Why does dating suck for guys?

Speaker 1 Are women aware of the unique dynamics or challenges that men are facing that might actually affect their perception of desirability or capability?

Speaker 2 Hey y'all, I'm John Glynn Hill and this is Explain It to Me, your hotline for the questions that matter most to you.

Speaker 2 We recently got a call from Rohan.

Speaker 3 Hello.

Speaker 2 He wants to know why people in their 20s and 30s are dating less.

Speaker 1 Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone. And one of the challenges that I had sort of noticed is that men are kind of experiencing a harder time dating than women.

Speaker 2 He's asking because he's been having his own trouble on the dating scene. The state of dating, particularly for men, has been everywhere.

Speaker 4 Why are men in such crisis? I mean, only 40% go to college, and women with degrees don't marry men who don't have degrees.

Speaker 6 66%

Speaker 5 of young men between the ages of 18 and 29 are currently single, but only 34% of young women in the same age bracket are single.

Speaker 2 Producer Hadi Milwagdi knows about them firsthand.

Speaker 2 Okay, Hadi, you were pretty excited about taking this question from Rohan. Why? was that?

Speaker 8 Well, I mean, JQ, there are a few things. For starters, I'm a single guy in his mid-30s, and landing a date has been harder than ever.
You swipe, you send roses, you sneak into the DMs.

Speaker 8 It's exhausting. You know, these dating apps really suck.
And on top of all of that, I've heard so often that women have decided to quit dating. They've given up on men.

Speaker 8 And I guess who can blame them?

Speaker 8 But our guy on this call, Rohan, I honestly had no idea if he is one of those dudes who's like uber worried about birth rates or if he was simply struggling to get a date.

Speaker 8 And here's what he told me when I gave him a call.

Speaker 1 One thing that I think is not really kind of discussed enough is that there are a lot of terminology that is being thrown around for like this kind of popular rhetoric of like become a high value individual.

Speaker 1 And so it's interesting now that like now there are metrics of kind of like what it means to be a high value or low value in terms of datability if you're interested in someone what is the way to pursue someone and how do i at least you know demonstrate a bit of interest in a way that is obviously consensual but you know ideally reciprocal without having to feel like i'm either throwing a lot of money or i'm wasting my time

Speaker 1 uh and yeah i don't know i i was speaking with someone someone said well you know everybody's tired because nobody wants to get played so as you can tell, Rohan has spent a lot of time thinking about dating.

Speaker 8 And that's why I wanted you to give him a call, JQ, to help him on his journey.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And you piqued my interest. I wanted to hear more about how it's going for Rohan.

Speaker 1 Dating is obviously a challenging experience for everyone. But some of those challenges are maybe nuanced or they're asymmetrical.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm curious. Do you and your friends ever talk about this? Like, what kind of conversations do you guys have with each other about this?

Speaker 1 Yes, we've talked a lot about this. You know, I have some

Speaker 1 great male friends.

Speaker 1 I also have a younger brother. And I think one of the biggest things that we found is that kind of some of the means or mediums for meeting people are

Speaker 1 now

Speaker 1 very

Speaker 1 inaccessible.

Speaker 1 So monetization of dating apps is not just a nuisance, it actually can be financially exclusive.

Speaker 1 For example, like if you're trying to meet as many potential prospects, you need to keep paying for a subscription.

Speaker 1 So that is one thing that's frustrating. Another thing is that we live in a society that obviously has certain demographic patterns.

Speaker 1 And one of those patterns is that Asian men tend to be sort of emasculated.

Speaker 1 And I think black women tend to be unfortunately deemed as less desirable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I definitely get what you mean. Like, you know, I've seen my fair share of colorism in dating, especially in my early 20s.

Speaker 2 It sounds like you use dating apps. Do you mind telling me which ones you're on?

Speaker 1 Yes, I'm on Hinge and Bumble and Coffee Meets Bagel.

Speaker 2 Ooh, okay.

Speaker 2 I am well versed in all three of these apps.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 walk me through your approach. So like, say you're on an app, you see a a woman you want to match with, like what's the next step?

Speaker 1 So, you know, I'm interested in the profile and I'll review it and I'll swipe and then there's a match. And what I've realized is that it's very easy to actually ghost.

Speaker 1 I remember I was trying to chatting with someone. I really liked, you know, her profile and I was trying to kind of flirt digitally, you know, try to.
try to build a little bit of banter.

Speaker 1 And so we had set a video date and I had been very explicit about like ensuring she was comfortable with it and then I actually extended a Google Calendar invite and she marked yes she confirmed on the invite so I was going in you know with a lot of confidence that this is going to happen

Speaker 1 and then when I joined she didn't show up oh and so I had texted her saying, hey, look, just want to check if, you know, I'm in this lobby. And she said, I'll be there in a few minutes.

Speaker 1 And she didn't show up. And I waited, you know, basically about an hour.
And then I realized that she was ghosting me.

Speaker 9 I'm sorry, Rohan. That's all right.

Speaker 2 That sucks. That is like not okay.
And that sucks.

Speaker 1 I appreciate that.

Speaker 1 I think that's maybe kind of just a function of the way that dating is, that some of these dating mediums, when they're off screens, that it's very easy to kind of escape accountability.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like, it's like people forget, no, you're talking to another person on the end of that phone.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And also like, if there is a concern, if you don't share it, I can't address it.

Speaker 1 Like either you show it or you tell me about it so that I can engage in that. But without being willing to

Speaker 1 open up, without being willing to give that chance or have that faith, it's very difficult to actually demonstrate that.

Speaker 2 So that's kind of like the landscape of stuff online. I'm curious, do you ever try to approach women like IRL?

Speaker 1 I do not, no.

Speaker 8 Ooh, why not?

Speaker 1 Quite candidly, I've kind of bought into, I think, a lot of the kind of contemporary rhetoric that it's not worth trying to

Speaker 1 make someone uncomfortable in a public space.

Speaker 1 Now, I recognize it's a public space, but I do think there is a little bit of discomfort as, you know, the fear of being kind of typecast is like, okay, that's a creepy or uncomfortable or weird.

Speaker 1 you know, approach or weird person. So I think there is a little bit of that.
I don't see it or hear it happening so much myself.

Speaker 1 I would feel more comfortable with approaching, you know, and expressing a bit of interest publicly, IRL,

Speaker 1 if that were happening more visibly and audibly to me in public spaces. So it's understanding clarity, like, okay, are you just chatting for the sake of chatting?

Speaker 1 Or is there something like there's an interest?

Speaker 1 I know that directness or bluntness can maybe be considered as a sort of overly forward, but I think, you know, the reality is that forwardness connotes clarity.

Speaker 1 And sometimes that clarity is, you know, offers a lot more definition than something else.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's this idea of like, okay, no one wants to be creepy.
No one wants to be cringe, but people do want to know where they stand.

Speaker 2 But you kind of have to be forward in that way and risk the, oh, does someone think I'm creepy? Does someone think I'm cringe to get that clarity?

Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, this is something that

Speaker 1 maybe maybe that there are training programs for or there's like practical experience.

Speaker 1 I remember like kind of receiving these ads about dating coaches and how that's like a way for some folks to sort of practice skills.

Speaker 2 If you could come away with like something

Speaker 2 after listening to the episode, what would you want it to be? Like, I have marching orders or I feel good about what I've learned.

Speaker 1 You know, I actually would not say it's so much guidance.

Speaker 1 If I could have one request, it would actually be, you know, people who can actually go through like role play exercises and really just showcase, like, this is what a positive expression of interest, one that is, say, you know, an IRL approach

Speaker 1 that is

Speaker 1 comfortable and not, you know, creepy, not weird, not uncomfortable. Or this is a way to kind of express vulnerability in a setting without violating the norms.

Speaker 2 Okay, so we're gonna get Rohan some dating help. And look, I'm no man expert.
So, Hadi, our producer who you met earlier,

Speaker 2 he paid a visit to a men's relationship group at a bar in Austin to figure out how we can be Rohan's proverbial wingman. These guys are a bit older and they had some sage words of advice.

Speaker 6 It's really easy to look at a group of people our age that are talking about the stuff we talk about and go, these guys are so broken.

Speaker 11 You got to get kicked in the teeth a bunch of times before you realize, was saying, here's what it is. And so, I would encourage the young guys,

Speaker 5 find

Speaker 6 a men's group, even if it's a group of older guys,

Speaker 11 and go learn from them because they've all made mistakes that you don't need to make. You can learn from them.

Speaker 2 That's coming up. We're going to figure out how to help guys get dates.
Stay tuned.

Speaker 2 Oh man, what am I even doing?

Speaker 2 A match.

Speaker 2 It's explain it to me. I'm John Glenn Hill.
Before the break, we heard from a caller who's struggling in the romance department.

Speaker 2 And when it comes to all matters of the heart, there's one go-to person here at Vox, senior reporter Allie Volby.

Speaker 2 Okay, Allie, is Rohan an outlier or do his struggles with dating sound familiar to you?

Speaker 10 I don't think he's an outlier at all.

Speaker 10 Just anecdotally, like so many of the single people I know personally are having a hard time with dating. Like it just seems like nobody is having a fun time.

Speaker 12 It's hard to find the girl that you really want to be with the rest of your life. A lot of guys have very high standards for what they're looking for.

Speaker 2 You looking for something serious. You're looking for a person that can match your energy.
And sometimes that means you're going to be single longer than you would like.

Speaker 10 And like we're generally socializing less than like even 10, 20 years ago. So it makes it hard to just meet people.

Speaker 13 Like playing on your phone when you should be listening to her, but everything she's saying is just going in one ear and out the other because you'd rather be on your phone.

Speaker 10 We're also living in a way that doesn't necessarily promote connection. Like we stare at our phones when we're on public transportation or while we're waiting in line for coffee.
We use self-checkout.

Speaker 10 We order food like via apps and touch screens. Like we wear AirPods in any interstitial moment.

Speaker 2 When we're in the car, you're on the phone. When we're at the table, you're on the phone.
When we're in bed, you're on the phone.

Speaker 10 So it just kind of makes it hard to like naturally or quote unquote like naturally meet people. But like for men in particular, this really seems to be a problem.

Speaker 10 According to a 2022 Pew Research Center survey, 63% of men under 30 said they were single compared to only 34% of women in the same age bracket. Single men were likely to be looking for love.

Speaker 10 Like half of them in that same survey said they reported looking for a committed relationship and/or casual dates, while only 35% of single women said the same.

Speaker 10 So, you know, there's a desire there, and there's a lot of men looking for this, but they're having trouble.

Speaker 2 We all know that TikTok, where it's like, you know, if you found somebody on apps, you got the last chopper out of Nom. But it seems like guys specifically are having issues.
Why is that happening?

Speaker 10 Yeah. I mean, to speak to the caller's point about like who are creating these rules.

Speaker 1 Like, what are the voices that are determining desirability or datability? Should we be really critiquing or questioning what constitutes desirability or datability?

Speaker 10 I'm doing a follow-up story about dating standards and expectations specifically.

Speaker 10 And, you know, like going back to the 70s, 80s, you know, if you would poll women about like what they were looking for in men, they're often looking for these like provider type qualities of their high earner, they're going to protect, they're going to support.

Speaker 10 And men just as consistently are like, I just want somebody hot.

Speaker 14 Well, there's a girl at school. She's hot.
She's super smart.

Speaker 9 Huh?

Speaker 8 Funny and cool. Hot.

Speaker 14 Yes, she's hot. Super hot.
Nice.

Speaker 10 And these expectations have persisted like from the 80s until, you know, recently. Like these things have not really changed very much.

Speaker 10 A recent YouGov poll found that men prioritize sex, romance, and physical attraction more than women, while women emphasize empathy, monogamy, and independence.

Speaker 2 But it sounds like the standards have also changed. What's changed and why have they changed?

Speaker 10 This is, I think, a good consequence of the Me Too movement, I think, is that there's been like a wider discussion about like what behavior women would consider predatory or inappropriate.

Speaker 10 So, I think there's more of an understanding that, like, you shouldn't be creepy and harass women, which is great. Like, that is wonderful.

Speaker 10 And Richard Reeves, the expert I talked to, he's the president of the American Institute for Boys and Men.

Speaker 10 And he wrote a book also called Of Boys and Men, Why the Modern Male is Struggling, Why It Matters, and What to Do About It.

Speaker 10 He told me that the men that he works with like generally understand this, like, don't be a creep, but that's getting in the way of them dating, you know, like they're so in their heads about it.

Speaker 10 Like they don't want to come off as like a quote-unquote bad guy that they're just sort of opting out of it altogether.

Speaker 15 Well, I think a lot of young women actually, one of the things they feel about a lot of young men is that they're a bit passive.

Speaker 15 It's almost like a lot of those men almost don't feel they have permission to be assertive.

Speaker 10 Something else I've been thinking about a lot is More people are going to therapy. That is a good thing.

Speaker 10 But out of that has come like the emergence of therapy speak, where people are misusing terms that are vaguely like pop psychology, that like not even a therapist would use.

Speaker 10 You know, if anyone has what you deem like a quote-unquote red flag, it's a no-go.

Speaker 10 And so, people are writing people off based on some of these red flags, but I think everybody is going to have something that might give you the quote-unquote ick, or, you know, might not be your dream standard.

Speaker 10 And we are more likely to write them off immediately because of that.

Speaker 10 You gotta meet people in person. I think, like, again, like apps are fine, but I think it's a tool.
You gotta go to places where there are people and you're doing an activity that, like, you like.

Speaker 10 So, like, you shouldn't go to like run club if you hate running and expect to meet somebody, you know.

Speaker 10 Like, maybe you do, like, like a wine tasting club or like you go to, you take some pottery classes or comedy classes, whatever.

Speaker 10 Go somewhere where there's going to be people that, like, you can see week after week. Like if you're seeing them week after week after week, like they kind of get a sense of who you are.

Speaker 10 And I think we just like

Speaker 10 can't assume the worst of people. Like I feel like trust is really low right now.
Again, another

Speaker 10 young male reader reached out to me. Like he's 20, 21 and he's just starting to date.
And he just feels like, like, how do I get people to trust me? How do I get, how do I trust other people?

Speaker 10 And I get it, it's really, really hard. But I think we have to just like assume that people want what we want.

Speaker 10 Like, we just have to have a little bit of like humanity and flexibility for people and like to understand, like, yes, if I'm an inherently like valued but imperfect person, so is this other person.

Speaker 2 Explain it to me. We'll be back in a minute.

Speaker 14 Okay, be cool. Be yourself.
It's just a date.

Speaker 2 This is Explain It to Me. I'm John Glenn Hill.
And this is producer Hadi Mawagdi.

Speaker 8 Hi again.

Speaker 2 Okay, Hadi.

Speaker 2 Our caller Rohan told us he's not necessarily looking for dating advice, but he does want support, like a role-playing public service-y kind of thing to help him learn how to approach women in real life and online.

Speaker 2 Were you able to find that for him?

Speaker 8 Well, I did not find exactly what Rohan was looking for. I'm not even sure that it exists.

Speaker 8 But as I took this journey to figure out why young men are bad at dating, I learned that men in their 20s and 30s are actually struggling with all of their relationships.

Speaker 8 Friendships, familial, and definitely romantic. But eventually I came across a men's organization called Everyman, a for-profit company that brings men together to talk about their feelings.

Speaker 8 And after that, I found a non-profit group called the Mankind Project.

Speaker 8 They put on these extensive weekend events with physical and psychological elements, all focused on helping men discover who they want to be in the world. And they also host men's groups.

Speaker 8 And after a bit of digging, I came up with a guy who does similar work in the city I live in, Austin, Texas. He calls himself the happy man coach, and his name is Charlie McKeever.

Speaker 3 Call me a dating coach, but I would call myself a confidence coach. And that's important for dating.
It's important for relationships and it's important for life.

Speaker 3 So I help men own themselves, to get to know who they are and to reclaim themselves in their life.

Speaker 8 So Charlie works one-on-one with men. He organizes retreats as well.
And this year he's taking some men to Spain. But he also hosts weekly meetups.

Speaker 8 And he invited me to one at a bar called the Water Tank. It was a busy evening at the bar.
There was a game of trivia happening.

Speaker 8 Charlie had found a tucked away spot at the water tank, and honestly, I was pretty blown away by how enlightened my fellow middle-aged dudes are. Take Rob, for example.

Speaker 8 Throughout the night, he offered up bits and pieces of his personal story, divorce, loneliness, that sort of stuff.

Speaker 8 And then he'd bring up research that says men should learn to be vulnerable with one another.

Speaker 7 And once you decide to do that,

Speaker 7 it's very empowering to see that other guys are willing to open up as well.

Speaker 6 You know, it's not a big cry fest all the time,

Speaker 7 but it's just saying, man, I see you and I hear you. And once you feel that way,

Speaker 7 it's just a really settled, grounded place to be.

Speaker 8 They were also speculating on why so many young men are struggling right now.

Speaker 8 This one guy, Corey, for example, he looked a little bit like a middle school football coach I had one time, stocky, you know, wearing a University of Texas polo and baseball cap while also sipping on a cocktail.

Speaker 8 Anyways, Corey, he thinks the loss of organized religion means men don't know where to get their relationships modeled for them.

Speaker 11 They're struggling because, you know, they learning from TV or they're learning from a video game, but they're not learning from mom and dad. They're not learning from seeing relationships actually

Speaker 11 modeled. They don't have that big brother that's taking them out and going, oh, here's what you do next.
Here's this.

Speaker 6 Because big brother's in the room playing video games and eating pieces just like they are.

Speaker 2 Okay, so these are thoughtful men. They've struggled with relationships.
They've learned a lot. And now they have the water tank in Austin.
Thanks for taking us there, Hadi.

Speaker 2 Okay, let's go to Charlie, who runs the group.

Speaker 3 In general, men are very

Speaker 3 feeling. I'm a big fan of Alison Armstrong's research.
And in it, she says that a man doesn't want to do something that he doesn't think he has a high probability of success for.

Speaker 3 So at some point, he has to learn that he needs to be

Speaker 3 himself and be who he enjoys being in his life and then do things from that place, right? Doing it as a happy, whole,

Speaker 3 contented

Speaker 3 person.

Speaker 3 And then... And then he'll have the experiences that he has in life.

Speaker 3 He'll see things from from a perspective of abundance and not from a place of scarcity and lack, which is where we come from when we think that we need somebody. We need a person's approval.

Speaker 3 We need their acceptance. We need that job, that promotion, that bank account, that house in order to be okay.
And if we can only be okay if, then we're really in a very precarious place.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
This is very good advice, but I understand how it can elicit eye rolls from men who are struggling with dating.

Speaker 2 You You know, I've heard my fair share of like, oh, you need to work out of yourself. Love comes within, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And I've like, I've been, listen, I've been in the trenches.

Speaker 2 I have been on those apps. It is rough out here.
Like, what do you say to men who are like, okay, that's fine. But like,

Speaker 2 I'm still not getting dates. I still haven't found my person.
Like, okay, I love me. Now what?

Speaker 3 That's legit. Right.
That's totally legit. And there would have been a time that I would have eye rolled too.
I'd have been like,

Speaker 3 it doesn't come down to woo-woo, it doesn't come down to magic, right? There's no like

Speaker 3 secret. It's it's really very logical that

Speaker 3 when

Speaker 3 I'm dependent on something outside of me,

Speaker 3 then I'm going to feel

Speaker 3 very powerless. And that's just not a great place to be.
It's not a great place to live. So now.

Speaker 3 The thing that we that I also hear from men a lot is they hear the word intimacy.

Speaker 2 Oh, they okay.

Speaker 3 Surprise.

Speaker 9 I'm like,

Speaker 3 they talk about intimacy. They talk about connection.

Speaker 3 The thing that we don't know, that we don't realize, right, is that intimacy is not just sex, right?

Speaker 3 But at the end of the day, what we really want, and this is the part that he's kind of confused about, is that we really want to be seen. We really want to be heard.
We really want to be understood.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 the interesting thing about intimacy and

Speaker 3 being seen and being heard, being understood,

Speaker 3 is that if we're in this place where we're protecting ourselves, where we're

Speaker 3 trying to get from somebody the thing that we think that we don't have,

Speaker 3 then we actually subvert that connection.

Speaker 2 Charlie, we invited you on the show because, you know, we got a call from one of our listeners, Rohan, Rohan, and he is struggling to meet women. He says he doesn't usually approach women in public.

Speaker 2 What should he do?

Speaker 3 Yeah. So if we believe that it's not okay to be us, that it's not okay to bother somebody, not okay to approach somebody, then what we're going to do is we're going to disengage, right?

Speaker 3 We're going to disconnect. We're going to avoid.
Because if the idea of walking up to somebody and talking to them is painful, then we're going to avoid it. We're not going to want to engage in that.

Speaker 2 I wonder

Speaker 9 how

Speaker 2 do you get past, you know, the quote-unquote cringe of it all?

Speaker 2 I think, you know, I don't know if it's the internet, I don't know what it is about the time we're in, but it's like any sense of earnestness is considered embarrassing, but it takes earnestness to make the kind of connections you're talking about.

Speaker 2 How do you get past that?

Speaker 3 Again, this comes back to that self-acceptance.

Speaker 3 I used to go into the the barber shop and I would you know tell the barber you know make me look like Brad Pitt

Speaker 3 and they would be like I'll do my best

Speaker 3 good luck with that

Speaker 3 and you know I like Brad Pitt's vibe but you know what

Speaker 3 he's doing a really good job of being Brad Pitt who I need to be is me right I need to fully own and be me

Speaker 3 the person that I really want to become interested in

Speaker 3 not only, right, but first, is myself.

Speaker 2 That was Charlie McKeever.

Speaker 2 Today's show was about men, but in a couple weeks, we'll be talking about women and their dating lives, specifically Gen X women and how they're navigating sex.

Speaker 2 How has your sex life changed through the decades? Anything surprise you? Give us a call at 1-800-618-8545 or send a voice memo to askvox at vox.com.

Speaker 2 This episode was produced by Hadi Milwagdi. It was fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch, edited by Miranda Kennedy, with mixing by Patrick Boyd.

Speaker 2 Our supervising producer is Carla Javier, and I'm John Glenn Hill. Talk to you next week.

Speaker 9 Bye!