What the Body Reveals

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Speaker 8 Hey, it's Payne. We have some incredible news to share.
Our latest podcast series, Wisecrack, was just named one of the best of 2025 by Apple Podcasts. It's an amazing honor.

Speaker 8 Not only was Wisecrack selected, but the first episode called Knock Knock was also chosen as one of the best episodes of the year.

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Speaker 8 I promise it's worth the listen. It's available now on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
And thanks again to Apple for showing this show some love.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is released every Thursday and brought to you absolutely free.

Speaker 2 But for ad-free listening and exclusive bonuses, subscribe to Tenderfoot Plus at TenderfootPlus.com or on Apple Podcasts.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is intended for mature audiences and may include topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder.

Speaker 2 The names of survivors have been changed for anonymity purposes. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not reflect the views of Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 8 From Tinderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun.

Speaker 1 I'm your host, Payne Lindsay.

Speaker 7 I'm Mike Rooney, and I've been helping Payne create Up and Vanished since season two.

Speaker 7 I usually prefer to be behind the scenes, but Payne is currently dealing with some things, and he really wanted to get these results out. So, here goes nothing.

Speaker 7 For this episode, we wanted to follow up with our polygraph expert, Jessica, and go over all of the charts from John's polygraph test. This was an interesting day.

Speaker 7 I was actually in the room next door with the door closed, hiding so that I could record the test with a hidden mic and not affect his answers in any way.

Speaker 7 We wanted to ensure that John felt comfortable. and that he was alone in the room with her while maintaining everyone's safety.

Speaker 7 Anyways, here's our follow-up with Jessica.

Speaker 10 Normally when I test somebody, you know a real test, not for some TV show or something, we do what we call a throwaway test.

Speaker 10 Before we actually do the test, we'll say these are the questions we're going to ask

Speaker 10 so that they're not jumping with surprise.

Speaker 10 So I did a total of three charts.

Speaker 10 You gotta remember, polygraph machine does not directly detect lies, but rather measures the physiological responses to questions which are then interpreted by the examiner.

Speaker 10 It's known worldwide as a lie detector test. It actually doesn't determine someone's life.

Speaker 10 We're reading physiological responses to questions

Speaker 10 and then those are interpreted by me or whoever the examiner is.

Speaker 10 for the accuracy of the interpretation and the effectiveness of polygraph tests in detecting deception.

Speaker 10 I mean, obviously that's still, you know, an ongoing debate, but they use them in law enforcement agencies across the U.S.

Speaker 10 You can't become a police officer without passing a polygraph test and 20% of the candidates fail. So we know that they are effective, but you have to remember that these are physiological responses.

Speaker 10 So here's the thing, with his breathing, There were questions that I asked and he would almost like hold his breath for a second.

Speaker 10 When it flatlined, flatlines, that's also a sign of deception.

Speaker 10 And his blood pressure would shoot up.

Speaker 10 You can elaborate later. Like you just have to answer yes or no right when that question is fired off to you.

Speaker 10 That gives the immediate response.

Speaker 10 Any delays or any movement after that, we're taking that first 15 seconds and that's what we're measuring. That's what we're looking at on the polygraph.

Speaker 10 He said, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? He said no.

Speaker 10 That showed he was telling the truth. No deception was indicated.

Speaker 10 So in other words, did you tell the truth about law enforcement about everything you know regarding?

Speaker 10 He said no, and that one showed deception.

Speaker 10 First he said yes and then he said no.

Speaker 10 But that was on the last one he said no and that did show he was telling the truth

Speaker 10 he said yes and then he said no but when he said no it showed he was telling the truth it showed he was being forthright and honest so did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding florence's disappearance no

Speaker 10 that right there sets him up for everything

Speaker 10 because he said no

Speaker 10 and that showed he wasn't being deceptive

Speaker 10 so in other words He's held back on a lot of things probably with law enforcement and with you guys as well

Speaker 10 because he already said no he didn't tell law enforcement everything he knows about Florence's disappearance.

Speaker 10 Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said no, he's admitting already that he's holding back.

Speaker 10 That he didn't tell everything. And that showed he was telling the truth.

Speaker 10 His body had no reaction regarding deception because he was clearly saying, no, I didn't tell them everything.

Speaker 10 He knows more than he's willing to say.

Speaker 10 Then he also was asked, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? That also

Speaker 10 showed deception.

Speaker 10 Because he answered, no, but the problem is it's complete conflict with the other question. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 10 So he's saying, no, I didn't tell them everything.

Speaker 10 And that showed he was telling the truth, right? So this other question, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? When he says, no, it showed deception.

Speaker 10 And you could almost...

Speaker 10 understand that it's going to show deception because in the previous question he already said he didn't tell law enforcement everything about Florence's disappearance

Speaker 10 the other one about have you ever had sexual contact with Florence oh pilot

Speaker 10 he said no and he was like really adamant his physiological responses in his body exploded

Speaker 10 So not only was it just the

Speaker 10 skin conductor, but the blood pressure and the breathing

Speaker 10 all just exploded on the chart.

Speaker 10 So I don't know what he did. I don't know if he had sex.
I don't know if he had sex and it was consensual or not consensual. I don't know if he touched her.

Speaker 10 We don't know any of this.

Speaker 10 But we do know that when he was asked that question,

Speaker 10 this was probably the most dominant question

Speaker 10 regarding his reaction. and these physiological changes in his body.
So everything on the chart exploded.

Speaker 10 His breathing, his blood pressure, and the GSR, the galvanized skin response, the skin conductivity.

Speaker 10 It showed deception.

Speaker 10 Because remember, we're measuring physiological changes in his body with these things hooked up to him.

Speaker 10 The breathing apparatus, the skin conductivity, those are on his fingertips, and with the blood pressure cuff on his arm. But this one was the most dominant of everything that was asked of him.

Speaker 10 So again, we don't know if he actually had sex with her.

Speaker 10 We don't know if he did, if it was consensual or not. But the question was, have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? So, you know, it doesn't have to be sex.

Speaker 10 It's sexual contact was the question that Payne had given me. And when he was asked that, his body exploded.

Speaker 10 And he said no, and he was adamant about it, but his body exploded. So

Speaker 10 something occurred between them, but we don't know what because we weren't there.

Speaker 10 But it definitely showed deception.

Speaker 10 Is Florence O'Pilo alive?

Speaker 10 He was like squirming on this one.

Speaker 10 Remember, yes or no questions. He has to answer with his mouth only with no movement.
So any movement can show deception.

Speaker 10 Because that raises things. It can raise your blood pressure.
It can change your breathing. And it can also shoot microscopic changes of sweat to the fingertips.

Speaker 10 So on this one, he was like, well, I don't know, I don't know how to answer that, blah, blah, blah. And he was squirming.

Speaker 10 He said he didn't know, right?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 10 that right there is an indication of deception.

Speaker 10 I mean, is she alive?

Speaker 10 He wasn't able to answer that.

Speaker 10 Then there was, do you know what happened to Florence? And he said no, and there was deception indicated.

Speaker 10 Definitely the strongest one for me, my favorite out of all of these physiological changes are the ones who sweat because some people can control their breathing a little.

Speaker 10 Even blood pressure, you know, some people can be calm. And I think he started out thinking, because so much time had passed, it's been like five years, right?

Speaker 10 My feeling regarding him and watching his responses to these was, I believe that he felt like so much time has passed he would easily pass a polygraph.

Speaker 10 I truly believe that.

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Speaker 10 You heard all of the things he was saying to me before we even started the test. He protects women and he's, you know, he was just trying to go overboard on his innocence and what a good guy he is.

Speaker 10 And Payne had forewarned me about him.

Speaker 10 When we asked, do you know what happened to Florence? Deception was indicated when he said no.

Speaker 10 So he definitely knows more than he's saying.

Speaker 10 Also, are there other people involved in her disappearance? That was the other one that he squirmed on.

Speaker 10 You know, he didn't know how to answer that. So obviously this is a sign of deception.

Speaker 10 Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? He said no. That showed he was telling the truth.

Speaker 10 Right there, he's saying that he's holding back information.

Speaker 10 And then the other one was have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked and that one showed deception because he obviously said no

Speaker 10 so based on the federal guidelines and readings of this polygraph test it clearly shows deception overall

Speaker 10 with the exception of did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance. He said no.

Speaker 10 That showed he was telling the truth.

Speaker 10 That right there tells you that this guy is holding back.

Speaker 10 But based on the guidelines, on all the other questions, it did show deception.

Speaker 10 I mean, I believe he definitely knows more than he's willing to say.

Speaker 10 And he's definitely not being forthright about it.

Speaker 10 He's,

Speaker 10 I think he's possibly a bit of a narcissist.

Speaker 10 There's three different types of narcissism and he falls into a certain category of narcissism. And I think he definitely does not believe his own lies.

Speaker 10 His body reacted so dominant and sharp. And I have a feeling that he has probably changed his answers.

Speaker 10 If he was asked these by law enforcement or anything, he's probably changed his answers with them many times as well.

Speaker 10 But I think that

Speaker 10 he has a problem telling the truth. He will not be forthright.

Speaker 10 I think he knows more. He knows more than he's telling.
So

Speaker 10 yeah, he's overall, the guy is very decept, very deceptive. And such a long time has passed.
Five years is a long time.

Speaker 10 And his body still reacted.

Speaker 10 On the outside, he acted very,

Speaker 10 yeah, I want to clear my name. Let's get this over with.

Speaker 10 But I believe that this guy truly believed that so much time had passed, he would be able to pass a polygraph, no matter what the questions were.

Speaker 10 His body told a different story.

Speaker 10 The only question

Speaker 10 that he told the truth on

Speaker 10 was when I asked him, did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Speaker 10 And he said no.

Speaker 10 That showed he was telling the truth

Speaker 10 everything else showed signs of deception that was on the everything else showed deception from him

Speaker 10 his heart rate his blood pressure his respiration and his skin conductivity all

Speaker 10 it didn't just fluctuate they they shot up so much

Speaker 10 That happens when a person is stressed or

Speaker 10 excited.

Speaker 10 and his body was doing that after five years. That's what his body was doing.
You know, when he was asked these questions, which is signs of deception.

Speaker 10 I asked questions in between to keep a baseline. So I asked him questions in between, like, have you ever named McDonald's? Because that shows what his body does when he's telling the truth, right?

Speaker 10 And then you ask a relevant question after that, and then his body would explode.

Speaker 10 So he definitely had

Speaker 10 very serious signs of deception.

Speaker 10 He was being deceptive.

Speaker 10 This guy is,

Speaker 10 I think he's deceptive. I think he knows a lot more than he knows.
I think that he thought that after all this time, he truly believed that he would

Speaker 10 have

Speaker 10 this easily.

Speaker 10 And it just it didn't happen

Speaker 10 he passed one question

Speaker 10 and that was did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance when he said no that showed it was telling the truth so out of these questions that was the only one he passed

Speaker 10 if you or I were hooked up to this polygraph instrument And we know that we were telling the truth about all the questions that were asked.

Speaker 10 I can tell you this,

Speaker 10 when I passed my polygraph from the law enforcement agency I was with,

Speaker 10 I didn't get up and say, I hope I passed or did I pass.

Speaker 10 I knew that I passed.

Speaker 10 I didn't ask them, hey, how'd I do? Did I pass?

Speaker 10 Because I already knew I was telling the truth.

Speaker 10 If somebody would have told me, hey, you didn't pass, I would have said, then your machine is broken. Your instrument needs to be recalibrated.

Speaker 10 But why why would an innocent person ask, hey, so did I pass?

Speaker 10 Would an innocent person, you can ask your listeners,

Speaker 10 if you told the truth on a polygraph test, why would you have to ask, did I pass?

Speaker 10 If we asked you, did you rob the bank last week? And you said, no, you wouldn't turn around and ask, did I pass?

Speaker 10 Because you know you didn't rob the bank, right?

Speaker 10 I mean, stress and anxiety are what is measured. and I believe that you can't isolate them completely, but you also can't control your internal physiological reactions in your body.

Speaker 10 Your body's going to do what it's going to do.

Speaker 7 Now you've heard the full polygraph test, the examiner's take, and pain's working on what comes next. But now you know what we know as far as the results.
From here, we're going to pivot a little bit.

Speaker 7 Not that long ago, another tip came in regarding Joseph's truck.

Speaker 7 This individual reached out to Payne to let him know that someone close to her saw someone else in Joseph's truck around the time he went missing.

Speaker 16 She saw someone in the same area where Joseph's vehicle was parked.

Speaker 16 And she thought that it was strange that he ended up missing. I'm probably one of the only people that she's told.

Speaker 16 I asked her, well, why haven't you said anything? And she got quiet. I'm a little bit nervous to say anything to her because so much bad things have happened to people in Nome.

Speaker 16 And I believe that she doesn't want to get involved because maybe she could be targeted.

Speaker 16 She's the only one with that kind of information.

Speaker 16 And I told her, I said, you're the only one who knows. You should say something.
And she got quiet.

Speaker 16 I think she's afraid to get involved.

Speaker 16 This person ended up missing.

Speaker 16 And I said, so you saw him out there and driving a vehicle? And she totally denied everything.

Speaker 16 I want to say his name is Piscoia.

Speaker 16 The only person that they were talking about was him.

Speaker 16 She saw him.

Speaker 16 She saw him out there. And I think...

Speaker 1 Who's him?

Speaker 16 Jake.

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Speaker 7 We've heard a lot of stories about Joseph's truck moving, other people driving it, to the point where it seems like it was almost teleporting that weekend.

Speaker 7 It's messy, it's hard to know which tip to follow. But we've never stopped talking to witnesses who may or may not have seen the truck moving that weekend.

Speaker 7 Sometime last year, Payne called Nick Gray, Kim's ex-husband.

Speaker 8 Hey, this is Payne.

Speaker 8 Are you aware of the disappearances of Florence Ocpiolik and Joseph Balderis?

Speaker 1 Joseph Balderis, other than what's been on the news, that's all I know. Just whatever was reported.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 anything else I can help you with?

Speaker 1 I remember who you are now.

Speaker 1 I don't need to talk about anything with you at this point.

Speaker 1 We're done talking. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. The person you're trying to reach is not available.
At the tone, please record your message.

Speaker 7 But then something unexpected happened. Nick's sister called Payne, and what she said flipped everything.

Speaker 8 Hello. Hey, is this Nick?

Speaker 1 Speaking, correct.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about Joseph's truck.

Speaker 1 Oh, is this that, uh, what's his name? Doing a

Speaker 1 podcast?

Speaker 17 The podcast. Yes.

Speaker 1 Where do I start it? Um,

Speaker 1 what about his truck, like? What do you mean?

Speaker 8 I was told that she thinks that you moved his truck.

Speaker 1 I didn't touch his truck. No, why would I? I don't even know the guy.
I wouldn't even feel comfortable touching it.

Speaker 8 Why would she say something like that, you think?

Speaker 1 You would have to ask her. I don't know.

Speaker 8 Is that surprising to you?

Speaker 1 I haven't talked to my sister in a while, so.

Speaker 8 Did you know Kevin?

Speaker 1 I knew Kevin, yes. I know Kevin.
Correct.

Speaker 1 I used to be married to Kimberly Disclaimer.

Speaker 1 At the time, she was my girlfriend. We were driving on the Council Road, heading back to Nome

Speaker 1 and I noticed Joseph Balduris's truck.

Speaker 1 I seen Joseph Balduris in the car.

Speaker 1 I couldn't recall

Speaker 1 who is with him. I don't recall.
And they were heading towards council.

Speaker 8 What day would that have been?

Speaker 1 Oh, man, it's been so long. I don't even know.

Speaker 8 But it was that weekend he went missing?

Speaker 1 It was before he went went missing, though. That Saturday or Sunday, we took a ride towards Council

Speaker 1 right where his truck was parked. I noticed it right there.

Speaker 1 As we passed that truck,

Speaker 1 we ended up stopping at East Fork because there was a herd of muskox.

Speaker 1 At East Fork Bridge, one of the longer killing twins was at the br underneath the bridge in the river.

Speaker 1 Mikey and John, I don't know what they were doing. I don't know if they were fishing or whatnot, and then we went about our way.

Speaker 1 The bridge is a little bit further past,

Speaker 1 right where Joseph Oversea's truck was parked. The bridge is, I don't know, about half a mile from where his truck was parked, I'd say.

Speaker 1 I don't know too much about it. I tried to stay out of it.
My main focus my main focus, because I I have kids with Kimberly Desquaref, my main focus is my three kids.

Speaker 8 Were these kids of yours the ones that were supposed to be on the beach with Christine that day?

Speaker 8 As we were driving out of town

Speaker 8 Saturday,

Speaker 8 I didn't notice my kids on the beach, but I wasn't really paying attention.

Speaker 8 At the time, me and Kim were having difficulty time focusing on what's in the best interest for our kids. Today, now we're doing, we communicate very well for the best interest of our kids.
Right.

Speaker 8 You said that you saw someone in Joseph's truck with him.

Speaker 8 Yes, yes. Male or female? Yes.

Speaker 1 Oh, definitely a male. I just don't know who.
I can't remember who.

Speaker 1 Even my current wife, guys remember me talking about it. I just can't picture the face.
I don't know who it was.

Speaker 1 When all that was going on, my communication with the Pesquia family was very, very minimal.

Speaker 7 Payne hit a brick wall when he tried to call Nick back. So he came up with a plan.

Speaker 8 Hello. How are you doing?

Speaker 1 I am doing how about you?

Speaker 8 I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker 8 Do you have five minutes?

Speaker 1 Yes, I do.

Speaker 8 I just called your brother about five minutes ago and

Speaker 8 he shut me down immediately. From my perspective, it looks like he has something to hide or he knows a particular detail.

Speaker 1 Every time I ask him, it was always a cold shoulder from him.

Speaker 1 And him and Kim were still married at the time

Speaker 1 when Joseph was missing.

Speaker 1 He's not being truthful about that because every time I would ask him about it, you know, when it was up, he always gave me that cold shoulder and not anything that he's not going to talk about.

Speaker 1 These were his words that he would say to me.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to get into this with you. He knows that.

Speaker 1 I can get it out of him. But when he tells me that, I don't want to interfere.

Speaker 1 You know what they have going on? Because their babies, I mean, their kids are thriving. They're doing good.

Speaker 8 But you also have Joseph Balderis' family going on 10 years, not knowing what happened to their son in about one month.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 1 I would be doing anything, doing everything if it was you in that situation. And he understands that, but he always, always tells me, Andy Munn, I'm not gonna talk about this with you.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 just from the facts that I've heard and from working at the police department for almost five years, you kind of catch on that, you know, of how to question when you want something out.

Speaker 1 I feel in the bottom of my heart, he's not being fully honest about it. He knows something.

Speaker 1 I always felt like that about him.

Speaker 8 So, here's my idea:

Speaker 8 I think that you should call him right now on three-way.

Speaker 8 I will be on mute and you just tell him that I called you.

Speaker 8 I just called him.

Speaker 8 I would just be curious as to how he even reacts to it.

Speaker 8 Hey,

Speaker 8 Payton Lindsey just called me.

Speaker 8 Paying Lindsay.

Speaker 1 I just got off the phone with him. Yeah, I don't want to talk to that guy.
I just don't feel comfortable talking to him.

Speaker 1 I just want to make sure that you're okay, Nick. Okay, I feel comfortable talking to you.

Speaker 1 And I automatically, what the fuck is going on, you know?

Speaker 1 I only know him from the podcast.

Speaker 1 And, you know, I, you know, know,

Speaker 1 all right, hold on, go on,

Speaker 1 you know what

Speaker 1 this guy is really this guy is really calling up.

Speaker 1 Block him, just block them, block him. No, like, if there's not, I have nothing to hide now.

Speaker 1 I don't want to talk about the game,

Speaker 1 I don't, I don't want to talk about it in the truck. I like me, just being your sister.

Speaker 1 I'm concerned. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 Do I have anything to be concerned about? No, you have nothing to do with it. Do I need to defend my brother in any way?

Speaker 1 There's nothing to be concerned about with me. I'm safe and safe as get.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm more than safe.

Speaker 1 I'm beyond safe.

Speaker 1 I've been taking care of an entire community. me and another individual for the past

Speaker 1 six seven months. Yes, i'm not yes i'm not gonna talk i can't

Speaker 1 i can't i wasn't there on i wasn't there so i can't speak on any of that and i'm not going to if he keeps making another truck yeah

Speaker 7 stay tuned and remember you can follow us at up and vanished on instagram and be sure to follow payne lindsay at payne lindsay on instagram and if you want to discuss any season or any episodes, feel free to hop on our Discord.

Speaker 7 Thanks for listening.

Speaker 2 Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey. Your host is Payne Lindsay.

Speaker 2 The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney. Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsey.

Speaker 2 Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner. Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Speaker 2 Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan. Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik Glenn, and Eric Kintana.
Artwork by Rob Sheridan. Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Speaker 2 Mixed and Mastered by Cooper Skinner. Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Speaker 2 Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team. Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes.

Speaker 2 For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 18 Every story has layers, and sometimes the truth hides in plain sight. I'm Josh Dean, host of Chameleon, the podcast about people who transform, deceive, and survive.

Speaker 18 From con artists to unbelievable yet true occurrences, we dive into stories where nothing is ever quite as it seems. Because to understand the world, you sometimes have to change the way you see it.

Speaker 17 Listen to Chameleon wherever you get your podcasts.