#598 - Joaquin Phoenix

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Today's guest is a legendary actor,

one of the greats.

They'll say.

I'll say it.

People are saying it.

He's had

so many amazing roles in The Joker, Walk the Line,

The Master, Signs.

Eddington is his new film, which I got to take a peek at before we got together.

We caught up at the Hotel Chelsea in New York City.

Today's guest is Mr.

Joaquin Phoenix.

Yeah, do you have any?

Are you okay if we start, Joaquin?

I am.

Why are you looking at the ground?

What's going on?

I don't know.

I just feel like I'm a little bit nervous.

Oh, because it seems like, it seems like the assassin, like before he's about to fuck people up is just like staring like getting in the zone it's like let's do this so i was like okay yeah i mean start sure man start okay

i think yeah i'm waiting for like the coaches in my head to show up and be like you can do this you know wait a minute you can do this you can definitely do this thank you i'm questionable

but

coach is like he's questionable we're not sure who he's gonna play hey that's not jimmy chitwood okay we gotta sit that guy on the bench you know?

I don't know who that is.

Oh, it was the guy from Hoosier's member

who comes in and makes it.

I don't remember.

Dang.

Thank you for telling me you don't remember.

Instead of pretending like you do, though, so I keep talking about it.

You're welcome.

It's going to happen a lot.

There's a lot that I probably don't know.

Well,

we're going to find out.

Thank you for your time, man.

No, thank you.

I appreciate it.

I really appreciate it.

And thank you for all your beautiful work over the years.

It's been nice to witness and consume as just a a regular person in the world.

Oh, man.

Thank you.

You're very sincere.

It's very nice and refreshing and also slightly uncomfortable.

Yeah, sorry.

No, I don't.

I know you're American, so I'll keep it just as sincere.

You know, we won't get physically sincere because that can be, it's outlawed in some territories.

But no, thank you for your time, man.

And yeah, thank you for all the cool work and helping us think and stuff like that, just as viewers, you know?

Yeah, it's funny how sometimes like life or God or whatever uses like a person as like a, an instrument, you know?

And yeah, you just have such a great way of like, yeah, just being able to do something that we can't, so many people can't do, but then it helps us, the rest of us reflect on how we do things and live.

So does that make any sense even?

It's very nice.

I mean, I don't know.

All, all, I, all I'm hearing is, um, all I want to say is like, no, everyone can do it.

I don't have anything special.

I don't do anything special.

Well, you're a lucky guy then.

You've been fortunate.

Yeah, I've been very fortunate.

I've worked with great, great people.

Um,

what'd you do this summer?

Did anything fun?

I felt like I was getting serious for a second.

No, no, no, it was.

No, it wasn't getting serious.

Um, what did I do?

When does the summer start?

I guess the summer starts in, I would say, mid, I would say June 1st.

June, okay.

No, nothing fun.

I um, I just have this movie coming out, so we started, you know, I think somewhere like the 10th or something like that, started press.

Okay.

So Distant Press in LA and then flew to London, it's the press.

So that's it.

Nothing terribly exciting.

Yeah.

But I'm not, we're not like those kind of people.

We're not like, you know, like go vacation people.

That's not your life.

No.

Oh.

Yeah.

You always, I think when you picture like

actors, you always picture them in like a little bit of like kind of like a Rapunzel castle or like somebody's having shrimp, you know, like that kind of thing.

I think that's like a romanticizing of the of the

people.

I mean, maybe I should.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe that's what's missing.

Yeah.

But,

but no, it's not, I mean, I have, like, but it's not a regular thing.

It's definitely not like, oh, here's summertime.

Let's, let's do that summer experience.

Got it.

But yeah, I have that.

like fantasy sometimes like sometimes I see myself like in slow motion jumping off a pier into a lake and shit but I haven't done it yet.

Okay, okay.

So if you're not even living out the fantasies you're supposed to be doing, then what the hell am I freaking sitting over here parading them around?

I don't know.

What are you doing?

What did you do with your summer?

That's a great question.

That was your question.

Thanks.

Thanks, dude.

Oh, this is a real pickleball game here.

No, no.

I don't know.

It's good.

I just didn't want credit for something.

It wasn't my question.

So I just felt like I I had to acknowledge that.

No, well, well said.

Yeah, that's a great question.

I didn't, I think, yeah, I didn't do that much.

I just kind of like worked, I guess.

And,

oh, I did get to see my niece graduated

from high school.

So that was pretty cool.

Just to watch somebody go through that moment where they're kind of like, you know, where the training wheels kind of come off of life a little bit, you know?

So I thought that was pretty neat.

And I watched Eddington the other day.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Really cool.

Cool.

I never graduated.

You didn't graduate high school?

No.

To be honest, I'm not sure I even made it to high school.

Right.

Okay.

That's fair.

Oh, damn.

That explains things so much better than I think watching you.

You're like, oh, this guy didn't even went to high school.

Right.

Yeah, I want you to have all the information.

Like, I'm an open book.

And I just want you to really understand what you're dealing with here.

Okay.

As we move forward, okay?

Well, let's talk about Eddington first because

it was awesome.

And it was just like one of the neat things that I thought, and this is just me being kind of judgmental, just so we can frame this for the conversation is,

you want some water?

I was thinking about it.

I was deciding in my head, I was going, how thirsty are you?

How much plastic do you want?

What are we going to do here?

Yeah.

That's what you saw.

So I was like, I looked at the bottle and I said, it looks good.

I need the water, but it's got a lot of plastic in there.

Yeah.

I have glasses.

I was trying to decide.

No, no, that just feels like,

then I just feel like I'm.

No, I think you should.

Let's get it.

I believe.

Look, I agree.

I think everybody's about to try to stop drinking out of plastic.

Right.

But this is

special water.

Oh, it's

Artesian?

Artesian?

That's nice.

It's nice.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's nice.

Oh, that came down on a Sherpa's back or something.

That was definitely.

So now this,

that counteracts the plastic, I think.

Yeah, I think everybody's worried about like microplastics and everything.

Recent studies have revealed that glass bottles now contain significantly more microplastics than plastic bottles.

Thank you so much.

I did not know that I was going to get an education here.

Thank you.

So crazy.

I like it.

Speaking of so crazy, man, let's talk about Eddington, dude.

It was so intense.

The stakes kept rising.

Like,

because you have like this it's kind of like a time capsule moment this is what i felt like to me it felt like this time capsule moment from very recently um where you have the covid mandates you have the blm movement going on you have uh a change in

um the overlords of media.

So now like information is coming out of everywhere, right?

So there's a lot of like new, but also errant information in the world.

You have all of these things happening at the same time.

Then you have this sheriff, Joe Cross, who's kind of like an authority figure, right?

You know, that's who you look to when there's something going on.

But

also at the same time, everyone's challenging authority.

So it's just, and then he starts to lose authority over himself.

So there's like,

there's so much going on.

My question, I'm going to get to it too.

When there's so much going on like that, as an actor, are you thinking like in each scene, are you thinking I have to embody all of these like

little tributaries or

at once?

Or do you take that like scene by scene or moment by moment?

What's that like?

Because I mean, if it got so intentious as a viewer, you're like, I don't even know if I can watch this, much less trying to be the guy who's,

you know, spreading the jam, you know?

Um,

I think it probably

I think it changes.

I think there are, there are days where

you're probably hyper-aware of the arc and you're kind of like following this trail that you're creating.

And there's other days where that gets in the way and you just go like, shut the fuck up and just like listen to what this other person says right in front of you and just react to that.

Like we're not in our own lives, we're not always aware of like our arc.

So I think it's like, you're just trying to balance that out.

And sometimes you can be so in the moment that you do, you forget that it's like you just came, and

we're shooting this scene in six weeks, but you just have come from whatever.

It's, you know, intense emotional situation, and now you're coming to this scene.

You gotta, we have to carry that over.

So I think that it

changes like something that is just like

alive and moving and changing.

And of course, you have like a partner, which is the director, and in this case, the writer-director, Ari Astor,

who just like knows the script, obviously, inside and out, and the characters.

And we had been working, going through the script, you know, for a year prior to shooting

where we'd get together.

We were actually in New York primarily and just read through the script and talk about things.

So you're kind of going through and you're developing, you're developing the character, and you're following following this kind of plan that you have sometimes in your head some things you've discussed some things you're just spontaneously coming up with um

and

and then you just then you just hope for the best

you just go at some point you go well because here's the thing this is the crazy thing about it you'll like you'll have this fucking plan that you're like

fucking clever.

I figured this shit out.

It goes from this scene.

Then I go do that and that scene.

I'm doing that and and that scene.

You got this brilliant fucking plan.

And you're like, I'm kind of like a genius.

And then in editing, they'll like pull two of those scenes out, like take them out or like put them somewhere else.

And then it's like, it's much better.

And you're like, I'm not a genius.

I don't fucking know anything.

Like, if this shit works, it's because the fucking director

is making this work.

You know, so like, that's the, it's like something very humbling about that process, right?

And

you have to do the work.

You have to do the work as if every moment is part of this character's life.

And then there's moments that aren't even in the script and on screen that you're trying to, I don't know,

think about and feel and kind of like take on as

your experience.

But

you don't really know what's going to end up in the movie.

So yeah,

it's a pretty cool cool experience.

It's kind of like life.

Yeah.

Like you plan all this shit and you plan your day and your life and your year and then shit happens, it changes, things get moved around.

Sometimes our characters, they just get like

taken out.

Yeah, and sometimes you have a plan, like you're going to show up to like a something and everything's going to be perfect.

You're going to have flowers for this and you're going to have the best thing to say.

And then next thing you know, you're running late or you get there, your plane gets delayed.

And now you show up and

you're getting there as everybody's leaving and you're the last person and you brought the 30th thing of flowers and everything's different yeah yeah exactly yeah oh yeah can you tell at your

with your level of experience can you tell when you sucked a landing on a scene like can you like is there a moment when that thing cuts and you just like can be like that was pretty good like i serviced it well I've had that feeling before and it always turned out to be terrible and I was wrong.

Like anytime,

my experience is that anytime I'm like, fuck yeah, okay, got it.

It's terrible.

And the times where I'm like,

I don't know.

I don't know if I even landed.

I'm not sure what's, I'm not sure what happened.

That's usually when things, when I like look back at it and I go like, oh, I think that was good.

That's just my experience.

I don't know what other actors are like, but yeah, I guess maybe because

I don't know.

I don't know if

the things that I like

are like

capturing something that's like feels like intangible

and hard to define.

And like when you kind of like nail it, I don't really like that kind of

acting or maybe I'm not good at it.

Yeah, maybe there's a sense of bravado bravado that comes with that that's not as true to life, you know, because it's very rare in life, maybe that you just feel like you kind of nail it, probably.

Maybe, I mean, I don't know.

I guess

there's some people that walk around the world like nailed it.

I know.

Freaking Hulk Hogan.

Who else?

Who else is somebody that really freaking nailed it?

Oh, Nicholas Cage and Family Man.

Have you seen that movie?

Oh, God.

We got to sit together on a plane one time.

You know what was interesting about, and thanks for talking about this with me, man, because it's,

you know, it's just cool to get to like, like, it's where you get to look at a piece of art and you get to talk to the paint, you know?

The interesting thing about Joe Cross, who the character that you played, is that there were moments I'm like,

Am I cheering forward this guy?

Like, I just felt, I was like, how do I feel?

Because he's who you're kind of going through

the film with, through Eddington with.

I'm like, how do,

like, do I feel for him?

Do I feel against him?

The whole time, I just like, I just knew I just felt.

He made me feel, right?

Are you thinking about that as we're going, as you're going through it, like, how you're trying to make us feel?

Or that's not something that an actor is doing?

So, something that Ari and I talked about, something that was very important to me from the beginning, was that

Joe challenges like the audience's preconceived idea of what like a conservative small town sheriff is.

And

I didn't know how, you know, I didn't really know how or what that really meant, what that, what that really looked like.

And I think at some point,

I just, um,

wanted to care about him.

Like I just wanted to, I just wanted to like take politics or philosophy or anything like that out of the picture and just go like, what's the, what's the man?

And I think that I really, I think we found that through his relationship with his, his wife.

Yeah.

Because I think that's really where.

he's like most

uh

like his his power or authority is like threatened or non-existent.

Um, and so that it becomes like the catalyst for his

kind of desire for

more authority and power.

It's one of the things, as you said, there's there's several things kind of happening.

But then

once you start working, I think maybe you're thinking about that less.

It's less becomes about, it's almost like you that you start the process almost like an audience member yourself because you're kind of outside this thing looking in you're reading the script and he's kind of like it feels like it's like this this character over there you know i mean and you're trying to get to it or bring it to you or whatever that process is i don't fucking know um and so you're you're starting like like that and you're kind of going like oh how do i feel standing back here when this guy does this and like if he

if he said that line in this way how does that make me, how would that make me feel?

And then like somehow throughout this like process,

you hopefully start coming together and kind of merging to some point where it's not me standing outside of the character saying, not in like some bullshit, like I'm the character way, but just like you're just

hopefully experiencing something.

versus like

telling an audience what they should feel.

Right.

And I think ultimately the director is probably

most responsible, is totally responsible for telling the audience how they should feel.

So I think it's part of me is like to just to take on the experience and be honest in that moment.

So you have to really trust that director then, huh?

Oh, yeah.

Fuck yeah.

Fuck.

Ari's outside.

I think he does not want to be mentioned in here.

He's trying to edit from outside.

He just bleeped his own name out.

Dude, that's fast.

Totally.

totally.

Wow.

But that just shows you how locked in he is to being on the ones and twos.

A lot of times with acting, the actors get blamed for when things go bad, right?

I feel like, as a viewer, you're like, oh, shit, you know, right?

Like, Rodney Dangerfield sucked in that, you know, or whatever.

Well, yeah, but it's really the directors.

The director doesn't take as much heat, I don't feel like.

Well,

so the actor is the one that you're looking at.

So, like, if you're like hating a movie and you're just looking at somebody's face, you're just going to blame them, right?

But conversely, like, if you're also like, this rules, this is at the best time, they get the credit, right?

So, like, actors oftentimes, I think more often than not, the actors are getting credit and the director's like, I fucking made all of this work.

Yeah.

You fucking ungrateful shits.

It must be like very frustrating to be a director.

You're a fan almost with a a child.

You're like, this

fucking thing looks handsome because

I chased that lady down the street.

And he's just wandering around here with his good looks, fucking hiding important shit in the backyard because we bought him a shovel for his birthday, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

And I mean, there's, because you're talking about,

you know, you're having multiple takes to choose from, right?

Yeah.

And so, you know, Drucker's going through and ultimately with the editor selecting this take, sometimes they're pulling the audio from another take they're putting in there.

Just the

just like what lens is used and how it's lit, and the angle, and whether you cut to a wide shot or you're close, like all of those things, it just happens.

Like, even for me, I just watch a movie also.

Like, I'm not aware of that all the time.

Yeah, it's a good point.

It's not like you're a wizard watching it or something.

I'm definitely not a wizard watching it.

Yeah.

But it's so I imagine it's very frustrating,

you you know, for them.

And I think anyone that's that's in the business knows this, right?

So when the movie, when the movie doesn't work, even if the general public is like, you know, fucking so-and-so sucks.

Yeah.

The director probably knows that they really mean them.

So they carry that.

I think it's probably the,

I imagine it's the hardest job.

Being a director.

I I mean,

for making movies.

Yeah.

The hardest job.

You haven't directed.

No.

Do you ever think about it sometimes?

Are there moments where you're almost there?

I don't know.

I don't know that I like to delegate, and

I'm really indecisive.

So, and it's like

particularly under pressure, and it feels like

there's a lot, you know, it's you're constantly under pressure, I think, as a director, right

um

so but i don't i don't know they i think

what's appealing about it to the idea is um the collaboration with all of like the heads of the different departments

um as an actor you you know you're you're collaborating with costume and hair and makeup and and like props and stuff and then of course the the director but like the director is just like everybody and that's that sounds that sounds nice and appealing.

I don't know.

It might be a pain.

Like, oftentimes,

you know, they're like, I'll call you back, but I have to choose which forks

we're using for the dinner scene.

Right.

You're like, which fucking forks?

Yeah.

Like,

there's five forks to choose from, and I got to choose which one we're using.

Yeah.

Like, that, that kind of sucks.

Oh, yeah.

And it sucks if you're watching a movie and you see a fork that fucking is out of place, too.

You're like, these people

this isn't the titanic you blame the actor oh honestly this is the actor's face and you're just like i fucking hate this oh you're like dunkirk sucks you see the silverware in that thing

that's how you feel sometimes

um

you know what was interesting it's interesting to me and and if some of these questions are novice about acting and directing uh thank you for entertaining them um

one thing that was interesting to me about joe cross about the your character well for one he was so imperfect, right?

And yeah, when you saw him at night and he was like feeling like those feelings, when he'd come home from his day and he finally got to deal with what he really wanted to deal with, which was love, right?

That just felt like so human to me.

And

he was his villain and his hero, right?

He was, he was the creator of his possibility and his

and his pain at the same time.

And it was just so like,

oh, it was, fuck, it was just a lot to watch sometimes.

Does that just feel like regular life?

Like, could you relate to him as a human?

Does that make any sense?

Yes.

Yeah, it does.

First of all, I'm happy to talk about whatever.

I also don't, I just realized, like, I was just talking about movies and directoring.

I don't fucking know anything.

I had no idea what a director does.

So I just like, I don't want you to go like, oh, now I understand what director he is.

Because I guarantee you, directors are like this guy doesn't know shit.

So I just want to clear that up first of all, dude.

He's got some ideas.

I'll tell you that about him.

Well, you didn't walk in here like you definitely like had brought the weather with you.

You know, you certainly came in here like a victim of the storm or just like a regular guy who just gotten, you know, you can't.

Yeah.

Anyway, go on, sir.

No, no, no, no.

Let me, let me educate you here, Theo.

Let me teach you about filmmaking.

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Yep.

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I'm sorry.

I don't remember what.

Yeah, I just felt like he was the cause of his own possibility and his own pain constantly.

And it just made me think so much about life and it was so real to see him that way.

Could you relate to that in your own life?

Like, or yeah, of course, yeah, just normal, huh?

Yeah, I mean,

yeah, I think all the all the characters

in this, I felt when I read the script, I was like, oh, I kind of like, I recognize myself and all of these characters, actually.

Um, and sometimes it's like, you know, it's a,

an embarrassing admission.

Um, and then, um,

you know, there's just

things

particularly that

time.

And I think in some ways, yeah,

maybe we're always

maybe we're always responsible for how we respond to what happens in the world, right?

So we're not like so much of like just what happens in life, you don't have any control over,

but how we respond to that, we have control over.

And

I know I

constantly fail in my response, or at least don't respond in the best way

in the moment, right?

I respond like emotionally.

And so I definitely, I definitely identified with that.

And that's, that's Joe.

I mean, he kind of like

just

keeps making mistakes.

And

he's so

like he's um

he's so desperate to like

have some control

like just like let's just he just wants he's just like you know that feeling when you're like i just i need things to just stop for a fucking second so i can breathe and then like

your desire to like make things stop just make things ramp up more and more and then you just like trip and you fall down the stairs it's just like it's like that um yeah that escalation oh Oh, I kept imagining the whole time.

I'm like, oh my God, this guy is fucking just like has put too much cheese on his burger, dude.

This guy is just, and then I kept imagining the whole time he has to take a pee and he can't even get to that.

He's just dealing with like activists and people throwing things through wind.

And then he gets home and he sleeps in his glasses.

Like he literally gets up and just has to like bounce.

And he's like, suddenly it's all in focus again.

And his brain has barely had time to rest.

And I'm like, God,

somebody fucking

just put a sniper, shoot a Xanax into this dude or something.

Just somebody fucking give him a damn Percocet suppository or something.

This guy needs some relief, you know?

Yeah.

And then it also was like, God,

especially during that time, like a lot of mania came along with a lot of those different

like things that were happening in the world, right?

And there's still a lot of mania remnants from that.

And I was like, God, everybody needed some relief, you know?

It feels like that as a society sometimes, we need some relief sometimes.

But we have everything we need, it feels like.

So it's kind of a weird juxtaposition to be in.

Yeah, so what's the plan?

Yeah, what is the plan?

I don't know.

I don't know.

It just feels like we're just doing the opposite of a hug right now.

That's right.

That's right.

And

did you feel when you watched that movie, like you got to the, like you were like,

this will be a reminder, this will help influence people in a...

better way this could be like a seed of like where we've been and where we can grow from or did you I don't know i mean i i don't know i i i don't know like movies are surprising those things that connect with people and um actually influence culture um and sometimes

they don't and there's nothing i don't really know what it is that's crazy but i you know no no no i think it's a fair question and i think in some ways um

I think all I can do is think about like myself versus like the effect that it has on me.

And, you know, in some ways, there was

like, I felt like I had permission to

laugh at myself, like a way to like kind of evaluate some of that, like mania, as you say.

Like, we were like fucking crazy.

Like the summer of 2020 was crazy.

And

people were, I love that you said it's the opposite of a hug.

And it really was.

Like, everyone was so kind of fractured and fragmented and just

all isolated in our own worlds, like quite literally physically isolated.

And then everyone was just so online and kind of fed their own

fucking thing, yes, that just further kind of propelled them into their own lanes.

It was like even people in the same houses and their own place.

And there was just like this,

I remember everything

felt so aggressive.

Like even there were like, there were like signs that were supposed to be like,

like we trust science and we you know we love all people and but some of even that felt like confrontational right like it was like there's

it's like it didn't it felt like no matter what anyone said everyone was like this is my position and my position is fucking right and you can go fuck yourself like you know it's just like people went fucking nuts well we not people not we did yeah all of us us.

No, it doesn't seem like you're calling anybody out.

It feels like we're all inclusive.

I agree.

It's amazing what a time, it was like the most recent time capsule that was the most insane.

Like usually they're like, we found a can of ham from 1930, you know?

And we're going to invite everybody over and the girls will sing and then we'll open it, you know?

But this was like, Jesus Christ, we just found the most insane time capsule and we, the mud is still wet.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then it's like, it was a reminder, have we even recovered from from all of that?

Like, what happens to the human being as we go through all that?

And then you have all this pent-up anger and confusion and everything.

I think we wanted to forget or like pretending to forget.

Because,

yeah, it was

ugly.

And

it was ugly, but it's also really, it was also really painful.

And I think

a lot of people were like fucking scared.

But then also the character of the mother i didn't even think about that of joe cross's mother because mother-in-law mother-in-law oh that was his mother-in-law of the mother-in-law because then you

you're you're like

did it just change everything now for you it's not his mother no it made it a little bit more crazier i'm like so you're telling me he teamed up with her mom and now they're the one it's just like

But then that is something a lot of people have in their life.

Like, oh, well, I talked to my girlfriend's mom all the time and now we're teen or the or the, you know, oh, shit, man.

That guy was screwed, dude.

Yes.

Jim Cross was fucking screwed.

Yeah, but he, but he did, but he's, he screwed himself.

Yeah, he was the, he was the holder of his possibility and his pain at the same time, you know, it was pretty crazy.

Yeah, what was meeting Ari Astor like?

I watched some interviews with him.

He seems like a charming guy.

Yes.

I met one of his partners, Lars Knudsen.

You met him?

Yeah.

Dude, I had some video calls with him a few years ago.

I just really,

but why?

We were just talking about something, maybe thinking about an idea.

I had an idea about a movie.

And David Spade and I just wrote a movie and made a movie.

We paid for it ourselves, right?

We made, right?

So it's fucking.

Very unique.

It's done.

It's done.

We're editing it now.

Really?

Are you in it?

I'm in it.

I'm like his sidekick.

He's like the main guy.

Wait a minute.

So you know all about making movies and then you were just playing dumb, asking me questions, setting me up, setting me up to be like, well, let me tell you something, Theo.

Not at all, dude.

Here's, here, how, here's how it's done.

No.

No, we fucking, we have no idea what we have, dude.

We may have a damn visual diorama that a couple of kids put together for their kindergarten class.

You know, I was playing a bus boy, you know, not Commodus, you know?

So I think it's definitely this is way different.

I think it's a different.

This is a, is that the right way to say it, Commodus?

I don't fucking know.

Yeah, anyway, no, I didn't know anything.

I mean, I'm just learning little things, but I, I mean, I get to talk to somebody who's been, you know, who has had a plethora of experience.

So you talked to Lars.

Lars is great.

Lars is producing partner of Ari.

Yeah, and I just realized that yesterday when I was looking it up, I was like, oh, wow, I had speaking with this guy before.

When I met Ari, Ari,

we didn't meet.

We spoke on the phone.

And it was

the summer of 2020 is when we first spoke.

And he had this

film that he wanted to make called Beau is Afraid that he wanted to talk to me about.

And so I just, I spoke with him on the phone.

And I mean, the first time that I met him,

this is so crazy.

This is so COVID, was when I got to Montreal to shoot that movie.

And it's so wild because it just was like normal.

We just accepted it, but that's very strange, right?

To not meet the director, like the actor and the director, not to like be in a room together until they're two weeks off from shooting.

It seems risque.

Yeah.

It seems risque to me to do something like that.

It's like you could interview your cellmate or whatever, but you're like, no, I'll just wing it in there, you know?

Like you could have a little small QA with your selly.

So was there something that inspired you or led you to think?

Because I think what's interesting also in

the career of an actor is you start to realize, well, I only have so many times that I get to do this and times that I can afford to be away from family and friends and just.

take on such energy in my life.

And so it's, I'm sure it starts to become a little bit more poignant, like the choices that you do make.

So what was there something about him or his processes that made you think this is the right choice?

Or how do you land on a choice like that?

You never know if it's the right choice or what it is, right?

You're just going.

I mean, honestly, I just liked him.

We started talking, and the way that he talked about the film and the way that he talked about the character, I knew that it was personal, and I could tell that

it meant so much to him, that he loved making movies and it meant so much to him and that

he

like, I think I just got a sense that he was tireless.

And

like, you know, you, the director, like, really has to be obsessed, right?

Because they do have to.

They have to do so much.

Which fork am I?

fucking choosing right and you want them to actually care about that shit or else you're going to be watching the thing dunkirk and you're pissed off or the plastic silverware right right in fucking 1812

and i'm sure i'm sure that wasn't the right year for dunkirk either so we're all bad no no that's that sounds good um

so so i think that that's that that's maybe what you know right away i was like okay well this you know he he loves making movies and i i know know that just from talking to him on the phone.

Um, and he's funny.

You know, I mean, I think that's the biggest thing.

Sometimes you're just like, do I want to hang out with this fucking dude?

I'm sure.

Right.

And it's like, because you know, you go through a whole range of emotions making a movie.

I mean, yeah, it's a movie and you're, you're safe, but in the moment.

Your body doesn't know that it's not real.

You know what I mean?

It's just some shit that you're doing, right?

and um

so it can you know things can get like there can be a lot of emotion or a lot of energy and um

and uh and yeah

having somebody that you really like feels important

um

and they paid me so much money oh god no they didn't

give me some mother give me a little

um

dude side quest really quick so my friend josh used to live like i think somewhere like in e kind of like over by East LA.

And

I've known who you were like a decent amount of my life because most of the world knows it, knows your name.

But he said that you lived in his area.

And I was like, what if I opened up a shoe store called

These Boots Are Made for Joaquin?

Right.

I was like, just to get to meet you.

That would be the goal.

The only goal of the whole store was to get to meet you.

And anyway, that was just like something funny that we thought of one day.

But if you saw that store, say if you'd driven by a couple times, like, do you think you ever would have stopped in there?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I would have just like cleaned the place out

for sure.

Where was this?

You just come in with a pistol.

You're like, oh my.

Oh, that's not what I meant by clean the place out.

I was going to do it legally.

Oh, support the business.

Yeah.

Thank you, dude.

Yeah.

Does clean the place out mean like I'm here to fuck shit up?

I think that, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think that terms have changed over time.

Oh, I didn't mean it that way.

I apologize.

See,

these are the mistakes you can make.

But thanks for saying you would have stopped by, dude.

That's good.

Yeah, no, it's, it's a great.

How could I not?

It's a great store.

Maybe you should still put it together.

I'll tell you this.

One day, if I make enough money and I can open up a small place that I could afford to do it on the side, as a thank you to you for coming on the podcast and talking with me, I'll open up a small one near you and I'll surprise you.

I feel like something like that would be pretty special.

When it comes to acting,

has your approach to acting changed over the years?

Like, as you notice your own evolution with it?

And if you get tired of talking about acting, we can talk about something else.

Has my approach change?

I don't.

Maybe and maybe not.

I don't know.

I don't think so.

You know, you're definitely more self-aware.

It's just like.

you are, yeah.

It's just, it's just like the nature of

doing something, you know, that's like

visible and you're out there for whatever, 30 fucking plus years or whatever.

Um,

any more than maybe 42?

But are you self?

Wow, that's a long time.

But self-aware in the sense where you're like, um,

you know, you, all you're like,

like, do you start to know all the cult like the the palette you have as an actor or does that continue to evolve or does some of it get lessened because you're getting older and you can't you know I'm saying you couldn't do the same thing maybe you could as a as a 27 year old actor or 21 or 18 year old like does that palette grow or does it dissipate kind of

um

I don't know maybe maybe both things and maybe sometimes it's maybe just gets refined.

Maybe just, you know, it's a similar,

it's just like

a richer color or less rich.

I don't know what, you know, I don't know what it is.

Maybe that's what happens.

Hopefully you have

a director that also is familiar with your work and can like challenge you if you're not challenging yourself.

But I think like,

you know, it's like,

I don't know, but I imagine,

you know, when you're, you know, it's like you see like 20-year-old basketball players coming out, and, you know, he's just fucking just going for it, trying to make a name, right?

He's just doing the thing.

And at some point, he becomes known, you know, he's suddenly like one of the guys on the team.

It's a different kind of pressure of like taking that shot, right?

Because it's like when you're young, it's like, oh, it's scary because it's like, oh, if I fucking miss, I don't, maybe I don't get another opportunity.

But then when you're older and established, it's like, if I miss, it's gonna be a lot of press about

right.

And people are gonna be like, yeah, I paid way too much money to fucking miss that shot.

Yeah, that dude should not be missing at this point.

Like, get the fuck out.

Dude, he wasn't even wearing sneakers.

Like, what kind of guy do we have here?

So, this is, you know what I mean?

So, I think, like, that's what I mean by like being self-aware.

Like, it's at some point you feel pressure in a different different way like i think it's always no matter what it's always like you always feel a pressure but um yeah i think when you're

20 years old it's it's just it's it's it's just different and um

man nobody's really look looking at you you know you don't feel pressure when you walk on on set

right so that kind of goes away but there's this different pressure of like it's really

that these overalls are hanging off my shoulders here yeah i don't understand that yeah i don't either actually

I was trying to be like the weight of the world on the shoulders.

I was thinking of something that goes on shoulders, and then overalls came out, and I'm like, fuck it.

No, no,

it was good.

You should stick with it.

It does sound like screenplay.

I just felt stupid.

I was like, oh,

this is a really cool saying.

I don't know it.

Are there moments when you're acting where, because there's little moments whenever I do stand-up where I feel like people that are like relatives or something, there'll be a moment where I feel like my brother, my sister.

Like, there's sometimes where I turn a certain way and it almost feels like my mom.

Do you ever feel like you channel, like, certain parts of you, like people come out of you in certain moments?

I think I notice it more as I get older, too.

Does it make any sense to you?

Uh, sure.

Like, you ever turn towards your kids and say something, you're like, I am, that was just my dad.

Like, that wasn't even me doing that.

Yeah, I,

I mean, I definitely in my life have a lot of my dad in me.

Really?

Were you surprised that you got so much of it?

I was, and I think, I think I was like the last to know,

but it was like, yeah, like that, like that.

And then, like, at some point, I was like, dang, they're saying, like, dad, like, those are not good qualities.

And so, like, sleeping in his car, dad, like, like that, yeah.

Right.

And so I then became aware of it.

But no, I think, I think my dad actually, um,

I was aware

from fairly young that

I think he was probably

the greatest

influence, or I was influenced by his life in my work.

I don't know if this is making sense.

I think I modeled so many characters.

that I've played after him.

He's dead.

He's been dead for a while, so I can talk shit about him.

Yeah, so he can't disagree with you.

Yeah,

what are you going to say?

And if he is going to do it.

I just went, because I was like, don't say your dad died.

It's fucked up.

Make a joke about it.

And then go, that's even worse.

No, we weren't sure if he died until you said it.

I'll be honest with you.

Don't look it up because he might not be dead.

We don't.

If you channel him right now and us turned into him, that would be crazy.

Wow, that's kind of interesting.

Yeah, I think, you know what?

Sometimes I think I'm like my mom, and I never thought I would be.

And I was always even like rebellious against my mother.

And then I'm like, you gotta be.

Sometimes I look in the mirror, I'm like, you gotta be fucking kidding me, you know.

But then at the same time, it's like

that was probably in my life, that was the connection that I wanted the most anyway.

So it's interesting that that's what God gave me, or that's how it, you know, that like,

oh, it's like, this is kind of what I always wanted the most.

And it's oddly,

that's part of the most of of what I am, you know?

Yeah.

Just interesting how sometimes things like that work out.

Was your dad a funny guy?

He was very funny.

I mean, he was, um, he was a ham.

Oh, he was.

Yeah, like he loved

doing skits for us kids.

Really?

And joke.

Yeah.

That's cool of him.

And like joking around.

Yeah.

He's very.

Yeah,

he was.

And what would he do?

Like death of a salesman or death of, I don't know what he did for a job, death of like a

employee somewhere?

He would just have fun moments.

One of his favorites,

which

always made us laugh, was something called the fly skit,

where he just was literally, he just was a guy reading a paper on a bench.

And a fly starts buzzing around and he like waves it away.

Then he tries to like hit it with the newspaper.

You know, know, he like rolls it up and like hits it.

And finally he goes in his bag and he takes out some bug spray and he goes to spray it just as it lands on his nose and he sprays himself on the face and then like gets

all fucked up from the bug spray and falls over.

And like when you're like six years old, that's the most genius thing you've ever seen, especially because we didn't have like TV and shit when I was young.

So that was like high level entertainment.

Oh, yeah.

Your dad was the the damn history channel when you were a kid back in the day, you know what I'm saying?

Or they were that's so funny to think about.

I never thought of my parents were like the channels that we had, like, because we had some channels, but it wasn't like that, you know, it wasn't like you had every moment was accessed.

So, really, people were looked at as a lot more entertainment.

Like, let me go poke this bear and see what I can get him to do a little bit, you know.

Oh, that's cool, dude.

My dad, um,

oh, it was so funny, dude.

My dad was very old when I was born.

He was like, he was born in

1910 or whatever.

And so

he was like, everything was very like, you know, and my brother and I would go to, he ran a, the World's Fair was in New Orleans when I was growing up.

And he ran a, I don't know if he ran, but somehow they let him have the keys to go in there in the morning.

And he, it was like a souvenir shop for the World's Fair or postcards, stuff like that in the French quarter.

And he'd always pay this guy, this guy who was a clown, right?

he'd be like go get the kids a couple of uh wieners or franks you know hot dogs so we'd like I just remember like one of my early memories is just being with my brother and this clown that my dad had given a couple shekels to running us down the street to get us a couple of fucking hot dogs and I was like oh it's gonna be a fucking interesting road you know so how how old were you uh when he moved on when he moved on I was 16 and I was it was weird because I was like embarrassed to my dad because he was older so I didn't want to to introduce him to people.

I always had like this weird relationship.

But then I think as a kid, it was fascinating to watch this older guy that

you love so much, but you're also trying to keep hidden, you know?

So how when you were 16?

I'm going to fail at math.

I'm trying to figure out.

I'm trying to figure out if that's how my son is going to think of me.

Oh, damn, dude.

I was 45 when he was born.

Huh?

I think you're going to be okay.

It's going to be, do not get a cane early, though.

If you get a cane early, he'll know.

If you get, I thought about this.

I was just thinking about it yesterday because I got to knock somebody up in the next two years because I need a family.

But if you get a cane early, he's going to know.

Right.

So that's, so I, I was basically, when I, when I had my first son, I was your age.

And, and it is something that I think about constantly.

Like,

um, and I, cause I just want want to be able to

be a fun dad and not and not be this so did your dad die suddenly can i ask you is that all right

yeah it's okay man yeah he got cancer and i didn't even know about cancer that much and uh and he died pretty quick it was pretty sad because suddenly he got like yeah it was just kind of sad i mean it it's all sad but then it was you know I don't know.

Wow, of course it was sad.

When I think we were fucking, you know, everybody was like

getting this champagne out, but he was a ridiculous.

But my dad couldn't see, he would drive, he would take us somewhere, but he couldn't see the lights or anything.

So he'd be like, what it tells?

Is it red or green?

And suddenly we'd get it wrong and he'd fucking just drive out.

Just, it was all bathroom.

That sounds kind of cool.

Yeah, I think he would have dug it.

I gotta say it,

dude.

Dig it.

Wow.

You would have dug it.

Did your dad have cancer or no?

Yeah, he did.

He did.

He did.

Yeah.

And here's something else that's fucked up.

Okay.

My sisters lost his ashes.

No.

Yeah.

We just, it's every couple months,

we'll just somebody will send out a text to the thread being like, has anybody found dad's ashes?

And

it's, because all you can do is fucking laugh because it's horrible.

It's almost like it's, it's just horrible.

It's almost really like his last performance.

I mean, that's not joking.

Totally.

It's a great bit.

It's a fucking, fucking,

that's, you're right.

It's his best moment.

Dad's as anybody found.

I love that text, too, you know?

Just randomly, every once in a while, because it'll occur to one of us.

We'll be like, yeah, which, where the fuck are dad's asses?

Did you send that out?

And

still don't know.

Here's the thing.

I mean, I'm blaming my sisters.

Yeah.

Might have been me.

I don't know.

The thing is, is that it's one of those real, like, you know, sometimes you have a vague memory of like i know we were in here yeah no idea

i have no idea like yeah do you ever walk in the kitchen you're like it's it's kind of like that thing like what was i in here to get you know where did where did i put those you know

oh man Thanks for sharing that.

That's funny.

I'm glad we even got to laugh about your dad today and my dad.

That's cool.

I think our, I think spirits, I think that when you laugh about somebody from your like life or something like that, I think they feel that on the other side.

I think there's like a big connection there that we don't know about.

If you're thirsting for no, we aren't there yet, kids won't stop crying.

We brought snacks, but they wanted other snacks.

Stop pulling each other's hair, and we made it 14 minutes with no screens-level refreshment.

We definitely have that.

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Have you ever met someone and you were like, I could play that person?

Like, is that because that would be like kind of like I feel like if I were an actor, that would be like my power.

Like, you would corner somebody in a room of a fucking party and you'd be like, I could play you in a heartbeat.

You know, does that happen with the good actors?

You have to ask good actors.

I think that I,

that's what this is called this past weekend yeah

well how did you come up with that because I just started on a Monday

to be honest I didn't really that's that's good um we didn't have a real drawing board there mr.

Phoenix

I'm trying to think uh

I don't know that I don't know that there's ever been any moment where I was like, oh, I have to, I have to play that.

I've been inspired by like friend, like I've stolen shit from like friends and people that I've met.

Oh, yeah.

But I've never,

I don't think that I've ever like, like, I'm going to play

who?

Exactly.

Oh, yeah.

You get to choose.

You're the one who can do it.

Yeah.

But that's the interesting thing.

Yeah.

I just wonder if you had that ability.

Does that start to get into some people?

But then maybe that's like some ego in there, too.

You play the broken so well, man.

You really just have a,

I mean, you are just like a

harp that is missing some strings, you know?

But it's really beautiful to watch a lot of times.

Um, what is that?

Why do you think that do you get attracted to those roles?

It seems like you must in some ways.

Um, yeah, and sorry to just kind of like pigeonhole you and your abilities.

I know you have a lot of abilities.

Um,

uh,

I definitely, I don't know why, I guess,

okay, so

my dad was,

he was, he was a complicated dude and he

there was like a lot of like

I want to say dichotomy, but I don't even really, I'm not entirely sure if that's, if, if that's the right thing, but it is like conflict or something yeah and and and his

um he was really it was complex or something like very like

um

sensitive and sweet and thoughtful about him and he grew up in a pretty pretty tough situation and

um you know was in juvie very young and had this very splintered family background and

you know it was like so pretty affected yeah like he you know, it's what you'd call like a shit kicker.

You know, he was like, so, but he also was like, he also was like,

like a fucking hippie and was like, you know,

was, you know, vegan.

And like,

um, so, so I think like I was really, I think he was like so fascinating to, to me,

growing up because I think I.

I saw

those things and then that that existed inside the same person.

Yeah, let's get fucked up and get a salad on

exactly.

I mean, that's a crazy thing to even think,

you know, and I'm sorry to say that just a little bit like dangerous.

No, it's it's it's great.

It was great and it was perfect and I needed that moment.

Um, so I think like that was really again, I think maybe I was, and I, you know, I don't know why, but I think I was attracted to those roles, maybe as a way of

whatever, you know, connection or just

like familiarity, or just curiosity, you know what I mean?

Like, I feel like he was kind of like the most interesting person to me, and I probably wanted to

try and understand him more or something.

Sure, maybe, or maybe not.

I don't really know.

But so, I think maybe that's that's part of it.

And then, like, yeah, I just, I, I love one of those people that

whatever limited exposure I had to

film or television when I was young, um, I loved like

fucking drama.

Like, I, I loved conflict.

I mean, I did.

I loved when shit was like,

you know, this seems, don't, this is very bad.

Whatever's about to happen, this is very bad.

Oh, no, you are a fucked up person.

I was fucked up.

How could you have done that?

I think that that was interesting to me.

And I think I also wanted to like try to,

I think I always was like curious.

I think I didn't believe that there was like

good people and bad people.

So like I was like interested, like, okay, well, this is somebody has made these like

mistakes or bad decisions.

How could that, how could that happen?

Like, what are those?

What led to that?

I think it's just like a curiosity about that, maybe.

Yeah.

And then some of it, honestly, straight up, some of it also is like, it's not like I walk in and it's like the full fucking salad bar and I can choose whatever.

There's like a full thing.

And then they come in.

They're like, you have, you can actually just from here to there.

You can have those four options.

You go, but what about they go?

No, no, you don't.

That's not for you.

So part of it is like, get in where you fit in.

Right.

Part of it is like, I had a face that just oftentimes looked criminal from like very, from a very young age.

I noticed that like when I went into the fucking store with my friends, I was the one that was followed around by security.

They like, were like, and I didn't understand why.

But at some point, I think I kind of realized, I was like, oh, okay, so I'm going to, I'm getting these, these parts.

And like,

yeah, I'm the guy in the master.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, or, you know, playing Skeletor in the He-Man commercial, not He-Man.

Oh, I'll seriously.

Like, oh, this is kind of interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, so part of it is like, that's just also the reality, right?

And there's things where you're like, oh, but I can do that.

I want to do that.

And they're like, no, you can't.

And in some ways, maybe they're right.

There's also like a point where you're like,

okay, how do I,

how do I achieve that thing that I'm chasing there

in this in this thing?

Like, maybe that's the better route for me.

Like, maybe that's the more honest thing.

And like,

I'm chasing an idea

that i think

that somebody maybe has of me as an actor and i want to dispel that no what do you who that's not what's important

um

but maybe it's valuable to like chase that quality but through this this character's experience

um that's fascinating dude like the joker yeah like i could totally see exactly what you're talking about like and i'm thinking a lot of times in life we have this we're chasing an idea of ourselves or a projection that we thought someone else had of us or even just the um

the archetype i can't even freaking remember that word dude from freaking science or whatever the archetype of what we think something is you know like the high school quarterback or the prom queen and for our whole life we're like instead of being like well why don't i just fucking put on this comfortable shoe that fits or why don't i try to be the quarterback but he's in the fucking school play and he doesn't have a football, right?

Yeah.

And he's a fucking lives in a dungeon or whatever.

And he has a hunch.

Yeah, because it's probably good to like challenge yourself and challenge expectations, right?

To not just go like, oh, I guess I'm just that and I'll just be that, right?

Like there was, I think I did have

an ambition,

but really my ambition was about like an experience.

I felt like,

I don't want my experience to be limited.

Like,

that's not fair that I don't want to just play this role in this way like that's I like I want my appetite was bigger than that like it was bigger than I think

what I was

um what I was told I remember I remember like I remember when I was young I remember doing this movie and that one of the other actor was talking to the director and he was like wouldn't it be cool if you know joaquin did you know this kind of movie you know kind of like so-and-so.

And he mentioned this other actor that was like my peer who was like, like the actor, right?

And the director was like, yeah, but I mean, Joaquin is no so-and-so.

Like,

and he was like, and the other actor was like, dude, that's so fucked up.

I said the director was like, oh, no, no, I just, I mean that in the best way.

Like, you're a character actor.

He's no Fred Armiston.

Yeah.

Character actors, yeah.

It's like it's like kind of code for like, you can't really, like, you're never going to really get there, but you'll work

and um

and that fucking pissed me off

but here's the thing but it pissed me off because i was like no i i have more like that's not um

there's more that will come out that will come out of me and i just um

but i think i ultimately appreciate it because it It made me go like, well, how do I find

that way?

Like, how do I find more?

And, and yeah,

I'm not going to be able to get in this door.

And, like, yeah, I shouldn't play the quarterback.

Like, it doesn't make sense.

Like, if I walked out, then you're going like, well,

unless it's like, the defense is going to be on the field a lot.

Yeah.

This guy's a lucky quarterback.

It's going to be.

Unless it's like some 80s school comedy, like kids' comedy, where like they're a disaster.

Yeah.

You know, maybe that, maybe that version of it.

Yeah.

Or unless they like siphon in a unique quarterback from another realm, kind of.

Right.

And his thing is,

by the way, let's not give away too much because maybe this is

something we should, we should work on.

But no, I think there was something else you said in there and I forgot what it was a second ago, but it was really profound about, or it was as profound as people can be in a fucking motel somewhere.

But with a hotel.

You're right, actually.

well, just because in case they're no, you're right,

you're right, I don't want them being upset.

This is a very famous hotel where a lot of fucking important people have overdosed.

Um, and that is true.

We're at the Chelsea Hotel, and it is very unique and fun.

This is a great place to be whenever you're in New York City, I think.

You're tricking me now.

No, no, you're not set me up.

I didn't set you up at all.

No, I for real had paranoia and i was like i don't want to be a person who's talking shit about them

and but motel chelsea also

kind of sounds dope to be honest motel chelsea yeah yeah it sounds like it sounds better than a hotel chelsea oh it sounds like somebody my dad met you know what i'm saying that's a problem too dude um

sorry so anyways no it's all fun but i think you said exactly what you wanted to say there and i think it's interesting yeah because i think it pertains just even outside outside of acting is how can we do more?

How, or like, how can I find a way to apply myself to this thing?

How do I adjust?

Like,

what is a new way to do something?

If I want to get to my goal,

and if it's even going to be possible, is there another route, right?

Like rerouting when your app says that.

It's kind of like that, which I think is

something that people do when they are

when they really have a goal that they want to try and attain you know i just think it's interesting yeah it's like of of of course right resistance right like it's like resistance is is important and you know just reading like um

just been reading about dinosaurs my kid and and you're like oh shit motherfuckers were like hold on there's a very large dinosaur it's got big teeth it's nasty as mean and what do i do i'm just uh i'm i'm a fucking vegetarian dinosaur what do I do and just like evolution is like oh you start growing spikes out of your back or fucking horns and shit and it's just like it's a reaction to the environment those motherfuckers it took millions of years to like react and to change and to evolve and so sometimes when you're like oh yeah the director was mean to me

like oh yeah well it's fucking nothing comparative comparatively right so it's just yeah i think kind of meeting the challenge in some ways like trying to get to a place of appreciating the resistance

and reacting to the resistance.

I don't know what I'm saying about that.

But I think it's fascinating to think how badass a fucking vegan or vegetarian a fucking bronosaurus was.

Bronosaurus is big.

That was the solution.

It just got like bigger.

Who was the biggest vegetarian dinosaur?

Let's give them a little bit of shine here.

You know?

And I'm sure Josh Brolin will get to play them in a movie

but we won't this is the the bronosaurus tip tip

oh the dreadnautus

look at that limousine i have not read about him um how because you how long have you been a vegan for vegetarian vegan uh vegan since i was three years four three three and a half years old oh so it's been a whole part of your life yeah wow yeah

you know what I do like sometimes?

Radishes.

Yeah, I just, I just had some.

You know, I just made it yesterday.

I made radishes and jalapenos

together.

Fantastic.

Lemon, salt.

I like having some salt and water.

I like fasting recently.

I've been doing it a lot.

Have you?

And I really like it.

What did you do?

Just nothing.

Just water.

Yeah, just water and a little bit of salt.

Put some salt in your hand.

But you even look forward to the salt.

I would even go to the gym.

Oh, wait.

You went to the gym?

I would go to the gym.

I'd get home.

Like, when I get home, I'm having my fucking pinch of salt.

How long do you fast for?

73 hours is the longest that I did so far, but I'll just do a day.

Like, I did like 36 hours the other day.

I feel like I'm doing like a day a week now, 24.

Yeah, it's great.

It's good for you.

But are you sure you should work out while you're doing it?

No, I'm not sure.

Oh.

Maybe look into that.

I don't know.

But I remember doing that and then I didn't feel good.

And maybe it was that.

Oh,

um, I want to ask you one more question before you leave because I feel like we've had a nice conversation, so I don't want to push the bounds of it.

Oh, push it.

It's okay, you can do whatever you want, man.

It's fine.

Um,

do you feel like do you did you like being a son?

Is that a weird question?

Did I like being a son?

Uh, because I never thought about it, I just thought about it like as we're sitting here thinking about that.

We were both, you know, that we had that in common.

A lot of people have siblings, yeah.

I got three siblings: one boy and two girls.

Oh, boy, two girls, yeah.

Um, well, I was the second son,

uh,

and

my brother was like quite a force and was definitely like, I don't know, it's like mythical or Shakespearean or, you know, maybe it's because he died or something, but he's like, you know, he was like the first son.

And he was, and he was, he was incredible.

And

he was such a force within our family.

He was kind of like

the guiding light in some ways.

He's the one that acted first.

And we used to sing on the streets, and he played guitar and kind of like oversaw everybody.

So, he was like the lead singer, he was the lead singer, and he was the guitarist, and kind of oversaw everybody, and he, and he was such a like a strong but gentle force within the family.

So, I think in some ways,

if I'm honest, a lot of my life, like growing up, I kind of was like,

you know, like, right, what am I going to do?

Yeah,

like, what kind of like you're like, and not, not a way of like, oh, this sucks.

Just kind of like,

yeah.

Like, cool, like, feel secure.

Yeah.

Shit's handled.

That's like care of.

Yeah.

Everyone's fucking handled.

Yeah, for sure.

I got.

And I have three sisters.

And

they're also like amazing and

strong in the best way.

And like, you know, forces like

each of them just brilliant.

And, and I probably, yeah, for like,

yeah, I don't know that I,

you know, I just, I didn't, I never, I never felt any weight or pressure about like being the son or anything like that, you know?

Um,

maybe it falls on the first child a lot.

I never thought about that.

I'm, I'm sure.

Um, and I don't know if it fell on him or if he just like took it.

You know what I mean?

Sometimes, sometimes it's just like deniable.

You know what I mean?

Like, like, I'm the, oh, look, look at the two of us.

I'm the son.

So to say, like, sometimes.

You know what I mean?

He's working freelance over here.

Okay.

Like,

it's kind of the truth, right?

And there was no, like,

I never, you know, we also, there was like a four-year age difference between us.

So I never, I never felt those things.

Like, you know, in movies, it's like the brothers are like competing and like angry.

Oh, yeah, like Shakespearean.

That was funny.

You didn't intend that to be funny, yeah.

I did not intend that to be funny, yeah,

still was or brothers.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of other brothers, anyways.

Um, this is good, Jason Jackson 5, maybe.

This is a good, that's good, um, but that's interesting.

Yeah,

I don't know, I was just thinking about being a son because I never really even thought about it myself that much.

But yeah, if you have that brother, you kind of have that get out of jail-free brother.

You know, you're like, oh, this son, this guy's got that, dude.

He's a fucking lead singer.

I'll be back here, you know yeah are you what I'm the second brother yeah I'm the second son my brother was kind of like went a wall so I was like oh shit I gotta fucking pick up I gotta like I gotta do some recycling here you know right he's great now but he was just like kind of like rogue you know he was like more of like a

pro like troublemaker or just like lost that's what I mean he was like a lost right like a lost guy but now he's great and now he's like my hero he's like you know it's cool to like be able to still be like influence like that everything changes over time and what's the age difference two years but yeah he's like a brave I what do I admire about him he has a lot of empathy and he's good for like being patient with me um

yeah it's like he has time for me right

and that was something that I think growing up in our place it was just like

I never

I didn't even know it was possible you know but yeah he like he makes time for me he makes time for me yeah and I think that that's pretty special that's good um

you know one thing that you guys talked about in Eddington was like whose land it is, right?

That was like a little bit of a theme.

It was kind of a sub-theme, I felt like, with the Native American and you guys were like the county or the township butted up against native lands.

Where do you feel?

Like

it's kind of so weird where we are in the world right now because I feel like people are still warring over lands, you know?

You think that's and like there's ice raids, like people are getting taken off of lands and like,

you know,

I don't know.

I just feel like sometimes I thought we'd be further along in this.

I don't really know Westerns, but I think that that's like a common thing in Westerns, at least that's the that's the feeling I have when I think about Westerns.

It might not be, but just like the idea of like, this is my land, and I'm the protector of this land, and I will fight for this land.

And so I think that is something that comes up in Eddington.

And I think that both kind of

both figures, both the sheriff Joe Cross and the mayor,

Ted played by Pedro Pascal,

both believe that they're like fighting for the land, fighting for this town, and that

their idea for this land is the right one.

I was really moved

by something that you said when you talked about the war in Gaza.

And

I think that's really courageous

to speak about it.

And you spoke about it like in such a honest

way

that I just thought was like really beautiful.

And it's crazy because

like what's going on is absolutely so fucking horrible.

There's no justification for fucking children starving to death in a conflict.

Like it's that simple, right?

You don't have to understand geopolitics or anything like that just to to get that I know there are conflicts all over the world constantly um but that's something that is

uh I'm just it's it's shocking like how

maybe

we're afraid to to talk about it um and oftentimes you're made to feel like you're stupid because you don't understand geopolitics you kind of go like well i don't have to understand geopolitics like i just have to understand like

human rights.

Yeah, basically.

It's feeling, it feels like to me, you know,

for me, yeah, I don't know.

I don't care about, I don't know if I care about geo.

I mean, but it's hard to say I live on a land that's kind of been taken from other people, but here I am saying like about geopolitics.

And I understand that.

But then at what point do you not say something, you know, like, yeah, and we're in a time and just like in Eddington, kind of like, and I'm not comparing like any of these two things, but people are watching things on their phones and you can see for the first time time some of this like travesty in real time and it just fucking hurts, man.

It's like, and then you're like, am I crazy for not saying anything?

But then here we are on a land where,

you know, people are living in allotments now, Native American allotments and that sort of, you know.

Yeah, and that's, that's a great deal of pressure.

And just honestly, just you saying that makes me fucking feel like, you know, under pressure.

So like you're like, okay, yeah, what, you know, what am I, what am I talking about?

But I think sometimes not acknowledging it is, is wrong.

Obviously, I don't have the fucking solution, but war always fucking sucks, right?

That conflict sucks.

But what's happening, it just is

crazy to me, just like

just the food distribution that's happening now.

Oh, yeah.

They're like hiding it from people or that they're tricking people or that they have to go so far to get it.

It seems right.

But and why is it like, why is it not the organizations that are typically overseeing that and have you know half a century of experience or decades of experience doing it in the different NGOs, and they're not the ones that are overseeing the food distribution?

It's a

new organization, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.

And so that is,

yeah, just really troubling and heartbreaking.

So it just feels like, how do we not acknowledge that and, you know, in some way?

And so, and I think that you did.

And I, um, I just like, I, you know, I don't know, like, when you did that, if you were like, if that made you nervous doing it, or yeah, I think I felt scared.

Yeah, well, I was, I, it was, uh, I think that it was, it was courageous and it was meaningful.

And I think it matters.

And, and, um, so, you know, I'm,

I'm all straight up, I'm really here to today because I was, I was so moved by what, by what you said and just like the courage to do that yeah I was wondering why you came to be honest

to be very honest in some ways or not not in some ways but but thank you man I can't even believe that you saw that and uh yeah not thank you but like yeah I think that shit just like I don't know it's just like it's crazy to think like I'm laying in bed at night and I'm warm and I'm okay and to think that there's like like some kid who's never going to put these pieces together, you know?

And even the kids who have to be alive are the people who still have to be alive.

What life do they have?

you know like what like i don't know it makes me like i don't know and then you start to feel ashamed of your own existence in some ways yeah i don't know yeah you almost feel ashamed to be alive in some ways in a little bit of a way does it make any sense you think

yeah

I understand the feeling.

Yeah,

I totally understand that.

Just a little bit of that feeling.

That feeling.

But thank you, man.

Thank you for,

well, yeah, not thank you, but yeah.

I don't know.

It's interesting.

you know.

But I think it's important today that we, that you do say something like you say, you know, and not to think that this isn't affecting people, you know?

I think, yeah, that we're human beings.

We absorb what's going on, you know, and we watch the actors that are out there in the world and it affects us.

It affects children.

What are kids doing or seeing those things on TikTok?

What happens to their brains and stuff, you know?

Yeah.

So, but no, I'm grateful to be able to be in a place today and in a country where we can still say something, you know, and it's not mandated by some other power.

And who knows if that's coming soon or what's happening.

So.

Do you have some inside information?

I have nothing.

Okay, good.

I thought you were looking at me like

you

knew some shit.

Like, no, okay.

Well, that's good.

Is there a,

you know, I was thinking the other day, I missed Philip Seymour Hoffman.

I missed him.

I miss his acting.

Is there somebody that you miss?

Like they're acting.

Or like a Philip Seymour Hoffman.

I'm trying to think.

Michael Landon, I miss.

Who's Michael Landon?

He did Little House on the Prairie the other day.

Of course, of course.

And then,

and then...

What was the heaven?

Highway to heaven.

It was Highway to Heaven.

With Victor French.

Because I think that was one that I tried out for several times.

You're lying.

No, I'm sure.

I'm sure.

God.

Yeah,

it's definitely in my memory, but that was one of the shows when I was a kid that was popular.

Yeah, dude.

Wow.

Yeah.

He was something special.

He was a really special.

So he was

this.

What's happening?

Oh.

In between.

What's this thing here?

It says 1984 and then RIP.

What is that?

Well, apparently he took the highway to heaven.

He was in the HOV lane in that picture.

You know, that's all we can do.

Oh, shit.

Anyway.

Hey, hey, listen,

you're going back out on the road, right?

Yeah.

Is it fun or is it grueling?

It was fun.

Like, I think I'm ready to stop doing this hour material.

It's changed a lot.

It's like probably 60% different than when I started.

So it's evolved a lot and adjusted.

But

I'll be happy to get it done when I feel like we've gone to all the places that we can.

and like kind of, you know, you want everybody to have a chance to see it if they want.

Um,

but I'll be happy to have a chance for my brain to settle down and not always have to feel like I have to go do this thing every other week or every couple of weeks, which is a blessing, but still, it's like just this thing on the calendar.

It's almost like you're always having to take a vacation.

And so I'll be happy when that, when that's done, so I can see what else do I want to think about and do.

Like, you know,

we like, I work with this group called Valor that does like sex and love addiction, intimacy disorder, stuff like that.

So I want to like just have, just have a little bit more time to do stuff that's not just focused on myself, maybe, I guess.

I don't know.

So

it's, it sounds,

I, I imagine it would be nerve-wracking.

I can't imagine having to do that.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, like getting up, like, getting up.

Yeah, like standing.

It's like just standing.

That makes me fucking nervous.

And But then you walk around, you have a microphone, and then you say shit.

And it's

great, man.

Dude, I'll tell you.

And this is, I think, this is the only way to end this is just these

boots were made for Joaquin.

Okay.

So we have to.

Perfect.

Dude, thank you so much.

Thank you for spending time with me today.

Thank you for thinking with me today.

And I just appreciate it.

It was nice of you.

And

yeah, you just do a great job of like being able to

create things that the rest of us can't to make us feel.

And so that's a gift that you have.

And

I feel lucky that you have it.

And so thank you for just bearing that gift.

Oh, man.

Thank you.

That's,

well, thank you.

Thank you.

It's just too much.

No, I just get embarrassed.

I just want to go.

I want to dissect everything you're saying that's nice about me and tell you why you're wrong.

Yeah.

But I won't do that.

And look, let's just thank Motel Chelsea here for this fucking

epic.

Yeah, suite here.

And cheers to our dads, man.

They're out there.

Cheers to those guys.

We don't, my dad, we don't know where he is still.

So that's we're not sure.

He's somewhere.

TVD, guys.

Yeah.

You know, good luck.

You hope you find your way.

Now I'm just falling on the breeze, and I feel I'm falling like these leaves.

I must be

cornerstone.

Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind.

I found I can feel it

in my bones.

But it's gonna take

a little bit of time.