Trump's Epstein problem

Speaker 1 It was early this week when Congressman Hank Johnson, Democrat from Georgia's 4th, dropped a parody version of Dreamsicle by Jason Ispel.

Speaker 1 Awful. The congressman was adding his voice to an ever-growing chorus.
Just a day before him, a rapper named Tyson James dropped a bop called Epstein List.

Speaker 2 We want the names of every pedophile on that list. You siding with the devil when you say it don't exist.
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Trump.

Speaker 1 Where'd that list step from? And last night, not other than the Speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, followed suit, but not with bars.

Speaker 3 I mean, the White House and the White House team are privy to facts that I don't know. I mean, this isn't my lane.
I haven't been involved in that.

Speaker 3 But I agree with the sentiment that we need to put it out there.

Speaker 1 Why everyone, except maybe the president himself, hmm, seems to agree that we should see the Epstein files on Today Explained.

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Speaker 7 Mr. President, do you have any reaction to today's lane being named the best news show?

Speaker 8 Wow.

Speaker 1 I'm Sean Ramsfram, and this is David Weigel, who covers politics for Semaphore, including the latest Epstein drama.

Speaker 1 I'm hesitating on where to start because it, in the minds of people who are really interested in this story, it touches on everything.

Speaker 1 It is, as Steve Bannon was telling attendees of Turning Point USA Student Summit last weekend.

Speaker 10 Epstein is a key that picks the lock on so many things, not just individuals, but also institutions, intelligence institutions, foreign governments, and

Speaker 10 who is working with him on our intelligence apparatus and in our government.

Speaker 1 The hold this has had on the minds of a lot of Americans is

Speaker 1 long and deep and serious.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 it has now kind of cannonballed into our politics as something Republicans are opportunistically trying to downpeddle and Democrats are opportunistically trying to hype.

Speaker 1 But they can do all this because there are many Americans who think it's odd that this sex trafficker, one, got away with he was doing for so long, two,

Speaker 1 died in prison, which is quite hard to do without

Speaker 1 committing suicide in prison. They're famously very hard to do.
And he, according to the government, pulled it off.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 that he allegedly had, according to the Trump administration, evidence on a lot of people that no one can see.

Speaker 1 Before we go any further, I want to get this out of the way. Do we know, David, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that what's in these files would even satisfy all the people who would like to see them?

Speaker 1 Well, no, people will not be satisfied by this.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 they will not be satisfied by anything less than, I would say, the most lurid fantasies of what is in this information.

Speaker 1 For example,

Speaker 1 as soon as the DOJ memo went out over a holiday weekend without

Speaker 1 an author on it, I was seeing fake videos of Hillary Clinton entering Epstein's jail.

Speaker 7 I am hearing breaking news.

Speaker 2 More

Speaker 11 of the surveillance footage has been released.

Speaker 12 I knew it!

Speaker 7 Oh, it's always the pantsuits.

Speaker 3 She's so sad. That's how you know it's her.

Speaker 1 You can get a sort of fabricated satisfaction. Will you get total satisfaction that the people that you thought were behind all this all along, probably not.
This is a theme with Trump's campaigns.

Speaker 1 There are people who voted for Trump in 2016 thinking that one, he was going to put Hillary Clinton in jail. Two, the crimes he was going to convict her of were just.

Speaker 1 an unbelievable litany of murders and conspiracies and drug trafficking drug trafficking from Arkansas. And the fact that that didn't didn't

Speaker 1 come out, that it wasn't provable that didn't happen. There are people who moved on and didn't talk a lot about it.
And there are people who will believe until they die that

Speaker 1 the elites covered this up.

Speaker 1 Donald Trump makes for a bit of an awkward messenger in this mission to release the Epstein files, considering unlike, I don't know, say like Kamala Harris, he has a long history and established friendship with the late New York financier Jeffrey Epstein?

Speaker 1 Yes, you've pinpointed the irony of this entire story.

Speaker 1 And I talked to some Democrats over the last few days about why they didn't make hay of his connections to Jeffrey Epstein in 2016, 2020, and 2024, because Democrats just decided that Trump is inoculated

Speaker 1 by his connection to his base, generally speaking.

Speaker 1 They're happy this week to focus on Epstein because the meta-narrative of Trump is that as he's a political outsider who knows all these people backwards and forwards.

Speaker 13 The elite.

Speaker 14 The elite.

Speaker 14 Why are they elite?

Speaker 14 I have a much better apartment than they do.

Speaker 1 And the meta-narrative specifically for Trump among his voters was,

Speaker 1 yeah, Donald Trump's on the record saying he knows Jeff Epstein.

Speaker 9 I had a falling out with him a long time ago. I don't think I've spoken to him for 15 years.
I wasn't a fan.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's on these

Speaker 1 videos and photos of him. However, the problem that ran into around the Epstein story is that Cash Patel.

Speaker 13 And to me, that's a thing I think President Trump should run on.

Speaker 1 On day one, roll out the black book. Diamond Gino.

Speaker 12 Listen, that Jeffrey Epstein story is a big deal.

Speaker 12 Please do not let that story go. Keep your eye on this.

Speaker 1 And all these people said things during the campaign as people who were not. guaranteed the administration that would be proven and they weren't.

Speaker 1 And this is the best ammunition that Democrats have had the last week: video of these guys saying they're going to release this episode information once they get their hands on it.

Speaker 1 You can find this already.

Speaker 1 Conservatives and let's say other anti-politics, anti-establishment voters who voted for Trump, they're still, they want to be faithful in Trump and believe that he's going to do the right thing.

Speaker 1 These other guys are

Speaker 1 dispensable. You could see that the story was turning from people being disappointed in Donald Trump to being disappointed in people he hired.

Speaker 11 In 2016, we trusted the plan with Trump, but now Trump has become the deep state. The exact thing he, we voted him in.

Speaker 14 It's not my place, but I do think the way that I'm seeing it played out is that Bongino will be here and Pam Bondi will be the full guy.

Speaker 1 I feel like we should ring a bell every time the Democrats and the Republicans are calling for the same thing.

Speaker 1 How is it so many of them came to agree on this one? Obvious play for the Dems?

Speaker 1 The downside for them in talking about this is nil. They are not worried about any of them being connected to Jeffrey Epstein's behavior because they know themselves.

Speaker 1 They were not part of this. If every theory of what Epstein was doing was proven to be true, the current leadership of the Democratic Party and the rank-and-file electeds would not suffer at all.

Speaker 1 None of them were connected with it. So it's gotten - it was pretty easy for them to talk about.
They just thought the upside was not very big. Now it's very easy for them to talk about.

Speaker 1 Do they have any power to actually expedite the release of these files, or is it all in the DOJ? No, it's in the DOJ.

Speaker 1 What Democrats have done in the past few days is use opportunities in the Congress to attach an Epstein declassification amendment or language to bills.

Speaker 15 If you're not hiding anything, prove that to the American people. And if you are trying to hide something, as many

Speaker 15 of Donald Trump's MAGA supporters apparently believe,

Speaker 15 then the Congress should actually work hard to try to uncover the truth for the American people.

Speaker 1 It's convenient that they have a video of J.D. Vance telling Theo Von.

Speaker 11 Seriously, we need to release the F-seen list. That is an important thing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they have that video. They could run that.
Is this going to be a top voting issue in 2028? Who knows? But it's helpful to them.

Speaker 1 They have a video of the likely next Republican nominee making this promise that he couldn't keep.

Speaker 1 And the worst case scenario for them is the administration reverses. It is released.
And they have a bunch of information that's damaging to Republicans and not themselves.

Speaker 1 It's a very low-risk bet for them, which is the kind of bet Democrats like to make. Trump doesn't seem to have satisfying answers for his base,

Speaker 1 for the people who are very loud and very online saying this is a betrayal. Does he just hope this is going to go away? Lots of stuff has gone away.

Speaker 1 Trump has had a lot of problems that were going to take him out, and they didn't.

Speaker 1 If I were Donald Trump, I'd be very confident that I can beast this out the way that I did the Access Hollywood tape, the way that I did indictments, that I'll get lucky and that people will move on.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 the moment of maximum disappointment in Trump from the voters we're talking about was this cabinet meeting

Speaker 1 after the DOJ memo where a reporter is asking Pam Bondi at the table, Pam Bondi, not Trump, asking Pam Bondi to clarify some of what the memo says and why the files that she said were on her desk have not been released.

Speaker 1 And Trump intervenes and gets annoyed that the media is still asking about it.

Speaker 9 Yeah, sure.

Speaker 9 Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking, we have Texas, we have this, we have all of the things.

Speaker 9 And are people still talking about this guy, this creep?

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 the only thing I'd say is that there is always a search in the press for is this going to be the moment when Trump loses his base, where the MAGA movement gets disappointed.

Speaker 1 That hasn't really happened

Speaker 1 for anything.

Speaker 1 And there is

Speaker 1 enormous capacity for forgiveness. But electorally, we're looking at the midterms, we're looking at 2028.
And if there are millions of voters who

Speaker 1 came into the coalition, let's say, with RFK Jr.

Speaker 1 and Tulsi Gabbard because they thought he was going to turn everything upside down, well, what is, he's done some things that no other president did, but he's also, he was going to end the war in Ukraine day one, and he's, he's selling arms to NATO so that they can give them to Ukraine.

Speaker 1 He was going to end the war in, in, in Gaza. It's not, it's not over.
There are ceasefires and hosts getting up. He's not done that.
And he didn't do this.

Speaker 1 And so there is a, it's not showing up in donations to Republicans, but when Republicans go back to the Trump electorate and say, hey, we noticed that you didn't usually vote, but you voted in 2024 or excited again.

Speaker 1 A lot of them are going to say, nope, I don't trust anybody now.

Speaker 1 But you are seeing people who were not normal Republicans, didn't usually vote in midterms. Those people have drifted away and they have a very low level of faith right now.

Speaker 1 I don't think they're going to walk away completely from

Speaker 1 Trump over this, but they're not going to be Trump hype men the way they were in October 2024.

Speaker 1 Semiphor.com, that's where you can read David Weigel. The Epstein files live at the Department of Justice, so we are going to head there next on Today Explained.

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Speaker 12 I'm talking about Jeff Epstein, the New York Financier.

Speaker 13 My name is Ellie Hoenig. I am a former federal and state prosecutor, and I am the author of the upcoming book, When You Come at the King, Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President from Nixon to Trump.

Speaker 1 And when you say you're a former prosecutor, remind us where.

Speaker 13 I was a Fed at the Southern District of New York, which will become relevant to this conversation, as that is the office that prosecuted both Jeffrey Epstein and Jelaine Maxwell.

Speaker 13 And then I was a state prosecutor later as well.

Speaker 1 So before we get to all the questions, let me just ask you a simple one.

Speaker 18 If you're someone out there who's like, release the Epstein files, all of us as Americans, not as Democrats, not as liberals, not as Republicans, are actually lining together and saying we all want the Epstein files.

Speaker 1 Who should they be most mad at right now that they don't have their Epstein files?

Speaker 13 I'm going to answer with a what rather than a who.

Speaker 13 The first thing they should be mad at is an ancient DOJ policy that says we DOJ, we federal prosecutors, do not just turn over, make public our closed investigative files because people want to know.

Speaker 13 People want to know a lot of things. People want to see all the closed files on the Trump cases.
People want to see every piece of paper from Robert Herr's investigation of Joe Biden.

Speaker 13 People want to see everything from the Hunter-Biden cases. But there is a long-standing DOJ policy and principle that has been observed by both political parties that we don't turn these things over.

Speaker 13 We don't slag people in public who can't defend themselves, who aren't charged with anything, who don't have the ability to go to trial.

Speaker 1 But what's confusing people, I think, about that policy, at least right now, is one very specific moment.

Speaker 1 Not all the moments where other people said these things should be released, but the moment where the person in charge of the department that doesn't typically release this kind of information said that she would.

Speaker 1 Why would Pam Bondi say that?

Speaker 8 It's sitting on my desk right now to review. That's been a directive by President Trump.

Speaker 1 If she didn't intend to look into that, did something happen?

Speaker 13 The answer is: I have no earthly idea. But yeah, Pam Bondi has just handled this whole situation in an utterly inexplicable, inconsistent, and I think often dishonest manner.

Speaker 13 I mean, look, she blazes into office as Attorney General, and she basically, by her actions, makes clear, I don't give a crap about that policy that I just talked about.

Speaker 13 I'm going to be turning this all over. I'm going to break the cover off this thing, and you all are going to know everything.

Speaker 8 I think tomorrow, Jesse, breaking news right now, you're going to see some Epstein information being released by my office.

Speaker 13 By the way, it goes back. If you remember, months ago, Pam Bondi had her much ballyhooed phase one disclosure, right?

Speaker 13 She called all these conservative influencers to the White House and gave them these white, thick binders labeled the Epstein files phase one.

Speaker 13 And you've seen the photo of people triumphantly holding up these files. Well, what happened when they opened those binders?

Speaker 19 Absolutely nothing was in them.

Speaker 4 It came out later.

Speaker 19 From those influencers, among others, who I think were also disappointed. Not a single new thing was printed or offered.
And this whole thing had been some sort of Europa do.

Speaker 13 And maybe at that point, Pam Bondi was hoping, all right, let's just hope this kind of fades away.

Speaker 13 Clearly, when she said it's sitting on my desk right now to review, it wasn't because it appears there is no client list per se.

Speaker 13 Now, that doesn't mean nobody is implicated, but this notion that there's some list, there's some piece of paper entitled Jeffrey Epstein's client list, one, two, three, seems to be pretty clearly an oversimplification.

Speaker 13 So I think that's the $64,000 question. Why this very sudden, very stark turnabout?

Speaker 1 Well, since we can't necessarily answer that question yet, can we maybe answer the question of like how Pam Bondi came to be sitting at the top of the United States Department of Justice?

Speaker 13 So Pam Bondi on paper looked like she was quite qualified to be the Attorney General of the United States. She had been a prosecutor for 20 years.

Speaker 13 She was the Attorney General of Florida, the state attorney general for two terms, for eight years.

Speaker 13 And so if you just take that resume, I'd say, yeah, that's actually quite comparable to several other AGs and more prosecutorial experience.

Speaker 1 Perhaps more qualified than, say, like, I don't know, Matt Gates.

Speaker 10 Speaking of government bureaucrats.

Speaker 13 Yeah, Matt Gates had zero qualifications.

Speaker 13 The objections that were lodged to her related to her independence and her credibility. Primarily, two things.
One is she has a long history with Trump.

Speaker 13 She has represented him briefly during one of his impeachments. They've had political support for one another.
That's not that big a deal.

Speaker 13 The bigger problem, though, is she was and in part remains a 2020 election denier. Pam, did you just say fake ballots?

Speaker 8 There could be. That's the problem.
If they're letting

Speaker 13 anybody know, Steve.

Speaker 7 Do you have, have you heard stories of

Speaker 13 ballots that are fake? And if so, just tell us what you you know.

Speaker 8 Well, we know that ballots have been dumped. There were ballots that were found early on.
We've heard that people were receiving ballots that were dead.

Speaker 13 And when she was confronted about this at her confirmation hearing in 2025 about her election denial.

Speaker 1 Who won the 2020 presidential election?

Speaker 8 She fell back on the old cop-out line of Joe Biden is the president of the United States.

Speaker 13 She wouldn't disavow her prior election denialism.

Speaker 1 And meanwhile, there's been a lot of writing that Pam Bondi has perhaps brought the Justice Department under Donald Trump in a way that we haven't seen in decades.

Speaker 1 What do you think is the clearest evidence of that?

Speaker 13 Oh, I think that's true, and I think it's provable.

Speaker 13 I mean, if we think back through the last many AGs, and by the way, I'd include Donald Trump's prior AGs, Bill Barr, who, by the way, my first book is a criticism of Bill Barr's tenure as Trump's AG called Hatchet Man.

Speaker 13 But I think Bondi is different and worse.

Speaker 1 Because even Bill Barr didn't believe the big lie.

Speaker 9 There's been no discrepancy reported anywhere that's looked at that. And I'm still not aware of any discrepancy.

Speaker 13 Barr had his lines. Bondi has no lines.
And I'll give you something that to me was a really telling moment for Pam Bondi. It's kind of been almost forgotten already in the shuffle of it all.

Speaker 13 The signal scandal.

Speaker 1 Hours before the U.S. launched these surprise attacks on the Houthi militant group in Yemen, the Atlantic's editor-in-chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, had all the details right in front of him.

Speaker 12 In addition to Goldberg, the chat included National Security Advisor Michael Waltz, Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Director of National Intelligence Tulsa.

Speaker 13 What does Pambandi do?

Speaker 1 At a minimum,

Speaker 1 any

Speaker 13 modestly halfway semi-independent AG would at least say, we're going to investigate, we're going to get to the bottom of this, and then who knows, maybe come back in six months and say, all right, we looked at it.

Speaker 13 And while people were reckless, there was nothing quite criminal. Pam Bondi, in contrast, basically announces three days in.

Speaker 8 It was sensitive information, not classified, and inadvertently released. And what we should be talking about is it was a very successful mission.

Speaker 13 And that moment to me showed us that she is completely at Trump's beck and call and she will never intentionally do anything contrary to Trump's political interests.

Speaker 1 Like maybe release the Epstein files.

Speaker 13 Well, there you go. I mean, that's one of the theories that's out there that perhaps there's something in there that's bad for Trump.

Speaker 16 So now by coming in and being part of the cover-up, the Trump administration has become part of it. I mean, it's just, you cannot see it any other way.

Speaker 13 By the way, who knows? But it's already been disclosed that Trump is in the address book, the black book. There's all sorts of phone numbers for Donald Trump and Mar-a-Lago in there.

Speaker 13 We know they're old friends.

Speaker 13 I mean, this is a sort of forgotten moment, but Donald Trump, some magazine, did a magazine feature on Jeffrey Epstein years ago, before he had been convicted of any crime.

Speaker 13 And both Bill Clinton and Donald Trump are quoted in the magazine.

Speaker 13 And Trump's quote that he gave is something like, he sure does like beautiful women even younger than I do, or something, I'm not getting it word for word, but it's very close to that.

Speaker 13 So would it be shocking if there was something embarrassing for Donald Trump in those files or Bill Clinton or whoever? No.

Speaker 1 Do you think the anger that's directed at Pam Bondi right now is misdirected?

Speaker 1 And in fact, it should be going right to the top when Donald Trump is out there clearly stating he has no desire to see these files released, not to mention has previously made, you know, no secret of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

Speaker 13 Yeah, let me put it this way. Either one of the president or the attorney general has the power almost without question to disclose whatever they want to disclose like that with a snap of the fingers.

Speaker 13 You know, at one point, I think it was Pam Bondi said, well, we'd have to do redactions and there's victims.

Speaker 13 And yes, so of course you'd have to protect victims and minors and redact out pornographic materials and all that stuff.

Speaker 13 However, any one of them does have the ability to disclose whatever they deem fit tonight if they wanted to.

Speaker 1 You think they'll do it?

Speaker 13 There's two ways I see this going.

Speaker 13 I don't think they'll ever open the files and just say, here you go, everybody.

Speaker 13 I think either they will try to appease the public and the media by making some sort of partial, halfway disclosure, but that's not going to satisfy anybody.

Speaker 13 And Pam Bandi just now reiterated she is sticking to that DOJ FBI memo. She said that memo that says basically nothing more to see here, no cases to be brought and case closed.

Speaker 13 Basically, Pambondi just doubled down on that. She said, that's our position, and I'm not answering any other questions.

Speaker 13 So, if people are wondering, are we ever going to just see a complete dump and complete satisfaction?

Speaker 13 No, I don't think that's ever going to happen.

Speaker 1 Ellie Hoenig, you heard about his book and his other book, but he also writes for New York magazine, subscribe at nymag.com.

Speaker 1 Our show is produced by Denise Guerra and Hadi Mawagdi, edited by Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, and mixed by Patrick Boyd and Matthew Billy. This is Today Explained.

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