And, This Is Former DNC Chair Jaime Harrison On Fighting For What's Right

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So we're talking a lot about the future of the Democratic Party, what the Democratic Party represents to people today, the brand that is the Democratic Party.

No No better guest than the former chair of the Democratic National Committee.

This is Jamie Harrison.

Yeah, we're jumping right in, brother.

At our table, what was the, I mean, was the idea was just to sort of create a relaxing environment where people feel they can really engage around the table, have tabletop conversations or conversations you'd have at the kitchen table?

Is that was the idea?

Yeah, the kitchen table, because for me growing up, you know, I was raised by my grandparents.

So at our table, all of the big decisions were made, but also all the real conversations were had.

And so

when my grandfather said, okay, everybody, sit down, let's sit down at the table.

That meant something in our house.

And sometimes, you know, at the end of each episode, I have this award I give.

I call it the Sit Your Ass Down Award

because sometimes my grandfather would say, boy, Boy, you better sit your ass down.

And then, like, you're a little too big for your brides.

Um, you're feeling yourself a little bit.

And so, every at the end of every episode, everybody gets to present who they would present their sit your ass down award to.

Uh, and it's been funny.

So, your grandfather was an outsized role.

My grandparents, so, so, governor, my mom was 16 when she had me.

Yeah,

And so, literally, my grandparents were my pseudo-parents.

My mom often says she got home from the hospital with me.

And, you know, in those days, you didn't have all those warnings that babies can't sleep in the bed with the parents and all.

But she said, I slept with my grandparents as soon as I got home.

And I was just, you know, their

seventh child, I guess.

And so

when my mom left South Carolina to try to find work, she went went to Georgia.

I stayed with my grandparents.

And eventually my mom got settled and she wanted me to come with her.

And I just decided to stay in South Carolina because I had created this,

my grandparents, I created this relationship.

They didn't have a whole lot of education,

but I was, you know, I was a gifted reader and I picked up stuff quickly.

So I would read their bills and all that other type of stuff while they took care of me, right?

So it was,

it was that type of relationship.

And so

they really were like my parents.

My grandma just passed away this right before Easter on Good Friday.

And man, that hit me hard.

It hit me hard because we were really, really close.

I love that.

What, I mean, did you ever, were you, were they, I mean, the tutelage they gave you, was it about?

social justice, racial justice, economic justice?

Was there a sort of a prism of service that they instilled upon you?

I mean, what was the journey from there to becoming the head of the damn Democratic Party?

It was hard work, right?

My grandfather had a fourth-grade education.

He paved roads and worked construction.

My grandmother had an eighth-grade education.

She picked cotton, cleaned houses, and then took care of the family.

And so, I mean, those, they were two of the hardest working people I've ever met in my life.

I mean, they worked, I mean, really fingers to the bone

and very, very humble, very giving, even though they didn't have a whole lot themselves.

If you ever came to the house,

you left with

a plate wrapped in tinfoil.

And, you know,

that's just who they were.

They love people and they love taking care of people and they would give their very last in order to do so.

And so that's how i picked up you know i am who i am because of them and it is you never give up you you have a tremendous faith in god as my grandma would say uh the lord will never put more on you than you can bear and um and so sometimes it may be hard sometimes you may have a a plan but that that's not his plan and so you just kind of focus on what you can control and what you can what you can do and you always treat people right you treat them the way that you want to be treated and so you know

they just encouraged me to just do better right do better than they did um

uh and they tried to do everything that they could to make sure that any opportunity that prevailed itself to me that i was able to take advantage of it and so uh you know And then, and then, Governor, I'm blessed because I had some,

I call them sort of guiding angels that popped into my life at the right moments.

You know, of course, my grandparents are there and my mom was there, but

there was one man, Earl Middleton, Tuskegee Airman.

He was the first black man to get a Colwell Banker Middleton real estate.

practice in the state of South Carolina in Orangeburg.

He was a state rep for a long time.

He was, you see, Mr.

Earl, he's this 6'2 ⁇ , 6'3, distinguished, sort of lanky guy, distinguished, always had a cigar in his mouth, either lit or not, or sometimes he would have a pipe.

And I met him my senior year in high school because I was elected mayor for a day in my high school.

And I got a chance to shadow the mayor of Orangeburg.

And so in shadowing the mayor, we went to a Kiwanis meeting.

And in the back, the mayor said, He pointed to Mr.

Middleton.

He said,

Jamie, do you know Mr.

Middleton?

I said, No, sir.

He said, I want you to meet him.

You need to meet him.

And so I went in the back.

I introduced myself.

Mr.

Earl was there with a cigar, not lit, but it was in his mouth.

And he shook my hand and said, Young man,

you seem like you got your head on right.

He said, I'm going to give you my card.

And if ever anything I can do to be helpful to you,

you call me.

So I kept it, put it on my dresser.

Fast forward, Governor.

I got in April 2nd, 1994.

I got into Yale.

First in my family to go to college, mind you, right?

Got into Yale.

They sent my financial aid package, almost a full ride, with the exception of about $2,500.

And, you know, nobody, $2,500 in my family at that time was like $25,000 or $250,000.

I mean, it was

the thought that we would get that is unbelievable.

And so then they said, well, you can get a personal loan.

Your parents can get a personal loan.

Well, my grandparents, their credit wasn't good.

They couldn't go to the bank and get a loan.

And so it got to the point where I didn't know where to turn.

And I saw that card from Mr.

Earl.

And I called him up and I said, Mr.

Earl, I met you a few months ago, Jamie harris i'm at ow uh i got into yale but i am 2500 short and i don't know what to do and if i don't find it i can't go so he said i want you to bring your letter to my office tomorrow you come there bring your letter and let's talk about it i did that

come to mr earl's office cigar in his mouth sitting back in his chair He read the letter.

He said, young man, I'm proud of you.

He said, this is what we're going to do.

You're going to work for me this summer.

You drive me around and you do whatever.

I'll make sure that you have the money to send there.

I'm also going to make sure you have a computer and whatever you need to start school.

So, Governor,

again, this is when, this is partly why I believe what my grandma said: that the Lord has a plan for you and things will happen when they need to happen and all.

Because in every step of my life, there have been people like Mr.

Earl that have stepped in.

It was Mr.

Earl, it was Jim Clyburn.

You know, I can come up with a number of folks along the road that have really like stepped in in those moments in which there've been nothing but despair or darkness.

And I didn't had no clue what the next step was going to be.

But guess what?

There's a step forward.

And so

I am blessed and highly favored.

And I am so grateful

to have been on this journey and to try to do the good things that I've tried to do.

God bless, Mr.

Earl.

And for everyone listening, I imagine those people like him, Mr.

Earl, that touched touched their lives and they're thinking about them right now.

I appreciate that.

What is, you know, when you got into, I mean, remarkable first in your family to go to college and here you are at Yale, which is next level.

I mean,

when did you really start to feel

the public service bug in particular?

Well, I, you know,

my interest in politics actually started when I was 12 years old watching Jesse Jackson speak at the 1988 convention.

And

it was not because I wanted to watch Jesse Jackson speak.

It's because in my grandfather's house, you watch whatever the hell he has on the television.

There was one TV.

And if he's watching, you're watching the same thing.

But I watched that.

And, you know, the Rev was talking that night, he was specifically talking to young people.

about hope and making the world be what it want what you wanted it to be and i really felt like he was talking to me.

One, to see a black man on that type of stage at that time

was just, you know, it was mind-blowing, you know, particularly coming from where I came in Orangeburg, South Carolina.

And so that just planted a seed in me about exploring and learning more about politics.

And then roll around 92 and Bill Clinton.

this man from the south the man from hope arkansas that same year jim claubburns running for congress the first black black he had the ability to become the first black man elected to congress since reconstruction the 1800s here in south carolina um and so i'm in high school and i'm just so interested i mean i i think i'm assuming i was a sophomore in high school at the time so i volunteered on the clinton gore campaign i volunteered to try to help cliburn Then Clyburn wins, Bill Clinton wins, and I'm just enthralled.

I mean, I'm really

like,

I caught the bug at that time.

And then I just never stopped.

I invited Clyburn to come to my high school to speak.

He actually was crazy enough to come.

He said, if a South or he is a young man from Orangeburg Wilkinson High School who has the gull to invite his congressman to come and induct him as the president of the National Honor Society.

He said, I wanted to meet him.

And he did.

And

I guess I was, he calls me the bad penny because he's just hadn't been able to get rid of me because

uh i asked him i wanted i said congressman i want to work in your office one day and he said well you need to go to college first and then he gave me an internship and uh then you know you know the rest is history i i went to law school and worked in his office at the same time

But I saw politics as the avenue to help people like my grandparents.

It really was.

And when I thought about all of the people who were really fighting for folks like them, people who didn't have a big voice themselves, but worked hard every day and got screwed over by the system.

I saw the political leaders in my community, Jim Clyburn and Earl Middleton, and folks like that, who were the folks that were helping.

And I saw that as the avenue to do something very similar.

And so I was interested in it.

And then, you know, luckily, I found people like Clyburn who taught me along the way.

Boy, you're, and, and we're going to talk more about Clyburn in a moment, but you brought me back to that moment in 1988.

I think it was a speech where Jackson,

I mean, one of the

great speeches because he talked about, I mean, the campaign didn't work out the way he intended to, but he talked about, you know, how this campaign had not been in vain.

And he said, if in my low moments where my grape has turned into a raisin, charge it to my head, not to my heart.

I remember that.

I'm like, oh, come on.

So good.

So paint a picture, so vivid.

And it was such a, it was, I love that you were inspired by that.

I was, as I was as well in 88.

And of course, you know, Bill Clinton and that, that, that 90, 92 campaign.

So we're, I think we're aged, we're tracking

similar times of life and state of mind, and I would argue quality of imagination.

And I want to get to that in a moment, but you, you found yourself at those moments being inspired by these leaders, by their example,

and anchored by your grandparents and these mentors that came into your life at the right time.

And

the pursuit in politics you took in a pretty profound way.

And I remember you coming on the national scene ubiquitously when you ran for the United States Senate.

I think at the time, and correct me, please, if I'm wrong, but I think it was one of the most invested in campaigns in U.S.

history.

It's like $132 million or something.

Is that right?

That's it.

We raised more than anybody else in a regular campaign.

I think Osoff, with his, after the

special elections and the runoffs, kind of topped that.

But we raised it in the normal campaign, $132 million.

And why was it?

And it's sinful.

It is actually sinful that you need that amount of money to run for office.

And we're going to talk about that in a moment because we're going to fast forward about

what may,

reflecting on the last few months and years, but in relationship to money and politics.

But I'm curious, just in that campaign, what was it?

Remind folks,

what was your why?

What was the, you know, was it, what was the burning desire to be in the United States Senate?

But also, why do you think that race galvanized the country and became so nationalized?

Why you?

Why the moment?

What do you reflect upon in terms of that Senate race?

Well, it really is interesting because I,

you know, yes, I was interested in politics and running for office, but I had no idea that I would ever run for the Senate.

let alone not run against Lindsey Graham.

I actually, for a long time, I actually thought of Republicans.

Lindsey was pretty pretty decent, right?

I think some of us,

I think there are plenty of us that, yeah, we consistently are disappointed in that respect.

Oh, yeah.

And so it really wasn't, it really wasn't until the Kavanaugh hearings

that the idea was planted.

And, you know, my wife and I were watching, my wife, who I married way, way, way up, but

who's a law professor at University of South Carolina.

And she and I were watching hearings.

And you remember that moment when Lindsey Graham does his Oscar performance, which,

my God, if you Democrats want power, so blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I sat there and I was just disgusted by it all.

And I remember chatting with my wife, and we were like, we got to find somebody to run against this guy.

And I remember the pause, and it was like,

well,

aren't you somebody?

And I don't know if she was joking or whatever,

but it sort of planted a seed in my head.

And I just started toying with the idea.

Well, maybe, maybe,

maybe.

And then eventually,

an exploratory committee came up because

one of the things that I realized with Lindsey is that he had changed.

He was no longer the person who was focused on improving the lives of the people in South Carolina, no longer the person who was focused on working across the aisle to try to get things done.

Because that's, you know, that's what the Lindsay that I knew from working in Jim Carmen's office.

That if anytime we needed to work with a Republican in the delegation, we could always work with Lindsay in order to get something done for South Carolina.

That was the magic that

Strom Thurman and Fritz Hollins, who were our two senators before, always had.

That, yes,

they would fight to see who could do more for South Carolina.

Even though they were Democrat democrat and republican they would fight to see who could get more done

and so but that lindsay was no longer this was a lindsay who was so focused on his own power and his own stuff that he had forgotten the fact that in this great state of ours you know we have 15 of 46 counties with ob gyns that in this state the because republicans refused to expand medicaid five or six of our rural hospitals have closed that there's no broadband that was in many of our rural counties.

And the question is: well, who's actually going to go to Washington, D.C.

and stay in the Senate and fight for those people?

Not fight to get in front of a damn TV camera, but actually fight for the people to improve the quality of lives that these folks have.

Because we got a governor, and you'll find this as you come to South Carolina more.

There's an area in South Carolina called the Court of Shame.

Think about that.

Think about having a whole area, a group of counties, mostly black, majority black counties, that's called the quarter of shame, where the schools are falling apart, where the water is not clean.

And so

we needed somebody in DC who was going to fight for us.

And we weren't getting that from, we got it from Jim Clopbern in the House, but we were not getting that equivalent in the United States Senate.

And I decided, you know, if not,

if not me, you know, I just needed to step up.

And so that's what I did.

Did you take away anything, something indelible, lessons learned in that process?

What did you, what was, if you distilled sort of the essence of that experience, does it come down to a single sentence or does it come down to sort of a thought?

Well, Governor, there was.

You know, I reflect on that race a lot.

I mean, there were so many curveballs.

One, COVID,

which really

upset how we did the campaign.

We wanted to put together the largest field operation in the history of the South Carolina Democratic Party.

And we had the resources to do it.

But because of COVID, we didn't want to expose people,

we weren't able to do that.

So we had to do all TV and all that.

And that's not the way I would run a campaign.

And then the October surprise when RBG passed away, Justice RBG, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, that that then gave Lindsey Graham the opportunity to chair the appointment.

So that was my October surprise.

We had him on the defensive.

You remember he was crying on Fox News.

Oh, yo, please send me a contribution because they're killing me down here.

We literally literally and people listening, literally.

Yes.

Yes.

I mean, I mean,

we were kicking his ass.

I mean, on the debate stage on everything, every metric, we were outdoing this guy who had been in the U.S.

Senate for a long time, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.

But then, when he got that opportunity to chair that hearing, it changed, it put me on the defensive and it changed the dynamics of the race.

Because now, here he's being a champion of conservatives.

He's getting this conservative woman on the court.

And it literally, we saw it in our polling, like it swapped.

So,

but the thing that I took from that is that, yes, we ended up losing,

but

governor, we ended up getting 1.1 million people to turn out and vote for a Democrat.

That has never happened in the history of South Carolina.

The most before was Barack Obama, and he got about 800 and some thousand folks to vote.

We came 50,000 short of the vote total that Donald Trump got four years prior when he beat Hillary Clinton by 13 points.

And so,

you know, we put some cracks in that wall and we gave people hope.

And particularly, I think if the kids in South Carolina could vote, I would be the senator right now.

Because most kids, parents come up to me in the airport and they say, my son or my daughter absolutely loved you because they saw all your ads on YouTube.

But we gave people a hope that

we could actually send somebody to Washington to fight for them.

And so much so now that some folks are calling me now and saying, well, why aren't you running against Lindsay?

Or why don't you run for governor?

But, you know, one of the things that I have also learned is that you also have to put your family first.

And for six years, I have been running hard to help a lot of folks, you know, two years running for the Senate, four years as DNC chair.

And then sometimes you realize that you also need to spend some time at home.

And raising two black boys in this type type of atmosphere, it's really, really important.

My dad was not there in my life.

And so it's just really important for me that I'm there for my boys.

I love that.

And I want to talk about your family in a moment, but let's talk about this larger family, the Democratic Party.

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You know, so you referenced, you went from the Senate, and that opened up.

So all of a sudden, once a minds is stretched, never goes back to its original form.

You've nationalized your name ID.

You're ubiquitous on TV.

I remember every damn night you were on some, I mean, literally, when I say every night, forgive me, on every cable network, there's that Harrison guy again.

Big round head.

Unbelievable.

Really?

Another $3.

I got to send this guy.

It wasn't even three.

I think you were calling for real, some

more significant numbers from folks like me.

But you decide to jump, put your hat in.

Was this, again, your inspiration?

Was it your family?

Was it your wife again saying, come on, Jamie, let's not give up.

Let's get to DC by another route.

Let's run for the DNC.

How the hell that happened?

Well, it actually happened the night of my election.

President Biden called me and they had called our race probably about eight something or whatever.

And I get this call undisclosed.

And I'm getting ready to move to go to concede to Lindsay.

And I'm driving over to

the place where we're having our

after the election party.

And there's this number and I pick up and it's Joe Biden.

And he says to me, he said, Jamie,

we don't know what tonight we'll end up on the presidential level, but I wanted to call you about your race.

And I just want to say, one, I am proud of you.

I'm grateful that you ran.

And I want you to know when we pull this off,

I need you to be a part of my team.

He said, I don't know what it is, but I need you to be a part of my team.

And I was so heartened by that.

You know, my heart was broken because of losing my my race but i was so heartened and again that's classic joe biden and why i love joe biden as much as i do

because here's this man who is focused on he doesn't know whether or not he's going to win or not right he's still waiting to see the results yeah but he is so focused on seeing other folks and saying you know i'm not going to leave you behind i i want you to be a part of my team if i'm there you're going to be there with me um and it's it's part of the love that i have have for Joe Biden because he's a very special person.

And so, really, it was that, you know, that was the seed.

And then, you know, Clyburn asked me, he said, you know, the president told me he called you and this and that.

What do you want to do?

I said, well, whatever he wants me to do.

And so he's, you know, I had run for DNC chair back in 2016 after

the Hillary loss.

And I didn't, of course, I didn't win, but I helped Tom Perez prevail.

So I had already been the associate chair of the DNC for four years.

And so,

you know, I said, well, you know, I can do the DNC.

I know how to do party building.

And so that just became sort of the avenue.

And the president and his team asked me to do it.

I think it was that December or early January.

And,

and, you know, I, when the president calls, as you know,

the only answer is yes.

And so I, you know, it's a, it's a hell of a journey to be on, to be the head of the Democratic Party.

And for those that are wondering, I mean, the DNC, the National Democratic Committee, what is it?

I mean, are you de facto?

Because I get this question all the time.

Who leads the Democratic Party?

And people say, well, is it the DNC?

And wait, no, is it Jeffries?

Is it, you know, is it the ex-presidents?

What, what do you, I mean, what did you, your position at the time, positioned with the support of the president, the incoming president of the United States,

is he the head of the party?

Is Jamie Harrison the head of the party?

What is the DNC?

Explain it to people, what it means and what it's not, perhaps too.

Well, Governor, the DNC is different.

And the role of the DNC chair is different when you have the White House and when you don't have the White House.

It is almost like two different organizations.

And the responsibilities for the chair are also very different.

When you have the White House, the president is the head of of the party.

I mean, and you are an able lieutenant.

It's almost you are the DNC is seen.

Now, the question is, should it be seen like that?

And that's for another discussion.

Well, we're going to talk about it today, Jamie, because I want to discuss that.

Because I think it's an interesting question, but keep going because this is

really important.

Really important.

Well, the DNC traditionally has been, when you have the White House, is an extension of the White House.

It is a political arm of the White House

because the president is seen as the head of the party.

And so you really, as the chair, you get your mark.

And it's very similar to the cabinet secretaries, right?

Where the folks in the White House make decisions and then they call and they pick up the phone and they tell the secretary, well, we're going to do this.

And so that means for the secretary, you got to do this.

It's also the same thing at the DNC.

You know, the folks at the White House make the call in terms of where the major expenditures go, what we're doing in terms of party philosophy.

That is not to say that you don't have any input.

And depending on the White House, how much input you have changes, right?

There are some White Houses that lean very heavily on their DNC and the DNC chair and

weigh the input.

And there's some who don't, right?

Who don't see the DNC as much?

to invest in and they do other things.

And so,

you know, my role was to make sure that the trains keep running in terms of all the things that the DNC really is responsible for.

And that gives folks a sense.

You know, the DNC is one slice of a pie in the Democratic Party ecosystem.

Just one slice of the pie.

We don't control all things that are Democratic Party.

We only control that sliver of the pie that we have.

And that is influenced by the White House in terms of what we do with that sliver that we have.

So the Driple which is the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, focuses on the House.

The DSCC Senate Campaign Committee focuses on the Senate, and they all have chairs.

The DGA, which you are a part of, is the Governors Association.

They have their own chair.

And so, all of those in every other little position, mayors, lieutenant governors, attorney generals, secretaries of state, they all have their organizations.

And we try to work together as a collective.

I used to try to convene a meeting of what I call the sister committees, and that's the big

DGA, the D TRIP, and the DS, and then the cousin committees, which are the more junior ones, right?

So that we could align ourselves in terms of message and direction and to let each other know where we're going on certain things to try to iron out anything that happen.

That is not something that is mandated, but it's something that I wanted to do as DNC chair.

So I got a sense of where

the ecosystem and what the pie looked like um

we had in our four years the biden administration was

uh

the president was probably one of the most pro party presidents that we've had in a long time interesting believe fundamentally in in investing in the parties and that's why we invested probably uh i not probably at that time we invested more than any other dnc had in terms of state parties and trying to rebuild the organization.

And that's because of Joe Biden.

And I give him full credit for that.

Now, some of the people in his universe at the White House did not always make it easy in terms of doing the things that I thought we should have been doing in order to strengthen the party, to rebuild the party's brand,

to really engage in the social media aspect.

There are a lot of plans that I had early on, Governor, for, you know, I wanted to create

a YouTube channel that I call DTV that would have been focused on the Democratic Party and having us tell our own story, our own highlighting our successes,

getting different people that showcase the diversity of the party out there on social media where people are getting their information from.

But I was told,

that's not a big priority right now, right?

I had a study on rebuilding the brand of the Democratic Party because as somebody ran for office myself, I saw that our brand was broken, right?

But they tarred me as somebody who believed in defunding the police.

When my grandfather was my

grandfather on my stepdad's side, was a police, was in the police department for 30 plus years in Detroit.

I'm the last damn person that would defund the police, right?

Because I understand the importance of policing in our communities and good policing, right?

But that I was tarred with that, even though that was not my position.

That's Picard.

Basically, when your brand's broken, they can put whatever the hell they want on you, right?

And so I wanted a study and I didn't want, I did not want political people to do the branding study.

I actually tried to get people who from the nonprofit and the corporate space who understand brands like because, you know, their livelihood and their money is.

built on a good positive brand to come in and look at the political brand and give a different set of eyes on it.

I was told, no, we're not going to spend time on that.

So, and it wasn't from the president, it's some of the people sometimes in the president's bubble who think they know better, but in essence,

probably should just listen to some of us that are on the ground.

But I'll leave that for another day.

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It's interesting.

So, I mean, because we can fast forward and talk about the brand, the Democratic brand today is more.

Some have argued people don't like the word toxic, but when you see 27% approval in early this year in an NBC poll, 29%, which was a high watermark at the time and a CNN poll, and people feeling we're out of touch, we're weak, we're not quote unquote focusing on their priorities, we're focusing on the elites, or we're focusing on being more quote unquote politically correct.

It's interesting to hear you reflect on aspects of that that you were battling prior.

But again, as sort of an incumbent party with an incumbent president, your role in relationship to the White House is radically different than being out of power.

Because

the expectation is for you to focus on the president, on the White House, and everything else sort of falls by the wayside.

But luckily, you know, again, with Joe Biden and Camel Harris, they really wanted to extend that bubble out some.

But sometimes the people in the universes that you are dealing with, because you're not always dealing with the president and vice president, because they got much bigger fish to deal with but but the people who are that layer between you and them

sometimes they are they're constantly getting you back to focus on just that and not on the greater universe and what i believe needs to happen in terms of reforms is that the dnc can't just focus on the white house has to focus on the entirety of the party and and it has to be all the time not just and that's not to say that you do less for the white house no i'm not saying that whatsoever.

But what I'm saying is you can't put everything you got on just the White House.

Because if you lose state houses, if you lose governor mansions, if you lose attorney generals, we all see how important those roles are now when you don't have the White House, when you don't control Congress, right?

That is the front line in terms of defense for democracy and the livelihood

of so many Americans right now.

And if we had not spent some time and energy and resources on that right now, we really would be up shit's creep, right?

But,

you know, and I'm grateful to the president and the vice president for pouring the resources in so that we could be helpful to the other entities, the other parts of our party.

But I think we could even be in a much stronger situation had we done even a little more.

And I think, you know, going forward, there needs to be some buffer between the White House and the DNC to allow the DNC to really flex that muscle fully

and to invest across the ecosystem and not just focus on 1600 Pennsylvania.

I appreciate it.

So you reflect.

I mean, you inherited an incumbent.

I mean, in this case, you were tapped by a president-elect.

You inherited that.

that mantle sort of incumbency, different mindset, different relationship to the White House, different relationship in terms of the expectations, particularly staff had in terms of how their agenda was being reflected in your agenda at the DNC.

I reflect, you know, Howard Dean, a 50-state strategy under President Obama, the OFA sort of played a role.

And,

you know, you just, for those that are watching, you saw, you said

thumbs down

the OFA is, and I think President Obama would tell you this.

That was one of the worst decisions that administration made because what it did was it crippled our state parties.

You know, when I became under Howard Dean, and I sort of see myself as a Dean acolyte, the 50-state strategy was brilliant.

And it was not an idea of Howard Dean.

It was actually created by the state parties who forced Howard Dean to adopt it when he

bottom up.

Bottom up.

Bottom up.

And so, but it was brilliant because what it did was it invested resources in state parties.

It invested in organizers on the ground in these places, people who could disseminate the message and connect with the grassroots operations across the country.

And as a result of doing that, we won and we won big.

In 2006, I was the ED of the House Dem caucus in the House of Representatives.

And Jim Clopman was one of the few members of leadership that supported Howard Dean and 50 State Strategy.

That year, Dean and Rah Emmanuel went at it.

Rahm Emmanuel cursed Howard Dean out, told him to cut the fucking check,

write the damn check and this and that.

Like he wanted $5 million from the DNC, but Dean stuck to his guns and kept that money flowing into the state parties.

That year, we picked up seats in the House that was not on the DCC

target list, but what were seats in Kansas and other places that we never thought we would have won, but we did because we had the money on the ground and invested.

And I thank you, governor, because you understand that.

You have been investing in red states across the country.

And that is so key for

the next phase in the battle.

We have to grow.

We have to stop ceding territory to the Republicans.

And we got to start growing the pie.

And the only way you do that is in investing places, even if you don't win right now, it's about a long-term investment.

And you see that.

And I want to applaud you for that because it has been so helpful.

I go to some of these states and they tell me, Governor Newsom, my party here in South Carolina, we want to thank Governor Newsom for his investment.

He sent out an email that raised them, you know, X amount of money.

Arkansas, they're thankful for you.

I mean, I can go down the red states.

The old Confederacy, thanks you, governor, because you have been investing in those states.

And that's what we need more of in this party for people to see the long-term value of doing that.

But that's what Howard Dean did.

That is not what happened during the Obama administration.

I give Tom Perez credit because he tried to go back to that once he became DNC chair.

But you see the difference is Tom,

well, going even before, Ron Brown,

Howard Dean, Tom Perez were all DNC chairs without the White House.

Yeah.

Right.

But when you have the White House, it's very different.

And so part of the reason why we were able to beat back the red wave was because we did something that traditionally does not happen when you have the White House.

We invested significant resources on the ground a year ahead of time in many of these states over you're talking about just so people

and jamie just you're talking about so people understand you wildly outperformed as dnc chair the biden administration as an incumbent president

in that midterm uh you broke with all i mean historical trends and and and you're saying that was not just a fluke.

That was not just happenstance.

That was because you did what again that's because we invested unprecedented resources on building ground operations we had the largest voter protection program in the history of the dnc um uh in that midterm election um we i mean we literally had laureates all across the country being prepared because we knew the uh the the the hijinks that were going to happen with Republicans.

We had

we did voter registration for the first time in 20 years.

The voter registration had been outsourced out to

C4s instead of being in-house at the DNC, right?

So we did that.

We put boots on the ground in all of the battleground states a year ahead of time.

North Carolina and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Nevada.

And as you saw, we won almost, I think we won almost all of those governor's races.

I think we won all of those governor's races that year in all of those battleground states.

Katie Hobbs in Arizona.

Yeah.

We just said we struggled in Nevada.

Nevada was the exception.

Yeah, Nevada was the exception.

And so we just outperformed.

And it was the best midterms election for a Democratic incumbent, I think, since the 1930s, when you take a look at it.

And we worked hand in glove with our friends at the DGA, at the DCCC, at the DSCC.

And I think I would even go on to say that part of the reason fast forward in 2024 that we didn't get wiped out in some of those other, in those same battleground states, right?

Even though the vice president lost the presidential race in Arizona, in Nevada, in Michigan, in North Carolina,

we still won Senate races there.

We still won down ballot races there.

And you know, normally if the top of the ticket loses, everybody loses.

But the question is, why did we, yeah, North Carolina is a perfect example.

Why did we lose the presidential North Carolina, but we won the governor's race, we won the lieutenant governor's race, we won attorney general, we won superintendent of public instruction, we won a Supreme Court race.

It's partly because of the resources and the infrastructure, and a great state party chair, Anderson Clayton,

that we were able to invest in those areas so that it's not so much just reliant on that presidential race, but Democrats can have their message.

We can organize,

we can disseminate.

And so we saw that across the board.

And I think part of that is build infrastructure, Democrats.

If you build infrastructure, it can outlast whatever you have, the dynamics you have on the presidential level.

And you can still have Democrats win and be successful on a local level.

And you also had Democratic values on the ballot that were successful.

I think one of the most interesting to me is Missouri, where I think it was plus 20 Trump.

Don't quote me, but I think it was plus 20.

But we won Amendment 3 on abortion.

We won the $15 minimum wage, that same ballot that went plus 20 for Trump, one abortion, one on $15 minimum wage, and one on paid sick leave, which begs the question around the party's challenge with positions versus messaging.

There's this notion that, well, the reason they're so unsuccessful from the swing state and national perspective is that we're not aligned on the issues.

Do you reject that?

Was Missouri an anomalous?

Were these down ballot issues just because of your successful infrastructure investments, but one-off one time?

Or do you think the party's positions are still majoritarian positions?

Or do you think we need to reflect on what just occurred and begin to truly have a forensic on where we stand on some on a majority or even just even if it's a minority of key issues uh facing the american people well governor i think part of it part of it is on the issues and i think we've always been there i think the american people are where the democratic party is as it relates to issues as it relates to education and health care uh equality for all i think those are they're our our values are mainstream values as it relates to that I think the disconnect is that people don't are not always associating those issues with us or our candidates, right?

And I think that's part of the party brand.

I think what you have been hitting on and what you have done so well on is to show

that

because what people are looking for, they're looking for somebody who's going to fight for them.

They're looking for somebody who's going to fight for them and their family and their community.

Somebody who is not scared to roll up their sleeves and get a little dirty, right?

Somebody who is not afraid to give as good as we get, right?

Um, and and

this is part of the brand issue, particularly.

And I saw it with you know, people say, Well, you didn't see the black men and the Latino men.

I've been ringing that damn bell for four

years, four plus years, because as I went to barbershops, as I crisscrossed this country and I sat down with Latino men in Florida or black men in Milwaukee, like

the things that they don't like about our party right now is

they see us as soft.

They see us as weak.

They see us as not standing up.

And they, even though they disagree with Donald Trump on the issues, they see him as strong in that sense, willing to fight and to roll up his sleeves.

And I've been saying this for now four years.

And you can talk to some of my staff and they'll be like, yep, the chair's been talking about that.

But governor, that is what we have to change.

Nobody's going to give you their vote if they think you are just going to lay over and allow somebody to run over you

anytime.

They'd rather just stay home, right?

They'd rather not.

And it wasn't so much that people were going out and voting for Trump.

Sometimes they just like, shit, I'm not going to vote for either one of you because I don't like where Trump is.

Like, he's an ass, and y'all are weak as hell.

So, why am I going to stand up and vote for you, right?

We got to get out of this academic cerebral thing that we get into in our party and understand that most people, when they go and they go vote, they are not thinking, what is the policy?

I didn't read the policy paper from the Democratic Party or the Republican.

People don't give a shit about that.

It's about people vote with this and this.

It is the heart and the gut, right?

It is, do I feel like you actually have heart enough to fight?

Do I feel in gut that I trust you to fight, right?

It is not, I'm doing this policy analysis analysis and this chart to see which one is the best one and which is rational and and all that no people don't average people aren't doing that and so what we have to do as a party is to find our spine again and to fight to fight for folks so you pushing back against donald trump that is that is a demonstration to so many people like on this redistricting like hell if you're gonna go this way i'm going this way if you want this to be a street fight fight, well, damn it, I'm going to pick up my shoe or brick or whatever I have to do because I'm going to street fight.

This is going to be a street fight.

And yeah, I might get my ass kicked, but guess what?

People are going to look at you and say, Well, you got yours kicked too, right?

Like, we got to get into that because that's what people want right now.

And I think when we get people that, man, we're going to blow out all of these elections because we're right on the issues.

We just got to be tough enough to fight for them.

I love it.

And

it just, by the way, just full disclosure, could not agree with you more.

I mean, this notion of weakness goes to trust, goes to character,

goes to our conviction.

It's foundational.

And it's so, it's, you know, you remember the old, I thought Bill Clinton summed it up beautifully when we got shellacked in one of those midterm elections.

I can't remember which one.

He said, given the choice, given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right.

Yes.

And this notion of strength is so important.

And you see that reflected in the Democratic brand appearing to be weak.

And so I could not agree with you more.

The importance, the imperative of demonstrating strength, showing it, strength of conviction, having the courage of our convictions.

And no longer, to your right, just the cerebral, here's our 10-point plan, as opposed to where the hell do we stand

on these issues.

It's Archimedes.

Give me a place to stand and I'll move the world.

And I think the Democratic Party needs that.

And I appreciate you had the dirt road Democrats.

You were focusing on that framework around rural votes.

You've been out there.

It's interesting.

People don't know that about your tenure

as chair of the party.

But I think picking up that mantle right now is essential.

So it begs the question.

Ken Martin's in there.

You've probably given him a lot of advice, given public advice, but probably sparingly.

But you've certainly given him private advice.

Tell our listeners what it was, Jamie.

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Yeah, you know, Ken has been a dear friend for a long time.

He and I became state party chairs around the same time.

He got in, I think, a year before me.

So he understands what state parties need right now

in order to move forward.

You know, my advice to Ken really is, sis, it is,

you know,

stick to your guns in terms of investing in state party infrastructure because that it is how we won in 06.

And I believe 06 is echoing 20, 2026 will be an echo of 06.

I really do believe.

I believe that you remember in 2004, we got our

teeth kicked in.

They won the John Kerry lost.

Lost the popular vote.

We lost both houses.

Yep.

We were toast.

Everyone was talking about going to Applebee's or something.

It was over.

It was, you know, we all needed it.

Yeah.

And it was that we were too elite.

We were too this, too that, 100%.

That's exactly right.

And what happened then is you got republican overreach and you see that right now george w bush tried to privatize social security you saw backlash in terms of the iraq war uh people did not feel good about the direction that republicans were taking us i think you see reflections again an echo right now republican overreach on the redistricting republican overreach in terms of the big bastardized bill that he just passed.

Like you see moving forward in a way that American people don't like.

I think the other leg of that stool was an investment in state parties that we never saw before with Howard Dean's 50 state strategy.

Canada just announced what I believe is taking what I did and put it on steroids.

I mean, small states like South Dakota will get $22,500 a month from the DNC starting this fall.

That's a game changer for a state.

I love that.

That's great to hear.

And then the last component of that leg is a massive, you know, focusing or two other legs, focusing on the culture of corruption.

We see that culture of corruption right now.

Nancy Pelosi talked in 06.

I got tired of hearing that phrase culture of corruption.

She hit that

bell.

And by the way, we thought it was bad in 06.

Give me a damn break.

This is next level corruption.

I mean, it's unprecedented in U.S.

history.

The graft, the corruption of this president, his family, what's going on is jaw-dropping.

Jaw dropping.

So again, it's another echo of 06.

And the last component is, if there is a blue wave to be built,

you can't win a big wave if you don't have somebody to ride it.

You've got to recruit people in every seat.

And I don't care.

All 435 districts.

in Congress should have a Democrat running for it.

I don't care how hard it is, every single one.

Every governor's race should have a Democrat running for it.

I don't care if it's a state that we haven't won in 25 years.

We need to have somebody.

We need to give people an option.

And then we got to recruit candidates that are fighters.

We got to recruit people who were willing to roll up their sleeves and said, yes, you know, this is David versus Goliath, but guess what?

David won.

Right.

So let's do that.

And if we do that, governor, I believe we will take back the house.

We will have a shot at the Senate.

We'll win some governor's races that people like, oh shit, what the hell happened?

Because it will be too much for them to try to play.

Like they're going to be playing whack-a-mole because all of a sudden the American people are going to explode and say, we want change.

We want something different.

We are tired of the Republicans.

And so I've told Ken, focus on those things.

Make sure you invest in state parties.

Make sure you really get the state parties to recruit up and down the ballot.

Don't leave anything open because even the down ballots can help the top of the ticket, right?

Now you got somebody running locally, you add a few hundred thousand, a few thousand votes here, a few thousand votes there, you close the margin on a statewide basis and you give the top of your ticket a shot.

So,

you know, if we follow the recipe and we look back to our history in 06, I think it really could give us

a roadmap for winning in 2026.

It's really interesting.

So let me let me unpack this a little bit and I want to stress test it and then I want to challenge you on

a couple

of small but significant issues.

It's really interesting.

We're about to pick up Virginia's governor's race.

So we're going to have net one there.

We're going to hold with great, by the way, two extraordinary Democratic candidates

in not just Virginia, but also New Jersey, which I think is a proof point at this moment.

I think about 04 a lot.

because I couldn't agree.

I love that you brought it up and you said it in the context of 06.

But it's what happened in 04 that you may have omitted, but not intentionally, because you laid out brilliantly everything that was done from the DNC and from the Democratic Party infrastructure.

But there was a lot of also civic infrastructure.

You had Democracy Alliance that emerged.

You had Center for American Progress that really started to get more muscular and emerged.

You had media matters holding folks to account that were also principled and part of this.

And all of a sudden, someone by the name, because we forget at the time, she was potent.

She was precious to all of us out here.

She was in my district, Nancy Pelosi, but she became Speaker Pelosi in 06.

And out of nowhere, some guy named Obama wins the presidency in 08 with 53% of the vote, more than any other presidential majority since 1964.

That all happened after 04.

And instead of rolling over, instead of giving in to fear, cynicism, and anxiety, we started that rebuilding.

All of us, not just the party, but we, the people, and these civic organizations started organized.

So I say all that because I love what you just said.

It reminds me that we should maintain our optimism and our discipline at the same time.

But part of the discipline is also, Mr.

Chair, reflecting on some lessons that we may not have learned.

And I think you talk about, I love that you talk about the barbershop and what you were hearing about young men.

You reflected not.

in terms of young men, but you talked to men in terms of men of color, African-American men.

You talked about losing a little bit, Latino men, young men, generally, we lost, and we lost badly.

I want to talk about that.

Two, we lost people on immigration.

We may have taken from the midterms the wrong lesson on immigration and border.

And I'll tell you, a lot of Democrats, including Democratic border state governor, like myself, there was a lot of frustration.

And that was expressed very pointedly to the White House.

And we paid a price for that.

Dare I say, there were some cultural issues.

and

I'm going to stand tall.

When they talk about anti-woke, they're talking about being anti-black.

I'm sick and tired of these guys rewriting history, censoring historical fact.

The groat racism sickens me to my core.

That's exactly right.

But there were issues that were tougher.

And I've, look,

I've gotten a lot of criticism on this, and I don't want to emphasize this because it's playing into their frame, but the tougher issues, you know, on just sports and fairness, you know, on trans sports.

And it's not

a lack of love for the trans community, quite the contrary.

And I have a record that can prove that.

But there were some issues there that I also think we talked about where we're right on issues like minimum wage and sick leave and child care and issues that I think define the best of our party and healthcare, et cetera.

But there are some issues where we're not necessarily where the American people are.

In fact, we may be way off in terms of where the American people are.

So unpack that a little bit, your own reflection on that.

No, I young men,

where do we start to lose our way on some of these issues?

Did you see them as DNC chair?

Did you raise them with the Biden administration?

Are they legitimate issues?

Am I off?

Do we have to give voice to those concerns today?

No, Governor, I think, you know,

one, I did raise, I often tried because I was out there on the ground and, you know, people in DC are in the bubble, right?

And all they're doing is reading politico and seeing what MSNBC and CNN is talking about.

But I'm actually like in the union halls or in the churches or in the barbershops and talking with real people.

And you're ringing the bells like, folks, I am telling you, this is what we're, this is what I'm hearing.

This is what I'm seeing from folks on the ground.

And I think what we have to do as a party is get less in the polling stuff.

Well, the polling says, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Go out and talk to folks, right?

Because pollsters can ask questions in different different ways and get whatever they want to get to support the theory that they already have, right?

But there is nothing like getting the real raw sense of where folks are and how they feel about certain things.

And one of the things that we have to understand as a party is that we have to go to where people are, not where we want them to be, but where they are.

right and then that's not to say that we can't lead and help get people to a certain space i mean look at the issue of marriage equality, right?

Eventually, folks got, we know during when Bill Clinton, you know, the most we got to at that point was don't ask, don't tell.

But think about how quickly things evolved over time.

There was an evolution in terms of thought.

And now it is the mainstream where most folks believe that marriage equality that everybody should be.

In full disclosure, despite the fact the Supreme Court may revisit it,

which is the concern we have about America in reverse and the regression that's going on with Trump and Trumpism.

But suffice to say, you're 100% right.

That's a proof point of progress and remarkable progress across party lines.

And we have to celebrate progress, right?

Because again, I had this wonderful conversation this week.

It's Aaron at our table, our podcast with Sarah McBride.

And we talked about, and I told Sarah, I said, part of, I think, the difficulty, and we saw that trans ad that the Republicans ran against

the Vice President Harris.

I said, part of the problem is that a lot of folks don't want to be offensive.

The Democrats don't want to be offensive, but don't know how to talk about it, right?

So either they don't talk about it at all, or they talk about it in a way to be less offensive, but then it's so,

it is so

like lab tested that it's not authentic, right?

And so one of the things that if we're a diverse coalition, one of the things that we have to understand is that people are in different places on different things, but it's incumbent upon us who know better or know more to educate folks and to help create a space where people learn and evolve.

But it's also important for you to, other folks to hear where we are and to understand that, right?

I just think part of our problem in our party is that we've gotten to the point where we don't want to offend so much or that that we automatically are offended every single time that somebody isn't 100% on the dial where we are.

And we won't be a party if we continue down that road.

Could not agree more.

I mean, what I grew up, my dad's party, my grandfather's Democratic party was a broad coalition, conservative Democrats, liberal Democrats, you know, hardworking folks.

And, you know, we can talk about, you know, and I love, you know, and Jamie, we'll, we'll close on a few of these points because i i you've you've not been you you you get into it i mean you got into it

you clap back i mean because bernie talked a lot we we lost we weren't focused on working folks and you you you disagree with that you you called him out on that well tell us more well it's because

listen governor i don't believe you know i i told one reporter the other day i said you know it's like having a shiny brand new car and every day you throw mud on your car right and then after three months, you're like, well, why isn't my car as shiny as it used to be?

And I sort of feel like that's what happens to the Democratic Party.

I feel like people throw shit on the car all the time, and then they wonder why the brand is so bad, right?

Um, but it this party is when we talk about walls and brick walls, we are the only brick wall, we are the brick wall that is holding back the flames of chaos.

We are the brick wall that's holding back fascism, uh, we are the brick wall that is saving American democracy as we know it.

And if we falter, the whole damn thing goes.

And so we can't afford for them, the other side, to be taking away bricks off of our wall.

And at the same time, on our side of the wall, we're taking things away too.

In the end, that wall is going to falter and chaos is going to reign.

And there's going to be nobody there in order to protect the most vulnerable in our society.

And so that is not to say that we can't criticize our party.

but there are moments where the critique is important.

And then there are moments in which we have to rally together and say yeah we have not done the best that we can here but here are ways that we can get better and let's rally together you know as my grandma said you you attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar right and so you know

i i don't i don't like folks to say well democrats haven't done uh anything for working people that's bullshit That is literally bullshit.

When you look at the fact that we save pensions for the Teamsters, that happened because of Democrats.

A president that actually crossed the, I mean, that supported, got on a picket line.

When has that ever happened in history?

Every major bill, Joe Biden, every single time he got up, he talked about how every bill from the American Rescue Plan to the Inflation Reduction Act to the bipartisan infrastructure bill was a good

bill for union workers, right?

Unprecedented.

So that is bullshit when you say that.

It is bullshit when you said that Kamala Harris wasn't fighting for working people it is literally bullshit 25 000 for uh first-time home buyers fifty thousand dollars in order to start a business right helping people in in that sandwich population right now who have uh families in nursing homes so it's crazy do you want her would you have wanted her to do more say that yes it would have been nice to add these aspects but don't go and negate the the good work that has been done in this last administration and say that it didn't work you know I'm about to call my good friend RoConna,

who I saw something online just the other day.

He talked about the Teamsters.

The problem isn't with the Teamsters, it's with the Democratic Party.

Come on now.

Come on now.

Like,

let's stop beating up on our party like this, because there are a lot of good Democrats who work hard for this party every single day.

And when they hear our leaders, just shit on us all the time.

It's disheartening.

Why the hell am I fighting so hard if all you're you're going to do is tell me the things that I do to fight this hard for this party and for the people of my party is worthless, that I'm not doing a good enough job to do it, right?

That is not how you rally the troops.

And the one thing that I want folks to know, particularly who are running for president, if you're running for president, you're not going to be just the head of this party.

You're going to of the nation.

You're going to be head of this party.

And to be the head of the party means that you have to rally us.

You have to give us hope.

You have to give us faith.

You can't shit on us all the time.

You can't tell us how bad we are.

And that's a problem that Bernie had.

People weren't going to rally the Bernie Sanders.

Yeah, you want to be the head of our party, but you can't, you're not, the party isn't even good enough for you to say that you're a Democrat.

Come on now.

Right?

Come on.

It's not good enough for you to join.

Come on.

So, I mean, that's a problem that I have.

And as you can see, I no longer have a White House, so I'm unfiltered.

I'm going to say whatever the hell is on my mind.

Jamie Harrison, former head of the Democratic National Committee, Future

of.

Well, I mean,

that was a campaign speech, brother.

I'm trying to figure out where you're what you're running for.

Well, just tell people to go to at our table so they can subscribe.

Well, I know you're right now.

You're running back to your podcast, booth, at our table podcast host, Jamie Harrison.

Jamie, we didn't get to RFK Jr.

Marion Williamson.

We didn't even get to Dean Phillips.

We didn't get to Information Superior.

We have so much more.

Why do we need to talk about it?

You can come on at our table podcast and we'll do part two of this.

I love it.

Thank you, brother.

That was a lot of fun.

Thank you, Governor.

Take care.

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