Super mad about Superman

Speaker 1 The number one movie in the country is Superman. It might be the number one movie in the world.

Speaker 2 Are you being serious right now?

Speaker 1 Yeah, but not everybody is loving it.

Speaker 3 Recently, you've come under a lot of fire for what some might be.

Speaker 4 It's a lot.

Speaker 1 Kellyanne Conway is mad about it.

Speaker 5 The guy who stars as Superman had the audacity to say instead of fighting for truth, liberty, and great values in America, he refused to say the last part.

Speaker 1 Ben Shapiro is mad about it.

Speaker 7 The reality that Hollywood is so far to the left that they cannot take a core piece of Americana and just say it's about America.

Speaker 1 Even TV Superman Dean Kane is concerned.

Speaker 8 Look, don't try and make it all woke and crazy.

Speaker 1 What, if anything, is woke and crazy about the new Superman movie coming up on Dean Kane explained?

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Speaker 1 Today explained, Sean Ramisferm. I'm here with Siddhant Adlaka, who's a film critic who recently wrote about the new Superman movie for Vulture.

Speaker 1 Siddhant, I went and saw the Superman movie last night, and it was a totally nice summer blockbuster about doing the right thing and caring about other people, and it's going to heal our country, country, right?

Speaker 13 Obviously, there's you know nothing controversial about it whatsoever, and uh we can all just take a breather and relax and move on.

Speaker 1 Oh, perfect. I don't know what we're even gonna talk about then.
What should we talk about?

Speaker 13 Great, thank you for having me. I'll see you folks next time.

Speaker 13 No, as with everything nowadays, um, it has become a flashpoint in a nonsensical, divisive culture war.

Speaker 13 And if I'm not mistaken, the the series of events that led to what we're going to talk about is the director of Superman, James Gunn, simply stating,

Speaker 13 you know, yeah, Superman is an immigrant, which is a thing we've known since 1938.

Speaker 14 You said it's an immigrant story, it's a political movie, MAGA today is going nuts. What do you have to say to MAGA?

Speaker 15 I don't have anything.

Speaker 14 I think this movie's for everybody. I don't have anything to say to anybody.
Like, I'm not here to judge people, you know.

Speaker 14 You know, I think this is a movie about kindness, and I think that's something everyone can relate to.

Speaker 13 If you're even remotely familiar with Superman, none of that should be surprising to you.

Speaker 1 Dude's an alien, right? He's an alien.

Speaker 13 He was born on Krypton, which is very, very, very far away. Very far away from the US border.

Speaker 1 Like even farther than Venezuela?

Speaker 13 Slightly farther than Venezuela.

Speaker 1 I'd have to check my maps.

Speaker 13 But regardless of that,

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 13 speaking of it in this technical way

Speaker 13 is sort of seeding ground to the ridiculousness of the conversation in the first place, because in response to James Gunn saying, you know, he's an immigrant, which is to say, Superman, not James Gunn.

Speaker 13 In response to James Gunn saying that Superman is an immigrant, you had all these right-wing talking heads, and not just like podcasters, you have people on Fox News bringing up how this movie was going to be, you know, politically divisive and shoving this, that, and the other down our throats.

Speaker 16 Hollywood just needs to figure out that people don't want woke movies or woke directors. They just want entertainment.

Speaker 6 We don't go to the movie theater to be lectured to to and to have somebody throw their ideology onto us.

Speaker 7 So he's now trying to make the case effectively that Superman is kind of an illegal immigrant.

Speaker 18 You know what it says on his cape?

Speaker 15 MS-13.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 13 And it just speaks to how charged even a phrase like immigrant has become.

Speaker 1 Do any of these pundits making noise on Fox News or various podcasts have specific gripes with this movie? Or is it just all, oh, he likes immigrants?

Speaker 13 I think a lot of them just haven't seen it.

Speaker 13 But a lot of what we do see in the movie does speak to our current political moment in more interesting ways.

Speaker 13 Like, you know, the idea of

Speaker 13 dropping people into legal limbo and stripping them of their rights.

Speaker 13 So there's a scene where Superman is captured by Lex Luthor and his cronies, and there's a brief exchange about how

Speaker 13 due process and the expectation of basic civil rights does not apply to him because he is an alien.

Speaker 13 You know, used in the very literal way of him being not from Earth, but also at the same time in this charged metaphorical sense in that, you know, he is an alien immigrant.

Speaker 13 And then he is subsequently placed in this sort of interdimensional prison where not only there are literal aliens being held, but also

Speaker 13 political opponents of Lex Luthor.

Speaker 13 So there is a lot in there that is distinctly political. And I think, you know, ironically, that's not what the right wing seems to be glumming onto.

Speaker 1 But they're just mad about a statement a guy made in an interview. Yeah.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 some of what people are upset at is the perception that the film has

Speaker 13 an anti-Israel or pro-Palestine bent. And I think it can certainly be read that way, some subplots of it.

Speaker 13 I don't think the film has a distinct or coherent ideology when it comes to actual, concrete, real-world geopolitical events.

Speaker 13 But at the same time, it is, it's, you know, it's Superman is a fable for children, and it's going to break down anything complex into something simple. And if the simplest version of that idea is,

Speaker 13 hey, the big militaristic country is bullying the small defenseless country, and that's wrong, and you should help people.

Speaker 13 And if you're offended by the simplest version of that idea that a five-year-old can understand, that's more of a personal problem.

Speaker 1 Has anyone involved with this movie come out and talked about the intention of the politics of this movie?

Speaker 1 I guess we can't say this movie is apolitical because it does feel like it is trying to say something. I think that thing is

Speaker 1 don't kill people, be nice, but I can't be sure.

Speaker 13 yeah I believe James Gunn has said in an interview that when he was writing the geopolitical aspect of this movie

Speaker 13 the conflict in Gaza was not on his mind

Speaker 13 but I think regardless of the intent what seems to be a much more interesting conversation is the fact that so many people are

Speaker 13 reading into it a parallel to Israel and Palestine.

Speaker 19 Without a doubt, that is genuinely the most pro-Palestine I have seen a mainstream film ever be.

Speaker 12 Oh, that was good.

Speaker 20 Superman truly was for the people.

Speaker 15 Even if James Gunn came out and swore on his mother's life that this was not an analogue to Israel-Palestine, they're just, it's, it's lying.

Speaker 13 And I think that speaks to the way this particular issue has taken over our mainstream consciousness.

Speaker 13 A few years ago, if they'd seen this exact movie, they may not have had that same reaction. Whereas now, that's one of the first things people think about.

Speaker 13 And I don't think the film has a, you know, a coherent ideology around Zionism or something like that. I think it's just, you know, big militaristic bully takes on small weak country.

Speaker 1 People might be going to see a movie like this to sort of forget for maybe two hours about Israel and Gaza and Russia and Ukraine and, I don't know, the president of the United States, whatever it might be.

Speaker 1 Is the fact that this movie might not be a complete escape from those news stories, those crises,

Speaker 1 deterring people from seeing it?

Speaker 13 I can't speak to what any one individual might feel about why they might or might not want to see this movie, but at the same time, Superman is a character that's been around almost a century and he has such a distinct place in American pop culture that I have to question, you know, unless you're completely unfamiliar with the character, you've never heard of him, what are you expecting from a Superman movie?

Speaker 13 A character whose motto for the longest time has been, Truth, Justice, and the American Way.

Speaker 13 You know, he comes saddled with political baggage, whether you like it or not.

Speaker 17 So

Speaker 13 there is going to be escapism, but only to a degree, because the reason a character like Superman exists is to, you know, whether it's for adults or for children, to confront questions about doing what is ostensibly right.

Speaker 13 That's the function of Superman, you know, as a character.

Speaker 13 His function is to,

Speaker 13 I suppose, simplify moral questions we might think of as too complex to address

Speaker 13 in a single sentence. You know, this even comes up early on in the movie.

Speaker 3 Recently, you've come under a lot of fire for what somebody

Speaker 13 Lois Lane is talking about the political complexities of the conflict between the the fictional countries boravia and jharanpur today the secretary of defense said he was going to look into your actions

Speaker 13 that that's funny my actions and superman's whole outlook on it is

Speaker 13 no i i have to save people i have to you know do the right thing and protect people that's all that matters i stopped a war and

Speaker 13 Whether he's talking about a complex conflict in the Middle East or he's talking about about saving a cat from a tree, it is going to make you think about the way you approach the world.

Speaker 13 So I don't think it's as simple as, you know, a movie entirely removing you from reality versus confronting it.

Speaker 13 I think it's, you know, it's a Superman movie at the end of the day, and it will have a certain relationship to reality.

Speaker 1 Siddhant Abbaca has written a few few pieces about Superman for Vulture, but the one most germane to our conversation today is titled Superman Was Always an Immigrant.

Speaker 1 Since it seems like people need a reminder of who this character has always been, we're gonna ask the person a lot of Superman Super fans say wrote the best Superman comic ever when we return on Today Explained.

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Speaker 17 Easy, miss. I've got you.

Speaker 17 You've got me? Who's got you?

Speaker 14 Today it's claimed.

Speaker 2 I can't believe it. I just.

Speaker 1 Grant Morrison grew up on the west coast of Scotland right next to an American nuclear base.

Speaker 17 My parents were anti-nuclear activists. You know, my father was a World War II soldier who became a peacenick.

Speaker 17 And uh

Speaker 17 so my big fear in the world was the atom bomb and i kind of associated it with the americans but the americans also brought the comics comic books changed grant's life

Speaker 17 the whole idea for me was that the atom bomb terrified me Then I discovered Superman and I suddenly realised Superman's a better idea than the Atom Bomb.

Speaker 17 The Atom Bomb and Superman both started out as ideas and I like this one better.

Speaker 17 And although I knew no real Superman was coming to save me from an actual atom bomb, that that metaphorically really solved a lot of problems for my head when I was a little kid. So

Speaker 17 those are the primal roots for me and they're quite deep.

Speaker 17 So yeah, getting a chance to do that character, sitting here overlooking that same stretch of water, you know, where we did the protests and associates with my father and with the bomb and with so many things in comic books as well, to write All-Star Superman kind of defy the forces of entropy.

Speaker 17 Because I feel that if anything survives in my career it will be that one book.

Speaker 1 All-Star Superman is widely regarded by the Superman heads out there as the GOAT, the greatest Superman comic series ever written, ever, in like almost 90 years of Superman.

Speaker 1 We asked Grant who the Superman was that he created in that series.

Speaker 17 I think, well, we went for an older Superman. Our basic idea was that what if Superman was dying and he had a year to live? And basically, it's a part of Lex Luthor's scheme.

Speaker 17 He sends Superman to the sun, and the solar radiation overcharges Superman's cells, so they begin to decay and die. So it's basically Superman's dying of cancer.

Speaker 21 No one can repair the sun but me, Lois.

Speaker 21 I'm turning into pure energy.

Speaker 17 And the idea of what would this man do in the last 12 months of his life to leave the earth a better place than he found it?

Speaker 1 Were you surprised to find out that James Gunn wanted to relaunch this character and relaunch an entire cinematic universe, as they come to call it now,

Speaker 1 with your story about a dying Superman?

Speaker 17 Yeah, well, I mean, I think what James didn't necessarily take the dying part of it, because I've seen the movie now and obviously went in a very different direction.

Speaker 17 His is a younger Superman, but I think he certainly took the character as we decided to refine it. And he saw something in that that he could work with.

Speaker 17 The idea of, you know, instead of Superman having flaws, let's present a fictional character who doesn't have our flaws.

Speaker 17 You know, he has problems of his own, he still can't get the girl, he still works for a boss in an office, but he's Superman, you know,

Speaker 17 he's a kind of everyman whose life happens at a much higher scale than us.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 17 I think James Gunn took that notion of Superman, you know, he's very much us, but played on a larger, more operatic stage.

Speaker 17 He's got an unruly dog crypto but his unruly dog can laser his own dinner and cook a steak his unruly dog can fly through buildings but he's still dealing with an unruly dog crypto ow ow stop it stop sit sit stay for me what i loved about that is rather than previous attempts with people have sort of said what would superman be like if he was in the real world which to me is an absurd question he'll never be in the real world the only existence Superman has in the real world is as a comic book or a movie character and that's where he's most useful and most functional as far as i'm concerned so again i think james took that notion of let's not ask ourselves the ridiculous question what would it be like if superman was real because the answer to that is usually

Speaker 17 he would be super corrupt and you get things like the character homelander from the boys tv show who's a kind of evil superman who's representative of all the worst elements of america you people

Speaker 2 should be thanking Christ that I am who and what I am because you need me.

Speaker 17 But we thought that the original Superman is the best and most useful. He's a fictional character.

Speaker 17 He's a metaphor. He's an allegory.
He stands for everything that is good in us.

Speaker 1 It sounds like there have been at least some iterations of this character throughout his nearly

Speaker 1 century of existence, from your dying version to this ideal version to this all-powerful version.

Speaker 1 But I believe Superman even started as a bit of a tough guy, like a headbasher, and I think maybe even a left-wing revolutionary.

Speaker 1 Can you tell us about like the non-Kryptonian origins of this character, like how he came to be on Earth?

Speaker 17 Well, he was he arrived in Cleveland, Ohio. He was created by two teenagers, Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster, who'd met at school.
And Jerry was the writer, and Joe was the artist.

Speaker 17 And they wanted to work for newspapers. Newspaper syndication was the kind of place to go for cartoons back then.
And they were working on this notion called the Superman.

Speaker 17 The original version was an evil bald guy who eventually became Lex Luthor in the Superman story.

Speaker 17 But after a few tries, they hit on this fabulous notion of let's give him a wrestling costume with a cape so that we can track his movement across the panels and make him very colourful so that he's, you know, he's memorable.

Speaker 18 Kent steps into the storeroom, closes the door behind him, and in a few brief seconds has made the transformation from the mild-mannered, respectable reporter to the red-caped, blue-costumed figure of Superman.

Speaker 17 And then the greatest addition to the design was to put his monogram on his chest so that the character's entire identity is summed up in this really very simple advertising motif that people can remember and people can also wear and partake in that sense of being Superman.

Speaker 17 So yeah, it was created by two young kids who were the sons of immigrants, European immigrants, Jewish boys, and this was their vision of the Superman.

Speaker 22 Who can bend, steel in his bare hands, race a speeding bullet to its target, and who mingled with ordinary men disguised as Clark Kent.

Speaker 17 He was a do-gooder. He was here to help people.
He'd come from a distant world, but he saw the only use for power and strength was to help the downtrodden and help the oppressed.

Speaker 17 So yeah, as you say, those early issues of action comics depict a Superman who's very much an outlaw.

Speaker 17 You know, he just goes after corrupt union bosses, he goes after mine owners, he goes after politicians who are, you know, corrupt. So he's that person and he's very, he's quite scary, you know.

Speaker 17 He's what I always say is Superman later was seen as a kind of messianic figure of hope, which I don't really like because I think what he is, he's a fighter, he's a scrapper, he gets into fights on behalf of the little guy

Speaker 17 and he gets bloodied up and he gets up again and he's shooting with a tank shell, he gets up again. And that's the character that he was.

Speaker 17 And so as you see through the years, that changed quite radically. You know, the socialist figure of the early years hit 1942 and suddenly it was war and Superman became incredibly patriotic.

Speaker 17 And that's where the Truth, Justice, and the American Way thing first appears.

Speaker 8 Anyone who tries to tell you that a man can't be a good American because he's a Catholic or a Jew, a Protestant or whatever.

Speaker 8 You can be pretty sure he's a rotten American himself.

Speaker 8 Not only a rotten American, but a rotten human being.

Speaker 17 Then in the 50s, Superman changes again completely. You're dealing with guys coming home from the war and dealing with domestication and living in suburbia.

Speaker 17 So Superman becomes a family drama, like I say, but on a Titanic scale. He has

Speaker 17 friends from the future who visit and cause trouble. He has a cousin who's survived krypton.
He has a dog. He has a monkey.
He has all of this stuff. And they added a lot of lore.

Speaker 17 So Superman then, to me, was probably at his peak, but he was representative of masculinity post-war, trying to adjust to a world of relatives and being not necessarily married, but very much those stories were obsessed with the relationship stuff with Loews, you know.

Speaker 17 So

Speaker 17 he was that in the 60s, he becomes Cosmic Seeker. In the 60s, again, he almost goes back to his roots.

Speaker 17 And we have stories where he's fighting for Native American land rights and he's up against polluters and very much back to the activist Superman. And so it goes in the 80s.
He's a yuppie.

Speaker 17 In the 90s, they kill him in order to make it interesting then bring it back very much as a soap opera set around the daily planet and into the 2000s you get the work that i did it's funny to hear you you know lay out this history in which superman at one point is something of a socialist warrior because all of these pundits who are mad about james gunn saying that superman's an immigrant if they really knew the history here there's so much more they could be mad about absolutely as you say if anyone unbothered to look at the history of superman they'd see that he was always an immigrant created by immigrants he represented that experience but he was assimilated i mean the whole thing was he was an american he'd been raised by american parents a baby

Speaker 16 it's a lie

Speaker 16 how could it be

Speaker 17 that was very important as well and i think the combination of these two qualities is what maybe drives people mad because they want it to be either one thing or another but superman's trying to embody embody every

Speaker 1 thing that we talk about the first half of the show is that, you know, depending on

Speaker 1 how tuned into the news you are, you can see a lot of what's going on in the world today in this movie. But of course, this movie wasn't made this week.
It was made, you know, a year ago.

Speaker 1 The meetings about this movie probably started five years ago. Do you think there's something about like the nature of Superman that makes him timeless?

Speaker 17 Oh, I definitely believe that. I mean, as I've said many times, I mean, we're talking about the history of Superman, which goes back to 1938.
Superman has outlived his creators.

Speaker 17 He's also outlived the people who took over from his creators and the next generation of the people who took over from his creators.

Speaker 17 As I often say, Superman is more real than I am. He's more real than most of us.
He will outlive us all and he'll still have meaning to people in the future.

Speaker 17 And because he looks like nothing else people have even forgotten that that was based on early 20th century circus strongman and wrestling outfits people have forgotten that so now it's the template for the superhero this ideal of the superhero and he's got because he was the first he got the best name the most primal name so i absolutely think superman will persist like sherlock holmes and characters like that way beyond even the next few generations as long as the world stays together and there's such a thing as as culture i i think there'll still be a a a superman that is recognizable to us

Speaker 1 grant morrison writes comic books from the most excellent order of the british empire all-star superman is the place to start laura bullard ordered it today she fact-checked today's show amina al-sadi edited patrick boyd mixed and rebecca ibarra produced this episode of Today Explained.

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