And, This is A Republican Without A Country with Frank Luntz

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Speaker 21 Coming up next on This is Gavin Newsome. I'll be talking to legendary Republican pollster and communications strategist Frank Luntz.

Speaker 21 We'll be talking about the state of the Democratic Party, Trump's first hundred days, and perhaps most importantly, the state of our union. This is Gavin Newsom.

Speaker 21 And this is Frank Luntz.

Speaker 22 You look casual.

Speaker 21 Do you know, Frank, I wanted to dress up for you.

Speaker 22 By the way, throughout all of this, you've been the most interesting person to me. I haven't always agreed.
You've always been really kind to me.

Speaker 22 And even though we've disagreed,

Speaker 22 I've enjoyed the, it's not even been a back and forth. You're just a good guy.

Speaker 21 I love that, man.

Speaker 21 I appreciate that. You know what? Let's start right there because I, you know, we're at a point where we're not, none of us are talking like that.

Speaker 21 I mean, you've been studying this stuff for decades and decades. I've been listening to you lately.
I mean, you think it's as bad as it's been in our lifetime, meaning we're at each other's throat.

Speaker 21 This country has never been more divided. Is that an overstatement or is that about it?

Speaker 22 That's exactly it. And to me,

Speaker 22 and this is what's frightening about it, is that we want to fight. We want to argue.
We want to disagree. We're looking at a reason to be able to say, I'm insulted, or worse yet, I'm offended.

Speaker 22 And that's the kind of culture that we're in right now. And no one's trying to get us out of it.
And I give Corey Booker credit because for most of his 25 hours, it was uplifting.

Speaker 22 He was talking about real people, real concerns. And he did it in a way that isn't political.

Speaker 22 And I think the guy who cut him off, the guy who jumped to that to make sure that he would always be remembered, Chuck Schumer, is so far past his sell-by date because he doesn't really understand that now we're playing with fire.

Speaker 21 So, Frank, I want to talk about Corey because I was struck by how complimentary you were of his 25-hour speech.

Speaker 21 But I want to go back a little bit about, you know, you've been studying this, you've been focused on this, you've been, I mean, you've been a leader in this space and understanding communication, understanding emotion, understanding the nature of relationships, not just the relationship to one another politically through the lens of ideology.

Speaker 21 But has this been, I mean, has this been decades in the making? Is there a moment that you would mark that sort of led to this moment? And, you know, what's your sort of over-under in that respect?

Speaker 22 Well, the moment that it started was the day that Newt Newt Gingrich got elected speaker in 1994, because that was Republicans winning something that they had known had not won for 40 years.

Speaker 22 And the Democrats didn't like it and never got used to it. And Gingrich was provocative.
He pushed you. He prodded you in an intellectual basis.
But sometimes he used language that hurt himself.

Speaker 22 If you remember that Christmas of 1994, they had on the front page of Newsweek magazine, the Gingrich that stole Christmas.

Speaker 22 Well, you're going to get negativity if that's how the media treats you.

Speaker 22 Now go forward to Bill Clinton's impeachment and the feeling that what he did, while horrific and inappropriate, did that really rise to the level of impeachment? Now go forward to 2000.

Speaker 22 And Al Gore and George Bush actually tying

Speaker 22 and how one side, some people in that one side never, never

Speaker 22 awarded Bush the presidency and always said that the election was stolen.

Speaker 22 And then go forward to 2010 and the rise of the Tea Party and 2016 to the rise of Trump. We've been going through this now since 1994, five or six different moments.
And here's the issue to me.

Speaker 22 In almost all those moments, there were calm heads. There was somebody who would say, enough, with an exclamation point.
Just stop doing this. Just shut the hell up.

Speaker 22 Yeah, you may be right, but the country is more important.

Speaker 22 And now, now there's no one doing that. There's no one saying it.
There's no one. Look, I'll say this to you.

Speaker 22 And I like you. I said this.
I really do. And people make fun of me saying it.

Speaker 22 But when you caught yourself the resistance, I had exploded.

Speaker 22 You're the opposition, but you're not the resistance.

Speaker 21 Right.

Speaker 22 You're the

Speaker 22 You're the challenge, you're the check as a governor.

Speaker 22 But that's very different than saying I'm going to oppose everything that you do.

Speaker 22 And I just feel like we've reached a point on every side. I want to emphasize this, on every side, that we're insane.
And now our country is at stake.

Speaker 22 I really do believe that our democracy is at stake right now.

Speaker 21 No, I appreciate that. And also, you know, it's interesting, just this notion of resistance.

Speaker 21 When we did a special session, what was remarkable to me is what I did not say, but what was attributed to me as it relates to the purpose of that special session after Trump won.

Speaker 21 We talked about an open hand, not a closed fist. That never got any attention.

Speaker 21 Folks focused on that in the context of sort of zero sum, which I think is so much of the politics.

Speaker 21 But I want to go back a little bit just because 1994 and it sort of marks a little bit of your history.

Speaker 21 And, you know, just for folks that don't know you as well as folks like myself that have been following you for decades and decades, you've been traditionally aligned with Republican causes, and you were aligned with Gingrich as it relates to that 1994 effort, as it relates to that effort to take back the House, as you say, for the first time in 40 years and that contract with America, that infamous contract with America.

Speaker 21 You worked. with Gingrich, did you not? Sort of helping develop the language around that.
Do you separate that from what came after his successful ascendancy?

Speaker 22 Truthfully, it's the best thing I've ever done. I should have quit while I was ahead because it's the first time that elected officials actually put an agenda on the line.

Speaker 22 What was important to that contract was what they were going to do in the first hour and first day, which is something that still politicians need to tell voters they want to know.

Speaker 22 Second is that it itemized it, 10 different issues from balanced budgets to term limits to fighting crime to welfare reform to

Speaker 22 tax reform, all the issues that matter to people. And then there was an enforcement clause.
If we break our promise, throw us out. We mean it.
With a 1-800 number to keep track of them.

Speaker 22 It was the first time that anyone had offered accountability.

Speaker 22 And of course, the Democrats demonized it. They called it the Contract Act on America.

Speaker 22 But they were wrong. And the voters said they were wrong.
And in the end, let's keep the record straight here. Only 40% of Americans ever heard of the contract on election day, a minority of voters.

Speaker 22 But those who heard of it had a four to one positive rating towards it, which is unprecedented.

Speaker 22 And it made a difference in the key states because it got Republicans to run for something, not against it.

Speaker 22 And I don't know whether to call you Gavin or Governor, but governor, the issue now is that no one runs for something

Speaker 22 no one tells you what you're for they tell you why the other guy's wrong the other guy's evil and the other guy should be defeated

Speaker 22 and this is a really important conversation to have and i'm glad that you're hosting it and by the way you've taken more

Speaker 22 than anyone for bringing on i would not have brought on steve bannon steve bannon scares me

Speaker 22 i knew him before he was steve bannon and before I was Frank Luntz. And the guy is,

Speaker 22 he scares me. But the fact that you're willing to have these open conversations to engage with people who you don't agree with,

Speaker 22 why aren't more people doing this?

Speaker 22 Why don't we have more civil conversations designed to expose the truth, the relentless pursuit of the truth? What is so wrong about this? You, sir, you've been criticized for doing this.

Speaker 22 And I'm telling people, shut the hell up and listen. You might learn something.

Speaker 22 Why are we so, I'm 63 now, and you can hear it in my voice and how these have been some very tough months for me.

Speaker 22 I'm learning more in these months than I've learned in the last 60 years of my life. Why are we so sure that we're right and they're wrong?

Speaker 22 Why are we so sure that if we don't pick up another book, that there's no reason to read it, to explore, to question, and to challenge?

Speaker 22 This is why I teach at West Point. This is why I'm wearing this shirt, because I'm meeting with the best students.
And governor, you got to come.

Speaker 22 The reason why I did this interview, why I wanted to be face-to-face, is I wanted to invite you to West Point, reach over, shake your hand, because I know then you have to go.

Speaker 22 There are more cadets from California than any other state.

Speaker 21 Love it.

Speaker 22 I want you to see the best and the brightest and the most ethical and the most devoted and the most civil.

Speaker 22 They say, yes, sir. No, ma'am.
Thank you.

Speaker 22 They're appreciative of their country and they're willing to give the greatest sacrifice for it.

Speaker 22 Just as you and I can have a civil conversation, please come to West Point and meet the best Californians you'll ever meet.

Speaker 21 No, I appreciate that. And full disclosure, you invited me and Wes Moore, Governor Moore from Maryland at the National Governor Association.

Speaker 21 We were there and you asked if we were available and the two of us had the privilege of doing a little roundtable with you where you did a mini focus group with these guys and they were asking us questions.

Speaker 21 And that was a special, I know for Wes and I, we left that meeting, Frank.

Speaker 21 I mean, these guys, to your point, next level inspired by their service, their civic-mindedness,

Speaker 21 their sense of duty and patriotism.

Speaker 21 It really touched, I know, both Wes and I. And so I appreciate your firm commitment to those young men and women that

Speaker 21 are truly among the best and the brightest.

Speaker 22 And they loved you because the two of you didn't agree on everything.

Speaker 22 And you talked with each other with civility and respect you had different approaches to some of the biggest issues facing the country and they were so thrilled that two of the most important governors in the country would give them an hour and i want to give you credit for this you you promised me 20 minutes you stayed for an hour and 10 governor thank you for that they noticed it they appreciated it and i want viewers to know that

Speaker 22 you give a shit, frankly.

Speaker 21 No, I appreciate that. And look, I think, you know, they sort of distill the essence of, I think, the path back and getting out of this muck.

Speaker 21 And I want to go back, though, just a little bit, Frank, on your journey, because I'm really fascinated by this.

Speaker 21 And I appreciate your firm defense of the contract with America in the context of, look, having a plan, having an agenda, of being transparent about it as you're running, and then

Speaker 21 having some accountability framework and the merits and the demerits of that, I'm interested in. But moreover, I'm just interested in your own journey.

Speaker 21 I mean, you were out there working not only for causes supporting Gingrich, but obviously other Republican causes, as I referenced, and helping messaging and languaging for George Bush.

Speaker 21 And you worked the pro campaign a little bit, Giuliani and others. Was there a point in your own journey where you realized, man, this is not going well for this country?

Speaker 21 That even you started to sort of soften the edges, started to reach out to the other side?

Speaker 22 Well, I was always curious.

Speaker 22 And it was Tom Dashley who brought me in. And I created, well, I have not talked about, I've never talked about this, actually.

Speaker 22 I don't even know if you know what I'm about to say, but I created a phrase, the Dashley Democrats. And these are people who acted one way in Washington and a different way back home.

Speaker 22 And Tom Dashley is one of the most ethical people I ever knew. Still around.

Speaker 22 He's a really special human being. But I demonized him using that Dash on Democrat.
And it was John McCain who came up to me and said, Do you really have to do that?

Speaker 22 Can we find a way to disagree without labeling people? McCain, a Republican, dressing me down.

Speaker 22 And John McCain's tough and he disagrees with you. He tells you it.
And you have to scrape yourself back together and somehow leave the room with your tail between your legs.

Speaker 22 And I felt really bad about that. And Dash was the first person to bring me to a Senate Democrat meeting.

Speaker 22 And this is maybe around 2000, I'd say, maybe 2002. And I presented to them.
And I remember

Speaker 22 Barbara Boxer, California senator,

Speaker 22 giving me a hard time around the table.

Speaker 22 And he leaned over to me and he said, let it go.

Speaker 22 And it was the best advice I ever got because she was ideological.

Speaker 22 She was very political, very in your face, wanted to take you on because she believed in what she believed in and wanted you to know it and wanted to bring you over to her side.

Speaker 22 So here's the weird thing, how I handled her that day and how we got to know each other afterward. And again, we don't agree on anything.

Speaker 22 She invited me into her last campaign. And I said to her, do you know who I am? Do you know what I believe? Like, what the hell?

Speaker 22 And I talked to her chief of staff saying,

Speaker 22 this is wrong.

Speaker 22 And she actually was serious about it.

Speaker 22 She wanted someone on the team to be a check, to be a challenge. She wanted that perspective.
And she felt that her own team wasn't doing it. So she said, I trust you.

Speaker 22 And trust is the most important thing you can have. And to me, it's the truth.
The truth, the relentless pursuit of the truth. We have to be engaged in that.

Speaker 22 And I said no,

Speaker 22 but I really appreciated the invite.

Speaker 22 And we still talked.

Speaker 22 I think you know this. Barack Obama on national television told House Republicans at their retreat.

Speaker 22 And he calls me from time to time.

Speaker 22 And they're all saying, so he begins the conversation by saying, I see Frank Lunt's right there. He's taking notes.
And at that moment, I'm freaking out because I am.

Speaker 22 He says, he's trying to figure out how to defeat me, how to make Nancy Pelosi look bad. And that's exactly what I'm doing.
And all I can think of is a camera behind me shooting my computer.

Speaker 22 So I reach over, pulled it down slowly so people wouldn't think I had anything to hide.

Speaker 22 And they're all cheering me. The House Republicans around me, way to go.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 22 And then he says, but you know, Frank and I talk. We have conversations.
I listen to him and he listens to me. And then the same people around me are now booing me.
Shame. How dare you?

Speaker 22 And this is the kind of relationship that I've had to American politics over the last 25 years. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we can't have really deep,

Speaker 22 philosophical,

Speaker 22 solution-oriented conversations over a meal, over a Coke Zero.

Speaker 22 It doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't engage.

Speaker 22 I'm going to out someone in this conversation.

Speaker 22 I've had some very serious doubts about where our country is going. And the person I shared that with more than anyone else wasn't a Republican.
He was Michael Bennett of Colorado.

Speaker 22 Because he had the same doubts. And I don't want to embarrass him or embarrass myself.
But those conversations were so meaningful to me. We would book sessions for 15 minutes that would go on an hour.

Speaker 22 My office knew don't schedule. When you go see Michael Bennett, Senator Bennett, don't schedule for an hour.
And this office finally figured out the same.

Speaker 22 So, governor, to a lesser extent, you and I have done that, to a much lesser extent. But in the times that we've gotten together, I listen to you.
I listen to your ideas. I listen to your solutions.

Speaker 22 I listen to your leadership. I read your speeches.

Speaker 22 And I frankly wish we'd known each other better, because where California goes, the rest of America america goes if we get it right here we're going to get it right nationwide and if we get it wrong here it's going to have an impact that's right i i appreciate you probing

Speaker 22 because that's a story i've never told publicly before i love it by the way do you remember what notes you were taking uh when when obama called you out yes it was what the republicans needed to say about pelosi And it's that she doesn't engage with America.

Speaker 22 She doesn't know America. She knows her Democratic friends in Congress.
And what do they know about America? I was trying to draw the distinction between a Washington Democrat, which I've always done,

Speaker 22 and an American Democrat who's

Speaker 22 out there in the real America, working for a living, making ends meet. That was the beginning of my playing around with the phrase paycheck to paycheck.

Speaker 22 And I was doing a whole list of all the things that Pelosi or Obama were saying that did not relate to America. And you know what? I never gave Republicans that list.

Speaker 21 Interesting.

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Speaker 21 Speaking of, you know, just that list and

Speaker 21 looking back as you study the effectiveness

Speaker 21 and Obama sort of in return, respecting the fact that you're a student of your craft, you're always, you're sort of open to argument, interested in evidence.

Speaker 21 When you look back over the last, you know, 40, 50 years, who do you think have been the most effective communicators and why? I assume Obama is on that list or is he not from your perspective?

Speaker 22 He is on that list and there's a specific speech that everyone, I ask everyone to read because it's the best speech I've ever seen a president give.

Speaker 22 And remember, I'm supposed to say Ronald Reagan.

Speaker 21 Yeah, I was waiting for that, Frank.

Speaker 22 It's not. It's Barack Obama's speech in Selma, Alabama, on the anniversary of what happened on the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

Speaker 22 And I had been made aware of this by John Lewis. And I'll tell you another story.
Again, by the way, all my stories

Speaker 22 are with Democrats, not with the Republicans.

Speaker 22 John Lewis invited me to join his trip, his civil rights trip, a few years before he passed away.

Speaker 22 And in every single location, in everyone who spoke, he came over to me, sat down, and told me why this was significant. And I kept saying to him, sir, you've got eight members of Congress here.

Speaker 22 You had Jack Kemp, who was the presidential candidate. You have far more important people.
Stop wasting your time.

Speaker 22 He puts his arm around me and I'm going to, I may, may get choked up.

Speaker 22 He says, because they're going to forget this place and you're going to remember it.

Speaker 22 Of all the people here, it's going to have the biggest impact on you. And so I need to have the biggest impact on you.
I'm not wasting time. This is an investment.
And you know what?

Speaker 22 I'm telling you that story now.

Speaker 22 It came true.

Speaker 22 I tell people repeatedly how essential it is for all of America to see Selma and Birmingham and Montgomery. Not to read it in the history books, not to see the documentary,

Speaker 22 but to go there and see it.

Speaker 22 And sir, I wish my voice was better because you're

Speaker 22 memorializing this.

Speaker 22 but that was the most impactful weekend of my political life

Speaker 22 and to open me up to things i did not understand it turned me into a mentor to a number of young african-american boys in some cases did not have fathers to direct them and who the hell am i to give them any advice to give them any wisdom

Speaker 22 but they stayed with me after that experience i knew what i wanted to do and they gave me the grace to say things I shouldn't say and to make mistakes.

Speaker 22 And I gave them the respect to teach me. And those young men are now in their early 30s.
And every one of them is successful. Every one of them is doing amazing things.

Speaker 22 And I would not have engaged them when they were 19 if John Lewis had not engaged me earlier in my career.

Speaker 22 So I have to admit, I don't know what the question was.

Speaker 21 In the spirit, and I love it. I mean, anytime we can talk about John Lewis

Speaker 21 is worth the time. But you were talking about Barack Obama and that moment and that speech and how you think that stood out to you as one of the greats.

Speaker 22 And there have been other ones that have been just like that. Tony Blair is to me the best speaker.
And he's not even American.

Speaker 21 Yeah, former prime minister, UK.

Speaker 22 And I've said this to him within the last 48 hours, that of everyone alive today, no one could have a bigger impact.

Speaker 22 No one knows and understands the global implications of where we are and what we're doing and how we need to get out of this mess before we make it any worse than Tony Blair.

Speaker 22 And my biggest political regret is that he was with the Labor Party

Speaker 22 and I couldn't work for them because I was a conservative. And in reality, it was what Blair's focus and what he tried to achieve is very similar to what I try to do.
He only does it 100 times better.

Speaker 22 And the effort that he's made in the Middle East and in Africa to try to bring about understanding,

Speaker 22 he's a statesman, statesman. So he would be number two.

Speaker 22 I want to give Corey Booker credit because so many of Booker's speeches are so impactful. And Westmore.
But let me give you one more. Again, on the Democratic side, and that's Mitch Landrew.

Speaker 22 Mitch Landrew is the single best, and you're not bad, but Mitch Landrew is the best retail politician I have ever seen.

Speaker 21 He's good. I agree.
I watched him.

Speaker 22 We're having lunch in a restaurant that's closed, and a woman comes in the door, and she is

Speaker 22 frail

Speaker 22 and frazzled and crying.

Speaker 22 And it's right around the inauguration. I've never seen anything like it.
And they're trying to throw her out of the restaurant. And Landrew sees this and says, wait a minute.

Speaker 22 He puts his arms around her and says, what's your name? Where are you from?

Speaker 22 How can I help you?

Speaker 22 And he calmed her down and he sat her down. He said to me, I need five minutes with her.

Speaker 22 And she left the restaurant and she was okay.

Speaker 22 And that's brilliant to me. Yeah.
Because that's rhetoric on a personal, individual, human scale. So Landrew is absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 21 I love that. So you've got to give me a Republican, Frank.
I mean, we're going to lose credibility here. Who's, I mean, you talked about Reagan.

Speaker 21 A lot of people have talked about the difference between a great communicator versus a great orator. Is that a distinction worthy of exploration? Is that a distinction that could be made?

Speaker 21 Even some have made it as it relates to Obama versus Reagan.

Speaker 21 What's your assessment?

Speaker 22 And you can't forget Bill Clinton either.

Speaker 21 And Clinton.

Speaker 22 And well, here's the amazing thing.

Speaker 22 Ronald Reagan changed hearts and minds.

Speaker 22 People went from being Democrat to being Republican because of Reagan. And that's why he deserves significant credit.
To me, Gingrich, when he was optimistic and positive, was incredibly powerful.

Speaker 22 And I have to go back to Jack Kemp. who's no longer with us.
Jack Kemp was an amazing orator because he saw the good and the great in America. He was about freedom.
He was about

Speaker 22 opportunity.

Speaker 22 Very much an economic communicator. And for the social issues and the cultural issues, for me, it'd be Bill Bennett, who's still with us.

Speaker 22 And the two of them, the three of them, Gingrich, Kemp, and Bennett communicated what was great and good about america we just don't hear it anymore obviously one of them has passed away one of them is essentially out of politics and the other one has gone full in on trump and lost some of what made him so unprecedented in terms of an intellectual mind better than anyone i ever met all right gingerch you're talking about yeah

Speaker 22 smartest elected official we've ever had and he never got a chance to to demonstrate it because the people around him

Speaker 22 and his own insistence on drawing a contrast between what he saw as good and evil undermined and eventually killed him as speaker and if you ask me what my greatest regret is personally it's not standing in front of him in a camera getting in front of him and saying sir don't say that it may be true It may be intellectual, but the American people are not prepared to hear it and they will turn against you if you say it.

Speaker 22 Newt was courageous in your face

Speaker 22 and he could have done so much

Speaker 22 more for the country

Speaker 22 if someone had just said, don't do this because it will hurt your reputation.

Speaker 21 So he's to you both and

Speaker 21 it obviously sort of marks that moment as you reflect on where our politics today and you can connect that. I'm curious, how much do you connect Bill Clinton's success to

Speaker 21 Newt Gingrich and that contract with America?

Speaker 22 Well, the best legislation that's passed in the last 30 years, and this is the public saying it, is welfare reform to force people on welfare to get jobs, to say to them, we will help you and we will not punish you.

Speaker 22 But the single best welfare program is a job that we hope will become a career. And that maybe, if you're lucky, will become a calling.

Speaker 22 And that you should not, if you're able to work, you should not be able to collect money because that's not fair to other taxpayers.

Speaker 22 And Gingrich pushed and pushed and pushed.

Speaker 22 Clinton backed away and backed away,

Speaker 22 accepted it, voted into law. And if you ask the American people,

Speaker 22 that was... the single best legislation of their lifetime because it did so much good for so many people.

Speaker 21 Frank, I'm curious, and it's interesting, just we can go down the welfare conversation, which is fascinating to me. And I don't mean just to move off it because I want to sort of reconnect and

Speaker 21 re-engage and a deeper understanding of what you said a moment ago about the need to have someone that can speak in those aspirational tones, that has a strategy that is not only engaging, but is willing to engage people across the aisle.

Speaker 21 You've referenced on multiple occasions, and I want to get back to Booker, but you referenced Corey as well. But I'm curious, are we in an environment where we reward any good behavior whatsoever?

Speaker 21 Or is this an environment where there's even the capacity to do what you suggest must be done?

Speaker 22 Okay, you're asking the correct question. I'm going to give you an answer.
That is correct, but it's not what I want to give, which is no, we're not.

Speaker 22 We're not in that environment. We punish people.
The kinder you are, the more we hate you.

Speaker 22 The more we think you're hiding something. The bigger your heart.
We ask the question, what's the most important attribute in a governor? Kindness and compassion comes in second to last.

Speaker 22 Intelligence is at the bottom also.

Speaker 21 Wow.

Speaker 22 We're rewarding bad behavior. We're rewarding people and we want accountability, which is good behavior.
We want someone who says what they mean, means what they say, and does what they say.

Speaker 22 That's all good,

Speaker 22 but that heart and that soul

Speaker 22 and that thing that's inside that allows us to feel people's pain.

Speaker 22 Not only do we not reward it, we even punish it.

Speaker 22 Even suggest that that makes us soft. I want to point out, because I would have forgotten and I would have been mad,

Speaker 22 your debate with Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 22 I'm on his side 90% of the time.

Speaker 22 And you out-debated him. You out-communicated him because you added a human development

Speaker 22 component to it.

Speaker 22 Your viewers should go back and watch that debate. Was it just one on Fox?

Speaker 21 Yeah, just one with Sean. Hannity, yeah.

Speaker 22 And Hannity was against you.

Speaker 22 You had the moderator against you. You had your opponent against you.
And you had an audience against you.

Speaker 22 Sir, you did incredibly well because you added the human dynamic to it, which is not going to get you nominated for president. It's not going to raise your approval rating for California.

Speaker 22 These are things that the public does not care about.

Speaker 22 The Democrats want you to beat up on Trump.

Speaker 22 They don't want you to, they're not asking you for a better vision. They want you to take him on and punch him.

Speaker 21 And guess what?

Speaker 22 That'll solve nothing. That'll get us nowhere.

Speaker 22 And so, the stuff that I do now, my the Republican side thinks I'm way too soft. Tucker Carlson calls me a traitor.

Speaker 22 And on the Democratic side, they don't trust me because they know where my background is. They know where my principles and my values lie.
Right.

Speaker 22 And yet I'm right in the middle. And I don't have a country.
I don't have people that I can get behind. Where's Joe Manchin now? He's out of office.

Speaker 22 The former governor of

Speaker 22 Maryland, Larry Hogan,

Speaker 22 Joe Lieberman, the great Joe Lieberman.

Speaker 22 John McCain, these are statesmen who are ridiculed and laughed at and condemned. And they were the best of America.

Speaker 22 And it's not a little bit of you, sir, and a little bit of me. It's that middle ground, the center of the screen, trying to get right there where we overlap.
We're not trying to get there now.

Speaker 22 We're all on the edges and it's destroying the country.

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Speaker 21 Frank, is that that because, I mean, society becomes how we behave. We are our behaviors.
And everything we've talked about has happened, quote unquote, on our watch.

Speaker 21 And I say that broadly, not as an elected official, but as

Speaker 21 a father of four that lives in this state and

Speaker 21 wants to see a better future for my kids.

Speaker 21 Who's responsible? Are we responsible? Are elected officials responsible? Is it something more insidious? Are the algorithms responsible?

Speaker 21 I mean, what's your sense of the moment? And

Speaker 21 how do we, I mean, we have to sort of, it seems to me, diagnose it more deeply to then begin to sort of work our way out of it. No?

Speaker 22 I'm not sure about diagnosing because I think we all know

Speaker 22 it's

Speaker 22 John McCain.

Speaker 22 When a woman stood up in a town hall and said that Barack Obama was a Muslim, McCain

Speaker 22 quietly and calmly and civilly said, no, ma'am, that's not true.

Speaker 21 It's a great moment. Great moment.

Speaker 22 In the debates between them, John, I remember in the 2008 Republican debate, that John McCain was cracking a joke about Hillary Clinton, saying that she wanted to spend a million dollars to celebrate Woodstock.

Speaker 22 McCain didn't support it. He didn't even get to Woodstock.
He was locked up at that moment. And everybody laughed.

Speaker 22 This is the, we've lost that kind of campaign right now. We demonize each other.

Speaker 22 It's social media, but it's more than social media. It's the fact that moms will not take away the phone, will not unplug the computer.
I say this to every parent watching or grandparent.

Speaker 22 Your child is getting addicted as we speak. Your child is losing the ability to make independent decisions and thoughts and engage human beings in a real way because they're stuck on the web.

Speaker 22 And you parents, don't disconnect that computer. Don't say you're not going to be on your phone.
And I know how hard it is to be a mom right now.

Speaker 22 I know that your daughter is going to say to you, I hate you. I'm not coming to dinner.
Better that she says she hates you than actually grows to do so because of social media.

Speaker 21 So you think at the core, I mean, that has in more ways on more days, that has more to say about why we're in this predicament that we're in.

Speaker 22 It's our behavior magnified 10 times by social media. And then, and I'm going to hold your, the woman who I think wants to take your job, I'm going to hold her accountable as well.

Speaker 21 You're referring to Kamala Harris.

Speaker 22 Yes. We all know how Trump communicates to people.
And I ask a very simple question, and I'm trying not to get canceled by him.

Speaker 22 But the fact is, you ask parents, you ask ask Trump voters, do you want your children to talk the way Donald Trump talks? And they say no.

Speaker 21 They love him.

Speaker 22 They want his agenda, but they don't want their kids to sound the way that he does. And I know his response would be, they have the most wonderful vocabulary.

Speaker 22 We've all put together videos of how he shoots down reporters. how he calls them dumb, how he says, it's not just a matter of being wrong.
You're an idiot using that language.

Speaker 22 We don't want our kids to talk that way, but we also want our kids to tell the truth

Speaker 22 and to tell us what's right about themselves, not what's wrong about the opposition.

Speaker 22 Vice President Harris never said what she was going to do in the first hour or the first day.

Speaker 22 Her ads against Trump were brilliant.

Speaker 22 And by the way, she beat him in the debate.

Speaker 21 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 22 She played him in the debate.

Speaker 21 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 22 And everyone thinks so, except Trump has polls that show that he won by 30 or 40 or 50 points.

Speaker 22 He never showed them. We never saw them.

Speaker 22 But Vice President Harris had the opportunity to offer a different vision, and she never did.

Speaker 22 She told us what was wrong about Donald Trump and never told us what was right about herself.

Speaker 22 So she bears some of the blame.

Speaker 21 You're the master pollster. Is that not what the polls said she needed to do in order to get out the vote?

Speaker 21 Or did you reflect differently on your own analysis that they were looking for a compelling alternative vision?

Speaker 22 They were looking for it in the polling. The public said they didn't trust her.

Speaker 22 If you don't trust her, there's a reason why. It's not that they thought that she was a liar.
It's that they didn't know where she was.

Speaker 22 They said this again and again in the CNN focus groups, in the stuff that was happening in the media polls that were being done. Not my stuff.

Speaker 22 Where does she stand on prices? What's she going to do? What is she going to do in immigration? What was her most famous comment during the campaign?

Speaker 22 It was her interview on The View, and she said, I wouldn't do anything differently.

Speaker 22 How can you say that?

Speaker 22 Joe Biden was AOL.

Speaker 22 He was not there. He was not present.
And there's there's nothing you would do differently. I recognize your need to be loyal.
I recognize your desire not to fracture the Democratic Party.

Speaker 22 But the American people were struggling back then, as they're struggling right now.

Speaker 22 And they needed to know what she would have done. And, Governor, I'm going to give you what she could have done.
It was three weeks from the election. She chose not to go on Joe Rogan.

Speaker 22 She never engaged with Stephen A. Smith.
These are people who listen to beyond traditional politics.

Speaker 22 They invited her. She didn't go.

Speaker 22 And in the end, she was on Anderson Cooper on CNN. And he begins the town hall with immigration.
And he's hostile to her. It's tough on her.
And she should have said, and I quote, Anderson,

Speaker 22 I could answer your questions. I can answer the questions of the American people sitting right in front of me right now.

Speaker 22 And I'm going to choose them. So let me do something I've not done before.

Speaker 22 Let me give you you five minutes on exactly what i'm going to do in the first hour what is the first piece of legislation i'm going to sign that i'm going to do the first day and she would have this conversation

Speaker 22 and then anderson would cut her off after five minutes and she turned to him and say no anderson i'm not done yet the american people have the right to know what i'm going to do and i have the responsibility to tell them

Speaker 22 And for the next 30 minutes, as he keeps trying to jump in, she keeps saying to them, y'all like this? Y'all want this? And of course, the answer would be yes.

Speaker 22 And so she'd have this personal one-on-one engagement with 100 people in the audience. Anderson trying to get in.

Speaker 22 And that would have elected her president.

Speaker 21 Do you really? I mean, do you think you're of the opinion? And I appreciate this.

Speaker 21 It's always so we're all, you know, looking back, you know, 107-day sprint and obviously the highlights, the view, everything else. And there's been so many diagnosis of what went wrong.

Speaker 21 Was her, you know, to your point about distinguishing herself a little bit from the president, obviously the amount of time, the fact there wasn't an open primary, more broadly beyond her, the incumbent penalty, which some had assessed, issues around immigration, inflation, interest rates, and Israel certainly played a role, I imagine, in some respects.

Speaker 21 But you think fundamentally this was an election where Vice President Harris could have won.

Speaker 22 Trump had 91 indictment counts against him. He'd been impeached twice.
He was now the oldest president to run for office now that Biden was out.

Speaker 22 And he had all these moments

Speaker 22 that one questions.

Speaker 22 By the way, eating the dogs, eating the cats.

Speaker 22 How the heck do you elect that?

Speaker 22 He stood behind it.

Speaker 21 He still won.

Speaker 22 And yes, he is a great communicator. He knows how to talk to his supporters.
But she blew it.

Speaker 22 And she should wake up every day thinking to herself, how did I lose to this guy?

Speaker 21 Well, I hope she doesn't do that. I want her to move on.
And we all do in context. But I think all of us need to reflect on what happened, what didn't happen.

Speaker 21 You were pretty pointed, weren't you, after that debate, not only that Harris won, but that potentially Trump lost the election that night on the basis of some of those comments.

Speaker 21 Were you, I mean, did you reflect? I mean, I've,

Speaker 21 was just your point. I mean, there was no movement in the polls, it seemed, regardless of Trump claiming he crushed it.

Speaker 21 And Harris, I think, objectively did, but didn't seem to move anybody.

Speaker 22 I never saw this before.

Speaker 22 Never in American history has a debate been less impactful on the election.

Speaker 21 And she crushed it. I mean, she really did.
I was very inspired. I was one of the spinroom people, so I'm paid to say that, as they say.

Speaker 21 But I really believe it. And the further distance I have, the more impressed I was with her performance.

Speaker 22 Therefore, therefore, the more critical you should be of her campaign

Speaker 22 on that night she won the election why did trump win by such a big margin it wasn't even that for modern days it wasn't that close why did he win michigan and pennsylvania and wisconsin and other states and arizona he won them because People thought he said what he meant and meant what he said.

Speaker 22 And while they didn't like how he articulated it, which is exactly what's happening right now, they wanted that agenda. Why did she lose when she had the election? She had more money than God,

Speaker 22 had an amazing debate performance that everyone saw. There was never another debate.
She'd gone into the lead there. Why did she lose? She lost because of herself.

Speaker 22 In the end, it's not just what's going on around you. You have to tell people what you are for.
You have to tell them what you will do.

Speaker 22 And you have to be able to show that you can get it done. I remember what a big deal it was when she was made the immigration czar.

Speaker 22 I was around. I saw this.
And then during the campaign, she tries to run away from it. Oh, I wasn't important.
I had nothing to do.

Speaker 22 Own it.

Speaker 22 Be sincere with people. Let them see you.
Acknowledge, as I'm doing right here, right now. I got that election wrong.
I knew Trump was going to win two weeks before,

Speaker 22 but I knew he was going to lose after that debate because no one had ever recovered recovered from such a bad debate performance. Governor,

Speaker 22 the public deserves the truth. The public deserves candor.
They have the right to know when we got it wrong.

Speaker 22 And if you can't admit you got it wrong, then you probably don't deserve to have your position.

Speaker 22 And they need to know what you're going to do so you don't get it wrong in the future.

Speaker 22 I think we've lost not just a sense of civility and decency, but I think we've lost what made America so great, which was this pursuit of the truth, to acknowledge that separate but equal was not equal, to acknowledge that we could be a more perfect union, the idea that we're always focused on doing better for our children and the next generation.

Speaker 22 And now we try to cover stuff up. And now we try to accept the status quo.
The same people who screamed and hollered about prices.

Speaker 22 and voted for Donald Trump because he thought that he would make their life more livable. Look at the stock market.
Look at 401ks.

Speaker 22 Those same people are saying, well, we need an adjustment in the stock market. It was too high.

Speaker 22 You couldn't afford your food and fuel. And now you actually want your retirement savings to be reduced because it's artificially high.

Speaker 22 We have to tell the truth just for once. I want to use the F word, but I don't because I want you to put this out.
Hang it on.

Speaker 21 It's been used often here, Frank.

Speaker 22 Yes.

Speaker 22 But I'm actually so serious now.

Speaker 22 Embrace the truth. Seek the truth.
Fight for the truth. And demand that people tell you it.
And when they say to you, they weren't wrong, make them prove it.

Speaker 22 And when you say to them, I've got a better answer, show me.

Speaker 22 Please.

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Speaker 21 All that being said, Trump voters, you've been doing the focus groups. You did the assessment of his first hundred days.

Speaker 21 With everything you just said, everything you laid out and the imperative of being honest and accountable and speaking truth.

Speaker 21 No one's moved. His base has not moved.

Speaker 22 Right.

Speaker 21 I mean, remarkably, despite their 401ks, despite the impacts on prices, the uncertainty as it relates to the tariff, and all the other sort of chaos that one would have otherwise expected, perhaps, but to, I think, the degree that certainly is alarming.

Speaker 22 Because they'll say to you, as they did, in a very articulate way,

Speaker 22 we want action.

Speaker 22 And Joe Biden was four years of inaction, four years of

Speaker 22 empty rhetoric without the intensity of getting it done.

Speaker 21 And they, Frank, and forgive me just for cutting you there, but they didn't see the Chips and Science Act. They didn't see the infrastructure bill.
They didn't see 400 bipartisan bills.

Speaker 21 They didn't see the Safer Community Act as it relates to gun violence and mental health. They didn't see the IRA.
They didn't see those as accomplishments.

Speaker 21 Is it because the rhetoric didn't back it up? Why was he, from your perspective, missing in action? Or were all those things trivial in the context of the American people?

Speaker 22 They're not trivial. And normally I try to look at the camera, but now I'm looking at you in my screen.
So I can see a reaction here.

Speaker 22 You actually hit it right on the head. They didn't see it.

Speaker 22 They didn't see the jobs from the CHIPS Act. They didn't see the roads getting built from the infrastructure.
They didn't see...

Speaker 22 efforts at accountability, all the things that you just mentioned. No, sir.
They didn't see it. They heard about it, but it wasn't in front of their eyes.
And what did they see?

Speaker 22 People coming over the wall, people coming across the border at night.

Speaker 22 New York City, where people were illegal immigrants were seen as murderers. That's what they saw.
They didn't see prices coming down. They knew the price of eggs.

Speaker 22 They knew the price of a gallon of gas. That's what they saw.
In your question, you actually answered it. They didn't see it.

Speaker 22 And this is a challenge for you in the last two years of your administration. If you want people to see how California's changed, they have to internalize it.
It's not enough for you to say it.

Speaker 22 You have to show them

Speaker 22 visually,

Speaker 22 and they have to believe that it's true.

Speaker 21 I love that.

Speaker 22 One more thing about Trump.

Speaker 21 Please.

Speaker 22 They supported his agenda and still do.

Speaker 22 They want an end to illegal immigration, and so they're willing to turn a blind eye if some people get kicked out who shouldn't be.

Speaker 22 They desperately want the U.S.

Speaker 22 on a level playing field versus China, so they're willing to support tariffs if that's what makes China give American products, American services, and the American workforce an even shake, which they do not do.

Speaker 22 No, they didn't see uh waste and they desperately want an end to wasteful Washington spending. They don't like Elon Musk with a chainsaw,

Speaker 22 but they do like the fact that agencies that cannot prove that they're delivering,

Speaker 22 they do want those agencies cut. That's why they support Trump, not for the execution, but for the agenda.

Speaker 21 So, Frank, what is your, you know, and I would love just in the limited time, just pivot a little bit, because I think what, you know, where we are and where we're going, I mean, I think about the reflect, you're reflecting on

Speaker 21 Harris's campaign a little bit and

Speaker 21 trying to seek some truth telling, particularly from the Democrats, to understand and own it.

Speaker 21 Where do you see the Democratic Party right now? And where do you see Donald Trump and the Republic?

Speaker 21 And

Speaker 21 perhaps separately, where do you see the Republican Party independent of Trump? And if I may, just to extend the long question,

Speaker 21 any advice for the Democratic Party? Any advice for the Republican Party independent of maga perhaps and trump and trumpism itself

Speaker 22 i have to start somewhere so we'll start with the democrats

Speaker 22 the public supports trump's agenda they just don't support the execution so tell me how you're going to address immigration but do so in a way that delivers better results

Speaker 22 how are you going to address the unleveled playing field between the U.S.

Speaker 22 and China that has genuinely hurt American manufacturing, but to do so in a way that guarantees that factories can open up here

Speaker 22 and where American, the workforce is respected for what it does.

Speaker 22 They do want cuts to wasteful Washington spending. They just want a scalpel and not a chainsaw.
So I'm looking for the Democrat who surrounds himself with the word better.

Speaker 22 who emphasizes we can do it better than that. We hear you.
We understand you. We know you're pissed off.
We know you want us to fight. Don't get mad.
Don't get even. Get ahead.

Speaker 22 Who focuses on leapfrogging the current resistance

Speaker 22 to, and it's not acquiescence. It's not Chuck Schumer at all.

Speaker 22 It's Hakeem Jeffries at his best. Because Hakeem Jeffries at his best offers

Speaker 22 solutions

Speaker 22 that will address Medicare and Medicaid,

Speaker 22 that seeks to hold Washington accountable without punishing the hardworking taxpayer.

Speaker 22 And in the end, and this is the great way to end the Democratic part, respects the hardworking taxpayer. Democrats just want to tax, you say you just want to tax the rich, the wealthy, the affluent.

Speaker 22 But every time you call for raising the death tax, for example, that punishes family businesses.

Speaker 22 Every time you set that number, the people who actually hire, who create jobs, are those who are successful. I live in a beautiful home in LA, as you know.

Speaker 22 I will only be here this year, maybe 25 days. And I really wanted to do this face-to-face because I appreciate you.
And I wanted to express that.

Speaker 22 You're going to be a leading Democratic candidate.

Speaker 22 Don't punish success.

Speaker 22 Find a way to share it.

Speaker 22 Find a way to spread it. But if you punish it, you'll never get elected because in the end, Americans will not support that.

Speaker 22 They do believe that we have a wealth gap that's out of control. It's one of the best democratic issues, this income gap.

Speaker 22 But they don't want to take the wealthy down. They want to bring the paycheck to paycheck voter up.

Speaker 22 And I don't think Democrats fully understand that.

Speaker 21 So you think it's a big mistake where Bernie and AOC are going in terms of just the oligarchy frame? You think it just reinforces

Speaker 21 a frame that you don't think is well, you know, is more broadly well received, despite polling, even your own polling or estimates saying 62, 3% of Americans support a wealth tax.

Speaker 22 It gets them, and someone was, you saw the presentation, because I'm in public about this.

Speaker 22 Yeah,

Speaker 22 it gets them noticed, gets them crowds of 20 or 30,000 people, which is a lot, and makes them relevant to the debate. But it doesn't get them elected president.
And that's the difference.

Speaker 22 And there needs to be someone who says, look,

Speaker 22 this is a great country.

Speaker 22 We just have a few of our, we need to fix what's wrong without undermining what's right about America. And that's not what they do.
They're too negative and they're too on the nose.

Speaker 22 And it will bring about significant Democratic support,

Speaker 22 but it will not put them in the overall office in 2028.

Speaker 21 You're reminding me of Bill Clinton's famous lines, nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what's right with America.

Speaker 22 Yes, and I believe that that's his line. I believe he wrote that.
And that's an understanding of where America is at right now, because we're very pessimistic.

Speaker 22 We believe the future is going to be worse than the present.

Speaker 22 We believe that the present is worse than the past, But we're not going to vote for someone who's inherently negative. We're not going to vote for someone who's going to take.

Speaker 22 We want someone who's going to give.

Speaker 22 And on the Republican side, there has to be a better message than we need to get even with them, than we need to punish them, because in the end, that does not bring the country together.

Speaker 22 There needs to be a message that says, yes, they got it wrong and you got hurt,

Speaker 22 but you're not forgotten.

Speaker 22 You're not ignored. And we haven't betrayed you.

Speaker 22 We will right this country. Remember, governor, it's the working class union voter that put Donald Trump in office and took that election away from Kamala Harris.

Speaker 22 It's the Latino who said you want to take all this. to help the black community.
What about us?

Speaker 22 Latino men voted Trump for the first time ever.

Speaker 22 These are fundamental changes that have not happened. And the last thing I'd say is among young men, they've come to see more in Trump that's better for their future than Vice President Harris.

Speaker 22 I don't know if it's what Trump got right. I don't know if it's what Harris got wrong.
But these are big fundamental shifts. that the Democrats have to address.
And I don't see them addressing it.

Speaker 22 This is why, and by the way,

Speaker 22 at your best,

Speaker 22 you address it.

Speaker 22 At your best, you talk about this and you engage it.

Speaker 22 You kicked DeSantis' ass in that debate. And I think he had the issues on his side.
They had the moderator on his side.

Speaker 22 But every time you go,

Speaker 22 and this is California. And

Speaker 22 we don't want to get into California, but this is part of the Democratic Party.

Speaker 22 You have a group of Democrats that get you to stand up and cheer and give you standing ovations, and you're pumping your fists in the air,

Speaker 22 and that gets you noticed, but that will not get you votes.

Speaker 21 God bless. And I want to end as I promised, as we began, and that's going back to Corey Booker.
You know, you were outspoken in your praise, and you've referenced it a few times in this conversation.

Speaker 21 That was a 25-hour marathon.

Speaker 21 Corey's,

Speaker 21 I consider him sort of extended family. I've known him forever.
He's an actual friend, not one of those political friends. So I have a strong bias towards him.
And he's just deeply sincere.

Speaker 21 I think he's a wonderful human being, most importantly. Forget politics for me.
My judgment is about the character of the person. So I loved the fact that you thought that was a special speech.

Speaker 21 But let's end. Why did you think that was a special speech? And what did it represent in this moment that you think needs to be more represented more broadly in moments to come?

Speaker 22 He told stories of real people.

Speaker 22 He told stories of real life.

Speaker 22 And he didn't just bash the president. He spoke in favor of them, of uplifting them, of celebrating them.

Speaker 22 Corey Booker has the most positive message for the country, which is not what Democrats wanted to hear in 2020,

Speaker 22 which is why he didn't get the nomination.

Speaker 22 My challenge to Senator Booker is: can you put that 25 hours into a bottle,

Speaker 22 have the guts to say, I'm not going to beat up on Trump. I'm going to tell you where we could be as a country, where we could be as a society.

Speaker 22 And I'm going to celebrate the positive that's America as I address the pain and the suffering.

Speaker 22 If he can do that with the discipline, of not getting drawn into Trump. And if Democrats realize that they're going to get elected in 2028 they rise or fall based on their own positions not trump

Speaker 22 based on their ability to do it better and more favorably and more hopefully and with greater celebration we don't celebrate anything anymore we condemn and we dismiss and we disregard and we hate

Speaker 22 if booker can be the can be the antidote to that

Speaker 22 he'll be the democratic nominee and he'll be the next president. And if he can't do it, maybe Mitch Lander can.
And if he can't do it, maybe Wesmore can. And if they can't do it, sir,

Speaker 22 maybe you can.

Speaker 22 But it's not taking the easy road.

Speaker 22 It's taking the better road.

Speaker 21 Well, what a way to end, Frank. Thank you for all your insight.
Thanks for the history. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 21 I'm very grateful for this opportunity.

Speaker 22 And, governor, the idea that this idiot from West Harvard, Connecticut, who flunked calculus as a freshman in college, who had trouble holding his first job, gets invited to have this conversation with the governor of California.

Speaker 22 What a life.

Speaker 21 Thank you. I love it.
What a life. I appreciate that, Frank.
Thank you. Thanks for being with us.
Cheers.

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Speaker 1 This is an iHeart Podcast.