Santa Rosa Murders ////// A Confluence of Killers

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All right, everybody, gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer.

Let's talk some true crime.

We last left off discussing a possible connection to two more victims, but we didn't get into the complexities of their case.

Those victims were Carrie Ann Graham and Francine Marie Trimble, who went missing together in December of 1978.

Their decomposed bodies were discovered the following July, about 80 miles north of where these two kids' families lived in Forestville, California.

Their remains were discovered together at a bottom of an embankment in a heavily overgrown wooded area beside a remote section of Highway 20.

This is dozens of miles, just a dozen miles, actually, outside of the city of Willets.

The bodies had been placed in duct-taped garbage bags.

So very different than some of our other crime scenes here, Captain, but discarded like trash, like the detectives had described with many of the other crime scenes and victims.

Police believe the victims had been killed elsewhere and then dumped in this remote location.

Carrie Ann Graham would remain unidentified until November of 2015.

So reminder here, they go missing

in December of 78.

They're found in July of 79.

This is the complexities that I'm talking about with this case in particular here in the series of cases.

Carrie-Ann Graham is not identified until November of 2015.

When the identities of both girls were confirmed via DNA profiling, their bodies were too decomposed to determine a cause of death.

No clothing was found at the scene, so it's presumed that the victims were nude when they were placed there.

A single shell earring, however, which would later be identified as belonging to Francine, was found at this scene.

So here's where this case is very different from the others.

As these two were not identified for so many years, for decades and decades.

And in fact, one part of this case that is incredibly aggravating is this particular case here, Carrie Graham and Francine Trimmel.

Because

throughout the years, the victim's family and

persons in the media, just civilians in general, kept saying, hey, those bodies you guys found about seven months after these two teenage girls go missing are probably the two missing teenagers.

Of course, yes, it's what did we say?

80 miles north of where they lived, but we're also talking about what they knew at the time

was the general age of the victims that were found and that two victims were found together.

There were not, it's not like there was an abundance of missing persons reports where it's two persons going missing together of about the same age as your bodies.

Right.

And so everybody keeps saying, Hey, it's probably those two girls.

It's probably these two girls.

Now, it's the detectives are a little handcuffed here because the information that they were getting, the scientific information that they were getting along the way, was that, you know, at first they're like, we can't confirm that it's them.

We can't confirm that it's them.

But the scientific information they were getting was that, no, one victim was a female, but the other victim that we found was definitely a male.

And then

the

belief became that it was probably

a brother and sister that had been found, that were murdered, discarded of, and had been found.

And so all of these years, for all those years, no, no, no, no, it's not Carrie Graham.

No, no, no, it's not Francine Trimble.

Right.

Only to find out in 2015 that it was in fact the same people that many people had believed it would have been for many, many years.

The only people that didn't believe it were law enforcement.

And of course, they're getting bad information from the medical examiner's office.

A lot is lost to the crime scene anyway, and to the passing of time.

Remember, time is the killer of evidence, not the killer of these two girls.

We don't know the cause of death.

They're found in trash bags, which is different than our other scenes.

But also, what kind of investigation could have been had

over those decades if we worked it with maybe the idea that we're going to leave the possibility open that it is the two missing girls.

I'm sure there was some arguments behind closed doors.

Arguments.

There were arguments behind closed doors and in front of closed doors on both sides of the doors, my friend.

So that single shell earring.

That single shell earring is discovered there, which is calling card.

We found a single earring at multiple scenes.

And then, well, here's, here's where I get infuriated here.

So what county was this?

Wait, let me see here, Captain.

Oh, Mendocino County.

Okay.

All right.

You know, when, you know, when folks say it was a Herculean effort, an undertaking that requires tremendous strength, immense effort, or you're faced with extreme difficulty, but you overcame it.

This double homicide investigation, while the modern detectives did a fine job and deserve an add-a-boy or an add-a-girl because they did come to the right conclusion and they did finally figure out who these victims were, but not the folks who worked this thing back in the day.

They worked this thing about as hard as Fobi Malik falling asleep in the back office.

This is one where you just want to grab the sheriff office's public information officer and smack him over the head with a phone book and say, no, no, no, no, go back to the medical examiner and demand that they do another autopsy or better yet, bring bring in a pathologist another pathologist and take another look take a new look

because these people are beating down our doors and will not quiet our our phones telling us that they believe it's the two missing girls meanwhile it was the entire time and while you did get it right in the end what does it matter now your case still sits there open, unsolved.

And how many people could you have talked to in those decades?

It's very complicated to talk to them now because either they moved away, they don't remember, or they have passed away themselves.

Well, when you're in the office and you ask Steve to make you a hundred copies of some report and he keeps handing you back 10 pages instead of 100 pages, and then you just do it yourself and you make the hundred copies.

Steve didn't get it correct.

Steve is still an asshole.

Steve.

Steve Arino making copies.

Although the initial autopsy report correctly determined that the victims found had likely died in December of 1978.

Okay, did you hear what I just said?

The initial autopsy report determined that the two victims found

who were determined to not be adults

died in the same month

that two missing teenage, the same month that the two, when the two missing teenagers disappeared.

Right.

I mean, everything is telling you that it's them.

So the autopsy.

The autopsy report concluded that the victims were those of a male and a female.

As I said, as such, investigators did not consider the possibility that the decedents may have been Graham and Trimble, and the age was wrong on one of the victims as well to further complicate making any actual identification.

On July 2nd, 1979, the skeletal remains of another probable victim of the Santa Rosa killer, known only as Jane Doe, was discovered 100 yards from the location where Lori Kursa's remains had been found six years earlier in the 2000 block of Cullistoga Road.

It appeared that

Jane Doe had been hogtied with a Venetian blind cord, and her left arm had been fractured in that process.

According to authorities, they are instantly and obviously making a connection to the manner in which Teresa Walsh had been found, bound, ultimately leading to her death.

This victim was then stuffed into a duffel bag before being crudely dumped into the ravine.

Yeah, but see, there's connection.

There's escalation.

Are these cases connected?

Well, some of the victims are found in the nude, not in bags.

And now we got these other victims in bags, but there's a time period that elapsed between killings.

So

there's somebody adapting.

So dumping the body in basically the same location, you go, ding, ding, ding, there's a connection somehow, some way.

And it could just be, it could be as simple as, well, this is the same killer, or it could be that there's a killer that has taken in this information and used this area to dump their victim.

But I lean more towards the fact that it's just the same killer.

Yeah,

we're talking about multiple agencies here.

So I don't want to sound like I'm just pointing the finger at the same people over and over again and saying, I don't think you did a good job.

Yeah, but the thing is, is if they think they did a good job, then why is the end result that we don't know?

who the killer is.

You know, I've spoke to a lot of detectives and a lot of people in law law enforcement, and most of the time they'll say, hey, look, there's one or two that got away from me, and those will bother me forever.

And maybe it was because I made a misstep.

Maybe it was because I was going through a divorce.

Maybe I wasn't as focused as I needed to be.

Maybe I was a little burnt out.

Yes, we're talking a little shit about these investigators, but I think they might be willing to raise their hand and maybe talk shit about themselves during this investigation.

Well, and it's not even our words either.

I mean, go back to our examination of the Mine Hunter show.

Bill Titch's character references it there, and then we did the work to determine and confirm that the fictional character's information was, in fact, correct when he says that the state of California has a lower clearance rate than on homicide cases than most of the United States.

And that is, in fact, true.

Well, there's a reason for that.

And he points out some reasons why that the killer in some cases has a leg up on the opposition.

But also, we know that sometimes people just don't do great investigations.

Either they don't know how to, they're not allowed to by

their

superiors.

They're handcuffed for some reason or other, or

they just didn't do a good job.

And

look, so I circled back to the Jane Doe and wanted to talk about the Jane Doe for good reason because we talked about two Jane Does, once labeled a John Doe and Jane Doe, that went unidentified for decades and decades.

And now we know we have

this other unidentified female victim.

She was thought to be between the ages of 16 and 20 years old.

Fits the victimology that we're talking about as far as age goes, about five foot three inches tall with red, auburn, or brown hair no clothing was present at the crime scene just like many of the other crime scenes but police found a small metal candy tin with a picture of cherries on the front containing a pair of hard contact lenses presumably belonging to the victim remember this is how that they determined that the death very likely occurred between 1972 and 1974 which very neatly fits into the time frame of the other victims that we talked about.

I'm bringing her up again because one good work that they did, one good piece of work that they did do, not that they didn't do others, just citing this one particular here, that in 2009, they did DNA testing to try to figure out who she was.

And it's not crazy that a lot of people thought for many years that this Jane Doe very likely could be the ever-missing Jeanette Kamahale, who has never been seen again, but has always been tethered to this series of murders.

Even though her body's not been found, she's not been recovered alive and well.

So they wanted to, one, A, figure out who the Jane Doe is and make sure, is it Jeanette Kamahale or not?

In 2009, we learn via DNA testing that it was not Jeanette Kamahale.

But we talked about strategies for your investigation back in 1974 and 75.

Well, actually, we were going back to 72 and 73.

Strategies for your investigation and your team in 72 and 73.

Well, talking about potential strategies as how you may work the case today in 2025 would be, let's identify this Jane Doe.

Let's identify her because

it plays into your investigation for many reasons.

If you can identify her, most people are killed by somebody that they know.

That immediately is going to open up a suspect pool in this particular murder victim's investigation.

That pool may lead you to somebody that killed some of these other women as well.

And

I sit here and I look at these cases, Captain, and

I see that I believe that a lot of them are connected.

I believe that a lot of them were probably carried out by the same killer or killers.

And I do believe that there's probably

one or two cases here that were not.

I pointed out one in particular earlier.

And then I also think that there's a chance that maybe a couple of these girls were killed by a, by definition, serial killer, just not by the same serial killer that may have killed a handful of the other victims.

Which I think you'd be right to speculate about.

I mean, there was an argument for a long time that

and

Lis case that there possibly was two murderers.

Because of where the bodies were found.

And those bodies were found, a couple bodies grouped together, and then the Gilgo four obviously grouped together.

And then you're sitting there, again, speculating, is it one or two killers here?

working in the same, operating in the same territory.

We talked a lot about the potential victims that are presented by law enforcement and the FBI in 1975 as victims, pointing out that maybe this killer continued to kill after 72 and 73.

There's possible links to maybe an earlier victim.

So there is a further question, not just if these were all connected, but when did the murders actually start?

So while the Santa Rosa murders weren't officially recognized as having begun until 1972, there are sources out there that strongly suggest and consider another victim, Lisa Michelle Smith, to have been an earlier victim of the Santa Rosa killer.

Lisa, a 17-year-old Pataluma resident, was hitchhiking on Hearn Avenue in Santa Rosa, California in the early morning hours of March 16th, 1971, when she seemed to just poof vanish.

In true 1970s manner, the teen was wearing green bell bottoms, a white ruffled blouse and white cowboy boots and a dark navy peacoat.

And she was last seen thumbing a ride.

Her outfit's so distinctive that I believe the eyewitness reports of people coming forward saying, hey, I saw somebody matching that description who was out hitchhiking on that day when this young woman vanished.

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All right, we are back, mate.

I hope you are kicking nuts and sucking butts today.

Talk hands in the air.

Cheers to you, Colonel.

Cheers to you, Captain.

I hope you are not doing any of those things.

It depends on what kind of butts.

Her case is strange.

You know, we, all of them are strange, obviously, but we talk about a lot of times in these cases where you have an unidentified serial killer, serial offender of any nature, that there is a high likelihood that someone, there's someone out there that got away.

And that's the person you want to find.

That's your witness.

that you need because they're going to have intimate knowledge about that serial offender.

Knowledge that and information that, unfortunately, the only other persons to come into that information and that knowledge are not here to tell us about what they saw, what they heard, what they witnessed, words spoken by the monster itself.

We mentioned that this Lisa Smith vanished, right?

She's reported missing by her parents, never resurfaced.

Around the same time, the media catches wind of this story about a young woman who's like 20, 21, who was going by the name of Lisa Smith.

Now, mind you, let's, to be fair, the very common name.

But this Lisa Smith was treated at a Nevado General Hospital, at the Nevado General Hospital, for injuries, including a skull fracture and severe cuts and bruises.

This woman told medical personnel that she had been assaulted at gunpoint by a motorist who picked her up, saying that the man had threatened to rape her, but she had escaped by jumping out of the moving pickup truck, which caused, likely caused or furthered her injuries she already sustained during this assault.

So she's treated, but she doesn't stick around long enough for the authorities to get there to interview her.

There is an article that was in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat in April of 1971 that reported that the woman treated at the hospital was the same Lisa Smith that was missing, the 17-year-old Patalumatine.

They've never been able to figure out: was she, in fact, the same missing Lisa Smith?

But in 2011, the same outlet that reported the teenage Lisa who had vanished in March of 71 was never found.

Eventually, they're saying that they're not actually the same person.

How they were able to confirm this, or at least believe that they had enough information to release this report i don't know i don't know because it seems to it seems to suggest that they were looking at it as if she could be the same person but with that common name did this woman give the a wrong name on purpose

is she giving a wrong name due to the skull fracture this is one of those stories that it's like

If we had more information, if she was in fact the same Lisa Smith, what could she tell us about that that assailant?

And if she wasn't the Lisa Smith, is this whole part of the story just fictitious?

Right.

But also, does she remember this at all?

Yeah, and where is this person?

So, this was one of those angles that I didn't know whether to include it or not, but rather than being accused of not being thorough, I thought, let's put it in there.

I don't think it's helpful in any shape or form, but it is helpful.

Thank you.

And the part that I do think is helpful is to point out that there was a victim who is very similar to a lot of our other victims, who was known to be hitchhiking, was in fact last seen to be hitchhiking in March of 71 in Santa Rosa.

So we could have another victim.

This could be the first victim.

in the series of dreadful murders that took place after

this young woman went missing.

Suspects, Captain?

There's many.

You want to talk about suspects.

The suspects are weird in this case because you can look at some of the suspects and go, whoa, this clears a lot of things up.

And really, truly, the more you dig on each of these suspects, it doesn't.

It makes things all that more confusing.

One thing you brought up to several of our beautiful listeners, you know, we were sitting at Crime Con.

We get,

we're always amazed because we have fun here in the garage

the best we can, given the subject matter, and showing sensitivity and respect for the people in these stories that deserve it.

Yeah, occasionally you make some rude and sensitive remarks, but other than that, we have a good time.

So, we're sitting there at Crime Con at our booth, and you know, we get the most brilliant, lovely, great-looking listeners come up.

They smell,

they smell good, and we're and so we're just like, hey, you know, aren't we the luckiest?

We got the best audience, clearly the best audience.

We saw other podcasters' booths and tables, not such a good thing.

Their audience sucked.

Their audience sucked.

And one thing that I heard, you know, we get in these

conversations with the different listeners at Crime Con.

And one thing, conversation that I overheard on your end a couple of times was the, because of our location where we were, you know, we're in Denver slash Aurora, Colorado.

And you had said, you know, maybe somebody should come up with the capital of true crime.

What is the capital of true crime?

And that was an interesting question to ponder and an interesting conversation to be had there in Colorado because of all of the very infamous cases.

that have come out of over came out from that area over the years.

John Bonet, cases we've we've covered, the Aurora theater shooter, Columbine, Columbine, Hammer Slayer was from that area.

We've covered a lot.

Chris Watts, we've covered a lot of cases from that area.

And at first, I didn't know what you were talking about.

And I was like, well, if we're talking about all kinds of, you know, just the multitude, the

overwhelming number of crimes, well, of course, it's going to be New York or LA.

But I think you could have this conversation here in regard to the Santa Rosa murder case.

Because here,

once we start digging through the suspects that have been openly discussed by many other people, I might toss a couple into the equation that haven't been so openly discussed.

You sit here and you, I call this, this wouldn't be the capital of true crime, but I call this like a confluence of killers.

Because there's been so many known,

and then in the case of the Zodiac, unknown serial killers to have been linked, potentially linked to one of these cases or a lot of the cases that fall under the Santa Rosa murder cases.

Let me throw one out real quick here that seems to have been discussed at length, but also discarded of.

There's an infamous case called the Hillside Stranglers case.

These two, it was carried out by Kenneth Bianchi and Angelo Buono.

We've talked about them.

We've never covered the Hillside case in the garage, but we've talked a little bit about, especially about Kenneth Bianchi, when we were discussing the alphabet murders or the double initial lyrics.

They were looked at, or at least looked at by the true crime community, let's say.

These were the diabolical cousins that were responsible for the murders of 10 women between October 1977 and February of 1978.

They left their victims on hillsides, which is not unlike where we're finding some of our victims here in this case.

This general statement is they were ultimately ruled out.

I don't know that they've been officially ruled out in any real capacity, but it seems like most people move on rather quickly from the two of them because

they appear to not have been active at all until late 1977.

I will say this, though.

It wouldn't shock me one bit if Angelo Buono,

who lived in California much longer than Kenneth Bianchi did,

it wouldn't surprise me if he was actively killing earlier than we are currently aware of.

This was a very evil man.

This was a, I mean, he was

evil to his family,

to his, to his children, to his stepchildren, to his wife.

He was just a

devil, a demon of a man.

It's hard to call him.

He doesn't want to kick his own dog.

I I don't want to go.

I have part of the reason that we've not discussed them before or examined their case is some of the things that this guy did to his family is just to and to the victims, just very difficult to discuss.

But it sounds like the community has moved on from them.

We do know Kenneth Bianchi was active without his cousin Angelo Buono.

So

I think it would be ignorant of us to, for a second, think that Angelo didn't do horrific things without the help of his cousin.

Ted Bundy is one who is often discussed in this case.

We know that he traveled several states.

He was a killer in multiple states and managed to remain unidentified for

many years in some of the cases.

And we know that his preferred victim would be university and college students.

Wouldn't he be quite young for these murders?

Not really.

I mean,

he started killing in January of 1974.

So

to say he wasn't killing in 72 or 73 doesn't seem like much of a stretch.

I think where the problem becomes is that it's a little more difficult to tie him to the area, right?

Because he was killing up in Washington state.

But we do know that he did spend some time going to college down in California and he had

he had a girlfriend down there for a period of time as well so he would have traveled through this area and then there are some that have suggested that at times you know he his look changed and you it's very easy to see this on the internet uh with Ted Bundy but One of the looks that he had at some point, remember we have the bushy-haired man or the Afro-haired Caucasian male.

That he did have a look that wouldn't be

a stretch from that general description.

In fact, there are reports that he was wearing his hair in that style in 1972, which would have been the same year as those witness statements.

But didn't he also tell law enforcement that he committed murders in California?

No, that's interesting.

So I'm glad you brought that up.

Robert Keppel,

who believed

that

Bundy refused to talk about California, Robert Keppel believed that Ted Bundy had killed at least one person in California.

Robert Keppel, and it sounds like the FBI believed that there was reason to connect him to these one or two or several of these Santa Rosa murders.

And Keppel says, you know,

what he believed Bundy was doing was holding back information because he knew that it was a bartering piece to buy him more time to stay off of buy him another day, a week, or months from sitting down on the electric chair in Florida, where he was ultimately executed.

Keppel says

that he said, I want to talk about Florida, or sorry, I want to talk about California to Bundy and that Bundy didn't want to talk about California.

Now, why wouldn't Bundy want to talk about California?

One, a bartering piece that he might want to say for later.

Two, California, death penalty, which is different than some of the other states that he had committed his murders in.

There are persons that say

that he was ultimately ruled out because there are credit card records placing him in

Washington state, definitively placing placing him in Washington state.

So he would be many hours away from where these abductions and murders took place.

However, here's what I want to say about Bundy, because you could devote

two hours to just Bundy's likelihood or not likelihood of being connected to one of these cases or many of them.

There are reasons to suggest that he could have done it.

All right.

He did dispose of his victims in rural areas.

This is a very similar victimology.

He did like getting his victims into his vehicle.

Right.

The credit card receipts, the way as

I have not been able to view them with these eyeballs that God gave me,

what I've been told is while some will argue that that

will rule him out, others will argue that, no, that you can't say that because he was in Washington state on a Thursday, that he didn't kill a girl that was picked up and murdered on a Wednesday.

Right.

And that would be accurate.

The time would allow for that.

My other question would be, did he have a girlfriend at the time?

And was he allowing them to use his credit card?

And so, did he actually make those purchases on the credit card or not?

Well, and if you look up the Santa Rosa hitchhiker murders case and Ted Bunny's involvement on Wikipedia, the thing that irks me is when they say, well, he was ruled out

because they also believe that this individual lived in Santa Rosa and that they believed it was somebody that worked as a mail carrier or a public utility worker because they would have been familiar with these remote rural locations.

Well, guess what?

These

killers,

they look for these locations.

They get familiar with these locations.

And look, the timing might be a little bit off here.

I'm not saying that Bundy makes the best suspect.

I'm simply saying that I think he makes a decent suspect.

And I had referenced Stanford University earlier.

We have a girlfriend of his that graduated from and left Washington in the middle of 68 and moved to San Francisco.

So when visiting her, he would be traveling to and from.

And he also earned a scholarship to study Chinese at Stanford University.

in 68.

So while that doesn't fit our timeline real well, it also, what what it does point out is that he would have been going to this area, even living in this area at some point in his

life.

When he started killing is difficult to say,

when the Santa Rosa murder started is equally difficult to say, and he would have been 22, 23-ish when he would have been in the San Francisco area.

And he also had the skills to get victims into his car.

Yes, unfortunately.

That was one of his serial killer superpowers that we all wish he did not possess.

So we've mentioned Zodiac, we've mentioned Hillside Stranglers, and then Ted Bundy.

How about one that is lesser known?

Frederick Menale.

Now, that might, if you're familiar with this case, you're familiar with that name.

If you're new to this case, you are new to that name.

But police became aware of Frederick Menale in

1976.

So he emerged as a person of interest in this case.

He

died in 1976.

At the time, he was a 41-year-old former Santa Rosa junior college English teacher.

So he's an English professor and creative writing instructor.

He died in a head-on collision on Highway 12 on August 24th, 1976.

So his passing, while shocking and accidental, he's still alive for

the general time period of when these killings take place that we're looking at here.

Right.

His other tie is that he had been Wendy Allen's, Kim Wendy Allen's professor.

Santa Rosa victim Kim Wendy Allen's professor.

Among his belongings, investigators discovered sadomastochistic drawings portraying none other than his student Kim Allen.

Inexplicably, he had drawn Kim alongside a feminized version of himself that he called Frida.

They also found obscene sketches of other young women depicting them all in compromising and humiliating positions, and at times with Menale himself depicted in this his sick artwork that he's making but these are just red flags this is not a smoking gun additionally and

I'm gonna limp in here with this statement because I've seen this reported I've seen it debunked and I can't confirm what is correct but it's often been reported that also among his belongings was a backpack that many believe belong to Kim.

So So we talked about when she went missing, one of the possessions she is believed to have on her person at the time was her backpack.

And there are people who believe that's where your smoking gun would be.

Yes.

Yes.

Right.

And I will agree with you that while the artwork, if you want to call it that, is not a smoking gun, I will agree 100% with that statement.

What I want to really emphasize, though, here is,

it's I believe that it's while while I don't think you could convict this guy on that

I find it very

very strange that this youngster

is found all tied up yeah in a very intricate specific unique way Nobody knows who killed her.

And then here's somebody that has a direct connection to the victim.

And later in his possessions are found sadomastic kickstick drawings where he has her all tied up in sexual positions yeah the big thing for me would be the book bag but again

i i tried to dive into this as much as i could

one report will say yeah it's true and other people say well he had backpacks but we don't know if they belong to to kim or not Yeah, so police have said that they think that maybe he became obsessed with her after she was found in that manner, after she had been killed.

Look, we recommend we are big proponents of therapy here in the garage, but I don't know how therapeutic it would be to,

I just, I cannot,

it's very difficult for me to dismiss this detail

of

a victim being found in such a unique manner and then somebody going out of their way to create depictions of that.

That is so

similar to BTK

and the things that he did,

both on a piece of paper and inside the homes of his victims.

That is so similar to what a lot of other serial killers have done, where they have to, for whatever reason,

that's part of their nature, that some of them have to keep these fantasies alive.

And they do that by creating imagery of those victims and of those crimes.

But then you'd have to prove that Kim Allen's case was connected to the other ones, and that this possibly could be his one and only victim.

I agree with that, but that's why I've gone out of the way multiple times in this four-part series to point out how

uniquely this victim was tied up.

And I think another smoking gun would be in his artwork, does it depict the same

positions?

Is there anything that is another smoking gun as far as

because in a sense,

it's a visual confession.

Is there something he's confessing to in this visual artwork that

these details, only the killer would know

about the details of the crime?

When you have two other victims that are tied up in a very similar manner, it's not a far leap to say,

well, these two or three crimes, these two or three murders are probably connected.

And yes, Captain, you're asking all the right questions, but I'm not, I cannot be so dismissive of this air quotes artwork.

It's strange.

It's very strange.

It puts him in a very, very small percentile of life events.

I mean, it just,

the numbers start to get smaller and smaller and smaller of

of if if he is just completely innocent of the number of people that you could pull into a room and say that that yeah this girl happens to be killed happens to be killed in this manner and then somebody's spending their time creating drawing depictions and imagery of this girl being tortured and tied up.

And like you said, it was one of his students.

So there's your ruse to get her in the car.

Hey, I'm your professor.

I'll give you a ride.

No big deal.

Look,

give me this evidence against this guy in a little bit of time.

I think I could get a conviction.

In 2022,

police started taking a look at serial rapist Jack Alexander Boykin to an unsolved murder,

1997 murder of Michelle Vail in Sonoma County.

Boykin, who had died in prison the year before, had been serving time for a series of rapes and attempted murder.

So here's a guy where you have a serial rapist who's being locked up forever.

They

committed,

convicted of one attempted murder, but they didn't think this guy was, in fact, a murderer.

After his death, they link his DNA to

DNA found at the 96 murder of Michelle Vail.

So now you have

a very violent offender, very violent serial offender, who you now know has, in fact, murdered.

He was in this area at this time.

And so since 2022, authorities have been exploring the possibility that he may be responsible for the Santa Rosa murders or for some of the Santa Rosa murders.

The victim here, Michelle,

was found similar to our Santa Rosa victims, or at least some of them.

She was found nude along a rural road.

I think something, and I'd want to know this, and not to jump back to a suspect, but this Frederick, right?

Was his ears pierced?

Because, like you said, he has these drawings depicting him as a female.

Did he have his ears pierced?

Ears pierced.

on males in the late 60s, early 70s would be abnormal.

So I'd wonder, does this killer have his ears pierced?

And are they leaving the earring behind, but taking the other earring?

And maybe as a souvenir or even wearing it later when they fantasize about these crimes.

And making it a

forever connection from killer to victim.

That's intriguing because

one would believe you find these other earrings, the missing earring, it's like Cinderella's slipper.

We've not found those.

What I would like to know further too is even if you don't find these with the

with Frederick here, but tell me, tell us more about this artwork, about these drawings.

Was he drawing earrings?

Was that something that popped up in some of

his demented artwork that he was putting together that I would like to know.

But it would be the jewelry question, the earring question that would lead us to our next talked about suspect.

His name is Jim Mordecai.

This is from the

recent HBO Max documentary, The Truth About Jim,

where it was suggested that a high school vocational teacher and part-time landscaper, Jim Mordecai, may have been responsible for some or most or all of the Santa Rosa slings.

Mordecai died of cancer in 2008.

He spent time with his family on an isolated ranch near Santa Rosa in Sonoma County since the 1970s.

Jim would have been intimately familiar with the secluded back roads of this area.

He had no, we should point out, he had no criminal record, but family members were

shocked, disturbed, troubled, whatever, fill in the blank here

when

they found a box containing odd mismatched jewelry, including single earrings that were found in his belongings.

So the jewelry did not belong to any of the family members and the family members don't understand why he would have had this in his possession.

They don't understand what it means.

And so the jewelry here has led him to be a suspect in the eyes of some.

A lot of the jewelry that was found would be described as such that would have been worn by young women, college-age women, teenage girls in the 70s.

So it fits the time period, it fits the victimology.

The part of this, though, that we need to keep in mind, too, is with the Jim Mordecai stuff.

One problem with the story is that it's similar to stories about the Zodiac, right?

Everybody in California has got a stepdad or an uncle that was the Zodiac.

And whatever,

whatever item that they found in a garage or a basement at some point that told them that, whoa, hold on, this guy is probably the Zodiac, that item always seems to have vanished by the time that

there's the proper people to document this potential evidence.

And just like that,

the box of jewelry does not exist

to this day.

If it does, it's not been found.

It wasn't shown in the documentary, The Truth About Jim.

His family does raise some very interesting questions about him.

While it sounds like he was not a very nice guy, they also point out that

similar to the Zodiac documentary, or the,

I don't know if we should call it a Zodiac documentary.

It's more of an

Arthur Lee Allen documentary on Netflix.

Very similar in the truth about Jim to the Arthur Lee Allen Netflix documentary is that family members, young family members saying,

well, he would drive out to these locations where they had previously found a body, or in some cases, my memory says that we drove to the location where a body was later found.

So there's a lot of very speculative,

unconfirmed,

uncorroborated speculation about why Jim Mordecai could have been involved in some or

all of the murders here.

To me, I watched the documentary.

I thought it was interesting.

I thought that it did point out that he was a bad dude.

There was abuse.

It sounds like Mordecai was not only a bully, but very much abusive towards women and young,

maybe even young girls.

I don't have any reason to push back on those claims, but

to say he was a serial killer, he's not here to defend himself.

And I had not heard the name.

I don't think most had heard or nor considered that name until the documentary came out.

They were working with the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office in August of 2022 with the family to submit his DNA to try to come to some kind of conclusion here.

If we are doing that, then that makes me wonder how much DNA do we have here?

Do we have enough that we can identify the killer or at least identify the killer in one of these cases?

Because there still seems to be some low-hanging fruit, some meat on the bone with this investigation, right?

Identify your Jane Doe.

That will help further your investigation.

If there is DNA in one of these cases, even if it's just one of these cases,

let's hand it off to a privatized lab.

Work it, work the familial DNA that you can get from that.

Find the family tree, and let's solve at least one of these damn things.

Yeah, the other problem, too is the time period.

We live in a disposable economy and a lot of the stuff that we buy is not everlasting.

And this

gym probably was raised by somebody that went through the Great Depression.

So you have,

you know, that would be my big question too, is how much stuff was he holding on to?

Did he have boxes of old tools?

Did he have boxes of old screws and nails?

And

was he just a collector of things?

Did he think, well, these have some value, so I'm not going to just throw them away, even though I'm not going to use them?

Yeah, so some of the jewelry that was found was as, again, we're going off of descriptions here because it doesn't, nobody can find it today.

But one description, there are many that say that this exactly matches some missing jewelry that was worn by one of the victims, Maureen Sterling.

But again, it's all hearsay until you produce the physical item.

Another part of the Mordecai story is that the man seen at the skating rink, which Maureen Sterling was the victim, one of the skating rink victims, ice rink victims, remember the witness that saw the two victims talking to an older man and may have even left with that man.

This witness in 2022 or 2021, when shown a picture of Jim Mordecai from 1972, what he, you know, a picture of him in 1972, that that witness said it could be Jim Mordecai that I saw that day.

Now, you're being asked that question nearly 50 years later, but they didn't jump out of their seat and go, absolutely not.

So it is worth and interesting to explore.

I do want to throw a bit of a caveat into the equation here, though, Captain, because it's my understanding that that same witness years prior, when shown a picture of what Ted Bundy looked like in 1972, said the same thing.

That guy kind of looks like the guy.

Well, all white guys look the same.

But also didn't jump out of their chair and say, absolutely not.

Right.

I don't want to put too much weight to that eyewitness's statement because there's a chance if you showed I appreciate the witness's honesty is what I'm trying to say here.

Is it sounds like if you would have shown this witness a picture of a lot of people that they would probably say the same thing that can't say absolutely yes, but I definitely won't say absolutely no.

Yeah, I think this case is absolutely fascinating.

The problem is with all these suspects, I think there's a few details that you go,

I could, I could pin some of these crimes on this suspect.

But then, again, it goes back to is one of these crimes a bundy crime is the other crime what's the problem with jim

suspect or are all these connected well and let me toss out a couple names that that aren't

that are not regularly discussed with the santa rosa case as interesting as the names are that we've already discussed i one that i i that popped into my head immediately after going through a lot of the information was terry petter Rasmussen.

So Rasmussen, this, wow, we're going way back in the garage archives right now.

Rasmussen

was many, many years after the fact

believed to be the perpetrator of the Bear Brook murders, which took place in 1978.

in Allenstown, New Hampshire.

I think we called it bodies in the barrel or barrel bodies, something of that nature.

But this was the,

it almost looked like a family of females were found in barrels and had been placed in the woods in Bear Brook State Park in Allenstown, New Hampshire,

many, many years

before they were found.

or at least some period of time before they were found, obviously.

So they were found in 1985.

A second barrel was found in 2000, about 100 yards away from the first location.

It took many years to develop the identity of some of the victims that were found in these barrels.

What we ultimately learn is that one of these victims was a biological daughter to the man I just said his name, Terry Petter Resmussen.

So it's been determined or believed that

Very likely he killed them, disposed of them in these barrels, left them, but he was never charged in court, never tried in court for, never charged, or never tried in court for these murders.

Now, we do know that he married

En Soon-Jung in 1999.

This is much closer to the crimes that we're talking about today.

He

pled guilty, to the surprise of the court, in Contra Costa County for this murder.

So this was his girlfriend at the time of of her death, and he was living under a different name of Larry Vanner.

We would almost need a separate episode to go through all of his aliases.

He lived under Bob Evans, under the name of Bob Evans, Lawrence William Vanner, Gerald Mockerman.

He had many aliases, and he lived in many different areas.

In fact, he's been tied to several crimes, several murders, after his death.

I don't see anywhere where he's been talked about as being an option here.

But if you take a look at this guy in his 2002 mugshot, and then you take a look at some pictures that we have of him from his earlier life, it's not difficult to believe that he may have looked similar to the description provided to us by the witness saying that they saw a victim with an Afro-haired Caucasian male.

The reason why I bring him up is not only did he move around, but that would be too easy, right?

It'd be too easily convenient to say, oh, well, he moved around, so it must have been him.

No, he actually has direct ties to, you can place him in and around Redwood, California.

And we know that he was there.

in

the late 60s and at times in the early 70s.

And he worked as an electrician.

And we talked about how it was openly speculated by law enforcement that, well, maybe

the killer is some kind of utility worker that has the ability to be on the road and be by themselves for large portions of their day and their week.

Yeah, but I also find this, I mean, I find...

This very fascinating because some of these killers will have these relationships and they have friends and

families and they and they never kill or even you know do anything criminal to these individuals, but then they kill strangers.

And I don't even necessarily think that they hold a human life

in more regards.

Oh, this is my

daughter or this is my wife.

So therefore her life is more important.

I don't even know if that's the case all the time.

But then I think there are some killers that are

they're going to

kill, but it's just people that they are connected to as opposed to killing strangers.

Absolutely.

No, I agree with that 1,000%.

But I would also,

my pushback on that would be that just

being capable of

killing in the first place separates you from a large portion of the population.

So, so your pool starts to shrink immensely.

We know he was.

Look, Redwood City,

Redwood City is just south of San Francisco.

And so we know that he was in this area from the late 60s until 1975.

So

while there's nothing other than putting a known serial killer in the area at the time, for this guy,

I'm not trying to make a hard press that this is the dude, but to my credit,

what I think should be pointed out is this is no different than what many others have done with several other serial killers: say, hey, they were in this area at this time and we can prove it.

We know it to be true.

So they should have some consideration into the equation.

I'm actually surprised that he's not discussed because with some of these serial killers, known serial killers,

they are openly discussed just simply because we know they have the ability to kill.

We know that they killed female victims and we know that they were in the area or had ties to the area.

He checks every box that I just said.

Yeah, but I think the problem again with this case is...

Are they connected?

And I think sometimes people are ruling out these good suspects because they're looking at all the cases and like the totality of it all and and going, well, I'm going to rule this suspect out because he's not a great fit for this other crime.

That's why I suggest you don't investigate them as such.

That only troubles your investigation.

You investigate them independently of one another, especially when you've openly speculated that you cannot 100%

connect them.

So investigate them independently of one another.

Why?

Because that's what you do on a regular basis.

That's what you do on the daily.

You investigate a single homicide.

That's what you and your team knows how to do.

Another person that is not regularly talked about here

is

Joseph D'Angelo.

Also, aka the Golden State.

killer, ears, ons,

the original Night Stalker.

I mean, how many names?

He's got a lot of the vans, the Vasilia

Ransacker, the East Area Rapist, Eastside Rapist, East Bay Rapist, Creekbed Killer, Diamond Knot Killer, Original Nightstalker, Ears Ons, Golden State Killer.

This guy's got no shortage of monikers.

He too

in the area at the time.

Yes, this would have been before he started killing, but would like to point out here that this would have been,

you want to, they often will talk about stressors.

Well,

he became engaged to a nursing student, Bonnie Caldwell, in May of 1970.

The relationship ended in 1971.

There are people that say that the Santa Rosa murder started in 71.

Everybody seems to agree that they started in 72 in February.

with the abduction of the two girls at the ice rink.

Again, putting a very very dangerous man, a known serial killer in the area at the same time,

not difficult to do.

There is a book out there, and I want to be clear here.

I've not had the opportunity to read it, and I was hoping to get a chance to read it before we put together these episodes,

but I did not.

And the reason why I had to put it, I had to prioritize other resources in front of this one

because I'm uncertain if she was attempting to make the connection.

But there's a book out there called What If?

The Golden State Killer,

Zodiac Solved, The Shocking True Story of Evil 58 Years After Freedom.

This is by Ann Penn.

This book came out a few years ago, maybe five years ago.

But in the book, and I can speak to what the book is talking about, one, just based off of the title, and two, based off of I've read interviews that she's done.

I've read information that she's put out outside of this book, and I've listened to interviews that she's done.

She is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo and the Zodiac killer are one and the same.

She is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo committed other murders outside of the ones that we know he has committed.

I think she makes a strong argument.

I'm not willing to say that D'Angelo was the Zodiac, not willing to say that he was the Santa Rosa killer, but I think that it's worth listening to.

And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to read that book.

A lot of her statements and a lot of her findings, she researched this thing for many, many years.

In fact,

to the point that when D'Angelo was named after his arrest as the Golden State killer, she was saying, all right, well, they're going to be testing the Zodiac DNA.

When do we find out?

When are we going to hear that D'Angelo was the Zodiac?

So please, again, a lot of times things that make their way onto the show,

people will think that they are, in fact, our theories that we are pushing.

This is not one that I'm pushing.

This is one that I find to be interesting.

And I think it would be

remiss of many if they were just so quick to dismiss it.

Because the Zodiac has never been identified.

There's a lot of interesting suspects in the Zodiac case, and the Santa Rosa murderer has never been identified.

So, until that happens, I think everything's on the table.

And every one of these guys, for different arguments and for sometimes the same argument,

make for very good suspects.

Now, that will lead us to what we started off talking about early on in this case, something that law enforcement was openly speculating about in 1973, 74, 75, and even afterward.

People that investigated these homicides have said to the media that there's a chance that the Zodiac may be responsible for some or all of the Santa Rosa cases.

What makes it even more interesting is if you go beyond that, so you can argue that's the 30,000-foot view.

Zoom in, my friends.

You can look at one individual in particular, his name Arthur Lee Allen.

And

this is the angle that fascinates me to no end with this particular case.

You could look at this case and say the Zodiac is the Santa Rosa murder.

You could look at this case and maybe say Arthur Lee Allen is the Zodiac and the Zodiac is the Santa Rosa murder.

I think you could also look at some of the details in Arthur Lee Allen's life, the Zodiac series, the Santa Rosa series, and also say there's a chance that Arthur Lee Allen was not the Zodiac, but was the Santa Rosa murderer or responsible for some of the Santa Rosa cases.

I want that to be clear because

I've seen a lot of people that are so quick to dismiss him in these homicides.

By saying, well, no, no, no, no way was he the Zodiac.

I actually don't like him that much for the Zodiac case.

I think he's a good suspect.

I think he stays on the table.

He should remain on the table until we solve that.

He's a good suspect for many reasons that other people have pointed out.

Well, and I think if you watch the Netflix series, The Zodiac Speaking, it's hard to walk away from that and not go, there's something here.

Well, exactly.

I mean, it would be difficult to walk away from the information we know about Arthur Lee Allen without it being pointed out to us with that documentary and say there may be something here.

A lot of it is the timeline of things in the Zodiac series lines up with Arthur Lee Allen's timeline.

I think the Santa Rosa case timeline lines up even better with Arthur Lee Allen than the Zodiac case does.

Not willing to say that it is him, but I think that when you take a look at it, that there's a lot of interesting reasons why he has been discussed over these years.

And maybe it's simply because the investigators and detectives and the sheriff,

Don Stripick,

willed it into existence back in the early 70s, but it's still discussed to this day.

Now, the investigators and detectives and sheriffs that took over this case years after

Word,

once Arthur Lee Allen's name came about

as being potential suspect for the Zodiac cases, they openly said, they told the media that Arthur Lee Allen is not their killer.

They didn't give great reason how they or why they believed that he wasn't their killer, but their statement was

it was pretty strong.

Simply saying to the media, Arthur Lee Allen is not the Zodiac.

Arthur Lee Allen is not our killer.

Arthur Lee Allen is nothing but a pedophile.

And

he's neither of these serial killers.

That was their stance on Arthur Lee Allen.

Now, we also need to

keep in mind that Robert Graysmith's book, The Zodiac, Unmasked, while entertaining and a very good book, just like the Truth About Jim documentary documentary and just like the Netflix Arthur Lee Allen documentary.

All three very entertaining.

The two documentaries, very speculative.

Not a lot of hardcore facts and evidence.

Gray Smith's book, there have been details in his book that have been,

that have just been outright debunked, proven to be

wrong, not factual, incorrect.

Did he make them up?

I don't know.

Did he lie?

We don't know.

But it was determined with some of the details on him building his case against Arthur Lee Allen that some of that information just simply wasn't correct.

Captain, this case is endlessly fascinating.

One from the very genesis of the case,

we don't know when it started.

We don't know when this series of murders started, who is responsible, how many people are responsible, but then you have this confluence of killers that all have ties to this area, ties to the time period, and shared similar victimology in many of these cases.

I think that this is a case to me.

The thing I loved about the Truth About Jim

documentary was

not that it sold me that Jim is the killer, more so that I think that

while it didn't examine these cases in great detail, it opened my eyes to this series of murders that have gone unsolved for so long that I wasn't so quite aware of.

I had some awareness of the case, but the documentary made me want to further dig in and have better understanding of these cases, connected or not.

And after reviewing them, it appears to me that some of these, it would be very difficult to say that they're not.

connected some of these cases are absolutely i in my humble garage opinion, connected.

And a reminder: obviously, this case, these homicides are still open,

still an open investigation, and time is running out for these cases.

Anybody that has any information at all, the Sonoma County Sheriff's Office is still investigating.

Please contact their cold case unit.

That phone number is 707-565-2727, or you can reach out as sheriff-coldcase at sonoma-county.org.

I want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage for this four-part series.

Thanks for telling your mother.

Thanks for telling your brother.

It really does go a long way to supporting the show.

So we can continue to do deep dives into these cases.

Until next week, be good, be kind, and all good.