The Vanishing Point: Episode 3, The Wild West

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Speaker 13 In every community, there are outliers.

Speaker 11 It doesn't matter where you are, a big city or a small town.

Speaker 13 And that's the case on reservations too.

Speaker 7 As our team spoke to people in and around Hoopa, the so-called end of the road seemed to have a reputation of being the place where outliers live.

Speaker 16 But it was time for our team to see this place for themselves.

Speaker 2 Our team is currently standing at the end of the road. It's an area Emily Risling frequented and the spot her family believes she disappeared from.

Speaker 2 There isn't much much here, except for a few trailers, an old building, and the river.

Speaker 18 Hey Frank, it's Laura, the journalist.

Speaker 2 Frank, a resident of the end of the road, claims he actually saw Emily near the time of her disappearance and that she told him about plans to float downriver.

Speaker 2 Though the behavior wouldn't be unusual of Emily, some Hoopa residents are suspicious of Frank.

Speaker 18 Frank is okay. Hi, hi, hi, Frank.
My name's Laura. I work with Allie Hostler.

Speaker 19 Hi. I work with Allie Hostler for the paper.

Speaker 21 My name's Laura.

Speaker 22 Well, come on in.

Speaker 2 Laura and Jamie went to Frank's home to talk to him about what he remembers.

Speaker 22 She wasn't on drugs.

Speaker 21 Does she seem in good spirits?

Speaker 22 Yeah, she wanted to clean up my house and yeah, she was in way good spirits.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 22 And she walked around naked a few times and that never did ever bother me.

Speaker 23 Tell us the last thing that you remember Emily saying to you or doing while she was here.

Speaker 22 Me and my cousin, that's where we met, and

Speaker 22 he was the last to talk to her. And

Speaker 22 she carried on a normal conversation.

Speaker 22 But she was on a mission. She wanted to get to APA.

Speaker 19 What is there? What is that place? Nothing.

Speaker 22 This bunch of spiritual praying grounds.

Speaker 22 That's why she wanted to go in that direction. She could have said, hey, can you take me to APA?

Speaker 22 And I would have found a way to get her there. But she didn't ask.

Speaker 22 But

Speaker 22 I believe she's still around here.

Speaker 22 Not in this form of life.

Speaker 22 But wondering why, you know, no one's come forward and say, hey, I did something to him or, you know, I seen him last or something.

Speaker 22 No one's getting involved in things like this no more. I'd rather hide or not say nothing.
Me, I don't care. I'm 65 years old.

Speaker 22 I don't care no more.

Speaker 2 Frank's trailer is small, warm by the glow of a wood-burning stove. There are clothes and other belongings scattered on every surface.
Despite the rumors, Frank himself seems unintimidating.

Speaker 2 He has a worn look about him, the type of eyes that seem like they've weathered a challenge or two. Limping a bit from an injured ankle, he wears a boot on his left leg.

Speaker 22 Emily, Emily, it still bothers me about her. And it bothers a lot of other people.

Speaker 22 And I don't see how you can just come up miss it.

Speaker 2 Frank seemed open to talking about Emily. And he wants to set the record straight about his cooperation with law enforcement.

Speaker 23 What message do you have to people that are spreading things about you?

Speaker 22 I let them talk. They got nothing else better to do than to talk about me and things that it's not even true.

Speaker 22 Then I heard everybody said, yeah, she's buried underneath his house and he's got her somewhere and this and that.

Speaker 24 And

Speaker 22 how stupid is that? So I got a hold of the sergeant, so I told him that you have more and more come down to my house anytime, look around, whatever. So yeah, I have nothing to hide.

Speaker 22 What people say about me, it's all bullshit.

Speaker 2 I'm Celicia Stanton, and this is the vanishing point.

Speaker 19 You arrested him, but he probably deserved it, and you sound like he thinks you're a good guy.

Speaker 1 Hell yeah, I arrested him a pork a couple times.

Speaker 1 Even, you know, if you arrest somebody, treat them with respect, treat them like a human being, and then when you see them again, they're not fucking you.

Speaker 25 They're like, you know what I'm doing, O'Rourke.

Speaker 2 Jamie and Laura regroup with the rest of our team and Yurok Tribal Police Chief Greg O'Rourke. As O'Rourke mentioned, after a series of arrests, he's quite familiar with Frank.

Speaker 2 In fact, a few days prior to our visit, Frank had been released from Semper

Speaker 2 the primary mental health facility serving the area.

Speaker 2 Although rumors still swirl, Frank was never a suspect. In fact, he was interviewed three times by law enforcement and his account remained consistent.

Speaker 2 And the fact is, Frank might have been the last person to see Emily, but without a time or date confirmation, Pequon Bridge remains her last verified location.

Speaker 2 As for our team, they perceive Frank as forthcoming, at least during their visit. He even spoke openly about his lifelong struggle with substance abuse.

Speaker 2 Still,

Speaker 2 the overarching mystery persists.

Speaker 2 What became of Emily Risling that fateful October day?

Speaker 2 Allie Hostler from the True Rivers Tribune suspects that the river holds clues.

Speaker 20 I know several people have gone missing in the river and... You know, usually it's up to family members to recover them to either launch a boat and go recover them themselves or

Speaker 20 even people will wait at the mouth of the Klamath and wait there for their loved one to get washed out.

Speaker 20 My brother actually drowned in the river in 2013.

Speaker 23 He was

Speaker 20 running from police.

Speaker 20 That's sort of a common thing where people will jump in the river to evade police in a pursuit. And he did that and he didn't make it out.

Speaker 24 So

Speaker 20 I know of at least three other people around my age that did the same thing.

Speaker 20 A lot of them make it and some of them don't.

Speaker 20 I think that's just the general fear of police.

Speaker 20 There's an overall fear of certain officers not treating people fairly.

Speaker 20 You know, there's been

Speaker 20 cases where people from here have been beaten in jail by correctional officers. There's also a fear of

Speaker 20 if I go to jail,

Speaker 20 I can't use my drugs. I don't have access to drugs like I did before.
So, when you're an addict and your addiction is taking over your life,

Speaker 20 avoid jail at all costs because you have to

Speaker 20 either find drugs in jail or you have to clean up.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 20 not everyone wants to clean up.

Speaker 2 While there are still so many questions surrounding Emily's disappearance, we know that substance abuse may have played a role. And if it did, she wouldn't be alone.

Speaker 2 According to the CDPH overdose dashboard, the area encompassing Hoopa Valley reports an opioid death rate eight times the state average.

Speaker 2 And Ali says, it's not only the folks struggling with addiction whose lives are in peril. The spouses, the kids, the parents, the friends, the community, nothing and no one seems immune.

Speaker 2 To better understand where this crisis began, we spoke with Humboldt County Sheriff William Hansell.

Speaker 25 In Humboldt County, we had a pervasive drug culture.

Speaker 25 It started with marijuana, and then it goes to, you know, psilocybin mushrooms and, you know, methamphetamine, heroin was huge, cocaine, and now fentanyl.

Speaker 25 And a lot of people say, well, you have a lot of people that looks like are suffering from either being addicted to drugs and becoming zombie-like.

Speaker 25 You know, is that because of the substance abuse or is that because of mental illness?

Speaker 5 I think it's obviously a little bit of both.

Speaker 25 We have people that have that dual diagnosis. If they are addicted to drugs, they oftentimes have, you know, some mental illness that's tied to it.

Speaker 25 Being in a rural jurisdiction in California does not make us immune to the fentanyl issues. And we've seen a huge number of fentanyl.

Speaker 25 It has doubled every year for the last three years,

Speaker 25 which is way too much.

Speaker 25 We've outfitted all of our deputies with Narcan

Speaker 25 in hopes that if we come across someone who is overdosing, that we can save their life. And that has happened several times over the last couple of years.

Speaker 25 I believe that there are people that explicitly target people in tribes because sometimes they're stuck in the reservation or maybe people are stuck in an addiction or two.

Speaker 25 You're looking at people that want to take advantage of the system in place. And there are cartels, there are gang members, there are people that are anti-government that hide out on tribal land.

Speaker 25 because they believe that there's some kind of insulation by living in the tribal community.

Speaker 25 And the cartels see that they can take advantage of people by giving them money, giving them drugs, giving them access,

Speaker 25 buys them time, buys them opportunities to live amongst members of the tribal community. And when law enforcees come, it is a very difficult task, and oftentimes they're shunned.

Speaker 25 It can become very dangerous.

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Speaker 2 So clearly, drugs are a hot button issue in California, and particularly in Humboldt County, where Hoopa is located. But health concerns and potential overdoses aren't the only risks.

Speaker 1 It really feels like it's still the Wild West, and they don't really have a handle on it in terms of policing that area. They never have.

Speaker 2 We called on Chief Judge Victorio Shaw, a tribal judge in California, to tell us more about some of the more hidden obstacles.

Speaker 1 I mean, people blatantly growing illegal marijuana, it's created an outlaw culture. And so that goes hand in hand with outlaw justice or just, I already break these laws.
I'll break a couple more.

Speaker 2 Once marijuana was legalized in 2016, the regulatory fees and environmental standards basically priced a lot of people out of the trade.

Speaker 2 And then the subsequent boom in marijuana farming meant supply quickly outpaced demand. It destroyed sellers' economic advantage.

Speaker 2 With all of these changes, many struggled to maintain their way of life.

Speaker 2 In California, illegal marijuana cultivation continues, and unfortunately, it's gained a reputation for not treating workers fairly.

Speaker 1 So many people relied on the marijuana industry to pay their bills, to feed their children, to survive.

Speaker 1 They didn't really have

Speaker 1 a resume and a skill set to be able to support themselves in other ways. So many people who were already self-admitted outlaws turned to other areas of crime.

Speaker 1 So whether that's maybe selling fentanyl instead of marijuana or that's stealing, you know, burglarizing places, maybe they're just in such a desperate state, they don't really care anymore about other people.

Speaker 1 They're just out for themselves and they're addicted now.

Speaker 1 So I think there's sort of a belief that if you are a criminal, you can get away with it easier, longer, and maybe forever in a place like Humboldt County.

Speaker 1 I learned like pretty early on growing up there that be careful what situations you put yourself in. Everyone's super territorial and

Speaker 1 aggressive about it. And not to say

Speaker 1 there's not really lovely, beautiful things and people. There's definitely that, but you could just break it down by statistics.

Speaker 1 Something's more likely to happen in some places compared to others, and that's the reality.

Speaker 30 Humboldt County is home to ancient redwood forests, environmentally sensitive creeks and streams, and ponds. This scenic stretch is where 60% of marijuana is grown in the United States.

Speaker 30 Experts tell us it's not the climate or the soil that draws farmers here, it's the isolation.

Speaker 30 You have a range of farmers, those who do it right and follow the rules, and the illegal grows sometimes hidden on federal land. And there's another startling statistic.

Speaker 30 Humboldt County also also has the highest rate of missing person cases in the state.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of stories in connection with the illegal marijuana industry that was for years people would go missing and that was almost an accepted fact.

Speaker 1 To be fair to the law enforcement, Native people aren't the only ones that go missing up there and aren't found and aren't looked for.

Speaker 1 Like a lot of people go missing up there and most of them are never found.

Speaker 1 Historically, criminals have sought Indian reservations to hide out on because they know

Speaker 1 they're even less likely to be found and arrested if they have warrants or they're suspected in other cases. So it almost attracts those types of people.

Speaker 1 When I was a kid growing up there, And this is just purely like school gossip, but people would say, oh,

Speaker 1 Humboldt County is the serial killer capital of the world because people can hide out there and there's a million places to hide bodies.

Speaker 1 It is a very beautiful place and it has a lot of healing energy. But yeah, there's people in the shadows that aren't there for that.

Speaker 2 Over and over again, as we delved into these missing persons' cases, the topic of drugs kept surfacing. It was a a sign that this was a piece of the puzzle worth investigating further.

Speaker 2 But even after we did, so much was still unanswered. We were left with the same central question, what happened to Emily Risling?

Speaker 2 Here again is Chief Greg O'Rourke.

Speaker 1 It's not that I think that.

Speaker 1 I can't confirm foul play. I can't confirm a drowning, but I have to be objective and have to be open-minded to that's a possibility.

Speaker 1 And without

Speaker 1 any indicator of foul play, then, you know, the likelihood of that possibility becomes stronger.

Speaker 2 The Risling family hasn't found these answers satisfying. They hope for more searches of the area.
They hope that Emily will one day be found.

Speaker 1 What can a community do? Well, acknowledge and accept that mental health is an issue and and not get caught up in the stigma of it. Because

Speaker 1 when and if it gets to a point where law enforcement gets involved because of missing or because of a crime, we need to know who we're dealing with, not who that person was.

Speaker 1 And I remember telling Emily's mom, it's still having an opportunity to be able to help her people by her message and her story coming out. And, you know, poor Judy, you know, he cried on that.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I felt bad, but

Speaker 1 that's, you know, also how I see it

Speaker 2 and as for Judy Resling

Speaker 26 it's frustrating I run into people every day

Speaker 26 that have no idea about this crisis that's going on in the Native communities

Speaker 26 so I think bringing awareness and searching immediately, these are just like any other missing people.

Speaker 24 Emily

Speaker 26 would be out there advocating for this. And so,

Speaker 26 in a way, it's kind of like

Speaker 24 her talking through me to keep this out there in the public.

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Speaker 19 We good?

Speaker 1 We're good to go? Okay.

Speaker 21 Okay, so we can start by you can introduce yourself, your connection to Simi, and just anything else you feel comfortable sharing.

Speaker 24 Okay, so I'm Aurelia Alatore. I am 27.

Speaker 2 As we looked into Emily's case, we learned about other cases in the area, and some of them shared similarities. One of these stories was Sumi Juan's.

Speaker 2 Like Emily, before she disappeared, Sumi struggled with mental illness.

Speaker 24 My connection to Sumi, she is my mother

Speaker 24 and I haven't lived with her since I was five. I went and lived with my dad and there was just always like custody battles.

Speaker 24 So it's really hard for me when I'm asked about my mom, like it's really hard for me to say like who she was because I didn't really grow up with her.

Speaker 2 Aurelia hasn't seen her mom in 13 years.

Speaker 24 So we were living in Reading and we had come over to Hoopa for dentist appointments, which we did frequently and races.

Speaker 24 I was coming out and I was going to make a new appointment and they have this board right when you walk out and I had seen this poster of her. She was wearing a white t-shirt.

Speaker 24 Her hair was in a bun with flyaways and that was the first time I seen it or heard anything about it. And it said she was missing like September or October.

Speaker 24 It was kind of just a shock.

Speaker 2 Aurelia Aurelia learned about her mother's disappearance from a missing poster at the dentist's office. Her family had been hopeful that Sumi might turn up, so they'd kept her disappearance a secret.

Speaker 2 It was best to not upset Aurelia, they'd reasoned, but their plans had the opposite effect.

Speaker 24 I didn't say anything until we got home, because it was like,

Speaker 24 is that even real?

Speaker 24 Then I talked to my dad about it, and he said, well, we were hoping she was going to come back. So they didn't say anything.

Speaker 24 I don't know many details, but I know that she had a really hard life.

Speaker 2 Without many memories of her mother, Aurelia relies on family and friends to help fill in the gaps.

Speaker 24 And I have recently been told that she had us go live with my dad because she wanted us to have a better life.

Speaker 24 She essentially just like gave us to my dad, but she was also dealing with like her mental health issues, so I get it.

Speaker 2 Laura wrote an article about Sumi for the Two Rivers Tribune.

Speaker 21 Juan was 32 years old when she was reported missing to the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office on October 29th, 2010.

Speaker 21 According to the Sheriff's Office, Juan was last seen by family members in early October or September 2010 at Hoopa Elementary School.

Speaker 21 All current information about Juan's case is listed under the Unsolved Cases on the Humboldt County's website. Juan is described as a missing person under under suspicious circumstances.

Speaker 21 Can you talk a little bit about how your mom's disappearance has impacted you?

Speaker 24 I feel like I've just been surviving, to be honest. When my mom went missing, it felt like nobody was searching for her, like even her own tribe.
Like it was very little effort, so.

Speaker 24 It was just disappointing to see.

Speaker 21 So it was mostly silence.

Speaker 24 I know that there were searches. but it isn't like how it is like now if someone goes missing.
I mean, they put out rewards, they're everywhere, and that wasn't the case.

Speaker 2 Laura interviewed Sumi's mother, Aurelia's grandmother, Sylvia Carpenter. This is what she had to say.

Speaker 21 Carpenter explained that the last time that she saw her daughter, Juan was on her way to see a Hoopa resident who Carpenter suspected was a drug dealer. I said, what are you doing?

Speaker 21 You know how they are. I've never seen her again after that.

Speaker 21 In the years that followed Juan's disappearance, Carpenter said a family member of the alleged drug dealer implied to Carpenter that they knew Juan's whereabouts.

Speaker 21 They came to me and said, you want to know something about your daughter? You have to come and see me, but you have to come by yourself.

Speaker 21 Carpenter said, for real? And I didn't go. I never did go.

Speaker 21 Carpenter said that she was eventually told that Juan's remains are allegedly under a cement slab at the home of the alleged drug dealer in Hupa. He would never let anybody go there, Carpenter said.

Speaker 21 He's been no good his whole life.

Speaker 24 I've heard a lot of things about my mom's disappearance and everything

Speaker 24 has ended with murder. And those stories are hard to hear.

Speaker 24 And what's even more crazy is that person whoever did it is probably someone we know, we all know here, and they're just walking around.

Speaker 2 The alleged offender Aurelia is referring to hasn't been named a suspect. And it's unclear if he was investigated for Sumi's disappearance or if the talk around town is just gossip.

Speaker 2 We don't have any further information on this person, but a press release published by Humboldt County Sheriff's Office in November of 2010 did indicate that there may have been potential leads.

Speaker 32 Humboldt County Sheriff's detectives are interested in speaking to two people they believe spent time with Juan near the time of her disappearance. Detectives are attempting to locate Robert Hodge Jr.

Speaker 32 and Deborah jealous of him, both of Hoopa.

Speaker 32 Sheriff's detectives wish to emphasize that neither of the two are suspects in the disappearance.

Speaker 2 We attempted to locate Robert Hodge Jr. and Deborah jealous of him.

Speaker 2 And while we weren't able to locate Robert, we found through a public record search that he had had been arrested in 2019 during a meth and heroin bust in Hoopa.

Speaker 2 We were able to locate information on Deborah jealous of him.

Speaker 2 Sadly, a newspaper article from 2018 states that she passed away after being found unresponsive in an alleyway.

Speaker 2 Our team had an interview scheduled with Sumi's mom, but when they arrived, she'd changed her mind. Other family members also declined our interview requests.

Speaker 2 Laura has her thoughts on why they may not not want to talk.

Speaker 21 Based off of what I've been told, she was last seen heading towards a person who is living in Hoopa at the time, and he was a known drug dealer. And

Speaker 21 that seems to have been the last sort of concrete time that anyone saw her. And it's,

Speaker 21 you know, there seems to be a lot of rumors, like a lot of these cases, a lot of rumors from people who live in the community. Because as far as I'm aware,

Speaker 21 he was a drug dealer and he may still be. And I think he has some pretty unsavory connections.

Speaker 21 So I don't judge anyone for not wanting to come forward with information, but there definitely seems to be fear surrounding this particular individual.

Speaker 2 In tight-knit insular communities like Hoopa, it's hard to get away from a person of interest.

Speaker 2 When a case goes unsolved for so long, those fears, they fester. Aurelia is no stranger to this.

Speaker 24 I mean, I'm constantly concerned something's going to happen to me and my kids. I just, as a mom, I became so paranoid.

Speaker 24 We were in Sacramento and I was going to take them to the park. And I drove around for like 30, 40 minutes because I was too scared to get out of the car.
It's like, I'm so vulnerable.

Speaker 24 If something happens, like, I can't save both of them. So it's different.
Now anything can happen. Like, nothing's impossible.

Speaker 24 It's crazy because my mom went missing on the reservation, but this is where I feel the safest. I don't know if I could really live anywhere else.

Speaker 2 Aurelia proudly displays a tattoo on her collarbone, a dandelion, half blown away in the wind. Her mother's name above it.

Speaker 2 It's a memento, one that honors her mom and reminds her of her spirit.

Speaker 24 So it was my first tattoo, and it was funny because the tattoo artist, he was like, oh, I'm going to need to add some white because you're a little dark.

Speaker 24 My mom was very dark and my grandma, she's pretty dark too.

Speaker 32 So it's kind of funny.

Speaker 21 I think that's great that you have that. That's very special.

Speaker 24 Yeah, I actually,

Speaker 24 my grandma had gave me

Speaker 24 like a couple journals of my mom's and one of them said who she was. I'm Sumi Gaya Wan and she said, I have three beautiful daughters that I love dearly.
So I'll probably add that somewhere.

Speaker 2 The last 13 years have presented challenges for Aurelia.

Speaker 2 She's determined to use her experience to help others.

Speaker 24 Just recently, in the last couple of years, I went through such an angry phase.

Speaker 24 When someone would come up missing or anything, I'm like, well, why should I care? They didn't care. And then I'm like, that's terrible now that I think about it.
But I was just so angry.

Speaker 24 And now I'm like, okay.

Speaker 24 I want to be a part of whatever they're doing.

Speaker 24 So I recently, I took this job, I applied for MMIP advocate. I want to be able to help individuals impacted by a family member or a friend who was murdered or missing.

Speaker 24 We can help them, assist them to go if they need a place to stay or just directing them to different resources. And I am a little nervous with the job because I still deal with it.

Speaker 24 on a day-to-day basis. So I'm just a little nervous that I might, it might be too much for me, but I'm gonna do it as long as I can.

Speaker 2 Allie took us to the MMIP office, the same one where Aurelia works. It's an unassuming building right off a tree-lined road.

Speaker 20 Okay, this is the Hoopa Valley Tribes MMIP and Domestic Violence Prevention Program office.

Speaker 2 The office provides a lot of support. including a safe space for victims.
It's a resource that caters to a wide range of needs.

Speaker 2 Whether it's escaping dangerous situations or simply finding a calm, secure spot to do laundry, it's a valuable asset to the community.

Speaker 20 There's a whole Indian Health Service Clinic campus here with several programs.

Speaker 20 There's a medically assisted treatment program office, there's a medical clinic, there's a diabetes prevention program office, and then also this MMIP office is a couple years old, but a fairly new addition.

Speaker 20 But the tribe recognized the need to address address the MMIP epidemic here on the reservation and establish this office as part of that

Speaker 2 as the team walks down the hallway a bulletin board in one of the rooms grabs their attention

Speaker 2 it's covered with flyers when they get close enough to read the board they see it's cluttered with missing posters it's been over a month now since according to the FBI 5,000 a majority of the cases in our database were actually mothers what reportedness.

Speaker 19 A lot of people say it's difficult to get mothers.

Speaker 7 Women are 10 times more likely.

Speaker 21 I think somebody did something to my dad.

Speaker 13 With MMIP cases overwhelming law enforcement, the Up and Vanished team dives into a new unsolved case from the Hoopa Valley area.

Speaker 14 That's next time on the vanishing point.

Speaker 22 With Virgil? Oh, Virgil Bustle?

Speaker 1 Mm-hmm. Oh, man.

Speaker 22 I've heard a lot of stories. I heard he was put inside of a tripper spread out all over.

Speaker 19 Why would someone want to hurt Virgil?

Speaker 22 I don't know. Virgil is a pretty tough fella.
So you'd have to catch him by surprise. So this person or this beard or whatever that made him disappear is pretty

Speaker 22 strange.

Speaker 14 Thanks for listening to this episode of The Vanishing Point.

Speaker 27 This six-part series is released weekly, absolutely free.

Speaker 7 But if you want to listen to it ad-free, subscribe to Tinderfoot Plus at TinderfootPlus.com or on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 7 The Vanishing Point is a production of Tinderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Celicia Stanton is our host.

Speaker 13 The show is written by Meredith Stedman, Alex Vespested, and Jamie Albright, with additional writing assistance by Celicia Stanton.

Speaker 7 Executive producers are Donald Albright and myself Payne Lindsey.

Speaker 13 Lead producer is Jamie Albright, along with Meredith Stedman.

Speaker 12 Editing by Alex Vespested.

Speaker 11 Additional editing by Sidney Evans.

Speaker 7 Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Laura Frader and Allie Hostler.
Research by Laura Frader and Taylor Floyd.

Speaker 11 Artwork by Byron McCoy.

Speaker 13 Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Speaker 11 Mix by Dayton Cole.

Speaker 5 Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Speaker 11 And a special thanks to Greg O'Rourke, the KIDE 91.3 radio station in Hoopa, the Two Rivers Tribune, and all of the families and community members that spoke to us.

Speaker 14 For more podcasts like The Vanishing Point, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app.

Speaker 7 Or visit us on our website at tenderfoot.tv.

Speaker 7 Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 27 Every story has layers, and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Chameleon, the podcast about people who transform, deceive, and survive.

Speaker 27 From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it.

Speaker 25 Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.