And, This is Speaker Newt Gingrich

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Speaker 28 This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 28 And this is Newt Gingrich.

Speaker 28 I just wanted, if I could, just briefly up top. You sent out a couple of tweets over the last 24 hours, specific to Ukraine, obviously topical issue.

Speaker 28 And I appreciated, candidly, your tweets, which were a little more assertive, pushing back on this notion that somehow time

Speaker 28 is our ally with Putin, that it's time to be a little more muscular, time to call him out. You also called out, I thought, an important fact that's not necessarily part of the discourse.

Speaker 28 He spent 21 years in Sweden. I mean, these guys have a longer version of

Speaker 29 that was actually the Napoleonic Wars.

Speaker 28 Yeah, but

Speaker 29 it was Putin who said, look, we fought Sweden for 21 years. You think I'm going to slow down?

Speaker 28 You think I'm going to slow down? So tell me, I mean, where are you in the over-under? I mean,

Speaker 28 I appreciate your advocacy for Trump, et cetera. But I think, I mean, is the revelation that he's waking up to this new reality that this is not something you could snap your fingers?

Speaker 28 Putin's a different kind of character?

Speaker 29 Well, I think that, first of all,

Speaker 29 he probably shares a lot of people's concern that if you push Putin too hard, you end up

Speaker 29 in a tactical nuclear war and then maybe more. So I think

Speaker 29 there's a dance around Putin that's a little more complicated than just yes or no. On the other hand,

Speaker 29 I think he actually believed from his first term when they'd had a pretty good relationship, although he had sent lethal weapons to Ukraine. He was much tougher than Obama had been.

Speaker 29 But he was pleasant. They had no major fights.
And I think he had in the back of his head that, look,

Speaker 29 we're reasonable. We can talk with each other.
And it's taken him, I think, about five months to realize nothing Putin says matters.

Speaker 29 That what matters is what Putin does. And when he says to you, oh, I'd really like to get to a truce, but by the way, for the next three days, I'm going to bomb civilians.

Speaker 29 After a while, it begins to sink in. You know, it's the opposite of George W.
Bush. I'll never forget the day Bush said that he looked into Putin's eyes and he saw his soul.

Speaker 29 And I knew that was nuts because you can't be a KGB lieutenant colonel and have a soul. So, I mean, the whole concept of, you know, somehow we try to make him a Western figure.
He's not.

Speaker 29 He's a Russian figure. And Russia is a different culture than Western Europe.

Speaker 28 And so the idea of what, secondary oil sanctions, you're advocating for?

Speaker 29 Well, I mean, I'd advocate four big things.

Speaker 29 More weapons faster. And something which the German minister, Prime Minister said today that they'd agreed to, which is use the weapons in Russia.
So you start causing him pain in his territory.

Speaker 28 And this is a longer range weapons, allowing them more range?

Speaker 29 We've begun to give them

Speaker 29 weapons that can reach Russia. And of course, they have lots of, they're going to produce some astonishing number of drones this year.

Speaker 29 I mean, what, I think like a million five or something. I mean,

Speaker 29 people forgot. Ukraine used to be a major industrial center for the Soviet Union.
There's a lot of engineers in Ukraine, a lot of hardworking, smart people, and they now mobilize in fighting.

Speaker 29 I think, so second, you give them permission to fight inside Russia.

Speaker 29 Third, you apply very severe sanctions on particularly sale of oil, which is their only currency that they generate any hard currency with.

Speaker 29 And fourth, I would start picking up all of the ships that are carrying illegal oil

Speaker 29 and just literally let it be known worldwide. You know, if you own a ship and you use it to carry Russian oil, you're going to lose the ship.

Speaker 29 We're going to basically impound it forever.

Speaker 29 And at that point, his method of hiding from the sanctions collapses. His ability to sell within the sanctions collapses.

Speaker 29 And then the other thing I would do, which has some legal implications, but I'm a historian, not a lawyer, so I don't worry about that,

Speaker 29 is I would take the 300 billion that is impounded in the West of Russian money. I give it all to Ukraine.

Speaker 28 What has been the reticence of that?

Speaker 28 I mean, it's interesting that Trump didn't move more aggressively to do that, or is it part of a tactical negotiation?

Speaker 29 The State Department and Treasury will tell you there are all sorts of complicated questions about doing that,

Speaker 29 to which my answer in the Franklin Roosevelt tradition is fine. Let them fight it out in court.
Take the money.

Speaker 28 I appreciate it.

Speaker 28 Well, that's a perfect segue into your new book, Trump's Triumph, because I think a lot of that is sort of reflected sort of this notion of action and moving beyond process and having a more entrepreneurial mindset in terms of governance, et cetera.

Speaker 28 But let's frame this book. This book comes out on June 3rd.
It's your, how many, Mr. Speaker, seriously, how many books have you written?

Speaker 29 Well, I'm told 44.

Speaker 28 And are you, and you're, you're writing all these books. You, you actually write these books.
You don't have ghostwriters.

Speaker 29 I usually have help, but I write all these books.

Speaker 28 And this one, unsurprising that you'd come out with a book about Trump's triumphs,

Speaker 28 but what surprised me a little bit bit is this notion that you place him as one of the five giants up there with Jackson and Jefferson and people like Lincoln and FDR himself.

Speaker 28 I mean, is that your current belief or is that one that reflects?

Speaker 29 I've believed that

Speaker 29 since

Speaker 29 the summer of 2015.

Speaker 29 Because I watched him do two things that were kind of amazing. One was

Speaker 29 tap into the deeply felt emotions of at least half the country.

Speaker 29 And particularly, and this is one of the great ironies that I know you're wrestling with and I've heard you talk about it.

Speaker 29 You know, we're having this switch of which party is the working class party and which party is the elite party.

Speaker 29 Well,

Speaker 29 Trump intuited this. And people forget he had 13 years of doing the apprentice in NBC.
He was a natural salesman and a natural showman. So his instinct was to go right for the blue-collar worker.
And

Speaker 29 he did two things in August of

Speaker 29 2015. Vince Haley, who's now the domestic policy director at that time, was working with us.
And he walked in one day in August and said, you have to see the C-SPAN coverage of Trump in Arizona.

Speaker 29 Because Trump is talking about illegal immigration. And then he invites the father of a young man who's been killed to come up on stage.

Speaker 29 And then Trump steps way back and allows this guy to have like five or ten minutes on stage.

Speaker 29 A willingness to give up the spotlight that most people who watch Trump will think is not likely and that most politicians would find very scary to give control of the microphone to this person.

Speaker 29 And I watched the way the the dynamics of that. And then you may remember the very first debate,

Speaker 29 Cliss and I were watching in our living room. And there was the one where he got in this really nasty, I mean, embarrassingly personal fight.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 28 was this the Megan Kelly?

Speaker 29 It was Megan Kelly. I mean, it was just, it was kind of like, ooh, I don't

Speaker 28 nothing about that.

Speaker 28 Candidly, I thought that was it. I thought it was over.

Speaker 29 They were racing to the bottom, and I think he got there first.

Speaker 29 And which is a line actually that a year later

Speaker 29 somebody would use to describe the fight with Hillary in the last month, that she was going towards the bottom, but we thought we could beat her to it.

Speaker 29 So, anyway, so we watched this debate, and everybody, I mean, Frank once had a focus group, they all thought Trump had lost. Everybody, like, you know, everybody at our level thought Trump had lost.

Speaker 29 But I'm watching these various online things, and he's at 70 70 and 80% out of 16.

Speaker 29 And I'm thinking, wait a second, there's a mismatch here between everyday Americans and the elites on a grand, on a giant scale.

Speaker 29 And at that point, I decided that what you had was a phenomenon who had somehow tapped into a core desire of the American people. that they wanted

Speaker 29 to have a leader who would profoundly change Washington.

Speaker 29 And in Trump, you had somebody who, by personality and by background, was pretty enthusiastic.

Speaker 29 I mean,

Speaker 29 he's always wanted to be a person of consequence.

Speaker 29 And, you know, if you're the guy who breaks up the Rooseveltian system after 90 years, you get to be a person of consequence.

Speaker 29 And so

Speaker 29 it fit what the his what his particular half of the country wants. It fit what I think is a historic necessity as a conservative political leader.

Speaker 29 And it fit his personal desire to have a prize. He wanted, and it's very interesting, think back to this in terms of the politicians you've known.
His slogan wasn't Trump.

Speaker 29 His slogan was make America great again. So he was picking a topic bigger than himself

Speaker 29 within which he could grow.

Speaker 29 And I think after surviving the two assassination attempts, he really personally believes that God spared his life for the purpose of actually achieving that. So

Speaker 29 my point is not whether you like him or dislike him. But if you look at the great change agents, they really are Jefferson,

Speaker 29 Jackson, Lincoln, and FDR. And I think there's a 50-50 chance.
It's not a certainty yet. And I've told him, you know, all he did was he earned a ticket to the dance.

Speaker 29 Now, if he dances well enough and he wins the 26 election,

Speaker 29 then he'll earn a ticket to winning the 28 election. And if they, then, which will probably be J.D.
Vance on our side. And if we get the Trump vice president, he's only 40 years old.

Speaker 29 If we get the Trump vice president on top of the Trump presidency, then he will be in a league with those guys.

Speaker 28 We're going to get to that and we'll get to 26 in a second, but I want to go back a little bit.

Speaker 29 I'm not doing your show.

Speaker 29 28, too. And by the way, I realize you're only thinking about it.

Speaker 28 No, all I want to say is I'm grateful you're here. This is a hell of a thing that the two of us are having this conversation.
So take me back. It's interesting.
You know, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 28 And I appreciate it because we had Frank Luntz on. And I want to talk a little bit about what Frank talked about in a minute, a little bit going back, the contract with America, et cetera.

Speaker 28 But Frank made that point about those focus groups. But

Speaker 28 I'm curious. your point of view then with Trump.

Speaker 28 You must have known him tangentially, but you were the leader of the, as you said yourself a second ago, conservative movement here's a former democrat kind of all over the place no strong ideological moorings necessarily i mean you must have been pretty distrustful early on were you of donald trump no you weren't i mean first of all i've known trump for a quarter century right uh

Speaker 28 he doesn't know his politics though he wasn't always a line of the you know i knew him back when he was a businessman but he was a very noisy businessman

Speaker 29 and uh and i and i'd read his two books uh which i i recommend to everybody If you want to understand Trump, you read The Art of the Deal and The Art of the Comeback.

Speaker 29 And The Art of the Comeback is the more important of the two.

Speaker 28 Because it opens up with some very telling lines, doesn't it?

Speaker 29 Well, it's amazing. He opens up with

Speaker 29 my property in Atlantic City is losing money.

Speaker 29 The economy is going down because of Iraq.

Speaker 29 I'm $900 million in debt personally to the banks. And my wife just called and said she wanted a divorce.
And he has this great line.

Speaker 29 He says, this is the moment you either get depressed or you plan a comeback.

Speaker 29 This book is about, which also tells you a lot about how he survived the last four years.

Speaker 28 That's right.

Speaker 29 This is a guy who's resilient on a scale that is historic. We first talked with him.
Plissa and I had breakfast with him in Des Moines, of all places, in February of 2015.

Speaker 29 And we talked about running for president because we'd run in 12 and learned the hard way that if the other guy has many millions more than you,

Speaker 29 bet on the money.

Speaker 29 But I learned a lot about running for president.

Speaker 28 Even though you won easily, by any objective measure, you won all those damn debates. At least most of the time.

Speaker 29 Enough TV ads could undo the debates.

Speaker 29 For me, it was a wonderful learning experience.

Speaker 29 And I think in my willingness to take on the news media head-on, I was probably a forerunner for Trump's invention of

Speaker 29 fake news.

Speaker 29 But we talked at length about running, and it was very interesting.

Speaker 29 And you could tell that he had now moved from that would be an interesting thing to kind of a businessman thinking through what would it take, how much would it cost, how would you structure it.

Speaker 29 And so I watched his development all through 15, and

Speaker 29 I wasn't particularly pro-Trump at that point.

Speaker 28 Right.

Speaker 29 Frankly, if you remember, Jeb Bush was the front runner.

Speaker 28 Of course.

Speaker 29 He had the most money.

Speaker 28 100 million in a pack.

Speaker 29 He had his father and his his brother. Yep.
He had a nationwide name ID.

Speaker 29 And watching Trump psychologically take him apart. Low energy.
The case study. Well, he got so far inside Jeb's head that Jeb is running around New Hampshire in shorts, jogging.

Speaker 29 Now, the average New Hampshireite regards the idea of a presidential candidate who's jogging. as disqualification on grounds just automatically,

Speaker 29 which was really unfortunate because Jebs actually was a very good reform governor of Florida. But Trump just had this ability to somehow set the stage where you couldn't win.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 29 it's a very unusual capability.

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Speaker 28 So it's interesting. So I appreciate in 2015, you started, I mean, there was sort of the dance of sort of developing more of this formal relationship as it relates to the political incident.

Speaker 28 Did you find him particularly policy driven then? Was he inquisitive in terms of tactics or policy?

Speaker 29 Look, he's talking about tariffs 40 years ago.

Speaker 28 Yeah, true.

Speaker 29 Talking about immigration. I mean, the whole, he's talking about the corruption of Washington.
I mean, there are some basic themes.

Speaker 29 But what I was going to say, though, is, and this may help you understand where I'm coming from.

Speaker 29 Trump is not a conservative. Right.
Trump is the best anti-liberal politician of my lifetime,

Speaker 29 better than Reagan. Reagan was the great conservative articulator.
I sort of stood on his shoulders with the contract with America. And we came out of a formed philosophical background.

Speaker 29 Trump.

Speaker 29 understands that the current system doesn't work and that the woke phase of the American left left is totally destructive of the American system. This is my view, obviously.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 29 therefore, he is prepared to fight everybody I want to fight. Now, the fact that he doesn't read Bill Buckley and he doesn't have a national review subscription, I don't care.

Speaker 29 Because I know that instinctively he'll get up every morning and think, you know, what part of the left can I take apart today?

Speaker 29 And one day it'll be Harvard, and another day it'll be the New York Times, and another day it'll be some bureaucracy. But every day he will cheerfully go out and engage and

Speaker 29 tear apart the people who I think need to be torn apart. So I'm very happy to have a non-conservative, anti-liberal, entrepreneurial activist with all the skills of a great businessman.

Speaker 28 Well, so at peril, I jump right into the book and get chapters and chapters ahead. He's also taking on things that you've championed.

Speaker 28 I mean, you've highlighted in the book the importance of genomics and synthetic biology and discovery and invest, you know, in R ⁇ D, the issues obviously with DARPA, et cetera.

Speaker 28 I mean, how concerning, including, by the way, you just did a documentary with your wife on, of all things, four-letter word for some of your friends, PBS,

Speaker 28 a very proud PBS to me, but on Journey to America on immigration. And so I'm curious, just that tension, I get the sort of owning the lib and liberalism more broadly defined, but

Speaker 28 where are you in this sort of calculation?

Speaker 29 I think when everything shakes out,

Speaker 29 let's start with immigration.

Speaker 29 Trump is as pro-legal immigration as he is anti-illegal immigration.

Speaker 29 I mean, two of his wives are foreign-born.

Speaker 29 His mother came from Scotland.

Speaker 29 You know, he's not going to jump up and down. And he has said openly, I mean, he's come up with this idea of this five million dollar, you know, avenue to America.

Speaker 28 What happened to that?

Speaker 29 Well, I suspect it'll be implemented if he wants the money.

Speaker 28 Uh,

Speaker 29 I'm not sure his calculations are right.

Speaker 28 Uh, yeah, no, that was a little generous.

Speaker 29 I'm not sure that enough people show up to make it a big deal, but it'll be but Canada and other countries have had very similar, smaller-scale example budgets. Uh,

Speaker 29 there's no question that the

Speaker 29 most aggressive pieces of the Trump coalition would do things that I would regard as destructive.

Speaker 29 There's also no question if you look at, for example, the caliber of the people he's appointed at the Center for Disease Control or the National Institute of Health.

Speaker 29 These are very smart, very senior people.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 29 I just had a conversation with the new head of NIH, who clearly wants to clean out the underbrush.

Speaker 29 But and I say this as a guy who, while balancing the federal budget for four years in a row, the only time in 100 years, we doubled the size of NIH while balancing the budget

Speaker 29 so deeply in science. But I'll also tell you, it's now a big, I mean, it kept growing.

Speaker 29 So, what we doubled was the baseline from which it just kept growing. And it's a big bureaucratic system with a lot of baloney.
I mean, when you're paying 65%

Speaker 29 more than the grant so that Harvard or Stanford or somebody can pay for overhead, There's a lot you can do that doesn't hurt genuine reform.

Speaker 29 You also have a big problem, which I don't know how they're going to solve, and that is they've gotten into this ROPA-dope system where people will file for a research project, not reach the conclusion, because they've already filed for continuing.

Speaker 29 And if they reach the conclusion, they'd have to go out and find a whole new topic.

Speaker 28 Yeah,

Speaker 29 you get a fair amount of slowing down research by bureaucratizing it. So, I mean, I'm passionate about this stuff.
I'll give you one other example. I am totally committed to space.

Speaker 29 I have been since in 1981. I introduced the Northwest Ordinance for the Moon saying that if you got to a certain population, you could apply for statehood, which at that time people thought was nuts.

Speaker 29 Now they still think it's nuts, but not quite as nuts.

Speaker 28 I remember you in the debates talking about space, and we were wondering what the, you know, you were on the edge there. So you have been

Speaker 28 100% consistent. I'm just glad that Elon came along and made you doable.

Speaker 29 I mean, mean, I'll give you an example. When the Starship actually gets settled down and works properly, it has 33 engines.

Speaker 29 It produces 2.3 times as much thrust as the Saturn V, the rocket that went to the moon. 2.3 times as much.

Speaker 29 So your choice is to go with the traditional NASA, spend an amazing amount of money, and maybe get two people on the surface of the moon, or this thing will lift 100 people or 150 tons.

Speaker 29 So

Speaker 29 you could put 50 to 70 people on the moon in one bite. I mean, just boom.

Speaker 28 But to your point, that requires NSF. It requires all of the innovation and entrepreneurial.
I mean, it requires research institutions. It requires presumably institutions of higher learning as well.

Speaker 28 Are you concerned about what's happening in terms of those partnerships? I mean, just I think about Sendia Labs, Lawrence Livermore Labs.

Speaker 28 I think about all the RD that's happening with military and obviously with academia. I mean, are you concerned that there's there's a recklessness? I appreciate solving for issues of some abuse

Speaker 28 or some inefficiencies, but there seems to be a blunt

Speaker 28 approach. There is.

Speaker 29 No, first of all, I think there is. And as a historian, I would argue that when you try to make change on this scale, you're going to have very sloppy margins.

Speaker 29 You cannot move slow enough to be careful or the old order will surround you and drown you.

Speaker 28 Here, here.

Speaker 29 You have to be, which means you're going to make mistakes and you're going to screw things up and you've got to go back and fix them. At the same time, I would say,

Speaker 29 I worry about our greatest universities, partially from, I suspect, the opposite of your view, which is partially I think they're so left-wing now that they're virtually totalitarian and that they create a groupthink that is really destructive.

Speaker 29 And yet,

Speaker 29 at one point, just a generation ago, these were the greatest centers of learning on the planet.

Speaker 29 And that does worry me.

Speaker 29 How do you keep the best of Harvard or the best of MIT or the best of Stanford or Berkeley

Speaker 29 without, well, at the same time, taking head on the kind of ideological groupthink that has become literally almost totalitarian in its unwillingness to have any competition of ideas?

Speaker 29 And I think that's a real challenge. And we don't, the truth is we don't have a good answer.

Speaker 28 No, I mean, how do you square that circle specifically on this notion of the journey to America? And I want to talk to about the timing of that.

Speaker 28 And by the way, congratulations, 90-minute documentary on PBS. That's really a love letter to absorbing the best and the brightest in who we are as America in the spirit of Reagan.

Speaker 28 He talked about the life force of new Americans, that language evocative of who we are. But now we're starting to talk about 27% of the student body is international at Harvard.

Speaker 28 And you're basically saying, no, you don't need to apply. And they're opening up their arms arms and their wallets in places like China.
How do we square that?

Speaker 29 I think it's very hard.

Speaker 29 I think that there are two conflicting things going on and

Speaker 29 we don't talk about them very honestly. I think what's happened in much of Europe where the culture is literally being drowned

Speaker 29 should be a much greater alarm and it's something you can't even talk about. But if if you look at places in Britain or France or Sweden or neighborhoods in Brussels,

Speaker 29 you're seeing basically the end of Western civilization.

Speaker 29 So on the one hand, you have to say, are there legitimate concerns about who comes here and why they come here?

Speaker 29 The other side of that is, with the Chinese, a very great deal of China's technological advance has come from American universities where Chinese students come, learn a heck of a lot, and go back home.

Speaker 29 And if China is our biggest competitor, which I think may turn out to be exaggerated a decade from now, nonetheless, for planning purposes, they're our biggest competitor.

Speaker 29 Do you really want Caltech

Speaker 29 and MIT to be providing the best Chinese scientists in the world so they can go back home? I mean, those are topics that deserve a lot deeper and more conversation.

Speaker 29 And I think I'm perfectly happy to say that there will be pieces of the

Speaker 29 Make America Great Again movement that are going to have to go back and be fixed because they're going to be destructive. Some of them are just plain going to be wrong.

Speaker 29 I mean, I'm a very big advocate for science. I wrote a piece recently on why we should not cut science funding at NASA, for example.

Speaker 29 On the one hand, I'm totally in favor of wiping out the space launch system, which is stunningly expensive and has accomplished nothing.

Speaker 29 And by the way, you could probably pay for a decade of NASA science with the cost of the space launch system.

Speaker 29 So I think there are ways that there are good things we should protect, and that's going to lead to fights.

Speaker 29 Because you're going to have some people who are clumsy or sloppy or who ideologically are pretty cheerful about being ignorant. I mean,

Speaker 28 I mean, look, you talk talk about Doge in the book.

Speaker 28 You write about it rather, but you write about it very in laudatory terms, but you make the point you just made as it relates to if you're going to move fast, you're going to break some things.

Speaker 28 But this notion of iteration and time to move and speed, you even highlight old Peter Drucker talking about excellence and efficiency, which I appreciated.

Speaker 28 But I mean, what is your over-under? Just, you know, Doge in particular, is it,

Speaker 28 you know, are you satisfied with the $2 trillion in savings?

Speaker 29 It will turn out to have

Speaker 29 at least two patterns. One is more noise than achievement.

Speaker 29 And the other is that it will have exposed for us a number of things that were going on that are kind of astonishing.

Speaker 29 And that you, you know, so on the one hand.

Speaker 28 Condoms in Gaza, which, you know, turn out not to be the case. What do you mean?

Speaker 29 For example, it's pretty clear that I think at least 10% of the U.N. refugee workers in Gaza were pro-Hamas.

Speaker 28 Okay, that's separate, separate.

Speaker 28 I'm just lamenting on the sort of Orwellian notion of $50 million of condoms, which the president reminded me of in the Oval Office, which I told him was not true.

Speaker 29 As a good Californian, I'm sure you fondly remember Reagan.

Speaker 28 I do. And by the way, Mr.
Speaker, I'm in his office every day as a point of pride. That's right.

Speaker 29 Well, that's right. I mean,

Speaker 29 right there in the governorship. Well, every once in a while, Reagan would see something in the newspaper and it would click in his head and it would repeat it endlessly.

Speaker 28 I see where you're going.

Speaker 28 And so, now, look,

Speaker 29 there's a great

Speaker 29 Rilke, who's a German poet, once said, if you drive away my demons, will my angels flee also?

Speaker 29 Well, the challenge with a charismatic leader of Trump's power is there's five or 10% where you go, really?

Speaker 29 And then there's this other stuff that is amazing and historic. And you may not be able to separate the two.

Speaker 28 Yeah. Or, yeah, I mean, I may have a different, I'm maybe 90, 10 of your 10.
I wanted to flip that. Yeah, I flip the

Speaker 29 that's one of the reasons I want to do the show with you. I remember when we talked about Citizenville

Speaker 29 and all the ideas you had a decade ago before you ran into the Sacramento bureaucracy.

Speaker 28 God bless.

Speaker 29 By the way, I still tell people, that's a really worthwhile book.

Speaker 28 I appreciate you for saying that. By the way, I think so much, it's interesting.

Speaker 28 I reflected on that, our conversations and a little bit on that book as reading your book. I mean, you talk about, you know, governing, not just campaigning.

Speaker 28 You talk about issues around efficient and effective government.

Speaker 28 And more novel, and I think what's always interested me about you is your willingness to lean into the future and talk about healthcare differently than others, as you did again here, even highlighted my old friend Dean Ornich in terms of some of his work on wellness and prevention, these four Ps you talk about, predictability

Speaker 28 and personalization in the healthcare space. But you also take on other spaces, which I appreciate as well, like the old Eisenhower frame on the military-industrial complex.

Speaker 28 And I'm curious, in relationship to the Doge question, why do you think there's been so little willingness to enter into that space, even the space launch example you just gave?

Speaker 29 I think,

Speaker 29 you know, I had one fight in the first Bush's Trump's first term

Speaker 29 over Huawei and what we needed to do to dramatically strengthen American telecommunications. And it's the one fight that I clearly decisively lost.

Speaker 29 And I lost it because ATT was on the other side.

Speaker 29 And ATT is so big, contributes so much money, has so many lobbyists, buys so many TV ads that, you know, I just, it just ran over me. It was an exciting experience, but

Speaker 29 I felt like the guy in Tiananmen Square with the tank did.

Speaker 29 So I start with that. I mean, it is,

Speaker 29 I think the space launch system is one of the best examples of the sickness of the old order.

Speaker 29 And what Eisenhower did warn about, I mean, people should go back and read his farewell address, because he's very clear.

Speaker 29 And this guy had been a five-star general, commander of allied forces in Europe, as well as president. So he had pretty good knowledge.
And he's saying correctly:

Speaker 29 in order to build a system big enough to defeat or contain the Soviet Empire,

Speaker 29 you have to turn over so much money and power to a bureaucracy, which will then hire big corporations.

Speaker 29 that you're going to have the permanent danger that they grow together into sort of a single organism, which then operates for its own benefit.

Speaker 29 And that's an enormous problem across the, it's a problem in healthcare, too. I mean, big health, in many ways, is as bad as big defense.

Speaker 29 And I'm working on a paper right now, which will amuse you when it finally comes out,

Speaker 29 talking about Trump time and Trump savings.

Speaker 29 And going back to the

Speaker 29 skating rink in New York.

Speaker 29 The city had the rink had had quit making ice, which makes it very hard if you're a skating rink. And the city had for six years tried to fix it, had spent $13 million.

Speaker 29 Trump talks about this in his first in the book, The Art of the Deal.

Speaker 28 This is one of his great successes. Yeah.
Objectively.

Speaker 29 And he says, you know, he's looking at his apartment looks out over the rink, the Walman rink. And so he finally gets so pissed off at six years they can't make ice.

Speaker 29 And he challenges the mayor publicly and says, you give it to me, and I will fix it in less than a year for

Speaker 29 under $3 million.

Speaker 29 Well, he fixed it in four months, and we came in 25% below budget. Now, they already spent $6.5 million.
He came in 25% below the $3 million budget, totally fixed in four months.

Speaker 29 And in the book, he has this great line where he says, they had this firm in Florida that had won the contract and didn't know what they were doing. And so I said to myself, who builds skating rinks?

Speaker 29 I thought Canadian.

Speaker 29 And I went, oh,

Speaker 29 excuse me. So he goes to the National Hockey League and says, who builds the skating rinks? And this is Firman Montreal.
And they fly down and they look at it and they go, this is really embarrassing.

Speaker 29 This is so easy to fix, you can't believe it. And when he finally got it done, somebody said, what happened? He said, it wasn't magic.
It was common sense and management.

Speaker 29 Well, to the degree degree that we could bring common sense and management, we would, I think you could get better defense for

Speaker 29 25% less than the current defense budget if you could clean out all the bureaucracy and all the cronyism and all the bad contracts. I tell every audience,

Speaker 29 if you took the Pentagon and turned it into a triangle,

Speaker 29 and took the other two-thirds and turned it into a museum,

Speaker 29 you would get a better defense system overnight.

Speaker 29 And the reason is simple. I mean, you'll understand this as a governor of a state with a huge bureaucracy.
They built the Pentagon in 1943 so that 26,000 people could manage World War II with

Speaker 29 carbon paper, manual typewriters, and filing cabinets.

Speaker 29 And in fact, Marshall's chief of staff used to run drills to see how fast you could find paper. If you needed a certain document, where is it? How do you get there?

Speaker 29 Well, everybody in the Pentagon now has a smartphone, an iPad, a laptop computer. And I have never gotten, you might be able to get somebody at Caltech to figure this out.

Speaker 29 I've never been able to get an exchange rate.

Speaker 29 That is, if you have one person over here with a carbon paper distribution and one person over here with a smartphone or an iPad or a computer, what's the relative exchange rate of information flow?

Speaker 29 My guess is it's above a million.

Speaker 28 Well, guess what?

Speaker 29 You have the same 26,000 people.

Speaker 29 Now, since they're not filing paper and they're not writing on carbon, what they're doing is writing each other to prove that their job is important so they can stay employed.

Speaker 29 So you screw up the whole system with person A writing person B who writes person C, who then writes person A, and they beat these things to death.

Speaker 29 And exactly the way New York City was failing with the Ice Ring.

Speaker 29 because you have a bunch of bureaucrats who write papers that have no meaning.

Speaker 29 And I think I helped found the Military Reform Caucus in 81. I helped pass the Goldwater-Nichols reform in 86 against every active duty senior officer.

Speaker 29 None of them wanted it. Nowadays, I'll tell you it's invaluable.

Speaker 29 We need a deep, thorough review of all of our national security, not just defense, all of it, if we're going to compete in the modern world.

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Speaker 28 It just seems of all things, and I appreciate the skating rig because it's a reminder of under promise, over deliver.

Speaker 28 And we can talk about some of those day one actions that Trump may or may not have succeeded with in a moment. But I'm curious as it relates to the issues of the Pentagon.

Speaker 28 I mean, Trump's been bold and he's provided a lot of space for Doge and certainly Musk in the last 100 days,

Speaker 28 but the Pentagon does seem to be off limits. I mean, is that

Speaker 28 accurate?

Speaker 29 I don't think so.

Speaker 29 I think they will presently be as ruthless at the Pentagon as they will be anywhere else.

Speaker 28 Interesting. F-35 comes to mind?

Speaker 29 Huh?

Speaker 28 What? F-35 comes to mind?

Speaker 29 Actually, I've gotten real pushback on that.

Speaker 29 I was one of the people who was really critical.

Speaker 29 But three or four people who I'm writing this paper, and I was talking about examples of cost overruns.

Speaker 29 And I've had three or four people who do not work for Lockheed, aren't part of the system, but they're very smart, write back and say to me, that is an inaccurate measurement.

Speaker 29 But if you actually look at the plane they have built, it has no relationship to the original contract. It is vastly superior.

Speaker 29 And the price has dropped now to about a reasonable price for a fifth generation fighter. I mean, I was shocked.

Speaker 29 I took took it out of my paper because there were too many people writing me back and saying,

Speaker 29 the other examples are terrific. This one's just dumb.
It's not technically right.

Speaker 28 Interesting.

Speaker 29 Because

Speaker 29 a week ago, I would have said to you exactly that.

Speaker 28 Yeah, no, it's sort of,

Speaker 28 it's, we throw that one around.

Speaker 29 And now I'm getting beaten up by people who know a lot more than I do saying, now I have a lot of good examples in my paper, but that ain't one of them.

Speaker 28 That ain't one of them. Interesting.
So, all right, so you'll stipulate we should see some more.

Speaker 28 I mean, obviously, the Secretary of Defense has done some personnel moves, et cetera, but they seem relatively modest compared to the overall reforms that you're advocating for.

Speaker 28 But one of the things I've struck in the book, and again, unsurprising because it's been a consistent theme with you, is sort of anticipating.

Speaker 28 the next war, not necessarily re-litigating and reflecting exclusively on the last one. And the issues of

Speaker 28 electronic EMF issues that you've been sort of focused on, issues of space in relationship to defense, et cetera.

Speaker 28 Talk to me a little bit about what you sort of posit or you at least promote in this book as it relates to future security and national defense.

Speaker 29 I think there are three big things.

Speaker 29 The first is we need to quit talking about war fighting and think about war winning.

Speaker 29 The fact that we have great tactical capabilities and wonderfully courageous people who go for 21 or 22 years in a place like Afghanistan and don't win should bother us.

Speaker 29 Because war fighting is not the goal. War winning is the goal.
And as Sun Tzu wrote,

Speaker 29 in 500 BC, the greatest of all generals win bloodless victories. So, you know, the question is: can America design a war-winning series of strategies rather than a war-fighting strategies?

Speaker 29 The second thing I would say is you have to look at all of national security. You mentioned, for example, the real threat of an electromagnetic pulse attack.

Speaker 29 And a very close friend of mine, Bill Fortune, wrote a remarkable novel called One Second After, in which he shows you a village in North Carolina after electricity has been cut off by an electromagnetic impulse.

Speaker 29 I mean, it is a breathtaking book. He was actually invited to Sandia.
You'd mentioned Sandia Labs earlier.

Speaker 29 He was invited there by the physicists who were grateful that somebody could explain what they worried about

Speaker 29 and thought his book really was a very accurate projection. So you need to think about not just the Defense Department, but the totality of national security.

Speaker 29 And then in the Defense Department itself, I begun writing something which only occurred to me by watching Ukraine.

Speaker 29 We are seeing

Speaker 29 an extraordinary change in the nature of warfare, and none of us understand it yet.

Speaker 29 I'm actually going to write a paper on Poitiers, Crecy, and Agincourt, which are the three great battles in the Middle Ages, where the British annihilate the French because the French cannot adjust.

Speaker 29 They have to be armored knights. Their culture requires it.
And the British have developed a longbow which slaughters armored knights. And

Speaker 29 it takes place over a century. And in that entire period, their culture will not allow them to change.
Well, we may have a similar problem.

Speaker 29 We like big, expensive, sophisticated, long-to-develop, long-to-field systems.

Speaker 29 You're now up against, as I said a while ago, I think the numbers for next year, or for this year, for Ukraine are going to be five hundred thousand drones.

Speaker 29 Now most of them are small, most of them are simple.

Speaker 29 Most of our guys would look down their nose at them. But Lord Nelson, who won the Battle of Trafalgar, said a one-point numbers annihilate.

Speaker 29 And if you take the combination of artificial intelligence, robotics,

Speaker 29 3D printing, new specialized kinds of chemistry,

Speaker 29 There's a firm in your state actually called Divergent, which is probably the most advanced factory on the planet, far ahead of anything in China.

Speaker 29 And they use those techniques to be able to shift what they make within a matter of hours. I mean, it's astonishing to visit them, and they're in LA, not far from an in-and-out burger.

Speaker 28 And they,

Speaker 29 I measure my trips to California.

Speaker 28 Trust me, a lot of people do. I've one of them too.

Speaker 29 But anyway,

Speaker 29 when you start thinking about, for example, you don't just measure the Chinese warship navy. All the Chinese merchant ships have been designed now for 20 years to be capable of launching drones.

Speaker 29 Well, if I have a ship and it happens to have 40 drones on it, is that an aircraft carrier or is that a merchant ship?

Speaker 29 And if I have 1800 of them,

Speaker 29 does that count as part of my navy? Or is that just an auxiliary group?

Speaker 29 And how many munitions does an American ship carry? And how many drones can it stop if the other guy is able to send endless quantities?

Speaker 29 I'm just giving you a flavor.

Speaker 29 I don't think we realize yet. You know, I talked occasionally to the Amazon people about their use of robotics, which is part of the reason they've been able to be so amazing.

Speaker 29 We have no notion yet of how fast the modern battlefield is going to become and how complicated it's going to become.

Speaker 29 And our current bureaucracies and our current procurement system makes it very difficult to be agile enough. And frankly,

Speaker 29 the dominance of these big corporations, the Lockheeds, the Boeings, what have you, Raytheon, makes it very hard to have the kind of entrepreneurial change that you've seen in Silicon Valley for your entire lifetime.

Speaker 29 You know, it's the small company today that's the giant company in 20 years.

Speaker 29 And if you can't grow the small companies because they can't get through the Defense Department's paperwork, then you're not ever going to have the rate and rhythm of innovation that you need.

Speaker 28 No, I appreciate it. And that's something you highlight, sort of that framework of iteration, the sandbox and procurement reform, which is so foundational.

Speaker 28 And it's really, it's about, you know, it's the incumbency racket.

Speaker 28 You talk about incumbency capitalism versus innovation capitalism.

Speaker 28 And that sort of innovation capitalism is a big part of what we focus on. And obviously, I think it's part of the secret sauce, to your point,

Speaker 28 of Silicon Valley. I'm curious, just going back a little bit and, you know, and we're bouncing around a little bit here, but again, back to timing,

Speaker 28 because Journey to America, you did it with your wife, and you guys have done how many documentaries now? You've done 44 books.

Speaker 29 We've done 10 movies, and I've done 44 books. She and I have done,

Speaker 29 I think, four or five of them together. She wrote

Speaker 29 six children's books about Ellis the Elephant and American history.

Speaker 29 Yeah, Yeah, well, it's particularly interesting because she's a music major. She was a piano major, plays the French horn, spent 20 years in a professional choir at the Basilica in Washington.

Speaker 29 So that's her natural background.

Speaker 29 Then she was a clerk in the Agriculture Committee in the House.

Speaker 29 And

Speaker 29 she works really hard. She works much harder than I do.

Speaker 28 And tune in for the rest of the conversation with Newt Gingrich.

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