The most dangerous award

Speaker 1 The Oscars are so last month, and yet they're still making news. This week, a new rule.
Members gotta watch the movies before they vote. Big yikes.

Speaker 1 But earlier this month, a new category, best stunt design. It's almost like an issue of justice.
Kind of like justice for stunts.

Speaker 1 Like for the work that they do and the fact that they don't really get credited the way that a lot of other people in the film industry do with Oscars and industry awards and things like that.

Speaker 1 But for me, as a film critic and a cinephile, and also someone who's studied film history, the stunt people were here before the movie stars were. Like, stunts built Hollywood.

Speaker 1 And the idea that over the years

Speaker 1 they never quite got their due just seemed to be such a miscarriage of justice.

Speaker 1 Justice for Stunton on Today Explained.

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Speaker 1 Bilga Iberi says an Oscar for stunt design is justice for all those stunt people who never got their due. We asked him who the first stunt people in Hollywood were.

Speaker 1 I mean, in many ways, we don't even know, really.

Speaker 1 Very often, the people that appeared in, you know, some of the early silence, they were anonymous in so many cases.

Speaker 1 But if you look at somebody like, I mean, obviously he was a star, but you look at someone like Buster Keaton or Harold Lloyd, I mean, these people were stars, but they were renowned for their stunts, for the incredible Pratt Falls.

Speaker 1 And this is before we had terms like stunt coordinator or stunt designer or action designer. These guys did all that stuff.
And they starred in and often wrote the films.

Speaker 1 And Charlie Chaplin would also count. You know, Charlie Chaplin, I mean, obviously, was a comedian and a great actor, but so much of his slapstick comedy is predicated on stunt work.

Speaker 1 And, you know, when you talk about Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin, you're talking about some of the biggest names in early cinema. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think most people probably think of them as actors and visionaries before they think of them as stunt men or stunt people. When does that start to change?

Speaker 1 Where does the road split? And actors and visionaries are in one group and people who do stunts and fun action sequences are in a very different group?

Speaker 1 I mean, once any industry gets big enough and begins to think of itself as an art form, it

Speaker 1 almost organically and automatically divides into artists and then the people who aren't artists who are there to serve the artist's vision, right?

Speaker 1 And that, of course, gets hyper-accelerated when the Oscars come into the picture.

Speaker 1 And the Oscars, I mean, there's a whole history of why the Oscars came, why the Oscars came about, but part of it was for the film industry to really make a case for itself as an art form because censorship was starting to come in and they wanted to, you know, make the case, well, you know, we're actually doing great art.

Speaker 1 And here, we're going to show that by giving awards to ourselves for, you know, the best picture and the best director and the best actor actor and that sort of thing and when they came up with a list of who would get an Oscar was there a reason that they bypassed stunt people the only reason was that they didn't think of stunt people as being all that important I mean this is back when stunt people were barely getting paid they had zero industry protections there would be reports of how many stunt people had died in that given year I mean they people were dying making these movies you know they had to sign these things that you know colloquially called blood sheets, which were these contracts saying that they weren't going to sue if they were maimed or killed on shoots and things like that.

Speaker 1 And this, I mean, this is what I mean also when I say they were largely anonymous, too. They were not generally seen as

Speaker 1 in most cases, people didn't even know what their names were. So, you know, why even bother to give them awards?

Speaker 1 When does it start to feel strange or unjust to people that there is no category for stunt work?

Speaker 1 The real movement for it begins in 1991. A legendary stunt coordinator named Jack Gill is working with the director Sidney LeMet on the film A Stranger Among Us.

Speaker 1 And it's Sidney LeMet

Speaker 3 who actually says to him, Why isn't there an Oscar for stunts?

Speaker 1 So Jack Gill enters the academy and, you know, he begins to advocate for a stunt Oscar.

Speaker 5 We feel feel like we're being left out. We feel like there's a big hole in the academy and we should be included in it.
It should be a no-brainer decision that happens overnight.

Speaker 1 And the thing he always said was, you know, at first they seemed really open to the idea, but over the years, you know,

Speaker 1 he found more and more doors just shut in his face.

Speaker 1 And towards the end, he said, they won't even meet with me anymore. This was in 2019.
How come? He didn't know. Like, he did not know why they had stopped meeting with him.

Speaker 1 Over the years, he'd been given all sorts of different excuses for why there couldn't be a stunt Oscar. For a while people would say, well, you know, we don't want another category at the Oscars.

Speaker 1 The show is already too long. Who wants another category? And then not only do we not want this category, but like this category

Speaker 1 it's a technical category. I mean, the Oscars for years were trying as hard as they could to sideline the technical categories.
They thought to get more viewers and to sort of be a better

Speaker 1 awards show experience, what they really really needed was more glitz more glamour

Speaker 1 you know ways to get more famous people give out bigger awards

Speaker 1 in their eyes a stunt Oscar was not going to be that is there also an issue with the very work being rewarded here the fact that it's dangerous to do these stunts could be a deterrent, right?

Speaker 1 You start giving people awards for doing dangerous stuff. Maybe they start doing more and more dangerous stuff.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And that was another thing that Jack Gill heard, and that I've heard heard as well over the years. You know, there were certain folks in the academy who felt that

Speaker 1 if you gave an Oscar for stunts, then

Speaker 1 stunt people would start hurting themselves and maybe even killing themselves trying to create more and more elaborate stunts because they were trying to win an Oscar.

Speaker 6 Being intelligent is much more important to stunt people nowadays than just toughness.

Speaker 6 I would like to think that we will use the awards to push push ourselves creatively and use every tool in the book to push it and make it look.

Speaker 6 My name is Chad Stihelski. I'm the director of the John Wick series, John With 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Speaker 6 You know, we're stunt people for a reason.

Speaker 4 You know, like,

Speaker 6 there's a certain ego involved. There's a certain mentality involved.
when you want to be an A-list or tier one stunt performer.

Speaker 6 I think now rather than pushing risk, we push creativity to do greater things. And, you know, I think we're going to push the envelope of what the audience sees.

Speaker 6 But let's hope we don't push it past the point of safety.

Speaker 6 Let's hope we push the past of what's the norm and push the envelopes of how we make it safe so we can be a lot more creative in how to put our tools together.

Speaker 8 My name is Zoe Bell.

Speaker 8 I feel like sort of once a stunt person, always a stunt person, so I would still refer to myself as a stunt person.

Speaker 8 Any coordinator that is really good and intuitive knows that safety is key so

Speaker 8 yes the risk might go higher but hopefully the technology to sort of divert from as much of that risk as possible kind of comes hand in hand with that and I think look it's just inherent as we evolve inherently the risk goes up across the board because we're always pushing and always breaking boundaries and so that I think is kind of built in

Speaker 1 if anything stunts have gotten safer and safer over the years there isn't a single stunt person out there that wouldn't prefer to land on a two inch ethafoam mat than concrete we're not out there to win an award for who's toughest we're out there to win an award to who wows the audience and if i can do that safely by putting rigs on cars and wires and pads great look at the historical trajectory of stunts back when they weren't getting any awards and nobody knew who the heck they were and nobody was rushing to sort of talk about how amazing the stunts were in movies, that's when people were dying, right?

Speaker 1 The more that we've actually focused on stunts and the more aware we've become of stunts, they've gotten, if anything, safer.

Speaker 8 It's my job to say, I don't think I can do that safely or beautifully enough, whatever the situation is. It's also my job to go, I've never done it to that extent, but I know I can.
Let's fucking go.

Speaker 8 But as a stunt coordinator, they have to be able to read that when I'm saying to them, I trust that I can do that. They have to be able to read me well enough to know whether I'm full of horse or not.

Speaker 1 The other thing is, I always found that that argument was sort of rooted in a certain Hollywood elitism.

Speaker 1 I think a lot of them thought of these guys as, you know, these are people whose job it is to, you know.

Speaker 1 get run over by a car.

Speaker 1 Like, do we really want them to be in on our fancy little awards show where we're, you know, eating hors d'oeuvres and drinking champagne and talking about what great artists we are.

Speaker 1 You know, so there are all sorts of weird classism comes into it. So what changed the Academy's mind? That's a very good question.
I mean, I don't know if there was any one thing that set it off.

Speaker 1 What I will say is, I mean, more and more people have been advocating for this for the past few years.

Speaker 3 I think it's time we give a little love to our stunt coordinators and our stunt

Speaker 3 crews.

Speaker 1 A lot of other filmmakers have been vocal about it. People like George Miller, people like Quentin Tarantino, and actors have been very vocal about it.

Speaker 1 Arnold Schwarzenegger, Kiana Reeves, Ryan Gosling, Tom Cruise, obviously, all these people have at various points talked about the need for a stunt Oscar.

Speaker 1 And last year, you know, the fall guy ended with a song about how there still is no stunt Oscar, right? I mean, this is actually, you know, it was like a plot point almost in the film.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you heard, but my stem brothers and sisters don't get no gold. So here's some

Speaker 3 heroes.

Speaker 1 So it's become more and more of a thing. More and more people have talked about it.
Hollywood runs on action movies, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, action blockbusters and superhero films, you know, action fantasies, you know, all the kind of big franchise films run on action. Stunts are a huge part of all of those films.

Speaker 1 And the more that Hollywood has become reliant on these, I think the more it became unavoidable that they had to start honoring one of the biggest elements of this type of film.

Speaker 1 A lot of people collaborate to make any one stunt happen. So who gets the Oscar? We're going to ask next on Today Explain.

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Speaker 1 So who gets the Oscar for a stunt? Is it the stunt coordinator, the stunt people, the director, all of the above?

Speaker 1 Well, that's one of the big questions. You know, for years, when Jack Gill was, you know, stumping for a best stunts Oscar category,

Speaker 1 his contention was, listen, it would go to the stunt coordinator. And there's a stunt coordinator on any film that has stunts.
But, you know, on any given film,

Speaker 1 the exact combination of who is responsible for the stunts is different, right?

Speaker 6 Like a good, a really good director, some of the top directors out there, they're part of everything. It's their vision, right?

Speaker 6 Like, I design a lot of the action in John Wick because of my background. I get to help design that.
But not every director comes from 30 years of stunts. So they need help, but they have this vision.

Speaker 6 I want character beats. So like what I'm saying is filmmaking in general at a high level is always collaborative.
And it would be impossible to separate the lines, right?

Speaker 6 So the stunt department and the stunt people involved in the design and execution, I think, should be involved. Now, every movie is different.
You know that. You can look at a John Wick.

Speaker 6 There's 400 stunt people from five different countries. There's four choreographers.
There's three stunt coordinators. There's a rigger, a driving coordinator.
So who gets it?

Speaker 1 So, you know, it'll be a case where on any given film, they're going to have to determine who is the person to get it.

Speaker 1 I don't know if this is the thing that would go to one person or if it'd be, you know, the way best picture goes to three producers.

Speaker 1 So, you know, with the stunt Oscar, they'll figure out, I mean, it'll go to some combination of the credited stunt coordinator, sometimes maybe the filmmaker.

Speaker 1 You know, I don't think necessarily it means Tom Cruise is going to get up there for, you know, and pick up an Oscar for a Mission Impossible movie, but who knows? Maybe, maybe he will.

Speaker 1 Are the stunt people happy with how this has all been set up? I would imagine that they're elated.

Speaker 8 I tend to sort of minimize stuff kind of immediately. Like, well,

Speaker 8 you know, but when I think about

Speaker 8 my comrades and all my workmates that have in the past, when I think of like the Jeannie Eppers of the world like I'm so sad that Jeannie Epper didn't get a chance to see this happen.

Speaker 9 Epper grew up in a family of stunt performers setting out early on a legendary 70-year career highlighted by her work as the stunt double to Linda Carter's Wonder Woman.

Speaker 10 I know my neighbors think I'm nuts. They say, what are you going to do today, Jeannie? What do you tell them? Whatever's coming up, we're hit by a car or whatever.

Speaker 10 And then they wait to see what condition I'm going to come home in, of course.

Speaker 1 I just feel like

Speaker 8 a really deep sense of validation for her entire career and her entire life and her entire family and the generations and you know so that for me really resonated with thinking about

Speaker 8 my people and my industry as a whole. I felt really long deserved recognition.

Speaker 6 Super grateful.

Speaker 6 It's kind of cool. Of course, it's always been great to be recognized.

Speaker 6 Always tricky to say most stunt performers, and I'm sure if you interview a lot of us, especially from the older generations, the stunt performers were always meant to be like the little hidden secret, the trick behind the curtain, if you will.

Speaker 6 But still, that doesn't mean, you know, you don't want to be recognized by your peers and all that.

Speaker 6 Look, I think it's very cool the Academy's doing it. I think it's at a really good time.
So to be recognized in that, yeah, I think it's a cool, at least both performing and technical achievement.

Speaker 6 I think it's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 Okay, so who's going to get the first Oscar for stunt design? Do we just assume it's Tom Cruise? Because like, you know, there's a Mission Impossible movie coming out this year.

Speaker 1 Well, he has a Mission Impossible movie coming out this year, and

Speaker 1 everyone seems to accept that it's going to be his last one. So he won't be eligible for that movie because the first awards are going to be given to films released in 2027.
2027?

Speaker 1 What if we don't make it to 2027? Well, then we've got bigger problems.

Speaker 1 then maybe the stunt people can help us in other ways like teaching us how to survive in in a post-apocalyptic wasteland but yeah 2027 so you know unless tom comes up with another mission i mean he is planning on doing i think he's still planning on doing that movie where he goes to space so maybe they'll get it for that one he's gonna have to come back to mission impossible just to win this oscar and is it even in 2027 or is it in 2028 the award will be in 2028 it's for the movies

Speaker 1 longer it's even longer. Tom Cruise is going to be like 85 years old or something.

Speaker 1 I've always thought that Tom Cruise should be the first person to present the best of stunts Oscar. There you go.
But, you know, who knows? Who knows how it'll work out. All right, Bilgo.

Speaker 1 Well, you know, since our listeners, after listening to us yammer on about stunts and the Oscars for 20 minutes here, They won't even get to see the stunt-inclusive Oscars for years.

Speaker 1 I wonder if we can leave them with something. I know the Oscars love a montage.

Speaker 1 Perhaps we can do our own little montage right now of all the great stunts over a century of Hollywood that never got love from the Oscars.

Speaker 1 What should be in the montage that will that'll happen in 2028, but we're gonna do one right now?

Speaker 1 Well, first we gotta start with movies that were even before the Oscars started because you've gotta include stuff like Buster Keaton's The General and films like that.

Speaker 1 Buster Keaton's Sherlock Jr., Steamboat Bill Jr.

Speaker 1 You have to think about some of the great Western stunts, you know, like in Stagecoach. And then you have to think about films like the great sword and sandal epics like Ben-Hur

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 El Cid and

Speaker 1 the great epics of the 1950s and 60s where there were a lot of elaborate stunt work and a lot of writing.

Speaker 6 I think Lawrence of Arabia's got some of the greatest battle sequences ever.

Speaker 1 And you got to start thinking about the great car movies, right? You got to think about Bullet, the car chasing Bullet. You got to think about the car/slash subway chase in the French Connection.

Speaker 1 And then, you know, this is also when we get Star Wars, right? Star Wars comes out in the late 70s. I mean, it completely redefines the idea of the blockbuster.

Speaker 1 You start thinking about Raiders of the Lost Dark.

Speaker 6 Under the truck, what Terry Leonard did was fucking amazing, right?

Speaker 8 He climbs across the horses and he goes under the horse and under the cart.

Speaker 6 There's nothing, and like, look at the fight scenes:

Speaker 6 the big German guy that he fought by the plane and then swinging onto it. Like, there's a lot of action in Raiders of the Lost Ark, but it all moved the character forward.
Nothing was gratuitous.

Speaker 6 It wasn't just car crashes. Like, it was awesome.

Speaker 1 So then we start going through the 80s. You know, you got to look at movies like Die Hard,

Speaker 8 Romancing the Stone,

Speaker 1 The Big Mudslide.

Speaker 8 That I was like, that's a girl doing that. And that's Genie Eppa.

Speaker 1 You got to look at Terminator movies.

Speaker 10 I'll be back.

Speaker 6 Back in the day, if Jackie Chan came out with, you know, Police Story 2, Firework Factory, like, you'd be like, fuck, I'm all over. Like, it's great gang.

Speaker 1 And then we get stuff like Jurassic Park, Terminator 2, Titanic.

Speaker 1 Think of a film like The Mask of Zoro, right?

Speaker 1 Which is a great, great action movie full of amazing writing and amazing swashbuckling stunts.

Speaker 1 Think about the Jameis Bond movies all across this huge swath of time.

Speaker 10 You're so right, Mr. Bond.

Speaker 1 This is where we leave you, Mr. Bond.

Speaker 1 Moonraker, which is not one of the great James Bond movies, but has that incredible sequence at the start with people jumping out of airplanes without parachutes and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 And those are real stunts, and that was the first time anybody did that. And that was also stunt camera work.

Speaker 1 You know, you had camera people with like helmet cams and things like that, like flying through the air recording this stuff. So yeah, so the James Bond movies all throughout this period.

Speaker 6 And then you have sequences like Bad Boys 2, The Car Chase. You know, fucking with Michael Bay.
Awesome.

Speaker 8 I find it hard to not bring up the death proof sequence because

Speaker 8 I mean, just because honestly, it's the only work of mine that to this day, it doesn't matter how many times I've seen it, when I watch it, I still get a sort of visceral response as an audience member.

Speaker 8 Like, I find myself going,

Speaker 8 even though I know for a fact my feet are not where they're not in any danger. But I still sort of flinch and cringe as if it's not me watching me.

Speaker 6 Batman, the Dark Knight returns, flipping the semi. Great gang.

Speaker 1 You know, Mad Max Fury Road is an incredible, incredible film full of incredible riding stunts and all sorts of other stunts as well.

Speaker 1 That film is full of just incredible, incredible action, a lot of which was done for real, and we're very careful to make sure everything felt real.

Speaker 7 Oh, what a day! What a lovely day!

Speaker 1 Bilga Iberi writes for Vulture over at New York Magazine. You can subscribe at nymag.com.

Speaker 1 Chad Stahelski and Zoe Bell make movies and they have made some really good ones Hadi Mawagdi made this show Jolie Myers Amina Al Sadi Laura Bullard Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd would share the Oscar with him the rest of the team at Today Explain includes Amanda Llewellyn Avishai Artsi Miles Bryan Carla Javier Victoria Chamberlain Peter Ballinon Rosen Devin Schwartz Gabrielle Burbay our executive producer Miranda Kennedy and our executive host Noel King we use music by Brake Master Cylinder.

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Speaker 1 You can support us by going to Vox.com slash members. And you can check out our Sunday show, Explain It to Me.

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