A Walz to Remember

Here's a fun one. We took Today Explained on the road this past weekend to Austin, Texas for South by Southwest, where we spoke with Governor Tim Walls.
Remember Tim Walls? These are weird people on the other side. Minnesota nice, teacher, coach, hunter, husband, father, Kamala Harris, running mate.
And I gotta tell you, I can't wait to debate the guy.

That is if he's willing to get off the couch and show up.

We spoke about 2024. How many votes do you think Liz Cheney won you guys?

Yeah, not enough. I'd say that.
So obviously it's not enough.

But also what a year 2025 has already been and even a little 2028. And today on the show, we're going to bring you a condensed version of our South by Southwest conversation.
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Hello, everyone. This is Today Explained live at South by Southwest on the Vox Media Podcast stage.
I'm Sean Ramos for him, and you know who this is. Governor Tim Walz.
Good to be with you, Sean. Thanks for coming out, everybody.
I was mentioning to him, these are the folks that didn't get the Michelle Obama tickets, so welcome. I'm told she's next week.
They're here for you. Yeah, yeah, all right.
I want to ask you a question about weird. Do you think these guys are still weird? These guys? No, these guys.
Those guys. Remember those guys? Oh, those guys.
Oh, hell yes. Yes, yes, yes.
Look, obsessing with choices people are making about their own lives that has absolutely zero to do with you, that is weird. That might be too soft.
That is really unnecessary. You were presumably chosen partially because of that moment, because you seemed to be particularly good at messaging.
And I was scrolling through your Twitter over the past few months, and I saw one tweet that I thought was indicative of you still being better than your average Democrat at messaging. You said, Elon Musk is a terrible president.
He threatened to sue me after that. No, he didn't.
Did he really? Yes, he did. He threatened to sue me.
It was that, and I called him a Nazi, and that did not help. So that might have been overboard, but no, it wasn't.
Did you watch the joint session this week? Yeah, parts of it I did. I felt like the messaging from the Democrats was muddled at that joint session.
Some didn't show up at all, some left early, some wore pink and held up these feeble signs that said, you know, false or this is not normal. We all saw Representative Al Green protest stand up.
I served with Al Green. That is a good man.
But there wasn't a unified message. did you want to see something more unified from your party yes yes other than bidding on an antique tea set or whatever was happening so yes i wanted something more than that but but look i think for all of us it was you know will rogers made that case in the 30s that uh i don't belong to any organized party i'm a democrat and And the herding cats piece of that.
But what I know is, and at least I'm hearing it from my constituents in Minnesota and I'm hearing it across the country, there's a primal scream of do something, do something. Now I have the advantage as a governor, I can do something.
We can put up firewalls against them. You're not going to demonize our people.
We're going to continue to make sure our children are fed. We're going to, I called the premiers of Ontario and Manitoba and said, look, the official policy is theirs, but we like you.
We like Canadians. We like what we trade together.
And so that message of how to do it. And I'm making the case.
look, when I get asked this, what should we be doing? I'm probably the last guy. I didn't get it done, and we needed to win.
And that's where we're in this pickle because we didn't win. But I'm being reflective of what I could have done better, what I should have done better.
I don't have a big solution. But what I think for all of us is what's encouraging to me, these town halls, the kind of organic folks bringing up, there's not going to be a charismatic leader ride in and come up with this just perfectly delivered message that's going to get us out of this.
It's going to be a whole bunch of people who don't want to see kids go hungry, who don't want to see healthcare ripped apart, who don't want to throw Ukraine under the bus on the side of Russia, those folks are going to stand up and make a difference. So yes, in answer to your question, yes, it's frustrating, but it's hard.
I served for 12 years in Congress and someone said, would you like to go back? I said, I would rather eat glass than go back to Congress. Why is that? It's frustrating now.
You can't get things done. And look, I came from a very, I was since 1892 in the congressional district where I was at two Democrats won that seat.
I got reelected in 2016 for the last time. And I had the same positions or whatever.
Now I'll acknowledge to you, it has shifted dramatically. I probably couldn't win that congressional district having the same positions.
And what's happened with that is it eroded to the point where you don't have the crossover. And as a governor, I can do things.
I don't want to hold up a bidding paddle when President Trump is lying about what the future is going to hold for us. James Carville said in a New York Times op-ed that the Democrats should sort of roll over and play dead, let the Republicans have their way with the government, anger voters to the point that they're repulsed by their policies, and then go for a shot in the jugular.
What do you think of that strategy? Well, I don't agree with it, and I don't agree with it in this, that, well, first, this idea that people need to feel the pain. I'm going to do all I can as governor.
What I said, it's going to be painful. But I said to my team is that we protect the most vulnerable and we protect our gains.
That's what we're going to do. Now, I know that what James is saying is when somebody's digging a hole, let them keep digging.
Don't get in. I'm kind of the adage, especially with these guys, let's help them dig and get this hole done faster so people start flipping and we can start fixing this thing quicker.
So I don't think just setting back and letting the policies that are go for it, this isn't simple disagreement on tax rates, simple disagreement on how much we should do on defense spending versus domestic or whatever. This is an all out assault around Article 1 of the Constitution.
Again, I don't want to overreact, but I said this last week and I stand by this. The road to authoritarianism is littered with people saying you're overreacting.
And I think that piece of it, of speaking out, matters. Since you understand how Congress works, you were there.
What would you be doing if you were there right now? It seems like Democrats, you know, they don't have power. They can't do much.
James Carl was saying, great, you don't have to let them mess this up. But if you were sitting there right now, what do you think you would be doing or saying? Yeah, it's hard.
And the thing about Congress, some of the folks with less hair in here to remember this, remember that I'm just a bill sitting on Capitol Hill Hill. That's total bull crap.
It doesn't work that way. But look, it was relationships.

It was things that you could do. I'm not there.
So this is second guessing. And again, if I'm

criticizing anybody in Congress, they are rightfully to say, oh, says my son did this.

And I'm giving him wisdom from a father. And in the middle of that wisdom lecture, he said,

oh yeah, says the guy who got his ass kicked by Donald Trump. And so I'm like, okay, fair enough.
So I don't want to be the guy to lecture them, but I don't think you give them a single vote on these unqualified members of the cabinet. And I think you make it clear that the American public, you're voting for them.
Okay, I got, I got one more practical question about Congress and then we'll move on. But funding for the federal government set to run out on Friday.
How do you want to see Democrats navigate that one? This is the really difficult question. And this is where it's going to sound like a bit contradictory on my part, this idea of not wanting people to suffer or whatever.

This is one of those cases, though. This is their responsibility.
Things like the debt ceiling.

Just be very clear. Nobody, when your party has power, it's your responsibility to raise the debt

ceiling. And that's to pay the bills that have already been done.
That's not increased spending.

And every single time, people don't want to do that because it's like bad messaging. But you've got to do it.
When Barack Obama needed it to rise the debt ceiling, I voted to do that. So I'm part of doing that.
I would argue we're in a different time and what's happening right now. And I think if the Republicans can't pass a budget with the presidency, the House

and the Senate, you let them figure that part out. And if the government shuts down now, here's what I worry about is I care deeply about the shutdown because it will have an impact.
It will have an impact on states. I can only backfill so much.
But I think if you don't do that and if you give them the votes to pass this horrific budget, just to avoid a shutdown, we're only prolonging the pain. We're going to have to go through this and we're going to have to get it done.
So I would hope they make the Republicans pass this and own it. Have they done anything you liked? They've done a lot.
Have they done anything you thought, well, that's, that that's helpful that's a fair question because I don't want to be that guy it sounds like there's plenty you don't like yeah you're right man okay two things two things I'll mention this especially today, tonight I think I come down on Trump's side on daylight savings time so he started talking about that I'll give you that Someone over there too I'll give this, especially today, tonight. I think I come down on Trump's side on Daylight Savings Time.

So we started talking about that.

I'll give you that.

Someone over there, too.

I'll give you that one.

So I'm pretty fiscally conservative.

So here's the thing.

I heard Donald Trump talk about this, and I'm with him.

I think we should get rid of the penny.

I think it's outlived its thing.

So, yeah, the world's melding down around us, but Donald and I are solving the penny crisis.

So I am bipartisan.

It costs three point something cents to make. It doesn't make any sense.

Governor Tim Walz, we're going to talk about what we can learn from 2024 on the long,

long, long road to 2028 and we return on Today Explained. Fox Creative.
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Let's talk about 2024 for a minute here. Not because I want to dwell on the past, but you brought it up that you guys didn't win.
I want to better understand why not. You guys didn't swing a single swing state in your direction.
A lot of people were stunned by that. Were you surprised? Were you stunned? Yeah.
And I tell you this, that when you're in this business, you've got to be just steely eyed and cold hearted about where things are at. I spent my time in about seven swing states and felt like I was getting down to where folks were at.
Obviously not. And I think the soul searching that comes with that is, is why did our message about focusing on the middle class, expanded healthcare, Medicare hope for home healthcare work, environmental issues, why did that not work? Because it felt like to me that it was resonating and it did not.
And we didn't. And I think the team around me said this, we'll either win all seven or we'll lose all seven on this I think that they thought because it was these things are so nationalized now that it didn't matter I'm in Lancaster Pennsylvania talking to folks who are up in Erie um or you're in Waukesha in Wisconsin the national narrative over the top of that was going to drive it and it felt like we were there and I you know drinking my own koolid or whatever.
And that's on me. I said, I own that.
You've been doing soul searching. Is there one thing you wish you could take back or are there, you know, a half dozen or so? If there's one thing you could take back or do over, what do you think it would be? One thing I will not take back is when I said he was skipping like a dipshit.
I own it. I own that.
I'm not taking it back. I'm not taking that back.
Yeah, I think I would have taken back getting myself sucked into the conversation around what was happening in Springfield, Ohio. And it hit me on the heartstring on this.
And look, I know my weaknesses on this. I am a sucker.
If somebody's nice to me, I'll be nice to them type of thing. This one was, it so struck me like reprehensible that they were saying this about people that I was in like a three or four day debate making my case that this is not happening in Springfield, Ohio.
And every time I was saying that, we were talking about Springfield, Ohio and immigration. We weren't talking about other things that mattered to people.
And I went down that line trying to do, I think, morally the right thing. It turns out, how much have you heard about Springfield, Ohio, by the way, since since that election? What Donald Trump has mastered is he floods the zone to the point where you don't get to make your point.
And it doesn't matter if it was eating dogs and cats because it was immigration and people were uncomfortable with immigration. And so I would, I would do that differently.
I don't think Vice President Harris has been asked this, but I bet one thing she wished she could take back was that moment in that interview with The View where she said she wouldn't change a single thing the Biden administration was doing. I think that I'm sure the right loved that.
And I think a lot of people on the left were stunned by that. Now, she's not here, so I can't ask her.
But let me ask you, in that moment, had that question been posed to you? I mean, what were things that you think you could change that the Biden administration could have been doing better? Yeah, I think they should have been out there telling us that the inflation was real and this hurt. I think, you know, if I, in retrospect, which is 2020 hindsight type of thing, I think there should have been talk about sending, especially in the summer of 23, potentially sending, you know, stimulus checks to folks to try and counter some of it and making it clear that we were fighting for them.
Look, I think you were always going against this idea of change. They wanted, it was a change election.
It's happened globally. We needed to be the change.
And with that statement, more than anything, was a lot of great work was done by the administration. We do have the best economy, but that doesn't matter on a micro scale to someone if they can't afford their rent payment um but in fairness to the vice president had it been me in that moment i might have made that same thing might have said and i think that's we as democrats better do some soul searching about that why would we do that it's not like we're blindly loyal like you know the trump folks are but there was it's okay to criticize people you like in fact that's what you need you got to surround yourself with people who aren't yes people to tell you that you didn't do a very good job on this or you should change this.
We didn't do that. We didn't do it.
You know, you watch the RNC. You don't see the Bushes on stage.
You certainly don't see the Cheneys. But you watch the DNC and you still see the Obamas and the Clintons.
Do you think it's time that, I mean, I'm not going to say, you know, don't put Barack Obama on stage, don't put Michelle Obama on stage, but do you think it's time the Democratic Party refresh a little bit, put some fresh faces on there? Because here we are, and there's still, no one has any idea who's coming next. Well, I will say this.
The DNC was a good party on that. I thought it would do something better than them.
But let's, yes, yes. And I'm going to say, can this be our bar? Let's have our 2028 candidate have hair.
Ouch. You took yourself out of the race.
I'm so reflective on this. Look, I don't want to downplay that.
We just need to, whoever it is needs to win, and we need to understand that. But I don't deny this, this sense of the future.
Now, with that logic or whatever, look what the Republicans did. I said this.
We don't have term limits in Minnesota, and you do a four-year term. I've done two of those.
I could finish my term now and do four more terms as governor and be younger than Donald Trump.

So this idea that, well, the Republicans are young and fresh or whatever, that's not totally true either. But I think, I do think they engage people more.
They're more willing to give them that especially. And I think it feels like there's a bottleneck in elected office where it's, It's, the choice shouldn't be between running your parents for the senate or putting them into a home we should that should not be the choice and and we get a little bit or for governor fair enough no hair i get it so the trump administration the trump campaign seems to mostly run on you know the economy immigration but they get into office and it feels like they're mostly focused on draining the so-called swamp and wokeness.
Now, the wokeness they seem to be campaigning against, some of it started in your state with the murder of George Floyd. And it seems like they are betting that the majority of the American people, or at least their base, thinks that there was an overcorrection after the death of George Floyd, whatever happened with BLM and DEI.
What do you think about that? I think we have not done a good job of explaining it. And look, I don't know, you have a whole bunch of top military officers, the only two you fire are a woman and a black man.
I think we need to name that when it happens just to be clear need to name it But but we also need to tell the average person who I do not believe is racist But doesn't understand what we're saying and they have been conditioned by the other side that we are somehow passing over well-qualified White males to put these people in there. I think we as Democrats have a great example to rebut that.
Just look at the cabinet. Just look at this current cabinet.
If that's the best and brightest coming from the other side, seriously, that we should make that case about accountability. And so, yes, and look, I don't deny this.
Do I think we're losing elections and folks in the middle doing this? Yeah, I think it's costing votes, but I think, and I say this as a teacher, I always said this, if I would teach a lesson and then I would give a quiz on it and half the class would fail it, I didn't assume that half wasn't very smart. What I assumed is, is the method that I used to teach hit part of the class, but didn't hit another because of their learning styles or whatever it might be.
So I want them to learn this geography concept. I should teach it in three or four or five different ways to make sure I'm as broad as possible that they got the concept on that.
I think we teach DEI one way on this instead of being more strategic about how we talk about it. Because I don't believe my neighbors think it's a horrible thing to make sure everybody's got a shot to be able to succeed.
And that helps all of us. So, yeah, I think we're not doing a good job with that.
I think it is electorally hurting us. But more importantly, it's hurting real people in their real lives.
And it's throwing up those systemic barriers that have held us back for generations that I think we're getting at. There's some cognitive dissonance in this country right now because some people can't believe that we're canceling aid to African children, that we're deporting migrants the way we're doing it, that we're treating trans people the way we're treating them.
And then it seems like half the country's pleased as punch about it all, which is confusing. It feels like we're losing a sense of ourselves.
But you just spent months crisscrossing the country, shaking every hand in sight, and you seem like a glass half full kind of guy. What would you say to people who are losing faith in their American identity right now? Because it feels like you've still got faith.
Yeah, no, it's tough. I don't want to wisp past the graveyard.
But, you know, it's not a cliche. Every generation has to renew the democracy.
And, again, I will admit it. I would like to live in precedented times.
I'm sick of living in unprecedented times. Oh, no governors.
You know, I'm sick of that. I want normalcy.
I don't want to see these people. But there's also an opportunity and a privilege for us to reimagine.
And when I got asked the other day, they said, who's the leader of the Democratic Party? I'm like, hell if I know. I think it's the people who are out there.
I think it's the working class. Because we are not cultish.
It's pretty clear if you ask a Republican Republican who's leader of the Republican Party, because they can't say it fast enough, put on their red hat and dance to the tune. We're not going to dance to that tune, but we have a set of shared values.
And so I am optimistic. I do believe, and look, I do believe that arc of the moral universe bends, but I don't think it bends by itself.
I think you got to reach up and pull it some to get there this is a bit of a personal question do you miss wearing your glasses I ran this this I'm freakishly fast still for an old man I run 22 miles a week I can still run 8 30 miles pretty cash so I went running this morning I put in my contacts and I think it does make me look less old that I have to get criticized online my vanity. It seemed like you lost them right around the time you got the running mate gig.
And I wonder, you're still out here. You're talking to us right now at South by Southwest.
I saw you on, I think, Maddow. I saw you talking to Molly Jong-Fast, David Remnick.
Are you running for something right now? I am not. I have the potential, if I would be given the privilege, to run for a third term of governor of Minnesota.
But I hope those are Minnesotans. But no, but my goal is, and I don't, you know, the ticket, we just need to make sure that we have a winning candidate for 28, not because they're Democrats, but because they care about people and they adhere to our values.
Okay, Governor, I got one last thing. Because we're in Austin and someone told me that Austin isn't as weird as it used to be, and she was lamenting that, I wanted to ask you if you've noticed something that's happening on social media right now with the guy who did get the gig to be vice president.
Yes, my son sent it to me. What sent me a lot of them and at and i think trying to figure that out a lot of what a lot of my opponent's memes that were is that what you're talking about i brought a smattering of them for you today to pick your favorite we've got emo jd vance here uh let's see what else we got.
This is painful for me because my son's going to say,

yeah, all those, and he kicked your ass.

Well, it was the other guy.

We got Shaman J.D. Vance.

We got Hulk Hogan J.D. Vance.

What is it with this?

Kevin James J.D. Vance.

The guy from Shrek J.D. Vance.

Violet from Willy Wonka J.D. Vance.
Just a few more here. Minion J.D.
Vance. Violet from Willy Wonka, J.D.
Vance. Just a few more here.
Minion J.D. Vance.
What's behind this? I think it started around the time they won, maybe a little bit before they won. People just started having fun with his face.
This is like Sid's toy from Toy Story, mutilated J.D. Vance.
This is actually Vance. This might be the one silver lining I didn't win.

I can't imagine what they'd do with me.

I don't know.

I think it's a J.D. specific meme.

This is the Sphere J.D. Vance.

That's actually my favorite.

They get really weird.

Kim Jong-un J.D. Vance.

I'm sorry.

Marjorie Taylor Greene J.D. Vance.

That's what we got the crowd's favorite. Two more.
Melania with the hat J.D. Vance.
That's what we got the crowd's favorite.

Two more.

Melania with the Hat, J.D. Vance.

And then lastly, I couldn't find Tim Wall's J.D. Vance,

but I could unfortunately find Kamala Harris, J.D. Vance.

Any favorites, sir, before we go?

Thank you for that.

I'm not quite sure what to make of it,

but I'm gonna

i'm gonna take it that was good governor tim walls thank you all

thank you so much

Thank you. governor tim walls walls 2028.com kidding kidding i guess you can go to minnesota's website mn.gov we spoke at south by southwest on saturday haiti mawagdi travis large truck laura bullard amanda llewellyn andre christensdottir patrick boyd and miranda kennedy helped put the show together today and lots and lots of people from the greater vox media cinematic universe helped us out at south by southwest thanks a millie rock to all of them if you want more vox media at south by southwest our colleague kara swisher spoke to Senator Elizabeth Warren on stage shortly after our conversation with Tim Walls.
You can find that over at On with Kara Swisher.

For now, we here at Today Explained are off. Thank you.
and explore the observations, ambitions, and reasoning behind it all. In our first episode, I'll interview futurist and tech pioneer Jaron Lanier about the current state of AI, the potential it can unlock if we manage this technology well, and the implications for humanity if we don't.
And then in the second episode, I'll talk to Julia Longoria, host of Vox's Good Robot, about the beliefs and ideologies of the people building, funding, and influencing artificial intelligence, and how looking at this AI origin story can provide clues into how this technology will change the way we live and work. You can find our special series, AI and Us, right here on The Gray Area.
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