Oregon Jon’s Polygraph Test

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Thank you so much for listening.

Let me start by saying this.

I know what you're thinking.

A polygraph test?

Yeah, I know.

They're not admissible in court.

They've been debated for decades.

And depending on who you ask, they're either a breakthrough tool or complete junk science.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

A polygraph isn't an answer.

It's just a tool.

a way to measure how your body reacts when you're asked a question.

That's it.

I'm not here to convince you of its accuracy.

In fact, anyone out there rolling their eyes right now, I see you.

Because honestly, I'm just as dubious as you are.

I've never been someone who thinks the polygraph test is some sort of holy grail.

I take them all with a grain of salt.

And that's why the context and the circumstances surrounding what you're about to hear are very important to remember.

And please, hear me clearly.

John asked for this himself.

He wanted to take this test himself.

He wanted us to film it.

He wanted you guys to see and to hear it.

John wasn't paid to do this.

He wants to simply clear his name.

And as for me and the family of Florence Akpialik, we just want the truth.

I'm sure like many of you, I thought there was no way he'd actually go through with this.

Surely he was bluffing.

But he wasn't.

Not one bit.

And that in itself already stands for something in my book.

And if we're going to do this polygraph test, we have to do it right.

By the book, no shortcuts, no pressure, just clean data.

Whatever that even means.

So let's talk facts.

According to some studies, it's claimed that under ideal conditions, Polygraph tests can be up to 85 to 90% accurate.

But the National Academy of Sciences also warns there can be serious flaws in false positives.

But let's also talk history.

False confessions, malicious police tactics, misused results.

We've all heard this.

There's a dark side of this tool too.

So no, this is not a verdict.

This isn't science fiction.

This is just more information.

Data.

Take it or leave it.

Because when you're trying to figure out if someone's telling the truth, sometimes the best thing is to just look them in the eye and ask them.

From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, this is Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun.

I'm your host, Payne Lindsay.

What I worry about is scientifically, what she's going to say is that there needs to be a control situation where if he sees camera equipment, it's going to stress him out more and give more of an opportunity for people to say, you got a false positive.

So the less that there's infra obstruction between him and the polygrapher, the more true the data is going to be.

What if you don't even see him at first and he just meets the polygrapher and you only see him after the real test?

So if you set it up that way, you get the best possible results because he's not going to see you until after the real test.

My producer Dylan and I have been going back and forth on this for about a week straight.

A polygraph test isn't just a yes or no decision.

It's a domino.

One that, once pushed, could fall in any direction.

And the scary part,

we won't know which way until it's already too late.

What if John fails miserably, like really fails?

Would he start to unravel in front of us?

That's not being dramatic, that's just being real.

What I've learned throughout the years is that when you corner someone who's hiding something, there's truly no telling what they might do next.

Especially if they feel they're at the end of their road and maybe have nothing else to lose.

At the same time, if he passes, public perception could shift instantly.

We might even start second-guessing things ourselves.

Now, it wouldn't take away from all the other crimes he's committed, especially those towards women, which we do have the court documents for, but that's how powerful this moment could be, regardless of anyone's personal opinion of the science behind it.

Let's come up with what we think are the hard-hitting questions and what could be a resolution to something.

We care about the data.

We're going to be by the book about that.

I don't want to have any sway.

I want to set up the scenario that is an authentic result.

We flew in a 20-year polygraph expert from Los Angeles to Portland.

Her name is Jessica,

and she definitely knows her shit.

Absolutely.

We had a hotel room set aside for the test.

And she began unpacking all her gear.

Every cord,

every sensor,

every pulse.

And I'm just watching.

Slowly feeling the gravity sink in.

The knees will go across this upper and lower chest.

So big.

And this is the same polygraph

that federal and law enforcement agencies use.

Meanwhile, I keep refreshing my phone,

waiting for Oregon John's text.

He just landed in Portland, too.

And the blood pressure cup.

I've done dozens and dozens of interviews.

I've talked to murder suspects, even serial killers.

I've walked into some pretty dark places.

But this, today,

was making me feel a new kind of nervous.

Because this wasn't just a conversation.

This was a psychological reaction.

In between each question, we have to allow 20 seconds at least for his body to calm down from each question.

They're also going to be peppered in with some controlled questions.

So you've got relevant questions then I need to pepper in some controlled questions or known truths.

Remember this is a lie detector, it's not a truth detector, so your body doesn't react to something like, if I ask you if your favorite color is red but it's really blue and you say yes, there's no consequence for that, right?

It only reacts to relevant questions where you might lie, like, did you rob the bank last night?

And you say no, but you really did, it would react to your microscopic changes in your body chemistry.

And these will go across this upper and lower chest, stomach.

And this is the same polygraph

that federal and law enforcement agencies use for both their law enforcement officers and

suspects.

I'm going to turn this on.

I'm not going to leave it running because it will freeze if you leave it running.

So, in terms of the questions, they have to be yes or no, right?

Something you can answer with a yes or a no, with your mouth only.

So, you want to have this person sit like a statue for not more than four or five minutes.

We're going to pepper in the relevant questions with some controlled questions or known truths so that we keep a good baseline of what his body does when he's telling the truth.

So that when he's asked a relevant question, we can see his internal reaction.

The last time I saw John, I was undercover.

I catfished him and I was about to meet him face to face for the first time as the real me.

No masks, no fake names.

Everything seemed to be going smoothly.

Almost too smoothly.

I check my phone again.

John is now in his Uber.

eight minutes away.

Some people can control to a certain extent maybe their breathing or something, but you can't control everything.

One way or another, your breathing will react or your blood pressure or the internal sweat that's quirked to your fingertips.

But you have to give the body time to calm down between each question.

That's why you're asked controlled questions in between or known truths in between.

You don't want to just keep them elevated.

That defeats the purpose.

You will not get an accurate reading like that.

So four relevant or questions of importance, each chart covered in with the controlled questions or the known truths.

ETA, two minutes.

I'm about to meet John in the hotel lobby.

It's time to put my game face on and finish what I started.

And right before I headed down, Jessica had one last question for me.

You want to administer the questions or me?

Buy the book.

I would like you to.

Okay.

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This is my friend Elizabeth, by the way.

Hi.

But yeah,

I meet John in the lobby.

He walked in cool, calm, cheery almost.

So, when's the last time you were actually in Oregon?

Maybe even a little bit cocky.

But confidence isn't truth.

It's also sometimes a mask people wear when they want to control the room.

Probably a lot similar to the one I'm wearing right now.

So,

this was it.

The wires, the questions, the silence.

It's strange.

Watching a man walk into a room to be judged by machines.

And you start to ask yourself, do I even want the truth?

Am I afraid of what it actually might confirm?

Then you have the flip side.

Two years into an investigation the police gave up on,

a missing Alaska Native woman, Florence Akpialik, and the person who last saw her alive, as we know it, is about to sit down in the hot seat.

There's no turning back now,

and so the test begins.

Are you ready to start the test?

Yes.

Okay.

Is today Friday?

No.

Okay.

Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell?

Yes.

Okay.

Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Aqueduct?

No.

Do you know what happened to Florence?

No.

In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

Yes.

Do you know how to make pancakes?

Yes.

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Yes.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

Yes.

You heard it.

There it is.

But here's the twist.

If you watched this first on Instagram live last week, you didn't see the whole thing.

This was by design.

For the best interest of all parties here, what you saw and what you just listened to was actually a second polygraph test.

That's because during the first test, we took extreme measures to ensure that John was in the least stressful environment possible.

No me, no cameras in his face, no lights, no added pressure, just John, Jessica, and the polygraph machine.

So, let's rewind a bit.

Back to the first test.

This test happened immediately after me bringing John upstairs.

She'll explain everything, and I'm just gonna let you guys do your thing.

I've actually done more stress analysis, too.

Oh, okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Say thank you again for doing this.

And take your time.

Sure.

We will be all here.

I just want, I want to be

able to do it.

You know what I'm saying?

Cool.

I don't want to be like staring over your shoulder or something.

You know what I'm saying?

Y'all can both text me if you need me.

We'll just be

able to it, okay?

Yeah.

All right.

You know, I used to work for government and stuff.

I had to take a couple these and you know, just to even get hired.

I was a contractor and I worked for the Census Department.

Oh, okay.

Then you're familiar with

Quantico and got a profiler job.

Oh wow.

I worked at Guantomano for three years.

My religious beliefs, I help a lot of people that are in bad situations.

That's how this situation arose.

And I asked for this.

Okay.

Because I've been being harassed, you know, and people just believe the worst.

I live in a small town of 2,000.

We have tourists.

It's Catch Can, Alaska.

Oh.

This originally happened in Nome, Alaska, which only has 1,200 people.

Therefore, the rumor mill in very small towns.

Yes.

You know, I've been assaulted.

I've been run off the road.

Oh, my God.

I have to carry a firearm everywhere I go up there.

The police know about it.

They've had to respond multiple times.

They already did their own investigation.

You know, and it's...

And what happened with that one?

Did they, were you cleared?

Well, they can't find anything on me.

There's no current case.

Oh.

You know, so known PD, they called them.

They don't even really remember who I am even.

All right.

Well, are you ready for a polygrop test today?

Oh, yeah.

So,

no drugs, no alcohol.

I did have a half a drink on the plane yesterday here.

That was about two.

That's okay.

My question would be: are you hydrated with water?

I just drink about two or three of these a day.

Holy cow.

I'm also a merchant seaman.

Which, that's a lot of background checks.

I volunteered for this and he seemed kind of shocked.

That's good.

You know, because they

don't know.

No, no, no, it was cool.

Yeah, I don't know anything about that.

I'm just brought in.

He's just giving me the opportunity to completely clear my head.

And that's why I'm here.

Well, we'll do the test.

We'll do a test without him in here and then when we're done.

So I've been doing this since the 1990s.

I'm going to ask you a series of questions.

And in between each question, we're going to to give you like 20 seconds.

There's four relevant questions I'm going to ask you regarding this case and then it'll be peppered in with some controlled questions or what we know as known truths like is the sky blue along with a couple of

questions that are meant to embarrass you like

have you ever sold change out of your parents wallet when you were a little boy or you know something like that just

it's just

correct so you're very familiar with this so I'm gonna hook you up to the equipment and it's gonna be an upper lower thoracic which is your breathing measures your breathing uh along with a blood pressure cuff and gsr which is a galvanized skin response which we will put on your fingertips so you're gonna just answer yes or no and you're gonna sit like a statue for like four or five minutes at the most um i won't we'll do that and then after the first chart we can call cane in and then and don't move so make sure you don't move okay like i said you're gonna sit like a statue so are you ready

okay so i'm gonna you don't need to stand up or anything.

I'm gonna get this chain around you.

Keep on going over your head.

I'm gonna lean back a little bit farther.

Okay.

And I want it snug, but not too tight.

One more, and then you can put your arms down.

I'm gonna put this on your arm for the blood pressure.

And then leave this hand here, and I will put piece on here.

So I appreciate you volunteering for this.

Well, too, it'll help.

the investigation concentrate on where it should be.

There you go.

See, that's good.

You're doing another good deed.

And you can just relax right there, okay?

Take a deep breath from me.

Are you ready to start the test?

Yes.

Okay.

Is today Sunday?

Yes.

Have you ever eaten at McDonald's?

Yes.

All right, this is a relevant question.

Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Akrilak?

No.

Have you ever flown on an airplane?

Yes.

Is Florence Akpiluck alive?

Unknown.

Do you know how to ride a bike?

Yes.

In the last year, have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and lied to get out of a ticket?

No.

Okay.

Do you know what happened to Florence?

No.

Are there other people involved in her disappearance?

Unknown.

Did you ever sneak out of the house when you were a little boy?

Turn on me.

Doesn't matter.

It's not a relevant question.

Yes or no, did best of your

no.

Okay.

Okay.

That is...

That is the end of our first chart.

Alright, so that chart was stopped.

I'm going to start a new chart.

Are you comfortable?

You want to drink the water anymore?

I took a couple while we were talking.

Okay.

All right, got your breathing.

Got your blood pressure.

All right.

Are you ready to start the test?

Yes.

Have you ever eaten a Taco Bell?

Yes.

Okay.

Got a lot of

Okay.

Do you know how to ride a bicycle?

Yes.

Okay.

Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence Auckley?

No.

Have you ever ridden on a train?

Yes.

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Yes.

When you were a teenager, did you ever steal from a grocery store?

Yes.

Do you know how to ride a horse?

Yes.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

No.

Do Do you know what happened to Florence?

No.

Before today, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

Yes.

All right.

We're done with this charge.

I'm going to let Payne know.

So have you told the truth about everything that you know about Florence?

Company back on.

No, I should ask.

Oh, yes.

Jessica sent me a text asking me to come back inside.

Oh god, what is it now?

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What happened was

I gave her a ride.

I met her earlier through my girlfriend.

Yeah, we have a timer, so we only need 20 to 30 seconds of

a question

to give his body time to settle down and react.

Yeah, so, I mean, they're federal standardized polygraphs, so you can only keep someone hooked up for so long.

Yeah, right.

Pumping up there.

Or it's becoming ridiculous.

Yeah, so now

the third set.

Here came the first monkey wrench.

John felt that some of the questions I prepared for him were unfair.

Because in a polygraph test, you must answer yes or no questions only.

And I agreed with him.

Because if he doesn't actually know something, then he couldn't really answer yes or no.

So on the fly right there in the room, I quickly made up two new questions.

I showed Jessica, she approved, and then John began asking why we weren't filming this test.

I explained it to him that I wanted to give him an opportunity to take this polygraph without all the theatrics, even admitting to him that it'd probably make me nervous too.

But I stepped out once more so they could finish the first test.

To me, that would feel like nerve-wracking get cameras out of my face kind of thing.

I was kind of actually expecting that.

No, no, I was and I was kind of hoping for it.

So that the

best.

So I'm not, I'm not, that's why I'm here now.

Right.

Because I wanted to give you more data.

Yeah.

So

my point here is for everyone to know that this actually is.

So this one I'll be here.

I won't say anything, but I'm going to film this one.

Shek will get in card.

So here we go.

Round two, I guess.

John wants this next one filmed.

No problem.

We had to adjust two of the questions.

So once they were back set up, I left the room once more to let them finish.

But now we at least have two sets of data to compare by the end of all these sessions.

He respected that.

And I also respected the fact that he wanted the world to see him for his own vindication.

I left the room once more to let them finish the test.

And once they were done, we planned on filming the next one.

I sat down at this tiny table and positioned myself quietly at the edge, pulled out my iPhone, and just started filming.

Are you ready to start the test?

Yes.

Is today Friday?

No.

Okay.

Have you ever eaten a taco bounce?

Yes.

Okay.

Have you ever had sexual contact with Florence?

Awkward luck?

No.

Have you ever ridden on a train?

Yes.

Do you know what happened to Florence?

No.

In the last year, have you ever lied to a police officer to get out of serious trouble?

Yes.

Do you know how to make pancakes?

Yes.

Did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

Yes.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

Yes.

You heard this test already in the very beginning of the episode.

But it wasn't until 24 hours later, once I got back home, thousands of miles away from here, that I noticed something very odd from the first test he took with Jessica.

After all, I wasn't in the room.

So, this was the first time I had heard any of the audio from it.

This is where start to unravel a bit.

Let's go back to that first test, the one where I'm not there.

It's just the two of them.

And let's rewind back to that very last question.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

No.

Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked?

Pretty straightforward, in my opinion.

His answer the first time, when I was not in the room, was no.

Meaning, no, he has not withheld any information regarding Florence to anyone else who's asked.

Not the police, anyone, including me.

Okay, but what's stranger is that during the second test, the one where I'm there, literally sitting across the table,

he has a completely different answer.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked?

Yes.

Yes?

So you are withholding information?

He was asked the same question twice.

And it wasn't a complicated one.

First test, no.

Second test, oddly enough, when when I'm in the room with him, his answer is yes.

This wasn't a polygraph reading.

This wasn't a twitch in the needle.

It was a verbal contradiction.

You heard it, even if I try to play devil's advocate here and come up with a million reasons why he answered the questions differently.

The irony behind all of this makes everything different.

Have you withheld information from anyone else who's asked?

That very question is the sole reason John is here in the first place.

Because John has sworn to me up and down, for hours upon hours on the phone, that he has in fact told me all he knows, which is why he came here today.

To prove to me, and anyone else, that that's true.

So what is he holding back?

Anything?

Was it just a word slip-up?

Take the polygraph out entirely.

And what you have is a man giving two completely different answers to the same question within a 20-minute 20-minute period.

A question that's tethered to the entire reason he's here today.

Hmm.

Before we packed up, I gave John the chance to say, well, whatever he'd like to, on record.

To the family, the community, you guys.

I want to give you the opportunity just to say

why you chose to do this today, your piece, and so people can see that.

And

whatever you want to to add

also want to say thank you for being a man of your word

I just like you want to move on through life and keep searching for the truth

truth is very important to me it's part of my beliefs and my religion and everything and the reason

to be honest the biggest reason why I wanted to do this was to give my life a little peace

Flo and Flo's family deserves

to know

that this

area here is not,

you know, to concentrate, to be able to look at other places

because as long as suspicion is upon me,

it's not going to be looked at in other places or as much.

I don't want to be barking up the wrong tree either.

Yeah, and nobody deserves anything like this to happen to them.

And if anything I can do to help,

I have to.

Well, thanks again, ma'am.

I'm glad it was a relief.

Did I pass?

The question we all want to know, right?

But let's talk for a second here.

I know how split the audience will be.

on any polygraph result at all.

If you're someone who firmly believes it's all junk science, or if you're someone who has a lot of faith in this test for whatever reason, or you're somewhere in the middle, I want you to ask yourself right now, will these results do anything for you?

Or have you already made up your mind?

I told Jessica to hold off on telling anyone, even myself, what the results were.

until the entire test was over and everyone was out of that building and back in a safe place.

A few hours later, after she had a chance to review the charts, I came back in and asked myself.

And before you hear this, I want you to remember everything I've said about polygraph tests.

They're debated amongst the science community.

Inadmissible in court.

It's just a tool.

Remember that.

Now,

what's your reaction going to be?

Some deception.

You can wait until things.

of course yeah i'll wait so i don't have to repeat yeah yeah

but i mean good for him coming in to do it

so what we think so let me look at the let me pull these up so i can accurately um even though i know some off the top of my head

So

did you tell the truth to law enforcement about everything you know regarding Florence's disappearance?

There were signs of deception.

Have you withheld any information about Florence from anyone who's asked on that one?

There were signs of deception.

And I think you moved on that one too, so

I can't say with 100% accuracy because of the movement that he did.

Have you ever had sex contact with Florence?

Definitely.

And the two that were the ones where we had to change that is Florence alive,

he was hem highing and he didn't know how to answer it.

He wanted to confirm yes or no.

Correct.

I get that.

And also the one where are there other people involved in her disappearance, it was showing deception, even though But he was also moving, he was hem high because he wasn't sure how to answer it.

Didn't he also answer yes to one of the questions?

He did.

He did answer yes.

So

to a question about withholding information.

Right, so that's why I was going to say.

So the first time he didn't, but the second time he did.

I don't know.

So when I was in here, he said yes.

So when he said yes, that one was true that he withheld information.

He failed failed questions.

Big ones in fact.

He contradicted himself.

He spiked off the charts when asked about having sexual contact with Florence.

Which is strange enough considering sex itself isn't a crime unless it was non-consensual.

So, I'm going to let that resonate with you.

It is what it is.

But next week, I'll have Jessica on the podcast to further explain in detail all this data from the tests.

And as for me, a major question still remains.

What does John still know that he's not telling me about Florence?

Or does he have a good explanation for why he lied about it?

What you heard today was real.

What it all means, part of that's up to you.

Stay tuned next week for another episode of Up and Vanished Vanished in the Midnight Sun.

And thank you again to John for being a man of your word and making the effort to do this in the first place.

Our investigation into Florence and Joseph isn't over.

Don't you guys know me by now?

We have even more new information that is going to change everything.

I'm looking at it on my computer screen right now.

But it's not for clicks, y'all.

One step at a time.

The truth is what I care about.

See you next week.

Up and Vanished in the Midnight Sun is a production of Tenderfoot TV in association with Odyssey.

Your host is Payne Lindsay.

The show is written by Payne Lindsay with additional assistance from Mike Rooney.

Executive producers are Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay.

Lead producer is Mike Rooney, along with producers Dylan Harrington and Cooper Skinner.

Editing by Mike Rooney and Cooper Skinner with additional editing by Dylan Harrington.

Supervising producer is Tracy Kaplan.

Additional production by Victoria McKenzie, Alice Kanik Glenn, and Eric Quintana.

Artwork by Rob Sheridan.

Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set.

Mixed and Mastered by Cooper Skinner.

Thank you to Oren Rosenbaum and the team at UTA, Beck Media and Marketing, and the Nord Group.

Special thanks to all of the families and community members that spoke to the team.

Additional information and resources can be found in our show notes.

For more podcasts like Up and Vanished, search Tenderfoot TV on your favorite podcast app or visit us at tenderfoot.tv.

Thanks for listening.