And, This is How Trump’s Tariffs Cost YOU Money With Anthony Scaramucci

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Speaker 6 Well, we're finally here. It's Liberation Day or is it in America? Is it Recession Day? Is it Tax Day? Is it Liquidation Day?

Speaker 6 All the punditry out and the realities, the new realities of unprecedented tariffs, unprecedented tax increases in the United States of America, certainly in peacetime, up to 23%

Speaker 6 tariffs all around the globe. Are we in a trade war? What does this mean in terms of you and your household and expenses? Are cars going to get cheaper?

Speaker 6 Or as Donald Trump says, it doesn't even matter.

Speaker 6 We're going to talk about all of those things as well: what went right, what went wrong with the Harris campaign, what is the path back for the Democratic Party.

Speaker 6 With Anthony Scaramucci, up next on this is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 6 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 6 And this is Anthony Scaramucci.

Speaker 36 Governor Newsom going for the silver fox look. Okay, this is this is Latin American dictator brown, Governor.
If you ever need

Speaker 6 it's called it's called Just for Men, Anthony. That's what that's called.

Speaker 36 Well, I was using Cuban leader black, but it looked terrible on TV, so I've lightened it up a little bit.

Speaker 6 How often do you have to do it? I don't even have the guts to try it. I'll turn orange.

Speaker 36 Well, you definitely don't want to turn orange, especially these days. That would be a bad color for both of us.

Speaker 6 Speaking of orange,

Speaker 6 I mean,

Speaker 6 we all waited for this moment.

Speaker 6 Did you predict it would be this volatile, this reckless?

Speaker 36 I knew it would be bad. I didn't, you know, the thing that you always prayed for is that he would have some people around him slow him down.
You know, if you talk to Mnuchin or

Speaker 36 you talk to Gary, Gary Cohen, former Goldman Sachs president, chief operating officer, they slow, this was the potential implementation 2018.

Speaker 36 They slowed that down. Kelly slowed it down.

Speaker 36 Mnuchin,

Speaker 36 all of those guys did not want this. And so he wasn't able to do this.
Now he has willing accomplices, Gab.

Speaker 36 How do you want me to address you, sir? Governor, Gavin, how do you want me to?

Speaker 6 Gavin works. I mean, I get, you know, walk the streets with me.

Speaker 6 me i'll get asshole i'll get everything so i'll take gavin buddy i've been called a lot worse than mooch and anthony trust me you can't you can't go into politics without getting some shit but let me i'm curious i mean it is interesting because trump 1.0 i mean obviously this fixation that he's had for decades you've known trump for quite literally decades yeah um you know on and off and obviously worked briefly for him but i mean he's he the one thing legitimately he has been consistent about uh for as a former democrat pro-choice democrat it's an interesting area of consistency it's on the issues of tariffs.

Speaker 6 So to your point, this obviously must have been on the agenda, at least internally in the first administration. But did you ever see it at this level? I mean, this is not even reciprocal tariffs.

Speaker 6 These are sort of seem random and they seem almost, I mean, it's like a, that was a strange, I mean, it's always a reality TV show, but you had to see that board yesterday.

Speaker 6 And the nature of how they came up with sort of the numerics and divide by two. I mean, that couldn't have been necessarily on the docket in the first term, was it?

Speaker 36 No,

Speaker 36 I don't think it was this level of unseriousness. I think in the first administration, it was he wanted to attack on across-the-board tariffs and he wanted to put up a

Speaker 36 border, a financial border, if you will, around the United States. Remember, he wants to wall the United States off literally and physically from the rest of the world.

Speaker 36 The Trump doctrine, and the reason why he goes back to McKinley, during President McKinley's administration, 97% of what we produced, we consumed inside the country.

Speaker 36 And so Trump's attitude is that the world has freeloaded off the U.S. and that we need to wall ourselves off literally and physically from the rest of the world.
Now,

Speaker 36 that

Speaker 36 misunderstands how actually the world works. And this is the problem we're all having.
We need somebody like you.

Speaker 36 to organize dissent and explain to people that what Trump is doing is actually catastrophic for our economy.

Speaker 36 What he's doing would take us back to the 1930s with the Smoot-Hawley Act, which steepened a recession and turned it into a Great Depression.

Speaker 36 Trump could touch off deflation, Governor Newsom. And if you touch off deflation in a society like ours, it's absolutely catastrophic.
Because remember, we're in a debt-laden society.

Speaker 36 So let me just give this example.

Speaker 36 If you have a $250,000 mortgage and an $80,000 job, in a deflationary society, your salary is going down alongside the goods and services, but your debt's not going down.

Speaker 36 You're forced to pay back the debt with dollars that are worth more than the dollars you borrowed. In an inflationary situation, you can pay back the debt with dollars that are worth less.

Speaker 36 But if the counter should happen, it's absolutely devastating for the society. And so the Fed is going to be forced now to cut rates because the Fed fears deflation

Speaker 36 way more than inflation.

Speaker 36 So what he's doing is actually historically catastrophic.

Speaker 36 He's doing something that literally, if you said, Governor, if I said to you, okay, let's get in a room, you and I, and let's dismantle the global trading system.

Speaker 36 Let's get every one of our allies sore at us. And let's give our adversaries a leg up.

Speaker 36 Let's give China an opportunity now to re-engage with Europe and become their number one trading partner. What should we do to do that in 65, 70 days? And this is what you would do.

Speaker 36 Everything that he's implemented

Speaker 36 is doing that. And his unserious cabinet, they can't defend it.
I mean, Lutnick's on TV trying to defend it, cannot defend it.

Speaker 36 I feel bad for Scott, you know, the Secretary of Treasury, Bissett. It's like blink twice, we'll get SEAL Team 60 to take you off the CN, we'll take you off the CNN show.
You know, I mean,

Speaker 36 it's embarrassing for all of of us because,

Speaker 36 okay,

Speaker 36 there are, this is the, and this is the thing with Donald Trump. There are things about him that centrists, Wall Streeters, centrists do like.
They want a stronger border.

Speaker 36 I think you've had several people on your show that have articulated that. They want some banking deregulation, some positive crypto regulation.

Speaker 36 But with Donald Trump, sir, you go to the buffet table with your tray. You can't pick the things that you want, a la carte.
He force feeds you everything.

Speaker 36 You know, he force force feeds you the meme coin. He force feeds you the rhetoric on the 51st state.
He force feeds you the nonsense about NATO and the,

Speaker 36 I mean, what the dressing down of Zelensky. What they did to Zelensky, to me, is literally one of the most un-American things that I've seen.

Speaker 36 So we're in a situation now where even Rand Paul, sir, Even Rand Paul got to the airwaves last night and said that what he's proposing is absurd.

Speaker 36 And of course, the markets are reacting with their signal, not noise, signal. They're signaling how absurd this all is.

Speaker 6 So there's so much to unpack in what you said, and I want to explore a number of the points you made. But let just go back to a fundamental point.

Speaker 6 And it goes back to just, you know, the person that is Donald Trump. He wants to be loved.
The markets matter to him.

Speaker 6 It's the one sort of objective scorecard. He's got to see this kind of volatility.
I mean, he sort of previewed a little bit of it.

Speaker 6 You've seen some of that volatility over the course of the last few months, and he pulled back on some of his assertions and some of his threats and promises.

Speaker 6 I mean, what happens, do you think, in the next few days on the basis of this reaction, global reaction, but profound impacts in terms of the market volatility?

Speaker 36 Well, he has sent out his keyboard warriors this morning to say to people, come to the table.

Speaker 36 Eric Trump is out on X or whatever they call it now saying hey come to the table and negotiate with my dad or it's going to end badly for you i've seen it my whole life you know yeah and so they're nervous you know they're sending out signals to people that okay we've obviously overstepped obviously this uh like governor i call it the anti 10 commandments it's like the evil 10 commandments he had this big tablet in his hand we had orange moses just descending from Mount Evil with the

Speaker 36 indiscernible tablet. But they now know that they've overstepped.
And so they're nervous. And they're trying to tell leaders now, come to the table, let my father declare victory.

Speaker 36 Prime Minister Carney come to the table and then he'll put out on Truth Social, I've lowered the tariffs for Canada,

Speaker 36 this sort of thing. And it's actually...

Speaker 36 It's actually embarrassing. It's embarrassing because

Speaker 36 I can't speak for the school system in California, but I would imagine sometime in the first grade, like the school system here in New York, you read the emperor has no clothes.

Speaker 36 I was seven when I first read this brilliant piece of literature.

Speaker 36 And I remember remarking to myself at age seven, well, who would be stupid enough to tell an emperor that he has clothes on when he has no clothes on? And of course, now here we are in 2025.

Speaker 36 It's 54 years after I read this beautiful piece of first grade literature. And I'm watching people in the president's court

Speaker 36 do things.

Speaker 36 They're bobbleheads, governor.

Speaker 36 They're bobbing their heads, saying yes, yes, yes, where privately they're saying no, no, no. And so

Speaker 36 I do think there would be a breach, but I want to go back to your loved thing because I think this is a 40-year idea for Trump.

Speaker 36 He mentioned it to Oprah Winfrey in the mid-80s, and he wants to implement it. And so if it causes hardship, in his

Speaker 36 perverse mind, he thinks that this is a solution for America. He thinks this is a reshoring solution for America.
He thinks this is an end of the

Speaker 36 freeloading. You know, this is what his team says on Signal.

Speaker 36 But of course, you and I know that that's not the case. And I can prove to your viewers and listeners that this is not the case.
America

Speaker 36 by integrating with the rest of the world, created a bigger market for America, more prosperity for America. Is it perfect? No.

Speaker 36 Should our political leadership have checked some of the rights that the Chinese had in the WTO as the Chinese economy grew? Yes, I accept that.

Speaker 36 Should we have checked some of the tariffs that got put on us? Certainly.

Speaker 36 But the notion that America would integrate with the rest of the world and then generally provide a security umbrella for the free world has led to incredible amounts of peace and incredible amounts of prosperity here in America.

Speaker 36 And let me just point this out to you before you ask another question. In 1982, we had approximately 5% of the world's population and 26% of the world's output.
It's the same number today.

Speaker 36 So think of the rising living standards around the world. I can prove to you, prima facie,

Speaker 36 that the policies have generally worked. We just needed to have done a better job.
We left a vacuum of advocacy.

Speaker 36 Your party, frankly, my party, my old party, We left a vacuum of advocacy for white, middle-class, blue-collar workers. And I would suggest that we got to get back to that.

Speaker 36 If you want to have the counter-narrative to the nonsense that's going on,

Speaker 36 those families, and this would be my own family, they voted for the Franklin Roosevelts, they voted for the Jack Kennedys, they voted for the Lyndon Johnsons.

Speaker 36 But it seems like we just lost our way and we left those people out of the American aspirational economy. You know, many of those people now sort sort of feel desperational.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 and I appreciate that. I think it's what led you to appreciate Trump as a Republican.
And you were out there campaigning for Jeb Bush and others. But I think you constantly.

Speaker 36 You're a Catholic. Is that right, Governor?

Speaker 6 I'm right out of the old Irish Catholic claim.

Speaker 36 Because this could be a confessional for me. I won't have to go on Saturday.
You know, I can confess all my sins. I can confess all my sins working for Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 No, but

Speaker 6 I'm going to compliment you a little bit because what you just expressed is what you also experienced.

Speaker 6 And you talk often about New Mexico when you were out there and you saw him at least talking to those folks.

Speaker 6 Not talking down to them and acknowledging them. I see you.
I care, or at least asserting that he cared.

Speaker 6 And you saw my party

Speaker 6 that seemed to be defending NAFTA, defending TPP, defending some of those trade deals, or at least struggling with them as it relates to an electoral strategy, not fully appreciating the magnitude of the displacement and the despair in the faces and the heart of so many.

Speaker 6 And so what, you know, appreciating that and appreciating there were people there yesterday with President that, you know, United Auto Workers and others that just feel like this is a, we are getting ripped off and, you know, at least this gives us a shot again.

Speaker 6 I mean, what, is there a case that you can make? Is there a case that Trump himself at this moment particularly he can defend?

Speaker 6 Or do you just think he went further than he realized he went and this is completely reckless not just taking the risk

Speaker 36 so again the case could have been made 40 or 50 years ago but it can't be realistically made today that's the problem because nafta caused a full integration of the canadian and almost a full integration of the mexican economy so so as an example uh a prime minister carney who's a personal friend of mine i worked with him at goldman 35 years ago he would tell you that auto parts are coming across the border back and forth at least six times before they get installed in the car.

Speaker 36 And you can't charge 25% tariffs each time it moves across the border. And so we've integrated the economies.
If you said to me we needed to

Speaker 36 right-size elements

Speaker 36 of the tariff system to protect American working class families. I would say resoundingly yes.

Speaker 36 If you said to me we need surgical tariffs where we need to go through the tariff system and say, okay, the Chinese are dumping this product into our market.

Speaker 36 They are subsidizing it with their government's help and they're giving an artificial price of results.

Speaker 6 We saw that, of course, with Biden. I mean, he built off Trump's targeted tariffs, and the Biden administration certainly had that.

Speaker 36 They went more delicately through the list.

Speaker 36 And this is the thing about Donald Trump that we have to acknowledge there are kernels of truth in what he's saying. It's the implementation of the policy that's flawed.

Speaker 36 But if you're telling me we have a problem at the border, Milton Friedman would have said years ago, well, if you have a welfare state and the U.S.

Speaker 36 does have one, you have to protect your border because free market forces dictate that people will cross the border.

Speaker 36 And so I think what happened is because of anti-Trump sentiment, President Biden reversed all of that through executive action.

Speaker 36 It was more of an anti-Trump statement than it was real thought-out policy. And that hurt the Democrats in 2024.
But there was a kernel of truth to what Trump was saying.

Speaker 36 It's more about the implementation and the heavy-handedness. And again, same thing with the tariffs.

Speaker 36 The president is correct that we need to bolster living standards in America for lower and middle-income people.

Speaker 36 The president is correct that there have been elements of the trade system where we've been taken advantage of.

Speaker 36 You know, the World Trade Trade Organization let China in with extraordinary emerging market latitude, extraordinary. And they never corrected it as China rose.

Speaker 36 And I'll say something, Governor, that does not reflect well on me, but I'll share it with you.

Speaker 36 At the age of 35 in 1999,

Speaker 36 the World Trade Organization, there were protests in Seattle. Do you remember these? I don't know if you would.

Speaker 6 No, I remember, of course.

Speaker 36 Okay. And so Ralph Nader was up there.
Working class families were up there. They said, please, please do not let the Chinese into the WTO.

Speaker 36 And you'll cause a hollowing out of our manufacturing. You'll ruin our middle-class aspirational jobs.
Please don't.

Speaker 36 I was a young Wall Street person at the time, and I had bought into the Wall Street narrative that this was going to lower the cost of capital deployment, lower the cost of labor, and was going to be generally good for the economy, the stock market, and generally good for people.

Speaker 36 And it was an advancement. It was progress.
But those workers were right, Governor Newsom. I got that wrong at age 29 because the aftermath of what happened 25, 26 years later is

Speaker 36 this dilemma, this systemic rise in populism. Moreover, when President Bush implemented the TARP money, he made a very big mistake, and I think he's willing to admit it today.

Speaker 36 He put a trillion into the banks. If he put $7.50 into the banks, sir, and maybe $2.50 into the lower and middle-income people, you maybe wouldn't have had the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Speaker 36 Maybe it wouldn't have morphed into the Tea Party movement. You see,

Speaker 36 there was an unfairness in the policy that created a prairie fire of populism.

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Speaker 6 Yeah, no, I mean, I think you marked two profoundly consequential moments in the the WTO.

Speaker 6 It's interesting, just even talking to members of the Clinton administration, talking former President Clinton himself about WTO and its aftermath.

Speaker 6 I think there's not only a reckoning in terms of our politics today and direct connection in that respect, but I think there's a growing recognition of the outsized consequence of the WTO.

Speaker 6 But I also appreciate your point around the Wall Street relief and this sort of Main Street, Wall Street frame after the financial crisis with, you know, and obviously the Biden, excuse me, the Obama administration inherited a lot of that and sort of maintained not totally dissimilar policies as it relates to that bailout and the consequences to the populism that we're experiencing today.

Speaker 6 Let me just back up, just talking about the challenges of today. I mean,

Speaker 6 how does, knowing Donald Trump is the way you know him, how does he get out of this?

Speaker 6 Is it just, and you know, he's got 60 countries, you got 60 leaders come in, one off, he starts negotiating BS deals that he claims credit for having, quote unquote, succeeded in level setting the playing field?

Speaker 6 Or is there going to be more sweeping across the board recalibration with the EU, as an example, or other allies?

Speaker 6 What's your over-under in terms of the next days, not just weeks?

Speaker 36 I mean, anything is possible, Governor Newsom, but I'm... And I'm generally an optimist about life, but I'm pessimistic about this.

Speaker 36 And just hear me out for a second, and I'd love to get you to react to it.

Speaker 36 We've had a bipartisan commitment to this economic geopolitical footprint.

Speaker 36 We've had a bipartisan commitment on containment, the NATO security umbrella, the free trading mechanisms around the world, America absorbing some of that because we're the richest nation.

Speaker 36 And he's ending all of that. He's ending all of that very abruptly.
And he's doing it in a way that's raising risk premium around the world.

Speaker 36 So said differently, if I was a European leader, I'd be be like, okay, whoa, it's not just Donald Trump. 50% of the people voted for him.
There's something wrong in the body politic in the U.S.

Speaker 36 now that's going to make the U.S. a little bit more arbitrary and a little bit more capricious in its decision-making.

Speaker 36 Unless you're telling me we can find a transformative post-partisan leader that can galvanize the Americans again. If I'm in Europe, I'm like, okay, I got to have other options now.

Speaker 36 And I think the market is signaling, even if Trump tomorrow says, okay, EU, here's this deal and China, here's that deal. And, oh, by the way, I wave my beautiful magic wand.

Speaker 36 Here's the new tablet coming down from Mount Stupidity. And here's what we're going to do now.

Speaker 36 I think he's upset the Apple card enough where you're now creating different sets of outcomes and different sets of decision-making from other responsible political leaders.

Speaker 36 Do you think I'm going too far in thinking that?

Speaker 36 No, I mean,

Speaker 6 I think that course was set weeks and weeks prior to the tariffs as it relates to the reordering our alliances and, you know, J.D.

Speaker 6 Vance's speech in Munich, the security conference, and talking down and past our allies and,

Speaker 6 as you said, the ambush in the oval with Zelensky and the messages that have been sent.

Speaker 6 And I can just let me just reinforce that point of view on the basis of the kind of outreach that I've directly received as governor of a state that happens to be larger than 21 state populations combined, the fifth largest economy in the world, where foreign leaders have reached directly out to California to express that anxiety and concern from a sub-national level and look to engage us directly with all the volatility and the uncertainty, again, prior to this tariff announcement coming from the White House.

Speaker 6 So I think the consequences are off the charts and profound. And it begs then this question, Anthony.

Speaker 6 Look, we watched Project 2025. I felt some of us were accused of crying wolf on it.
But this sort of shock and awe, this flood in the zone, as Bannon loves to say, he has one speeds.

Speaker 6 He puts his foot on the gas. There's no break with Trump.
Has that even surprised you to the degree that he's moved this early?

Speaker 36 That didn't. I think what has surprised me, frankly, is the willing sycophants, the willing enablers.

Speaker 36 There's usually people of conscience in the room that say, whoa, that doesn't work for me. You know, John Kelly, John Kelly fired me, Governor Newsom, on the 31st of July, 2017.

Speaker 36 We've become very close friends. And,

Speaker 36 you know, we socialize together. And my wife, Deirdre, and Karen and him hang out together.

Speaker 36 And we talk about the dilemma of working with Donald Trump.

Speaker 36 And it's just a weirdness to him. There's like an anti.

Speaker 36 There's a conflict of voice.

Speaker 36 I've been dying to ask you this question since I saw you at the night of the debate where you and I were at September together in Philadelphia, both there supporting Vice President Harris.

Speaker 36 When he attacks you,

Speaker 36 the president, President Trump, he attacks you as a keyboard-worrying bully. But then when he has to face you in person, and thank God you're a tall SOB, because I'm not as tall as you.

Speaker 36 At least you can stand off to him face-to-face.

Speaker 36 He never attacks you face to face.

Speaker 36 Oh, Gavin, you're a great guy. You know, this sort of stuff.
What do you make of that, sir? If you don't mind mind, I will just give that question for six months.

Speaker 6 Anthony, I've had, I had, for me, sort of a bookmark in history, interesting experience.

Speaker 6 I was there near the end of the Biden administration in the Oval for about 90 minutes up in the residence with President Biden and then invited back, same guy, same state, same Democrat, a few weeks later.

Speaker 6 And I think I was the first Democrat to sit down in the Oval with Donald Trump. And it was 90-plus minutes.
And they kept trying to extract us from one another.

Speaker 6 And it was because it was deeply engaging and personal. He's incredibly charismatic, as you know well.
Yeah, charming.

Speaker 36 Look,

Speaker 36 I hate to say this to people, but he's a very charming guy in that interpersonal interaction.

Speaker 6 And there's no,

Speaker 6 he doesn't want conflict. And I'll be candid with you, it surprised me on the Zelensky.
I call it an ambush.

Speaker 6 I saw that more as an ambush coming from JD Manchester and the vice president than even Trump, because it's not like Trump to do that in the overall.

Speaker 6 I was surprised because of the interpersonal, because he tends to like that rapport one-on-one.

Speaker 6 That said, others have different theories, but it's an interesting dynamic that people don't fully appreciate.

Speaker 36 But, sir, when he goes off on you on truth social with the nonsense name-calling, and then you see him like a week later or a day later in California, he acts like it didn't happen, right?

Speaker 6 Of course. No, and in fact, gets a little uncomfortable when you say, hey, you know, what happened to the new scum?

Speaker 6 He's like, okay, and he literally, that's when he's he's sort of unmoored a little bit because he doesn't want to engage in that.

Speaker 6 And so look, and I think that's the difficult part is figuring out what's real, what's not, what's performative, what's not. I mean, for him, it's about the crowds.
I mean, he even made that point.

Speaker 6 He goes, the crowd loves it. And so I'm like, okay, whatever your crowd needs.

Speaker 6 The problem is, I feel like it's, you know, I'm watching Gladiator 3, or at least the preview of Gladiator 3, with a thumbs up, thumbs down.

Speaker 6 You don't know which direction it's going to go based upon the crowd. And that, again, begs my concern now, you know, and not just concern, but consideration of a sort of reconsideration.

Speaker 6 How with this crowd in terms of the markets,

Speaker 6 you know, he dismisses Mother Nature, but the markets can't be easily dismissed. People's 401k, you're even seeing it's not just Rand Paul.

Speaker 6 There's some other Republicans that are marginally expressing concern around tariffs. You're seeing now layoffs.

Speaker 6 You're seeing announcements from these companies that were supposed to be spending trillions of dollars coming in the United States now actually

Speaker 6 saying they're not going to invest in these factories in some of these rural parts of the country.

Speaker 6 I mean, I've got to think, and I know you're sort of challenging that, that he's got to reverse more quickly than perhaps even you think. No?

Speaker 36 Yes, but I don't see

Speaker 36 how

Speaker 36 we get undamaged from this. You know, like, you know, here's the cruel admission.

Speaker 36 I knew how bad it was. I endorsed President Biden in 2020.
As you know, I helped on debate prep and tried to act as a surrogate for the Vice President Harris in 2024.

Speaker 6 You didn't try to act. You were a surrogate and an incredibly effective one.

Speaker 36 This is an existential crisis, sir. This is a post-partisan thing.

Speaker 36 My message to your party is open the door, expand the tent. Remember what Lyndon Johnson said? There you go.
Let's get all the elephants in the tent pissing out.

Speaker 36 Let's not have elephants outside the tent pissing in.

Speaker 36 Make it a pro-democracy movement. Make it a pro-America movement.
Make it a post-partisan transformation so that we can beat the current Whig Party, which the Whig Party is the MAGA party.

Speaker 36 It's at a step with America. They can beat us if we are dissembling.
They can beat us if we're internecutally fighting with each other.

Speaker 36 But if we expand the tent, and some of your friends on the liberal side don't like me because because I was with Trump. I understand that.
But hold your nose.

Speaker 6 Okay. Hold your nose.
You don't like me because

Speaker 6 I shook his hand at the tarmac. Yes.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 return his phone calls. I mean, which,

Speaker 6 you know, that's a deeper conversation. And so I appreciate your friends.

Speaker 36 I applaud you. Look, I don't like Steve.
Okay.

Speaker 36 You know, Bannon, I think, is a national disgrace. I'll just say that.
Thank God he's so ugly, frankly. Otherwise, he could be like a more powerful figure.
I think that was the good Lord helping us.

Speaker 36 But I'm just saying to you, I admire you having a conversation with him. Charlie, I know forever.
I campaigned with Charlie in Pennsylvania with Trump.

Speaker 36 He's a formidable young man. I think he's intellectually misguided, but I think it's important for you to speak with him.

Speaker 36 And the fact that your base or your coalition on the Democratic side would lambaste you for that, they are making a mistake.

Speaker 36 If If Churchill could hang with Attlee to beat Hitler, okay, and I'm not comparing Trump to Hitler. I'm just saying we have an existential crisis going on.
He is going down Project 2025.

Speaker 36 He wants to weaken the legislative branch. He wants to disgrace the media, weaken it.
He wants to weaken the judicial branch. He's going after our law firms in a way that I don't fully understand.

Speaker 32 By the way,

Speaker 6 and the law firms are quickly capitulating.

Speaker 6 Why Scottish people?

Speaker 36 He's going after our law firms in a way that even they don't understand the long-term ramifications of it. There you go.

Speaker 36 And so, guys, let's stop fighting with each other. Okay.
We love our country. We love our system.

Speaker 36 We like the checks and balances, the decentralized nature of the country that have allowed our families, the Newsome family, the Scaramucci family, to rise, okay, from modest beginnings, whether they were in Ireland or they were in Italy.

Speaker 36 We came here for this great opportunity. We don't want authoritarianism to spoil it.
He wants that.

Speaker 36 Okay, if you don't think he wants that, you're not paying close enough attention and you're not going down the list.

Speaker 36 And somebody like you, I applaud you for bringing me on so that we can discuss this.

Speaker 36 I admire you for bringing these other guys on that I may disagree with, but I admire you for it because open the tent. Let's get the people in the tent.

Speaker 36 There's more of us that love the country, care about the country. I may not agree with you on certain policies, so what?

Speaker 36 We care and believe in the system together. And I think that's the resonating message that you're going for.
And I applaud you for it.

Speaker 6 No, and I appreciate that. And I hope our party's listening to that because this notion, I mean, you know, this is about addition, not subtraction.
We can't afford to lose any more folks.

Speaker 6 And I think the cornerstone of this conversation is the folks we are losing is the working class.

Speaker 40 This is the story of the one.

Speaker 41 As head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on.

Speaker 40 That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the HVAC is humming, and his facility shines.

Speaker 40 With Granger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces, plus 24-7 customer support, his venue never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by.

Speaker 40 Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 12 A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers.

Speaker 13 But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught.

Speaker 16 The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

Speaker 17 So why did it take so long to catch him?

Speaker 21 I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer.

Speaker 22 The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam.

Speaker 25 Available now.

Speaker 27 Listen for free on the the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 42 All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie.

Speaker 46 For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

Speaker 50 I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her. We know.

Speaker 43 A story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national TV.

Speaker 53 Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

Speaker 46 My name is Maggie Freeling.

Speaker 48 I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

Speaker 34 I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said.

Speaker 58 They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.

Speaker 59 They made me say that I poured gas on her.

Speaker 39 From Lava for Good, this is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

Speaker 3 America, y'all better work the hell up. Bad things happens to good people in small towns.

Speaker 55 Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 49 And to binge the entire season ad-free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 38 Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

Speaker 62 Think again.

Speaker 38 More Americans listen to podcasts than ad-supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

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Speaker 63 Think iHeart.

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Speaker 64 Atlanta is a spirit. It's not just a city.

Speaker 65 I didn't really have an interest in being on air. I kind of was up there to just try and infiltrate the building.

Speaker 64 It's where Kronk was born in a club in the West End.

Speaker 2 Four World Star.

Speaker 66 It was 559.

Speaker 64 Where a tiny bar birthed a generation of rap stars. Where preachers go viral and students at the HBCU turned heartbreak into resurrection.

Speaker 65 How do you get people to believe in something that's dead?

Speaker 64 Where dreamers brought Hollywood to the South and hustlers bring their visions to create black wealth.

Speaker 34 Nobody's rushing into relationships with you.

Speaker 3 Where are you from?

Speaker 57 They want to look you in the eye.

Speaker 64 Where the future is nostalgia.

Speaker 63 Dr. McChat GPT.

Speaker 67 She like, you really the first lady to have a gangster girls take in Atlanta, Georgia. Like, that's what separates you from a lot of people.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, oh, what? You are.

Speaker 64 Atlanta doesn't wait for permission. It builds its own spotlight.

Speaker 50 I'm Big Rude.

Speaker 64 Let us guide you through the stories behind Atlanta's most iconic moments. Listen to Atlanta is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 6 Again, I keep going back to your story that was so resonant with you, at least as you continued to share it over the course of the years of being there on the campaign trail with Donald Trump and giving voice to these folks.

Speaker 6 And Bernie Sanders, in some respects, does as well. There's sort of populism on both sides

Speaker 6 of the aisle.

Speaker 6 But our party, for whatever reason, hasn't been able to connect in that respect. And to that point,

Speaker 6 I want to ask you this. Why? Because I thought, and my, not just think, I have the core belief that Joe Biden in his four years as president was one of the most pro-worker presidents in my lifetime.

Speaker 6 He had an industrial policy that was worker-centered. I mean, hell even walked the picket line, the IRA, the Chips and Science Act,

Speaker 6 the bipartisan bills. I mean, there were over 400 bipartisan bills, but infrastructure.

Speaker 6 The fact we saw actual investments being made, again, supporting workers, supporting the heartland, supporting the folks, quote unquote, that we lost in this election.

Speaker 6 Did I read that wrong? You were a supporter of Biden. I thought we were making that point,

Speaker 6 but it seems to have been lost or at least wasn't inherited by Harris.

Speaker 36 I don't think you're reading that wrong, but what I think we have to acknowledge, unfortunately, is that the presidency itself, to quote Theodore Roosevelt, is a bully pulpit.

Speaker 36 And so one of the jobs of the president, he or she, is to be the great salesman or saleswoman for the country. And the president put in the CHIPS Act, very successful.

Speaker 36 The Inflation Reduction Act, which had all that embedded infrastructure, very successful. There was a lot of things that he did that were pro-worker and pro-union, very successful.

Speaker 36 But unfortunately, the president was struggling verbally by the middle of his term, and he was no longer able to passionately advocate for that.

Speaker 36 The 65-year-old Joe Biden, if I'm just being brutally honest, would have slayed Donald Trump, stayed in the race, been able to make that argument and built on that legislative agenda.

Speaker 36 Now, he made that fatal Shakespearean mistake. He should have said in September of 23, here are the 15, 20 things that I've done that have very benefited the economy.
Economy's on the uptick.

Speaker 36 Inflation is on the downtick.

Speaker 36 I heard the message. I got the message from the absenteeism.
of us, meaning normal Democrats, absenteeism. You know, I've got the Bernie Sanders-Trump message.

Speaker 36 This is what I'm doing with policy to fill the space, but I'm too old for the job. And so it's September 2023.
I'm going to open up the primary. Okay,

Speaker 36 not having a Democratic New Hampshire primary in 2024.

Speaker 36 Again, if I'm being brutally honest or it's shameful because you're attacking Trump for his anti-democracy stance.

Speaker 36 But then you're saying, well, we're not going to have a primary. Well, you know what? Even Jimmy Carter had that primary against Teddy Kennedy.

Speaker 36 And

Speaker 36 I think it's a mistake. And so I don't want to go back and re-litigate the whole thing.
I respect the Biden family. I'm not trying to do that, but I'm saying going forward,

Speaker 36 you guys got to get it together. And you got to coalesce around a national figure that can offer the dissent, that can offer the opposition.
Now, he's blown.

Speaker 36 I'm looking over the camera here to CNBC. He's blown the doors off the global economy.
He's blown the doors off the stock market. We're plus 50% now, greater likelihood to have a recession.

Speaker 36 The polymarket's saying four rate cuts, sir. So that's a first quarter of 26 recession.

Speaker 36 And so get it together. Beat these guys in the midterms, get it together, and put up a candidate

Speaker 36 to box these guys out in 28 so that the situation doesn't get worse.

Speaker 6 And Anthony, let me ask you a question.

Speaker 6 I mean, it's tactical, and I want to talk a little bit about your perspective on Harris and the outcome, because I think you were like me, that we felt more confident than certainly the outcome.

Speaker 6 But in terms of the guy or gal on the white horse to come save today, I know, you know, parties tend to focus so much on that.

Speaker 6 And my party, Democratic Party, seems disproportionately always focused on the person on the white horse to save us. Seems to me over the years,

Speaker 6 the Republican Party has been a little bit more structurally focused on school boards and focusing on legislative races in states, large and small. A bottom-up frame, not necessarily a topic.

Speaker 36 Operation Red Map, sir.

Speaker 36 You know the coinage of that term, right?

Speaker 36 They said, okay, we got to get into those state legislatures. They'll help us gerrymander these districts.

Speaker 36 And we'll, even though we're a minority party in terms of registrations, let's organize and we'll beat these guys by using the tyranny of the minority.

Speaker 36 The founders were worried about the tyranny of the majority, but the Republicans organized and asserted themselves using the tyranny of the minority.

Speaker 36 That's a fascinating point that you're bringing up.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and so it's interesting. For me, it's both and.
And one of the things that

Speaker 6 I caution my party about is if we're too fixated on a personality, then we're missing the opportunity to sort of reimagine our party because there's bigger trend lines here that sort of predate predate COVID and even Trump as it relates to starting to lose this multi-ethnic young men in particular

Speaker 6 across the spectrum. Some of that was arrested because of COVID and Trump.
But that trend line is now a big headline. And I'm curious, you know.

Speaker 6 your sort of reflection on that, but also reflection on where Harris may have struggled. Was it just the 107 days? Was it the lack of an open primary?

Speaker 6 Was it the fact she didn't distinguish herself enough and separate herself enough from an incumbent? Was it the issue of incumbency? Was it inflation? Was it interest rates? Was it immigration?

Speaker 6 Was it wokeism broadly defined? Have you landed on any theory of the case of what the hell happened in that election?

Speaker 36 So let me give you three things. Some of them are going to be controversial for your party.
And so, you know, you're probably going to get some negative press me saying this on your air.

Speaker 36 And I apologize to you in advance, but I hope the people listening will be open-minded because I want you to win. You have to slay this

Speaker 36 MAGA party. This is no longer the Republican Party I lived in, sir.
This has been decapitated. Hostile takeover, third-party insurgency

Speaker 36 has changed this into a Frankenstein monster, a Frankenstein monster of anti-democracy. So we have to beat them.
So if I would say, let's

Speaker 36 leave off the table the open primary. It didn't happen.
I think we would have liked to have seen that starting in September of 23. And that would have built up a case case and somebody would have

Speaker 36 got to the top of the packing order. That would have fortified that candidate.
But in the 107 days, I'll just make three very close observations.

Speaker 36 Number one, the vice president is a very competent, very capable leader, but she was not a great risk taker in that moment. Unfortunately, to rise to the presidency now, it requires exogenous risk.

Speaker 36 If you've got a group of handlers around, you say, don't go on Rogan, don't go on this person, person, don't go on that person.

Speaker 36 Fox News one time, not 25 times. If I were her, I would have said, hey, every morning I'm going to be on Fox News.

Speaker 36 I'm going to eventually chum up to those anchors that hate me, and I'm going to get some messaging out there where people will see that I'm not the demon that they're trying to present me as.

Speaker 36 You see what I mean? I would have said, hey, Fox News, I want to be on every day. You know, these podcasts that people are excoriating me, these alpha bro podcasts, at least once or twice a week.

Speaker 36 Okay, so she was not a risk taker. That's number one.

Speaker 36 Number two, Robert Caro, in his books on Lyndon Johnson, which I think are some of the best biography ever written, he describes Humphrey's situation with Johnson. He didn't break from Johnson.

Speaker 36 Johnson comes out of the race in 68.

Speaker 36 Humphrey waits till October 1st to break from Johnson. He's not even willing to do with any such a gentleman.
Johnson brings him into the Oval Office and says, you got to break from me.

Speaker 36 You want to blankety blank on me on the Vietnam War, blankety blank on this, blankety blank on that. You got to do it.

Speaker 36 And so he starts that process in October. It's too late.

Speaker 36 And unfortunately, the vice president's respect for Joe Biden, that infamous line that she says on the view, I can't think of anything I would have done differently, is harmful to her because we're in an anti-incumbency moment and she needed to do what Johnson suggested to Humphrey.

Speaker 36 But in Humphrey's case, it was too late, sir. The polls were closing.
He was catching Nixon when he made that break, but it was too late. And then the third thing,

Speaker 36 and I know this is really going to drive everybody crazy. So you have a fire extinguisher behind you in case your hair sets on fire because the third thing is really bad.

Speaker 6 You're okay?

Speaker 6 It's okay. I just want to make sure you're in, like,

Speaker 36 you're in a flame-retardant vest there.

Speaker 6 Let's do it. Let's hear it.

Speaker 36 The third thing is how on God's earth do you let Bobby and Elon out of the party?

Speaker 36 How do you guys do that? Interesting.

Speaker 6 I wasn't expecting that.

Speaker 36 I'm sorry? Interesting.

Speaker 6 I wasn't expecting you to say that. Okay, but how do you guys do that?

Speaker 36 Okay, Bobby is a Kennedy.

Speaker 36 Whole family's tied to the party.

Speaker 36 He actually wants to stay in the party. And I know this because he endorsed the back of my Bitcoin book.
Okay. And I know Bobby forever from New York.
How do you let Bobby out of the party? Okay.

Speaker 36 And even if you don't like Bobby or you think he's a kook with the vaccines,

Speaker 36 you get, you open the tent, keep him in the party because he's got that bro connectivity that costs you a few points where you don't want them.

Speaker 36 And Elon, I don't care what the UAW is saying or whoever told, whoever told Biden to disinvite Elon

Speaker 36 from the electric vehicle summit, I don't know who it was, but President Biden said, look, man, I'm sorry. The guy's the richest guy in the country.

Speaker 36 He's got a $44 billion bullhorn and he's coming to the party.

Speaker 6 He also created the space. You can't, how do you, how the hell do you have an electric vehicle?

Speaker 36 You don't have to sit next to the guy and you may not like him because he doesn't have a union shop, but he's our guy and we got to, we got to keep him in the party. And so those two guys.

Speaker 36 They hurt you in Pennsylvania. Elon hurts you in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 36 He hurts you in the Twitterverse or whatever you want to call it with the toxic algorithm. And Bobby hurts you.
And I'm just submitting, again, this is the indictment of your party.

Speaker 36 If I could be bold enough to say this to you respectfully.

Speaker 6 Sure.

Speaker 36 Open the tent. Hold your nose.
If somebody like me wants to help you, invite me in. I will try to help you.
Get those guys back in the party. I know you want to cancel them now.

Speaker 36 You want to blow up Tesla vehicles and so on and so forth. Get Elon back.
Okay, calm down. Calm down.
He's shooting rockets into space.

Speaker 36 He's got an environmentally friendly vehicle that he's made, which you guys used to buy in droves. Let's calm him down.
Let's disengage him from where he is right now. Get him back to neutral.

Speaker 36 Because those three things hurt Harris. No risk-taking, no break from Humphrey.
And how the hell do you let Bobby and Elon out of that party?

Speaker 6 It's interesting. And the fact that you attach...
I mean, the first two, I certainly appreciate, but it's interesting. You thought it was that determinative.

Speaker 6 These two individuals, these brands, and what they represent historically and iconically, both interestingly, two people that are best known for their environmental stewardship.

Speaker 36 They were Democrats.

Speaker 6 For decades.

Speaker 36 I thought Governor Newsent, they were Democrats.

Speaker 6 By the way, I can't tell you how many events I had with both of them in San Francisco as mayor of the city, talking about environmental stewardship, climate change, and issues related to low-carbon green growth and electric vehicle transitions.

Speaker 36 What he did in Lancaster County, which was Amish, was, you know, to quote him because he says he's on the spectrum, okay? It was on the spectrum beautiful. He got them all in vans.

Speaker 36 He told them that the unpasteurized milk that they were pumping out of their dairy farms was going to be destroyed. It was misinformation.
That was, you know,

Speaker 36 he gets a

Speaker 36 red card for that. He says that Biden's going to come after them with that.
And then he gets them in a van because they can only take the horse and buggy unless they're not driving.

Speaker 36 And he drives them over to the voting. And there's 99,000 of them vote for Trump.

Speaker 36 And I'm telling you, this is a game of inches. You know this.
I know this. I've worked on six presidential campaigns in the last 24 years.
It is a game of inches. It's a game of risk-taking.

Speaker 36 It's a game of calculated risk-taking. But when you got guys on your team that you may not like, Don't be so righteous.
Bring them into the tent.

Speaker 36 You know, I was told that some of the campaign guys wanted me on the campaign plane, and there were hardcore lefties that were like NFW with that guy. He wants work for Donald Trump.

Speaker 36 Guys, give that up. Release anger and let's study the existential threat and work together.

Speaker 40 This is the story of the one.

Speaker 41 As head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on.

Speaker 40 That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the HVAC is humming, humming, and his facility shines.

Speaker 40 With Granger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces, plus 24-7 customer support, his venue never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by.

Speaker 40 Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Speaker 12 A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers.

Speaker 13 But it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught.

Speaker 16 The answers were there, hidden in plain sight.

Speaker 17 So why did it take so long to catch him?

Speaker 22 I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam.

Speaker 25 Available now.

Speaker 27 Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 42 All I know is what I've been told, and that's a half-truth is a whole lie.

Speaker 46 For almost a decade, the murder of an 18-year-old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

Speaker 50 I'm telling you, we know Quincy Hilda. We know.

Speaker 43 A story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national TV.

Speaker 53 Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

Speaker 46 My name is Maggie Freeling.

Speaker 45 I'm a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

Speaker 34 I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y'all said.

Speaker 58 They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her.

Speaker 59 They made me say that I poured gas on her.

Speaker 39 From Lava for Good, this is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

Speaker 3 America, y'all better wake the hell up. Bad things happen

Speaker 3 to good people in small towns.

Speaker 55 Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 49 And to binge the entire season at free, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 38 Run a business and not thinking about radio? Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio on iHeart today than they were 20 years ago.

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Speaker 6 Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro, host of the hit podcast, Family Secrets.

Speaker 66 We were in the car, like a Rolling Stone came on, and he said, there's a line in there about your mother.

Speaker 6 And I said, what?

Speaker 66 What I would do if I didn't feel like I was being accepted is choose an identity that other people can't have.

Speaker 29 I knew something had happened to me in the middle of the night, but I couldn't hold on to what had happened.

Speaker 68 These are just a few of the moving and important stories I'll be holding space for on my upcoming 13th season of Family Secrets.

Speaker 68 Whether you've been on this journey with me from season one or just joining the Family Secrets family, we're so happy to have you with us.

Speaker 68 I'll dive deep into the incredible power of secrets, the ones that shape our identities, test our relationships, and ultimately reveal who we truly are.

Speaker 3 Listen to Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 6 And that disappoints me to hear you say that, but it doesn't shock me.

Speaker 6 I mean, and it disappoints me because I saw how hard you worked for Biden and then how hard and sincerely you worked for Harris and how you've been a pretty consistent and vocal opponent of Donald Trump.

Speaker 6 And with your insight.

Speaker 36 This is not, it's not even Republicanism, sir. It is a perverse form

Speaker 36 of

Speaker 36 populism. And I'm going to give you a new word.
Okay. And I didn't know the definition of this word, but I know it now.
Do you know what the word autarky means? A-U-T-A-R-K-Y.

Speaker 36 Do you know what that means?

Speaker 6 You got me. You stumped me.
What is it?

Speaker 36 Okay. So I didn't know what it meant either.
Okay. Someone had to explain it to me.
A-U-T-A-R-K-Y. It means an autonomous economic system.

Speaker 36 So Trump wants to create an American autarky. He wants to wall us off literally and physically from the rest of the world.
He wants to disengage America.

Speaker 36 It would be as if Ewell or Charles Lindbergh beat Franklin Roosevelt and created the America First Movement in the 1930s. This is what this guy wants to do.

Speaker 36 Okay, and I'm telling you, this is an existential threat to our children and our grandchildren. Put down the swords.
Let's work together.

Speaker 36 Let's figure out how AOC and Bernie can build this coalition alongside of whatever you're representing, and frankly, alongside of whatever Christie, myself, and Kissinger and Cheney are representing.

Speaker 36 And let's

Speaker 36 lock forces. Remember, the Whigs got destroyed by a new party called the Republicans.
They got destroyed by that party because they created a new party in 1856.

Speaker 36 They went after the abolitionists that were Democrats, and they went after the Whigs that wanted abolition.

Speaker 36 And they created this new party, and they got a guy named Abraham Lincoln elected, the first Republican president. The new Whig Party is the MAGA party, which has the Republican name in name only.

Speaker 36 They're the true rhinos, Governor Newsom. They're MAGA Republicans in name only.

Speaker 36 Let's team up and let's build a coalition that is a plurality, a majority, to restore confidence in America globally, to restore confidence in America economically. And then let's,

Speaker 36 once we look at the burning of the House, let's fix parts of the House with maybe some constitutional amendments, maybe some policies or laws that will benefit all of us and make us safer in sort of a new American social contract.

Speaker 6 Well, you're not going to get an argument from me. And

Speaker 6 I'm not that old, but I'm old enough to remember that that's that's the democratic party you're referencing that that built the middle class that that gave us the weekends that uh gave us medicaid gave us medicare how about the gi bill sir thank you can go on and on and on transformed everything that was a democrat idea

Speaker 36 and the gi bill took jewish tailors from the lower east side and turned their children into doctors it took italian construction workers and turned their sons and daughters into accountants, lawyers, or doctors.

Speaker 36 We had an ethnic middle class movement driven mostly by Democrat policy in the post-World War II era that gave opportunity to people that didn't have it in the old country and didn't, frankly, have it in America prior to that.

Speaker 36 That's the idealism of your party. That's the Jack Kennedy vision of your party.

Speaker 6 Amen. Look, let me ask you just

Speaker 6 a couple tactical points. And appreciate the larger tent framework.
I think this party needs a vision. It needs an economic vision.

Speaker 6 I think if you're going to talk about Kennedy,

Speaker 6 he was the last president to bring us on a journey together. We saw ourselves on that journey.

Speaker 6 And I think that's a big part of also what's missing.

Speaker 6 What's the positive alternative vision that can enliven and excite people and people feel included at a time of such division and fear and anxiety?

Speaker 6 But there's also the fear and anxiety and division that comes from the information superiority on the other side as well.

Speaker 6 The weaponization of grievance, the ability surround sound to dominate the narrative, to flood the zone in terms of communication.

Speaker 6 You've got sort of a gender bias, I would argue, algorithms that skew as well online. You got 14 of the top 15 cable shows are all Republican shows.
Podcasts are dominated, as you say.

Speaker 6 You know, it's not just that manosphere, the bro culture, but sort of dominated by more moderate to conservative to ultra-conservative voices.

Speaker 6 What do you make of that landscape? And what's if you were going to just observe as a participant, you've got two podcasts, successful podcasts. You're out there.

Speaker 6 You've been in the media dominating for decades back to your CNBC days. I remember a few decades ago.
I mean, what do you make of this environment? And what do you make of,

Speaker 6 how did we begin to sort of reconcile with that? And how do we sort of address the reckoning that is that asymmetry?

Speaker 36 Well, I mean, it's such a great question on so many levels and so many different layers, but I'll just add one thing to it.

Speaker 36 While the conservatives are dominating podcasting, and let's be honest, they are dominating cable news mostly through Fox.

Speaker 36 They say the corrupt mainstream media is against us. But in the meantime,

Speaker 36 the media, it's almost like the typewriter business, right? The big media is dying.

Speaker 36 And the reason why I applaud you starting this podcast is you're going to reach a lot of people because they can download you on their phone. They can go for a walk.
They can hear what you're saying.

Speaker 36 And they'll say, okay, I like that one. And then they forward it to five of their friends.
It's like that old shampoo commercial. And so what I would say to the Democrats, start over.

Speaker 36 Okay, be the engineers. And you remember that movie,

Speaker 36 Brian Grazer, Ron Howard, Apollo 13, Tom Hanks plays Jim Lovell. Be the engineers that go into the room and say, here's the tools on the table.
We have to reinvent ourselves.

Speaker 36 Forget the mainstream media. Forget the old totems.
Let's be engineers. Let's be scientific, marketing engineers, media engineers.
How would we reinvent ourselves today? And what will we do?

Speaker 36 What podcasts would we have? What business podcasts would we have?

Speaker 36 What messaging do we want out there?

Speaker 36 How do we stop attacking each other? The Republicans have done a very good job of not attacking each other.

Speaker 36 I find it curious that Bannon goes after Musk. Okay, because I know Bannon well.
I worked with Bannon on the 2016 campaign.

Speaker 36 He's going after Musk for many different reasons, but he knows that Musk is not pure MAGA. He knows this.
Okay. He knows Musk is reacting to what happened to him in the world of the blue world.

Speaker 36 He moved into the red world or the dark MAGA world, whatever he calls it, because of what happened to him in the blue world. So get to the table like the engineers on Apollo Apollo 13.

Speaker 36 Let's start from scratch. Let's have a summit.
You call the summit. I'll be there.
And let's start a laboratory of ideas to beat this back because the average American is kind.

Speaker 36 The average American does not want to play the victim. The average American is aspirational.
And the average American believes in lifting the boats of others.

Speaker 36 You know, the Marshall Law, the Marshall Plan, excuse me, passed because the average American looked at the landscape of the world and said, the world needs this.

Speaker 36 And if it's good for the world, it's going to be good for us. And you know, Governor Newsome, you're at your best when you're helping other people.
Americans know this.

Speaker 36 Americans get their best feeling on the side of giving. Donald Trump has set up an America.
And I'm going to give you these two allegories.

Speaker 36 You have one blue-collar family where the young man in the blue-collar family rises to great success and he pays for some tuitions, Governor Newsham. He buys a car.

Speaker 36 He helps people with medical expenses because he's the one rich person in the otherwise blue-collar family.

Speaker 36 Imagine the second family where the same thing happens, but the man or the woman builds this beautiful swimming pool and this great mansion and then they charge their family members to come into the swimming pool.

Speaker 36 Hey, Gav, you want to come to my swimming pool? It's 25 bucks.

Speaker 36 Which family is going to do better? Which family? Yeah. Okay.
And

Speaker 36 the Democrats know this in their bone marrow. Get back to the table.
This is what we represent. This is the party that built the United Nations.

Speaker 36 This is the party that laid the framework at Bretton Woods for the IMF and the World Bank. Okay.
And by the way, globalism, I maintain, just has bad marketing.

Speaker 36 Okay, because the globalism has led to rising living standards here in the United States, elsewhere,

Speaker 36 better health standards, less pestilence.

Speaker 36 It has actually worked. We just got really bad marketing people involved with this.
Get back to the table

Speaker 36 and let's brush up on this. And I think the counter narrative would blow the doors off these people.
They are in the minority, by the way.

Speaker 6 Final question, just because I'm curious. I mean, when the dust settles on Trump,

Speaker 6 Trumpism

Speaker 6 then is top of mind. And what's top of mind for a lot of folks out there that are whispering is what's J.D.
Vance up to? You know, you talk about Elon Musk.

Speaker 6 You can talk about others that really supported his nomination for vice president, members of Trump's own family, Peter Tealtypes, and others. You've got Bannon out there

Speaker 6 either performatively or very

Speaker 6 seriously making the case, 2028, Donald Trump extending term

Speaker 6 or it's Vance, and then he'll step aside and will continue MAGA for another four years. I mean, what do you make of the 2028 third term? What do you make of J.D.
Vance?

Speaker 6 How serious and concerned are you about J.D. Vance and what he represents and the people that are his closest confidants and allies?

Speaker 36 Well, I mean, so, and you know from California, these guys are Curtis-Jarvin, post-democracy sort of people. They believe in a monarchial structure.
That would be Thiel and Musk, and J.D.

Speaker 36 Vance is an acolyte of that, which is why they put him in there. It's interesting.
I really feel Trump made that decision distracted by a bullet that whizzed by his ear.

Speaker 36 He had only had 72 hours to compose himself prior to the convention. And I think he made that decision.
I don't think he likes Vance. He's been pretty clear when he says, Is he my successor?

Speaker 36 He says, No. He slammed Vance after the Margaret Brennan Sunday morning show where Vance said, We're going to pardon the nonviolent J Sixers.
Trump got pissed at him and

Speaker 36 pardoned everybody. So you remember that scene in Fargo with the wood chipper? Vance is going in the Donald Trump wood chipper.
It's just a matter of time because he's too close to power.

Speaker 36 Trump doesn't like anybody near his spotlight, as you know. And so he'll do to Vance what he did to Pence.
So I'm not as concerned about

Speaker 36 Vance as other people. The third term thing, I do believe people should take seriously.
He's 82 when he aspires to that third term. That's good for America that he's that old.

Speaker 36 But I think you have to take that seriously.

Speaker 36 And you have to take seriously that the stuff that he's doing to weaken America, you know, I'm in the category that you'd have to have at least a 5% probability that he tries to call off an election.

Speaker 36 Other people will find that incredulous, but I think you got to get it out there because there's a law of reflexivity, Gavin.

Speaker 36 If you get that out there, people will start socializing it and then they'll plan themselves to attack that. If I talk to somebody and say, well, that's never going to happen.

Speaker 36 Well, then you don't know Donald Trump. So many things have happened in the last 10 years that I literally looked right down the barrel of a camera and said, that's never going to happen.

Speaker 36 And then two months later, it happens. So I've got 5%.
He's going for the third term. Okay.

Speaker 36 And I've got, you know, some percentage that he could not even have, try to pretend that he can't have an election.

Speaker 36 I do think the country's strong enough to stop that, but I have to throw that out there. But I do think Vance goes into the whipcher.
But by the way, he's unpopular. He looks terrible.

Speaker 36 And if he wants to out Trump Trump, shave your beard, buddy, because the beard looks terrible and Trump doesn't like the beard.

Speaker 36 And I'm just letting you know, you're not, you know, going to Greenland like you did and going to Space Force, you really look like a dummy. So I'm not worried about him.

Speaker 36 What I'm worried about is that younger movement. I am worried about the Charlie Kirks.

Speaker 32 I am worried about the

Speaker 36 podcasters that are out there that are strong, vigorous guys and girls that are incredibly smart. And you guys need a counterdote to that.

Speaker 32 And so we should work on that.

Speaker 6 No, that's why that's one of the reasons. I mean, that's precisely why I'm trying to invite these folks in.
So we start to understand how potent and powerful they've increasingly become.

Speaker 6 Final, final, over-under.

Speaker 36 Musk is gone in two months uh uh rubio two months what i mean what's what's your over-under on some of these i mean key players around no because remember they have to own the libs right so walsh can get on signal he's texting jeff goldberg like war plans and then it turns out he's using gmail for all of the other stuff so you know they're upset with hillary clinton for some reason but then they're doing worse than with me did and so he can't fire walsh because he can't wals because he can't give a liberal a scalp.

Speaker 36 You know, we got to own the libs. Remember, he is the Napoleon of the culture war, Donald Trump.
Okay, so you guys have to find Wellington, but he's the Napoleon.

Speaker 36 So we can't, you know, we got to own the libs first before we do anything else, right?

Speaker 36 We've got to run the ads on the transgender athletics, even though it's a small group of people to trigger everybody, right? So that guy's not getting fired, right?

Speaker 36 So what Trump is

Speaker 36 pushing and what you have to be worried about, in my opinion, is that persistent culture. You guys seem to be one step behind him in every culture war.

Speaker 36 You know, I mean, Bill's going to have dinner with him. Okay.
Bill's on your team, by the way. Don't let Bill go the way of Elon Musk and Bob.

Speaker 6 You're talking Bill Maher.

Speaker 36 Yeah, Bill Maher. Yeah.
Don't let him go the way of Elon Musk and Bob. Give him, when you're done with me podcasting, pick up the phone, call Bill.
Say, dude, let's go have lunch. Calm down.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 36 I'm sure you had Dece Wellington in the White House because because Trump eats that every night for dinner.

Speaker 6 Calm down.

Speaker 36 Okay. And come back to the fold here, Billy, because we need you and you need us.

Speaker 36 You don't want to go down.

Speaker 6 We need Bill Maher. I absolutely agree with that.

Speaker 36 And by the way, you did great on his show the other night. I mean, you're very realistic, you know, but I've been on his show many times, but

Speaker 36 dude, you know,

Speaker 36 don't let them go that way, man.

Speaker 6 I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying.
No, and well, and I lied about the final final.

Speaker 6 This is the final final because I want to pick up what you just said is really important in looking for advice here because I'm a practitioner in this respect as governor of this state.

Speaker 6 I mean, you know, every day my state of mind is one of sort of just overwhelmed with all the incoming that the missives, the messages, the letters, the threats from members of his cabinet, agency directors, lawyers,

Speaker 6 constant. uh back and forth as it relates to sort of this deconstructive state mindset that that trump has and what 2025 represents.

Speaker 6 You know, from our perspective, it's difficult. You know,

Speaker 6 what do you chase?

Speaker 6 Do you react to every little indiscretion or do you wait for the big things? You know, is it a Carville notion to stand back and watch him implode, watch what's happened in the markets?

Speaker 6 This is a proof point of Carville's strategy, one Carville may argue. I don't know.
I mean, what do you do? Or do you flood the zone back?

Speaker 6 Are you constantly in everybody's face and do what Charlie Kirk's doing every single day? I mean,

Speaker 6 where are you in the calibration?

Speaker 36 I believe in the big story, Governor Newsom. I believe in the narrative.
Okay. If you study Lincoln, you study Jack Kennedy, you study the Roosevelt Revolution when he beat Herbert Hoover,

Speaker 36 I believe in the narrative. And so you're not going to beat him.
being a pig like him. If you call his hands little like Marco Rubio, you end up as like one of his knaves, right?

Speaker 36 So you're not going to, you're not, you know, it's like the farmer said about the pig, you're not a pig. The pig likes getting in the mud.
Don't get in the mud with the pig. I don't believe in that.

Speaker 36 You have a supra narrative. Okay.
You can point out to people what they're trying to do to you, the

Speaker 36 bureaucratic terrorism that they're trying to do to you with the federal government exerting power over you. You can do that, but it's subtle, you got to do it subtly.

Speaker 36 The big narrative has to be, who are we as Americans? When you look in the mirror, do you see an America that's aggrieved and victimized, or do you see an America in ascendancy?

Speaker 36 We represent the Americans that are in ascendancy. We are the side for good.
We are the benevolent people. We're not locking the gate to the swimming pool to charge admission.

Speaker 36 We're going to teach other people how to build their own swimming pools. Okay, and we've made some mistakes.
You know, maybe you got to have less regulation so Bill can get his roof done.

Speaker 36 I'm not saying that the Democrats are perfect. You've made some mistakes.
You're working on reform to correct those mistakes. But

Speaker 36 the mistakes that you've made have been from inclusivity.

Speaker 36 The mistakes that you've made, whether it's bail reform or things like that, have been mistakes related to the frailty of human beings and our humanity.

Speaker 36 And so I wouldn't focus on Charlie Kirk's rat-a-tat-tat, flood the zone, or Steve Bannon's stuff, because that's already old news. The new new news is what is the narrative?

Speaker 36 What is the compelling democratic narrative which allows Americans to look in the mirror and say that's me?

Speaker 36 I'm strong, I'm aspirational, I'm kind, I'm benevolent, and I'm going to work alongside of my fellow Americans to put down the interneescent warfare and the interneescent tribal warfare.

Speaker 36 These guys want the tribal warfare, but the average American does not.

Speaker 36 And they're beating you on the tribal warfare and in the culture war, but you can flip the table on them by going in the direction that I'm describing.

Speaker 6 Great way to end, Anthony. Thank you for the conversation.
Thank you for your insight. Thank you for

Speaker 36 it's a huge honor to be on with you. Okay.
I mean, and by the way, you got to, the hair, I mean, Newsome hair is an asset for you. Okay.
You got to, you got to use the hair more, man.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 6 Use the hair more. Yeah.
I mean, it's

Speaker 6 right now it's going to say a word about

Speaker 36 California asset,

Speaker 6 Jesus. Here we go.
Very cute. What a way to end, buddy.
Hey, pleasure. Thanks for taking the time.
I really appreciate it. And by the way, thank you for being so good to staff.
That's a man.

Speaker 6 That's your character, the way you treated everyone around me. They said this guy is a gentleman.
So I just want folks to know that. And I appreciate it.

Speaker 36 Because my grandmother was a maid, Governor Newsom.

Speaker 36 So trust me, it's very important to me that I treat everybody with great kindness because You know, and by the way, that is a non-starter at Skybridge.

Speaker 36 If people are mean to people that are beneath them, it's literally like an evacuation, you know.

Speaker 6 God bless.

Speaker 36 So, but thank you for that. And

Speaker 36 it not to be so in, you know, if it's not an imposition, I would love to do this again in person. I think it'd be a lot more fun.

Speaker 6 That would be a lot of fun. Let's make that happen.

Speaker 36 All right. All the best to you.

Speaker 6 Thank you. See you.

Speaker 48 What do you think makes the perfect snack?

Speaker 3 Hmm.

Speaker 69 It's got to be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.

Speaker 43 Could you be more specific?

Speaker 8 When it's cravenient.

Speaker 64 Okay.

Speaker 69 Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right now in the street at AM P.M. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at AM P.M.

Speaker 3 I'm seeing a pattern here. Well, yeah, we're talking about what I crave.

Speaker 44 Which is anything from AMPM.

Speaker 64 What more could you want?

Speaker 2 Stop by AMPM, where the snacks and drinks are perfectly cravable and convenient.

Speaker 30 That's cravenience. A.M.
P.M., too much good stuff.

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Speaker 1 I think that this is a deliberate attempt to sabotage our movement.

Speaker 30 Episodes of Rip Current Season 2 are available now. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 71 Listen to season two of Family Therapy every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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