Whey too much protein

Speaker 1 We are going to extreme lengths to get more protein these days. The powders, the shakes, the cottage cheese and the oatmeal, the peanut butter and everything, and the chicken smoothie.

Speaker 2 I went to the store, got like some chicken breast, boiled it, blended it in a blender.

Speaker 2 It was like,

Speaker 2 added a splash of water, and then it smelled like, you know, I was just like, dude, I'm making soup here. This is so weird.

Speaker 2 So then I added like every berry, every frozen banana, like everything I could basically find in my freezer, and you know, to make it a little bit more tolerable.

Speaker 1 Have you tried the chicken smoothie?

Speaker 2 And then my wife tried it too, and she was like, oh, yeah, you could definitely feel the chicken on that.

Speaker 2 And so I had this, like, you know, venti-sized chicken smoothie that I had to drink all myself because I can't waste anything in my house.

Speaker 1 Coming up on Today Explained Protein Madness.

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Speaker 5 You're listening to Today Explained.

Speaker 1 I'm Noelle King. You and me and everyone we know is going to the gym lately, and so is writer Chris Skyomali.

Speaker 1 Chris publishes the health and wellness newsletter Heavies, and he recently wrote a big piece about protein for Grubstreet that started with his path to protein obsession.

Speaker 2 This actually started a few years ago here in New York. Once lockdown restrictions sort of eased up, the gyms were kind of the first thing to open.

Speaker 2 And so mostly out of boredom, I started going to my Muay Thai gym like five or six days a week and got really really fit

Speaker 2 around that same time i started listening to health podcasts like huberman lab

Speaker 6 when i heard this i thought there's no way this is true which was uh making sure that you get 30 or so grams of protein within 30 minutes of waking yeah and i was constantly getting all these messages that like you're not getting enough protein in your diet and so that sort of triggered my fall down this trapdoor towards the protein event horizon people think it's crazy that i've eaten 200 grams of protein for almost 20 straight years every single day.

Speaker 8 The biggest lie that you're telling yourself is that you can't hit your protein goals. Stop overcomplicating it.

Speaker 2 I blend chicken twice a day. What, what, what? To be an open pro bodybuilder.
Chug that baby down. Somebody get this mess of protein.

Speaker 1 I myself do listen to Huberman and

Speaker 1 I have gotten the message too. I think a lot more about protein than I ever thought I would think about.

Speaker 1 Same here. Me of 36 months ago would not recognize this person.
Tell me where protein mania begins. Is this a recent phenomenon?

Speaker 2 So it actually really starts with whey protein. And for that, you have to go back to right after World War II.

Speaker 9 The Japanese have accepted our terms fully. That is the word we have just received from the White House in Washington.

Speaker 9 And I didn't expect to hear a celebration here in our newsroom in New York, but you can hear one going on behind me.

Speaker 2 A lot of farming became really industrialized, and around that time we really saw dairy production really start to rash it up here in the United States.

Speaker 11 Milk is one of our most wholesome foods. Now, where are the milk cows and the dairy farms of the United States located? In an area commonly called the dairy belt.

Speaker 2 There was just like so much cheese that they were making, especially in Vermont and Wisconsin.

Speaker 11 Cheese, a more concentrated food, is more valuable valuable per pound than milk.

Speaker 2 When you make cheese, its liquid byproduct is whey, which has historically been treated as a refuse that was like either dumped in the rivers or fed to pigs and cattle.

Speaker 2 Once the whey is discarded, at least, it kind of has nowhere to go. And there was one cheese plant in 1942 that actually used to dump all its whey product into an old drinking well.

Speaker 2 The substance produced so much gas that at one point the well's cover blew off.

Speaker 2 Things really started to change in the 1970s when a couple of things started happening in tandem.

Speaker 2 The big one was there was kind of this swell of environmental legislation that came out that sort of just made dumping whey not the move.

Speaker 2 All these manufacturers had to find a use for this stuff that was essentially garbage. And

Speaker 2 meanwhile, there were technological breakthroughs in fields like microfiltration, which made it easier to transform the whey into a powder that you could actually mix with water and drink down.

Speaker 2 So that's kind of how we got to this point where you're able to drink whey protein as we know it today.

Speaker 2 And then the other thing that happened was in 1977

Speaker 2 there was this big documentary that came out called Pumping Iron.

Speaker 7 And now we come to the heavyweights,

Speaker 2 over 200 pounds, starring Arnold Schwartzeneger.

Speaker 10 The greatest feeling you can get in a gym or the most satisfying feeling you can get in the gym is the pump.

Speaker 2 It was kind of a mind-blowing thing at the time. Like this guy came out of nowhere and had biceps on top of his biceps.

Speaker 10 Blood is rushing into your muscles and that's what we call the pump. Your muscles get a really tight feeling like your skin is going to explode any minute.

Speaker 2 It kind of kicked off a real bodybuilding boom and from there people just really wanted protein and to look like the terminator.

Speaker 10 I'll be back.

Speaker 2 Whey protein, like that kind of set the model for a lot of different plant proteins.

Speaker 2 It was basically the same model where it was like, you know, we have all this excess trash and mush, like especially from the soybean oil industry.

Speaker 2 And they were like, hey, we have all this soy mush left over from, you know, extracting oil. What should we do with it?

Speaker 2 And then they figured out that you can really transform this stuff into soluble powders. And it's actually pretty nutrient dense too.

Speaker 2 But what's really funny about it is it's like this whole protein boom is like people just figured out that you can take existing garbage essentially and sell it to people.

Speaker 2 And so that's how we got to where we are today. But more recently, you know, they're sort of synthesizing all sorts of plants.
There's soy, there's pea, there's algae, there's hemp, there's rice.

Speaker 2 Yeah, all sorts of stuff that they are sort of mushing up and extracting protein from and turning it into powders that they can jam into all sorts of wacky snacks, which I've tasted a lot of during this journey.

Speaker 1 You also tasted a protein soda. Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. So

Speaker 2 when I came across this, the existence of this protein soda called Feisty,

Speaker 2 I was like, protein soda, that's so wild. But then I talked to the founder.

Speaker 5 Yeah, hi, my name's V.

Speaker 5 I'm the founder of Feisty.

Speaker 2 And she's a former designer at Louis Vuitton based in London. And she actually had her own interesting journey with protein.
She had like a gnarly knee injury not too long ago.

Speaker 2 And her PT was basically like, you should get into lifting.

Speaker 5 And I gave it a go. I've never been sporty in my whole life.

Speaker 5 I never had this feeling of like an endorphin's hit before and I was like wow this is so incredible and just like fell in love with like all things fitness.

Speaker 2 And from the lifting, she kind of fell in love with the sport and then started researching how to create her own drink that wasn't as heavy, not like a shake that you would have to guzzle down.

Speaker 2 And so she landed on this idea for a fizzy protein soda.

Speaker 5 I heard of this like hydrolyzed pea protein, which is like a pea protein which dissolves in water as clear. And I was like, why does no one put this in a soda? This is cool.

Speaker 1 You did talk to some plant protein scientists. What does that job entail?

Speaker 2 There's a lot of research being done right now in like genetically modifying certain plants, say pea, or, you know, even potatoes. So protein is really tricky.

Speaker 2 And I'm by no means an expert in like how all that stuff sort of holds together.

Speaker 12 So my name's David Julian McClemons and I'm a distinguished professor in the Department of Food Science at the University of Massachusetts and I do a lot of work on protein fortification of plant-based foods.

Speaker 1 First of all, ridiculous that that exists. You love it.

Speaker 12 So we're trying to make plant-based alternatives.

Speaker 12 The most common way is you just basically take the plant, you grind it up into a powder, then you put it in water and then you make it very alkaline and that causes the proteins to dissolve and then you collect them and then you change the pH again and they all come out of solution and you get this big curd that you can take and dry and use as a protein isolate.

Speaker 12 So we've made sort of plant-based scallops.

Speaker 7 I

Speaker 2 admittedly like I get a little bit squeamish around like baked meats like that.

Speaker 12 Plant-based chicken and plant-based eggs that are fortified with proteins and other healthy ingredients. So things like potatoes or peas or soybeans or nettles.

Speaker 2 There's no way I should be eating this burger that is designed to taste like a cow, but isn't a cow. I'm kind of like, just be yourself, burger.

Speaker 1 So there's two parallel tracks here. And one is we are able to just make more kinds of proteins and put them into more types of foods.
Exactly. And then sell them to people.

Speaker 1 And the other is people want them, right? People are also buying the stuff. What came first? The chicken or the egg?

Speaker 1 Or is this just a nice confluence of what the customer wants, the industry is prepared now to provide?

Speaker 2 In my reporting, I sort of found that, you know, of all the macronutrients, the big three are fat, carbohydrates, and protein.

Speaker 2 Protein's kind of the only one that's never really been demonized by marketers and like pop scientists and Atkins and like all that stuff. It's like you think of carbohydrates.

Speaker 2 It was like that was a verboten at one point.

Speaker 13 It's a great diet debate, low carb or low fat.

Speaker 14 You probably have had some friends or family members or yourself trying the no carb or low carb diets.

Speaker 2 Fat, definitely a verbotin at one point. The analogy I like to use is protein is kind of like the Dolly part in a macronutrients.

Speaker 2 Like we can all agree that she's pretty great regardless of your identity or like political affiliation.

Speaker 13 My hopes for the new year is a little more kindness, a little more love.

Speaker 1 So speaking of Dolly, and also speaking of Arnold Schwarzenegger,

Speaker 1 I love Arnold, but...

Speaker 1 As like a woman, I don't aspire to look like Arnold.

Speaker 1 But the algorithm has found me anyway. Like I go on Instagram and the ladies are serving me protein.

Speaker 13 Most women are not eating enough protein.

Speaker 15 Oh my God, you're looking for a high-protein breakfast option that takes less than 10 minutes to make and it's 65 grams of protein. Yeah, buddy.
I know. That's what you wanted.
And I'm a giver.

Speaker 2 I'm a lover.

Speaker 1 How did we go from this is kind of male-dominated muscles on muscles on muscles to

Speaker 1 a lot of female health influencers are evangelizing it also. When does that turn happen?

Speaker 2 It has to do with the sort of normalizing of fitness culture, which you have also fallen into in the past couple of months.

Speaker 1 I work out all the time. I can bet you.

Speaker 2 And it's addicting, right?

Speaker 2 And I think part of it is like, you know, post-pandemic, we were just so concerned about our mortality and watching death sort of surround us in a real way that a lot of people decided to get healthy kind of at the same time.

Speaker 2 But also, you know, your point about influencers is really interesting. One of the big ones is Dr.
Gabrielle Lyon. She's a part of the sort of Huberman cinematic universe.

Speaker 13 There is not one macronutrient more important

Speaker 13 to an aging individual than protein.

Speaker 2 Really compelling figure in her mid-50s, I think, and she looks like she could deadlift like a Miata if she needed to. But

Speaker 2 she's argued that women, especially as they enter menopause, need to be lifting weights and eating way more protein to stay healthy. Protein for dummies, source, meat, which include pork, beef, lamb.

Speaker 2 She's so turbo, but I think she's onto something. And I think that's really like hitting a note with a lot of people across all stripes.

Speaker 1 The other big cultural moment that we're in is the moment of Ozempic and Munjaro and other GLP-1s. Those also affect how much protein we want or need.

Speaker 2 You know, retailers like Walmart, especially, are like sort of already stocking their shelves with foods that are a little bit more nutrient-dense and high in protein.

Speaker 16 Nestle just announced a new frozen food brand that it says is intended to be a companion for GLP-1 weight loss medication users and consumers focused on weight management.

Speaker 17 The makers of Kit Kat are coming out with some food items that you'll be able to find on your local grocery shelves soon. And these foods will be geared towards you and me, users of GLP-1 medications.

Speaker 17 Let's take a look at what they are.

Speaker 2 Mostly because these kind of drugs are so popular right now and they really do limit the amount of food you can eat.

Speaker 2 So if you can't eat as much food, the thinking goes that you need stuff that's just packed with more nutrients in order to feel okay and good and healthy.

Speaker 2 So that's it's kind of really shaping the industry in a very real way right now.

Speaker 5 What I eat in a day on Miss Ozempi.

Speaker 15 I always start my day with some Greek yogurt.

Speaker 14 Shobani is my favorite.

Speaker 15 And then today is the day that we take our Ozen Pic shot so you already know what that means. We need to get in a good high-protein meal before doing so.

Speaker 8 Let's make a protein coffee while I talk about the importance of protein law on a GLP-1 medication.

Speaker 2 I was like shopping for breakfast cereals for my three-year-old.

Speaker 2 Just like looking around and I noticed this svelte new box of Wheaties protein, which like advertised 20 something grams grams of protein on the cover.

Speaker 2 There was no old Wheaties. Like this, it had been replaced seemingly overnight by this very, you know, buff new insurgent, I guess.

Speaker 2 And so I was kind of like, I was like, huh.

Speaker 2 And so, in the course of this, I hit up General Mills, which, you know, owns this big portfolio of food products and Wheaties, especially, and asked if I could come out and check out what they're doing over there.

Speaker 2 And weirdly enough, they said yes.

Speaker 1 coming up chris goes behind the veil at general mills

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Speaker 1 Today Explained is back with me, Noelle from Work, and Chris Gaiomali.

Speaker 1 Now, as you've skittered around the aisles of your local grocery store, you have likely wondered at some point, how are they getting the protein into all this stuff?

Speaker 1 Chris had the same thought, and then he scored an invitation.

Speaker 2 So last November, I landed in Minneapolis and took an Uber out to General Mills' headquarters. And it's this beautiful, picturesque campus just outside of Minneapolis.

Speaker 2 They have like this sculpture sculpture garden outside. It's just this beautiful campus with duck ponds and there was like foliage everywhere.

Speaker 2 And then I'm inside this building where they make all these snack products.

Speaker 2 General Mills, they began looking into, you know, jamming protein into a lot of their products maybe a little over 10 years ago.

Speaker 2 They had this Nature Valley bar that they had like jammed a little bit more protein in. And then once they started selling it, they realized they could make a lot of money off of this stuff.

Speaker 2 I think it did like $100 million in its first year or something like that. So, they were like, Okay, maybe there's other products we can put protein into that would make us a ton of money.

Speaker 2 And so, Wheaties being, you know, their flagship sort of cereal product that, like, you know, has Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan and Serena Williams and all those people on the cover.

Speaker 2 Better eat your Wheaties.

Speaker 6 I better eat my Wheaties.

Speaker 2 They realized Weedies would be a good test for this stuff. And so they went out to their roster of like fitness enthusiasts.

Speaker 2 And the information they were hearing back was, you know, a Wheaties protein product would ideally have at least 15 grams of protein preserving, which is kind of a lot, you know?

Speaker 2 The challenge for them was preserving the fidelity of the flake because Wheaties eaters are surprisingly hardcore about what a Wheaties should taste like and how hard it should be, like how crunchy it should be.

Speaker 2 So it was actually wheat germ and soy protein isolate that they had to combine and make it somehow taste like the old version of Wheaties.

Speaker 2 And they went through 40 different iterations over it over a multi-year RD period.

Speaker 2 And it was kind of funny because they rolled out all these different versions over the years in little glass containers, kind of like little, I don't know, like Jurassic Park embryos or something.

Speaker 2 And I asked them to take a picture of it. And then they were just like, oh no, we can't do that.
Like it was like Illuminati levels of secrecy for all these cereal shapes.

Speaker 1 Speaking of Jurassic Park, I was trying to picture how do you get protein into food? Because it's it's not just weedies. It's also Cheerios.

Speaker 1 It's also, like you said, it's granola bars, it's everything. And all I can imagine is a person with like a big needle.

Speaker 1 Somehow the needle has liquid protein. They're just like plunging the needle into a weedy flake.
I'm guessing no, but how does it work? Like, how do they get the protein into it?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it isn't too far off from Jurassic Park, as I understand it. You're altering the DNA of whatever the food is on like a very granular level.

Speaker 2 You know, it's like they'll take the wheat germ that they were using for wheaties, for example, put in some protein, and then they have like all these calculations about like how much liquid to use.

Speaker 2 And they're just calibrating that until they get something that sort of resembles the traditional product, but is maybe just a little bit off.

Speaker 2 And then on top of that, they'll try to mask it with, you know, nut clusters and all this other stuff to sort of like take your eye off the ball a little bit that this isn't the old one you're eating, but it's a little bit different, but it can't be too different.

Speaker 2 And I think that's kind of the trick towards all these new protein food products, honestly.

Speaker 1 You know, you're pointing at something here. Listeners will know I am obsessed with ultra-processed foods and what they may be doing to us.

Speaker 1 I drank a protein shake the other day and I was like, oh my God, none of this is stuff that I could find in my own kitchen. And so a thing I wonder is, are we just eating junk food?

Speaker 1 Is all the high protein stuff crap?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, where I sort of landed, and this flip-flops every day. If you ask me the same question tomorrow, I might have a different answer for you.

Speaker 2 But it's it's still junk, but it's kind of a lesser evil situation to my mind.

Speaker 2 A lot of the researchers I talked to, there was this one guy named Alan Aragon, who's sort of like been at the forefront of a lot of protein and fitness research over these past couple decades.

Speaker 2 He made the point that really kind of shocked me that this stuff is actually really useful for people who are maybe a little bit older and they're dealing with age-related muscle loss.

Speaker 2 And it's just so much easier for them to eat a bowl of cereal versus like a huge sirloin steak steak that a carnivore diet influencer would like make for themselves and eat off a cutting board or something like that.

Speaker 2 It's maybe not ideal. Maybe we should be getting our protein from whole sources, like you know, fish and like grass-fed meat and tofu and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 But you know, we don't live in a sort of ideal world. We're always on the move and like need convenience when we can.

Speaker 2 So I'll occasionally indulge in like a protein thing that tastes like a Pop-Tart and feel not too bad about it if I can help it.

Speaker 1 There's a thing that happens. It has certainly happened to me, probably most people, where you realize that like you're not getting enough calcium, right? Or enough iron.

Speaker 1 And then suddenly you are slamming iron tablets and spinach and steak. And then you read something that's like, oh, you should only actually be getting such and such milligrams every day.

Speaker 1 We are, as a culture, really obsessed with protein right now. Has anyone dug into whether we are getting too much?

Speaker 2 So in terms of how much protein a person might need, the RDA works out to basically 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. That's a lot of math.

Speaker 2 But more recent research suggests that it should be probably closer to 1.6, which is double what the old RDA was. Most people probably aren't getting enough, especially if you work out.

Speaker 2 And, you know, protein is a source of our cellular, like healing and all that stuff. So yeah, we're probably all not eating enough, honestly.

Speaker 1 We've learned to be suspicious of big food companies, right? There are a lot of problems with the American diet, and we're all aware of it.

Speaker 1 There are a lot of chronic conditions that stem from the American diet.

Speaker 1 When you think about what the story of protein and its rise and then continued rise tells us about ourselves, what do you think is the story behind the story here?

Speaker 2 I feel like we're just getting so much smarter about nutrition now.

Speaker 2 I always think back to my youth youth when the, you know, the food pyramid and the bottom of it was like your foundation of a healthy diet is like six to 11 daily breads or something.

Speaker 2 That's so many carbs, that's so much bread.

Speaker 2 It's so weird because some of this stuff gets really rigid really fast, but then research is also moving fast.

Speaker 2 And so it's kind of weird because you you have to balance some conspiratorial like thinking with all these like, you know, podcasters and people, randos on tock who are making like really strong health recommendations not founded in any sort of like real science with sort of what sounds about right and so it's kind of like a personal calculation is where i've kind of landed on it you know if like eating a little bit more protein helps you feel good um then by all means do it i've personally sort of started eating double the amount that i was eating prior to reporting this story then i feel pretty good and uh not too terrible with myself so that's where i've landed with all of that.

Speaker 1 And your muscles got bigger.

Speaker 2 Yeah, my muscles are so brolic right now, dude. There you go.
There you go.

Speaker 1 That is it. That is why we do it.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 All right. Chris Gaiomali, check him out at Heavies on Substack.
Gabrielle Berbay produced today's show. Amina El Sadi edited.
Matthew Billy and Andrea Kristen's daughter engineered.

Speaker 1 And Laura Bullard checks the facts. Kadi Mwagdi, Amanda Llewellyn, Devin Schwartz, Victoria Chamberlain, Travis Larchuk, Miles Bryan, and Avishai Artsy produced today Explained.

Speaker 1 Miranda Kennedy is our EP, and Jolie Myers is our deputy EP. Sean Ramas firm is taking an airplane to South by Southwest this week to ask Minnesota Governor Tim Walls about all those JD Vance memes.

Speaker 1 If you're in Austin, stop by. The Vox Media podcast stage is presented by Smartsheet.

Speaker 1 And this Sunday, right here in this feed, you're going to find our new weekend show, Explain It to Me, hosted by John Gullin Hill. JQ, what's the show about on Sunday?

Speaker 18 Hello. Okay, so this week on the show, we're going to go on a journey to help a man in the love department.
You know, Noel, we've talked about this. Dating is changing and it's changing very quickly.

Speaker 18 A lot of guys feel like they've been left behind. So I talked to a listener who told me he's never tried to approach a woman in person because he's worried about coming off creepy.

Speaker 2 Poor guy.

Speaker 18 Yeah, it's rough out here. I felt for him.

Speaker 18 But we hit a men's group at a bar in Austin, Texas, and and found some inspiration from a bunch of guys that get together to help each other with stuff like this.

Speaker 18 You can hear that show on Sunday morning in the Today Explained feed.

Speaker 1 And people can call you if they have a question they want you to answer. What's the number?

Speaker 18 1-800-618-8545.

Speaker 1 Thanks, JQ. I'm Noelle King.
It's Today Explained. Today Explained is distributed by WNYC, and the show is a part of Fox.

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