker 32 But when you hide it through C4s and through super PACs and INECOs, and who knows what went into his crypto fund, I mean, the whole thing, it's just really hard to tell.

Speaker 32 But he could easily have gotten the billion dollars. We just don't know yet.

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Speaker 32 You know, it's interesting, I think back, and forgive me for going back to Ronald Reagan, because you have been a recent champion of trying to protect California's waivers under the Clean Air Act.

Speaker 32 And just for those listening, it's an interesting fact, California's modern environmental movement.

Speaker 32 There were many moments, obviously, offshore oil spill in Santa Barbara, but Ronald Reagan really established the regulatory regime as governor in 1967 with the creation of the California Air Resource Board.

Speaker 32 And in 1970, a Republican by the name of Richard Nixon gave Reagan the authority under that Clean Air Act to advance that waiver.

Speaker 32 Same person that brought us the Endangered Species Act, among many other environmental rules, including the EPA itself. Republicans.
I'm old enough to remember not that.

Speaker 32 I wasn't around for that necessarily. But I do remember another Republican, George H.W.
Bush. on the issue of some issues around the ozone layer as well.

Speaker 32 What the hell has happened in this country that we've lost sort of a bipartisan appreciation for clean air, clean water,

Speaker 32 having a life you can live out loud without asthma and being able to live longer and healthier lives? I mean, there's a lot of rhetoric in this space.

Speaker 32 But what the hell has happened, this new reality?

Speaker 32 Well, I think the new reality has a lot to do with corruption and a lot to do with Citizens United,

Speaker 32 which unleashed political spending on an unprecedented level. And nobody had a bigger incentive to spend money politically than a polluter.

Speaker 32 And nobody had a bigger incentive to hide that it was them spending money politically than a polluter.

Speaker 32 So you could go in and make your backroom deal with the Republican Party and say, you knock it off on climate, you knock it off on environmental enforcement.

Speaker 32 We will give you all the money that you need and nobody will know it's us. It'll all come through Californians for Peace and Puppies and Prosperity or some phony front group that will prop up for you.

Speaker 32 And the motives are huge. The International Monetary Fund says that the subsidy for fossil fuel in the United States every single year from being allowed to pollute for free is $700 billion.

Speaker 32 The subsidy. The subsidy.
The American taxpayers are paying in the aggregate.

Speaker 32 In the form of pollution harms that in proper economics are baked into the price of the product.

Speaker 32 But they're not in the price of the product. So they're what economists call a negative externality, which is a form of subsidy.
Ask Milton Friedman, the great conservative economist, right?

Speaker 32 And when you're fighting for a $700 billion subsidy, how much would you spend a year in politics to protect $700 billion? I mean, the number goes through the roof. It's astronomical.

Speaker 32 So the notion that they could have given a billion dollars to Trump, the notion that they could spend $10 billion

Speaker 32 a year influencing Congress is completely plausible when you're playing for stakes of that magnitude.

Speaker 32 It wasn't that long ago that these guys made $63 billion net profit in 90 days. Yeah.

Speaker 32 With some of the most egregious gas spiking we've ever experienced in U.S. history with no account, zero accountability.

Speaker 32 As the price of the barrel of oil was going down, the price of gasoline was going up. And there were no new regulatory impositions or fees attached to that.

Speaker 32 That's the thing about this line that Republicans like to utter,

Speaker 32 that, you know, what we need is energy independence.

Speaker 32 We will never have energy independence in the United States of America with fossil fuel because the price is not set in America. Thank you.
The price is set by a foreign cartel.

Speaker 32 That's exactly where that $62 billion came from.

Speaker 32 Putin comes over the border, prices spike in OPEC, and instead of being being loyal to their American customers and keeping the prices where they were doing just fine, they ramped their prices up to meet the cartel price and gouged and gouged and gouged and made the biggest profits in the history of the corporation.

Speaker 32 Yeah. And somehow they had the American people, hardworking folks, defending these oil companies,

Speaker 32 despite the fact they were directly being fleeced by these same folks, the same petro dictators overseas that were determining domestic policy, not just influencing foreign policy.

Speaker 32 Well, that climate denial machine got turned on full blast to say that this was Joe Biden's fault. Well said.

Speaker 32 And we did not have, and the president then, President Biden, did not have a strategy to fight back. Now, ultimately, they went for the clawback legislation.

Speaker 32 And by fighting for the clawback legislation, they actually turned that issue. where actually people started to blame the fossil fuel industry, particularly once they'd seen those profit reports.

Speaker 32 So we were able to turn that issue, but it took some willingness to fight. And it took a while before the Biden administration got around to where they were willing to fight back.

Speaker 32 There were months in which there was a one-way street of public information all saying Biden inflation, Biden gas price, just Biden did this.

Speaker 32 Which is the great irony because under the Biden administration, we were never more energy independent in terms of net exports.

Speaker 32 I think it's between 13.3 or 4 billion, a million barrels a day that we're exporting, more than Trump administration ever exported. We're also producing more clean energy and green energy.

Speaker 32 And I want to compliment you on the IRA, the $369 billion, the up to a trillion dollars. We'll see where it counts up to, of tax credits and obviously the infrastructure bill.

Speaker 32 Are you seeing the benefit?

Speaker 32 There's been a lot of, you know, I'm talking to Ezra Klein on the podcast, you know, where he thought the mistake of those bills, it wasn't attached to streamlining and green tape and addressing the issue of a regulatory thicket in terms of advancing those alternative energy strategies.

Speaker 32 We could have done more, but right now you're seeing an awful lot of Republicans, senators, and congressmen coming into Jon Thune,

Speaker 32 coming into Speaker Johnson and saying, Hold on, hold on, not so fast. This is a factory in my district.
This is a factory where I've got employees.

Speaker 32 This is an investment where I was there when we cut the ribbon. Not so fast.
So I think we did a fairly good job there.

Speaker 32 It just isn't enough because you simply can't have a competition for energy in which one side, the polluting side, pollutes for free and gets a $700 billion negative externality subsidy and the other side has to fight.

Speaker 32 And plus, with that huge subsidy, they're attacking the other side constantly in the public media, lying about them, attacking politicians. It's a very, very tough environment.

Speaker 32 I will tell you, Governor,

Speaker 32 if the United States of America had the vehicle efficiency standards that California has, the carbon price that California has, if our national energy policy was as good as California's, we would be on our way through this problem.

Speaker 32 We would have a much wider pathway to climate safety. As it is, it is a very narrow path, and we've got to fight really hard to make sure that we succeed.
Well, I appreciate that.

Speaker 32 And again, it goes back to my compliments, and they weren't lightly extended to you for being a fierce champion of protecting our hard-earned status because of those waivers that have allowed us to advance our clean car goals, to allow us to have an influence to support other states' efforts, these 177 states we call them, because we're joining forces.

Speaker 32 We're one of them in Rhode Island. We're right behind you.
God bless.

Speaker 32 And all the other climate alliances we've created, not just in the United States, but also internationally in the MOU, MOU under two coalitions and the like.

Speaker 32 But let me ask you just in closing, there's one major conference coming up. It's COP, what we refer to as COP30.
What is COP? What does COP30 represent?

Speaker 32 And do you think it represents this next big international climate? What do you think this moment represents, Trump, Trump-ism?

Speaker 32 What do you think we represent, you, your state, Rhode Island, California represent to the international community at this critical moment as well.

Speaker 32 What we are seeing is a long litany of fossil fuel lies about what our future is going to be on a collision course with the insurance industry's

Speaker 32 look at what our future is going to be. The fossil fuel industry can lie for free.

Speaker 32 The insurance industry makes trillion-dollar bets on getting it right and has fiduciary responsibilities to do its best.

Speaker 32 And the insurance industry is predicting real calamity with that cascade through real estate markets and into world economic meltdown.

Speaker 32 So if in Brazil at the COP, we are focusing on that insurance risk and what it means for real estate markets, according to The Economist magazine, a $25 trillion hit.

Speaker 32 to the world's largest asset class, real estate. If we can focus on that, then we can focus our minds adequately to find that narrow pathway to climate safety.

Speaker 32 If it's more nebulous talk about ambitions and, you know, green this and all, you know, it's like, no, now we're down to a very narrow path.

Speaker 32 We've got to nail this if we're going to leave our children and grandchildren a pathway to climate safety. I appreciate it.
It's interesting. I mean, just in closing, I appreciate it.

Speaker 32 I really appreciate it. I mean, again, anyone listening appreciates the insurance pressures they're under.
The issue of affordability is the issue of our time. It's defined the last few years.

Speaker 32 I think it had big and outsized size influence clearly in the election, not just here, but around the globe. But the issue of insurance and climate and connecting that dot, I think is profound.

Speaker 32 And so I'm very grateful. Thank you, Senator, for taking the time.
Well, you're living it. Thank you, Governor.
Thank you.

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