And, This Is Flooding The Zone With Truth Ft. Ben Meiselas of MeidasTouch

Transcript

Speaker 1 He's strong, wrong, and fraud. I think the Democratic Party just is insane.
I'm gonna freaking fight for you.

Speaker 2 It's not about power, dominance, and aggression. It's about empathy, compassion, collaboration.
Those are the superpowers.

Speaker 1 I don't wake up and go, this is how I make money. I go, this is life or death.

Speaker 2 So, in today's podcast, I have someone very excited to bring on the air, someone who's just lighting it up with the pro-democracy network. He's built Midas Touch.

Speaker 2 Ben and his two brothers took an idea, penned to paper in 2021, and they built one of the most important networks in the United States of America.

Speaker 2 I'm looking forward to this free-ranging conversation. We're going to talk Trump, Trumpism.

Speaker 2 We're going to talk about the government shutdown, but I also look forward to talking about Ben, how Democrats can come out of the wilderness, how we can get back on our feet, how we can move away from being a party that's identified as weak to a party that can once again assert ourselves much more formally using our moral authority and our formal authority and how we can take on Trump and Trumpism and win the 2026 congressional race.

Speaker 2 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 2 And this is Ben Maisales.

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Speaker 2 Yeah, you're in my studio now.

Speaker 1 I'm in your studio.

Speaker 2 You are initially in my living room. I'm loving this.
And by the way, I didn't know if you actually existed or you're an avatar, one of those AI things from Sora or whatever that Sam Altman put out.

Speaker 1 I used to exist, then I became an avatar. And so that's what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 I actually, I think you're there. You're across from me.
And

Speaker 2 so you are a human being. Look at this.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I want to confirm. We have

Speaker 2 the one and only.

Speaker 2 By the way, he has the Midas touch. Hopefully.
I can confirm on the basis of our fist bumps. That's good.
Right here. Ben Masalas, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 Great to be here, Gov.

Speaker 2 For being here, Podcaster of the Year. Come on, you got the Webby Award.
I did get the Webby Award. Right.
Tell me, don't act like humble bread. You're like, oh, it's really not about the recognition.

Speaker 2 Not really. It's about.

Speaker 1 You know, some people grow up and become governors. Others wouldn't.

Speaker 2 It's a big deal, man. Right? Rubby awards.

Speaker 1 You know, I never expected that this was going to even be a career path for me. I mean, I was a litigator in Bakersfield, Kern County, Franco.

Speaker 1 I lived at the Truxton Marriott for years doing trials out there.

Speaker 2 By the way, it's a better Marriott than most Marriotts, just like the Double Tree in Fresno is a pretty damn good Double Tree.

Speaker 1 Great chicken quesadilla every night that I'd get there.

Speaker 1 Can't beat it. And through that, my work evolved to representing Colin Kaepernick

Speaker 1 in his case with the NFL. Yeah.
Represented him there, and I saw what it was like when the force of large corporations and government at the time, Trump said, get that son of a bitch off the field.

Speaker 1 And in many ways, I feel we're all being Kaepernicked today. So

Speaker 1 I represented him and then transitioned over COVID. I felt like I had to do something.
I wasn't a political guy, figured I needed to do something.

Speaker 1 So I just started talking about politics, not thinking, is this this side or that side? Just, I was scared. I was nervous watching these press conferences taking place.

Speaker 1 And that evolved into where I saw what was needed was a new media network. And then Midas Touch was kind of born after January 6th, 2021, after the insurrection.
We're like, let's be a network.

Speaker 2 So, 2021.

Speaker 2 So, I want to go back to that, because I mean, now it's not only do you get the recognition that you've deserved over the course of the last few years, because more and more people are familiar with the network and the work you're doing.

Speaker 2 And you started with your two other brothers.

Speaker 1 Brett and Jordy, we started this together.

Speaker 1 They weren't involved in politics either. Brett was a digital editor at the Ellen Show.
Jordy did marketing for NBA, and he did campaigns like that. And Jordy's the youngest, eight-year difference.

Speaker 1 Me and Brett are a five-year difference. And we kind of pulled our talents together and said, let's just get out something.

Speaker 1 And so our very first video we did was called Trump the Snake, because you know he tells that story about, you know, the snake and the woman who lets in the snake, and then the snake ends up being.

Speaker 1 So we use that words, and we said, Trump is the snake that America let in and he's harmed America.

Speaker 1 That one took off, got a million views, and then before you knew it, we just started doing videos, videos, videos.

Speaker 1 But then I was like, if we're just showing our videos on TV networks, we're basically renters and they're controlling the narrative. And I said, that's a big problem.

Speaker 1 So we've got to develop our own network. Because we started to see then how they were both sides of the issues, and it was clear to me that was the problem.

Speaker 2 So now you have, and there's different ways of measuring it, but I mean, you have more downloads than Joe Rogan experienced.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so on audio, more downloads than Rogan, by like a significant amount too. Incredible.

Speaker 1 And then on the video side, more views than Fox.

Speaker 1 So we do about on YouTube, 350 million views a month, 375 million views on Facebook, and then across the platforms, you know,

Speaker 1 we're big across all of those. And then Joe Rogan and I go head-to-head on the YouTube charts of who's one and who's two.
And different weeks we kind of exchange one and two. But that's it.

Speaker 2 So I mean, so when you're sitting there with your brother, I mean, you do the first Trump is the Snake.

Speaker 2 I I mean was this was there the aspiration to sort of begin to dominate this space or was there a desire to be sort of the counter to a lot of the more conservative to right-wing podcasting that was out there and the sort of quote-unquote manosphere?

Speaker 2 I mean what was what or was it just literally just your own express grievance and frustration and you just wanted to share it with the world?

Speaker 1 Express grievance and frustration is where it started.

Speaker 1 Never had an ambition of building a network, but what was clear is that what we were doing started connecting with people in a way that I was like, wow, this actually made a difference and this doesn't exist.

Speaker 1 And it kind of shocked me that this didn't exist before. And I kind of pinched myself.
I'm like, why is it that me and my two younger brothers, my sellers' brothers, it made no sense to me.

Speaker 1 And then we did another one and it started to connect even more. And another one, I said, we may be onto something here, you know, and then we just kept on building and building.

Speaker 1 And then it became clear that we should have a bigger ambition. And that bigger ambition is to build this digital media network, an independent media network.

Speaker 1 And so we started talking about pro-democracy, digital, independent media network mid-2021 when nobody, now you hear that a lot, independent media, this, that. We leaned into it right away.

Speaker 1 And then I looked on YouTube and I saw, okay, Mr. Beast is crushing it.
This person's crushing it. And I said, what are they doing though?

Speaker 1 And then I saw that corporate news was using YouTube to dump their old kind of content, but they weren't using it as the hub of their network.

Speaker 1 I was like, lots of people are getting information from YouTube. Let's use YouTube as the central place where the network lives, not as a repository for just whatever your other information is.

Speaker 1 So from that, it was like, let's start doing videos multiple times a day. Let's cover all the news.
Let's bring on guests. So we built up the Midas YouTube channel.

Speaker 1 Then we started building out other YouTube channels. You know, Adam Mockler.
So Mockler's are Gen Z. Like there's no one crushing it in the game right now than Mockler.

Speaker 1 So we helped Mockler build his channel. We have a legal channel called Legal AF.
Katie Fang leaves MSNBC, launched that channel.

Speaker 1 We have a Tennessee Red State channel, Blue Dot Red State, Tennessee Brando channel.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 Aaron Parnas, who's out there, we have his channel. So all of that's now part of the sprawling network.
And those aren't even included. When I give you that 350 million view, that's just Midas.

Speaker 1 When I add the whole universe up and include TikTok, we're talking 2 billion, 3 billion views a month.

Speaker 1 Flood the zone with the truth while MAGA floods the zone with disinformation and tries to bend reality.

Speaker 2 So it's interesting.

Speaker 2 So when you were sitting in there, and I want to unpack all the different directions you're going and all the verticals and how large, I don't think people fully understand this notion of the network.

Speaker 2 Midas Touch is now just much more than just you and what we... see you doing every single day.

Speaker 2 But go back to your reference to Mr. Beast.
I mean, did you go out out there and you sort of look at best practices? And as you said, you were trying to unpack what makes him so resonant.

Speaker 2 I mean, if you've got anyone who has children just knows Mr. Beast, I mean, sort of dominant front and center in the consciousness of people's mind.

Speaker 2 And I'll even find myself watching this guy and just mesmerized by his ability to pull all of us in and the entertainment value and often some educational components and philanthropy, obviously, a big thrust.

Speaker 2 Who else was out there that you were sort of admiring, that you, you know, you sort of sort of sourced some consideration and incorporated into your approach?

Speaker 1 you know I was just looking at all those YouTube channels like mr. Beast there what was also big on YouTube would be

Speaker 1 a lot of influencers who would vlog and they would show themselves like out partying and what they were doing there was a whole genre of like and I know this sounds immature like the prankster youtubers and I just I had a I found some of that stuff funny but then it started getting kind of fake yeah some of it crossed the line but some of it I found in my immature humor to be funny.

Speaker 1 So I mean I just saw what they were doing and a lot of them would tell you what their YouTube strategies were. Like Beast has so many videos where he goes, here's how I do it.

Speaker 1 And I would watch those as we were building Midas Touch, and he would talk about what the thumbnail needs to look like. Why in my videos, when I interview you, for example, I get into it right away.

Speaker 1 There's no long lead up. I throw it to you.
You have to get the audience's attention with your top question, not hide the ball.

Speaker 1 On YouTube, you don't do long intro music, because if you do a long intro music, the audience is like, all right, I don't have that attention span.

Speaker 1 you know just get into it tell me why I care about this to begin with so you take those best practices and you focus on news and for us it was being unapologetically pro-democracy and not in the sense of I support Democrats it's I support human beings and what I found the biggest thing was in being successful on YouTube I read the comments I listen to what my audience is saying I think listening is the key and I think so much corporate news took for granted their audience.

Speaker 1 They were spoiled. They controlled the pipes of how

Speaker 1 media is distributed and delivered.

Speaker 1 So they just took for granted that everybody was going to watch their stuff, but people were getting frustrated on what they were watching, the both sides, the propping up of Trump, normalizing his behavior.

Speaker 1 And what we did is we took a step back, we listened to what people were saying, understanding their struggles.

Speaker 1 And they'll tell you, if you listen, that they feel psychologically tortured right now, living paycheck to paycheck. They'll explain to you what it really means to lose health care.

Speaker 1 They'll explain to you what it means when they see billionaires getting richer and private jet tax exemptions while 42 million people are going to lose their snap.

Speaker 2 They'll tell you that.

Speaker 1 And so you need to listen to that and fight for them authentically and be there for them. And we built a network around that premise.
Now, my views tend to align.

Speaker 1 with people like you because you're fighting for people, but it's not a foregone conclusion when I start this network that

Speaker 1 I'm I'm some democratic influencer or I'm pushing a democratic agenda. I'm pushing an agenda that fights for the people and that's been the secret.

Speaker 1 And we've grown with the community. Mr.
Beast grows because he's got that community. We have what's called the Midas Mighty.

Speaker 1 And the Midas Mighty, whether we're on YouTube or Substack, we've become one of the top Substacks in a very short period of time.

Speaker 1 They go where we go because they trust us and they trust us because we care about them. And they know phoniness from authentic hearing.

Speaker 2 It's amazing. When did you know? I mean, at what point did you guys, your brothers, you sat around and you finished the day and then someone said, hey, boys, take a look.
Look at these numbers.

Speaker 2 And you're like, damn, you know, I'm out there hustling for clients. I'm representing some iconic clients like Colin Kaepernick, et cetera.

Speaker 2 You know, that's my day job. We're just having some fun, doing something that's important, expressing our point of view, putting people first, as you say, listening to folks, absorbing it.

Speaker 2 But when do you know, well, we're on to something.

Speaker 1 2023, I phase out my law practice and I say,

Speaker 1 I've got to do this full-time.

Speaker 2 And so you're doing this, you're not doing the law anymore, huh?

Speaker 1 Not doing that anymore. Wow.
We have a legal channel where we elevate some of the top legal voices.

Speaker 1 Everybody from Michael Popac leads it. Karen Friedman Agnifilo is a well-known lawyer in New York, former top lawyer there.

Speaker 1 We've got a lot of people who give the top commentary, but I'm not like representing people day to day anymore. And now full-time, I mean, the network's pretty big, right?

Speaker 1 So we've got probably nine channels that are under the kind of Midas mothership.

Speaker 1 We've got people across the country and the world. You know, like we'll have someone named Ken Harbor, a veteran.
He'll be in Kyiv or he'll be on the front lines.

Speaker 2 You're going globally.

Speaker 1 Global. Wow.
And we started Midas Canada with a guy named Charlie Angus. We're really big.

Speaker 2 We're about to be the 51st state. Is that it, or what?

Speaker 2 You saw that coming?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 1 we were an important voice fighting on behalf of Canada right after the election.

Speaker 1 And we started bringing in guests like Charlie Angus, who leads the resistance tour there.

Speaker 1 And we made this incredible connection with the people, also big in Australia and a lot of other places. But Midas Canada developed and grew, we sell out.

Speaker 1 big auditoriums in Canada, conservative areas in Northern Ontario, mining towns. This message resonates there.

Speaker 1 You know, and Canada is really one of the front lines internationally in the resistance against this authoritarianism.

Speaker 1 And so, really big there, but international in scope as well.

Speaker 2 It's interesting, and

Speaker 2 what you just referenced subtly, and I want to sort of unpack that as well. It's this notion of being online, but also offline, and people are showing up inline with these large audiences.

Speaker 2 So, you're starting to actually do events and building that out as well, huh?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, and so even think about Adam Mockler. He's out there.
Yeah, he was there recently at that news nation. He was in kind of enemy territory there.

Speaker 1 And Cuomo got all angry and he's like, why is Midas doing, you know, Cuomo went on this like whole crazy thing with Mockler because I think he's jealous of Adam Mockler's just debate skills, if I'm being totally honest.

Speaker 1 But Mockler's out there in those events. We've been doing events across the country and that's what we're going to be adding and kind of bolstering our presence.

Speaker 1 But to me, you really got to have that authentic connection before you go out there.

Speaker 1 And at this point, Midas is big enough where I think we can make a huge impact on college campuses, but just speaking to people, shaking hands, listening to people.

Speaker 2 So when I started this podcast, the first guy I had on controversially was a guy I started, yeah, I mean, it was Charlie Kirk around Turning Point USA and spending time on college campuses.

Speaker 2 And I started to see, speaking to people online, saw these huge crowds, including at USC, where just a couple of days before he was on, the day before he was on my podcast, he was down at USC.

Speaker 2 And my daughter, I mean, my daughter-in-law, my sister's, my niece, but my sister's daughter, showed me photographs and not just the ones online.

Speaker 2 She showed me sort of surrounds and I'm like, geez, this is legit. This guy's turning it out.

Speaker 2 And so we thought we'd turn up the volume in terms of just waking folks up, particularly folks, you know, more progressive audience and more democratic audience to what these guys are doing on the other side.

Speaker 2 Would you consider yourself, and I don't mean literal in this case, but broadly, sort of the antidote to the pro-democracy set in terms of what's going on, not just with Charlie Kirk, but others in that space and what Charlie's network represents today, obviously with his tragic death.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, so I'm a professor at USC. I was there on campus that day.

Speaker 1 I remember that as well. But they're a law professor.

Speaker 2 A law professor.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And I teach undergrad and grad school. You know, and as you see, people like Charlie Kirk and

Speaker 1 that ilk, they

Speaker 1 rapid response and

Speaker 1 they push a lot of disinformation and lies over and over again.

Speaker 1 And there's frankly no tragedy that they won't exploit. I just got to be blunt, that sometimes the bigger the tragedy, a wildfire,

Speaker 2 they're on the receiving end, trust me,

Speaker 1 but to me, isn't that the perfect example?

Speaker 1 Because I bet

Speaker 1 I could be wrong here, but when you were doing all the right things to get the fire trucks ready, the this ready, the helicopter, you positioned everything.

Speaker 2 We pre-positioned days before the actual first ignition.

Speaker 1 And you were doing what, a governor,

Speaker 1 and I don't think, as I watched you, I think it was a 24-hour period where you said, you know what?

Speaker 1 I have to work equally hard on the information battle as I have to do being the governor, which is a crazy realization, but that's the realization right now. Whereas former President Biden,

Speaker 1 he was from a different era. Let's work together.
Let's compromise, bring people people together. I'm fighting for you.
You're fighting for you. He would do that.

Speaker 1 And what they would do, that whole right-wing ecosystem, right?

Speaker 1 Fire hose on. Literally, I meet in with California.
They talk about a faucet that connects California and Canada.

Speaker 1 Which is, you know, obviously. I don't even want to laugh.

Speaker 2 It makes me nervous.

Speaker 2 Ben, you're 100% right. It was such a shame.

Speaker 2 They flooded the zone. They dominated it.
I wish it was just 24 hours. I mean, they won those first few days.
And it was a communications battle that was so

Speaker 2 symmetric.

Speaker 2 I wasn't totally, as someone who's been in this, that faced a recall, that thought I knew what I was doing, that stood up in one of the largest media markets in the world, California, in terms of the size, scope, and scale of some of the biggest media conglomerates that operate out of here and communications specialists, was not prepared for what they were able to do.

Speaker 2 And it was a combination of President-elect Donald Trump.

Speaker 2 It was combined with the weaponization of grievance that was coming from these surround sound networks and the propaganda networks, and then Elon Musk piling on.

Speaker 2 And it was a wake-up call, a big time wake-up call.

Speaker 1 That's the antidote where you have to say, I see what they're doing. So I have to flood the zone with truth and I have to be powerful with it.

Speaker 1 Like I have to be strong and I have to let people know I'm fighting for you because they're wrong and strong and we have to be powerful and strong.

Speaker 2 And we're weak and right mostly. I don't want to be pejorative.
I mean, our presumption is that we're always right. But look, they are certainly strong and wrong.

Speaker 2 But we are, we're trying to be right, trying to, you know, win a debate or something. These guys are playing by a different set of rules.

Speaker 1 And you've said this before: that Trump is weakness, masquerading as strength. And it's important that we stand up to him.

Speaker 1 And look, when he talks about building a ballroom right now while Americans are suffering, while they've destroyed the east wing of the White House, I think also you have to take a step back and you have to mock the behavior.

Speaker 1 Yes, it's so dangerous, but also it's like

Speaker 1 when you grew up, Governor, were you like, I want to build a beautiful ballroom where there's going to be beautiful gowns and people dress it's like what are you even you want a ballroom yeah like what the hell are you even talking about he wants a Kremlin ballroom

Speaker 2 because Putin has one yeah no I mean it's that's why we were putting up those memes with Marie Antoinette I mean it's really extraordinary I mean at a time when the when the government's shutting down we're cutting food stamps California fifth five million people are gonna lose access to snap benefits in literally a matter of days and this guy we saw the just desecration of history it wasn't it's not a house it's what that house represents.

Speaker 2 And he did it intentionally.

Speaker 2 It was to bulldoze.

Speaker 2 You know, it was a way of expressing his power,

Speaker 2 that he doesn't play by the same set of rules. It wasn't just the physical manifestation of the wrecking ball.
It's sort of the wrecking ball that represents his power, his dominance, his aggression,

Speaker 2 his authority over doing things to us, not with us, for us. And it really is an expression, I think, of the moment we're in.

Speaker 2 And so this notion of communication, of his ability to flood the zone, of their ability to shape-shift, of their where illusion rules, facts don't matter, you dominate the narrative, and that's how you ultimately move policy and win hearts and minds in the debate.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 so this is something you fundamentally recognized early.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 you mentioned that you're posting constantly. You're not just doing one half-hour little YouTube channel and putting up.

Speaker 2 I mean, tell us a little bit more about what you're doing in that respect on a consistent basis.

Speaker 1 So, the programming starts 4 a.m. every morning and there's a 4 a.m., a 5.30, a 7, an 8.30.
Then every 90 minutes, there's a 15 to 20 minute video. Usually by me, I'm like 70% of it.

Speaker 1 But look, if you did a three-hour podcast, then you broke it up into multiple minis, you know, not starting at four in the morning, brother. Well, I do those videos in the evening.

Speaker 1 I do them before, to the chagrin of my wife and my little baby. I do some of those at night.
But then we do those all day.

Speaker 1 Then we have contributors come in and fill certain gaps as well on the on that network. Then we'll launch two or three live shows every day at a predictable time.
But it's predictable, it's reliable.

Speaker 1 People start to know, okay, I show up at the four, I get Ben. I show up at the noon, I get this person.

Speaker 1 And, you know, we focus on domestic issues, but we also focus on international issues, as I talked about with Canada, that other people aren't really focused on.

Speaker 1 So, you know, I've been focusing a lot on these fake trade deals that Donald Trump's doing. And I've got a lot of people.

Speaker 2 He's signed some of the most consequential trade deals of our lifetimes.

Speaker 2 How many have been signed, Bob?

Speaker 1 Actually, zero have been, right? Zero have been signed. Yes.
But it's, so remember, they did 90 deals in 90 days. Yeah, remember? They did six or seven fake deals in 90 days.

Speaker 1 But just think about it, as you watch financial media talk about this or corporate media, they just ignore the 90 deals in 90 days.

Speaker 1 And then they pretend that he's done six or seven deals when we know. He's a great deal maker.

Speaker 2 He's just a a deal maker. That's all he wants.
He wants a good deal for the American people.

Speaker 1 And so here's the thing. We know trade deals are very long agreements, usually thousands of pages, very meticulously negotiated.
And let's just start at the most basics because I'm a law professor.

Speaker 1 So deals have to be signed, right? They're usually, and they have to be binding. Like, let's start with the concept of did country A sign it and did the United States sign it?

Speaker 1 In this case, none of these.

Speaker 2 I'm smiling just because, I mean, that's sort of a basic principle.

Speaker 1 None of these are signed, and they're just press releases.

Speaker 1 Or when he goes around and says, I brought in $17 trillion, and it sits on a tariff.

Speaker 2 By the way, it's gone up beyond now $17.

Speaker 2 I think he's, yeah, he's now using $20.

Speaker 1 He's 20. But think about it, though.
So if you've brought in $17 trillion,

Speaker 1 then why can't we fund supplemental nutrition assistance programs, right? Why can't we deal with extending the Affordable Care Act subsidies?

Speaker 1 So what we also, I think, do with our coverage that's smart is we don't just say, ah, he's stupid, he's an idiot, you know, stupid to make it up.

Speaker 2 You also make the point.

Speaker 1 We harness the number and say, okay, sure. 17 trillion.
Take him at his word. So the biggest Ponzi scheme in history, Bernie Madoff, $65 billion.

Speaker 1 So you're engaged in a $17 trillion Ponzi scheme right now, screwing over the farmers and the American people.

Speaker 1 And it's just not, the way I'm describing it is not people's experience watching corporate news. And so our entire framework of how we hit these issues, but it aligns with how people feel.

Speaker 1 And the reaction I get most frequently is, that's how I feel. I thought I was crazy.
And finally, someone's saying it.

Speaker 1 And it's because we're listening to them, but also it's because we're not coming at it from this is a job. Like I'm not, I don't wake up and go, oh, I'm doing this and this is how I make money.

Speaker 1 And I go,

Speaker 1 this is life or death.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 1 And I think they sense that and they see that.

Speaker 2 I love it. I mean, just this fundamental notion of pro-democracy and the fact that you were years ahead of that and understanding.
I mean, we saw democracy lit on fire after January 2nd.

Speaker 2 That's your point. I mean, what more evidence? Try to wreck this country, try to dial up for votes.
And so

Speaker 2 you saw that evidence. You did something about it.

Speaker 2 But I think folks are now finally waking up to this fundamental notion of a republic, a democracy, what it means, what it is, and what it could, you know, might likely be if we don't stand up at the moment.

Speaker 2 But I love the fact that you're able to to shapeshift a narrative that just isn't the back and forth where you have a Scott Jennings on CNN or something, you know, saying one thing in a response, and then sort of a, you know, sort of a cat call of stress and anxiety.

Speaker 2 And you, you just, you know, I mean, you want to start screaming or yelling or throw something at the TV, but you're able to unpack it and bring it into someone's, you know, create a sort of a narrative that connects to how not only you're feeling, but what you're experiencing.

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Speaker 2 I want to go back to just what you just said on as it relates to the farmers. I mean, this to me is one of the most extraordinary stories.

Speaker 2 This notion of the rural farmer, this notion of the person that's the poor soul out there working family farm, doing soybeans, just want fair, free markets.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden, this guy comes in with a wrecking ball, not at the White House, East Wing in this case, but as it relates to these tariffs and the retaliation overseas

Speaker 2 and the impact that's had on their family, their farms, their communities. Same thing with beef and beef prices.
Watch what he's doing to try to supplement

Speaker 2 in Argentina these mistakes, what he's going to try to do with President Xi as it it relates to covering up those mistakes, as it relates to trying to recourse or course correct away from what's happening in Central America or South America.

Speaker 2 I mean, unpack some of this from your perspective and bring it into sort of how you would present the argument to your viewers.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 how is it, though, that these farmers voted for him

Speaker 2 by night? And there's that question.

Speaker 1 But it's because

Speaker 1 he senses their vulnerabilities and he sees their weaknesses and their struggles and then he lies to them like a con artist and a Ponzi schemer.

Speaker 1 It's a skill where he can see it and what Democrats don't ever do is sometimes it's simple but it's important, which is you look at the camera and you have to truly feel this way, but you say, I care about you.

Speaker 1 I hear you and I feel your pain and I'm going to be there and I'm going to fight for you. I hear what you're going through.
I haven't heard a lot of people, you say it now.

Speaker 1 I hear you say it a lot, but you don't hear that a lot.

Speaker 1 And what it is. That's sort of

Speaker 2 a Clinton-esque quality.

Speaker 1 Democrats just assume that I.

Speaker 2 If you were laid off, I probably knew you in Arkansas. Exactly.

Speaker 2 And there was a way, it's all of a sudden you're like, my God, he probably did know me. And why is it sees me?

Speaker 1 And why is it that you see groups of union workers when Trump's whole thing is destroy unions?

Speaker 1 Literally, it's I'm going to destroy you. Or workers that, you know, but he goes there with a pizza, usually cold.

Speaker 1 He takes the photos with them, you know, and people are like, oh, maybe he cares about it.

Speaker 2 I mean, how this guy shows up in McDonald's where 20 states are still giving people $7.25 and ending up on food stamps that he's cutting as a consequence, ending up on Obamacare, which he has no problem doubling and tripling in those states.

Speaker 2 And people are buying this bullshit.

Speaker 1 You know, these are very complex times, and he gives them a very easy answer.

Speaker 1 It's the immigrants, it's the other, it's transgender people, and this is why, and we need to be angry, and I'm going to make this better, and I care about you. Let's do it.
And actually,

Speaker 1 he's the reason why they're in the situation. It's him and his billionaire buds are the ones who are screwing them.

Speaker 1 But how is it that, you know, because he sees it though, and his speeches are kind of geared to it. And Democrats are up there.
It's kind of strong. He's strong, wrong, and fraud, but weakness

Speaker 1 masquerading is trade. It's fraud.

Speaker 1 And oftentimes, I think the Democratic Party just is insane.

Speaker 1 And I'm gonna freaking fight for you i mean when i saw you in the sciu and you were surrounded by the group of union workers oh but for real and but that's a scene that we haven't seen yeah in a while you know rallying rallying workers yeah like that and that's what we need to see more of so when i think about what the farmers are going through it's just a perfect trumpian example it's a ponzi scheme on top of a ponzi scheme now he's going to do another fake trade deal with china maybe they temporarily buy more soybeans look i saved you you created the problem what do you mean you saved me you created the problem.

Speaker 1 And at what expense? You know, he's going to...

Speaker 1 It seems obvious to me he's going to give up Taiwan. Part of this whole deal is to basically say, you take Taiwan, give me a little soybean, and also let MAGA control the TikTok algorithm.

Speaker 1 Xi Jinping knows exactly what the weaknesses are. Trump wants the photo.
He wants the deal. The market goes up for a few more.
That's it.

Speaker 2 That's how I unpack it. I'm going to come back to that because everything you said is worthy of a conversation.

Speaker 2 I just want to go back a little bit to the SAIU because I'm really, I appreciate, for me, that just fills your soul, right? When you, that energy of people. And, you know, I was in a crowd.

Speaker 2 People don't necessarily know what you're referring to. Just the other day, a Prop 50 rally.
And I was giving a speech and I was removed from the crowd.

Speaker 2 And I just felt disconnected in every way, shape, or form. And I just walked right in and just everyone sort of absorbed.
And we're all sort of in this together. And I'm looking around.

Speaker 2 Mike doesn't work. I'm like, I don't need the mic.
And I just, that there's people are, people are scared, man. They're scared.
And I was looking around. There was, I mean, no one looked like me.

Speaker 2 It was the most diverse crowd I'd ever been. I mean, I mean, Latino families, African-Americans, these people's lives are being torn asunder.
Communities on edge.

Speaker 2 By the way, same union I worked with to get $20 minimum wage for fast food workers, $25 for healthcare workers. Only state in the country can lay claim to that.
So I'm really proud of them.

Speaker 2 But this notion of, I mean, people really are vulnerable right now.

Speaker 1 He's launching chemical weapons into communities with ICE. I mean, weapons that are banned in war on a regular basis, he's doing chemical warfare.

Speaker 2 With secret police.

Speaker 2 Let's just abuse it. It's anything but that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Why are you got masks on? Why aren't you identifying yourself? What about due process?

Speaker 2 I mean, why are people allowed to disappear, come back? Is there no recourse? No oversight.

Speaker 1 Waiting in elementary schools, courtrooms.

Speaker 2 15-year-old kid outside school, waiting for a sister to leave school. Disabled kid.
They put a gun to the kid's head. Mistaken identity.
How the hell is that? No accountability, no oversight.

Speaker 2 Where are you, Speaker Johnson, on that? Where's the outrage? So let's go back. This notion of you framing things, which I love.

Speaker 2 The arsonist now is the firefighter, the guy who literally creates the problem, which is exactly, you teed it up beautifully with President Xi and what's going to happen in China.

Speaker 2 All the trade war, all the fire and fury. And he's going to act like he softened it and tempered it.
And you said it. Xi has his number.
The Chinese know exactly what they're dealing with now.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Trump wants to announce a deal, and he wants the photo, and if it could enrich him through the TikTok, that's the him part is TikTok. He wants to control the algorithm.

Speaker 1 He wants his rich oligarch friends who will give kickbacks, in my opinion, back to him. That's part of the plan.

Speaker 1 Originally, TikTok was going to be banned by the Senate and the House. And now it's a leverage point for Xi to use against him, and he walks right into it.
Xi sees it right away.

Speaker 2 It's obvious he sees it. Yeah, he sees it a pretty inexpensive part of the bargain.
Xi Jinping's.

Speaker 2 If he can get Taiwan for giving up the algorithm on TikTok, from Xi's perspective, pretty goddamn good deal.

Speaker 1 The reality is he's already got it. I mean, I'm not trying to be ultra alarmist, although I think it's time for alarm.
Trump wouldn't let the president of Taiwan use American airspace.

Speaker 1 All the guy wanted to do was land en route to Central America. Trump wouldn't let the head of Taiwan land.
So if you're not going to do that,

Speaker 1 you think that he's going to be providing the requisite support? But do you remember back in the day when MAGA was always like, we're China hawks, and they frame themselves as hawks.

Speaker 2 I remember it was the black and white movie days about 10 months ago. Hawks? Hawks.
We're financial hawks. And by the way,

Speaker 2 in many ways, the Democratic Party was becoming, we were kind of competing against.

Speaker 2 It was when everyone starts to agree with something, that's when I sort of took a step back and goes, maybe we should all sort of assess where we are, but 100% right.

Speaker 1 They go, they say they're financial.

Speaker 2 They use hawks all the time.

Speaker 1 The financial hawks. It's like, what do you mean you're a hawk?

Speaker 1 You're the most financially irresponsible people. I mean, it was Trump's first term that added $8 trillion.

Speaker 2 $8.4 trillion. Get your 0.4 right.
I'll get that 0.4 right.

Speaker 1 I'll raise it.

Speaker 2 Oh, he's raised it. He just did another trillion dollars, the fastest trillion of the debt we've ever seen in U.S.
history. Where the hell is he outraged the Republican Party?

Speaker 2 Yeah, the deficit right now. King of debt.

Speaker 1 7% higher right now, year over year than under former president. But under every stat, they're the most fiscally irresponsible.
Yet they go around calling themselves hawks.

Speaker 1 Like, it's, it's, and corporate news, they frame it this way. They let him get away with it.
You don't hear a peep. The guy tore down the white.

Speaker 1 We talked about it before, but the way they normalize, that's the same people who said Obama wore the tan suit and they flipped out and that was the whole

Speaker 2 Washington Post editorial seller saying absolutely it was the right thing to do.

Speaker 1 And they used it in the context of not in my NIMBY

Speaker 2 as if it's the debate we're having in California around housing, local residential housing policy.

Speaker 2 Trump first NIMBYs, they called it. That kind of

Speaker 2 offended the senses of people out here. I mean, I imagine if you're someone like Ezra Klein and others making the case on an abundance agenda, that's pretty offensive.
I think.

Speaker 2 He's trying to sort of co-op or somehow conflate or incorporate that into the argument.

Speaker 1 When I was a litigator, there was an intentional infliction of emotional distress concept.

Speaker 1 Does it shock the conscience?

Speaker 1 That was the standard.

Speaker 1 And Trump has inflicted nationwide intentional infliction of emotional distress. His conduct is conscious shocking.

Speaker 1 And so when people wake up and they're being disappeared by ICE, when their health care is being ripped away, when they're psychologically tortured, living paycheck to paycheck, and people aren't acting with an urgency, they're pissed.

Speaker 1 You notice the numbers of the Democratic Party are going up as they're seeing the fight. They were low because they didn't see people fighting for them, not because they were unpopular.

Speaker 1 They were low because they lost and people don't like losers and also that they're fighting.

Speaker 1 That was the issue.

Speaker 2 Listen to what, I hope everyone just listened to what you said. Could not agree with them.
By the way, that's why I'm very optimistic about November. We're going to win Proposition 50.

Speaker 2 We're going to win in New Jersey. We're going to win in Virginia.

Speaker 2 You've got this young dynamic leader, whether you agree or disagree, whatever flavor you are of Democrat, Democratic, Socialist, Conservative mod, whatever.

Speaker 2 But you've got this young dynamic leader who ran an unbelievable campaign. Success leaves clues.
Talk about media savvy and a communication capacity that's next level.

Speaker 2 I mean, that guy's, I mean, at another level in terms of ability to communicate.

Speaker 1 You know, look, look, look where the crowds are. Look who people, look, this is how I describe it, and it's funny because I got you here.

Speaker 1 I said that there's, you know, on the one hand, you have Governor Newsom energizing people, fighting back, using moral authority and formal authority.

Speaker 1 Then I said, look at Mamdani drawing massive crowds, AOC drawing massive crowds. Bernie, massive crowds in red states of Trump supporters also.
And so we should look at it.

Speaker 1 And by the way, what Momdani did before he even launched the campaign, right after the election, it may have been right when he launched it, was he interviewed. He was listening.

Speaker 1 He did a video right away after the election speaking to people in the boroughs and saying, why'd you do that? And he got the answer. That was very, I think, influential in

Speaker 1 his race.

Speaker 2 I was thinking, as you were describing your approach to building Midas Touch and now the network. That was his approach to building the campaign.

Speaker 2 Ask people what they want, ask them how they're feeling, see them, listen to them.

Speaker 2 I mean, I thought that was a masterclass of common sense, really, at the end of the day. But now

Speaker 2 it's a next generation media savvy as well. And I hope, again, back to your point, just the capacity for us, we've just got to disabuse ourselves of the ways of the past.

Speaker 2 We've got to completely shift gears in terms of now dominating there, flooding the zone, but also becoming the party that is empathetic. It's not about power, dominance, and aggression.

Speaker 2 It's about empathy. It's about compassion.
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Speaker 2 Terms apply.

Speaker 1 We talk a lot about empathy. Yes.

Speaker 1 Because if you listen to also what MAGA says, they go, empathy is for weak people.

Speaker 2 And I got quite the opposite.

Speaker 1 You know, when I grew up, you know how MAGA likes to call themselves Alpha, Alpha, Alpha, you know, which is bullshit. First of all, if you call yourself Alpha, that's weird to begin with.

Speaker 1 But when I grew up, the quote-unquote alphas, the kids in high school, would be the people who would stand up against the bullies and tell the bullies, no, that's not how you behave.

Speaker 1 And you would put your arm around the marginalized community or the people who were being bullied.

Speaker 2 And you would say, I got you.

Speaker 2 That's how I was raised.

Speaker 1 But right now, this idea of the bully has been glorified. And we have to disabuse people of that knowledge and say, nah, that's weakness.

Speaker 1 That's weakness, to your point, masquerading as strength, but that's not how we should treat human beings and stop blaming the problems, the complexities on transgender people.

Speaker 1 And we can't abandon communities.

Speaker 1 I think that's an important point where I think after the election, when people were trying to figure out the post-mortem of what happened, I think that there was a lot of communities that felt, am I going to be abandoned?

Speaker 1 I think the black community, are you saying that

Speaker 1 this is woke and you're not going to support me? And the transgender community,

Speaker 1 I just think that we have to proudly support communities that have been under attack because they're human beings, damn it. And we got to say, we're here with you.

Speaker 1 We're here with you every step of the way and we're fighting for you.

Speaker 2 I love that.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm all

Speaker 2 remember I was part of something called America's Promise. I was tapped by Mayor Willie Brown in San Francisco as a brand new supervisor and it was a volunteer initiative, but it really inspired me.

Speaker 2 We have the largest volunteer corps in America right now, bigger than the Peace Corps. This guy, Josh Friday, who's running for me, our service efforts are next level.

Speaker 2 It's about service patriotism, about common experience. But there was a principle, I remember

Speaker 2 it was a former general

Speaker 2 that said, no one stands taller than when he or she bends down on one knee to lift someone else up.

Speaker 2 And I'll never forget that, this notion, I mean,

Speaker 2 of bending down on one knee to lift other people up.

Speaker 2 And now you watch these guys belittling vulnerable communities, mocking people with disabilities, mocking people that are just trying to survive, as you try to suggest.

Speaker 1 What I love seeing you, I mean, what has become apparent to me as I've watched you is that beyond being a politician or being a governor, you seem to, you know, I guess I'm changing, I'm questioning you now.

Speaker 1 You seem to really enjoy being around people.

Speaker 1 You seem to love the energy in the room and you're at your happiest when you're there versus necessarily doing like a,

Speaker 1 and that to me shows. Like, and I think

Speaker 1 that's what's connecting in my view. But that, I think that's,

Speaker 2 if someone walks up to you on the street and starts to say something, they're starting to tear up and you give them a hug. You're like, this is like this is magical moments, man.
This is life.

Speaker 2 What a gift to just people, communities to be seen.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'll tell you, just, I mean, mean, some of the most extraordinary experiences I've had, period, full stop, have been around some of these ICE raids and with the federalization of the National Guard and walking in some of our diverse communities and just walking the street and having people come up just so scared, don't know what to do, and just be able to hug people and absorb that and just take that in and recognize how

Speaker 2 scared people are, man. And what a gift it is to be able to have this bully pulp at the opportunity to try to do something about it.
It's also, it's humbling.

Speaker 2 There's a tremendous amount of grace in that. But no, this is, at the end of the day, I love that we started, you just talked about this about damn people.

Speaker 2 And, you know, look, I fail in that regard as well. We started, I'm talking about, I remember defending the Biden record.
We're the envy of the world, the best GDP growth.

Speaker 2 You know, we're record-breaking on, you know, this and record-breaking that. I'm doing 15.4 million jobs eight times one of the last three Republican presidents combined.

Speaker 2 And people are like, no wonder we struggle with that message, man. It wasn't, we didn't connect it down to real people.
It was as if we're all living in the aggregate or something.

Speaker 1 The hard part when I was a litigator, though, is sometimes you draw a judge that's appointed by the other side.

Speaker 1 And no matter how much work you put into a case, you could be with that client and you kind of know

Speaker 1 this outcome is going to be a rough one. So the blessing that I have in this current platform is, you know, when I was at the No Kings peaceful protests out here in Los Angeles, I mean,

Speaker 1 it's still a strange concept for me because I don't leave my house all that much because I told you about the schedule that I have when I went out there and all these people are coming up to me and saying, you've changed my life.

Speaker 1 And thank you so much.

Speaker 1 And I was like, I was like,

Speaker 1 that's why I do what I do.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I'm an ironyman, right?

Speaker 1 It just makes me want to wake up earlier every day. And there's not enough hours in the day to be helpful and be in this moment.
And that to me is so key is, are you meeting this moment?

Speaker 1 moment right now and how are you meeting this moment right now and every day before i go to sleep I go did I meet the moment today with my coverage?

Speaker 1 Did I do something to expand the network or to improve? Did I win this messaging war, this information battle that's out there?

Speaker 1 And, you know, I hope to try to answer that yes every day before I go to sleep.

Speaker 2 How do you balance in that space?

Speaker 2 all of the noise constantly chasing, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, every day this guy's shape-shifting, another true social, another crazy meme, another absurd, you know, I mean, this guy's just flood, talk about floods his own.

Speaker 2 He can't even spend 20 minutes relaxing on Air Force One on a flight. He has to run back there and hang out with the president.

Speaker 1 They got the greatest,

Speaker 2 the greatest MRI in the history of MRI. I didn't know there was

Speaker 2 anyone who's been at an MRI. The most perfect MRI.

Speaker 2 By the way, I'm not aware of anyone going into it, get an MRI that wasn't going in for a reason.

Speaker 1 Yeah, when I used to use my MRI when I was speculating, but my MRI freaked me out when I did the MRI. They put me in that machine.

Speaker 2 Just close your eyes. When you're going

Speaker 2 and do not open your eyes, That's the key. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Exactly. But it was, you know, it reminded me of what you said before Trump did the initial invasion and all he wanted to talk to you.
Like that call he had with you

Speaker 2 was

Speaker 2 this right before he federalized the National Guard and put 7,000 active duty Marines on the streets of the second largest city.

Speaker 1 Gavin, you like my hats? I mean, this is.

Speaker 2 How many hats did I sell? What do you think about that?

Speaker 1 What do you think about the debate with Kamala?

Speaker 2 Kamala.

Speaker 2 I forget about you. He did pretty well.
He goes, it was, I said, it was just two, you know, he goes,

Speaker 2 he said some of it was two against one. I said, yeah, it was two against one.

Speaker 2 What do you mean, two against one? He goes, no, it was five against one. The cameramen were against me as well.

Speaker 2 I mean, he's, look, this notion of not being the, it doesn't matter if he's the heel or the hero, as long as he's the damn star.

Speaker 2 And so, how do you, and this goes back to the question I wanted to ask you, how do you sort of curate the moment? Talk about living in the moment and being accountable at this moment.

Speaker 2 How do you

Speaker 2 not fall prey to reacting to what he wants you to react? Because it seems like me, we're perfect little sheep.

Speaker 2 When he sits out there and puts the 2028 hat on there when Speaker Jeffries or soon-to-be Speaker Jeffries and Chuck Schumer are there to troll them, he knows exactly what we're going to do.

Speaker 2 We're going to run with that. There's an old phrase that says he pisses on the grasshoppers just to hear them sing.
So he knows exactly what he's doing in that respect. How do we avoid?

Speaker 2 the temptation to always respond to that versus to focus on the essential.

Speaker 1 I think you have to lead with your principles and your values. And I'm not trying to be corny about that.
Like, like the reality is that we know who we are as a network.

Speaker 1 When we talk about values like empathy, when we talk about pro-democracy, when we talk about

Speaker 1 fighting for people who are going to be losing their health care, when we listen, we can frame things always through that values and principles set. And so it filters through that.

Speaker 1 So it's fairly easy for me not to be like,

Speaker 1 how how should I cover this? And I'm not looking to see, how's this network doing it or that network doing it? I go, how do I feel about this?

Speaker 1 Why did we create this network? And how, and we're so in tuned with our audience that it almost is second nature about how we respond and what areas do we avoid and kind of how to go

Speaker 1 into these issues. Now, I think that there's a process where we evolve over time and we get more sophisticated.
I think that

Speaker 1 mistakes that I've made, I should have focused more on how international events were impacting the United States and not looking in 2024, the election as just a horse race and understanding that there are other factors that are taken.

Speaker 1 But I usually look at it through what's my values and principles set. And I have a broader view than just Trump and MAGA.

Speaker 1 My view is that this right-wing populism, anti-immigrant, is actually not unique to Trump. America's the biggest country.
There you go. So he's, I mean, one of the biggest.

Speaker 1 So he's a vessel of it in a very big and exaggerated way.

Speaker 1 But this stuff coming from Putin and coming from Orban and manifested in Bukeley and Javier-Malay, Le Pen in France, the Reform Party in the UK, this is part of a broader situation.

Speaker 1 And so as I frame the network, it's not necessarily unique to what's the pushback to Trump on a day. Yes, there's some days you need to respond.

Speaker 1 But more broadly is what's the response to this right-wing tidal wave that is

Speaker 1 trying to take down all of the post-enlightened thinking that democracy was built on. And that's really where we are.

Speaker 1 This is a rise of authoritarians and this right-wing population, whatever you want to call it, against all of the building that had taken place really since

Speaker 1 the Declaration of Independence, their Constitution, and developing a more perfect union. That's what it is.

Speaker 1 And as all of this information has flooded the zone, you would think that's a good way that people get educated.

Speaker 1 But paradoxically, I think it's brought us back to the dark ages and the feudal times because lots of information doesn't mean good information.

Speaker 1 And so with AI, with all of this info that's out there, it is what I think the kind of right-wing authoritarians want to create is this kind of lord versus peasant dynamic that existed in the dark ages when people didn't have access to information.

Speaker 1 And I think we risk creeping into that. So it's a long-winded and philosophical answer to your question, but we have to be frame, I'm framed in that.

Speaker 1 And I don't think lots of people who are building networks, I think they go, why did Donald Trump do it? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's a mistake.

Speaker 1 The broader issues is making these holistic connections and gearing the network towards a higher calling. And then I could respond on a day-to-day basis.
What am I going to do?

Speaker 2 I love it. I mean, there's so many things in what you just said that I want to unpack that particularly resonate with me.
This notion of you know your why, you know why you exist.

Speaker 2 And so the what and how is easy than that.

Speaker 2 I think about it, and forgive me bringing up Clinton again, but you know, I remember his campaign, I remember was so resonant to me, and maybe it was just my age at the time, but this notion of community responsibility opportunity, that he was able through that lens to then advance policy and express the why and the what and the how of his campaign and ultimately his presidency.

Speaker 2 But what you said specifically about Trump being an historic figure, I think he's historically, he's an historic figure because he's the most historically unpopular figure, but he's also historically redundant.

Speaker 2 You joked about the call I had with Trump where he starts bringing up MAGA. He goes, hey, Gavin, what do you think of MAGA? It's a pretty good brand.
I said, it's not even original. I said,

Speaker 2 Ronald Reagan had made America great. Heck, there was someone running for governor of California against Jerry Brown her entire campaign.
She put $173 million up to be governor of California.

Speaker 2 And it was Make California Great Again. You're redundant.
And I'll remind everybody, or remind them, if you're not illuminated, or at least illuminate, but it may be interesting.

Speaker 2 There was a guy named Dennis Kearney in the 1880s in California. He was in the East Bay, San Francisco East Bay.
He ran the Working Men's Party.

Speaker 2 And he literally began and ended every speech. I'm trying to connect President Xi right now, to whatever else we do.
He ended every speech. Whatever else we do, the Chinese must go.

Speaker 2 And they were building virtual walls. I mean, you can go back to the Chinese museums all across the state of California.
You'll see all of these old illustrations around the Chinese must go.

Speaker 2 Chinese were the scapegoat. They're the reason you don't have X, Y, and Z.
We have to build the virtual wall and keep them away. It led to the Chinese Exclusion Act in the late 1880s.

Speaker 2 And everything that Dennis Curdy represents is what Donald Trump represents today. He's an historic figure that literally is a redundant figure in terms of this larger historical

Speaker 2 experiment. And it's important for us to remind ourselves of that for two reasons.
One

Speaker 2 is that we maintain our resiliency. We're able to work through and around

Speaker 2 these kinds of figures, but also to remind ourselves that we have to be vigilant as well in the authoritarian frame that you just advanced.

Speaker 1 He's deeply unpopular right now.

Speaker 2 Historically unpopular.

Speaker 1 37 percent

Speaker 2 in almost every category. Every category.
Weakness. Again, weakness.
Why is he trying to rig the election? Weakness. Why is he calling the governor of Indiana? Why did he move in Missouri?

Speaker 2 Why is he moving in, why did he move in North Carolina, let alone Grega? Weakness. He's trying, he recognizes the clock.

Speaker 2 They're going, his minions are going after everything because they know the gig's up next November. Weakness, forgive me.

Speaker 1 No, and he thought that by now he would control every layer of this. You know, he thought he was what he calls an arc.
He thought he would build his triumphal arch. This is what he is.

Speaker 1 That's the next focus after the golden ballroom, the triumphal arch.

Speaker 2 I forgot it. Forgive me.
I even forgot about that. The little figurine that he has in the middle of the morning.
The little figurine that he's showing everybody.

Speaker 1 So he thought, he thought that everybody.

Speaker 2 It's like the arc of triumph. Oh my God, that's coming, guys.
Pay attention to that.

Speaker 1 Sorry, man.

Speaker 1 He thought that everybody was going to submit by now. So the fact that we're here right now in October, heading to the November 4th Prop 50 vote, you've exercised your moral and formal authority.

Speaker 1 You've inspired other states to step up. And we'll see what they're going to do.
See what they're going to do in Virginia. Virginia.
We'll see what they're going to do. Maryland, hopefully.

Speaker 1 We see Leader Jeffries is in Illinois this week. So we'll see.

Speaker 1 But that's why you call it Prop 50 also, because it's not just about 50 states.

Speaker 2 It's not just about government. About the United States of America.
It's about, again, I keep saying it,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 my God, how blessed are we? I mean, this notion of co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, rule of law,

Speaker 2 it's an extraordinary, it really is. I mean, I know you can get, you know, you can sort of fall into a romantic notion of it.

Speaker 2 It's hardly imperfect, but this notion, the architecture of this 249 years, you can't take it for granted.

Speaker 1 How about this?

Speaker 1 When I talk about the shutdown, I talk about fifth grade and schoolhouse rock, my fifth grade government class, that our system works where the parties are supposed to talk with each other.

Speaker 1 The idea that MAGA Mike Johnson ordered by Donald Trump to say, we're not going to talk with Democrats, let alone negotiate with Democrats. That's how I frame this issue in a very basic way.

Speaker 1 I go, one side's not even talking. when 20 million Americans' health care is about to be ripped away.
The other side, the Democrats, are there to talk and negotiate and try to figure out a solution.

Speaker 1 So let's just keep these issues pretty freaking simple here. Why don't they want to talk? Why do they want to do everything in silent? Why does Leader Jeffries say, let's do a negotiation in public?

Speaker 1 Why did Donald Trump not want the cameras in the White House with the meeting with Leader Jeffries and Schumer? And you know what they said afterwards? That would just be theater.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump and Mag and Mike said that would just be theater.

Speaker 2 I never thought it would be theater. Donald Trump's saying it would be theater.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 In the theater of the absurd is the fact, and I'll just remind everybody, that he canceled, Donald Trump canceled the meeting just a week before the government shut down with the two leaders because of public pressure.

Speaker 2 He decided to agree to that meeting that he did in private with the 2028 trolling hats that they sent out as a tweet. And that weekend, right before the shutdown, he went golfing.

Speaker 2 He had zero interest in a deal. Period, full stop.
Where is the President of the United States now? He's overseas. It's important to be overseas, but hold on.

Speaker 2 Don't you think it's more important to address the domestic crisis of his own making right now?

Speaker 2 The airport shut down here in Los Angeles just this week, the fact that we have millions and millions of people during Thanksgiving that are not only paying more than they've ever paid for beef, paying more, 10.8% as of today, more for Halloween candy.

Speaker 2 They already had the indignity of paying more for their backpack and school supplies. God forbid he's not successful at President Xi.
He may ruin Christmas for us. He's nowhere to be found.

Speaker 2 Speaker Johnson, as you said, doesn't want to negotiate.

Speaker 2 And Donald Trump quite literally doesn't give a damn that people's insurance, health insurance is going to be lost or tripled because he, in his big, beautiful bill, just did the biggest cuts to Medicaid in American history.

Speaker 2 Forgive me for the long-windedness. God bless the Democrats for standing up on all these things and being willing to fight for these things.

Speaker 1 Think about with President Xi. What's the biggest issue, China, U.S.
is China's stronghold on rare earths and their ability to implement price controls, shut down the market of rare earths.

Speaker 1 That's not, whatever this framework is, is not going to even address that. It's going to be window dressing so that Trump can say, look, I got soybean farmers, this at the expense of Taiwan.

Speaker 1 Look at the Middle East. They announced that what took place between Hamas and Israel was a peace deal.
It was a ceasefire, and a ceasefire is a good thing. We want a ceasefire.

Speaker 1 We want the hostages' return. But they didn't address the central issue of whether there should be a two-state solution.

Speaker 1 So, how do you do a peace deal and not address that there should be a free Palestine in that?

Speaker 1 And how is it that Hamas wasn't a signatory, Israel's not a signatory, to going back to what we said earlier, to this ceasefire.

Speaker 1 And while we've seen dozens and dozens or more more deaths of Palestinians while Hamas has retaken control of Gaza while Netanyahu doesn't support a two-state solution

Speaker 1 yet everybody's like oh there must be a peace deal I'm like you didn't fundamentally historic peace deal unprecedented peace deal he's moved on look former President Biden brought back 83 percent of the hostages Great Donald Trump brought back the remainder both great yes but the issue ultimately is when we talk about these stories from a media network's perspective when I was watching that and seeing how is corporate news covering it, peace deal, Time magazine cover one week, Time magazine cover the next week.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, what are we talking about? Like, am I in some crazy world? I go, did they even address two-state solution? And they didn't.

Speaker 1 So I'm like, then what are we, we know where this is headed, though, if we don't address that fundamental issue.

Speaker 2 Exactly right.

Speaker 1 So you could look at all of his conduct. We always see this fraudy element of it.

Speaker 1 And to your point, bringing it back to domestic, the American people are suffering while while he's doing all these things. The American people are

Speaker 1 and not as some talking point dose. No, they're really suffering.
People are terrified right now that they're about to lose their health care. Who can pay another $20,000 a year?

Speaker 2 $27,000 is the average household cost for health insurance. $7,000.
The average

Speaker 1 people can't afford $1,000 more a year. Yet $27,000 is crazy.

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Speaker 2 So back to just what you're doing. I mean, people feel like they're going crazy.
And it's nice to find, you know, just sort of what you do is a place where they feel, you know, a sense of well-being.

Speaker 2 And you can sort of distill their fear and anxiety and express a relationship to it, but also an understanding of the broader context.

Speaker 2 And it begs this question.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's old Tom Freeman, he used to say, the question that he thinks everyone should wake up and ask themselves and answer every elected official, every leader, broadly defined, is what world are we living in?

Speaker 2 And what are the trend lines that define this world? So I'd ask you more broadly, what world do you think we're living in in the broader context?

Speaker 1 Well, I don't want to be living. in the world of dawn, okay?

Speaker 1 I want to be living in a world where we aspire to be good. Like, let me just keep it way.

Speaker 2 The thing, the one thing the founding fathers never considered is the notion of good character, just goodness.

Speaker 2 You know, it's a piece of paper of the Constitution. This notion of co-equal branches of governments, I mean, we've seen with the supine Congress, supine Supreme Court.

Speaker 2 I mean, we got a Supreme Court that literally, the Kavanaugh Court in this case, because he did that brief, where he says it's okay to racially profile based not just on the color you're spinning, but where you congregate and the language you speak.

Speaker 2 And obviously, the supine nature of

Speaker 2 this

Speaker 2 speaker, Mike Johnson. But this ocean of character is foundational, isn't it? It's imbued in all of it, but it was never expressed ultimately.

Speaker 1 The Constitution is a contract. And going back to my being a professor, in every contract, there's the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing.
In the Constitution as well, good faith.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump's history of bankruptcy, his history of fraud, his history of being a felon, his history in general is one of bad faith, ripping contracts apart, they don't matter.

Speaker 1 The ultimate contract he's ripped apart is the Constitution. So to me, the Constitution can address every aspect of the good faith and fair dealing.

Speaker 1 I think that the founders, and this was perhaps a flaw in the document, you know, potentially, was that people would behave in a way of good faith and fair dealing within the broader principles.

Speaker 1 And we would assume that...

Speaker 2 We disagree with them, but you know, and they may color around the lines a little bit, but

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 So that needs to be brought back. And that's not talked about a lot.
Moral character and being a good person and behaving, you know, as an adult and a grown-up.

Speaker 1 And I worry, you know, I'm raising a one-year-old girl right now, and I'm glad that she doesn't fully see this right now.

Speaker 1 But I worry, especially, you know, when I teach these students who have now lived with Trump for they're going to be going on however long it's going to be,

Speaker 1 and that's been their life, that their worldview is shaped by bullying and low moral character or no moral character. And that's a problem.
But that's why I think it's incumbent

Speaker 1 upon us in general, as a network, as a governor, as a professor, wherever we are in our day, to reflect good moral character to the best of our ability. And we're all going to make mistakes.

Speaker 1 We're all human. We shouldn't be judging anything.

Speaker 2 And we're not talking about holier than thou. It's just some basic principles.

Speaker 1 Do our best. Yeah.
Just try.

Speaker 2 Trevor Burrus: No, I love that. So look,

Speaker 2 Democrats seem to be doing their best. They seem to be united as it relates to this singular message around health care.
But to be fair, it's even more than health care, though.

Speaker 2 I think they've done a brilliant job highlighting that issue.

Speaker 2 It's what you just said, this notion, not the rule of law, but the rule of dawn, that the Constitution doesn't matter, nor does the Congress.

Speaker 2 Whatever the Congress says, President with Russ Voigt, what he claims, or as he refers to as Darth Vader, his words, not mine,

Speaker 2 they'll just do whatever the hell they want. Congressionally appropriated funds, they're going to redirect them away from blue states, blue districts to red states and red priorities.

Speaker 2 How the hell, under those circumstances, does this shutdown ever end?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean, that's why I think you have to continue to have. First off, I don't think it's going to end this year.
And frankly,

Speaker 1 I don't fully know if it's going.

Speaker 1 The way it'll end, I think, is they'll kill the filibuster in the Senate.

Speaker 2 I see, I agree with you. It's interesting you say that.

Speaker 2 I think that needs that's that's got to be more socialized. Yeah.

Speaker 1 To me, that's what's going to happen.

Speaker 1 People are going to get their letters November 1st that their monthly premiums are going up $2,000, $3,000 or whatever, $24,000.

Speaker 1 People are going to rightfully panic, and Trump's still not going to want to do a

Speaker 1 he's not going to want to talk. He'll order Thune to kill the filibuster.
And that and to me, that's what they're going to do.

Speaker 1 I mean, but but the way we frame that there is almost the way Zelinsky had to frame Putin coming in and let people know in advance what the plan is so that it was socialized before in anticipation.

Speaker 1 And when you think about these historical figures, Trump kind of thinks that, kind of thinks that way. So you have to prepare people for what the moves are, which is what we try to do on the network.

Speaker 1 And that's where I think this ends up heading because Trump's never going to speak with, he's never going to allow Magamike to even speak with Democrats. It's not about the pressure.

Speaker 1 Trump likes the suffering. Like, he doesn't care that people are in pain.

Speaker 2 Cruelty and chaos is the policy. Exactly.
It's the one thing all these things have in common, quite objectively.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't think that would offend them, the cold-bloodedness of Stephen Miller as the implementer in all this. I mean, period, full stop.

Speaker 1 Cruelty, chaos. But that's where Democrats can't be complacent and where they got rightfully a lot of grief.

Speaker 1 was when it seemed that they very early on were just going to let Trump steamroll over them and they were not speaking powerfully at that time and it was not being communicated in a way.

Speaker 1 But in this shutdown fight, it does seem that they've communicated it, that they're being more public and I feel a better sense of, okay, I see, and I think it was the right move to focus on health care, not because of the strategic aspect, but because health care, living, like living is one of the main conversations.

Speaker 2 Disproportionately benefiting, I mean, it's universal. It's not just universal health care.
It's universal. I mean, it's foundational in our lives, and it connects every single person together.

Speaker 2 Disproportionately in these red counties, which is the great irony of this. Who's representing whom? Democrats have your back to my Republican friends.

Speaker 2 We have your back, and we're happy to come back to the negotiating table to fight for you. The President of the United States has no interest.

Speaker 1 But then I say, well, then what's your plan? Donald, show me the plan. Because

Speaker 2 he has an idea of a health care plan.

Speaker 1 Remember that? 1,600% discounts, is what he says. He's going to reduce health

Speaker 1 discounts. That means they're going to pay you.

Speaker 1 Can you have 1,600 or med beds? He's posting that there's secret UFO and outer space technology. We're going back to the MRI.
You go and

Speaker 2 I got to whisper that because

Speaker 2 that's between us. You know about the med bed? Of course, I mean, you know, that is what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 We'll edit this later.

Speaker 1 When you're a governor, they read you in on med beds.

Speaker 2 Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 1 Sorry, you know, unbelievable. You got to tell me about the med bench.

Speaker 2 No, I mean, that's a hole.

Speaker 2 Look how uncomfortable I am. This is very difficult.

Speaker 2 Let me step back and I'm mindful. You got to get back to doing your damn work.

Speaker 2 I'm with the governor. I appreciate it, man.

Speaker 2 I really appreciate this conversation on so many levels, but I want to sort of step back and connect because I want to talk about, I mean, it's interesting, your perspective on the end of the filibuster, which I completely subscribe to.

Speaker 2 And I think more and more people are going to start to understand that's likely going to be the outcome.

Speaker 2 We can talk a little bit more about where we are on November 4th because I think we're going to be in a much better place.

Speaker 2 And I think you've expressed why in relationship to what you just said: where we were as a party, how we acquiesced as it relates to the last potential government shutdown, and now Holly, we're finally unified and we're in a position of strength because we have both, as you suggest, the moral authority and formal authority where we're actually exercising our minority rights.

Speaker 2 That said,

Speaker 2 what do you make of the DOJ being sent out to Virginia? DOJ sending out election observers here to California, five particular counties.

Speaker 2 What do you make of the federalization of the National Guard through Election Day?

Speaker 2 Forgive me in the pejorative because a lot of good people that work for this agency, but I don't like how they're being abused and I don't like the way our communities are being assaulted and abused.

Speaker 2 So I don't say secret police lightly, but ICE and Border Border Patrol masked

Speaker 2 that are out in and around

Speaker 2 Democracy Center where we did our kickoff for Prop 50 that I believe will be in and around polling booths and voting places around Election Day, not just this year, but next year.

Speaker 2 What do you make of all of these things that are happening? Are they coincidental? Is it part of a larger strategy?

Speaker 1 The strategy is Donald Trump doesn't want elections. He doesn't like elections.
He wants to be anointed king. He thinks like an authoritarian.

Speaker 1 So it's a test run for what he wants to do at the midterms, but more than a test run. It's very serious.

Speaker 1 He wants to send people at the DOJ, what he calls election watchers, to intimidate people. And without an appropriate check, without pushback, I think he wants them there to literally scare people.

Speaker 1 I think he wants the ICE agents to do what they're doing. I call it what it is, the chemical warfare, the gas canisters that they're throwing, the intimidation tactics.

Speaker 2 The great Bovino himself, the head of order

Speaker 2 through a damn container after being told you can't do it. The hell is that? Who the hell does he think he is?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, and you saw him, what he was doing outside of your event with a tough guy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what a just a bloviating guy. I mean, seriously, Jesus.
I mean, how the hell?

Speaker 2 I mean, well, we're going to talk about winning in a minute.

Speaker 1 Keep going. Well, you know, and then you have

Speaker 1 Borders R. What's his name?

Speaker 2 Oh, God. Bagman Homan?

Speaker 1 Homan, Bagman Homan. Well, forgive me.

Speaker 2 I don't mean to be, but I mean, where's the $50,000?

Speaker 2 Like, literally, can't they tell us where the $50,000 in cash is?

Speaker 2 I mean, just seriously, where's the $50,000

Speaker 1 impressions?

Speaker 2 It's like, where's the damn Epstein files? Who's in it? I'm starting to get into that. Like, what the hell is that all about, too?

Speaker 2 You can't even swear this person. What the hell is going on?

Speaker 2 Even if you weren't following this, now you'd be like, okay, hold on. Why is Ghelane Maxwell on a minimum security? What the hell is going on?

Speaker 1 I've spoken with a lot of the victims or the survivors of Epstein on the podcast, and they said, the strange thing about it is what the survivors will say, we weren't even really that focused on Trump.

Speaker 1 Like, that wasn't why we were,

Speaker 1 he goes, but he's just made it. This is what they'll say.
He made it about himself. He centered himself as that this is a thing.

Speaker 2 He's really starting to see that.

Speaker 2 I never thought it was. Now I'm actually wondering what is in there.

Speaker 1 And now all the survivors are like that.

Speaker 2 I mean, I thought about just the tragedy. I mean, just, and never forget these poor victims and these poor souls, people that take their life.
God bless, but no, there's a there,

Speaker 2 undoubtedly, in that respect.

Speaker 1 And we know from all of the reporting out there that his name is all over those files, apparently, and that he was told that. Anyway, that'll be our next interview.

Speaker 2 We'll talk about that men's thing after the media.

Speaker 2 There's no issues there. I know.
Everyone's, what the hell we're talking about. Look it up.
Look it up.

Speaker 1 So this is obviously part of a broader strategy to intimidate, to make people not show up to the polls.

Speaker 1 Obviously, they tried to flood the zone right away saying that Prop 50 was unpopular. They pushed it, but you pushed back right away.

Speaker 2 They put in 50 million to do it. Right away.

Speaker 1 And that was a fight. And people still obviously need to go out there and

Speaker 1 put in the ballot. You know, home stretch, work harder than ever.

Speaker 1 But they're looking at Virginia and they're seeing Spanberger and what a great campaign she's run versus Winsom Earl Sears.

Speaker 2 Mikey, I mean, she's.

Speaker 1 also been amazing in New Jersey. So they're targeting those areas

Speaker 1 for a reason. And it's part of a broader intimidation campaign.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So it's begs the question.
I mean, we have these campaigns. We have their campaigns.
Are you of the opinion that November 4th is going to be a big night for Democrats?

Speaker 2 It could create some directional momentum, some enthusiasm potentially for the party, a sense that sort of we're on the precipice of turning the page or have turned the page or turning the corner in terms of being on the march.

Speaker 2 I mean, the seven, I love that you said the No Kings peaceful rally. Thank you for the way you framed that.

Speaker 2 Seven million people showed up for each other, not just for themselves, for their kids, their communities, for our future.

Speaker 2 The world, I mean, in many respects, it counts on the United States as

Speaker 2 a stable partner.

Speaker 1 I think we're going to be the biggest peaceful protests in the history

Speaker 2 of the United States.

Speaker 1 And remember when they did those Tea Party things back in Obama? There was like 500,000 people who showed up, and that got all the coverage in the world.

Speaker 1 You just see the difference there. But I think it's going to be a big day, but.

Speaker 2 But.

Speaker 1 So you're not there yet. No, no, no.

Speaker 2 I don't like buts. How about and?

Speaker 1 And we need to work. And we need to work very hard, though.
I don't want to take any day for granted. There you go.
And I think that's how I see November 4th.

Speaker 1 That's how I see the midterms is and our reporting and our network in general.

Speaker 1 It's to always approach every day with kind of the utmost humility and recognize that, you know, anything can change in any given day. And again, we just have to win every day from now until then.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I played soccer in high school.

Speaker 1 And so, you know, just thinking about, you know, how a match is ultimately played, it is, even if you're up, you know, 2-0 or 3-0 at halftime, that doesn't mean you go.

Speaker 1 I think we're absolutely, you know, you just got to go to locker room and you got to finish. Even if you're up in the second half, you still got to, you know, keep going.
And so no matter what,

Speaker 1 I feel good,

Speaker 1 but feelings and vibes, we have to manifest the outcomes versus just believing that there are people out there that'll do it. And I think that's something that you've shown and other people.

Speaker 1 I hope the Midas Touch Network's shown that if three brothers, if me, my two brothers, and I'll give a shout out to my whole team here, Salty and Jeremy and all the great people,

Speaker 1 they better give me a shout out in front of Newson.

Speaker 2 Salty. Anybody.
Anyone named Salty is my kind of guy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, UC Santa Barbara guy.

Speaker 2 You see? UC Salty. Talk about him.

Speaker 2 There you go, Salty. I did that one for you.

Speaker 1 It was not a foregone conclusion that three brothers with very little political experience, zero experience,

Speaker 1 no media network experience,

Speaker 1 would be able to manifest this.

Speaker 1 And so the message I hope it sends to everybody, whether your skill is an educator, a chef, a songwriter, a builder, whatever your skill is, a flower maker, whatever, a florist, flower maker.

Speaker 1 Just do whatever your skill is and contribute and you can make a, you know, send letters, you know, show up, you know, knock on doors.

Speaker 1 And you've said this a lot, that the future is something that you manifest and not experience.

Speaker 1 And we can't just think that because the American experience has been a certain way, it will be there for us. This whole lesson is quite the contrary.
And so, we each play our own part every day.

Speaker 1 That's the Midas Touch part that we've played in our own way, and we can all do little things.

Speaker 2 I love it. I mean, it's yeah, the spirit of the future is not something to experience to manifest.

Speaker 2 It's inside of us, not in front of us. So, here's to the future.
You're crushing it, brother. It's amazing what you built.

Speaker 2 But what you built is not just a platform,

Speaker 2 it's a capacity, it's given the Democratic Party real hope and sense of momentum that we can finally get back

Speaker 2 on the messaging side of this war as well, and that we can communicate more effectively, we can reach more people and be strategic about it as well.

Speaker 2 And I just, you know, most folks I know on this podcast know a little bit about you guys, but I don't think they appreciate how you are crushing it and how you're completely reinventing the game for the pro-democracy folks out there.

Speaker 2 And so just mad respect to you. Keep it up.

Speaker 2 To Salty, thank you, brother.

Speaker 2 Ben, it's been a hell of a conversation. I really appreciate it.
Thank you, guys. Absolutely.

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Speaker 72 It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte.
Get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha.

Speaker 72 Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

Speaker 3 This is an iHeart podcast.

And, This Is Flooding The Zone With Truth Ft. Ben Meiselas of MeidasTouch

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