Project 2025’s next chapter

Speaker 1 The Trump administration is justifying the arrest and detention of protester Mahmoud Khalil and Rumaisa Azturk, who wrote an op-ed in a student newspaper by calling them Hamas supporters.

Speaker 1 But when asked for evidence, the administration doesn't offer any. Here's a DHS official on NPR.

Speaker 2 How did he support Hamas? Exactly, what did he do?

Speaker 3 Well, I think you can see it on TV, right?

Speaker 1 It's, you know, this is somebody that, you know, we've invited and allowed the student to come into the country, and he's and put himself in the middle of the process to basically uh pro-Palestinian activity so where is this allegation coming from on today explained it might be coming from the same people who wrote project 2025 project Esther largely flew under the radar until now so they didn't actually say whether they took cues from Project Esther what they said is well it's always been a core principle.

Speaker 2 It just so happens those core principles can be found in Project Esther.

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Speaker 1 I'm Noel King with Russell Contreras.

Speaker 1 He's a senior reporter at Axios who wrote that the Trump administration's actions to combat anti-Semitism by calling people Hamas supporters stems from a specific playbook.

Speaker 2 Russ, what's the playbook? Well, there is a playbook that was created by the Heritage Foundation called Project Esther.

Speaker 2 Many listeners listeners may remember the Heritage Foundation for their Project 2025. Yes.
And so Project Esther could be seen as an addendum.

Speaker 7 Project Esther, a national strategy to combat anti-Semitism.

Speaker 2 It's a blueprint for the administration. It was released around October of last year, before the election.
Not a lot of press.

Speaker 2 It calls for an administration to rebrand pro-Palestinian protesters as Hamas supporters.

Speaker 7 The Hamas Support Network and its nihilist supporters indoctrinate the gullible into supporting Hamas and hating Israel to create the street mayhem that serves their ends.

Speaker 2 It also calls for the administration to go after any funders, non-profits, progressive leaning groups who are supporting protesters.

Speaker 7 We have several laws at our disposal that may help to exploit Hamas Support Network and Hamas Support Organization vulnerabilities, such as the Foreign Agents Registration Act, the Project Esther lays out a plan for administration to implement that, and that's what happened when the Trump administration came in.

Speaker 2 The plan was right there.

Speaker 8 And if you tell us when you apply for your visa, and by the way, I intend to come to your country as a student and rile up all kinds of anti-Jewish student, anti-Semitic activities, I intend to shut down your universities.

Speaker 8 If you told us all these things when you applied for a visa, we would deny your visa.

Speaker 3 I hope we would.

Speaker 8 If you actually end up doing that, once you're in this country on such a visa, we will revoke it.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Project Esther comes from the Heritage Foundation. Who wrote it exactly?

Speaker 2 It looks like it was a coalition of Heritage Foundation authors. The document clearly states that we're doing this because We have concluded there's been Jewish complacency.

Speaker 2 That means Jewish American groups, American Jews have not done enough to fight anti-Semitism.

Speaker 7 Some may be in such disbelief that they cannot even acknowledge the threat. More likely, many simply do not know what to do and are waiting for leadership to guide them.

Speaker 2 So therefore, this is going to be a larger effort and it does not need to be Jewish-led. Oh.
Who is the we? That's the clear. It doesn't look like it had a lot of Jewish American input.

Speaker 2 It looks like this we is a lot of Christians, white Christians, conservative Christians. They've taken a step to say, look, we're we're concerned about anti-Semitism.
This is not just a Jewish fight.

Speaker 2 This is our fight too. And we feel we have to speak out against anti-Semitism.
Here's our plan.

Speaker 1 Why are these Christian conservatives so invested in fighting anti-Semitism?

Speaker 2 Well, it goes to the worldview of Christian conservatives. If you've ever been to an evangelical church, I grew up in Houston, Texas, so I know this very well.

Speaker 2 The idea of Israel is very central to their being. A lot of Christian, white Christians, believe there needs to be a strong Israel for the second coming of Christ.

Speaker 10 Now this goes into history now. Now you have Israel

Speaker 10 literally being the centerpiece of God's cosmic clock. That's why Christians are so fixated on Israel.

Speaker 2 On the other side, you've got conservative-led governments in Israel that have made coalitions with conservative Christians in the United States because they see them as important allies for a lot of their fights as they go into this Israeli-Palestinian Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Speaker 2 So there's always been a relationship.

Speaker 11 I'm a great champion of devout Christians because devout Christians are the greatest champion of the state of Israel.

Speaker 2 When the prime minister comes to the United States, he'll often visit with white Christian groups who are very supportive. There are trips, visits.

Speaker 2 So when they see protest on college campuses, by pro-Palestinian demonstrators, they see this as antithetical to the worldview and they must speak out.

Speaker 1 All right, so Project 2025 was 900 some odd pages. I read many of them, but I didn't read all.
Project Esther is only about 33 pages. It's very easy to get through.

Speaker 1 Both of the projects are kind of built on thesis statements. What is the thesis statement of Project Esther?

Speaker 2 Project Esther believes there has not been enough efforts to fight anti-Semitism and there needs to be attack on multiple fronts.

Speaker 2 It then says it is the objective for the administration or anybody who would take this project to rebrand pro-Palestinian protesters as part of the quote Hamas support network.

Speaker 2 It then outlines some things to say this is needed. These steps are needed to put colleges back in their place

Speaker 2 and address students who are harassing Jewish students.

Speaker 2 They believe in their view that pro-Palestinian demonstrations are a threat in general to Jewish students, that they make Jewish students uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 Now, to be very clear, in my reporting, there have been many cases of Jewish students feeling uncomfortable at these protests. There have been many anti-Semitic things said to students.

Speaker 2 But this takes it a step further that suggests that all protests are likely anti-Semitic and all protests need to be dealt with accordingly.

Speaker 1 What is this thing, the Hamas Support Network? Is that a real organization?

Speaker 2 No, it doesn't seem to be a real organization. It seems to be how they're portraying it.

Speaker 2 Those who are part of the student protest say this is outrageous. This is a grassroots effort.
These are students who are protesting, who believe they see an injustice.

Speaker 2 It has nothing to do with a network. This is a group of students and activists who are speaking out about the images they see going on in the Middle East and want to say something and do something.

Speaker 1 Does it say anything about right-leaning anti-Semitism?

Speaker 2 It almost says nothing about right-linging anti-Semitism. It mentions social media posts, but says nothing about Elon Musk or, say, right-wing influencers paddling anti-Semitic theories.

Speaker 2 It says nothing about white replacement theory. This is, of course, a theory promoted by anti-Semites, but goes a step further.

Speaker 2 They say, you know, Jewish people and people of color are conspiring to take white people out of positions of power. That theory has anti-Semitic roots.

Speaker 2 It says nothing that it's solely an attack on the left.

Speaker 1 The Jewish community in the United States is very large and runs the political gamut. There are progressive Jews, there are centrist Jews, there are very conservative Jews in this country.

Speaker 1 How are Jewish groups responding to Project Esther and to what the administration is doing now?

Speaker 2 Well, when this project came out, there was a lot of suspicion from Jewish groups, even those in Israel, saying, look, wait a minute, we appreciate the fighting of anti-Semitism, but yet any kind of task force should have more Jewish voices and possibly it should be Jewish-led.

Speaker 2 The group, the Nexus Project, gave an alternative view to how to fight anti-Semitism, almost a response to Project Esther. They believed that universities should not clamp down on free speech.

Speaker 2 They should not go after those on student visas or those with green card holders, but that they should tackle legitimate concerns about anti-Semitism head on.

Speaker 2 That means saying things that are clearly anti-Semitic, doing things that are clearly discriminating against Jewish students, and take proactive measures for that.

Speaker 2 They do not believe that any attack on free speech is the right answer and in fact could hurt Jewish students. So there is division.

Speaker 2 On the other side, there is one group called Combat Anti-Semitism Movement, which in many ways ways is endorsing the Project Esther campaign.

Speaker 2 In fact, one of their directors at the group's interfaith outreach engagement director said, Look, we support the Trump administration's deportation of those students who are on foreign visas, who are on visas, who are speaking out these protests.

Speaker 2 We endorse it, and in fact, we endorse a lot of the ideas.

Speaker 1 Russell Contreras is a senior reporter at Axios. When we return, many American Jews are deeply concerned about Project Esther, and we're going to hear why.

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Speaker 1 Dove, go ahead, give me your full name and tell me what you do.

Speaker 9 My name is Dove Kent, and I am the U.S. Senior Director of Diaspora Alliance.
Diaspora Alliance confronts anti-Semitism and its distortion.

Speaker 9 And we believe that anti-Semitism corrodes democracy by fueling conspiracy theories and bigotry and misdirecting people's anger, fear, and understanding of power.

Speaker 9 And at the same time, fabricated or reckless accusations of anti-Semitism are used to thwart and malign struggles for human rights, justice, and equality, and make it harder to challenge anti-Semitism when it arises.

Speaker 9 Both of these are true at the same time, and they reinforce each other.

Speaker 1 One thing that we've learned, many of us have learned over the last 18 months or so, is that there are different definitions of anti-Semitism. How do you and the Diaspora Alliance define it?

Speaker 9 Well, what I'll say is that there's actually not a lot of difference in how most Jews or scholars define the basics of anti-Semitism. What people disagree on is how and when that is applied to Israel.

Speaker 9 And so a lot of the fights over the definitions are actually proxy fights for people's politics about Israel and Palestine.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you kind of nailed it there, the really important thing. There's a spectrum of beliefs even within the Jewish community about how questioning Israel relates to anti-Semitism.

Speaker 1 Where do you personally fall on this spectrum?

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think that whether speech or conduct about Zionism in Israel is anti-Semitic should be based on the standards for speech or conduct that apply to anti-Semitic behavior in general.

Speaker 9 But that as a general rule, criticism of Zionism in Israel, opposition to Israel's policies, non-violent political action directed at the state of Israel or its policies are not as such inherently anti-Semitic.

Speaker 1 All right, let's get into the topic at hand, which is Project Esther. Do you remember when you first heard about Project Esther?

Speaker 9 Yes,

Speaker 9 very soon after it came out. It was was published on the one-year anniversary of October 7th.
So it was published on October 7th, 2024.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 right away,

Speaker 9 my colleagues and I were very alarmed by this plan.

Speaker 9 Right when

Speaker 9 Project Esther was rolled out, Most Jewish institutions that you might imagine might be aligned this had actually nothing to say because they'd never heard of it.

Speaker 9 There are

Speaker 9 basically no Jews involved in this plan to supposedly dismantle anti-Semitism.

Speaker 9 The Heritage Foundation, as the core author, and other allied organizations, many of them Christian nationalist organizations.

Speaker 9 And I will say that

Speaker 9 throughout the plan,

Speaker 9 they misuse Jewish text,

Speaker 9 they refer to Jewish groups with the wrong terms, they

Speaker 9 call Jewish positions on anti-Semitism inexplicable.

Speaker 9 In an interview, actually, with a member of the Heritage Foundation, they said something along the lines of: if Jews were doing their job countering anti-Semitism, we wouldn't be in the position we're in now.

Speaker 9 So, the plan really derides Jews throughout it.

Speaker 1 Project Esther is named after figure Queen Esther.

Speaker 1 What's Queen Esther's story?

Speaker 9 The Book of Esther, it's a text that Jews read once a year on the holiday of Purim.

Speaker 9 In the story, Queen Esther makes an intervention with the king in which a mortal decree that the king's advisor had made against the Jewish people is instead turned against the advisor.

Speaker 9 So the victims become the heroes. But within the story is also the idea that those lines are not so binary and that what is good and what is evil may change.

Speaker 9 The story of Esther has been repurposed by far-right Christian political movements. There's a phrase from the text that Esther was put into a position of power for such a time as this.

Speaker 9 And that phrase has been used by extremist groups like Moms for Liberty, protesters at the U.S.

Speaker 9 Capitol on January 6th, the Esther call to the mall that brought hundreds of evangelical women to DC to protest reproductive rights.

Speaker 13 But who knows, Esther?

Speaker 6 Who knows?

Speaker 13 But perhaps you were born for such a time as this.

Speaker 9 Queen Esther is invoked for this idea of spiritual warfare that must be waged against evil in the world, this battle against demonic forces that Christian nationalists believe they are in.

Speaker 9 So it makes sense that the Heritage Foundation would invoke this Christian nationalist frame for a kind of warfare against liberal civil society.

Speaker 1 We heard in the first half of the show about the actions that Project Esther recommends to fight anti-Semitism. Your reaction on reading it is: what exactly?

Speaker 1 Do you think what they are suggesting will work, would work?

Speaker 9 No.

Speaker 9 Next question. No, just kidding.

Speaker 9 We cannot terrorize or incarcerate or deport or fire or infiltrate our way out of anti-Semitism. That's just not how it works.

Speaker 9 And we certainly can't dismantle constitutional protections as a way to combat anti-Semitism when we know that Jewish safety in the U.S. depends on constitutional democracy and minority protections.

Speaker 9 So deporting international students doesn't combat anti-Semitism. Public firings don't combat anti-Semitism.
Withholding funds from research institutions doesn't combat anti-Semitism.

Speaker 9 Arresting activists doesn't combat anti-Semitism.

Speaker 9 And there is no city or country in the world where these kinds of actions have been applied that have seen any increase in Jewish safety or decrease in anti-Semitic ideas or behaviors.

Speaker 1 We've seen the Trump administration come out and, for example, insist that Mahmoud Khalil is a supporter of Hamas.

Speaker 1 When asked for proof, when asked for evidence, the administration hasn't been able to provide anything. Now, Project Esther names a, quote, Hamas support network as the root of a lot of anti-Semitism.

Speaker 1 We heard in the first half of the show that this is not like a real organization. So what is the goal of saying Mahmoud Khalil and people like him are part of the Hamas support network?

Speaker 9 Yes.

Speaker 9 So agreeing with your earlier guest that this phrase, Hamas Support Network, was just made up by the Heritage Foundation and its allies as a smear for any organization that supports Palestinian rights and humanity.

Speaker 9 This is part of an effort to completely conflate support for Palestinian rights and humanity with support for Hamas.

Speaker 9 Project Esther's scope extends well beyond these groups to target a wide spectrum of liberal donors, foundations, and organizations that also do not in any way support Hamas.

Speaker 9 The plan even names anti-capitalist groups, claiming that they align with America's overseas enemies.

Speaker 9 And all of this just sets the stage for guilt by association and exposes the true intent of Project Esther, which is dismantling civil society institutions such as universities and nonprofit organizations as a way to get rid of any any domestic opposition to the administration, all under the guise of protecting Jews.

Speaker 9 And there's another important note here.

Speaker 9 What they're doing with the term Hamas support network is trying to create in the minds of Americans a whole class of people who are associated with terrorism and violence and therefore do not deserve the protections of U.S.

Speaker 9 law, including immigration law. So when the administration starts to detain and deport people through illegal means, as they are currently doing, they are banking that Americans won't protest.

Speaker 9 And it's directly connected to what they're doing in sending immigrants to prison in El Salvador under the false premise that they're all connected to a violent gang.

Speaker 9 And one other thing I'll say is that Project Esther has literally nothing to say about the fire hose of anti-Semitism and conspiracy theories coming out of the far right in this country, which are the leading drivers of anti-Semitic violence in the U.S., according to any and every serious study.

Speaker 9 So the sole target of this is pro-Palestinian groups and beyond, who they accuse of being not just anti-Semitic, but also anti-American.

Speaker 1 What does all of this mean for Jews in the United States?

Speaker 9 Well,

Speaker 9 The Trump administration's initial attacks on students and higher education that we are seeing seeing as the very clear rollout of Project Esther

Speaker 9 don't just not work against anti-Semitism. They actively stoke anti-Semitism by making Jews the face of authoritarian crackdowns.
People are losing their jobs.

Speaker 9 They're losing funding for critical scientific research. They're losing their freedoms, supposedly in our name.

Speaker 9 And this feeds into anti-Semitic conspiracy theories about shadowy outside Jewish power and makes Jews the one to blame for the longtime Christian nationalist goal of dismantling higher education.

Speaker 9 So the immediate and long-term impact of Project Esther, ironically, is an increase in anti-Semitism across the country on top of the incredible harm being done to international students, educators, researchers, and all of us who benefit from free speech and academic inquiry.

Speaker 9 This is an effective strategy by the right because they're executing the policies they want to anyway, but they're doing so in the name of fighting anti-Semitism.

Speaker 9 The erosion of those rights makes all communities less safe, including Jews.

Speaker 9 And any work to carve out exceptions, whoever they target or claim to protect, undermine the universal protection that actually makes us all safe.

Speaker 9 I'll also say that it is abundantly clear that the Trump administration is not truly working on behalf of Jewish safety.

Speaker 9 Trump's right-hand man, Elon Musk, is working to dismantle the federal government while repopularizing the Nazi salute, running a platform rife with anti-Semitic conspiracies, and encouraging German politicians to abandon their post-Holocaust commitment to keeping far-right extremists out of power.

Speaker 9 The administration is filled with appointees who have long histories of spreading anti-Semitic conspiracy theories.

Speaker 9 They've defunded the Office of Civil Rights for Universities, which is the very body that is tasked with reviewing and enforcing rules against anti-Semitism and other forms of discrimination on campus.

Speaker 9 It's also clear that no one in this administration cares about bigotry or discrimination of any kind, unless it's an invented and inverted anti-white or anti-Christian discrimination.

Speaker 9 And American Jews can see that this administration is not truly fighting for our safety.

Speaker 1 Dove Kent is a senior director with the Diaspora Alliance. If you're interested in this and you want to read Project Esther, you can find a link in our show notes today.

Speaker 1 Amanda Llewellyn produced Jolie Myers Edited Laura Bullard and Victoria Chamberlain Check the Facts, and Patrick Boyd is our engineer. I'm Noelle King.
It's Today Explained.

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