And, This is Jordan Klepper

Transcript

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Speaker 41 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 41 And this is The Daily Show's Jordan Clepper.

Speaker 41 Jordan, welcome. Thank you for being on the podcast.

Speaker 23 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 41 Jesus. So, what?

Speaker 41 I mean, we were, you know, we were just commenting, full disclosure, right before you came on the air, just a lot of stress, a lot of anxiety, a lot of, you know, people feeling a little more pessimistic.

Speaker 41 We talk about doom scrolling, but just this notion of like feeling like things are way out of control, particularly this week. So many contemporary things to talk about.

Speaker 41 And then I want to talk about your career and all the extraordinary things you're doing.

Speaker 41 We'd be remiss if not talking about this week in the United States, what's going on in Texas and redistricting, what's happening in states like California, Illinois, New York as it relates to that subject, but particularly on the issue that really struck a chord with a lot of folks, and that's on stats, on labor stats, on this notion that we can fire the messenger, the issue of truth and trust, and feeling like America, as Tom Freeman wrote today, is being deconstructed.

Speaker 41 I mean, where are you as someone that is deeply enmeshed in the body politic and and crosses over uh into uh points of view that are not often shared uh uh and and and you have a deeper understanding of the world we're living in where are you in terms of this you know moment we're living in are you pessimistic or more optimist

Speaker 23 well i mean i'm i'm looking for a big enough rock to hide under more often than not um

Speaker 23 It's hard to get caught up in the news cycle.

Speaker 23 And when I go out there and talk to people as well, not only on the road and talk to people of different political stripes, but I do a lot of stand-up and I do a lot of talking with an audience.

Speaker 23 And people are scared. And I get that.
You are not wrong. It is infuriating to turn on the news and hear that suddenly, you know, reporting the stats and numbers can get you fired.

Speaker 23 It's not a terrible surprise. I will tell you what I'm out in the field and talking with a lot of MAGA supporters and numbers come out.
Everybody sort of has their own statistician at that point.

Speaker 23 Everybody has their own guy they can reference. And in so many ways, I think this Trump administration feels like a reflection of the internet itself.

Speaker 23 And this might be the Luddite in me, but it's so easy for us now to go search out the facts that make us feel comfortable and reinforce the worldview that we have.

Speaker 23 And the conversations I have with people online, which is the worst place to have conversations with people, are often footnoted with websites and numbers and data that don't check out because that's what you do now.

Speaker 23 You have a conversation, you find the thing to make you right. And I'd like to have hope in the higher levels that those conversations are based on fact.
I don't have a lot of that hope.

Speaker 23 And so seeing the firing that took place this week is infuriating. It scares a lot of people in my orbit, but it's not surprising.
It feels like an extension of the internet.

Speaker 41 So what, I mean, what do you do in that instance? I mean, it's interesting when you say it's not surprising. So often I hear that.

Speaker 41 And that's infuriating as well, because then it's almost a permission slip that it's sort of acceptable because

Speaker 41 we've allowed a normalization of deviancy. And so nothing then becomes surprising.
And then it becomes, we're sort of complicit in it. All of a sudden, it sort of manifests.

Speaker 41 And I think that's the great struggle that we're all having is that we're seeing American reverse. We're seeing, you know, we're seeing truth and trust.
We're seeing historical facts being rewritten.

Speaker 41 We're seeing the sort of cultural purge happening, the shock and awe overwhelming us.

Speaker 41 And the zig and the zag, that is the distractions day in and day out. So how do you, I mean, it's, I love that you say sort of manifestation of what's online is becoming offline with Trump.

Speaker 41 How do you start to navigate that? I mean, is that the work you're doing to sort of distill the essence of that and using comedy as an entryway to have that conversation?

Speaker 41 Or what is your diagnosis beyond that in terms of what you do to address it?

Speaker 23 Well, I think we're all living under the fire hose of information and news and chaos. And some of that can be argued as strategy from a Trump administration.

Speaker 23 Some, I think, as an extension of a mindset.

Speaker 23 I do think Esmeral Klein made an interesting point recently that was, I think a lot of people give the Trump administration credit for their diversions and their tangents.

Speaker 23 And I think there's credence in something like that. But I think also it's a manifestation of a mindset that he has that is constantly distracted.

Speaker 23 And he's been given the ability to be distracted and to lose interest in Elon Musk and to jump into something else.

Speaker 23 And so, again, it feels like we're living in a world that is a manifestation of his mindset, an internet mindset, a selfish mindset. And there is this

Speaker 23 fire hose of news that is politically advantageous when you want to get your own things across that might not be popular.

Speaker 23 From a comedic standpoint, when we show up at work and we have this fire hose, like our job's not to solve it, our job is to find the chaos, see where the bullshit is, try to make some sense of it and some humor of it.

Speaker 23 I think

Speaker 23 at its clearest and best, satire can boil down a feeling and a moment into something that's digestible and fast. And so for us, we try to

Speaker 23 wade through the fire hose, find what is important, and also find what we can stick our POV onto with something that hopefully is funny and connects.

Speaker 23 But it's a constant conversation that we're having day in and day out as to like, how do you deal with this? And what is a distraction? Again, we are legislating. Our job is not to fix the solution.

Speaker 23 our job is as a media satire to look at it and find the humor within it uh but we are constantly having to make game time calls as to like are we covering the what happened in the oval office are we covering what's happening with these ice raids um where does humors uh uh have a place where is it best utilized um and and how do we make that work for us and our audience Jordan, it's interesting you say that because, you know, it's interesting with the daily show generally.

Speaker 41 And I, you know, Jon Stewart at sort of peak, and I remember being really angry. I honestly, I'm not,

Speaker 41 I think I told John this when we sat down. We did something on the death penalty a few years ago.
And I think I told him, I said, I'm really pissed at you.

Speaker 41 You walked away from your show with peak influence where folks were tuning in and particularly young folks, but people like me that were washing in everything going on in cable that wanted you to distill the essence using the lens of comedy.

Speaker 41 but also sort of guide us in a deeper understanding, distill through that wit and witticism and satire where we are and where we need to go.

Speaker 41 And I remember he retired right when the beginning of that election. Like, no, you don't get to go, John.

Speaker 41 You have a responsibility. So, I'm interested, you know, people I think, you know, particularly you, Jordan, we're going to get to you specifically.
I mean,

Speaker 41 your improvisational skills, your capacity and sort of legendary capacity to go in and to show empathy and compassion, humanity to people you disagree with, to go to these Trump rallies, to meet with people, they still feel a comfort level to you.

Speaker 41 That attracts folks that are looking for guidance, looking for direction.

Speaker 41 And I wonder, you know, in a world where you're just watching the cable networks and it's just a lot of noise, don't you feel, and I'm curious if you do, but do you feel that comedy and the work you're doing actually is now more important

Speaker 41 in terms of providing the way

Speaker 41 and not just distilling a moment of understanding, but also providing a light in some direction.

Speaker 23 I mean, that's, well,

Speaker 23 as a person in the entertainment industry and an actor,

Speaker 23 I do have a sense of self-importance that does make me think, yes, I'm more and more important every single day.

Speaker 23 Governor Newsome, every single day, I'm more important to the general politic of it all. Yes, sir.
I mean,

Speaker 23 I will say, like,

Speaker 23 going back to when I connected to The Daily Show, I used to watch it in college.

Speaker 23 I wasn't interested in politics. I wasn't connected.
I wasn't locked in. Quite frankly, I don't know how college students do it today.

Speaker 23 Like, I had the luxury of being naive about the world around me and just focusing on improv comedy and drinking a 40-ounce and not throwing up. Like, that was like my journey as a 21-year-old.

Speaker 23 And now, a 21-year-old has to be so connected to the world around them. But I watched John on the daily show, and this guy was able to distill ideas quickly.

Speaker 23 He wasn't the end of information, but he was a conduit to learning more about something. And I trusted him.
I didn't think he was bullshitting me. I think media has bias on it.

Speaker 23 Every media has bias on it. I want every person who watches television to understand what bias is there.

Speaker 23 It doesn't mean there's not great people who are trying to tell you the truth as they know it, but like there's bias in the structures and the institutions and the places that tell us the things that we have.

Speaker 23 I think what a lot of people get out of the daily show, what I got out of the daily show, was like, I get Jon Stewart. He's a comedian.
He's trying to tell us something funny.

Speaker 23 And I think bullshit is his barometer. And when he sees something that doesn't sit right with him, he goes at it.
And so you knew his bias.

Speaker 23 I think a lot of people, when they watch our stuff, they watch my stuff, they know my bias. I'm not an unbiased journalist trying to go out there and get what I...

Speaker 23 What I want to do is find something funny, find hypocrisy, find irony. I care about things.
I'm progressive in nature. and I do my research when I go out there.

Speaker 23 And I think people can connect to me in knowing that about what I'm doing out in the field.

Speaker 23 And quite frankly, when I'm doing the man on the street stuff in the field, like I have the luxury of not being a journalist in some ways, pretending just to be unbiased in their conversations.

Speaker 23 I can have a goal and a hypocrisy that I'm trying to put forward. I can be relentless in the ways in which I go after somebody to try to find that hypocrisy there.

Speaker 23 And hopefully I can be also also empathetic within that, that not only gets me something revealing about somebody, but also has some sort of connection. So, for me, that's sort of how

Speaker 23 I see the work that we do there. And, you know, the level of import, I think that will be on an audience to decide.

Speaker 23 But what I always get from the satirists that I love, quite frankly, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, like the people I grew up with, the people I get to work with, like, is that you understand their bias, you understand their tenacity, and because of that, they can cut to the quick.

Speaker 23 And my favorite quote about humor, George Saunders, the author, says, like, humor is what happens when we're told the truth more swiftly and quickly than we're accustomed to.

Speaker 23 And I think, like, at its best, like, in those moments where you have a fire hose of Trump BS,

Speaker 23 like that quick, crystallized joke or revelation

Speaker 23 can articulate

Speaker 23 through the chaos.

Speaker 41 Love it. Were you, by the way,

Speaker 41 you look at Robin Williams, George Carlin, I mean, were there folks in the political frame that you, I mean, particularly, I mean, you mentioned obviously Colbert, and we'll get to that in a moment, and John himself, obviously.

Speaker 41 But when you were growing up, when you were that 21-year-old hanging out in college, wasn't it? I mean, were you attracted to political comedy? Were you impacted to that?

Speaker 41 sort of wit and witticism, that capacity to distill the essence of a moment?

Speaker 23 I loved, in college I found Money Python, which was political in a different sense. I think absurdist political comedy.

Speaker 23 And that drew me to the Second City in Chicago, which was political and social satire.

Speaker 23 And so once I jumped into the world of like the Second City comedy, I learned about like Nichols and May, who were doing such great political satire in the 50s.

Speaker 23 And then Stephen Colbert, Steve Carell, Tina Faye, the people at Second City, like even if they weren't overtly political at the time, like the stuff, the work they were doing in Chicago

Speaker 23 that they would eventually go on and do at SNL and other places, like was all very much commentary on the world around them, even if that's just social dynamics, extending that into political stuff.

Speaker 23 Like that to me was like, oh,

Speaker 23 the real marrow of this comedy thing is like, use these tools of absurdism and wit, but go at like articulating these cultural trends. And so that was sort of always my world.

Speaker 23 And then John comes in and Colbert comes in, and I can see like them articulating a worldview and speaking to what people were talking about.

Speaker 23 And so I became more and more a political comedian as I became older. And those people also started to flourish in ways that they hadn't when I was coming up.

Speaker 41 What is, I mean, obviously, we'd be remiss if speaking of coming up, we didn't bring up the Colbert issue. I mean, that kind of took people.

Speaker 41 I mean, it took me by complete surprise.

Speaker 41 Also pissed me off. I think it pissed a lot of people off.
And back to sort of how we started this. I mean, it was alarming beyond words.
I mean, because back to truth and trust. I mean,

Speaker 41 are they letting this guy go and eliminating this show because it costs too much or is it about something else? And I know it puts you in a tough spot. So I'm mindful of that, man.

Speaker 41 I don't mean to put you on the spot just to Comedy Central, et cetera. But I mean, how did I'm curious what when you first heard that news, where were you? How did you take it?

Speaker 41 And what went through your mind? What was sort of the initial reaction?

Speaker 23 I was hosting the Daily show that week and we had a we had a big week and we had a a great week of shows and as i walked off on our last show on thursday i got the news that the uh colbert show was ending and i have a lot of friends who work over there and stephen is is a family member of the daily show you know he's he he's he lives in in in lore over there and is was you know a daily show member for so long and so we we we love stephen and yeah immediately it's a it's a gut punch i think like his voice i think is important right now at a time where it feels like a lot of people are stepping down when they could be stepping up.

Speaker 23 Stephen Colbert is somebody who's stepping up, and to see an organization push back on that is alarming.

Speaker 23 I know there are economic things at play here.

Speaker 23 I think where I get frustrated beyond just not being able to see Stephen Colbert, and quite frankly, I think Stephen Colbert is going to find ways to be part of the conversation for the next few years.

Speaker 23 So I think

Speaker 23 he's going to be around, and I know that for sure.

Speaker 23 I I think there became such a conversation around the economics of late night and the end of late night.

Speaker 23 And I think you can make arguments about like whether or not the advertising structure on linear television works at 1130 slot. Okay, have that business conversation.

Speaker 23 But I think the effect of late night, of a Jon Stewart, of a Stephen Colbert, of a Jimmy Kimmel, like people are interacting with this content and this information more than they ever have before.

Speaker 23 I know with the Daily Show, our reach online and all the different spaces. I do stuff at the desk, I do stuff at the field, I do specials that go out across the globe.

Speaker 23 They're part of the conversation. You have the president of the United States who's pissed at the things that are being said on late night.

Speaker 23 Like, to me, that is not a reflection of an industry that has no connection. In fact, it feels like a reflection of an industry that is part of the larger conversation.

Speaker 23 And quite frankly, like a couple days later, Steven's first show back, like John Colbert,

Speaker 23 John went on Colbert, so did Oliver, Seth Myers, Jimmy Fallon. Like

Speaker 23 what gave me a sense of pride in this space, where we are seeing institutions and people who have a microphone, we're seeing them take a step back.

Speaker 23 I was really proud to see these comedians who are in different networks, different places, have different priorities, like coming together and standing behind Stephen, speaking truth to power and supporting a guy that they think should have a voice wherever that may be.

Speaker 23 And so that to me was like a little sense of pride. And also, I really wish they asked me to be a part of that.
It would be, it would have been nice. I'm in town.
I could have written a small part.

Speaker 23 Like, I'm, you know, there's, there's an element, it could have been slightly better, but for the most part,

Speaker 23 it made me feel a sense of pride for like the late night comedians who are, who are not going quietly into the night.

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Speaker 41 It's interesting, just sort of breaking down the reach that it punches way above its weight outside that time slot and how and all of them, these mediums and all this capacity to communicate.

Speaker 41 And obviously, that's a big part of what you've been doing.

Speaker 41 You're not just doing the correspondent work, you're not just hosting on nights the daily show, but you obviously have have branched out as well.

Speaker 41 You do these deeper sort of specials, but you're also doing a bunch of podcasts as well. Is this, I mean, at the end of the day, is, I mean, no, it seems to me, you haven't seen it on MSNBC.

Speaker 41 Everybody that's on MSNBC seems to have a podcast. Sean Hannity's always had his radio shows for years and years and years.
I mean, the multifaceted nature, no longer linear, as you say.

Speaker 41 What's that landscape look like today? And what do you sort of, where do you anticipate that going?

Speaker 23 I mean, it's wild. I mean, you're the governor of a state right now.
Yeah. And you're, we're talking on your podcast.
Yeah, enough sense. That's, yeah, it's, it is a

Speaker 41 late night, you know, a host that otherwise I would have to go on your damn show to have a conversation.

Speaker 23 Five six changes.

Speaker 41 I mean, everything about it, right?

Speaker 23 This is, this, this landscape is so strange. You're like, oh, I guess I also have to have a podcast.
This is, yeah, this is, wow.

Speaker 23 I, I do think from like an entertainment standpoint, you have to be able to connect to people where they are. And so like late night is a great space for that.

Speaker 23 You know, what I'm proud of with the Daily Show is like we have evolved and we've always been able to like, I can go into the field and doing those pieces connect with people in a different way.

Speaker 23 And there's a curiosity with people in their heads about like what do actually people think out in the middle of America. And a lot of this content is made on the coasts.

Speaker 23 And so for me to be able to go to, you know, Florida, to Pennsylvania, wherever, and talk to somebody is compelling in a way that isn't seen on other venues. And then you have podcasts.

Speaker 23 And then you have other spaces that really are the way people are starting to get their information and have these conversations.

Speaker 23 So it is important for comedians, for politicians to meet people where they are, to expand what those conversations are.

Speaker 23 Quite frankly, what I like about the podcast medium is that it is, it's elongated.

Speaker 23 Everything else is shortening and the attention span is shortening and the context shortens. And that's where I get worried in the comedy space.
I'm sure as well in the political space.

Speaker 23 Like once you shorten everything to just that clip, you lose the context.

Speaker 23 You lose the ability to have any kind of depth of conversation or awareness of an issue that has more than one easy digestible side. And in a format like a podcast, at least,

Speaker 23 I'm happy to hear that people listen to things for an hour or two hours and digest that. And wherever that space exists, exists, I think you have to kind of go to that and have those conversations.

Speaker 41 Speaking of go-to, I mean,

Speaker 41 in your go-to has been, I mean, your brand, it's just next level. And I was, man,

Speaker 41 I realize I think I watched every damn clip before when I was sort of in anticipation of meeting with you for this.

Speaker 23 You've got shit to do. Governor, you know shit, but

Speaker 23 aren't you trying to double gerrymander California right now?

Speaker 23 We're going to get to

Speaker 41 what we're doing in reaction to.

Speaker 23 I was going to say, like instead of my videos, you could take more Republican votes away. Is that what's happening? What's going on in Book?

Speaker 41 We all have capacity to do more and be more. And that's the spirit of what you've done.

Speaker 41 How many damn Trump rallies have you been to?

Speaker 23 Have you counted? Or is it?

Speaker 23 I've lost count. It has been, I mean, I started doing it in 2015.

Speaker 41 What was the, by the way, what was the, and we'll get to the count in a second, but what was the inspiration for that first Trump rally?

Speaker 23 Oh, boy.

Speaker 23 I mean, mean i can't it was i mean i think back in the time it was can you believe it a reality star is running for president we should we should get out there and talk to people before this goes away

Speaker 23 before it goes away

Speaker 23 you know what was compelling that first rally

Speaker 23 what stood out to me like

Speaker 23 the first rally which was very early in trump announcing his presidency the conspiracy of the moment of the trump moment was the barack obama birth certificate which

Speaker 23 which feels like forever ago But at that time in American history,

Speaker 23 to walk up with a camera and a microphone and ask somebody if you think Barack Obama was born in America,

Speaker 23 nine out of ten people would say, of course he was born in America. Even if they didn't believe that Barack Obama was born in America, culturally, that's not only insensitive, it is racist.

Speaker 23 And you're not going to say that in front of a camera, in front of a microphone.

Speaker 23 It'd be asinine to think that I would get somebody on camera saying, no, Barack Obama is a secret Muslim. Like that was the beginning.

Speaker 23 And I remember talking to people about that and nobody would mention that. A few months later, that number became, at a MAGA rally, it became six, seven, and 10.

Speaker 23 People were unafraid to call Barack Obama a secret Muslim. You could just feel it.
I was like, oh my God, this was months ago. This seemed like it was an impossibility.

Speaker 23 And not that racism doesn't exist in America, but at least that there was an understanding to hide your racism or an understanding that like that was a that was an unpopular, an untoward opinion that maybe you hadn't vetted enough in your mind to actually articulate in front of a stranger.

Speaker 23 And yet the power of that man saying that over and over and over again, it just moved that line in such a dramatic and swift fashion that I've seen happen over and over and over again to this day.

Speaker 41 So that was in and I want to get to the communication because it's interesting. I mean, you use the frame over and over and over again, this notion of repetition in terms of a communication frame.

Speaker 41 But 2015 sort of launched that, the birther issue, which created a lot of your content. And what, 90, 100 rallies later, probably?

Speaker 23 About that. Yeah, I think that's about 90, 100, yeah.

Speaker 41 What, I mean, what is,

Speaker 41 what's been the through line for you?

Speaker 41 What's been the most sort of, you know, as you've sort of reflect on the journey of all these interactions and anybody that hasn't taken the time to see these clips really should because I, you know, I use the word empathy, your ability to engage people and to create that space of trust.

Speaker 41 And they may be embarrassed at the end of the day. They may not even be embarrassed because they're situationally unaware of the contradictions, which are fascinating.

Speaker 41 And I don't know how much editing you do. We can get to that in a moment, or how many things we don't see, of course, how many tries that complete disasters or that you just go into one.

Speaker 23 But

Speaker 41 it seems to me a lot of really good people, and it breaks my heart.

Speaker 41 I feel more empathetic watching your interactions i feel i feel really badly for people that they've been so lied to so misled and they feel they feel you can feel the emotion the anger of being contradicted or themselves contradicting themselves and when the facts are presented and the facts then become can't be true because my beliefs are so strong anyway what has been your sort of throughput what have you learned on this over the course of these many many years these rallies

Speaker 23 well i i think you are you are spot on in that,

Speaker 23 you know,

Speaker 23 when a lot of people, often from the left, come up and ask about MAGA rallies, and many people from the left never went to a Trump rally, and I highly recommend it.

Speaker 23 What I think is so enjoyable and empathetic about those events is like, they're like a parade coming to town. And when I talk,

Speaker 23 even if you aren't on board, you go to the parade coming into town.

Speaker 23 And for the most part, a giant group of those folks are there because they want community and they get it. They get it immediately and they want meaning.

Speaker 23 You have the most powerful person on the freaking planet who's like, this,

Speaker 23 you can be a patriot. You can do this thing.
Stand up. That is such a, it's such an amazing promise to give to people.

Speaker 23 And the desire to have meaning and community in your life is such a universal desire. It's something that I'm constantly searching for.
And

Speaker 23 I feel it there and I like it.

Speaker 23 I yearn for it. I'm a Michigan football fan and I go to the big house and I see the exact same thing happen.
Like, it's a trick, it's what we do. We buy a hat.
There's a reason you put on a hat.

Speaker 23 I put on a Michigan hat, they put on a MAGA hat, that red hat. It's because as soon as you put that on, you feel like you're a part of this team.

Speaker 23 You see 10,000 other people who share something in common with you. And that I see, and that I understand, and I yearn for more of that in my own life.
It's the manipulation of that.

Speaker 23 These people are vulnerable and open to this.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 the lies and the BS that is fed to these folks, I think when I have these conversations with people, more often than not, I'm confronting them with information that is new to them.

Speaker 23 They have to articulate their opinion that they've shared with their friends over and over again. They have to articulate why for the first time in real time with me.

Speaker 23 And I think that's what you start to realize. It's like, oh, they haven't stress tested this idea.
In the old days,

Speaker 23 you'd have your friends at the bar who don't believe what you believe, and you'd have to tell them why you believe that wild thing.

Speaker 23 What facts you have to prove the birtherism lie. But now your six pals that you see, they're not going to press you on it.
The internet that you're on isn't going to press you on it.

Speaker 23 The Fox News that you're listening to is just reinforcing it.

Speaker 23 And so when you go out into a field and you talk to me and I ask you something like that, you assume this has already been stress tested and perfect. You haven't even thought.

Speaker 23 thought through why you believe it so surely. And then when this dumb lanky guy asks you, but why, over and over again, you start to see those cracks.
And for me, that is what is most revelatory.

Speaker 23 You see the propaganda and how it seeps its way into people. You see how identity is something that

Speaker 23 forces people to cling on to things, even though they may see the cracks in the logic.

Speaker 23 But you also see people

Speaker 23 haven't thought through the logistics of that. They've just trusted.
And I think that's such a

Speaker 23 loving attribute for most people to have, this trust that this person who garnered so much fame and attention for his entire career came here and told me it was true so why isn't it I think that's like on the left you can kind of forget it's like what happened on January 6th like is crazy and I was there you were there but I was there but when like the president tells you to do these things that person is so powerful and to believe in that person like you understand where that comes from and it's so infuriating that he has the power and the ability to get those points across But I think the humanity in the MAGA supporters that I find is in just the trust and the faith that this community that they've found

Speaker 23 couldn't possibly be steered wrong by somebody who's accrued so much power and success.

Speaker 41 What, you know, and I want to go back to January 6th because I don't think people fully appreciate you. When you say you were there, you were working.

Speaker 23 I was working, Governor, working there on January 6th.

Speaker 41 Recently, pardon Jordan Clepper, yes, is is joining us today on the podcast.

Speaker 41 Yes.

Speaker 41 You were just there.

Speaker 41 It was a peaceful rally. Peaceful.

Speaker 23 It was just a traditional tourist visit.

Speaker 41 It was, yeah.

Speaker 41 Let me ask you, though, did, I mean, you must have, I mean,

Speaker 41 we saw the images of your cameraman kind of getting tripped up, this sort of intentional effort to become a victim, the person that tripped him.

Speaker 41 to say, oh, he ran into me to sort of create these conditions, sort of Erwellian nature of that. But when did, you must have,

Speaker 41 there was, I imagine, points where you started to realize, shit, this thing's getting real, that this is getting a little out of control. We need to get the hell out of here.

Speaker 23 Yeah, it was, I mean, we were, we had been to the Million Magav march a month before, which was the Stop the Steal march.

Speaker 23 They said a million. That was their numbers, but there was 40,000 people there, perhaps.

Speaker 23 And it was tense. And there'd been a shift in, like, you know, as contentious as some of the interviews I have can get, for the most part, people want to have a conversation and they don't get testy.

Speaker 23 Post that Trump election loss, people were testy and they were frustrated and they were argumentative.

Speaker 23 And we had a few situations where security had to step in. And so for January 6th, we sort of knew people are going to be angry.
And Trump had been telling people, be there, we'll be wild.

Speaker 23 When you show up, the mall is full of people wearing very aggressive t-shirts with guns guns on them. And when you talk to people, there was nothing but talk about revolution and what have you.

Speaker 23 So we were very strategic about where we wanted to be.

Speaker 23 And we also quite literally knew the game plan for the crowd was going to be listen to the Trump speech and then move on to the Capitol and stop the vote.

Speaker 23 So we positioned ourselves to be there in the front when the vote was taking place. And we watched Proud Boys march by us and we saw everything happen.
I think from our own perspective,

Speaker 23 it was intense. We didn't think they would get inside.

Speaker 23 At some point, you're like, we think this is coming, so I'm sure there's enough structures in the way to stop this from going as far as some people would like it to be.

Speaker 23 And when they broke down those first barriers, what was so fascinating was like the mix. You had the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, the people who were dressed for war.

Speaker 23 They were there, they were up front. And they pushed through and they were attacking.
And then you also had this second wave of MAGA supporters who've been pretending to be dressed for war for years

Speaker 23 and dressed like tourists in the capital, standing on top of barriers, like echoing movements from war movies to get people up there. And like that day to me was such,

Speaker 23 it's sort of like this Trump administration in general. Like it was so...
heartbreaking and sad and absurd at the same time.

Speaker 23 I'm interviewing a man on a Segway going up trying to overthrow the government and also people with zip ties.

Speaker 23 I interviewed people who I would later find out brought weapons into the Capitol. And you just, there was real danger and threat and ludicrous absurdity at the same time.

Speaker 23 And flash bangs started going off. People started breaking inside.
And we had a security detail with us that was like, it's time to go. We don't know what this situation is.
We can't control it.

Speaker 23 And we got out of there.

Speaker 23 But it was, it was, it was heartbreaking and ridiculous and everything all in in in one and and in so many ways predictable and i think that's part of what is so gosh darn infuriating

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Speaker 40 So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer, the Investigation into the Most Notorious Killer in New York since the son of Sam.

Speaker 40 Available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 41 Was it predictable to you that Trump would find his way back? I mean, at that moment, you must thought, this is it. This is over.
Over now. It's, I mean, he's toast.

Speaker 23 Yeah, I mean, it's

Speaker 23 this news cycle, you know, it eats its own tail so quickly, but watching watching Republican Congress folks stand up and talk about January 6th, the day after, talking, Lindsey Graham articulate being done, and like, go back and watch those.

Speaker 23 I did recently, and I was like, wow, the certainty,

Speaker 23 the bipartisan nature of seeing chaos and a reality in front of our own eyes and calling it out. I mean, it's the most photographed crime in human history.

Speaker 23 If we as Americans can't watch that and say, we don't support this, this is the line. And it felt like there was a moment where that was the narrative and that was discussed.

Speaker 23 And so, yes, I thought that was the end of the Trump chapter, at least in terms of being president, that this MAGA movement is still looking for a leader and that won't die out.

Speaker 23 I didn't think it would end quite that quick, but the fact that it has resurfaced like this and he's found his way back into office, I don't think I fully saw coming.

Speaker 23 Although, as I started to go back on the trail, the numbers seemed lower, but it didn't seem like it was impossible for it to happen again.

Speaker 41 Finding that meaning and community once again. Yeah, but you, I mean, you also had to find your way back.

Speaker 41 Look, I think the interesting thing about you is it's one thing to go back during COVID, you got a mask on, there's some anonymity, people know you, but don't really know you.

Speaker 41 I mean, how in the hell do you show up at a Trump rally nowadays?

Speaker 41 I mean, you're too well known. Sorry, my friend.
You have secure. I mean, now that security is not just there for a moment like January 6th.

Speaker 41 I mean, and you've got infamous examples of people that will see you, call you out, call you fake news.

Speaker 41 The brick suit man, we'll get to him in a minute, among others, sort of these infamous interactions that you've had over the years. But how is it?

Speaker 41 I mean, how is that journey now in terms of reconnect? Or you get to know all these people and they love you. Like, hey, Jordan, good to see you, buddy.

Speaker 23 I have friends that I see at these rallies now. I know all of the

Speaker 23 t-shirt salesmen. We're pals.
We see each other every week.

Speaker 23 I do have multiple friends who I've talked to over the years that it's nice to reconnect with and see how their thoughts have changed or if they haven't.

Speaker 23 And it is remarkable. Sometimes people will seek out to talk to me.
Sometimes people will say no way.

Speaker 23 I think the thing that was both eye-opening and disheartening was I went to CPAC a couple years ago and assumed,

Speaker 23 assumed going to CPAC that no one would want to talk to me. That It's sort of ridiculous that we got credentials to be there, but we'll see who would want to talk to me.
I was a rock star at CPAC.

Speaker 23 And for two reasons, there was a line of young Republican Congress hopefuls who wanted to talk to me, were desperate to talk to me.

Speaker 23 And literally, you saw it. I saw Marjorie Taylor Greene walk through the hall with 10 press behind her.

Speaker 23 And you see these young Congress folks, these hopefuls from the middle of Indiana, who are watching her and they're like, oh my God, that's the attention. What do I need to do? What do I need to do?

Speaker 23 Let me talk to this guy. Let me talk to this guy.
And so there was the line, literally handing my producer cards. Please talk to me.
I would love to talk to you. You're just like, oh, these are.

Speaker 23 And I talked to a few people. These are moderate, good, young, nice people running for office.
But you see their head shifting where they're like, oh, that's not the game. The game, I have to be big.

Speaker 23 I have to court a fight with this guy. I got to own the libs.
I have to do this.

Speaker 23 And then secondarily, I ran into MAGA fans at CPAC, specifically like this 18 or 19-year-old boy who is a Trump super fan.

Speaker 23 And he showed me pictures in his home of Trump cutouts and posters, pictures with Trump. He loved his whole identity was Donald Trump.
And he sought me out. He was like, I want to talk to you.

Speaker 23 I want to get pictures. I asked him point blank.
I was like, you know who I am. You know what I want to talk about.
You know my point of view. Why do you want to talk to me?

Speaker 23 And he's like, you're part of it. You're part of the world.
You're one of the bad guys. Get a picture with me.
And it's, I'm the heel. Like, like in the UFC world,

Speaker 23 these guys, they don't like me, but I'm the bad guy to them in this world. So they want a picture with it.
And it's a game and it's their performance. So collect all the characters,

Speaker 23 try to get their autographs. It's just a game to be played.

Speaker 41 Jordan, you have no idea how much that resonates with me and how much I appreciate that.

Speaker 41 I mean, I have so many similar experiences along those lines it's so what i mean you know i well let me go back because i you know people are like what the hell is he talking about with this brick soup man but yes i think it goes to the goes to the essence of what you just described as well which is your ability to connect with the other side and and the challenges that we all have connecting with people that we vehemently disagree with in terms of worldview and points of view just you know so many people just i don't understand how hot what's going on with my just makes no sense etc and you had an interesting infamous and I don't want to belabor it because it's well chronicled, but you had like this three and a half hour conversation with someone that was going after you at one of the Trump rallies.

Speaker 41 And the two of you just happened to get stuck in an airport, I think in Green Bay of Wisconsin, if my memory serves. And you guys were stuck together waiting for a damn plane.

Speaker 41 Just the luck, you know, what are the chances of this? And so you had nothing else to do. So you ended up spending.
all that time bullshitting back and forth. What happened?

Speaker 23 Yeah, it's

Speaker 23 we got to know each other as humans and not as performers in front of a medium. And

Speaker 23 it was a remarkable day. Like, like you said, he spent

Speaker 23 the entire shoot day heckling our camera crew. And he's sort of an infamous MAGA celebrity that Trump brings on stage because he's dressed like the border wall.

Speaker 23 And when I see him at the airport, the last thing I wanted to do was spend three and a half hours talking and fighting with this guy over politics. But it was remarkable in that,

Speaker 23 like, I joke that we're away from our mediums, but it is true. Like, our guards were down.
Like,

Speaker 23 he's not performing for a camera and playing a part of the brick suit guy. That doesn't mean that he's not, he doesn't believe many of the things that he talks about.

Speaker 23 I don't think he's insincere in that, but I think he's a larger version of certainty that exists in his heart.

Speaker 23 As am I as a person who is in front of the camera as well. And

Speaker 23 with no cameras, no microphones, when we got past, like, is this person recording something to try to make the other person look bad? Like, then we just started talking about

Speaker 23 his certainties around Trump. I think what was surprising to me, like, he talked about,

Speaker 23 like, again, he is in some ways the manifestation of like a Trump supporter.

Speaker 23 But he would articulate to me was that he wears the brick suit because he sees it as a meme and memes are attention getting.

Speaker 23 And he wants the attention of a camera, and he wants to articulate that MAGA vision because he sees himself as more articulate in the ways of Trump than other people. And I don't think he's wrong.

Speaker 23 I think that's probably a savvy move.

Speaker 23 But as we talked beyond the cameras, like he talked about how he didn't think Trump won the last election, which is bonkers not to believe the big lie if you are the big face.

Speaker 23 He told me he wished he'd move on. He had political disagreements with them.
He had more of a libertarian streak and loved to be an online troll. That seemed to be most of his personality.

Speaker 23 And he would be open about that. Like he loved to go on Reddit boards, stir shit up, and get people upset.
That's sort of what he thought was funny and comedic. And so, like, I got it.

Speaker 23 It wasn't my thing. He was way into history.
He was a smart guy.

Speaker 23 This is the thing that I always think about when progressive people, when Democrats come up to me and they want to say, like, oh, all those crazy people you talk to.

Speaker 23 Like, I talk to people who believe crazy things. And you need to understand those are separate things.

Speaker 23 And brick suit guy, I don't agree with the things he talks about, but the man who has a handlebar mustache and five bespoke brick suits that he goes up on stage and talks about, you'd like to think he's an idiot and he's not.

Speaker 23 He's smart. He's smart.
And we talked. We had good conversations.

Speaker 23 We found, if not common ground, like we softened on some of the certainties that we had around issues that we were less aware of than perhaps we would perform in front of a camera.

Speaker 23 And I say this, the moment that sticks with me is like we got on the train, the plane, still talking, and

Speaker 23 I was in an exit row and was asked if I I wanted to took on the responsibilities of being in an exit row and I took to him and I mischievously say I hope this freaks you the fuck out man

Speaker 23 and and he laughs and and in retrospect it's like that that was that's it every conversation I have with with so many other people, you don't get to the point where you're actually laughing together because your identity is at stake.

Speaker 23 Because any challenge to your certainty, any challenge to a thing you have said is seen as like an existential attack on who you are. But I knew who this guy was.

Speaker 23 I spent three and a half hours with him. We connected on some stuff.
And so when I poked him, he didn't crumble,

Speaker 23 didn't just explode into just dust. He laughed.
And I laughed back. And I'm like, oh, that still exists.
That exists in America. We're not as polarized as some people would say.

Speaker 23 The conversation pulls us that way and it looks that way.

Speaker 23 But if you can spend three and a half hours with somebody in a Green Bay airport, you're gonna at least at least get to the point where you you believe the same premise of the joke and that to me speaks to not separate realities but at least a generalized understanding no well i i

Speaker 41 thank you for sharing that story i think it's incredibly important and it's what we need to hear right now because i mean

Speaker 41 I keep saying a divorce is not an option.

Speaker 41 And at the end of the day, we've got to live together across our differences. And it's exhausting.

Speaker 41 I mean, it's just this zero-sum thinking, this notion, you know, that, you know, everybody's just at each other 24-7.

Speaker 41 You feel like, you know, you're waking up and, you know, people are trying to put a crowbar in the spokes of the wheels of your front tire and trip you up.

Speaker 41 And so this notion that we, you know, are all better off, we're all better off. This notion that we all want to be loved and need to be loved is so foundational.

Speaker 41 But at the same time, I imagine for you, it's still a struggle in terms of changing minds. Because I've seen so many clips with you where you've presented something, you know, just a perfect example.

Speaker 41 You had a woman who was very upset, the notion that a woman, I think Kamala Harris at the time,

Speaker 41 it may have been Hillary, but I think it was Kamala, was going to be president because she said, as a woman, she says, too many hormones. She's going to get us into a war.

Speaker 41 And your immediate retort is, well, haven't all the wars been started by men?

Speaker 41 And she paused and still went on. I mean, you didn't change her mind.
And this notion of changing minds, changing hearts, changing behaviors.

Speaker 41 I imagine that's been a struggle for you with all of these interactions.

Speaker 23 Yeah, it is. I mean, I will say the intention of these interactions is not to change.
The intention is like, again, my bias is towards comedy, finding hypocrisy and irony.

Speaker 23 And more often than not, it's like

Speaker 23 I'm curious as to how far the propaganda has spread and how deep it is inside these people's mindsets. And so I don't find people's minds being changed, being confronted with information.

Speaker 23 And frankly, across the board in my personal life as well, it's like, oh,

Speaker 23 this idea that, oh, if I have the information and give this person, that mind will get changed. I think

Speaker 23 one of my favorite interactions was I was talking to a woman during Trump's first impeachment, and she

Speaker 23 was talking about how Trump is innocent. And this was the time when he was blocking testimony from John Bolton, amongst other peoples.

Speaker 23 And I said, well, if he was innocent, he wouldn't be blocking people from testifying. She's like, exactly.
He's innocent. He wants everybody to speak.
He wants everybody to testify.

Speaker 23 And I was like, well, so if he was blocking people, that would be like proof of his guilt. She was like, of course, of course, but he's not doing that.
And I say, well, he is doing that.

Speaker 23 And she takes this really long beat and she thinks about it. She really hears me.
And then she goes, I don't care.

Speaker 23 And that's, I was like, thank you. Because more often than not, the conversations that I have out there, the politics is the pretense.
It's the fun. It's the parrying that people have.

Speaker 23 this is an identity for so many people and they will jump into the abortion debate and some people believe it vehemently but more often than not it's just the it's the tools you use to to play the identity and so so when it comes to like changing people's minds changing people's identity is hard once you put on that hat People see you in that hat.

Speaker 23 And it's not just that you can take the hat off because your whole community saw you as the guy with that hat. And that's a hard thing.
It's beyond just buying it. It's how you are perceived.

Speaker 23 It's how now your families see you.

Speaker 23 I think about like families who have now lived in this Trump era for 12 years.

Speaker 23 You've lost friendships, family members based on it. Like to change your mind is a big, big, big ask.
And so

Speaker 23 I don't think it happens with just facts, but I do think like

Speaker 23 to me, what I'm always on and on about is this certainty that we have that I think is so unbecoming. And

Speaker 23 it is a necessary trait in in the world of social media and online engagement to be the most certain loudest version of yourself.

Speaker 23 But the only way that I've seen any kind of movement and change or like with the brick suit guy, like a moment or a space for that, it comes with uncertainty that I bring to the table.

Speaker 23 And then he can match it. And so

Speaker 23 for all of my well-meaning, thoughtful, progressive folks who are like, if I just get the right information and article to give to my cousin, it will be fine.

Speaker 23 I'm like, I don't think it's going to do it. Give it a shot.

Speaker 23 But to me, the only softening I've seen is when you enter the conversation with an I don't know or something you are uncertain about, which is a scary place.

Speaker 23 The internet doesn't want you to start that way.

Speaker 23 But like that invitation has been the only way to get somebody else to at least, like, like at least bring the barricades down a bit to let some new light in and see.

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Speaker 43 Run a business and not thinking about radio? Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio and iHeart today than they were 20 years ago.

Speaker 43 And only iHeart broadcast radio connects with more Americans than TV, digital, social, any other media. Even twice as many teens than TikTok.
And that reach means everything.

Speaker 43 Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results.
Now let's get those results growing for your business.

Speaker 43 Radio's here now more than ever, and iHeart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business? Think iHeart.

Speaker 43 Streaming, podcasting, and radio, where the reach is real. Let us show you at iHeartAdvertising.com.

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Speaker 40 So why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is Monster, Hunting the Long Island Serial Killer.

Speaker 40 The investigation into the most notorious killer in New York, since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 41 I love the words you're using. You talk about meaning, you talk about community, and the power of identity and how you shake that identity, but with humility and grace.

Speaker 41 And I think it begs the question hardly, you know, the words you would use typically with this topic, but the Epstein issue. I mean, that invites what to you in this whole conversation.

Speaker 41 What does Epstein mean in relationship to everything you've just said?

Speaker 23 Well, it's fascinating to watch it play out on the right because it does feel like

Speaker 23 it feels like a promise broken right now. It's Epstein and this idea of this conspiracy that would come out was something I heard on the trail for the last eight years.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 I do think to me,

Speaker 23 like we've, we talked a little bit about this and some off camera about like, um,

Speaker 23 about the difficulty of governing. And I think so many people, so many people who go to a Trump rally and are there,

Speaker 23 are there just for the show and the community, I think part of it's because there's a disconnect between what they see governing as and what politics is.

Speaker 23 Like, I think like they have, they feel disconnected from what government can do for them. And so therefore, they might as well have fun with the game of the politics.

Speaker 23 And Trump is like, well, let me just play the politics part.

Speaker 23 And when he gets into the governing part, what I'm curious about right now is like, well, there's a connection now. Now this person actually has the power that you have given them.

Speaker 23 Do you like this big, beautiful bill? Do you like your health care options right now? Do you like what's happening at the border?

Speaker 23 Do you like the information that you're getting or not getting about Jeffrey Epstein? But Trump has done a good job of living in the chasm between politics and governing.

Speaker 23 And so I do think there is a real disconnect with so many people who voted for Trump, not with a true idea that they thought he would change things, but that he was the most interesting interesting version to be in a system that they thought could never change.

Speaker 23 So I think we're in that right now.

Speaker 23 And the Epstein thing

Speaker 23 cracks it a bit because if

Speaker 23 you've really bought into this conspiratorial mindset, which a lot of people have, and that these people can deliver this truth to you, it's hard not to see the writing that is on the wall.

Speaker 23 Occam's razor is super sharp here about why some of this information might be withheld, why why you're not getting all the things you were promised.

Speaker 23 And I think we're going to see all the shucking and jiving from the Trump administration trying to get you to focus on something else. But it is an inherent lie towards the Trump brand.
That

Speaker 23 I don't know what the long-term effects of it will be, but

Speaker 23 I think his success will be in the fact that

Speaker 23 if he's created a populace that is so pessimistic about the effect of the government, then he may win out in this.

Speaker 23 But if there's actually some faith left in that these people can do good for you, he's going to have a hard time writing that circle.

Speaker 41 Before we close, Dora, I'm interested, you know, I want to connect back to that 18, 19-year-old guy that, you know, just his identity, speaking of identity, was all attached to

Speaker 41 Trump, but also to you in some respects. That's all part of this sort of dialectic.
and this game as you describe it.

Speaker 41 And

Speaker 41 everyone's relationship to one another, the good versus the bad the you know the truth all that what you know have you seen just through your journey um you look at young folks and you've you know we've you've done a lot on masculinity you've talked about you know we're we talk so much about telling boys what not to be we don't talk about what they should be um and there's the andrew tates of the world that infamously sort of filled that void and and we've seen that weaponized with trump etc and you see that 18 19 year old you see your own uh son.

Speaker 41 Where are we in terms of the generational shift on all of this? Even in the distinction you just made around campaigning versus governing and the relationship to Epstein and that. But

Speaker 41 do you see any generational

Speaker 41 changes underway? Do you see any hope in that distinction, young versus old?

Speaker 41 New versus, you know, what's.

Speaker 23 I mean, I do.

Speaker 23 I think your podcast with Richard Reeves, I thought, was great.

Speaker 23 And I think there's a lot of people talking really in depth about this crisis of masculinity that's happening right now, which I'm seeing echoed in all of the places that I go to.

Speaker 23 I did a special recently that was looking at sort of the new MAGA movement.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 where I found hope was sort of in a surprising place. I went to a Turning Points event.
I went to a UFC event.

Speaker 23 And I think I was, in my mind,

Speaker 23 I think especially at like the Turning Points Texas AM event I was expecting maybe the most extreme of the MAGA movement to be to be echoed in these 18 year olds and when I went down down there and talked to the students I think what I was surprised by they were conservative

Speaker 23 most of them also very very religious

Speaker 23 but when I talked to them about like topics they didn't They didn't care about the culture war stuff.

Speaker 23 Now, it doesn't mean Charlie Kirk, who is 100 feet away, who I know you've spoken to as well, like he will get on that culture war stuff and he wants to talk about that stuff.

Speaker 23 And it doesn't mean that these students won't hear that and won't glom onto it, but it wasn't top of mind for folks. And

Speaker 23 I naively assumed a cruelty that did not exist in the 18-year-olds that I talked to. I thought when we talked about deportations that they would chomp on the bit.
I thought when we talked about

Speaker 23 trans athletes or LGBTQ rights that like a wall would go up or cruelty would emerge. And frankly, it didn't happen.
The people I talked to were interested in jobs. They were interested in

Speaker 23 the country, patriotic, talking about like defense, security.

Speaker 23 But

Speaker 23 they didn't care about LGBTQ, not they didn't care about LGBTQ issues as a way to like to fight over or to be upset about. They wanted people to have equal rights and protections.

Speaker 23 And I think it became aware to me. I was like, I'm projecting a cruelty that exists within this movement, that I think it does exist.
I think the Trump administration thrives on the cruelty

Speaker 23 and that as a tool to

Speaker 23 create obedience. But when I talk to the youth, they are looking for attention and also meaning and community.
And I saw Turning Points as an interesting example of like, oh.

Speaker 23 They're like, oh, what is this thing over here? This thing that's popular online? Oh, online, the place that everybody either becomes an influencer or doesn't.

Speaker 23 like that, that's the sphere I want to be a part of. Let me go pay attention to that.

Speaker 23 They weren't interested in the cruelty of that message, but they were interested in the performance of that message. They were interested in the popularity of that message.
But at their core,

Speaker 23 these were nice kids who are still forming their own worldview in a kind space. And so when I think of that younger generation,

Speaker 23 I think there is a kindness there

Speaker 23 that is different than the hardened, older MAGA generation that we see right now. And I hope there is space for them to

Speaker 23 find what they care about and do good in this world and not sort of be manipulated by these older generations who want nothing more than to weaponize these points of view and these malleable minds.

Speaker 41 Noran, two final questions.

Speaker 41 I want to go back as we began on redistricting for a different reason, perhaps, and some may think, but I want to pick up just what you said.

Speaker 41 You know, if someone's listening to this, they're saying, okay, we're now in sort of the megasphere. We're talking about the manosphere.

Speaker 41 We're in that zeitgeist, but without the situational awareness, that a lot of this sort of ideological identity politics, this sort of notion of community and meaning also finds its way on the left as well.

Speaker 41 Not denying that. What, you know, in terms of that, to the extent that does exist and one has to stipulate it does.

Speaker 41 What have you learned about MAGA? We talked about reputation. We talked about that sense of that broader sense of community, what Trump has provided people in that space.

Speaker 41 Any prescription for Democrats? Any prescription for my party that's struggling? I mean, you know, the Wall Street Journal, Lois, you know, I mean, you know, there's no doubt.

Speaker 41 You look at the polling on the Democratic Party.

Speaker 41 Some don't like it referred to as toxic, but it's toxic for a lot of people.

Speaker 41 People sort of immediately are moving away from it.

Speaker 41 What's your over-under in terms of what we can do differently or better? Are there lessons that we can learn from the MAGA movement, dare I say, or suggest,

Speaker 41 from the experiences you've had in those 100 rallies, 90 to 100 rallies with humility and grace

Speaker 41 that I think a party that is out of power needs? Yeah, I mean, I think

Speaker 23 there's functional things, which is like meeting people where they are.

Speaker 23 And I think like literally we joke about this, but it is podcast, the internet, like understand the conversations where you need to have those conversations.

Speaker 23 I think that's like, that's, that's baseline. But a big part of what I see a younger generation connecting to

Speaker 23 is authenticity. And

Speaker 23 it feels, it took me a while to see what was authentic about Donald Trump. In so many ways, a very inauthentic human being who's constantly projecting things that are untrue.

Speaker 23 But the feeling of Donald Trump

Speaker 23 is one that I think is received as authentic for so many people there. He feels like, if not a truth teller, somebody who says it like it is, who's not beholden to other things.

Speaker 23 Again, the veracity of that, I don't stand for, but I do see people like, oh, they don't see him as a politician. The way they connect with him is on an authentic space.

Speaker 23 And I do, when I hear the Democratic Party talk about, you know, who is who are the next faces and how do we do this? And I know you're a part of that conversation.

Speaker 23 The AOCs are part of the conversation. In New York, Mom Dani is such an interesting part of the conversation right now where that on a local level was really fascinating to watch.

Speaker 23 Like all the prognosticators said like, oh, this isn't how New York works. This isn't how politics works.

Speaker 23 But then there's this guy who's like, ah, I want to talk about stuff that I think is important, which is like jobs and people are hurting. Jobs, people are hurting.

Speaker 23 How can we give them something to look forward to? And I know how to do that in a way that doesn't feel political. It feels authentic.

Speaker 23 And that broke through in a way that I think a lot of New Yorkers are like, huh, everybody told us this wouldn't break through.

Speaker 23 I think this next wave of Democratic leadership and this party needs to needs to, one, know,

Speaker 23 people want action and they want people who authentically want to make change.

Speaker 23 I don't know how, like, I do think what the Republican Party has done so well is create a party of like pointing at them and they are the problems.

Speaker 23 And I think you're seeing now like, what can they solve in governing? Governing is hard. I don't need to tell you that.

Speaker 23 I understand the difficulties within it all

Speaker 23 and that how slow it is. But I think big action by Democrats to really go after those core issues of

Speaker 23 health and of jobs by somebody who feels like they're talking man on man with the Democratic populace. I feel like that's where it's going to live.

Speaker 23 And so much of the party I hear talking about like, are we too left? Are we too moderate? Are we this way or this way? I'm like, that gets in the way. Like

Speaker 23 you need to be a person.

Speaker 23 Like right now,

Speaker 23 all of these kids, these younger generations, they are staring at phones with a person that they feel connected to who tells them to buy this lipstick. They tell them to vote this way.

Speaker 23 They tell them this is cool or this is not cool. And they listen.
You need to be an authentic person who can communicate.

Speaker 23 And that's why it can look like Bernie Sanders or it could look like AOC, two very different people of different generations, but who feel authentic to an audience.

Speaker 23 It's like, I think that message has to feel authentic, be authentic, and be one of like, of change. Because people feel so scared right now and so nervous right now.

Speaker 23 Like this idea of who has a vision for change that I can believe and trust. I think that's what people want, everybody.

Speaker 23 And even on the right, where it cracks in the MAGA movement, it's like, tell me that you see a way that this can be better and bigger and fairer.

Speaker 23 I think that is a populist message that like the Dems can

Speaker 23 own.

Speaker 41 I want to end there, but I want to get to redistricting because the tactics of that and what Donald Trump, I mean, he was on CNBC today and he was asked about the Texas redistricting and he said

Speaker 41 that

Speaker 41 he's earned the right to have those five seats. I mean, it's analogous to the hour-long phone call with the Secretary of State in Georgia, find me 11,000, however many, 12,000 votes.

Speaker 41 Now he says to Greg Abbott, the governor of Texas, find me five seats. And he said, I won Texas overwhelmingly.
So those are my seats.

Speaker 41 And in order to make everything else possible to have that conversation about health care and about affordability and about being able to even introduce yourself as the authentic self.

Speaker 41 When we're rigging a system or changing the game

Speaker 41 mid-census in this case, that's pretty damn alarming. You were there on January 6th.

Speaker 41 Now, this guy realizes in 18 months he may have some

Speaker 41 oversight with a different majority, the Democratic majority in Congress, in the House, in particular.

Speaker 41 And so he wants to rewrite the rules. What is your sense of that in relationship to everything else? And what does it mean to you?

Speaker 41 Is it about power, dominance, and aggression? Is it the brand MAGA?

Speaker 41 Is it about strength versus weakness? You know, sort of that framework?

Speaker 41 Is that a paradigm that's, you know, that you've observed, Democrats, Republicans, what MAGA, what Trump represents? What does it redistricting mean at this moment?

Speaker 41 From your perspective?

Speaker 23 I mean,

Speaker 23 honestly, I think this moment is so fascinating.

Speaker 23 I'm honored to get to talk to you about it in this time we are in because I'm reading this new right now.

Speaker 23 It's such an obvious power grab, and it's scary, it's authoritarian,

Speaker 23 it's anti-democratic.

Speaker 23 And to me, where I see it in a MAGA movement is it will be lauded as a success.

Speaker 23 I do think we talk about the cruelty that is inherent there, but I think so much a part of this identity is in making other people pay. That like to the victor go the spoils.

Speaker 23 That's been Trump's brand forever. Like it's, it's capitalism 101.
It's like, I get this because I work the hardest. Screw you, work a little bit harder.

Speaker 23 And so I feel like that is like a new framing device for democracy, which I wish, I, I, I, I wish we were able to push back against that.

Speaker 23 And so you have what you guys are talking about doing here, too, which

Speaker 23 I, I, I will say, I have like

Speaker 23 I don't know how to feel about it. I am so scared as to what Trump is doing.
And it is so unfair and so undemocratic and just a power grab. And on one hand, I'm like,

Speaker 23 I want to see Democratic governors and Democrats fight back, fight fire with fire. I think that is what there is a real yearning for.

Speaker 23 And at the same time, I am scared to run into like an undemocratic arms race. And

Speaker 23 so I don't know, like,

Speaker 23 even walking into this podcast, I'm like, man,

Speaker 23 I respect that something that you do well is I think you step up to the plate with Donald Trump and you punch a bully in their chin.

Speaker 23 And I think that is a big part of where the Democratic base can find success in this movement. And yet I worry about like

Speaker 23 where are the norms that we have to keep in place and where are the norms that we have to throw out in order to be in a place where norms can exist.

Speaker 41 Well said.

Speaker 41 I mean, it's, and as someone that supported independent redistricting as an elected official when it first was presented to the voters of California, it took me a little bit to get on the other side of this.

Speaker 41 But now I'm realizing, to your point, the existential nature of this moment. And the other side, there are no rules.

Speaker 41 They're assassins in this respect, in terms of the approach they take to power and to ultimately control.

Speaker 41 And so, you know, we're not only going to fight fire with fire, we're going to punch above our weight. California is a size of 21 state populations combined.
We have an independent redistricting.

Speaker 41 We have not gerrymandered our state. No state

Speaker 41 has more

Speaker 41 to give to this contribution of the counteroffensive than the state of California.

Speaker 41 So we'll neuter what they're doing in Texas, but we'll one-up that because we'll take some of the more competitive districts and they'll be less competitive as a consequence.

Speaker 41 And to your point, it's an arms race. I'm not naive about that.

Speaker 41 But it's also, you know, we're a race to 250.

Speaker 41 Next year is the founding, the celebration of the founding fathers and the vision that the founding fathers laid out, the best of Roman Republic, Greek democracy, system of checks and balances, the rule of law, popular sovereignty.

Speaker 41 It's all,

Speaker 41 all at risk. And so forgive me for belaboring the point, but I think the point you're making is a difficult one is how you reconcile those two things.
You want to do the right thing.

Speaker 41 You want to sort of aspire to

Speaker 41 the better angels, but we also have to be accountable to this moment.

Speaker 23 And to be clear, you think we're going to make it to 250?

Speaker 41 We have no choice, but of course we're going to. What the hell?

Speaker 23 I'm just checking.

Speaker 23 I don't know. I'm looking at property in Montreal, just trying to get a sense of like, okay, so you think two people get worried about singularity and AI.
So you're, I guess,

Speaker 23 everything, governor, everything. Oh, my gosh, it's also scary.

Speaker 41 Yeah, we didn't even get to AI, thank God. But

Speaker 41 enough of the anxiety. Hey, Jordan, thank you, man.

Speaker 41 This was a great, not good, this was a great conversation.

Speaker 41 It was. And you know what? You know, keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 23 But also,

Speaker 41 you know, if

Speaker 41 you need another job, if these sons of bitches figure out a way to cancel the daily show and try to cancel you, you're going to be in the political consulting business soon.

Speaker 41 So you're fine, my friend.

Speaker 23 Are you offering me one of these Congress seats? Is that what you're doing?

Speaker 23 Is that what it is? Oh, I know.

Speaker 41 That's been your dream in life. That's been your aspiration.
Because you do a little improv on the House floor.

Speaker 41 Then you get gnarly cheat.

Speaker 41 What's her name? Marjorie Taylor Greene every day of the week.

Speaker 23 I was going to say,

Speaker 23 what a lovely workplace to walk into.

Speaker 41 Jesus. And we didn't even get to Matt Gates to be continued.

Speaker 23 Oh my gosh. Yes.
Well, I got plenty of stories. So have me on for round two.

Speaker 23 This was truly a delight. I appreciate it.

Speaker 41 I appreciate it. Thanks so much, man.
That was great.

Speaker 23 Thank you, bro.

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