Firebomb 05 | The Gang Rises

Speaker 1 ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

Speaker 2 Just before we start, this episode contains some strong language and descriptions of violence.

Speaker 4 When I was 10 years old, my parents used to ask me to record the news.

Speaker 9 They worked at the restaurant every night and I was at home, so I'd just be watching it by myself or with my brother.

Speaker 14 And the people who firebombed our restaurant, the A ⁇ M, they were finally on trial and in the coverage, I remember it was almost like seeing it for the first time again.

Speaker 17 Jack Van Tongren had set fire to Chinese restaurants in an attempt to drive Asians out of Australia.

Speaker 21 I remember seeing the burnt restaurants, the interviews of my parents, and hearing all about the man that was behind all of this.

Speaker 1 After two days deliberating, the jury returned returned their verdicts late this afternoon.

Speaker 1 Supreme Leader Jack Van Tongren guilty of 53 charges, including conspiracy to harm Asians and drive them out of Western Australia.

Speaker 6 And it was at this point, as a 10-year-old now, that I was, you know, for the first time, actually old enough to start properly understanding the racism and the hate that motivated the attack against us.

Speaker 22 And that understanding, that feeling stayed with with me as I went into high school.

Speaker 19 All these things are just kind of gnawing at me and kind of eats at you. So, you know,

Speaker 13 I almost started believing the worst things that people were saying about me, about Asians, and I started to question whether I was Australian enough.

Speaker 13 I found myself really conscious about my parents speaking Cantonese loudly because I found found that suddenly embarrassing.

Speaker 27 I started dreading going on family holidays because I was worried that people would look at us and presume that we were tourists from overseas.

Speaker 13 And being a smart student would just fulfill another stereotype, so I just slacked off.

Speaker 4 I started chipping away bits of myself,

Speaker 28 and in some ways, they were the best parts of me.

Speaker 19 And then as I got to year 11,

Speaker 30 things went to another level.

Speaker 35 I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians.

Speaker 26 It was 1996 when right-wing politician Pauline Hansen gave her maiden speech to federal parliament.

Speaker 13 And it kind of felt like that was the moment when hostility towards Asian immigrants went mainstream.

Speaker 35 They have their own culture and religion, form ghettos and do not assimilate.

Speaker 35 Of course I will be called racist, but if I can invite who I want into my home, then I should have the right to have a say in who comes into my country.

Speaker 27 I started getting yelled at by random people in the street to go back to my own country, which was simultaneously awful, yet also so fucking stupid.

Speaker 22 I mean, I was born and raised in Perth and Rockingham. I mean, is that where they want me to go?

Speaker 22 And something kind of clicked for me at this point.

Speaker 15 And all of a sudden, I was like, fuck that.

Speaker 20 I'm Australian and Chinese.

Speaker 22 I'm both.

Speaker 39 And in a way, it was only really from then on that I started to fully embrace that fact, to accept who I was.

Speaker 15 I wasn't going to stay quiet anymore.

Speaker 13 So when I got to uni, I studied theatre and film, and I started weaving the A ⁇ M story into some of my work.

Speaker 3 But then in 2002, when I was 22 years old, Jack Van Tongren was released from prison.

Speaker 17 Van Tongren's put on a bit of weight and his jet black hair and moustache of the late 80s have now got streaks of grey. But while his appearance may have changed, his message has not.

Speaker 13 i remember this sense of dread because after 12 long years in prison jack was completely 100

Speaker 17 unrepentant it seems his stint in prison did little to change the political views of the leader of the australian nationalist movement our australian nation deserves a fair bit of game

Speaker 41 i hope that you people will report correctly and see to the welfare of our australian nation

Speaker 41 i am not a terrorist.

Speaker 13 When Jack had been out of prison for about a bit over a year, I was in rehearsals for a play about growing up Chinese in Australia.

Speaker 5 It was a kid show called Hidden Dragons.

Speaker 13 And I had one of the main roles as this Chinese-Australian boy caught between two cultures and trying to find his identity.

Speaker 25 But just a week before opening night,

Speaker 12 Something kind of mind-blowing happened. We were going through our final rehearsals at this inner city theatre studio when news broke.

Speaker 4 Someone had been on a firebombing spree and their targets were Chinese restaurants.

Speaker 45 They smashed the front windows, poured fuel inside and set the light, adding insult to injury, spray-painted swastikas.

Speaker 1 Victims of the weekend fire said news of the racist attacks had already spread to Southeast Asia.

Speaker 46 Almost a decade and a half after my parents' restaurant was set on fire, it was happening again.

Speaker 47 This is Firebomb, the latest season of the ABC's Unravel podcast, episode 5.

Speaker 48 The gang rises.

Speaker 12 So this time my family was lucky.

Speaker 10 The Man Lin wasn't one of the restaurants firebombed, but it's hard to put into words just how weird it was, how eerie and scary it was to see Chinese restaurants being torched again.

Speaker 6 I mean, everything about the attacks was just so similar to what happened to my family.

Speaker 49 Like the way the news of the attacks reached the owners.

Speaker 45 Remember that on Saturday night, about three or four o'clock, people ring me up. They say, oh, your restaurant got attacked by the firebomb.

Speaker 26 Ling Long hopped in her car with her husband and headed straight towards the Chinese restaurant in Yanjib.

Speaker 37 It was the first one to be targeted that night.

Speaker 45 Oh my goodness. We saw some police outside

Speaker 45 in front of the restaurant and we said, oh no, it must be something very bad happened.

Speaker 31 Lin swaps between English and Cantonese as she describes what she saw.

Speaker 3 Lin said the place was a wreck.

Speaker 27 The windows were broken, the air conditioning units were burnt, and the ceiling was black with smoke damage.

Speaker 45 The whole dining hall was black.

Speaker 13 And on the news, there were these close-up shots of a spray-painted swastika right on the restaurant's front wall.

Speaker 45 The whole Chinese community was scared.

Speaker 45 Why people do things like this? Why did they light up my restaurant? I did nothing wrong to them. I didn't do anything to other people.
I mean, why they do this to us?

Speaker 12 I mean, with swastikas appearing on firebombed restaurants and Jack Van Tongren appearing on the news again, I mean,

Speaker 22 I remember this feeling of disbelief, like,

Speaker 22 he's at it again. You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Speaker 51 But it was 2004.

Speaker 22 And some things had changed since the last firebombing campaign.

Speaker 6 This time, the Chinese community got really active.

Speaker 22 Politicians condemned the attacks, police sprang into action straight away, and in what seemed like no time at all, the firebombers were caught.

Speaker 51 And when I saw the names, it wasn't who I expected at all.

Speaker 1 18-year-old Joshua Benjamin McDonald, 19-year-old Jonathan Christopher Aimsbury, and two other people decided after a heavy drinking session to set three Chinese restaurants alight.

Speaker 10 It wasn't Jack or the A ⁇ M.

Speaker 1 Today McDonald was sentenced to 30 months jail while Ainsbury received a term of 26 months. They said they regretted causing concern to the community and denied being racist.

Speaker 49 But what was clear is that Jack's release from prison had restarted the spread of his toxic ideas.

Speaker 43 Police had found his propaganda in one of the firebombers' bedrooms.

Speaker 1 The court heard police found pamphlets from the Australian nationalist movement. The teenager claimed he hadn't read the material.

Speaker 36 And even though police had made arrests and locked up the offenders, somehow the spate of racist attacks continued.

Speaker 17 The offenders struck under the cover of darkness. In three separate attacks, racist and offensive slogans were plastered over shops, windows, and bus stops.

Speaker 17 Swastikas covered nearly every building and shop front. However, the owners say the threats won't drive them out of business.

Speaker 17 At each of the crime scenes, pamphlets and posters promoting the Australian nationalist movement were scattered.

Speaker 13 And it was around this time that another of Van Tongren's posters appeared on the doors of the Man Lynn.

Speaker 19 And I had this little flashback to when I seen them on the bus stop in front of the restaurant as a little kid.

Speaker 22 It felt like we were being sent a message that the AM was back.

Speaker 18 We've established that Mr. Van Tongren is almost certainly a person of interest and he will be spoken to as will a number of other people to further the inquiries.

Speaker 6 The police weren't going to wait until Jack slipped up.

Speaker 22 They started actively monitoring him and they discovered that Jack had actually teamed up with his old mate John Van Blitiswick again and they started recruiting followers.

Speaker 24 And then they found out something completely unbelievable.

Speaker 13 but also somehow unsurprising. Jack was planning to firebomb restaurants again.

Speaker 24 And he had three targets lined up and one of them was my family's restaurant, the Man Lin.

Speaker 48 16 years after he had done it the first time, Jack wanted to destroy our livelihood again.

Speaker 55 But this time the police got to Jack Van Tongren before he got to us.

Speaker 56 Jack Van Tongren was taken into custody last Friday when police charged him with conspiring to carry out arson attacks on four Asian restaurants.

Speaker 11 He'd been out of jail for less than two years and now Jack was again behind bars.

Speaker 56 He was also charged with 19 counts of criminal damage.

Speaker 15 Then, as if this whole story wasn't already wild enough, in early 2006, things took a totally ridiculous turn when Jack Van Tongeren was released on bail and promptly did a runner.

Speaker 1 A nationwide hunt for Jack Van Tongeren was launched last Friday after police belatedly discovered he had failed to meet the daily reporting conditions of his bail.

Speaker 55 He had fled with one of his followers, a guy called Matthew Billing.

Speaker 1 Anyone with information about the pair is asked to contact police.

Speaker 28 It took six weeks, but somebody did contact WA police.

Speaker 36 They said they'd seen Jack and another person in a small country town, driving around at night, trying not to be seen.

Speaker 19 Dario Bozzonella was in charge of the WA police investigations team given the job of tracking Jack down.

Speaker 55 He told the local cops he was on the way.

Speaker 57 We're coming down this afternoon, we're coming down now. And sure enough, a Pajero turned up with two guys wearing wigs and beanies.
One of them had the old school black rimmed reading glasses on.

Speaker 57 And as they got out of the car, we arrested him.

Speaker 1 Jack Van Tongeren was back in custody last night after being confronted at a house in Boddington where heavily armed police were waiting.

Speaker 1 The fugitive pair gave up without a fight after six weeks on the run, possibly hiding out in bush camps.

Speaker 1 Officers seized three high-powered firearms and ammunition during the arrest, which were allegedly found in this four-wheel drive.

Speaker 12 For the third time, Jack Van Tongren had been caught and was again behind bars.

Speaker 15 But when he was sentenced, Something crazy happened.

Speaker 57 He basically got released on an undertaking that he would leave WA.

Speaker 19 Dario Bozzonella is now a commander in the WA police force.

Speaker 5 He was involved in the operation to arrest Jack, but he wasn't involved in the decision about what charges to lay or in the court case.

Speaker 6 Even he seems kind of surprised by how it turned out.

Speaker 57 It was quite interesting because we were looking at it going, well, how do we enforce that?

Speaker 53 We can't, right? You know what I mean?

Speaker 57 Like, that's just, that's just him telling the judge, I'm leaving. And the judge goes, okay, see you later.

Speaker 51 Of all the things about this story that blow my mind this one nearly takes the cake Jack Van Tongren had been busted planning a second terrorism campaign against Chinese restaurants including my family's but when he gets caught and locked up somehow he gets bail he then skips bail and when police catch up with him six weeks later he's found with firearms some of which had been illegally modified and then when he finally gets sentenced, he gets set free.

Speaker 57 We were a bit suspicious that the judge felt sorry for him because he'd passed out in court at the previous appearance.

Speaker 22 Jack had fainted in court and he'd been taken to hospital for a short stay.

Speaker 37 His lawyer told the court that Jack had retired from all his previous activities.

Speaker 22 But Jack's lack of remorse or regret wasn't discussed in the sentencing hearing.

Speaker 57 And I think the judge thought, oh, this is a frail old man that he's not in good health and he's seen the errors of his ways and he's generally going to leave and put everything behind him.

Speaker 57 And I think that's what happened.

Speaker 20 But Jack was only facing relatively minor charges like criminal damage and conspiracy to commit arson.

Speaker 15 So if you take into account the time he had already served, this sentence isn't that out of the ordinary.

Speaker 15 If he could have been kept in jail for longer, it might have only been for months rather than years.

Speaker 20 So maybe the bigger questions here are for the WA police.

Speaker 8 Because by 2004, there were other additional charges that Jack could have been hit with.

Speaker 15 I mean, for starters, there was this incitement to a racial hatred bill brought in specifically to combat the very racist posters like the ones Jack and the gang put up.

Speaker 10 But more importantly, there was a whole suite of incredibly broad counter-terrorism laws that were brought brought in after the World Trade Center attacks in 2001.

Speaker 52 I do think police should have charged him with terrorism conspiracy. I think, at the very least, it should have been the first charge that was

Speaker 52 put against him.

Speaker 6 I showed the judge's sentencing remarks to Rita Jabri Markwell.

Speaker 13 She's a lawyer, an academic, and an advocate.

Speaker 39 And she spent the past few years looking at terrorism cases in

Speaker 52 The facts of it are pretty compelling. I wouldn't say that these are a weak set of facts to be testing the law on.

Speaker 59 So it's been put to me that occasionally, when laws are new,

Speaker 59 police and prosecutors are hesitant to be the first cabs off the rank.

Speaker 59 And it means that sometimes cases that could be tried under the new laws might get tried under the old regime until a new trend is developed.

Speaker 52 And that line has been run for the last 20 years that

Speaker 52 we're not sure whether we can extend this law to apply to racist nationalists.

Speaker 52 And that's not good enough.

Speaker 15 For laws against preparing to commit a terrorist act are pretty broad, but it's not until recent years that they've been used to convict a right-wing extremist.

Speaker 52 The law says an act intended to advance an ideological political or religious cause. Racist nationalism is an ideology.
It was politically motivated.

Speaker 52 It's not good enough to say that where we're afraid that we may fail.

Speaker 52 If it fails, then the law is no good. And then the law needs to be changed.

Speaker 52 And I think the fact that we have 20 years of police saying this is an indication that they're either unwilling to apply terrorism laws to racist nationalists or there is a problem with the law that no one wants to talk about.

Speaker 58 We sent questions to the WA police and the sentencing judge, but they declined to provide a response for publication.

Speaker 12 After everything that happened, it's like Jack Van Tongren was able to just melt away.

Speaker 13 The way this whole decades-long saga ended, It makes me wonder if this country learned anything from it at all.

Speaker 13 It feels unfinished.

Speaker 32 Like, what happened to Jack? Where did he go next? And what happened to all the people who followed him?

Speaker 27 I want to know what they're doing now.

Speaker 37 And I want to know what they'd say to me face to face if I was standing right there in front of them.

Speaker 34 It's just clicked over to 5:32 a.m.

Speaker 7 The

Speaker 60 sun is not yet up here in Perth.

Speaker 60 Morning, mate.

Speaker 44 How are you going?

Speaker 7 You're good?

Speaker 40 I'm with my co-reporter, Alex Mann, and we're about to do something that could backfire.

Speaker 13 A teenager sneaking out of my parents' house in the dead of night.

Speaker 13 Alex is actually a bit of an expert when it comes to reporting on white supremacy and right-wing extremism.

Speaker 28 As an investigative journalist, he's uncovered secret plots, spoken to infiltrators, insiders and recruiters, as well as confronted senior members of some of the most active groups around at the moment.

Speaker 26 It's actually the whole reason why we're working together on this project.

Speaker 13 And I'm really grateful he's with me for this next step.

Speaker 55 Because we're going to see a guy called Ben Verheim.

Speaker 36 So what do you actually know about this guy that we're going to see?

Speaker 36 Benjamin Verheim is this former follower of Jack's neo-Nazi group, the Australian Nationalist Movement.

Speaker 36 And he was convicted for being a getaway driver for one of the groups that was involved in a poster graffiti campaign.

Speaker 60 Yeah, so this guy started following Jack in the early 2000s, which is sort of after he got out of jail the first time.

Speaker 60 I ran his name past a contact of mine, and they've sent me a bunch of his online posts from that period. We're talking anti-Asian, anti-Muslim, anti-Jew kind of content.

Speaker 60 Some of it's really, really full-on.

Speaker 60 And he was posting this stuff a couple of years after he was convicted as well as before. And

Speaker 60 I guess in terms of what we've got to look out for today, in my experience,

Speaker 60 it's actually often pretty hard to figure out when these guys genuinely change, right?

Speaker 36 Like if they do at all.

Speaker 60 And just having a bit of a poke around, this guy seems to be the real deal. He doesn't seem to believe any of that stuff anymore, but I guess either way, we're going to probably find out today.

Speaker 19 Ben Verheim has agreed to do an interview of us on just one condition.

Speaker 13 And this is also when things get a little bit interesting because before we do the interview, he's insisting that we participate in a kind of men's health retreat that he's hosting.

Speaker 19 And he's even given us a list of stuff to bring.

Speaker 19 So, definitely some

Speaker 36 bordies, some togs.

Speaker 36 Okay, I've got those. Got those.

Speaker 30 He's asked us to bring something that we're comfortable moving

Speaker 10 in yoga clothes.

Speaker 36 He mentioned, want it something that light or white.

Speaker 13 He said it sounded a bit cultish, but that's just the kind of vibe he's going for.

Speaker 36 Can I just ask, like, how you feel about doing this?

Speaker 36 I didn't sleep very well last night.

Speaker 6 I couldn't stop.

Speaker 30 kind of thinking about where we've gone with this research we've done so far and this is the closest that we've gone to somebody who kind of

Speaker 36 was in the circle with jack

Speaker 36 but it's been a bit nerve-wracking actually you know we're going three hours down south to a farm that we couldn't even see on google street view actually because the car didn't even go down that street So we don't even know how the front of the place looks like.

Speaker 30 I'm genuinely interested to hear what he has to say and to be face to face with someone who has been with that group.

Speaker 30 Alright let's do it.

Speaker 13 So we head south for this pretty long drive towards a place called Bridgetown and when we get there we keep going a little bit further and soon we're on this windy single lane country back road.

Speaker 13 It's hilly and there's sheep in the paddocks and then we turn up this long driveway and we pull up in front of this beautiful old farmhouse.

Speaker 54 This house is owned by a friend of Ben's and out the front there's a group of about 10 to 15 guys who are standing around getting to know each other.

Speaker 33 A few guys are pouring bags of ice into this industrial sized chess freezer and there at the front, easily recognizable in his white white flowing clothes is the guy that we've come to see Ben Verheim.

Speaker 18 I guess I should

Speaker 62 welcome all of you

Speaker 63 so welcome everybody.

Speaker 14 Ben's this tall fit looking tanned guy.

Speaker 31 He's got a small reddish beard a white bandana and he's wearing a white sarong around his waist.

Speaker 34 He's got no shirt so I can see what looks like Nordic style tattoos on his chest.

Speaker 27 I have got no idea what the people here know about his past as a follower of a new Nazi group.

Speaker 43 One of Ben's helpers uses a cigarette lighter to set fire to a small bundle of dried herbs.

Speaker 63 With some sage and some rosemary.

Speaker 19 He begins waving the smoking torch around us.

Speaker 11 It feels bizarre, like this is not what I had in mind when I set out to get face to face with Van Tongren's ex-followers.

Speaker 12 There's no backing out now. now.

Speaker 13 Ben pulls out this shallow drum and he starts playing to mark the beginning of the day's activities.

Speaker 63 I'm just going to drum over you just gently, just to allow the sound vibration to help you to ease into the next few hours.

Speaker 21 Ben asks us all to close our eyes and so I do.

Speaker 55 It'll be a while before Alex and I can sit down and interview him and before that happens, Ben wants us to participate in whatever he's got planned.

Speaker 6 For now, I guess we're both just kind of going along for the ride.

Speaker 63 Keeping his eyes closed.

Speaker 63 Staying where you are.

Speaker 42 First stop is by a dam to do some low-key yoga under a tree.

Speaker 63 And taking a seat on your yoga mat in a cross-legged, easy-pose position.

Speaker 40 We do a short meditation

Speaker 11 and then Ben starts singing a song.

Speaker 7 You know, your will to be free

Speaker 63 is matched with love secretly

Speaker 11 and when it ends, we get up, we're moving again,

Speaker 38 and we're chanting

Speaker 7 hard,

Speaker 7 hard,

Speaker 7 hard,

Speaker 14 Then all of a sudden, things kind of escalate, and we're screaming into each other's faces.

Speaker 64 Breathe in that deepest hurt you've ever felt and scream it out.

Speaker 64 Turn to your partner next to you, brother next to you.

Speaker 18 Face each other. Face each other.

Speaker 18 Good.

Speaker 54 Safe to say, the day so far has been one of the strangest experiences I've ever had.

Speaker 40 And we haven't even spoken about neo-Nazis yet.

Speaker 19 As we walk up the hill back towards the house, it becomes clear what the next activity is.

Speaker 31 It's ice bath time.

Speaker 58 Alex steps into his huge ice chest first.

Speaker 58 Catch that breath, catch that breath.

Speaker 61 Slow it down.

Speaker 31 And he spends two minutes completely submerged up to his chin in water.

Speaker 13 That's not far off zero degrees before stepping back out again.

Speaker 7 It's extremely cold.

Speaker 7 I feel like I might never see my testicles again.

Speaker 31 Next, it's my turn.

Speaker 44 How you feeling?

Speaker 44 Surprisingly good.

Speaker 63 But yeah,

Speaker 16 you just breathe.

Speaker 7 You have to just breathe through it.

Speaker 13 That's the coldest thing I've ever been in.

Speaker 7 I can't tell if it's cold or it's hot.

Speaker 13 Then we head inside for a 30-minute guided sound meditation.

Speaker 12 And then it's time for what Ben Verheim has been calling the sharing circle.

Speaker 63 This is you're welcome to share anything that's been coming up for you. I think it's really important

Speaker 63 for us to be able to share amongst each other because we can have these different perspectives of things when we

Speaker 63 hear

Speaker 63 other stories.

Speaker 20 Alex and I share a quick look and we focus on Ben at the front of the room.

Speaker 63 So thank you for coming. If

Speaker 62 I'd like to go around the circle.

Speaker 16 Ben passes a stick to the person on his left.

Speaker 22 When each person finishes talking, they'll pass the stick on.

Speaker 63 Introduce yourself with your name.

Speaker 16 The air is hazy with incense.

Speaker 65 Come from a lived experience of

Speaker 65 what was worded to me as disability all through my life.

Speaker 13 The men share stories of their traumas and how they're dealing with it.

Speaker 6 And they've been really brutally honest about this really personal stuff in front of a bunch of people they've only just met,

Speaker 15 which is just incredible.

Speaker 31 Alex is just sitting off to my side.

Speaker 7 I knew that there was going to be

Speaker 7 this

Speaker 7 sharing circle, but now I'm actually a bit

Speaker 7 apprehensive about

Speaker 7 Crispian because I don't know what he's going to say

Speaker 7 about his reason for being here because to do it he's gonna have to basically out Ben to this whole group of people.

Speaker 7 So I don't know how this is gonna play out. There's about one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

Speaker 7 nine people

Speaker 7 that have gotta share their story before it gets to crispy.

Speaker 65 Yeah, I've recently been diagnosed with prostate cancer

Speaker 65 and um it's just part of what's causing anxiety.

Speaker 7 There's three people now.

Speaker 58 Trying to turn things around but I've got a good woman down in a new town and life's going forward so

Speaker 63 used to that.

Speaker 7 Thank you very much.

Speaker 7 It was great down there.

Speaker 50 Hi I'm Christian.

Speaker 50 I'd like to thank Ben for inviting me to come and join and be a part of this.

Speaker 50 I was born in I was born here in Australia, but I'm actually Chinese. Parents from Hong Kong and

Speaker 50 I guess I've grown up kind of being in this kind of place where

Speaker 50 I've never really felt like I knew where I belong.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 50 we'll talk about this more with

Speaker 50 Ben, but

Speaker 20 in the 80s,

Speaker 50 my parents' restaurant was firebombed during the period of the Australian Nationalist Movement, which was a group that...

Speaker 50 a new announcement group that was

Speaker 50 firebombed Chinese restaurants. I was eight years old at the time and it's something that I have kind of been my memory has lived with me for a part and Ben has a part to play in that and so

Speaker 50 I mean I'll leave maybe Ben for you to talk about that more from your side.

Speaker 63 Good to share once it gets to me.

Speaker 50 Yeah but I'm here to listen, I'm here to connect and I'm here to be present and yeah.

Speaker 6 I hadn't really planned it this way. In fact, Ben did mention the sharing circle, but I wasn't expecting us to share in it.

Speaker 20 So when this happened, I just had to say what I could and be honest.

Speaker 4 And I guess in the process, I outed Ben in front of all these guys.

Speaker 20 And I was like, freaking out.

Speaker 23 I mean, what was going to happen next?

Speaker 63 Thank you, everybody.

Speaker 63 It's really disarming to see

Speaker 63 a

Speaker 63 group of men coming from all different different walks of life

Speaker 63 showing that vulnerability.

Speaker 36 Ben starts by describing his teenage years, having behavioural problems and feeling isolated.

Speaker 63 I had anxiety because I felt like I didn't belong.

Speaker 63 And this is where

Speaker 63 we have a commonality here, Crispian.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 63 I would have these negative attention seeking behaviors because it would then get the attention of my parents and of other people or whoever

Speaker 63 and I would feel

Speaker 65 like I was

Speaker 63 being paid attention to.

Speaker 22 His mum was diagnosed with cancer and his dad had a big drinking problem and they separated when he was in high school.

Speaker 20 He dropped out of school in year nine and was going to raves at 15 and started taking drugs and partying hard.

Speaker 25 A few years later, both his parents died within a year of each other: his mum from cancer and his dad from the drink.

Speaker 63 And after my parents had passed away, I descended further into alcoholism and drug abuse.

Speaker 63 I'd had a daughter

Speaker 63 with

Speaker 63 someone I was seeing,

Speaker 63 and

Speaker 63 that had happened shortly before my parents had passed away, and I was in no state to look after myself or anybody else

Speaker 62 and the level of shame

Speaker 10 and guilt and remorse

Speaker 62 that I had

Speaker 62 to look my daughter in the eye, little

Speaker 7 bravi girl

Speaker 62 to feel like I was this utter piece of shit

Speaker 62 I had no concept

Speaker 7 of

Speaker 63 looking after a child.

Speaker 63 I wanted to die.

Speaker 63 I became

Speaker 63 angry at the world.

Speaker 63 Angry.

Speaker 63 Frustrated, confused.

Speaker 63 I needed a target. I needed,

Speaker 63 you know, anyone in that situation needs something to project onto.

Speaker 63 And that came in the form of racism.

Speaker 63 And I became involved with this organisation

Speaker 63 called the Australian Nationalist Movement.

Speaker 20 I'm sort of surprised that he's admitting to it

Speaker 50 here in front of everyone.

Speaker 62 I knew it was wrong. I knew it was wrong to be doing it.

Speaker 63 And yeah, then one night

Speaker 63 what took place was a spree of graffiti and just senseless damage to property.

Speaker 22 What Ben is doing is brave, but the words he's using are sort of detached.

Speaker 58 Like he's not saying, I did this.

Speaker 39 He's sort of saying this bad stuff got done.

Speaker 63 Sites were graffitied and

Speaker 63 posters were put up and it became

Speaker 63 a big issue in the media and politically as well.

Speaker 63 That's why Crispian is here today and that's why

Speaker 63 I've agreed, I felt enough time had passed and initially when I was asked about the interview I was very apprehensive and then I was like, okay, no, let's do this

Speaker 63 because

Speaker 63 I want people to understand that there is a collective healing that needs to take place on this planet

Speaker 63 and that we are one of the same.

Speaker 19 You know, on one level it makes sense that Ben's troubled childhood led him to lashing out.

Speaker 27 But what I want to know is why lash out in this way at the expense of another community?

Speaker 42 There's a lot of people out there who've had tough lives, tougher even than Ben's.

Speaker 24 And they haven't ended up working with a neo-Nazi group.

Speaker 19 So what did Jack Van Tongren say or do to make it seem like following him was the answer?

Speaker 33 When we sit down, Alex and I are going to ask Ben about that.

Speaker 7 Thank you, Ben,

Speaker 65 for having us.

Speaker 63 Thank you, yeah.

Speaker 63 It was a nice way to

Speaker 4 break the ice, yeah, to open things.

Speaker 21 So we pick up Ben's story when he was in his early 20s.

Speaker 13 It's around 2002 and Jack Van Tongren had just been released from prison for the first time after serving the sentence for the firebombing attacks in the 80s.

Speaker 16 Ben's sitting on the couch in this dodgy share house in Northbridge.

Speaker 63 And there was a news report that came on about Jack

Speaker 63 and about the things that had taken place with the A ⁇ M back in the 80s. And

Speaker 63 yeah, I remember watching

Speaker 63 that news report and

Speaker 63 yeah, thinking I thought it would be the perfect way that I could be able to

Speaker 63 express my anger and the frustration that I was feeling. And then I wrote him a letter after that.

Speaker 50 I mean, he fired bomb those restaurants, including my parents' restaurants in the 80s.

Speaker 16 It was racism.

Speaker 9 I mean, that's what his ideology was.

Speaker 25 Why did that particular ideology seem to be the platform that you want to base your anger on?

Speaker 50 Where Where did that particularly come from? Was it a reason why?

Speaker 63 I wanted to feel a part of something. I wanted to

Speaker 63 express

Speaker 63 what I was feeling in whatever way that I could.

Speaker 63 And

Speaker 63 the appealing thing was about it was that, well,

Speaker 63 there was harm being caused.

Speaker 63 There was harm being caused, and it was attracting this attention

Speaker 63 and I could be a part of that.

Speaker 13 Jack Van Tongren hadn't been out of prison for long when he got the letter from Ben.

Speaker 62 And he called me

Speaker 63 and then

Speaker 63 he said he was going to

Speaker 63 send over someone to meet me at my house.

Speaker 50 Could you describe that first time that you met Jack Van Tongren?

Speaker 63 I was quite surprised the first time I met him because

Speaker 63 he was softly spoken and

Speaker 63 didn't seem intimidating

Speaker 63 and didn't

Speaker 63 to me didn't pose a risk physically or in his mannerisms or he was softly spoken he appeared to to me as educated

Speaker 63 He was

Speaker 63 charismatic in a in a way. He had it like a brand.
He was wearing khakis and like the big army boots, like the 16-hole boots. And I actually do remember it was summer and it was hot.

Speaker 63 There was me in probably a tank top and shorts. And I thought, well, that's dedication.

Speaker 50 Ben told Jack that he liked the posters he'd been seeing around town and that he could be useful to Jack's neo-Nazi group.

Speaker 63 I mentioned that I was

Speaker 63 experienced in video editing

Speaker 63 and that I could create content, videos, that could

Speaker 63 interest people, like recruit people.

Speaker 63 And that's the start of it and that's what I said I wanted to do.

Speaker 36 Pretty soon Ben was helping with the A ⁇ M's poster runs too.

Speaker 63 I I would drive the vehicle and I would help, you know, load the posters into

Speaker 63 the car and

Speaker 7 the glue

Speaker 63 that was used to stick them up.

Speaker 25 Over two nights in July 2004, Ben and two other guys hit nine different spots.

Speaker 19 The guys put up A ⁇ M posters and sprayed swastikas on the synagogue, a kosher food center, bus stops and a police station.

Speaker 49 Ben says he may have put up posters but he was mostly just a driver and he never did graffiti.

Speaker 63 Because I knew that would have a much worse negative blowback

Speaker 63 on to, well, the organisation and myself.

Speaker 3 My parents' restaurant was also targeted with AM posters at this time.

Speaker 27 But that isn't one of the things on the list that Ben and the other guys got done for in court.

Speaker 54 And I'm kind of wondering about that as I'm sitting here talking to him.

Speaker 50 I have a recollection of my parents' restaurant having those posters posted on the door in that period. I don't know if you remembered hitting any Chinese restaurants during that period on your runs.

Speaker 63 Okay.

Speaker 7 If...

Speaker 20 You might remember it in the Man Lin Chinese Restaurant.

Speaker 16 It was on Manning Road.

Speaker 22 I'm just wondering whether you remembered...

Speaker 63 Manning Road.

Speaker 20 If that was one of the ones that you hit.

Speaker 63 I think it actually was. Yeah,

Speaker 63 because I remember we...

Speaker 7 I remember I

Speaker 63 was

Speaker 63 driving

Speaker 63 a Ute. It was a work ute.

Speaker 63 Yeah, I do remember that. And I'm sorry.

Speaker 7 It's all good. Yeah.

Speaker 63 Yeah, I do remember that now.

Speaker 22 I don't know why I said it's all good.

Speaker 10 I mean, it's not all good.

Speaker 15 And sorry wasn't what I was looking for anyway.

Speaker 5 Ben was arrested for what he did and he got a suspended sentence.

Speaker 22 But it didn't mark an immediate end to his racism.

Speaker 58 He was really active online for years afterwards, and some of the stuff he posted back then is really nasty.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 10 there are

Speaker 60 something like reportedly 800 messages

Speaker 61 against Asians, Jews, Muslims.

Speaker 61 There's even a quote here, if you don't mind, says, the more the white youth of Australia stand up and show them their true feelings towards the invaders, the better.

Speaker 63 Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 63 It's not something I'm proud of. You know, those behaviours that are going to impact other people negatively and send ripples out through communities

Speaker 63 and on in that sense you know I wish to sincerely apologize

Speaker 7 you know

Speaker 63 firstly to to Crispian you know firstly to you and and your your family

Speaker 63 and extended family and anyone who

Speaker 63 You know who even just used to like coming in and getting a spring roll from your restaurant and they couldn't because it was closed one day.

Speaker 63 Yeah, I would like to apologise for

Speaker 63 any

Speaker 63 discomfort or questioning of one's own identity that may have arisen from

Speaker 63 what took place.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 yeah,

Speaker 63 I think that's

Speaker 63 that's really really all I would like to say.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 23 I hope I've heard you. Yeah.

Speaker 50 I've heard you.

Speaker 25 How does it feel for you to

Speaker 16 have someone facing you to say sorry

Speaker 7 about

Speaker 25 your past?

Speaker 7 Um

Speaker 7 feels good.

Speaker 7 It feels good.

Speaker 15 I asked Ben when he and Jack last spoke, and he said not since they all got busted.

Speaker 22 As far as Alex and I can tell, Ben's left Jack Van Tongren, the A ⁇ M, and the racism behind him.

Speaker 19 Ben's hard life doesn't excuse what he did.

Speaker 19 But

Speaker 8 amidst all the ugliness, there is

Speaker 14 this moment.

Speaker 28 At least Ben is sitting here in front of me confronting this stuff and trying to make up for it in some way.

Speaker 36 And I appreciate the fact that he's trying to be better and he's running workshops to help other men avoid the mistakes that he made.

Speaker 11 But the man who recruited Ben?

Speaker 36 The man who started all of this?

Speaker 46 He's never apologised or even expressed regret.

Speaker 8 As far as I know, Jack Van Tongren holds the same extreme views to this day.

Speaker 36 And now, I want to find him.

Speaker 36 Hi, this is Jack Stone.

Speaker 7 Please leave a message, your name and number.

Speaker 44 Do you know where he lives?

Speaker 57 He sends me a Christmas card every year. From what I can gather, he's a good way out of town.

Speaker 7 We just want to know: like, is it safe to go out to this property?

Speaker 44 We're on the corner.

Speaker 42 This is it.

Speaker 7 This looks like bush.

Speaker 44 Hobbits haunt.

Speaker 44 What the?

Speaker 7 I wasn't expecting that.

Speaker 44 I wasn't expecting that either.

Speaker 27 This series is hosted and reported by me, Crispian Chan and Alex Mann.

Speaker 26 We've been making this podcast on Garaguland and Wutjagnuna Land.

Speaker 54 Our producer and researcher is Dunya Karagic.

Speaker 13 Research and fact checking by Johnny Liu. Our theme and music composition is by Martin Perolta.
Sound design and additional music by Simon Branthwaite.

Speaker 27 The commissioning editor was Alice Brennan.

Speaker 54 And our executive producer is Tim Broxbro.

Speaker 13 To make sure you're the first to get the next episodes, follow the Unravel podcast. You can find it on the ABC Listen app.

Speaker 42 If you're looking for other great podcasts, I can suggest checking out one of ABC RN's most popular podcasts, All in the Mind.

Speaker 25 It's a show all about how we think, feel, and behave.

Speaker 48 It covers everything from performance psychology and how top athletes think, to how the brain makes sense of music, to what bipolar disorder feels like.

Speaker 22 It's a show about the joy, pain, and struggle of being human.

Speaker 40 Just search for the All in the Mind podcast.

Speaker 13 Find it on the ABC Listen app.