What the Body Reveals

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Tenderfoot TV or Odyssey. this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun.
I'm your host, Payne Lindsey. I'm Mike Rooney, and I've been helping Payne create Up and Vanished since season two.
I usually prefer to be behind the scenes, but Payne is currently dealing with some things, and he really wanted to get these results out.

So, here goes nothing.

For this episode, we wanted to follow up with our polygraph expert, Jessica, and go over all of the charts from John's polygraph test. This was an interesting day.
I was actually in the room next door with the door closed, hiding so that I could record the test with a hidden mic and not affect his answers in any way. We wanted to ensure that John felt comfortable and that he was alone in the room with her while maintaining everyone's safety.
Anyways, here's our follow-up with Jessica. So I did a total of three charts.

You've got to remember, a polygraph machine does not directly detect lies, but rather measures the physiological responses to questions, which are then interpreted by the examiner. It's known worldwide as a lie detector test.
It actually doesn't determine someone's life. We're reading physiological responses to questions.
and then those are interpreted by me or whoever the examiner is. For the accuracy of the interpretation and the effectiveness of polygraph tests in detecting deception.
I mean, obviously, that's still, you know, an ongoing debate. But they use them in law enforcement agencies across the U.S.
You can't become a police officer without passing a polygraph test. And 20 percent of the candidates fail.
So we know that they are effective. But you have to remember that these are physiological responses.
So here's the thing with his breathing. There were questions that I asked and he would almost like hold his breath for a second when it flatlines that's also a sign of deception and his blood pressure would shoot up you can elaborate later like you just have to answer yes or no right when that question is fired off to you that gives the immediate response any delays or any movement after that we're taking that first 15 seconds and that's what we're measuring that's what we're looking at on the polygraph he said did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? He said no.

That showed he was telling the truth.

No deception was indicated.

So in other words, did you tell the truth about law enforcement about everything you know regarding?

He said no, and that one showed deception.

First he said yes, and then he said no.

But that was on the last one he said no, and that did show he was telling the truth. He said yes, and then he said no.
But when he said no, it showed he was telling the truth. It showed he was being forthright and honest.
So did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? No. That right there sets him up for everything.
Because he said no. And that showed he wasn't being deceptive.
So in other words, he's held back on a lot of things probably with law enforcement and with you guys as well. Because he already said no, he didn't tell law enforcement everything he knows about

Florence's disappearance.

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement

about everything you know

regarding Florence's disappearance?

And he said, no,

he's admitting already

that he's holding back that he didn't tell

everything that showed he was telling the truth his body had no reaction regarding deception

because he was clearly saying no I didn't tell them everything he knows more than he's willing

to say then he also was asked have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's

We'll be right back. than he's willing to say.
Then he also was asked, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? That also showed deception because he answered no, but the problem is it's complete conflict with the other question. Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? No.
So he's saying, no, I didn't tell them everything. And that showed he was telling the truth, right? So this other question, have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? When he says no, it showed deception.
And you could almost understand that it's going to show deception because in the previous question, he already said he didn't tell law enforcement everything about Florence's disappearance.

The other one about have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?

Oh, peel up.

He said no.

And he was like really adamant. His physiological responses in his body exploded.
So not only was it just the skin conductor, but the blood pressure and the breathing all just exploded on the chart. So I don't know what he did.

I don't know if he had sex.

I don't know if he had sex

and it was consensual or not consensual.

I don't know if he touched her.

We don't know any of this.

But we do know that when he was asked that question,

this was probably the most dominant question

regarding his reaction

and these physiological changes in his body. So everything on the chart exploded.
His breathing, his blood pressure, and the GSR, the galvanized skin response, the skin conductivity. It showed deception.
Because remember, we're measuring physiological changes in his body with these things hooked up to him the breathing apparatus the skin conductivity those are on his fingertips and with the blood pressure cuff on his arm but this one was the most dominant of everything that was asked of him so again we don't know if he actually had sex with her. We don't know if he did, if it was consensual or not.
But the question was, have you ever had sexual contact with Florence? So, you know, it doesn't have to be sex. It's sexual contact was the question that Payne had given me.
And when he was asked that, his body exploded. And he said no, and he was adamant about it, but his body exploded.
So something occurred between them, but we don't know what because we weren't there. But it definitely showed deception.
Is Florence Opeluk alive? He was like squirming on this one. Remember, yes or no questions, he has to answer with his mouth only with no movement.
So any movement can show deception because that raises things. It can raise your blood pressure, it can change your breathing, and it can also shoot microscopic changes to sweat to the fingertips.
So on this one, he was like, well, I don't know. I don't know how to answer that, blah, blah, blah.
And he was squirming. He said he didn't know, right? So that right there is an indication of deception.
I mean, is she alive? He wasn't able to answer that. Then there was, do you know what happened to Florence? And he said no, and there was deception indicated.
Definitely, the strongest one for me, my favorite out of all of these physiological changes are the winds and sweat, because some people can control their breathing a little even blood pressure you know some people can be calm and i think he started out thinking

because so much time had passed it's been like five years right my feeling regarding him and

and watching his responses to these was i believe that he felt like so much time has passed he would

easily pass a polygraph i i truly believe that

Thank you. I believe that he felt like so much time has passed, he would easily pass a polygraph.
I truly believe that. Ready to level up?

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TNCs apply. You heard all of the things he was saying to me before we even started the test.

He protects women and he's, you know, he was just trying to go overboard on his innocence and what a good guy he is.

And Payne had forewarned me about him. When we asked, do you know what happened to Florence? Deception was indicated when he said no.
So he definitely knows more than he's saying. Also, are there other people involved in her disappearance? That was the other one that he squirmed on.
You know know he didn't know how to answer that so obviously this is a sign of deception did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance he said no that showed he was telling the truth right there he's saying that he's holding back information and then the other one was have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked? And that one showed deception because she obviously said no. So based on the federal guidelines and readings of this polygraph test, it clearly shows deception overall, with the exception of did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance.
He said no. That showed he was telling the truth.
That right there tells you that this guy is holding back. But based on the guidelines on all the other questions, it did show deception.
I mean, I believe he definitely knows more than he's willing to say, and he's definitely not being forthright about it. He's, I think he's possibly a bit of a narcissist.
There's three different types of narcissism, and he falls into a certain category of narcissism and and i think he definitely does not believe his own lies his body reacted so dominant and sharp and i have a feeling that he has probably changed his answers of if he was asked these by law enforcement or anything he's probably changed his answers with them many times as well. But I think that he has a problem telling the truth.
He will not be forthright. I think he knows more.
He knows more than he's telling. So, yeah, he's overall, the guy is very deceptive and such a long time has passed.
Five years is a long time and his body still reacted. On the outside, he acted very, um, yeah, I want to clear my name.
Let's get this over with. But I believe that this guy I truly believed that so much time had passed he would be able to pass a polygraph no matter what the questions were his body told a different story the only question that he told the truth on was when i asked him did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance? And he said no.
That showed he was telling the truth. Everything else showed signs of deception.
That was only everything else showed deception from him. his heart rate, his blood pressure his respiration and his skin

conductivity That was only everything else showed deception from him. His heart rate, his blood pressure, his respiration and his skin conductivity.

All, they didn't just fluctuate.

They shot up so much.

That happens when a person is stressed or, you know, excited.

And his body was doing that. After five years, that's and his body was doing that after five years that's what his body was doing you know when he was asked these questions which is signs of deception I asked questions in between to keep a baseline so I asked him questions in between like have you ever eaten a McDonald's because that shows what his body does when he's telling the truth right and then you ask a relevant question after that and then his body would explode so he definitely had very serious signs of deception He was being the subject.
This guy is, I think he's deceptive. I think he knows a lot more than he knows.
I think that he thought that after all this time, he truly believed that he would pass this easily. And it just, it didn't happen he passed one question and that was did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance when he said no that showed it was telling the truth so out of these questions that was the only one he passed if you or I were hooked up to this polygraph instrument and we know that we were telling the truth about all the questions that were asked, I can tell you this.
When I passed my polygraph from the law enforcement agency I was with, I didn't get up and say, I hope I passed or did I pass? I knew that I'd pass. I didn't ask them, hey, how'd I do? Did I pass? Because I already knew I was telling the truth.
If somebody would have told me, hey, you didn't pass, I would have said, then your machine is broken. Your instrument needs to be recalibrated.
But why would an innocent person ask, hey, so did I pass?

Would an innocent person, you can ask your listeners.

If you told the truth on a polygraph test, why would you have to ask, did I pass?

If we asked you, did you rob the bank last week?

And you said, no, you wouldn't turn around and ask, did I pass?

Because you know you didn't rob the bank, right?

I mean, stress and anxiety are what is measured.

And I believe that you can't isolate them completely,

but you also can't control your internal physiological reactions in your body.

Your body is going to do what it's going to do. Now you've heard the full polygraph tests, the examiners take, and Payne's working on what comes next.
But now you know what we know as far as the results. From here, we're going to pivot a little bit.

Not that long ago, another tip came in regarding Joseph's truck.

This individual reached out to Payne to let him know that someone close to her

saw someone else in Joseph's truck around the time he went missing.

She saw someone in the same area where Joseph's vehicle was parked. And she thought that it was strange that he ended up missing.
I'm probably one of the only people that she's told. I asked her, well, why haven't you said anything? And she got quiet.
I'm a little bit nervous to say anything to her because so much bad things have happened to people in Nome.

And I believe that she doesn't want to get involved because maybe she could be targeted.

She's the only one with that kind of information.

And I told her, I said, you're the only one who knows. You should say something.
And she got quiet. I think she was afraid to get involved.
This person ended up missing. And I said, so you saw him out there and driving a vehicle and she totally denied everything.

I want to say his name is Piscoya.

The only person that they were talking about was him.

She saw him.

She saw him out there, and I think... Who's him?

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TNCs apply. We've heard a lot of stories about Joseph's truck moving, other people driving it, to the point where it seems like it was almost teleporting that weekend.
It's messy. It's hard to know which tip to follow.
But we've never stopped talking to witnesses who may or may not have seen the truck moving that weekend. Sometime last year, Payne called Nick Gray, Kim's ex-husband.
Hey, this is Payne. Uh, okay.
Are you aware of the disappearances of Florence Okpialik and Joseph Balderas? else I can help you with? I don't remember who you are now. I don't need to talk about anything with you at this point.
We're done talking. Thank you.
Your call has been forwarded to voicemail. The person you're trying to reach is not available.
At the tone, please record your message.

But then something unexpected happened.

Nick's sister called Payne, and what she said flipped everything.

Hello?

Hey, is this Nick?

Speaking correct.

Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about Joseph's truck.

Oh, is this that, uh, what's his name? Doing a, uh... The podcast? What do you call it? The podcast.
Yes. Where do I start? Um, what about his truck? Like, what do you mean? I was told that she thinks that you moved his truck.
I didn't touch his truck, no.

Why would I?

I don't even know the guy.

I wouldn't even feel comfortable touching it.

Why would she say something like that, you think?

You would have to ask her.

I don't know.

Is that surprising to you?

I haven't talked to my sister

in a while, so...

Did you know Kevin?

I knew Kevin, yes. I know Kevin.
Correct. I used to be married to Kimberly Piscuilla.
At the time, she was my girlfriend. We were driving on the Council Road, heading back to Nome, and I noticed Joseph Baldurse's truck.
I seen Joseph Baldurse in the car. I couldn't recall who was with him.
I don't recall. And they were heading towards Council.
What day would that have been? Well, man, it's been so long, I don't even know. But it was that weekend he went missing? was perfect.
I noticed it right there. As we passed that truck, we ended up stopping at East Fork because there was an herd of muskox.
At East Fork Bridge, one of the Longatilling twins was underneath the bridge in the river. Mikey and John, I don't know what they were doing.
I don't know if they were fishing or whatnot. And then we went about our way.
The bridge is a little bit further past right where Joseph Overse's truck was parked. The bridge is, I don't know, about half a mile from where his truck was parked, I'd say.

I don't know too much about it. I tried to stay out of it.
My main focus, because I have kids with Kimberly in the square, my main focus is my three kids. Were these kids of yours the ones that were supposed to be on the beach with Christine that day? As we were driving out of town Saturday, I didn't notice my kids on the beach, but I wasn't really paying attention.
At the time, me and Kim were having difficulty time focusing on what's in the best interest for our kids. Today, now, we communicate very well for the best interest of our kids.
Right. You said that you saw someone in Joseph's truck with him.
Yes, yes. Male or female? Yes.
Oh, definitely a male. I just don't know who.
I can't remember who. Even my current wife doesn't remember me talking about it.
I just can't picture the face. I don't know who it was.
When all that was going on, my communication with the Piscuea family was very, very minimal. Payne hit a brick wall when he tried to call Nick back, so he came up with a plan.
Hello? How are you doing? I'm doing good. How about you? I'm doing pretty good.
Do you have five minutes? Yes, I do. I just called your brother about five minutes ago, and he shut me down immediately.
From my perspective, it looks like he has something to hide or he would say to me. I'm not going to get into this with you.
He knows that I could get it out of him. But when he tells me that, I don't want to interfere with what they have going on 10 years, not knowing what happened to their son in about one month.
I know. I would be doing anything, doing everything, if it was you in that situation.
And he understands that, but he always, always talks to me, and I'm not going to talk about this with you. But just from the facts that I've heard, and from working at the police department for almost five years, you kind of catch on that, you know, of how to question when you want something out.
I feel in the bottom of my heart he's not being fully honest about it. He knows something.
I always felt like that about him. So here's my idea.
I think that you should call him right now on three-way.

I will be on mute.

And you just tell him that I called you. I just called him.
I would just be curious as to how he even reacts to it. Hey, hey, Ricky just called me.
Who? Hey, Lindsay. I just got off the phone with him.
Yeah, I don't want to talk to you again. I just don't feel comfortable talking to him.
I just want to make sure that you're okay, Nick. Okay, I feel comfortable talking to you.
I don't feel comfortable talking to him.

It just kind of worried me when he called and said,

hey, I talked to your brother a year,

and I automatically, what the fuck is going on, you know?

I only know him from the podcast.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, I, you know... Wait, how about it?

Oh, hold on, Hold on, hold on.

You know what?

This guy is really, really, really calling something.

Block him, just block him.

Block him.

No, like, I have nothing to hide in there.

I don't want to talk about the guy.

I don't.

I don't want to talk about the truck. I don't.
I don't want to talk about the guy.

You just messaged me in the truck.

I like me just being your sister.

I'm concerned.

Do I have anything to be concerned about?

Do I need to defend my brother in any way?

There's nothing to be concerned about with me.

I'm safe as get. Okay.
I'm safe as safe as get.

Okay.

I'm more than safe.

I'm beyond safe.

I've been taking care of an entire community, me and another individual, for the past six, seven months.

Yes, I'm not going to talk.

I can't. I wasn't there.
I wasn't there. So I can't speak on any of that.
And I'm not going to. You keep mentioning the truck.
Yeah. Stay tuned.
And remember, you can follow us at UpAndVanish on on Instagram, and be sure to follow Payne Lindsey at PayneLindsey on Instagram. And if you want to discuss any season or any episodes, feel free to hop on our Discord.
Thanks for listening. Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey.
Your host is Payne Lindsay. The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.
Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay. Lead producer is Mike Rooney along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.
Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington. Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.
Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanique Glenn, and Eric Quintana. Artwork by Rob Sheridan.
Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Mix and Mastered by Cooper Skinner.
Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and The Nord Group. Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team.
Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes. For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv.
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