Germany's rightward march

Speaker 1 Germans went to the polls this weekend and how it was the biggest election turnout in a generation, more than eight in ten eligible voters cast a ballot.

Speaker 1 Friedrich Mers, a conservative from the CDU party, is on track to be chancellor. He said today it's time for traditional democratic parties to start getting things done.

Speaker 2 The world won't wait for us. It won't wait for long-drawn-out coalition negotiations.

Speaker 2 We must be capable of acting again quickly so that we can do the the right thing in Germany.

Speaker 3 So that we're proud of the government.

Speaker 1 The party that came in second place, the alternative for Germany or AFD, is from the far-right fringe.

Speaker 1 So it is perhaps inevitable that America's unelected vice president Elon Musk has spoken in support of the AFD. But so has America's elected vice president J.D.
Vance.

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Speaker 1 Noel King here with Nina Haza. Nina is chief political correspondent for Deutsche Velle.
That's Germany's international broadcaster. All right, so Nina, big election in Germany this weekend.

Speaker 1 What's the headline today?

Speaker 8 The headline is that the Conservatives swept the Social Democrats out of the Chancellery and we will see a new German government in a couple of weeks' time that is going to be led by the Conservatives in a coalition, probably with the Social Democrats.

Speaker 8 And that is still going to be a pro-European, a centrist government. facing lots and lots of challenges.

Speaker 8 Also, the headline underneath is that for for the very first time in a national poll, a far-right party, the AFD, managed to get one in five German voters to vote for them.

Speaker 3 Who is the new Chancellor?

Speaker 8 The new Chancellor is a man called Friedrich Mert. He's a grandfather.
He is not an unknown figure.

Speaker 8 He entered politics in the 1990s, and he was then swept out of political power by a certain Angela Merkel from his same party.

Speaker 8 He He then re-entered politics when Angela Merkel left and he has decided to shape the Conservatives in a way that he sees fit to deal with the current challenges.

Speaker 8 He was always a fierce critic of Angela Merkel's open door policy.

Speaker 11 Our heart is big but our ability is limited. I wish someone had said that in 2015 or 16.
This can't happen again.

Speaker 8 So he's adopted a much more hardline stance on immigration, for example, And that has been one of the key issues for him in this election campaign.

Speaker 1 What were the other issues that led the Conservatives to do so well this time?

Speaker 8 The other issues were that Germans showed a lot of

Speaker 8 desire for change, big change. The current government had started out on a progressive, on a liberal agenda, and then Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.

Speaker 8 So they had to make a lot of very tough decisions. They had to try and keep the country together at very, very challenging times.
So we had a lot of political infighting.

Speaker 8 And the Conservatives at the time were the biggest opposition power. So they used that to their advantage to essentially say this government is overwhelmed.

Speaker 8 And we're going to be the ones dealing with all the the desire for change that Germans are expressing. They want more clarity when it comes to immigration.

Speaker 8 They want the German economy to get going again. Germany's economy is very sluggish at the moment.
And these were the core topics that the Conservatives focused on and won.

Speaker 1 All right, so immigration, the economy, Ukraine, that sounds familiar. This party that came in second, the AFD, tell me about it.
Where does it come from?

Speaker 8 The AFD

Speaker 8 is called Alternative for Germany. That's the name that they've given themselves.
They're a fairly young party. They were founded just over 10 years ago.

Speaker 8 They started off on a platform that was EU sceptic, that wanted to get out of the Euro, the common currency that we have here in Europe. And over the years, they have radicalized.

Speaker 9 Over the past decade, Germany has faced a wave of far-right violence and plots against Jews, Muslims, immigrants,

Speaker 9 and politicians. At the same time, support has soared for the far-right party, the AFD, alternative for Deutschland.

Speaker 12 They don't always talk about Islamification anymore. They talk about migration.
But when you ask them what they mean, they quite clearly mean migration from Muslim countries.

Speaker 8 They have gone from being an economy-focused, financial policy-focused party to being an anti-immigrant, pro-Russia, pro-China party.

Speaker 8 And that is something where lots of people here in Germany are saying this would shake up the fundamental pillars of the liberal democratic system that we have here in this country.

Speaker 8 They are under observation by Germany's intelligence agencies.

Speaker 13 The top court here in Germany has ruled that the far-right alternative for Germany party is a potential threat to democracy.

Speaker 14 Journalists gathered evidence that AFD members and neo-Nazis met in secret to discuss what far-right thinkers call a remigration project. In other words, a plan to expel millions of people.

Speaker 8 They have people in their ranks that have very close ties to the Kremlin. They have a leading figure in the east of the country who

Speaker 8 is a history teacher, but says that Germany needs to move on and stop this whining about this short period of time when this thing called the Holocaust happens.

Speaker 9 He criticized Berlin's Holocaust memorial, arguing that Germany should reverse the way it remembered its past.

Speaker 9 Prosecutors said his use of the phrase everything for Germany to a crowd of IFD supporters was illegal, effectively repeating the slogan of Adolf Hitler's stormtroopers.

Speaker 8 And that is, of course, something that has made a lot of alarm bells ring here in Germany, given our history, where many people feel reminded of just how quickly populism can lead to real-life fascism.

Speaker 8 Having said all that, the AFD say of themselves that they are libertarian conservative. They got a big push in this election campaign by Elon Musk.

Speaker 15 I'm very excited for the IFD and I think

Speaker 15 I think you're really the best hope for Germany.

Speaker 8 He held an hour-long chat with their co-leader Alice Weidel and gave them a lot of visibility on his own platforms. Okay,

Speaker 16 thank you very much Elon for having me and to give us this opportunity to

Speaker 16 openly speak about

Speaker 16 different matters. Let me just, can you hear me?

Speaker 7 I can, yes.

Speaker 16 Perfect, perfect.

Speaker 8 So they have definitely benefited from that.

Speaker 8 They've also managed to be very present in market squares, so they're very visible, they're very good at describing problems, they haven't offered many workable solutions when you look at the details in their programs, but what they've also done is they've convinced a lot of working-class people to vote for them instead of the social democrats.

Speaker 1 What does their second-place finish mean? Does this mean that they now help write German law, that the Conservative Party that won has to deal deal with them on a regular basis.

Speaker 1 Like, how much power do they have coming in where they did?

Speaker 8 They're now the second strongest political group in the Parliament, and that means that they have certain privileges when it comes to appointing the chairpeople of the committees, for example.

Speaker 8 So traditionally, the biggest opposition group, which is in this case the AFD, they lead the budget committee, so they can influence the agenda of committee meetings.

Speaker 8 then the AFD also gets a lot of time to address Parliament as the second biggest group in Parliament, so shaping the debate in Parliament. We'll hear a lot more from them.

Speaker 8 And last not least, we have a system here in this country where you have a blocking minority for certain fundamental changes to our basic law. And the AFD alone cannot do that at the moment.

Speaker 8 But if, for example, the current government wanted to make fundamental changes to the constitution to allow for more spending in support of Ukraine, then they would have to change the constitution because that is currently a part of our constitution.

Speaker 8 And the AFD, together with a far-left delinker, that also made it into Bundestag, can now block that.

Speaker 1 Your new Chancellor, Mr. Murs, has already spoken this morning.
What is he saying about working with these parties, primarily the AFD?

Speaker 8 The AFD is not going to get into government.

Speaker 8 I think that is a very important message to send also to listeners in the US: that it's considered way too far right by all the other Democratic parties, and the Conservatives have therefore ruled out collaborating with them.

Speaker 8 That is known as the firewall here, that the firewall still stands because of our country's history.

Speaker 8 Now, the AFD are also very clear that they were aware that they wouldn't enter government this time, but they're hoping for an unstable German government under Friedrich Merz now in the next couple of years.

Speaker 8 And they have their eyes on 2029 when they say that their positions will become so normalized that they might then actually enter government, if not the chancellery.

Speaker 1 What do these results mean for Germany over the next year or two?

Speaker 8 The results mean that Friedrich Mertz will have to enter coalition negotiations very quickly with the Social Democrats and very quickly come to a good deal with them so that he can form a stable government.

Speaker 8 He has a lot of challenges ahead of him.

Speaker 17 This is really the last warning to the political parties of the Democratic Center in Germany to come to joint solutions.

Speaker 8 So he said he needs to

Speaker 8 get the government together and in a stable way so that Germany can answer and give proper solutions to all these geopolitical challenges that we're facing.

Speaker 8 Because at the moment, the feeling is that liberal democracy in Europe is under threat from Russia. We're considered to be in a hybrid war with Russia,

Speaker 8 and also increasingly from the United States' new administration.

Speaker 1 Nina Haase of Deutsche Velle. Vice President J.D.
Vance shocked Germans earlier this month in Munich when he suggested that their posture toward the AFD violates the principles of free speech.

Speaker 1 What's he talking about? Stay turned.

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Speaker 17 You heard Heuter Eclair.

Speaker 12 Today explained.

Speaker 3 My name is Constanza Steltsenmüller, and I apologize. That's the name I was born with.

Speaker 1 It's beautiful.

Speaker 3 And I direct the Center on the U.S. and Europe at the Brookings Institution, Washington think tank.

Speaker 1 Constanza, Germany has gone so far as to talk about banning the far-right AFD, which banning a political party is a really serious thing in a democracy.

Speaker 1 And I want to get a sense of why so many Germans are so concerned about the AFD. Is it something that this group is doing or is it something that they're saying?

Speaker 3 Both of those things. Okay, go ahead.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, at the risk of stating the obvious, Germany has very special rules.

Speaker 3 for prohibiting parties and for hate speech because of its history, because of National Socialism that was in power in Germany between 1933 and 1945, and that led to the Holocaust and to World War II.

Speaker 3 But to answer your question about why the AFD has even gotten into the crosshairs of these legal roles, it is that its members and its leadership over the past decade have repeatedly made overt or barely veiled references to Nazi slogans and Nazi ideas.

Speaker 3 They cooperate with

Speaker 3 extreme right and neo-Nazi movements. They ally themselves with parties in the rest of Europe and also in the European Parliament that are overtly neo-Nazi.

Speaker 3 As for prosecuting hate speech, for the longest time after 1949, throughout the Cold War and much of the decades after reunification in 1990,

Speaker 3 there were always hard-right movements, there were always neo-Nazi movements, but they were socially and politically fringe, right?

Speaker 3 So it has only been the rise of the AFD in the past decade that has led to the broadening of the spectrum of what is sayable in Germany, right? What is socially and politically possible.

Speaker 3 And therefore, there has literally been more hate speech in the public domain that has received the attention of not just other political competitors, but also the courts. I will just say this,

Speaker 3 that the

Speaker 3 American Constitutional Order

Speaker 3 has always privileged freedom of speech in ways that the Germans after 1949 felt that they could not do because of the horrific experience that they had just gone through.

Speaker 4 You have never had a Holocaust.

Speaker 3 You have never started a world war.

Speaker 3 We did. And we felt that it was necessary to prescribe statements that declared allegiance to an ideology that had not just been toxic, but literally murderous.

Speaker 1 Earlier this month, Vice President J.D. Vance got on stage at the Munich Security Conference and he talked about laws throughout Europe that he says restrict free speech.

Speaker 18 I looked to Brussels, where EU commissars warn citizens that they intend to shut down social media during times of civil unrest the moment they spot what they've judged to be quote hateful content.

Speaker 1 And then he talks specifically about Germany.

Speaker 18 Where police have carried out raids against citizens suspected of posting anti-feminist comments online as part of quote combating misogyny on the internet.

Speaker 1 Here he says he believes that allowing citizens to speak their mind will make them stronger.

Speaker 18 Which of course brings us back to Munich, where the organizers of this very conference have banned lawmakers representing populist parties on both the left and the right from participating in these conversations.

Speaker 18 Now again, we don't have to agree with everything

Speaker 18 or anything that people say, but when people represent, when political leaders represent an important constituency, it is incumbent upon us to at least participate in dialogue with them.

Speaker 1 Vice President Vance never said AFD, but it seemed very clear to everyone in Germany that he was talking about the AFD.

Speaker 1 Is that right?

Speaker 3 Well, I could say that I was there in Munich. I wasn't in the exact same room.

Speaker 3 I was in the overflow of the overflow because that speech had been awaited with some, I think, a mixture of anticipation and apprehension, is fair to say, by everybody there.

Speaker 3 And one of the things that was so startling about it was that everybody had expected a speech about foreign and security policy, about the future of NATO, about the peace negotiations with Ukraine and Russia.

Speaker 3 And instead of which, the vice president said the greatest threat to security in Europe was not external, but the threat to freedom and democracy.

Speaker 18 The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any other external actor.

Speaker 18 And what I worry about is the threat from within, the retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values, values shared with the United States of America.

Speaker 3 That's something with which I think 95% of those present at the conference and listening to him would have begged to differ.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's extraordinary.

Speaker 3 We are in the middle of a war in Europe, right, where the Russians are killing people every day on the front line and by bombarding Ukrainian cities every day,

Speaker 3 and where they are also committing acts of disinformation and sabotage across Europe, including in my own country, Germany, every day.

Speaker 3 And to suggest that a public debate about prohibiting the AFT or other extremist parties or the prosecution of hate speech, to suggest that that is somehow a greater threat to security in Europe left people absolutely flabbergasted, left me flabbergasted.

Speaker 3 You could literally, you know, see and hear the shock waves ripple through the room.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 it's never happened that an American senior official, apart obviously from the efforts made by Elon Musk, who is, after all, not an elected official,

Speaker 3 that an American senior official

Speaker 3 had,

Speaker 3 in front of a European audience, espoused parties that seek to subvert the German constitution. Again, you're right that he didn't mention the AFD, but it was pretty clear whom he meant.

Speaker 3 And the people in the room and the people at the Munich Security Conference and public commentary in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, I think, completely correctly read that as an endorsement of the AFT.

Speaker 3 And by the way, the AFD is problematic not just because it references in a positive manner Germany's Nazi history.

Speaker 3 It is also problematic because it is pro-Putin, it is pro-China, it is against the European Union, it is against NATO, and I think it should also interest American listeners that it is also very anti-American, right?

Speaker 3 It's just now getting so much support from senior American figures that it is letting that part of its platform drop

Speaker 3 under the counter. And so there were

Speaker 3 multiple genuinely offensive aspects of that speech. But if the vice president was trying to help the AFD gain a greater vote share, it hasn't worked.
Again, consider the following.

Speaker 3 The AFD is stuck at around 20%, which is exactly where it was in the polls before Elon Musk and the vice president began their efforts to help it.

Speaker 3 I will say this, that while I am relieved that the AFD did not experience a triumphal result, it remains in second place and none of the democratic parties will coalition with it.

Speaker 3 And my greatest concern is that we could see a

Speaker 3 next German government that has to govern with a volatile and perhaps fragile three-way coalition actively opposed by a very strong anti-system right-wing party, the AFD,

Speaker 3 and which in turn finds vocal and determined supporters not just in Moscow and in Beijing but also in Washington DC.

Speaker 1 Constanza Steltzenmüller. She's director of the Center on the U.S.
and Europe at the Brookings Institution. Travis Larchuk produced today's show with help from Avishai Artsy.

Speaker 1 Amina El Sadi is our editor. Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristen's daughter engineered.
Laura Bullard and Victoria Chamberlain checked the facts. I'm Noelle King.
It's Today Explained.

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