Why Harvard is fighting back

Speaker 1 Harvard University, birthplace of Napalm, setting of Legally Blonde, currently fighting back against the president in his war on higher education.

Speaker 4 What, like it's hard?

Speaker 1 You've surely heard about Harvard's showdown with President Trump.

Speaker 4 He also wants to see Harvard apologize, and Harvard should apologize.

Speaker 1 Just like you've probably heard about the president's wins over at Columbia. But on the far other side of the spectrum, we've got at least 10 Florida state universities.

Speaker 1 These schools aren't fighting the president, they're going in the complete opposite direction. They're raising their hands up and waving them at ICE, saying, Come on in, here's our roster of students.

Speaker 1 See anything you don't like? Question, detain, go to town. On Today Explained, we're going to take a look at the two extremes in this fight, fight, fight at American universities.

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Speaker 5 Fight fiercely, Harvard. Fight, fight, fight.

Speaker 6 Demonstrate to them our skill.

Speaker 7 This is Today Explained.

Speaker 2 My name is Andrew Jack. I'm the global education editor at the Financial Times, based in New York.

Speaker 1 Did you go to Harvard, Andrew?

Speaker 2 I did have a year on a fellowship at Harvard many years ago, yes.

Speaker 1 Oh, you did? So does this story hit home for you?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I think certainly in the sense of

Speaker 2 some degree of skill in the game, game, I guess.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Tell us what is going on with your quasi-alma mater right now.

Speaker 2 Well, Harvard, of course, has been in

Speaker 2 the sights of the Republicans and Donald Trump for many months.

Speaker 2 Like other leading universities, Harvard for a long time was very quiet in public. It wouldn't speak out.
It wouldn't give interviews.

Speaker 2 It was going about its business.

Speaker 2 And then in recent weeks and months, it's taken a number of moves that some interpreted as attempts to suggest it was responding to the criticisms of the Trump administration, but also to try and push back any more aggressive enforcement actions.

Speaker 2 So it got rid of some senior leadership at its Middle Eastern Studies Centre.

Speaker 2 It's got underway, though we're yet to see it, a detailed report on anti-Semitism on campus and a number of other initiatives.

Speaker 2 But really, after the demands escalated from the Trump administration at the end of last week, it switched and decided that it wouldn't accept the conditions that were sought from the government and that instead it would defend academic attache and free speech.

Speaker 8 The Trump administration had something like 10 demands for Harvard, including the elimination of DEI programs and the restriction of acceptance of international students who are, and I'm quoting here, hostile to American values and institutions.

Speaker 4 Harvard's response? A flat no.

Speaker 1 Which is interesting, right? Because I think in this moment this week, a lot of people are saying, Harvard stood up to Trump.

Speaker 1 But what you're saying is this was a process in which they initially were placating Trump. So do we know

Speaker 1 where this break came from? Did Trump and company push too hard?

Speaker 2 We don't know the full story, but clearly this is an evolving situation where also presumably the Trump administration officials are adapting in response to a whole series of other actions they've taken, both to the higher education sector across the board and to now something like seven of the most elite universities.

Speaker 2 And I suspect that the apparent willingness by Columbia, in particular, to cede to the demands from the administration gave them a sense of increased empowerment.

Speaker 2 And so they then stepped up their ask to Harvard.

Speaker 2 Then last week, the American Association of University Professors, a network representing professors across the country, themselves took legal action against the administration, if you like, on behalf of Harvard.

Speaker 2 So you were getting those pressures from within and pressures from without and a lot of concern by all those engaged with higher education about the attacks from the Trump administration.

Speaker 1 Yeah, let's leave Cambridge for a second and talk about what's transpired at other

Speaker 1 East Coast elite universities, Ivy League or otherwise. Let's start with Columbia because I think that's maybe the most important case.

Speaker 9 An Ivy League school is apparently ceding now to President Trump's demands to do more to combat anti-Semitism on campus.

Speaker 10 The school leaders agree to a campus mask ban, will empower 36 campus officers to have arrest powers, and will appoint a senior vice provost to oversee the Middle East Studies Department.

Speaker 1 Remind us what exactly happened there and how Columbia conceded to this administration.

Speaker 2 You'd have to go back really to October 23 and student protests.

Speaker 11 The chorus of drum beats and chanting could be heard for blocks as prohibited.

Speaker 13 It happened in the middle of the night. Protesters smashed windows and stormed the building.

Speaker 14 They barricaded.

Speaker 2 Of course, Columbia in the heart of New York, lots of TV crews, lots of politicians marching through.

Speaker 2 So everybody trying to turn it into a test case. And it got very much drawn into the debates during the presidential election.

Speaker 13 The person that heads up Columbia University was a great school. It's been, you know, badly damaged, I think, reputationally.

Speaker 2 And then in the last few weeks, we've seen a series of targeted attacks now on seven of the more elite universities, including Columbia and Harvard, but also Cornell

Speaker 2 and Princeton and Brown, for example, where they've been told that grants have been frozen and they're bracing for further action by the administration, but still waiting somewhat for communications.

Speaker 2 And as I said, it looks as though Colombia was the test case. It was one that no doubt the Trump administration considered would be the easiest to go after.

Speaker 2 And indeed, it's now had two presidents resign within the last few months.

Speaker 1 Do you have, Andrew, any idea what the size of Colombia's endowment is?

Speaker 2 Yes, Colombia's endowment is around about $14,15 billion.

Speaker 1 $1,415 billion.

Speaker 1 So I think the average person out there might struggle to understand why an elite university with $15 billion in an endowment and who knows what in real estate holdings would have to cave so gravely to the Trump administration, to have the Trump administration be making administrative decisions.

Speaker 1 at their university. Can you help people understand what may have gone into a decision like that?

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, the first thing to say that you often hear the pushback from even the very well endowed universities is that you know those endowments are a long-term investment in their future operations that of course much of that money gets reinvested for the longer term but the the surplus I always hear that but I don't understand it because this seems like the the break-in case of emergency moment like if not this then what well and I think yes so I think that there's a few things to say here the first is that certainly much of the surplus income that's generated by endowments is actually used for financial aid.

Speaker 2 But the second thing is the Ives argue that much of the revenue that they generate from their endowment, that surplus, is actually used to provide discounted or even free tuition for those that are talented but come from lower income backgrounds.

Speaker 2 Typically to blow out the endowments is one difficult because a lot of those reserves that go into endowments are earmarked by the people who give them, the donors, for specific causes.

Speaker 2 But the pressure that we're seeing, the funding withdrawals, the $2.2 billion now at Harvard, for example, that the government says it will withdraw from the university, is actually, well, it's a little bit unclear, but it primarily seems to come from federal grants for research.

Speaker 2 So this is not, you know, just a subsidy to a rich university to perpetuate their endowment. It's actually money that's very specifically allocated for projects for research for the future of society.

Speaker 1 Aaron Powell, but can, let's say, Harvard in that case, with I believe a 50 billion endowment, I think the biggest of any research university in the world, can they dip into that gargantuan sum of money to fill that void in these, you know, two, three, four, 50 years of the Trump administration?

Speaker 2 Yes, and I think even at Columbia and a number of the other universities that have been targeted, frankly, despite the complexities we were just discussing,

Speaker 2 those should provide resources to help them during rainy days. There was a big debate around this after the financial crisis in 2008.

Speaker 2 There were discussions around it during COVID, of course, when students had to go online and classes were cancelled and so on.

Speaker 2 And I think this is absolutely as, if not more, of an existential moment when, frankly, taking some of that endowment money to cover the additional risks of some loss of federal funding and indeed the litigation and uncertainty around it and potentially even some loss of donor funding or students is a cause that would totally justify them dipping into their endowment, but also looking at other sources of income.

Speaker 2 And incidentally, both Harvard and several of the other universities have also, in recent weeks, been issuing bonds. So they're going to the bond markets to raise money, and that's cash.

Speaker 2 So that does give them additional reserves to help support or mitigate or prepare to challenge some of this onslaught that they're facing at the moment.

Speaker 1 Which is still funny to me, I guess, because I still can't wrap my head around not dipping into the 50 billion and instead selling bonds. They're so nervous to use their endowments.

Speaker 2 Well, of course, don't forget that in the last few weeks, President Trump has decided to wage war on the world with his tariffs.

Speaker 2 And that's caused, as you'll have seen, the stock markets and the bond markets to tank or to bounce around in a very uncertain way.

Speaker 2 So if you're to have a fire sale of your assets, which what these endowments are invested in, it also perhaps wouldn't be the right moment to do so.

Speaker 2 So if you can borrow relatively cheaply with a reputation that's still out there of a great institution like Harvard,

Speaker 2 get some money in order to prepare for all sorts of uncertainties and short-term demands on cash, that's probably a rational approach to take.

Speaker 1 Yeah, who am I to question Harvard's tactics?

Speaker 2 Now that Harvard is saddling up for a fight with this administration, now that they are inspiring other schools to maybe, you know take their lead what can the trump administration do in response to make this uncomfortable for them so to be clear the the first response from harvard is yet has not yet been legal action it's not yet launched as far as we know a lawsuit but it has written very robust letters framed in legal language by some pretty top law firms so it's very clear they're preparing they've got a robust attempt to respond to the trump administration but even when that set of statements came out that they wouldn't concede, you already saw very quickly the response from the Trump administration saying

Speaker 2 we are immediately freezing $2.2 billion worth of assets. So that was point one.
Secondly, we've heard further pushback and indeed non-truth social.

Speaker 2 Donald Trump hinted at some other potential levers and pressure points, including reviewing the tax exempt, the non-the charitable status of of Harvard.

Speaker 2 And this is something that universities have been thinking about or concerned about for a while. Again, obviously, which would have a big financial cost were they to lose that status.

Speaker 2 So, a whole series of statements, of potential threats, of other levers, both financial and legal, that we can expect to see in the weeks ahead.

Speaker 1 Andrew Jack, never Jack Andrew. Read his work at ft.com.
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Speaker 1 list.

Speaker 1 Harvard, Columbia, sure, but what about everyone else? How's this playing out at state schools and say Florida? The answer is very differently.

Speaker 1 Josh Moody's been writing about Sunshine State Schools for inside higher ed schools. You've been hearing less about with all the attention on the Ivy League.

Speaker 6 You've probably not heard of some of them because it's the Florida State University system,

Speaker 6 which has 12 members ranging from large schools with tens of thousands of students to New College of Florida, which has about 800 students.

Speaker 6 At least 10 of those institutions have signed agreements with ICE,

Speaker 6 which essentially would give their police department immigration enforcement powers.

Speaker 1 And what's going on here with the Florida State schools? Is this a rebrand to like ICEU? What are they doing here?

Speaker 6 So So Governor Ron DeSantis has taken a pretty hard line on immigration, and his directive was for law enforcement agencies to enter into memorandums of agreement with ICE to basically gain immigration enforcement powers, which he argues will make Florida's community safer.

Speaker 14 This legislation will require state and locals to assist the administration in Washington with reestablishing the rule of law, with removing illegal aliens from our communities, and from protecting public safety.

Speaker 6 Basically, these agreements, as one expert explained to me, are, he called them force multipliers for ICE.

Speaker 6 So, if you wanted to have more immigration enforcement, you would sign an agreement with ICE to delegate that power locally.

Speaker 6 So, this is just a way for Florida to expand its immigration enforcement capabilities. You know, the governor, as I've mentioned before, before, has taken a hard line on immigration.

Speaker 14 You are going to see more effective interior enforcement when you have the state, local, and the federal government on the same page.

Speaker 6 He ran for president previously.

Speaker 6 I wouldn't be surprised if he does so again.

Speaker 6 And that could be part of his long-term strategy looking ahead.

Speaker 6 So,

Speaker 6 in this this way, he's sort of outflanking Trump on immigration.

Speaker 1 And this is just a fun question I love to ask while we're talking about this stuff. Where did Ron DeSantis go to school again?

Speaker 6 Yale, right?

Speaker 1 Or was it Harvard? It was both. Okay.
Anyway, have any students been detained or deported yet at these Florida state schools like we've seen at, say, Columbia?

Speaker 6 18 students at Florida International University and eight students at the University of Florida have had their visas revoked.

Speaker 15 We have to make sure we have enough capacity and enough seats for our in-state legal Florida residents.

Speaker 16 I think it's a betrayal to most of the student body here.

Speaker 1 And what does that mean?

Speaker 1 Were they deported?

Speaker 6 They would have to leave the country.

Speaker 6 It doesn't necessarily mean the ICE is going to come scoop them up in a van and facilitate that process, but they would essentially have to begin the process of leaving the country.

Speaker 1 And do we know what specifically these students have had had their visas revoked for?

Speaker 6 We do not, but that is not uncommon. That has been the case across the U.S.

Speaker 6 Some students have been targeted for their speech.

Speaker 6 You look at the situation at Tufts and Colombia,

Speaker 6 where students were active in pro-Palestinian protest,

Speaker 6 and the Trump administration has claimed they're anti-Semitic and pro-Hamas, but has not provided any evidence that they have done anything illegal.

Speaker 6 So in some cases, they're being targeted for their speech. In other cases, they've had visas revoked for crimes committed years ago.

Speaker 6 And these institutions themselves have often been given no explanation when student statuses were changed. And sometimes they've discovered it by looking in their own

Speaker 6 systems and seeing that those statuses had been revoked.

Speaker 6 We don't know how many international students have been caught up in this, but one of my fellow reporters at Inside Higher Ed is keeping a database and we have counted at least 1,200 students at 180 colleges who have lost visas.

Speaker 1 1,200 students? Does that mean there are other schools, university systems around the country that are signing these kinds of agreements with ICE that are cooperating with ICE at this level?

Speaker 6 Florida institutions are the only ones to have signed agreements with ICE. The professors that I spoke with, the legal experts for this piece, believe this is unprecedented.

Speaker 6 Neither were we aware of another university ever signing into what is known as a 287G agreement with ICE. It's sort of a new frontier in immigration enforcement on college campuses.

Speaker 1 I mean, are students on the campuses of these universities upset to hear that they're signing into agreements with ICE?

Speaker 6 Yes, there were protests at Florida International University today, which had a board meeting.

Speaker 10 So now, FIU, our university, is collaborating with ICE.

Speaker 6 The students that I hear from are often, you know, upset about what is happening in the state, not just around immigration, but what has been

Speaker 6 a broader effort by Florida Republicans to really control all aspects of the university, whether that is hiring politicians, lawmakers into the presidencies of these universities or overhauling general education requirements to

Speaker 6 minimize certain disciplines like sociology that Florida state officials have deemed liberal.

Speaker 11 We have worked hard to get woke out of our institutions of higher education and to make sure they're focused on the classical mission of what a university should be.

Speaker 1 How do you feel what's going on at ICU down in Florida fits into this other fight that we're seeing in the Northeast with Trump going to war with the elite universities?

Speaker 6 In Florida, this is being done by the state, dictating to these universities, you need to do this to basically carry out state goals around immigration enforcement.

Speaker 6 Whereas the other examples at places like Harvard and Columbia, this is the Trump administration more or less trying to bring higher education to heel,

Speaker 6 starting by making an example of some of the most visible universities where there have been some of the most visible pro-Palestinian campus protests over the last year.

Speaker 6 People are really freaked out. Professors are worried about academic freedom, but also nationally,

Speaker 6 people are worried too, because they see Harvard and they see Columbia

Speaker 6 being at the forefront of this fight. And even though they are not at all representative of higher education broadly, these are very visible universities

Speaker 6 and everyone

Speaker 6 pays attention to these universities. And if they crumble,

Speaker 6 it seems only likely that your local institution is going to crumble when faced with the same threats.

Speaker 1 I guess on the show today, we've been talking about these two extremes in this culture war right now. You know, on one,

Speaker 1 the oldest and most prestigious university in the country, Harvard.

Speaker 1 And then over here, we've got this pocket of Florida state schools that are just like throwing up their hands and complying with ICE. But where does that leave, in your estimation, like everyone

Speaker 1 in between those two extremes?

Speaker 6 Sure. A lot of that comes down to public or private control.
And if you are a public university in a dark red state, I would think you should expect that this is coming.

Speaker 6 If you are at a public university in Texas,

Speaker 6 I think you might not be that far behind Florida in terms of an action like this. And that's what I'm hearing from experts too.
They tell me that they expect the same.

Speaker 6 If you're in a blue state, you are a little bit more isolated. If you're a public institution there, private institutions in both will have a lot more latitude.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 I don't like to speculate, but I think it is entirely possible that the Trump administration looks at something like this and says, why don't we do this nationwide?

Speaker 1 What a time.

Speaker 6 Absolutely.

Speaker 1 Josh Moody, though he was quite pleasant when we spoke to him, insidehireed.com. Miles Bryan and Devin Schwartz made the show.
Miranda Kennedy edited it.

Speaker 1 Andrea Christensdoctor and Patrick Boyd mixed it. I'm Sean Ramas from from This Is Today Explained.

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