And, This Is Trump's Shutdown With Senator Chris Murphy

Totalitarianism and monopoly go hand in hand.

Don't make the healthcare system any worse.

Don't jack up premiums on people by 75%.

And don't act lawlessly.

History tells us that when the people stand up, something magical happens.

Well, I don't need to remind everybody that the government is shut down,

but we are not shut out from getting a deeper understanding of what's going on in Washington, D.C., because we have one of the most prominent Democratic voices, someone who has been a fierce defender of democracy and free speech, who is one of the leaders in the resistance against Trump and Trumpism that can unpack and unveil what's going on with health care in this country, what's going on in terms of negotiation with the government shutdown, but also broaden the aperture to what's going on in American cities with the increasing militarization, with our National Guard, and what's happening to the state of our democracy.

This is Gavin Newsom.

This is Senator Chris Murphy.

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Senator Murphy, it's great that you took the time to be with us today.

I continue to make this point behind your back anytime I'm asked, they said, who do you admire out there in the Democratic Party?

Who, from your perspective, particularly in Washington, D.C., stands out.

And every single time first name comes out of my mouth is you, sir.

And so I'm grateful for this opportunity to check in and

check up on what's going on in this country, including just what happened as we were taping this just an hour or so ago.

Pam Bondi, the Attorney General of the United States,

at an oversight hearing that sounded more more like cross-examination coming from Pam Bondi doing op research on Democratic senators.

And what was your reflection of that?

Well, Governor, awesome to be with you, man.

The compliment is turned straight back around.

What you're doing out in California is absolutely essential.

People need to feel like we are powerful, not powerless right now.

And you're delivering people that sensation that there's still things we can do to save our democracy.

Yeah, I mean, I watched some clips of that hearing.

You know, she acts like somebody who works for a guy who believes he's a king, right?

Believes that they're accountable to no one.

She clearly showed zero deference for the United States Congress and Senate.

That's

probably understandable given her combative boss and how much she wants folks out there making news and creating viral clips.

But it just is representative of the way the entire administration operates.

They're not bound by the law.

They're not bound by the Constitution.

They don't believe they're accountable to the people.

They certainly don't believe they're accountable to the Senate.

And I think that's wearing thin on folks.

You know, 80% of Americans now say that we're in the middle of a political crisis.

More than 50% of the country is worried about losing their right to free speech in the short term.

So I don't think she does her boss any favors by

acting so childish

representing the Department of Justice in front of the United States Senate.

I don't know if you think differently.

That's interesting.

And I want to unpack that because I think the point you're making is an important point about how, quote-unquote, unpopular are so many of the positions, not just the president's overall popularity itself, but a lot of the positions

he has been promoting, including members of his own administration.

But I wonder if, just in the administration of oversight, did you reflect on that and reflect on the fact that Democrats may need to change their tactics in terms of how they even begin to

prepare for subsequent oversight hearings.

Yeah, I mean, these hearings are becoming jokes because she's not even attempting to answer these questions.

You know, when we send basic oversight letters to these agencies to ask questions about how they're spending money, they never, ever respond.

And so, yeah, I do think you need to understand that right now they perceive these hearings to be reality TV shows.

And you're unfortunately, whether you like it or not, going to have to approach the hearings in that way.

But I also think, Governor, you know, that we've got to make clear that the oversight here, especially when it comes to the illegality, is permanent.

Because someday Democrats are going to be back in charge of the House and the Senate.

Someday we're going to have the power of subpoenas.

Someday there's going to be people in the Department of Justice who actually want to administer the law on its face.

And so I just think we're going to need to say to these folks, you know, save your records, because if any of you have committed actual real illegality,

you know, you are ultimately going to have to be held accountable for that, either by being hauled before Congress and

be forced to swear in and tell the truth and be held accountable for perjury or before a court of law.

So the oversight is going to be much more real and much more forceful when Democrats are back in charge.

And And we'll get to getting back in charge, talk a little bit about redistricting in 2026, particularly as it relates to not just the Senate, but obviously the House.

But first, I want to sort of paint the picture of where we are today.

We're now in this government shutdown.

We haven't broken any records, but we're not necessarily breaking any new ground in terms of breakthroughs

based upon at least what I'm reading and understanding and hearing as it relates to the prospects of a deal.

Where do you think things stand at this stage?

And how do you think we have positioned ourselves, the Democratic Party, and how do you think we get out on the other side?

Well, I mean, I think it's first of all important to understand that Trump is rooting for a shutdown, right?

Because he does believe that he has these extraordinary powers.

He's come to believe that those powers get bigger in a shutdown.

That's not true.

He also roots for chaos.

And the fact of the matter is there's more chaos when the government is shut down.

Cruelty is the point to this administration, and things get crueler when Head Start centers don't open and federal employees don't get their paycheck.

But what Democrats' priorities are here are pretty damn reasonable.

What are we asking for?

We're saying, listen, the healthcare system isn't fair and it's a mess.

We just don't want it to get worse this fall when premiums are scheduled to increase on people who have Affordable Care Act plans by 75%, 100%.

So let's just make sure that those premium increases don't go into effect.

And then, second, let's make sure that if we write a budget that says you have to spend money in all 50 states, the president is actually required to spend money in all 50 states instead of not spending money in places like California and New York and Connecticut that are represented by Democrats and spending money in states represented by Republicans.

So, I mean, our asks are pretty minimalist.

Just don't make the healthcare system any worse.

Don't jack up premiums on people by 75% and don't act lawlessly.

If we get those two things included in this budget, then I think you're going to see democratic votes.

And I think increasingly the American publicers are beginning to see that what we're asking for is pretty damn popular and not terribly piggish.

And it seems to have been reflected in the president's own comments, where it seemed at least politically attuned to the popularity of health care and the imperative to actually figure this out, suggesting that he's quote unquote a Republican but likes health care and thinks he can, quote, unquote, make a deal.

But it doesn't seem to me there's any substantive conversations, or are there substantive conversations being held?

There are not.

And the clearest evidence of how unserious Republicans are about negotiating is the fact that they're not here.

So the House of Representatives is not in session.

This is the third week that they've been on kind of an unscheduled recess.

Part of that is that they don't really want to negotiate a way out of the shutdown.

Part of that, we could talk about it, is that they're about to vote on the Epstein resolution.

And the minute they come back into session, a new Democrat will be sworn in, giving them the magic number of votes on a resolution that would force a debate and vote on the Epstein resolution.

But no, there are no real negotiations happening right now.

But, you know, those premium increases are getting closer and closer and closer.

And as more Americans get their notices that they're about to see a $5,000, $10,000 increase in premiums, the pressure is going to mount on Republicans to come to the table and reopen the government while also making sure that people don't get hurt from a healthcare perspective.

And I mean, you know, the real world consequences here.

We're not talking about numbers.

This isn't about politics.

This is people who are going to have to make a really hard decision about whether to keep their health care or let it lapse and potentially face bankruptcy or pay the increased premium and just have their kids go without lunch three days a week or just not have Christmas presents under the tree this winter.

I mean, there are real consequences to these premiums spiking for middle-class families all across the country.

Yeah, I think, I mean, the magnitude of those premium increases are pretty jaw-dropping.

We just put out in California, which of course we provide more coverage than any other state just by the dairy nature and size and scope and scale of our state.

But we have very familiar familiar here on the exchange in California, what they call the Bronze Plan, which is the middle plan for folks and Anthem.

And you've got premiums that will go from $307

to $964

a month.

I mean, it's just, so it's on average, we talk about the aggregate, but people will see tripling in some cases up to 388%

and an average of 97%

of those increases.

And we expect 600,000 people to lose insurance because they can't afford it in California.

And I know we're talking 4 plus million across the United States.

So I appreciate the painting of that picture with clarity and sticking to two easy issues to understand.

Congressionally approved appropriations, Congress, the purse.

Here's where money we both approved, the legislative and executive branch where it needs to go.

And the president shouldn't unilaterally change that course, that commitment, that direction, and healthcare.

But I'm curious, if I could, just step back, Senator.

What was,

without breaking confidence, but I'm curious, the Democratic caucus, the determination last time not to move forward with a government shutdown, lessons learned, the expectation that you needed to prepare for this moment, particularly with someone, as you suggest, that was more interested in golfing before the shutdown and obviously had no interest in meeting with the leaders because he canceled that first meeting.

And then in that last meeting, just trolled those leaders in the Oval Office with a 2028 Trump hat.

He was never serious, to your point, about negotiating.

But knowing that,

what was the journey since the last time we decided to continue to allow government to stay open to the determination this time to get a little bit tougher in terms of the approach?

Yeah, you know, we have so few moments of leverage, moments where we have power as a minority, right?

Republicans, whether we like it or not, they run the White House, the House, and the Senate.

And so when they do need our votes, I mean, it's really our moral responsibility on behalf of the people we represent to stand up for things we believe in.

You know, not to, you know, be pollyannish about what we're ultimately going to get, but to stand up for a few things that'll help people.

You know, I disagreed with the decision back in the fall to vote for a budget that was essentially written only by Republicans that didn't solve any of the problems that they were in the midst of creating.

But, you know, a few things are different

that I think allows Democrats to be right now really united around using our leverage.

You know, one, you know, people see Trump, I think, more clearly now than they did back then.

His approval ratings are 10 points lower.

Two, the pain is more real now that that big, beautiful bill is passed.

Premiums are about to go up on millions of Americans.

So the pain is acute right now in a way that maybe it wasn't in March.

And then, you know, back in March, I think there were a lot of folks who were worried about his attacks on democracy, but maybe we're sort of hoping for the best case.

Now they see that we are in the middle of a totalitarian takeover if it's not arrested, if it's not stopped.

They are trying to rig the rules.

And thank goodness for you and what you're doing in California.

They are trying to create a state-run media.

They are trying to use the Department of Justice to suppress dissent and lock up their critics.

So that level of alarm is much higher.

And I just think it's not just Democrats who want us to fight and draw a line.

It's a big part of the middle of the country too.

So the demand for us to show power, I just think is a lot

more amplified today than it was back in the spring, which is also why so many people all around this country, left, middle, and center, are cheering what you're doing to show that we are not powerless against his efforts to try to rig the rules.

So where do you see?

I mean, is this, are we looking another week, two, month?

I mean, you're going to be back at this in six and a half weeks or six weeks.

Isn't there another sort of date with destiny in terms of just extending this narrative even beyond?

I know we're talking about this continuing resolution seven weeks, but that just gets us to another point where we're going to have another potential shutdown.

I mean, is this the bond markets that ultimately we're going to determine that we're going to break this chill?

Is it the stock market that ultimately is going to force everybody to come to the table?

What's your gut?

Yeah, I mean, my gut is that Republicans are already starting to sweat a little bit.

Something interesting happened just about 10 minutes ago.

So we had our lunches today.

The Republicans all huddled for lunch, Democrats all

huddled for lunch.

And the Republicans came out of their lunch with a brand new message, one that we hadn't heard before.

Their message today was, well, Democrats have this big protest coming up.

This is the No Kings rally on October 18th.

And so they want to keep the government shut down until the No Kings rally, which I'd never heard from them before.

They clearly knew that what they were saying yesterday wasn't working, and they're scrambling to come up with some new message.

And I think it's just all a sign, Governor, that they are feeling the heat because they're getting more and more calls and emails from constituents who are like, hey, what the hell are you going to do about this 75%

increase?

So, my guess, if I had to put money on it today, is that this isn't another month that Republicans come to the table sometime soon and say, listen,

help us help ourselves.

Let's get rid of these premium increases.

And listen,

that would help a lot of people and it would show for the first time all year that the Democratic Party has fight and has relevance.

Interesting.

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Let me ask you, just, you know, in terms of

you've used the word totalitarian.

We started as it relates to the oversight conversation about use the word kings, not just in relationship to the October 18 Gnome Kings rally.

I mean, I remember the old Chris Murphy, you know, that was the bipartisan, you know, working across the aisle, actually producing real results.

You know, I'm old enough to remember the most significant, at least in my lifetime, 30 plus years, Safer Communities Act, the work you did, mental health and gun safety in a bipartisan way.

But I've noticed much more, well, I don't want to say strident, but I see a Democrat who's leading the resistance that has more clarity on free speech in terms of more conviction, perhaps, and expression around it, as well as democracy, and using language that I understand that I think is very resonant.

I'm curious your own evolution in that respect.

And was there a moment that sort of hit you where you said, boy,

I'm going to dial things up a little bit?

Well, I mean, I appreciate that coming from you

because we have also watched you at a moment where this party has been desperate for leadership, bold leadership.

We've seen you step out and frankly take risks,

which is what I think this country is desperate for us to do, to show that we understand the gravity of this moment and show that we are willing to take risks on behalf of saving the democracy.

And Prop 50 is a risk, right?

Not destined to succeed,

but can and will if we put our work behind it.

So I appreciate you saying that.

Yeah, listen, I just see these guys

and I saw these guys early.

They are not Democrats, small D.

You know, inside the Republican Party, they have come to believe over the last four years that democracy is just not worth it any longer if it elects Democrats.

They have come to believe that, you know, our support for multiculturalism and civil rights and human rights and feminism is

an assault on the very idea of Americanism.

And their version of Americanism is a Christian white male-dominated America.

So they want to get rid of us at any cost.

And if that cost is the erasure or the weakening of democracy, then they're willing to live with that.

So to me, this is all a plan.

I mean, a really well thought out plan to capture the media, to use the DOJ to witch hunt, to rig the rules, to

change the facts

as an attempt to just try to suffocate the opposition so that we don't have enough room to operate.

And the last thing I'll say is that, you know, I think some people say, well, as long as there's, you know, no cancellation of elections, we're in good shape.

Well, I don't think they're canceling the elections.

I think they're just going to do what they've done in Turkey and Hungary and other countries like that, where the opposition party still exists, but they just don't have enough space to operate, or the rules are changed, like the shape of districts, so that even if the president is wildly unpopular, we can't win.

I just see these guys, and I know it sounds extreme to suggest that Republicans are actually trying to engineer an erosion or a destruction of our democracy.

And I don't think every Republican believes that.

There's still a lot of Republicans in the Senate who want to protect democracy, but

there are some real radicals inside the White House who do have plans to convert America to something different than liberal democracy.

And I just think we have to see it and understand it so that we recognize, as you are,

how loud our fight has to be.

How do we overstate or do we understate the influence of the OMB director, Russ Vote?

I mean, I think he's just, you know, one of many in that White House who's operationalizing this plan to, you know, constrict the space that the opposition has to operate.

I mean, what he's doing recently is another tried and true tactic of would-be authoritarians.

He's

pausing funding for Democratic states, and he's, you know, hoping that Democrats will essentially bend or self-censor themselves so that they get their money turned back on.

It wasn't lost on any of us in the Democratic caucus that when they canceled a whole bunch of energy projects, one of the states that was exempted was Nevada.

One of the two Democratic senators from Nevada voted for Trump's continuing resolution.

So it was a very clear signal.

If you vote with me as a Democrat, your money will continue.

If you don't vote with me, the money's turned off.

So, you know, I just think

he's playing his role, but I tend to think that it's more, you know, Stephen Miller and that crowd out of the White House that's orchestrating a lot of the day-to-day operations of

trying to undermine our democratic norms.

And those democratic norms now include the militarization of American cities.

We saw that obviously firsthand here in California, not just with the federalization of the National Guard, thousands and thousands, but 700 active duty Marines that were sent to a U.S.

city.

We said it at the time.

This is a preview of things to come.

Obviously, Washington, D.C.

has its own criteria and conditions, but clearly take shape there and now taking shape in cities large and small.

Portland

attempting to militarize those streets with a federal judge appointed by Trump who correctly

has put a pause, but that's not necessarily the case.

And you brought up Stephen Miller with what he's been able to effectuate in the city of Chicago.

Give us your sense of that trend line that's growing headline now, and where you think things may go if we're not successful in pushing back.

Well, it's incredibly dangerous, and I do think you have to put it in this broader context.

You know, at the same time that they are sending our troops into Portland and Chicago, they are also getting ready a campaign to crack down on what they term

far-left terrorist groups.

But that list may include indivisible and move on, just basic run-of-the-mill progressive activist groups may all of a sudden be targeted by the Department of Justice or by the IRS.

And so, what they are doing is using the military, using the Department of Justice, using the IRS to try to convince people that you're just better off staying on the sidelines, right?

I mean, we'd be naive to think that

troops in your your city doesn't have an impact on people's willingness to show up and protest.

We'd be naive to think that the threat of IRS action against your not-for-profit chills your interest to speak truth to power, say what you think is true about the immorality of this administration.

So

again, I think it's part of this big broader plan.

And again, it just raises the stakes on this budget fight because, yeah, I want to get people's health care saved, but I also have no moral obligation to vote for a budget that funds the destruction destruction of our democracy, that funds those operations at the Department of Defense, at the Department of Revenue, at the Internal Revenue Service.

So that's why this budget has to be, you know, not just good for our healthcare system, but good for our democracy, too.

What do you make of, you know, in that big beautiful bill, as they describe it,

the ability now for ICE to increase its ranks by upwards of 10,000 personnel, which would make it the largest domestic police force anywhere in the world.

And increasingly, it seems pretty obvious to anyone paying attention, a political domestic police force that appears not to be as committed to an oath to the Constitution, but to the oath to the president himself, at least how it's played out in my state.

What do you make of what's happening there, not just with the federalization of the guard and the militarization of American cities, but with ICE, with border patrol, masked men disproportionately out in the streets, sidewalks, parks, playgrounds, in and around churches, schools, courthouses.

You know, I'd say two things.

And again,

I think you have, better than anybody else, called out the moral consequences

of

a private police force loyal to the president and not necessarily the rule of law doing violence to our neighbors without regard on most days as to whether those neighbors have committed a crime or not.

But, you know, one,

I think it's really important to understand that this isn't popular.

And Democrats, you know, have been really reluctant to talk about anything connected to immigration.

Yeah, I think the Democratic Party should get stronger on a message of a secure border, but I also think that folks really don't like what's happening now.

And we don't appear to folks as a legitimate opposition if we're remaining silent so folks want a secure border but they also don't want ice

going after

immigrants who are you know basically playing by the rules and having committed no violent uh offenses so i i think that that's really really uh important to understand that we've got to talk about what's happening and that the people will be will be with us do you think i mean one of the things that i appreciate, many things that I appreciate about you is your willingness to do your own forensics, your own analysis on what went right, what went wrong in the last election, but you broadened it.

You wrote what I think the best, maybe the best piece, quite literally,

that I've read,

looking back at where our party is, looking at the present and arguing for a different future.

Is your sense that our party is finding its footing again now?

I mean, on the basis we could talk a little bit more, maybe unpack, maybe you can illuminate the viewers and listeners about what you argued is the challenge for our party.

But is your sense now that we are back on firmer footing than when you wrote that piece a number of months ago?

Do you feel like our party is in better shape or worse shape?

Are we finding our voice?

Is this shutdown in a perverse sense helpful in terms of just organizing that voice and a clarity of what's at stake?

All right.

Well, I'm going to turn that question back around on you, too.

But I mean, the polling would not tell you that our party is in good shape today.

I mean, we are historically unpopular.

And part of that is just, you know, people expressing their frustration about Trump's lawlessness through their indictment of the opposition that they would hope could have arrested more of it.

But yeah, he's giving us an opportunity, right?

He has been exposed as a fake populist, right?

He is simply operationalizing government to steal from poor people, cut their health care, to enrich himself.

And so that really commands us to try to figure out why we've lost so many votes amongst poor people in this country, because they're now questioning whether this guy is actually righteous, whether this guy actually is looking out for them.

But they're not ready to vote for Democrats.

And that's for a couple of reasons.

A, they think we're just as corrupt as Republicans are.

And so until we get more forceful in the way that we talk about how we would reform government if we were back in charge, like maybe a constitutional amendment to ban private money, corporate money, anonymous money from campaigns, they're just going to sort of think that we're all the same stripe.

And then two,

you know, they perceive us Democrats often to be pretty judgmental about them if they don't line up with us.

on all of our social and cultural priorities.

And so, you know, I've gotten in some hot water amongst our friends because I've said, listen, I think we should be a party who has a tentpole of unrigging our economy and unrigging our democracy.

And then we should try to let into that coalition people who might not agree with us on all of the hot button issues, even guns.

That doesn't mean I stop fighting any harder for those things.

I just think we could win a lot more elections if we were perceived as being, as I said, a little less overtly judgmental of people who don't believe in everything that

me or Gavin Newsom or Kamal Harris believes in.

Let's just open up the aperture a little bit to who we invite in, and we might find ourselves winning more elections and being able to get a lot of good stuff done for the country.

So, is it your sense that we're coming to our senses in that respect?

Or is it still so situational as you opened up about Trump and Trumpism and sort of the crisis at hand in this moment?

And that we're still sort of in this fight or flight in terms of playing defense right now before we then get back, dust off, and really talk about that positive alternative to Trump and Trumpism that is more inclusive, that broadens our appeal to more people.

Yeah, I think it's probably

the former.

I think we are right now seized with this fight.

And of course, it doesn't really matter if we correct from a policy or messaging standpoint if we don't have an election in 2026 or we don't have a free and fair election.

So it is kind of essential, at least in 2025, for us to make sure that we don't lose our democracy within this 12-month period of time.

But I think we could probably do a better job of walking and chewing gum at the same time.

I don't know, Gavin, it's just to me, you know, we became a party that kind of became addicted to incrementalism.

You know, we thought that these little adjustments on the margins of the market could, you know, make people's lives better.

I just want us to be for big ideas again, ideas that are as big as the solutions that people face.

And again, in the way that you're attacking this threat to democracy, you've kind of modeled a belief in big ideas.

And

Trump has big ideas.

They're racist, irresponsible, divisive ideas.

The Democratic Party is going to have to have some bigger ideas if we want to convince people that we know how hard their lives are.

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I couldn't agree with you more.

I mean, those talk about trend lines that have become headlines.

You've got an economy for decades that hasn't been working for folks.

And one of the areas that I admire you're so focused on is young people and this notion of loneliness and isolation and underscorings for the economic trend lines that are now finally being recognized.

The 30-year-old today living is doing worse than his parents, which is the first time in U.S.

history that's ever been the case.

And the more time I spend online, more time I spend offline,

more time I spend with my own kids,

I can appreciate

this sort of sense almost of desperation that I will never, ever afford the home I'm growing up in or even imagine even being able to pay rent, even if I have two or three roommates or be able to continue to afford the quality of life that you or my parents are enjoying.

And so I think this notion of moving away from incrementalism is important.

But I also want to unpack this notion of isolationism and this notion that increasingly people are sort of understanding and unpacking.

Dan, you've written a lot about it.

Maybe you can illuminate us to your thoughts in that respect.

No, I appreciate it

because

there's a radical change happening in America today, and it does explain a lot of our incivility and a lot of our political anger.

We've gone through really a period of great social withdrawal.

And it's not just the pandemic.

It really dates to

the moment those smartphones got dumped in our pockets.

Today, the average adult spends half as much time every week with friends and family in person than they did just 30 years ago.

The falloff in socialization has been even more severe for our kids.

They're

in some instances spending 60, 70 percent less time in in-person communion than they were just generations ago.

You know, you have to work longer hours now to be able to make ends meet, so there's less leisure time available for you.

We have an isolation and loneliness epidemic in this country.

And, you know, the Surgeon General under Biden talked about, you know, how that has health consequences.

You're more likely to have heart disease, dementia if you're spending more time alone.

But it has practical considerations for our politics.

I mean, I bet you a lot of those people who were rioting at the Capitol on January 6th were pretty lonely people that came to believe these conspiracy theories about Democrats because they were first sad about their loneliness and then they were angry about it and they wanted to take it out on somebody.

So, you know, I just think that in that founding document, it says that government is supposed to guarantee the right to pursue happiness.

And happiness is rooted in your career, but mostly in your relationships, mostly in how connected you feel to your community.

So I would love a conversation about how we kind of unwind this cycle of social withdrawal.

And I think we should start with our kids.

You and I have been raising kids in this age of smartphones.

You and I talked about it last time we saw each other in person.

I remember you having done a better job than I have,

and my kid's mom has in keeping our kids away from that technology.

But you could just start by restricting the access kids have to social media, giving them a chance at meeting each other more often, and then maybe that would spin them into healthier adults.

I just think it's a real important and unifying conversation because like right and left don't feel differently about the poison that's being handed to our kids.

They want us to step up and do something.

You know, I completely concur in terms of just the universality of the concerns and the consideration of how we can, I mean, this is about communitarianism.

It's not about political party.

It's about our shared experience, shared humanity.

And I think this explains more things in more ways on more days in terms of our politics and unpacking that is critical.

In the interest of trying to sort of unpack more issues and distill in a very short period of time, I want to unpack a little bit about your reference a moment ago that very much is in line with what we were just talking.

And you mentioned media and passing.

You obviously have tried to meet the moment with the NOPE Act, which I want to talk about in a second in relationship to what happened with Jimmy Kimmel.

But there's a lot happening with social media.

TikTok now appears to be transferring hands to American investors, a disproportionate number that have strong ties to the Trump administration.

We've seen what's happened with Paramount deal

and obviously new announcement to the new Barry Weiss, who's going to be running CBS and

just a shift now, consolidation in the hands of fewer and fewer people.

It seems like more oversight, or at least more settlements that imply more oversight, including with YouTube that's sending $22 million of a $24.5 million settlement to build a new ballroom that has not, by the way, been impacted by the government shut down the construction there.

I mean,

what's your sense of what's happening in the media landscape in this?

Well, that doesn't sound too good when you lay it out that way.

Leading question here.

Well, I mean, like, you know, this, you know, totalitarianism and monopoly go hand in hand.

You know, it's really important to, you know, somebody that's seeking to contract the space for dissent to, you know, be able to pull the levers of media control.

And it's really, really worrying that increasingly there's a really small number of people in this country who control the platforms upon which we communicate.

The algorithms really matter there.

And control the sources of news that we all consume.

You mentioned this, you know, this one company that's essentially controlled by the Ellison family.

They're very, very close to Donald Trump.

They just bought up Paramount, which owns CBS, and immediately installed Barry Weiss, a right-leaning

commentator in charge of the news.

They now are looking to buy an even bigger media company that includes CNN.

They may have control of TikTok.

I mean, this is one family now that could have CBS, CNN,

TikTok.

And you saw what happened to Kimmel when the state starts to use its regulatory power to act on small and medium-sized actors and say, if you want to keep your license or you want to ever get a merger approved, you've got to listen to us in terms of who can speak and who can't speak.

Again, this is what's been happening in Hungary over the past 20 years is that the government just starts to cut deals with very rich people.

We'll let you take ownership over this media company and

we'll let you make a lot of money off of it, but you have to tilt the coverage towards us.

And it's pretty clear and in fact pretty brazen and transparent that that's what Trump is trying to do.

So

we've got to speak up about that, but we also have to tell people that if you put Democrats in charge, we're going to do something about these media monopolies.

I think that's actually pretty popular because I think folks out there don't like the fact that the news is being controlled by a small handful of individuals and companies in this country.

So after what occurred with Jimmy Kimmel and the FCC and concerns, you introduced an actual strategy to respond to that, not just rhetoric, but actual legislative plan referred to.

And you're of an act, there's the NOPE Act.

Unpack that.

What's the N and O and P and E stand for?

Well, you know, it is important also to just remember that, you know, Kimmel's back on the air, right?

And it's another demonstration of, you know, our power.

In that case, it was commercial power

that we

used our power as consumers to say to Disney, listen, there's going to be consequences to you if you essentially engage in Trump's censorship regime.

And we can do that again through our commercial power, but we also have that same power politically.

So, you know, the NOPE Act is, you know,

is a bill about banning political prosecutions.

So

we just set up a whole new set of common sense defenses that individuals would have in court if they ever got prosecuted for free speech.

Now, it's illegal to arrest somebody just because they're protesting the government, but that hasn't stopped Trump from doing it.

I don't remember if it was Stalin or some other famous totalitarian once you know said, show me the person and I'll find you the crime.

You can dig up something somebody has done and allege that it's a crime, even though your underlying motivation is really to punish their speech.

What this bill does is just set up a number of defenses you can raise in court if you believe you're being persecuted for speech and allows you to ultimately collect attorney's fees and have repercussions against the charging agent if it turns out that you are unconstitutionally pursued for your political activity.

So, listen,

I don't have any illusions that that bill is going to pass in a Republican Congress, but it's just another way for us to raise for folks the specter of what they're doing.

So let's,

in finishing up here, I want to sort of go back to the beginning and just, you know, you made the point on multiple occasions, including the reference to how people really use their voice and express their disdain for what occurred and put a lot of pressure on Disney and Kimmel getting back on air.

In no large part, it was because of

people

exercising their free speech and pushing back.

You mentioned the No Kings rally on October 18th.

You mentioned as well Indivisible and other organizations that you've been supporting and we're grateful and you've been champion for so many of these

sort of democratic small D organizations all across this country.

Where do you see things going as we map out 2026?

I mean,

it's pretty clear Trump would have made those phone calls.

First one being to Greg Abbott said he's entitled to five seats in Texas.

And those subsequent phone calls, so you saw that poor Indiana governor who said, I had no choice.

I mean, he publicly said it out loud because he would take my money.

Just think about that.

I mean,

President said he's entitled to five seats.

And I don't think enough people paid attention to what the governor of Indiana said of why he's moving with redistricting, just under the auspices of being threatened with government money.

What

do you make of where we are and where we'll be this time next year in terms of our prospects, not only for the House Representatives, but the United States Senate?

And how

important are these organizing groups, the no kings rally, and the momentum that we need to build in terms of sharing our voice between now and then in terms of getting back into control and power?

Well, you know,

you mentioned, you know, before maybe my

over-optimism about our ability to get Republicans to do the right thing on the shutdown.

I don't know.

My feeling is that people like you and me kind of have to be absurd optimists to stick in this business for as long as we have.

But I'm optimistic about A, our ability to defend democracy and our ability to win next November.

Yeah, I think a lot of it has to do with the success of your effort and the success of other states' efforts to try to balance out the harm that they're doing in places like Texas and Indiana.

But, you know, there's this really interesting study that was done some years ago that looked at democracies that were crumbling, right?

That were being challenged by an elected leader who essentially wanted to stay in power forever.

And what they found, what the study found, is that there's kind of a magic number, a magic number of citizens that once they hit the street,

end up just putting the sand in the gears of that dissent away from the democracy.

The number is sort of 2%, 3%

of the people.

I think on October 18th, we're going to maybe see record numbers of people all around this country standing up and speaking out.

And that will, you know, cause just a little bit of concern amongst Republicans who think, well, maybe this isn't as strong a bet as I thought.

You know, maybe I am going to lose my seat if I continue to endorse this corruption.

Maybe that'll give a little bit more confidence to some corporate CEO or some leader of a school or a law firm out there to say no to the attempts at bullying.

So I just think it's still in our hands.

History tells us that when the people stand up, something magical happens, whether it's fear in the other side, courage to allies who have been sitting on the sidelines, we still have the ability to save this thing.

And again, you know, all you know, all credit to what you are doing in California, which in many ways is the center of our national effort to resist, whether it was what you did to raise issue with the deployment of federal troops, what you've done to stand up to his

uses of spending power to bully states into submission or Prop 50.

I think we'll have a big turnout on the 18th.

I think we'll continue to grow indivisible and move on, local groups.

And in the end, I think we'll be in a strong position.

Now, the Senate's hard next November, no doubt about it.

Like, if you had an outcome where we won the House and we didn't win the Senate, that wouldn't, you know, spell doom for democracy.

That would still be a good day.

But,

you know, if if his approval ratings stay down in the low 30s, mid-30s, we got a chance to

win places like

Texas,

flip a couple seats that people maybe weren't expecting in the Senate and maybe surprise folks.

Love to hear that optimism.

And it's a reminder, Justice Brandeis said it better than any of us, in a democracy, the most important office is office of citizen, this notion of active, not inert citizenship.

And we saw that the last big protest a few months back.

And I hope on October 18th, everybody is hearing Senator Murphy loud and clear the opportunity to really, you know, not just show up for ourselves, but show up for each other, show up for our founding fathers.

They didn't live and die to watch 249 years of these enduring principles of, you know, co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty, the rule of law be replaced by, as we've said, the rule of dawn.

And so I'm grateful, Senator, for all your leadership.

And I encourage everybody listening, watching.

I don't remember under what, was it a blog that you wrote yourself?

Was it published in some fancy magazine?

But

I wrote something longer.

I think it was for

I don't remember what it was.

American Prospect, I think that's where it was.

I talked about it.

Yeah, Google it.

Sort of the realignment of America and how, you know, there's a lot of folks out there who want to break out of Trump's camp, but need the Democratic Party to feel a little bit more sincere and a little bit more robust in the way that we attack concentrated power.

So hopefully I'm right.

It was a long piece and it deserved to be long.

And every word was important.

And I can't impress upon people more the importance of taking a look at it because you brought in the aperture and you really looked at our party more broadly and connected it to cultural issues, larger societal issues, not just tactical or situational issues.

And again,

I'll end as I began,

one of the brightest lights in the Democratic Party.

Guy shows up every single day online, offline.

Senator Chris Murphy, thanks for being with us.

You're my hero, man.

Thanks a lot.

Thank you, brother.

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