Extended Conversation: How To Live Forever With Dr. Sanjay Gupta

Speaker 1 This is an iHeart podcast.

Speaker 2 Tired of spills and stains on your sofa? Wash away your worries with Anibay. Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out where designer quality meets budget-friendly prices.

Speaker 2 That's right, sofas start at just $699.

Speaker 2 Enjoy a no-risk experience with pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and changeable slip covers made with performance fabric.

Speaker 2 Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing. The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity, and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime.

Speaker 2 Shop washable sofas.com for early Black Friday savings up to 60% off site-wide, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee. If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund.

Speaker 2 No return shipping or restocking fees, every penny back. Upgrade now at washablesofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 3 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 7 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too-Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 8 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 10 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 6 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 12 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 14 Lowe's gets it.

Speaker 15 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 18 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 19 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 18 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 14 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 20 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 1 It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte.
Get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha.

Speaker 1 Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

Speaker 21 Looking for a screen-free way to spark your child's imagination? The Story Dream Machine is a magical storytelling device with simple, kid-friendly controls.

Speaker 21 It projects words while a narrator reads aloud, helping build early reading skills and word recognition. With colorful lights and sound effects, each story unfolds like a dream.

Speaker 21 And when it's time to wind down, it doubles as a white noise nightlight. Available at Amazon, Target, Costco, Walmart, and LittleTykes.com.
Bring story time to life with the Story Dream Machine.

Speaker 22 This is Gavin Newsom,

Speaker 22 and we continue with Dr. Gupta.

Speaker 22 I want to talk in, Sanjay, because you've been, I mean, you've been one of the great thought leaders and written so much about longevity.

Speaker 22 And you talk about nutrition and health and some of the remarkable breakthroughs that are just, they seem just shockingly common sense.

Speaker 22 I mean, just sort of foundational, just leading with common sense, eating well, sleeping well, hydrating,

Speaker 22 you know, socialization, et cetera.

Speaker 22 But you've been writing particularly about some breakthroughs and some examples of real successes as it relates to longevity and wellness that give, I think, distill a sense of well-being, at least to people like me, that with an aging grain population, that we should be more optimistic than I think some of us have painted the future.

Speaker 23 With what we know now,

Speaker 23 not any new medical breakthrough or some big development. I think we could greatly, greatly expand life expectancy.
And health span.

Speaker 23 That's a term I'm sure you've heard, but health span versus lifespan,

Speaker 23 the number of really functional years you have left.

Speaker 23 I think the data has become very compelling on this.

Speaker 23 I think anecdotally, we've known this for a while by looking at other countries around the world and saying they spend a lot less, they do pretty simple things, they walk to, you know, their meet friends as opposed to driving, they eat right, they eat fresh foods, healthier foods, they they sleep well.

Speaker 23 Some of the healthiest communities in the world have

Speaker 23 either non-existent healthcare systems or very, very small health care systems. So,

Speaker 23 and that's that's heart disease, that's dementia, that's diabetes, all at a fraction of the rates that we have in the United States. They don't have anything that we don't have.

Speaker 23 It's happening to us is not because of what we're not doing, it's because of how we have, what we are doing to our bodies. But I'll tell you something interesting, Governor.

Speaker 23 If you talk about longevity overall or aging sort of as a construct,

Speaker 23 what scientists will say, including Eric Topol, who you may know in your state,

Speaker 23 aging is really made up of several different things. It's not just revolutions of planets.

Speaker 23 It's how well your immune system is working, how much inflammation you have, how much something that you have known as senescence, how many cells that are in a senescent stage.

Speaker 23 There's seven different things like this that you can sort of think about that actually make up aging, that will determine your health span,

Speaker 23 far more important than your genetics.

Speaker 23 We can control many of those things.

Speaker 23 We can improve our immune function, we can decrease our inflammation, we can decrease senescence, and there's all these different ways to do it now that have great data behind that.

Speaker 23 There are certain medications, and I'm not hocking any medications here, but like something like metformin even, which is something that's gotten a lot of attention.

Speaker 23 Nils Berzeli, who's a longevity researcher out of Sinai, will say metformin is probably the closest thing we have to targeting all these different cardinal issues of aging, which I find really, really interesting.

Speaker 23 I wouldn't call it a breakthrough.

Speaker 23 I would call it a recognition of what aging really is, what is really happening to the human body, especially as we get older, why our function decreases, and what can be done about it.

Speaker 23 You're quite right. It comes down to the big three, how we nourish ourselves, how we move, and how we rest.

Speaker 23 But, you know, there's more nuance to it now based on a lot of the data people like Eric and Nils are collecting.

Speaker 22 And at the core, I mean,

Speaker 22 you've written about, I mean, when it comes to inflammation, obviously sugars, issues around dairy,

Speaker 22 meats. I mean, what's, I mean,

Speaker 22 are you solidified in that sort of core sort of understanding that limiting, obviously, sugars seems to make a lot of sense. I don't know if everybody's familiar with dairy as a component concern.

Speaker 22 And then we can have the great meat debate as well.

Speaker 22 But are these sort of, is these foundational in terms of addressing particularly issues around Alzheimer's and dementia?

Speaker 22 I mean, I know Dean Ornish is out here in Sausalito, California has been pushing a lot in that space.

Speaker 22 What's your sense on the basis of all your research and work?

Speaker 23 Well, sugar I'd put into its own category, like I was alluding to.

Speaker 23 Sugar is toxic. I mean, I did a piece for 60 Minutes years ago called The Toxic Truth, and it was all about sugar.
And it is remarkable to me what sugar does to the body.

Speaker 23 Our bodies just don't know how to process the amount of sugar that we eat nowadays. It basically hits our liver like a tsunami.

Speaker 23 And I think what's surprising to people is that because the body can't handle all that sugar, it churns out these byproducts, which are typically what are called LDL particles, low-density lipoprotein particles.

Speaker 23 You would typically think my LDL is going to go up because I ate a cheeseburger, which is true, but it might go up even more from a sugary drink. That's how toxic sugar can be to the body.

Speaker 23 So sugar I'd almost put into its own category. But I think with regard to the other things, dairy and even meat, I do eat meat.
I'm not a total vegetarian.

Speaker 23 I hope Dean's not listening because he's, you know, he's vegan, but.

Speaker 23 I think it really has to do with how those foods are processed. It's all the other junk that's added to a lot of those foods that I think make them really problematic and increase inflammation.

Speaker 23 What Dean was able to show,

Speaker 23 and I thought it was fascinating, was that going on a vegan diet was greatly associated with decreasing inflammation in the body and in the brain, and

Speaker 23 it could stall and potentially reverse Alzheimer's disease.

Speaker 23 That was a big deal. I mean, people once you get diagnosed with dementia, it is a downward spiral from there on out.

Speaker 23 He was able to show that you could at least stall it, if not reverse it, by simply changing diet and increasing activity as well. But diet was the big thing.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 we've anecdotally sort of known this to be true, but I think he was really able to show this. And I think

Speaker 23 that's certainly made me reconsider my eating. So I've cut back on meat, but you know,

Speaker 23 I got three teenagers.

Speaker 23 You got to balance your life with what you know. I mean, if we were going to to live forever, Kevin, if that was a, can I call you Kevin, by the way?

Speaker 22 Please do.

Speaker 23 If there was a possibility we could live forever, that immortality was attainable, I might live my life differently.

Speaker 23 But I think you got to balance your joy with your lifestyle. And

Speaker 23 I'm a very healthy guy. I exercise every day intensely, but also take long walks with my wife and my dogs and stuff like that.
So I have more moderate activity as well. Eat healthily.

Speaker 23 Don't eat sugar at all. Don't drink alcohol.
Alcohol is terrible. I mean,

Speaker 23 why do we,

Speaker 23 anyways, but the

Speaker 22 I'm in the wine business, you're talking to the wrong guy, but I completely appreciate your point.

Speaker 23 My guess is when you drink wine, and I, and I have, I have drank wine and I can appreciate its, it's virtues, but do you not, do you not get a terrible night's sleep?

Speaker 22 I mean, I track my sleep now.

Speaker 22 If I have a this works against my personal interests, so I'm not going to say no.

Speaker 22 I wouldn't have got sugar. But of course, there's a byproduct of the wine as well.
But by the way, are you a coffee drinker? Everybody's got, is it mushroom coffee?

Speaker 22 People are in, what's going on with coffee? Should I be drinking coffee?

Speaker 23 Yeah, I didn't know about the mushroom coffee, but I.

Speaker 22 I don't know. Everyone's saying you should try mushroom coffee.
I don't know. I'm asking you.

Speaker 23 I like coffee. So I, you know, it's a funny, funny thing is I really did not drink coffee up until a few years ago.
And it was for no particular reason other than I just didn't like the taste of it.

Speaker 23 I, I, um, it was unusual because most surgical residents and medical students, they, they start drinking coffee, you know, sort of, you know, early 20s and they becomes part of their lifestyle.

Speaker 23 I just never liked it.

Speaker 23 Um, but during the pandemic, actually, is when I started drinking coffee, I was waking up at 4:30 in the morning every day and working until 11:30 at night, you know, for a couple years in a row.

Speaker 23 And my wife actually introduced me to this coffee. I don't know if I were allowed to talk about brands, but I really like this.
It's called Purity Coffee. And it's pure coffee.

Speaker 23 It's just, it's, it's got no, none of the additives that we were talking about. It's, it's

Speaker 23 pesticide free. And to me, it tasted really clean.
When I drank coffee in the past, it always felt like I could almost taste the aftertaste to it. And this was just a really good coffee.

Speaker 23 And then I started really doing a deep dive into coffee. And I think, you know,

Speaker 23 it's associated with all these different health health benefits:

Speaker 23 cardiac, dementia, inflammation overall. So I drink a cup a day, sometimes two cups a day.
And I think it's, I think it's been really good for me.

Speaker 22 All right. Well, I think, I mean, as the guy who's got a few cups behind him, in front of him, on the side.

Speaker 23 Is it just black coffee or what are you drinking?

Speaker 22 It's just black coffee. No, I'm not adding any of that cream, any of that nonsense.
Don't add that.

Speaker 23 And it takes a little bit to get used to the taste, I think, of just the black coffee.

Speaker 22 But once it's there, once you're there on the other side, you can hold strong

Speaker 24 if you have ever worried about the safety of your home you need to hear this right now simply safe is giving this is gavin newsom listeners early access to their black friday sale here's why simply safe is the only security system you should trust to keep your home safe Typical security systems don't really prevent someone from entering your home.

Speaker 24 They just react once someone is already inside. Real security stops a crime before it even starts.
That's why over 4 million Americans trust SimplySafe.

Speaker 24 SimplySafe takes action before a criminal gets into your home. The moment someone steps onto your property, AI security cameras identify the threat and alert SimplySafe's live agents.

Speaker 24 Agents take action immediately, confronting the criminal and if they need to, triggering sirens and dispatching the police. SimplySafe is like having your own personal security guard.

Speaker 24 And right now, you can take 60% off any new system with early access to Simply Safe's Black Friday sale at simply safe.com/slash Gavin. That's simply safe.com/slash Gavin for 60% off.

Speaker 24 There's no safe like Simply Safe.

Speaker 2 There's nothing like sinking into luxury. Anibay sofas combine ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

Speaker 2 Anibay has designed the only fully machine washable sofa from top to bottom. The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Speaker 2 Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa. With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Speaker 2 Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anibay has you covered. Visit washable sofas.com to upgrade your home.

Speaker 2 Sofas started just $699 and right now, get early access to Black Friday savings, up to 60% off store-wide with a 30-day money-back guarantee. Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Speaker 21 Add a little

Speaker 2 to your life. Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 12 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 14 Loece gets it.

Speaker 15 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 18 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the the holidays.

Speaker 19 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 18 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 14 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 20 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 1 It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte.
Get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha.

Speaker 1 Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 3 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 7 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchlin fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 8 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 10 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 6 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 22 How worried should I be about this fluoride movement now? We're seeing, I'm in Utah, Florida. There's big debates in Louisiana, other states to take fluoride out of the water.

Speaker 22 Where did this even come from?

Speaker 22 How important is it? I read in the past one of the great success stories in the last half century in terms of just, you know,

Speaker 22 give me your over-under on fluoride.

Speaker 23 Yeah, well, see, this is what I appreciate about podcasts like this, because there's a nuance to this, and you can actually get into the nuance a bit.

Speaker 23 Fluoride in really high doses can be problematic.

Speaker 23 It can cause something known as skeletal fluorosis. I'm talking about ingested fluoride.
So you're taking it into your body through, usually through water.

Speaker 23 It can cause skeletal fluorosis, which can make your bones and your skeleton weak. It can cause dental fluorosis.

Speaker 23 I don't know if you've ever seen Governor people who have white streaks in their teeth. Yeah.
Sometimes that is a dental fluorosis. That's an indication of high fluoride levels.

Speaker 23 And I think most recently and interestingly, there's been concerns about neurotoxicity.

Speaker 23 There were studies done, all of them outside this country where fluoride levels are much higher than the United States, where they showed that moms, for example, during pregnancy, if they had high fluoride exposure, their kids later in life, it was associated with a lower IQ.

Speaker 23 So that was obviously concerning. These are hard studies to do and there was some, you know,

Speaker 23 getting the methods right on these studies is challenging, but I think there was enough of a concern about that for people to really start paying attention. To give you a little bit of context,

Speaker 23 the levels that we're talking about are at least twice as high as the levels in the drinking water in the United States.

Speaker 23 So quite a bit higher. And in medicine, we always use this phrase, the dose makes the poison.

Speaker 23 Things in any dose, just about anything in a high enough dose could potentially be problematic. But

Speaker 23 it definitely gets people's attention. What I would say when you talk about the fact that it's touted as one of the greatest public health achievements of the last century, I saw that as well.

Speaker 23 And I think that there's a kernel of truth to that, but the nuance is that most of the data that exists on the benefits of fluoride exists before 1975.

Speaker 23 1975 was a timeframe when dental care became much more widely available and fluoridated toothpaste.

Speaker 23 So prior to that, fluoridating the water probably had an incrementally a much bigger benefit than it does today.

Speaker 23 So

Speaker 23 it doesn't provide as much benefit. I think it's low risk because the levels don't get as high as they used to.

Speaker 23 They don't get as high in the United States, I should say, as they do in other countries. But it's also lower reward.
So fluoride today, lower risk, lower reward than it used to be.

Speaker 23 Iceland does not fluoridate their water. England does not fluoridate their water.
Israel does not fluoridate their water. In Iceland, the kids all do twice a month fluoride rinses.

Speaker 23 In England, interestingly, they fluoridate milk. So it's not water.
So you're fluoridating milk.

Speaker 23 They're like, we don't want to put it in the water supply, but kids, you know, who drink milk, they should still get their fluoride. That was sort of their thinking.

Speaker 23 Calgary in Canada, they stopped fluoridating their water back in 2011, I believe, but then brought it back. because cavity rates went up.

Speaker 23 And there was a new study that said in the United States, how much of an impact would it have to to take fluoride out of the water?

Speaker 23 And they said it could potentially be, you know, 25 million more cavities within the next five years, 50 million cavities within the next 10 years.

Speaker 23 So, you know, I think we need better dental care overall. And this is almost a policy discussion.
I think people, it's hard to get dental care. It's hard to get dental coverage.

Speaker 23 But I think if we had fluoride rinses, if kids got better dental care, then I think the incremental benefit of fluoride goes down even more.

Speaker 23 Secretary Kennedy's been talking about fluoride for a long time, heavy metals in general, but fluoride in particular for a long time.

Speaker 23 And, you know, as with these other things we're talking about, there's a nuance to it. I don't think it's as big a public health issue now as it was 50 years ago, 60 years ago,

Speaker 23 and we can even model how much of an impact it would have. But I think it really speaks to the fact that we need better dental care overall.

Speaker 22 Boy, I really appreciate the nuance of the response. And just look, it goes to, I think, our frustration just generally as consumers and as people that

Speaker 22 just

Speaker 22 are so desperate just for the facts and a deeper understanding. And you talked earlier about the politics and these binaries and how everything is seen through a political lens.

Speaker 22 Just the larger issue of misinformation. I mean, you know, obviously COVID seemed to expose a lot of that stress and anxiety.

Speaker 22 And, you know, obviously our politics has been, I think, profoundly shaped sort of post-COVID framework.

Speaker 22 And I think in some respects, significantly so, obviously, with RFK as HHS secretary in terms of healthcare policy today. What's your, you know, as you reflect back on, you know, your

Speaker 22 own

Speaker 22 experience

Speaker 22 living through, sort of helping us all through.

Speaker 22 the pandemic experience and COVID, how do we get back to the kind of platform that we need in order to row in the same direction as a country to be prepared again, my gosh, for another novel virus moving forward where we're not at each other's throats, we're not talking down to each other, past each other.

Speaker 22 Help, give us a sense of how we get back into the trust and truth space.

Speaker 23 You know,

Speaker 23 I think it's tough for sure. And as a medical reporter, you know, I think I have a really front row seat to how this has all sort of unfolded.

Speaker 23 I'd say one thing just for historical reference is that if you go back and you look at the 1918 flu pandemic, that was a time when obviously we didn't have cell phones, social media, you know, rapid sort of spread of information, but there was still a lot of distrust overall of basic public health recommendations.

Speaker 23 There was a fair that was supposed to take place, I believe, in St. Louis.
And or maybe in Philadelphia. Philadelphia and St.
Louis were the two cities.

Speaker 23 One city said, how can we possibly do a big fair like this in the middle middle of a pandemic?

Speaker 23 And the other city said, We don't think it's a big deal. We'll do the fair.
So they took it on, and they had 12 times the rate of flu deaths as the city that chose not to do it.

Speaker 23 Point being that there has been this skepticism that I think exists just in human nature forever, you know. And I'll go so far as to say this, Governor,

Speaker 23 maybe some of that skepticism is necessary. You know,

Speaker 23 I think that, you know, if we look at human beings like organisms,

Speaker 23 some people just have their antennas raised really, really high.

Speaker 23 And I think when your antennas raised really, really high,

Speaker 23 two things happen. You see things that aren't there.
You just see things blurry off in the distance and you think that there's an attack coming and it's not coming.

Speaker 23 But on the other hand, sometimes you see things before everyone else does as well.

Speaker 23 And so I think there are people whose antennas are raised really high who are just concerned citizens.

Speaker 23 I think there are, you know, shit starters who sort sort of fall into that category as well, but not all of them.

Speaker 23 It's a heterogeneous group of people who are going to be resistant to basic public health measures.

Speaker 23 It's a much more diverse group of people than I think I realize. That's one thing.
I think with regard to misinformation and even disinformation, purposeful misinformation,

Speaker 23 I think my largest concern right now is that we're getting to the point,

Speaker 23 and I hope it changes, and optimist i'm an optimist i think it will change but i think right now we're at a point where nobody believes anything yeah

Speaker 23 i i i uh i was talking to my my youngest daughter um this about a year year and a half ago and i was very close to senator john mccain and she showed me some meme on tick tock or instagram or something about john mccain she knew that we were close and and and um especially after he had his brain tumor and things

Speaker 23 he and and and this was a funny meme but it somehow suggested that he was alive and that his whole death was a hoax, right? Crazy, crazy stuff. And I said, hey, Soleil, okay, funny, right?

Speaker 23 But you know, that's not true, right?

Speaker 23 And she said, yeah, it's here on Instagram, whatever. And I said, yeah, but you know, it's not true.

Speaker 23 And she said to me, governor, she said, I don't think any of this stuff is true, dad.

Speaker 23 And it really got me thinking, like, what happens to a generation of people that grow up without a locus of trust? I mean, forget who they trust. I, you know, they should trust you.

Speaker 23 They should trust me. They should trust experts.
I think I really do believe that.

Speaker 23 But maybe they don't trust anybody. And I think unless you can touch somebody, unless you know somebody personally,

Speaker 23 you don't really trust them anymore, which I think is

Speaker 23 really problematic. And I think that's where we're headed.
It starts to hyper-localize suspicion of everybody. And I think that's where we're headed.

Speaker 23 So I think for me, you know, as a reporter, instead of constantly combating misinformation, which is like playing whack-a-mole

Speaker 23 all day long, just continuing to try and put out good information and explain things in a way that is accessible to people and

Speaker 23 leans into the nuance and the uncertainty of things. As a country,

Speaker 23 if the question you're asking is about preparing for the next pandemic, I would say the precautionary principle is important.

Speaker 23 And

Speaker 23 that is how we do many things in our country. We have more than a dozen aircraft carriers right now that are circumnavigating the globe, and they're keeping us safe.

Speaker 23 We don't pay a lot of attention to that. It's not something we have in the forefront of our minds, but they're out there basically displaying the precautionary principle.

Speaker 23 A virus is a national security threat. We saw what it did to our country.

Speaker 23 If we're able to apply the precautionary principle at a policy level, so things just go into effect, as opposed to Seattle's doing this, and New York is doing this and Alabama is doing this and Florida's saying, we're not going going to do any of that.

Speaker 23 And it was just a mess. Instead, if we actually applied the precautionary principle as a country, treated it as a national security threat, which it is, I think we'd be much better prepared.

Speaker 23 But, you know, right now we're in a position where you have people who believe COVID was a hoax, the entire thing. So we have some work to do, I think, before we get there.

Speaker 22 Because I think, you know, there were obviously mistakes we did make.

Speaker 22 There was lessons that we do need to learn. And there were decisions that need to be reconciled going forward.

Speaker 22 And I think if we're in denial about that, then we're not going to build that level of trust moving forward for those that feel very, very differently.

Speaker 23 No question. And I think, you know, one thing that I think was a real learning point, I think, as doctors, if we're

Speaker 23 recommending, I was in the operating room all day yesterday, you know, taking out brain tumors and doing things like that.

Speaker 23 We know that it leaves a toll on people to do that, to recommend chemotherapy. We know the impact of that on their lives.

Speaker 23 We think that the benefit is that it could cure their cancer, but we know it's going to be tough sledding for them for a while. How do you convey that at a societal level?

Speaker 23 You know, closing schools, the impact of that, you know, that was tough on my kids, you know, so

Speaker 23 to really, I think, be very mindful of

Speaker 23 the impact. I'm not saying the decisions are wrong, but being really mindful of the impact of those decisions on people, it's tough.

Speaker 23 You know, as doctors, I think we're a little bit more trained toward it because we have to look at risk-reward for everything.

Speaker 23 But I think assessing risk and balancing that reward as a country is hard. And I think that gets back to where we started: this precautionary principle.
We don't know. Let's be cautious.

Speaker 23 Let's be careful. Let's not accelerate around the blind curves here.
Let's hit the brakes a little bit.

Speaker 23 And I think that's

Speaker 23 still to me that still makes sense.

Speaker 2 Life gets messy. Spills, stains, and kid chaos.
But with Anibay, cleaning up is easy. Our sofas are fully machine washable, inside and out, so you never have to stress about messes again.

Speaker 2 Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind.

Speaker 2 Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers, allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly.

Speaker 2 Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth-friendly and built to last.
That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch.

Speaker 2 Get early access to Black Friday pricing right now. Sofas started just $699.

Speaker 2 Visit washablefas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life. That's washable sofas.com.
Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Speaker 12 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 14 Lowe's gets it.

Speaker 15 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 18 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 19 And don't sweat what gifts to get, dad.

Speaker 18 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 14 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 20 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 1 The holidays are back at Starbucks, so share the season with a peppermint mocha.

Speaker 1 Starbucks signature espresso, velvety mocha, and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 3 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 7 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 8 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 10 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 6 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 21 If you have young kids, you know how important it is to find screen-free activities that actually hold their attention.

Speaker 21 The Story Dream Machine does just that with simple, kid-friendly controls and a magical way of bringing stories to life.

Speaker 21 It projects words while a narrator reads aloud, helping your child develop early reading skills and word recognition.

Speaker 21 The colorful lights and sound effects make every every story feel like an adventure. Kids can follow along, recognize sight words, and build confidence with every tale.

Speaker 21 Parents love how easy it is to swap stories and customize the experience for different ages.

Speaker 21 And when the story's over, it transforms into a white noise nightlight to help your child drift off to sleep. You can collect a growing library of stories, including many you loved as a kid.

Speaker 21 It's a bedtime game changer and a daytime learning tool all in one. Find the Story Dream Machine at Amazon, Target, Costco, Walmart, and littletyks.com.

Speaker 21 Bring story time to life with the story dream machine.

Speaker 22 Final question. I'm curious, you know,

Speaker 22 speaking of sense, speaking of risk, speaking of trust,

Speaker 22 where are we to make sense of AI and medicine?

Speaker 22 We're seeing just runaway costs in healthcare. It seems like every other industry has found efficiencies.
Every other industry costs seem to go down.

Speaker 22 It seems like more technology is introduced to the healthcare sector. Our costs seem to go up and up and up.
Is AI overhyped in terms of medical expenses?

Speaker 22 Is it over-hyped in terms of research and discovery?

Speaker 22 Is it underhyped as it relates to imaging benefits and just sort of super capacity to address chronic disease and solve for some of life's great evils and cancers?

Speaker 23 I think it's going to be magnificent ultimately, what AI can do for healthcare. It's going to need guardrails,

Speaker 23 but I think even those are

Speaker 23 very trainable. I mean,

Speaker 23 there's great companies, one of them out of California called Open Evidence, where you're already starting to see, like for me, I'll give you an example.

Speaker 23 A guy comes into the office with back pain and leg pain and has got a herniated disc in their lumbar spine, the lower back. Do they get an operation? Do they not get an operation?

Speaker 23 I could ask 10 different spine surgeons and maybe get 11 different answers.

Speaker 23 AI could look at 9 billion pieces of data within a fraction of a second and said, here are 50,000 other people who are just like the person you're describing.

Speaker 23 And here are their various outcomes based on evaluating their medical records and doing this all in a de-identified way.

Speaker 23 My residents are already walking around talking to their phones as they're walking into a patient room to figure out the best approach to

Speaker 23 whatever ails their patient.

Speaker 23 So it's already changing.

Speaker 23 I think I sat on the subcommittee for AI for the National Academy of Medicine, and I think one of the things that really struck me as we were creating these guardrails was this idea that we still have to think of AI from a trust but verify sort of model.

Speaker 23 It's wildly effective at finding breast cancers, for example, on mammograms, but sometimes it errs wildly as well. And these hallucinations, as people call them.

Speaker 23 I think they're already starting to get better about that. I think it's going to, you know, we've been talking about big data, you know, for decades now.

Speaker 23 AI is actually going to be able to make sense of that big data and I think make it valuable for patients. I'll tell you a quick anecdote.

Speaker 23 You know, if you've been to the hospital lately or a clinic and you got a letter from, you know, sort of summarizing your care, it probably was generated by an AI platform.

Speaker 22 That's interesting.

Speaker 23 And most of, and when they blinded blinded these letters and they compared them to actual letters written by doctors or nurses, and then gave them to random people, what they found was that the AI letters were often referred to as more human, the human letters, which I thought was.

Speaker 22 Is that the state of doctors? Is that the quality of

Speaker 24 you know?

Speaker 23 I think if you said to me, hey, you know, my daughter's going to get married, you know, in July, you know, and I'm really excited about that, but you're here for your herniated disc.

Speaker 23 I may have deprioritized that information, whereas an AI platform may have listened to that and said, hey, governor, I hope the wedding went well with your daughter.

Speaker 23 And, you know, just these human touches.

Speaker 23 You had these moments where humans were looking at these AI letters and they were pausing at the moment that they read these human touches.

Speaker 23 And it was almost like humans learning from machines how to be more human, I think.

Speaker 23 So

Speaker 23 I'm bullish on AI. I think, and, you know,

Speaker 23 I think one thing about new technologies is that there's always a disparity in terms of haves and have-nots when they first come out.

Speaker 23 Before mammography, black women and white women had similar rates of breast cancer. After mammography, breast cancer rates went down overall, but much more so for white women than black women.

Speaker 23 We see those disparities with AI already. So we have to address disparities, make sure this is very available and accessible to people.
But I think it's going to change healthcare.

Speaker 23 We're going to come up with new treatments and the right clinical decision-making much more quickly as a result of AI.

Speaker 22 In 30 years, you're still doing brain surgeries or is a robot doing them?

Speaker 23 No,

Speaker 23 I'm still doing them. You'd be proud.

Speaker 23 You know,

Speaker 23 I say this as a brain surgeon who always carries around a brain with me. I got it right here.

Speaker 23 I don't know that a robot is yet able to fully grapple with three and a half pounds of the most enigmatic tissue in the known universe. I still think humans have to do that.

Speaker 23 Eventually we may get there. But right now, I just think the, you know, the dexterity and sort of the types of operations that we do.

Speaker 23 But look, in cardiac surgery and prostate cancer surgery, you have DaVinci, you have robots that have been doing that stuff for a while.

Speaker 23 We'll get there. I'll be retired, I think, by that point, hopefully.

Speaker 22 I don't know.

Speaker 22 If you keep to your wellness program, you're going to be fine.

Speaker 24 It's got to be like you, Governor.

Speaker 22 Hardly, hardly. I'm going to watch, okay.
I already have my instructions on my meat consumption. And yes, I'll acknowledge.
I'll acknowledge the.

Speaker 23 Can you be in the wine business and not drink so much wine?

Speaker 22 No, I mean, that's an issue. I mean, it's an objective issue.
But I shouldn't be, I can't be promoting, well, maybe I should be promoting my businesses.

Speaker 22 Apparently, that's not an issue anymore in this country. Jesus.

Speaker 23 Hey, can I ask you what's going on with you real quick? Like, what's up after

Speaker 23 Sacramento?

Speaker 22 Well, it's sure as hell ain't going to be medical school. I have no capacity there.

Speaker 22 But

Speaker 22 it's to be determined.

Speaker 22 All of it to be determined. A time of profound uncertainty.
And I'm just trying to, you know, I'm trying not only to not get fined today, but not get arrested tomorrow in the next few months.

Speaker 22 It's crazy what's going on in this country. But I will say, though, on a serious note, just, you know, it's also remarkable how

Speaker 22 just trying to just absorb what's happening with healthcare policy.

Speaker 22 We didn't even get into Medicaid cuts.

Speaker 22 We didn't even get to the broader issues associated with the quote-unquote reorg at HSS

Speaker 22 and all the cuts to, you know, just people out there promoting vaccines, HIV

Speaker 22 issues and treatments. I mean, this is this is a lot going on and it's hard to absorb just 100 plus days in.

Speaker 23 I know. And as a reporter, I mean, just every day there's something new and it changes.
It's so ephemeral, like you get all ready to report on it. An hour later, it's different.

Speaker 23 But, you know, keep fighting the good fight. You know, I think certainly as reporters,

Speaker 23 information matters. Good information matters.
Fewer people are consuming it. You know, we're well aware of that.

Speaker 22 Right.

Speaker 23 Yeah. It doesn't mean we stop trying, you know, keep asking.

Speaker 22 Well, I love what you mean, to your point. I mean, I made the point earlier, but your podcast is fabulous.

Speaker 22 And it's great to see you out there doing, especially with the just those sort of short clips where you're answering those tough questions, but doing with the kind of nuance.

Speaker 22 I thought, and I mean this sincerely, your response on the fluoride is just something we don't hear.

Speaker 22 And it's hard to have a segment that is that comprehensive because it just provides a different level of appreciation for perspective on this.

Speaker 22 It's not just as simple as yes and no, huh?

Speaker 23 It's not.

Speaker 23 And, you know, I'm a dad, you know, I mean, first and foremost, then a husband, but a dad, you know, who think like I do put myself in the position of those people who are the honest skeptics.

Speaker 23 I'm an honest skeptic, you know, most scientists are honest skeptics, I think.

Speaker 23 And I think that, I think that, that helps. You know, would I do that for my kid? Would I do that for my mom? I think it makes it.
There you go.

Speaker 22 No, it's, and by the way, we had the exact, I remember that conversation you mentioned with your wife do we do all of the shots at once yes or do you you face i quite literally had that conversation with four kids four different times uh we concluded all four times let's just get it done but but but that it's a legitimate sensitivity i wouldn't call it quote unquote hesitancy in this sort of weaponized sense but just human and you have to acknowledge that that perspective I don't mock those people at all.

Speaker 23 I mean,

Speaker 23 there are people who mock them.

Speaker 23 That's not going to work. I mean, maybe that's the number one thing about misinformation.
The mocking doesn't, that doesn't work. It just

Speaker 23 creates tribes and politicizes it even further. So try not to do that.

Speaker 22 God bless. Couldn't agree more.
Hey, I really appreciate you taking the time. This was fabulous.
Thanks for all you're doing. Keep doing what you're doing.

Speaker 22 You're a bright light in this darkness.

Speaker 22 And I appreciate you taking the time.

Speaker 23 Means a lot coming from you, Governor. Thank you.

Speaker 4 No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping.

Speaker 3 Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd.

Speaker 7 Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced.

Speaker 3 Take 30% off Lawncome and Touchland fragrances and body mists.

Speaker 8 With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts.

Speaker 10 Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop our early Black Friday event, Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 6 Gifting happens here.

Speaker 25 Skip the stress and shop up to 30% off site-wide during Pura's Black Friday sale.

Speaker 25 Enjoy exclusive discounts on premium, long-lasting single fragrances,

Speaker 25 curated gift sets for everyone on your list, and sleek modern diffusers for home and car.

Speaker 25 Spend less time shopping, more time enjoying.

Speaker 25 Get Get set for gifting season only at Pura.com.

Speaker 12 Want Black Friday prices without the crowds?

Speaker 14 Lowe's gets it.

Speaker 15 Shop their early Black Friday deals and beat the rush.

Speaker 18 $99 is all you need to grab a select seven-foot pre-lit artificial Christmas tree for the holidays.

Speaker 19 And don't sweat what gifts to get, Dad.

Speaker 18 They have up to 40% off select tools and accessories going on now.

Speaker 14 That's how Lowe's celebrates Black Friday early.

Speaker 20 Selection varies by location while supplies last.

Speaker 1 The holidays are back at Starbucks, so share the season with a peppermint mocha.

Speaker 1 Starbucks signature espresso, velvety mocha, and cool peppermint notes topped with whipped cream and dark chocolate curls. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

Speaker 22 Hi, I'm Kate Harmon.

Speaker 26 My dad had Parkinson's disease, and when he passed away last year, I promised I would do everything I could to find a cure. That's why I joined a study from the Michael J.
Fox Foundation.

Speaker 26 They're researching the link between smell loss and brain disease, and they need volunteers. The first step: take a simple scratch and sniff test.

Speaker 26 It's free, mailed to your home, and takes only 15 minutes. Request yours at mysmeltest.org/slash getstarted.
That's mysmelltest.org/slash get started.

Speaker 25 This is an iHeart podcast.