The Vanishing Point: Episode 4, Off the Highway

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Speaker 8 The vanishing point,

Speaker 4 the last known location.

Speaker 8 It's an investigative priority in any missing person's case.

Speaker 6 But sometimes, logistically getting there, is easier said than done.

Speaker 8 The terrain of the Hoopa Reservation and the surrounding area is remote and sometimes treacherous.

Speaker 8 And as we learned in the last episode, in the case of Sumi Wan, sometimes there can be challenges in pinning down someone's exact location, especially when so much time has passed.

Speaker 4 But when the location is clear, it oftentimes holds the answers to what really happened.

Speaker 17 In March of 2020, a woodcutter went to work just off Deerhorn Road in Hoopa.

Speaker 17 After a few days without word from him, his family became concerned. Soon after the announcement of his disappearance, his daughter received a text message from an anonymous number.

Speaker 17 The sender demanded a cash ransom in exchange for her father. We have a screenshot of those messages.
The first was sent in all caps.

Speaker 18 Texted you more than 10 hours and you're just responding now? Are you not even taking this seriously? Do you think I'm here for all this rubbish?

Speaker 18 I swear on my life, if you ever provoke me, I will him and drop his lifeless body off the road.

Speaker 17 These texts were then followed by this message, in all lowercase.

Speaker 18 Sending you a proof is as easy as anything. You also need to know he is a bit sick right now.
He has also refused to eat.

Speaker 18 You have to do this real fast so I can have him dropped off at the nearest gas station for you.

Speaker 17 We've talked a lot about the epidemic of missing and murdered Indigenous women, but it's not just women who go missing here.

Speaker 17 These texts were regarding Virgil Bussell Jr., a member of the Hoopa Valley tribe.

Speaker 17 And that's our next case.

Speaker 17 I'm Celicia Stanton, and this is Up and Vanished presents the vanishing point.

Speaker 20 Do you guys want to go ahead and go into that other room right there with the table and stuff next?

Speaker 21 Great.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 17 Our team is in the MMIP office in Hoopa, where they're set to meet their next interviewee.

Speaker 23 I've always felt his pain if he got hurt or something.

Speaker 23 One time and he got a car wreck and he broke his leg and the next morning I couldn't walk on my leg.

Speaker 17 This is Verna, the twin sister of 52-year-old Virgil Bussell Jr.

Speaker 17 Virgil went missing in March of 2020.

Speaker 23 Growing up with him,

Speaker 23 we were inseparable. Now it's like way different

Speaker 23 because he's not here.

Speaker 17 When talking about her twin brother, you can sense that Verna still very much feels a profound connection to him. It's clear that his absence has left a huge void in her life.

Speaker 17 Recalling their final communications, she said that her worries first started when she hadn't heard from him in over two weeks.

Speaker 23 Knew that something had happened because he usually stops by. And so I made a post on Facebook.

Speaker 23 Has anybody seen or heard from my brother? It's been two and a half weeks since I've seen him.

Speaker 17 Shortly thereafter, Virgil's truck was discovered in the woods. But Virgil himself was nowhere to be found.

Speaker 23 And then my niece, she replied to my post and said that she was cutting wood with her dad and they seen his truck up at Deerhorn.

Speaker 23 There was a load of wood in the back of his truck that it was just being tossed and round, and my brother doesn't load his truck like that.

Speaker 23 He loaded his truck with wood that was cut and stacked from the front to the back, and that's how I know that it wasn't him who loaded the truck.

Speaker 17 Virgil ran his own woodcutting business and used his flatbed truck regularly for work.

Speaker 17 It was something that Verna tells us her brother usually did on his own.

Speaker 17 Beyond the discovery of the truck truck and the piles of wood tossed in the bed, there were a few other suspicious discoveries. Virgil's keys and jacket were found inside the vehicle.

Speaker 17 The windows were left rolled down, and his chainsaw was nowhere to be found.

Speaker 23 It was nighttime when we located the truck, and

Speaker 23 I used someone's phone to call tribal security for search and rescue. Humble County Sheriff's department went down, but there wasn't really no investigation as far as I know.
If they really

Speaker 23 investigated everything, they would have found something.

Speaker 17 On April 9th, 2020, Humboldt County Sheriff's Department, in partnership with the Special Services Unit, Search and Rescue Team, and Volunteer Fire Department, conducted a two-day ground search in the area that the truck was discovered.

Speaker 17 They also conducted a canine search. Neither would yield results.

Speaker 17 While the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office has not ruled out foul play and Virgil's disappearance, locals are confident that evidence near Virgil's truck confirms it.

Speaker 23 They said that one of the places where my brother was cutting wood, you can tell that there was a struggle and that they drugged a body.

Speaker 23 There's a trail that led right down to this person's house. I know that there had to have been more than one person.

Speaker 23 My brother was pretty strong and he was pretty smart, and they either got him when he was asleep or they might

Speaker 23 caught him once his hands all running.

Speaker 17 An independent news outlet, Redheaded Black Belt, which focuses on stories in and around Humboldt County, also corroborated speculation that a body was dragged into a wooded area.

Speaker 17 They reported that the family is collaborating with an MMIP activist, Jesse Armstrong.

Speaker 1 Quote,

Speaker 2 Armstrong recruited Kavern Hodgin, a Northern California tracker who has helped families find loved ones, to analyze the site where the truck disappeared.

Speaker 2 According to Armstrong, Hodgin saw signs of a physical struggle near the grove where Bussell was believed to have been felling trees and parallel drag marks from there indicating a body was dragged.

Speaker 2 The tracker reports being able to track the drag marks to the home of a person the family considers a suspect. Based on these findings, Bussell's family is fearing the worst.

Speaker 23 It's been three years now since he's been gone.

Speaker 19 What do you think happened to him?

Speaker 23 I believe that he got his head shot off.

Speaker 23 I heard it was over a girl. They supposedly cut him up and put him in a wood chipper.
Well, I hope that's not true.

Speaker 17 What Verna says is that she heard that incident happened over a girl and that he was cut up and put in a wood chipper.

Speaker 17 This is not. the first time the team's heard this.

Speaker 25 Wood Virgil? Oh, Virgil Bustle? Mm-hmm.

Speaker 17 That's Frank Subert, the man that we spoke to at the end of the road regarding Emily Risling's disappearance.

Speaker 1 Oh man, I've heard a lot of stories.

Speaker 25 I heard he was put inside of a tripper spread out all over.

Speaker 27 Why would someone want to hurt Virgil?

Speaker 18 I don't know.

Speaker 25 Virgil is a pretty tough fella.

Speaker 25 So you'd have to catch him by surprise.

Speaker 25 So this person or this being or whatever that made him disappear is pretty

Speaker 28 strange.

Speaker 17 Aside from just small-town talk, Virgil's family started receiving real tips.

Speaker 23 There was an anonymous phone call here.

Speaker 17 The anonymous caller claimed that Virgil's body could be located between a set of mile markers off the highway. The police looked into it, and they did find a body, but it wasn't Virgil's.

Speaker 29 Do you feel like you were in danger at all? Or or if family members are in danger?

Speaker 23 Yes, I do believe in the beginning it was really, really

Speaker 23 felt unsafe and I kind of still do because the one that

Speaker 23 supposedly cleaned up the medicine did something with my brother's body,

Speaker 23 she still stopped by this place where I stayed.

Speaker 17 Verna says she believes that the group of people responsible for Virgil's disappearance live close by.

Speaker 17 It's unclear whether police have looked into these folks. With the case still being active, the details of the investigation are closed to the public.

Speaker 17 However, Verna believes that someone from that group took issue with Virgil, and she claims on more than one occasion that a member of this group has tried to intimidate her and keep her from speaking out.

Speaker 23 She was trying to lure me down

Speaker 23 to her house where her dad and her brother they're responsible for his disappearance and he's the one that is the one that killed him

Speaker 29 i'd heard there were maybe ransom texts and threats made after the missing person report

Speaker 23 somebody had texted my niece's virgin's daughter saying that they had him and they wanted ransom

Speaker 17 Verna is referring to the same text messages you heard at the beginning of the episode.

Speaker 18 Texted you more than 10 hours and you're you're just responding. I swear on my life if you ever provoke and drop his lifeless body off the road.

Speaker 17 No leads ever came of these messages.

Speaker 17 Law enforcement declined to provide us with a comment on the text messages, but a 2020 article from ABC 7 News published a response from the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office.

Speaker 32 This unfortunately is a common scam that has occurred for several missing persons cases.

Speaker 32 Scammers typically access the missing person's information from shared posts on social media and use it to scam missing persons' families.

Speaker 17 Eventually, Virgil's daughter texted the anonymous number back.

Speaker 27 You're sick. You don't have my dad.
You're pulling the sick fucking game to get money.

Speaker 1 Fuck you.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 29 the people that you believe are responsible for Virgil's disappearance.

Speaker 19 Tell me who those people are.

Speaker 1 Gone.

Speaker 1 Most of them are gone.

Speaker 23 Dead.

Speaker 27 Can you describe what that group of people is like?

Speaker 1 Cold-hearted.

Speaker 23 Their conscience is seared, like with a hot iron, because they don't have no remorse.

Speaker 17 Disappearances like Virgil's create rumors that often muddy investigations and strain law enforcement's already limited resources.

Speaker 17 And unless someone comes forward, his family may never find answers.

Speaker 23 Now it's like way different

Speaker 23 because he's not here.

Speaker 23 But I know that

Speaker 1 he's still with me.

Speaker 29 If you could share a message with Virgil right now, what would you say?

Speaker 23 I tell him that I'm sorry

Speaker 23 and

Speaker 23 that I love and miss him with all my heart

Speaker 23 until we see again.

Speaker 17 Each new disappearance in Hoopa pushes the previous one deeper into obscurity.

Speaker 17 Over time, these unsolved cases grow colder and colder, and the MMIP's office bulletin board is a haunting testament to this tragic cycle.

Speaker 17 As the team packs up to leave, they take one final glance at the board. And there, hidden amongst the many cases, they stumble upon a post that has clung to the board for far too long.

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Speaker 35 According to the FBI, 5,295 Indigenous women were reported missing nationwide.

Speaker 26 A majority of the cases in our database were actually mothers of children.

Speaker 35 And so the loss of- Native American women are 10 times more likely to be murdered than any other ethnicity.

Speaker 37 Humboldt County Sheriff's Department information bulletin, August 13th, 1991, Detective D. Walker.

Speaker 37 The Humboldt County Sheriff's Department is currently investigating a missing persons report on Andrea Chick White.

Speaker 37 Andrea was last seen on Highway 299 at Blue Lake, California on July 31st, 1991.

Speaker 37 Carrying with her was a black leather jacket and a spalding white and black duffel bag.

Speaker 37 In the bag was a purple skirt, black sweater, black spandex tights with lace at the ankle, and black satin pumps. If found, please notify the Humboldt County Sheriff's Department.

Speaker 37 August 16th, 1991, Detective D. Walker.
The Humboldt County Sheriff's Department is continuing to investigate the disappearance of Andrea White.

Speaker 37 Additional information has been developed that White was hitchhiking eastbound just east of the Blue Lake exit. White was known to be at that location about 1:30 p.m.

Speaker 37 White had told several people she met that day that she was returning home.

Speaker 37 As of this this time, no family members, friends, or acquaintances have seen Andrea White since the July 31st sighting on Highway 299.

Speaker 37 September 4th, 1991, Detective Walker.

Speaker 37 Andrea White has now been missing 35 days with no confirmed contact with any family member. The Sheriff's Department now believes that foul play is strongly indicated in in White's disappearance.

Speaker 22 So my first memory, well, I guess I was probably

Speaker 22 seven or eight years old.

Speaker 17 This is Hoopa tribal member Allie Hostler of the Two Rivers Tribune.

Speaker 38 I remember

Speaker 30 my uncle came to the house.

Speaker 22 I remember it was in the evening time and he was worried because his wife, Chick White, hadn't come home.

Speaker 33 And in the days that followed, and she still didn't come home, we didn't hear from her. It was really unlike her to leave her children.

Speaker 38 And I just, I was a child at the time and I remember nobody knew what to do. And that was my first memory of hearing about a woman that I knew being missing.

Speaker 17 As we know from the Sheriff Department's bulletin, Andrea Trick White was last seen over 30 years ago after hitchhiking to Eureka.

Speaker 1 When she was, I think, nine months old, she was walking and talking.

Speaker 1 And I remember one of our cousins, she would just laugh all the time and say, oh,

Speaker 1 she looks like a little chippy. So Chippy is her nickname, but everybody calls her Chick.

Speaker 17 This is Anna White, Andrea's older sister.

Speaker 1 Chick was a beautiful young lady. She was a great mother.

Speaker 1 When I think of her, all I can think of is Chick and her kids. That was the most important thing in her life.

Speaker 17 Prior to Chick's disappearance, her partner passed away. And unfortunately, she'd end up losing guardianship of her children due to substance abuse.

Speaker 17 She was fighting hard to get clean and regain custody of them. In fact, when she was last seen, she was actually hitchhiking back from a court appearance.

Speaker 1 She was just so innocent and young

Speaker 1 and trusting. So I wondered if that had anything to do with that mission status.

Speaker 17 It's worth noting that with this area being so remote, hitchhiking is fairly common. Hoopa is situated an hour away from the nearest major city.

Speaker 17 And moreover, as we've previously mentioned, this county grapples with the highest rates of poverty in the nation.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of that and just the different hardships on the reservation for everyone is dysfunctional family systems, alcohol, and drugs.

Speaker 1 And CHIP issues were very compounded with our family situation and those issues on the bread

Speaker 17 and i know she was in an auto accident she had been drinking that's what she was hitchhiking back and forth to eureka to go to court anna later learned that a woman approached police with a tip about the day andrea went missing that local woman said she gave andrea a ride and let her out by an off-ramp on the way to Hoopa.

Speaker 1 And when I found out about that lady, I called the Humboldt County investigator and I wanted to talk to that lady.

Speaker 1 And detective said she does not want to be contacted by the family or anyone. And I thought that was a little bit strange.

Speaker 19 The Two Rivers Tribune wrote, the woman who dropped her off on Highway 299 provided her name and information to the police.

Speaker 19 According to White's sister Anna, the woman asked the police to keep her identity anonymous.

Speaker 1 And that's the saddest part of of everything is it seems like she just vanished. We don't have a clue of where she could be.

Speaker 1 Everything's open-ended.

Speaker 26 Three years old when it first happened. I do have memories of family in the house, like staying over, and I'm pretty sure that's when it happened.

Speaker 17 We spoke with Andrea's youngest son, Arnold. He doesn't remember much about his mother.
Most of his memories come from the stories that his friends and family have shared.

Speaker 17 She was a free bird, an energetic spirit.

Speaker 26 And I remember I woke up in the middle of the night and I would go into the living room and I see my family sleeping on the couches, you know,

Speaker 26 because they're there for support.

Speaker 26 And I remember looking in all the doors,

Speaker 26 probably looking for my mom, you know. And my dad, he was in one of our corner rooms and I remember looking into there even and I didn't see her so I just kept going trying to find her but

Speaker 26 but that's probably one of the only memories that I could recall of being that young the whole topic subject alone was like the elephant in the room that nobody talked about ever

Speaker 26 it's pretty tough

Speaker 26 I just hate have not having answers to questions

Speaker 26 For the longest time I felt like the shortfalls and stuff like that, I'd always like, well, maybe it's because you know she wasn't there.

Speaker 26 Maybe there's something I missed out on in my childhood or something, but I used to have a lot of talks with myself like that because of it.

Speaker 26 But trying to just come over it, you know, and

Speaker 26 look at it from a different angle.

Speaker 26 Pretty much just accept it for what it is. That's all I can do.

Speaker 26 I could let it stress me out every day,

Speaker 26 I just try to take one day at a time and be positive as I can.

Speaker 17 Since his mother's disappearance, Arnold has heard many rumors and stories about what may have happened to her.

Speaker 26 There's only so many things that could happen with somebody who's hitchhiking, either got picked up and murdered,

Speaker 26 or she's being kept alive against her own will.

Speaker 26 There was a guy who stayed in Arcata. His last name is Ford.

Speaker 26 It was a pretty big story here in Humboldt because he lived in Humboldt and he would do like long-haul truckings and he used to pick women up along the highway.

Speaker 26 And he finally confessed in 97 to women that he murdered.

Speaker 26 And when he turned himself in, he had like a woman's breast cut off inside of his coat. We were kind of curious if they ever did investigate that.

Speaker 39 November 3rd, 1998. 36-year-old Wayne Ford walks into the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office in Northern California.
He has a severed woman's breast in his jacket pocket.

Speaker 39 Ford tells police it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Speaker 39 He is charged with raping, torturing, and murdering four women, but there may have been more.

Speaker 17 While one of Ford's victims was a local from Eureka, it's not clear if law enforcement suspected that Andrea's disappearance may be tied to Ford.

Speaker 17 There was, however, another person in the community who many folks are suspicious of.

Speaker 17 Someone who should have been a protector.

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Speaker 17 Besides rumors about serial killer Wayne Ford, there was another person wrapped up in in rumors about Andrea's disappearance.

Speaker 20 If you're comfortable answering this, do you know if there was a connection between your mom and

Speaker 26 my grandma, before she passed away, she mentioned this, that he had raped my mother, him and one of his coworkers.

Speaker 17 Anna White also heard this story years ago.

Speaker 17 Andrea told her that she was picked up by two Humboldt County Sheriff's deputies, taken over the hill on Highway 299, and raped.

Speaker 17 After she allegedly reported the assault to HCSO,

Speaker 17 we're censoring the name of this individual because, despite a slew of allegations and legal charges made against him, we couldn't find any record of White's case.

Speaker 1 Was a deputy sheriff who was his sheriff dictionary and

Speaker 1 had a reputation of breaking into women's houses and committing sexual acts or attempting to.

Speaker 1 And chick were picked up by him and sexually assaulted, but nothing was ever done.

Speaker 26 They questioned,

Speaker 26 but he was a suspect, I guess, or enough to question about the whole situation.

Speaker 26 And I don't know if that was the family wanted him questioned or not, but apparently he had an alibi and he was cleared.

Speaker 26 I know you could search his name up on Google and it pops up his case that he had here and the pretty much allegations were that he was either molesting or raping two younger girls.

Speaker 17 We found those articles and records online. In 2020, a Sovereign Body Institute study revealed this individual faced multiple accusations of child abuse and sexual assault.

Speaker 17 Despite the numerous reports, he remained in his role as sheriff's deputy.

Speaker 17 He'd eventually be brought to trial, and while the first would end in a mistrial, on August 25th, 1990, he was found guilty of child molestation.

Speaker 17 Four months later, the judge overturned the conviction. The case was slated for retrial, but the young survivor, quote, could not withstand the mental health impacts of testifying a third time.

Speaker 17 Laura's article also mentions this deputy.

Speaker 19 One of the police officers that allegedly raped White was accused of sexual abuse on multiple occasions.

Speaker 19 There are other girls that he had raped too, Davis said, but I think my mom was the only one that was trying to come forward and press charges.

Speaker 19 According to Anna, the police officer came from a well-to-do family. There were rumors of people that he would follow around.
He was a predator.

Speaker 17 This is not an isolated event. While the team was in Hoopa, we heard a lot about police misconduct and distrust of law enforcement.

Speaker 17 Here's what Allie told us.

Speaker 30 Our people have a lack of confidence in our police, and that ride you took to get here from town, you got to take that ride to go to jail.

Speaker 30 And there's historical stories of women being sexually assaulted by officers on that drive, of people being beat on that drive. I think Laura's heard some of those stories too.

Speaker 17 Laura actually wrote about this issue issue for the paper.

Speaker 19 A report compiled by the York Tribal Court and the Sovereign Bodies Institute on MMIW in California found that out of 165 cases studied, around one in five were victims of police brutality or lethal neglect.

Speaker 19 A law enforcement officer in Humboldt County, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, vehemently agreed that Native people have long been abused by the police system.

Speaker 17 Humboldt County Sheriff's Office would not directly comment on these allegations.

Speaker 17 During our interview with Sheriff Hansel, he acknowledged that he is aware of prior concerns, but stressed that he's working hard to rebuild trust and foster positive relationships with the community.

Speaker 17 Still, when it comes to Andrea, we continued to ask ourselves, what made her a target? What factors make her and individuals like her more vulnerable to victimization?

Speaker 33 I think a lot of the focus is on women because they're more vulnerable when it comes to defending themselves or being put in situations where they feel disempowered.

Speaker 36 Well, I was reading a story last night about a woman who she said she had consensual sex with a truck driver who gave her a ride.

Speaker 31 But when I actually finished reading the story, I was like, that wasn't consensual at all.

Speaker 36 She was hitchhiking.

Speaker 22 He picked her up and he made her feel like she had to provide either drugs or sex

Speaker 22 or she was either going to get beat up and left alongside the road.

Speaker 36 I'm like, that's not consensual.

Speaker 33 But in her mind, as a Native woman, she felt like it was consensual because she agreed to it at that time.

Speaker 22 But really, when you read the story, it was like, no, that wasn't consensual.

Speaker 33 I mean, yeah, she wasn't forcibly raped, but she was put in a situation where she was vulnerable, highly vulnerable.

Speaker 17 It's been over 30 years since Andrea Chickwhite went missing.

Speaker 17 But still, as much as it pains them, her sister, her son, and the rest of her family, they've come to believe in the importance of sharing Andrea's story.

Speaker 26 With missing and murdered women in general, or people, I think it's always just not enough information being spread around, you know.

Speaker 26 If you have information about somebody who has family, that's missing or murdered, come forward with your information.

Speaker 26 Because even if it sounds crazy anything could lead to something you know one of them could be that crazy thing that you're hearing that's actually true

Speaker 1 i just hope that we're coming to a space of healing and we're still in the beginning phases of just establishing what mmiw is

Speaker 1 i think the more that we do this the more comfortable we'll get at it and the more awareness we'll bring.

Speaker 1 We missed our

Speaker 1 whole want to bring her home and we're never going to give up.

Speaker 17 Our team embarks on a 300-mile drive to Covalo.

Speaker 17 They plan to look into yet another missing person's case. While leaving Hoopa, they pull over on the side of the busy highway where Andrea Chick White was last seen.

Speaker 17 A National Geographic photograph published in 2022 shows Arnold, Andrea's son, standing at this very location.

Speaker 17 He's at a grassy median, backlit by the sun, and surrounded by little wildflowers. In his hands, he holds a photo in remembrance of his mom.

Speaker 17 Behind him, the traffic whips by.

Speaker 17 No one stops. Time moves on.

Speaker 17 It's the same today.

Speaker 17 But there's still time for change.

Speaker 17 Not all cases feel as cold as Andrea's.

Speaker 17 Like this next case in Covalo, California. There's a lead suspect.
And this time, he's named.

Speaker 8 Next time, on the vanishing point.

Speaker 1 I hadn't seen her for two weeks before she went missing. She called me on the 7th and said, mommy, whatever you do, do not open the door for anybody until lay low.

Speaker 17 Right there, I was like, dear, what's going on?

Speaker 1 And she hadn't that, I called her phone right back. It just went straight to voicemail.
and I kept calling it, it kept doing the same thing, so I never got a hold of her again after that.

Speaker 8 Thanks for listening to this episode of The Vanishing Point.

Speaker 11 This six-part series is released weekly, absolutely free.

Speaker 9 But if you want to listen to it ad-free, subscribe to Tinderfoot Plus at Tinderfootplus.com or on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 9 The Vanishing Point is a production of Tinderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Celicia Stanton is our host.

Speaker 11 The show is written by Meredith Stedman, Alex Vespested, and Jamie Albright, with additional writing assistance by Celicia Stanton.

Speaker 9 Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself, Payne Lindsay.

Speaker 11 Lead producer is Jamie Albright, along with Meredith Steadman.

Speaker 34 Editing by Alex Vespested.

Speaker 11 Additional editing by Sidney Evans.

Speaker 9 Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Laura Frader and Allie Hostler.
Research by Laura Frader and Taylor Floyd.

Speaker 10 Artwork by Byron McCoy.

Speaker 11 Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mixed by Dayton Cole.

Speaker 4 Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Speaker 11 And a special thanks to Greg O'Rourke. the KIDE 91.3 radio station in Hoopa, the Two Rivers Tribune, and all of the families and community members that spoke to us.

Speaker 34 For more podcasts like The Vanishing Point, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app, or visit us on our website at tenderfoot.tv.

Speaker 9 Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 28 Every story has layers, and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Chameleon, the podcast about about people who transform, deceive, and survive.

Speaker 28 From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it.

Speaker 13 Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.