How to Survive This Absurd Life with Samantha Irby (Best Of)

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Speaker 1 Hello, sweet world.

Speaker 1 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I think today we'll call this We Can Do Funny Things

Speaker 1 because we have one of the funniest people in the universe here. Someone, the three of us love to high heavens.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So first of all, I'll just tell you, we have Sam Irby here.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 1 Laugh out loud, author. All right.
Samantha Irby writes the Bitches Gotta Eat blog and is the author of Wow, No Thank You, We Are Never Meeting in Real Life and Meaty.

Speaker 1 She has been a writer and or co-producer for TV shows, including And Just Like That,

Speaker 1 Work in Progress, Shrill,

Speaker 1 and Tuka and Bertie.

Speaker 1 Sam Irby. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me on your incredible show.

Speaker 2 I am very intimidated. I'm going to do my best to sound like cool and relaxed, but I'm nervous.

Speaker 1 Okay, so let's get the cool out of the way right away because what I want to start with, Sam, is our friendship origin story, which is my favorite story in the world.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Sam and I did an event together. At the end of the event, I loved her so much.
I sent her my phone number,

Speaker 1 an email.

Speaker 1 Months and months later, lo, so many months later, I am sitting in France at the World Cup.

Speaker 2 Okay. Next to my wife, as you do.

Speaker 1 Right. I'm at the soccer as per usual, but it's a big soccer.
Okay. Like the biggest soccer.
It's the biggest soccer. Like the Super Bowl of soccer, the Oscars of soccer, if you will.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 The Grammys. I mean, also, it's just the World Cup.
The Grammys of the soccer. The World Cup is, it's a standalone event.
Okay. This is what everything else compares to.

Speaker 1 So like the Tonys, like like the Tony's. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 Just go with the story.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I get a text.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And it says something like the following. Hello, Glennon.
I'm sorry to escalate our friendship on text in this way, but I'm in emergency. I'm sitting in a room full of people.

Speaker 1 And I may have told the people that I'm very good friends with you and Abby.

Speaker 1 And now. They are calling me on it and asking me to call you.
So can you please answer your phone and act like we're good friends?

Speaker 1 i mean i mean do you remember abby sitting there being like well now she's our favorite person in the entire instance instant

Speaker 2 i try to lead with honesty even when it's humiliating i don't even i remember i remember it exactly i was in the work in progress writer's room and someone mentioned you two and like to be cool i was like oh you mean my friends and they were like

Speaker 2 and then I had to text you and be like um please

Speaker 2 could you act like we're best friends so that I can impress these people who think I'm a huge liar and

Speaker 2 you did and they were impressed

Speaker 1 of course we were sending pictures like we can't believe you couldn't come with us

Speaker 1 Here's your extra seat. This game sucks without you.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I've loved you ever since that moment.

Speaker 1 Okay, so Sam, we want to start this interview with one of our favorite questions, which is this.

Speaker 1 It was a question that Rachel Elizabeth asked, and it was this: Did you have a happy childhood or are you funny?

Speaker 2 I'm funny.

Speaker 2 Take that to mean what you will, but no, no. Let's say I'm very very funny.

Speaker 1 Got it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Isn't that like the best question though?

Speaker 2 It's a really good question. And it's totally, I know it's a trope, but it's totally true.

Speaker 2 Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point where you're like, okay, what's your damage? Like, where did this come from? Do our damages match?

Speaker 2 Or can I learn something new about another way you can be fucked up?

Speaker 2 you know it's like i have my way what's your way how did you get here and usually it's some like terrible trauma but because you're talking to a funny person they make it funny and you're like oh what happened who died who got hit by a what and then you're like cracking up and then later it's like oh man i'm really glad that I got to know that person, but also am I an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me in a funny way?

Speaker 2 I people say that to me. They'll be like, you know, when you talk about your childhood, it makes me really sad.
But also, I really laugh. Is that okay? And I'm like,

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 2 I want you to. I laugh.
It's the only way that I'm okay is if I can like laugh about it.

Speaker 1 What went down that you had to get funny for?

Speaker 2 Well, I think, so I grew up super poor, but in a like weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who

Speaker 2 had

Speaker 2 money and parents. And when you're a kid, you don't really have any idea of who has what.
You just know like what you don't have.

Speaker 2 For me, I had to find a way to sort of,

Speaker 2 I was going to say rationalize, but that's not the way. To like see what I lacked.
and not feel bad about it. Right.
So it's like, I don't have all of this stuff.

Speaker 2 My mom was really sick, and then she went into a nursing home, and then I bounced around in like foster homes and stuff. And it's like, I this has to be funny or it'll kill me.

Speaker 2 I think that's my philosophy to this day. It's like, even in the most bleak of circumstances,

Speaker 2 I have to find like the joke in order to keep going.

Speaker 2 Because I am not a

Speaker 2 traditionally hopeful person,

Speaker 2 right? I'm like, oh,

Speaker 2 I guess I can make it. And so the laughter sort of keeps the, I guess I can make it going.

Speaker 1 It's so interesting because some people have, a lot of us have the like, it'll get better. So

Speaker 1 the optimism, we get through because we tell ourselves it's going to get better. But your theory has always been, No, I can just make the next five minutes more bearable.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I can laugh at this thing at so my both my parents died when i was 18 not together um

Speaker 2 which would have been uh cheaper

Speaker 2 more emotionally more emotionally economical

Speaker 2 for me um

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 at my mom's funeral so like i was like 18 i didn't even barely have a brain at 18 right i couldn't deal with grief but i also couldn't deal with people like looking at me because you know everyone's always looking at you.

Speaker 2 You're the star of the movie. And so we were at her funeral, and it was like really sad.
And my sisters and I are sitting in the front row. And

Speaker 2 the minister who was performing the service didn't know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at her, the church she went to. And my sister's name is Carmen.

Speaker 2 And he kept referring to my mom as Carmen.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh and when i tell you i was screaming laughing like by the end by like the fourth time

Speaker 2 i was

Speaker 2 falling over in the pew laughing and my sisters were laughing and i was just like okay this is how we get through this right like it's terrible and we're gonna have to like sort through her stuff and figure out how much debt she was in and all that stuff but to get through that moment we just were like crying, laughing at this dude.

Speaker 2 And like, Carmen, I mean, I felt bad for her because,

Speaker 2 like, he kept.

Speaker 2 I was like, shouldn't you climb in there? Like, pointing to the casket. She was just like, I'm going to beat your ass after this funeral.
You have to find the one. absurd thing and just like

Speaker 2 cling to that till you get through to a good place.

Speaker 1 Can I just say your

Speaker 1 laughter, the way you laugh, it's me happy.

Speaker 2 Me too. I feel happy.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Wow. What you just described at the funeral, this is my whole question about humor.
Is humor a way to deflect and hide from reality? Or is it actually

Speaker 1 the most real reality? Because it's like everything is absurd all the time. Even the very sorrowful things are outrageously absurd.

Speaker 1 So are we like using it as a shield of armor to protect us from reality? Or is it actually the most active engagement with reality is to be like, this shit is funny.

Speaker 2 For me, I feel like it's the most active way to interact with reality. Although I would say, okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself.
And I think like that developed early, right?

Speaker 2 Because I was like, I've always been a little fat kid with buck teeth, right? And nobody is charitable to you when that's

Speaker 2 you.

Speaker 2 And so I, my, my defense mechanism was always like, let's beat them to the joke. Where I grew up, I grew up in Evanston, which is just north of Chicago.
It's where Northwestern is.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it still exists, but when I was growing up, there was this like community donation place called Eska.

Speaker 2 And all of the fancy people would like donate their clothes there. And those of us who were not fancy would get clothes from there.
And because I was like a fat kid, I

Speaker 2 would always be like wearing someone's like dad's golf shirt to school. Right.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 one day this girl was like, I think that's my dad's shirt.

Speaker 2 And I could have, you know, like in the movie version I would like you know melt into a puddle and there would be some sort of lesson but I was like

Speaker 2 he has great taste and the pits still smell like him you know like something disgusting but funny

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 she was disarmed and I didn't feel bad for being poor. We just like had that moment.
And so it has served to protect me in that way.

Speaker 2 But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in

Speaker 2 a more real way, I think when you are always looking for the absurd thing,

Speaker 2 you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? It's like,

Speaker 2 okay, this sucks, but I'm going to dig through all the suck to see what's funny about it. I think it makes like going through life less scary, you know? Like, and I can't like a super anxious person.

Speaker 2 If I look in the rearview mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it's chasing me. I mean, like anxious for real.

Speaker 2 But my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it and then pick out the part that'll make me laugh.

Speaker 2 We'll see how successful that continues to be as the world crumbles. But so far, so far, it's worse.
It's worse.

Speaker 1 I have a quick follow-up to that.

Speaker 1 So in the shirt situation yeah the funniness gets you through that moment right because you're disarming her you're disarming you you're taking it away but is the underlying

Speaker 2 oh i want to die yeah you still have to deal with the underlying stuff right absolutely oh yes you know like underneath that it's like i hate my mom for being poor i hate my body for not fitting into cute things like no under the surface i don't know that anyone would think i was like a flighty, frivolous person,

Speaker 2 but under the surface of the funny is like, you know, molten lava of rage, right? And disappointment and hurt and all of these things that like I was born into are not my fault.

Speaker 2 Like that's always there.

Speaker 2 But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn't get out of bed, right? Like I would just be like, oh,

Speaker 2 why, why was I put on earth to suffer?

Speaker 1 so i'll make the jokes and uh but it's like fueled by the the rage lava within it's like the stereotyping of comedians in the world right like how so many comedians have this like low level rage running underneath all of their jokes like to me it's their way of coping but i also wonder for you, how are you actually like dealing with that stuff that's actually underneath it?

Speaker 1 Like, what are things that you're doing that make it? Is it good? Is it always a deflection of it?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because you got to look at it, you got to present it, you got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments, even if they're private. Yeah, what's happening with the lava?

Speaker 2 Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work. Like, that's the beauty of writing about myself is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it.

Speaker 2 I just,

Speaker 2 well, I shouldn't say just, for the past year, I've been going to therapy,

Speaker 2 which is interesting.

Speaker 2 Well, you could tell me

Speaker 2 therapy is interesting in general. So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist.

Speaker 2 And I don't like therapy. Let's just say that.
My therapist, the things she tells me are sort of the antithesis of what I do, right? So I fuel myself off my negative thoughts.

Speaker 2 Like my jokes come from there, my writing writing comes from there. My therapist is always like, let's reframe those negative thoughts.
And I'm like, girl, I have.

Speaker 1 Are you going to give me a book deal? Are you going to give me a book deal?

Speaker 2 I just signed a three-book deal, girl. I need these thoughts to be negative.

Speaker 1 It's so complicated because

Speaker 1 your livelihood depends on it in some ways. How do you deal with that? That's a snark.
Are you becoming positive, Sam?

Speaker 2 No. wait until you read that.
I just finished writing one and it's snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy

Speaker 2 and why

Speaker 2 I'm paying all this money to argue with the woman. I mean, we don't argue, but in my head, I'm like, I'm not doing that.
I'm not doing that. I'm not thinking positively about that.

Speaker 2 So it's like a huge waste of time. And I should probably find a different kind of therapy.
But one of the things we're working on is boundaries and knowing when to say no.

Speaker 2 So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I'm going to tell her no.

Speaker 2 Get out of therapy. Okay.

Speaker 1 So is there anything that's been helpful? Have you experienced anything in that room that has been helpful for your lava?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay. So one thing I like to do with her is come up with strategies.
And I've come up with two

Speaker 2 life-changing, earth-shattering strategies. I'm going to give them to you.
I haven't written about them. No one knows.
Okay. My first one is a strategy I call I like it.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I have found, and I'm sure you guys know too, when you say,

Speaker 2 you could say anything. Oh man, that episode of

Speaker 2 9-1-1. I love that show.
That episode of 911 was really great there's always going to be somebody who's like you watch that and it's like

Speaker 2 you know

Speaker 1 yes

Speaker 2 and like people expect you to apologize for what you like it's like strangers are like expecting you to justify your tastes and i have found that if you just say i like it

Speaker 2 It completely kneecaps them, right? That's right. It's so weird.
Once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways I had to get something from a strip mall.

Speaker 2 And this lady was like, oh, that's where you go. I don't have any allegiance to the strip mall, but I don't like this lady making me feel like an asshole.
So I was like, I like it.

Speaker 2 And then she was like, uh, and I was like, yeah, I like it. That strip mall is great.

Speaker 2 Just can't say anything. They're just like,

Speaker 2 so that's strategy one. Strategy two, this one is a little harder and it's more recent.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 when people act like in a way that shows you that they don't like you,

Speaker 2 telling them that you don't think they like you

Speaker 2 is,

Speaker 2 it changes everything. It gets you out of things.

Speaker 2 So I had this interaction with this person that I've known for a long time.

Speaker 2 And this is the thing about like sort of being funny. My humor is always

Speaker 2 projected internally, right? Like I don't pick on people. I don't make fun of people.
I don't care what anybody does. I am the villain of all my stories.
So I pick on myself. I think

Speaker 2 I do.

Speaker 2 I'm like a T-Rex, my tiny arms punching me.

Speaker 2 Don't pick to me with my little arms, my little rock'em sock'em robot arms punching myself.

Speaker 2 And sometimes that gives people,

Speaker 2 they take license and like sort of punch me too.

Speaker 2 And it's like, well, this is a single person game. Like you can laugh at it, but I don't want you to, you know, rag on me all the time.

Speaker 2 So there's this woman who every interaction, she was just like, low-key putting me down. but also being like, haha, we're friends, right?

Speaker 2 And she asked me to hang out. This was a while ago.
She asked me to hang out. And I was like, oh, no, thanks.
And she was like, why?

Speaker 2 And I was like, cause I don't think you like me.

Speaker 2 And she was like, well, and I was like, yeah, I just don't think you like me.

Speaker 2 And she was like, I'm surprised to hear that.

Speaker 2 And she didn't say, I do like you. She said, I'm surprised to hear that.

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 2 I was like, i bet you are surprised to hear that because you just thought i would keep taking it and keep letting you like you know piss in my face and tell me it's raining and

Speaker 2 i just don't think you like me and she the way we ended it she was just like oh okay and i was like okay bye

Speaker 2 wow

Speaker 2 It's worth all the money just for those two strategies alone. Because my therapist is very like,

Speaker 2 I mean, you guys know when you make things for people and you feel

Speaker 2 a duty to your audience, I want to be open to people. I want to engage with people.
I want them to keep, you know, engaging with, i.e., buying the things that I'm trying to sell.

Speaker 1 Engaging with.

Speaker 2 But at some point, you just have to be like, okay,

Speaker 2 okay, I got to set a boundary here. I got gotta say no to this.
I gotta do whatever. It has been very helpful in

Speaker 2 at least in like changing the dynamic of people who talk to me. I mean, I'm sure that there's a deep dive that I'm missing here about like maybe the way I talk about myself should change.

Speaker 2 I'm not ready to conquer that.

Speaker 1 No, we're not there yet.

Speaker 1 You're not letting anybody else punch in, and I love that.

Speaker 2 That's step one is just to find ways to like deflect. So that has been helpful.
But I mean, the rest of therapy, I don't know, we're going to keep going. But

Speaker 2 I don't want to get too fixed, right? Like, no. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think that that's a really important thing to say for those that are listening because you don't have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of it.

Speaker 1 That's really courageous to know, I don't like this, but I've gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about.

Speaker 1 And I'm going to keep going because, like, maybe there will be a third thing. Or go, like, take what you need and then be like, I think you've taken me as far.
I don't want to be fixed all the way.

Speaker 1 I'm out of here.

Speaker 2 I don't want to be fixed all the way. I'm trying to picture her face if I say, I don't want to be fixed all the way.
And just imagining that is going to make me keep going because I don't want to see

Speaker 2 when she's like,

Speaker 2 don't worry.

Speaker 2 You're not even close to me.

Speaker 1 There's not an imminent threat of being fixed.

Speaker 2 Cute that you thought that. Cute that you thought you were improving in any way, but you need to keep seeing me.
Don't worry.

Speaker 1 My therapist's favorite phrase, once a session. There's so much fertile ground here.

Speaker 2 So much fertile ground.

Speaker 2 So yeah. Yeah.
How does it make you feel?

Speaker 1 I'm happy for her because I feel like she's very excited about all the opportunities we have to work on very many things.

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Speaker 1 Speaking of helpful,

Speaker 1 you are the mastermind behind one of the most revolutionary, groundbreaking portrayals

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 1 big women on screen ever.

Speaker 1 And I'm obviously talking about the fat babe pool party episode of Shrill, which became just instant classic, so important to so many people.

Speaker 1 Can you tell us why you wrote that and what that whole process was like for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 Shrill is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name. And Lindy and I are very close friends.
TV writing is so weird.

Speaker 2 It was my first TV job and we're in the room and we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked to this point where she was like bold.

Speaker 2 not all the way bold you know we wanted to do more than one season so a little bit more bold and vocal and sticking up for herself and so we were brainstorming ideas for like a big pivotal uh experience she could have that would change her.

Speaker 2 Now, everybody knows like in real life, it takes years and years and years and years of like looking at looking at at tumblers of fat bodies looking at you know it's not just an overnight kind of thing but um Hulu wasn't going to give us you know 700 episodes for the first season so we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have and so Lindy and I were talking about all of the different things we had been to that sort of changed our ideas about fatness.

Speaker 2 And I talked about there used to be this dance party for fat girls in Chicago that would meet like once a month. And I would go to that,

Speaker 2 clothing swaps,

Speaker 2 like lots of different like websites and stuff, but there's no way to show that on TV. And Lindy had gone to one of,

Speaker 2 I think Essie Golden started this party called the Chunky Dunk.

Speaker 2 It may not have been. Essie Golden had a pool party and there were other pool parties and Lindy had gone to a bunch of them.
And it was like, let's do that. We have to do that.

Speaker 2 We want to see that showing women who look like us that they are beautiful and making this thing. So we

Speaker 2 landed on a pool party and we figured out what was going to be in the other episodes.

Speaker 2 And then when it got to the time of like assigning, the showrunner assigned me the pool party episode and I, you know, was like, okay, all right it, you know, like I was like,

Speaker 2 so excited. And so I, when I was writing it, I was just like, I want to see almost like a real life candyland, like just beautiful, bright.

Speaker 2 I didn't want it to be at the dingy hotel pool in like a rundown Sheridan or whatever, no shades in Sheridan or some like sleazy. hotel.
I really wanted it just to be like almost like a dream.

Speaker 2 Cause because we deserve that. Right.
So I wrote it. I turned it in.
The writer's room ended. Then I came back home to Michigan and

Speaker 2 they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lindy was like, you got to come out for your episode.
And I was a little nervous because.

Speaker 2 what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand like television budgets and that kind of thing.
So I was like, I don't know what it's going to look like.

Speaker 2 I just hope, I hope it's good. You know, I flew out to Portland.

Speaker 2 And my biggest concern though, other than how it looked was I was like, oh, it's just going to be like Hollywood fat people.

Speaker 2 It's going to be a bunch of like size eights and tens and not size 32s and 40s. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, it's just, it's so when you aren't in charge of anything, like I'm a very let go go and let God kind of person.

Speaker 2 But also, I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way, if we could do it our way.

Speaker 2 So we drive out to this country club and they were like, Sam, go look at the pool. So I went and looked at the pool and like I almost burst into tears.
It was the set was so beautiful.

Speaker 2 It was just like all these beautiful floaties and like the stands they set up, like everything looked so so gorgeous. And I was like, Okay, okay.

Speaker 2 And then Lindy was like, Let's go talk to the extras. And they had everybody inside, like, the ballroom of this like beautiful country club.
And we go in, and I walked around the corner.

Speaker 2 And I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes.

Speaker 2 all abilities like there was a woman in a wheelchair and there are women on crutches and there

Speaker 2 are like non-binary people and it just was like so beautiful. Everyone's in bathing suits, which was so great.

Speaker 2 The costume people were designing things on site for people just so they, no one was in a utilitarian, you know,

Speaker 2 like basic bathing suit. Like everyone's in gorgeous caftans and beautiful, bright colors.
They had hair and makeup for everybody. And it was just like, and there were so many people.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, this is astonishing. Like, I threw, I didn't have words.

Speaker 2 I thought what was going to happen was what happens always is they were going to like throw, you know, three size tens in a pool and be like, there's your party. But it was really gorgeous.

Speaker 2 And everyone was like, so cared for and it was really beautiful. And the entire time I was just sitting in the video village, just like watching the monitors.
I can't believe they let us do this.

Speaker 2 Like, that was really my overall feeling: it felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe they let us do this.
And then they let us be in it. I don't know if you saw my

Speaker 2 brief chat

Speaker 2 by the pool. And I was like, okay.
If I never work on another episode of TV again,

Speaker 2 it'll be fine. Like, we really did special.
And then it came out and it just looked

Speaker 2 so gorgeous.

Speaker 1 Magic.

Speaker 2 It's so beautiful and everyone did such a great job. It is like one of my crowning achievements was getting to work.
I have a quick follow-up. Yeah.
Who decides?

Speaker 1 Because you say they let us do this. Somebody chose

Speaker 1 to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it. Yeah.
Who's that?

Speaker 1 You say let go, let God, but like somebody in that role in the the TV world, it's an important role because you said they got it right.

Speaker 2 Who is that person? So Lindy was executive producer, but you know, there's like many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, this has got to be good.
It's got to be right.

Speaker 2 And then Hulu, whoever the executives were at Hulu, whoever like green lights the money. So, you know, TV crew people, they're like hardcore.
They're dressed in black.

Speaker 2 They have lots of carabiners and hats. They're very serious.

Speaker 2 And in Portland, they like look like Portland messenger

Speaker 2 pros. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting.
This guy comes up. He is just covered in tattoos, like real gruff looking.
And he's like, are you Sam Irby?

Speaker 2 And I was like, uh-oh, yes. And he was like, I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode.
And I was like,

Speaker 2 okay,

Speaker 2 that's great. This person who, I mean, I don't know his relationship to fat women, but like he,

Speaker 2 I wouldn't guess that he was like a guy who would be in touch with

Speaker 2 us and our issues and he appreciated it. That was like the very beginning of like, oh, okay, we're doing.
a thing.

Speaker 1 It's sort of, it was apparent.

Speaker 2 If you think about it too long, it's like a shame that this was the first event of its kind and that it was so meaningful.

Speaker 2 Like, the hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this that it's not an anomaly and we don't need to celebrate it. But it was very cool

Speaker 2 just in that moment to have him acknowledge it. And then, since it's been out, to have people be like, that meant so much to me.
That's very cool.

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Speaker 1 Speaking of dudes and carabiners, I find this part of you very interesting.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 You approach friendship in a very different place than a lot of people I know. You can be friends.
Well, you're friend.

Speaker 1 You can be you're friends with a dude who wears a Budweiser belt buckle, unironically.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 Right? Yes. Like,

Speaker 1 so this is hard for me to do because I don't know. I weed people out.
I guess I believe that people's belief systems, as might be manifested in their belt buckles, are parts of their character.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So I want to learn from you in this. Tell me how this works for you because you can be friends with anybody.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I can. For me, it's like,

Speaker 2 are you funny and can you take a joke? Right. That's like the primary thing.
It's like, can we have a laugh? Because all I'm trying to do is be laughing all the time. Like,

Speaker 2 you know, I'm not a clown, but I like,

Speaker 2 let's clown around. Let's have fun.
So if you can be fun and if you think I'm funny,

Speaker 2 let's go back and say, if you think I'm funny, you're halfway through the door, right? I'm like, oh,

Speaker 2 I'm like, oh, you're delighted by something I've said. Come on in, murderer.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 That is totally me.

Speaker 2 That is you.

Speaker 1 If somebody laughs at a single joke, I'm like, Jesus said,

Speaker 2 yes, we are. Yes.
We are soulmates. Oh, you think I'm funny? Let me give you my pin.
You know what I mean? I have the kind of personality that just.

Speaker 2 I don't know, I can just get along with a lot of people.

Speaker 2 I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven't ever tried to befriend someone who was so different from me, like politically, that it's been a problem.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don't have any friends who are like hardcore conservatives.
I have a lot of like friends that I think you'd be like,

Speaker 2 what do y'all bond over? And then I'll be like, well, I watch wrestling. And then, like, it explains that friendship.

Speaker 2 You're like, oh, you have a very narrow like way of connecting with this person.

Speaker 2 And sometimes for me, that's all it takes is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don't have to get into other things. You know, like, that is so good.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's.
Don't you wish? Don't you wish. No, that is exactly how I feel.
I know better. And you have a barrier to entry that is so fucking long.
That's why I asked.

Speaker 1 Okay, I'm trying to learn. No, I think it's so beautiful because I can connect with somebody on one thing.
And in a lot of ways, I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I'm seeing.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, well, I like them in this way. Yeah.
And this is fun. Me too.
I think, so I'm not going to guess, Glennon, why you have your rules, but I am going to.

Speaker 2 So if this is kind of a guess, I'm going to say that I don't need to have, and this is not shade, an intimate, like soul relationship with everybody, right?

Speaker 2 Like, I don't need to get to the depths of people if we're just like having a laugh or like we can talk about, you know, this one thing.

Speaker 2 Sometimes those narrow friendships like branch out and grow, but I don't go into things being like, okay, I'm going to meet this person.

Speaker 2 and I'm going to hang out with them and then I want to know everything about them.

Speaker 2 Some people, you don't, you know, you don't want to know, You don't want them to know everything about you.

Speaker 2 So I think because I don't look at everyone as like a potential like soul friend, because I'm just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with, then

Speaker 2 it's easier to like let some of that other stuff fall away. I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone.

Speaker 1 Yes. I think that's what I'm usually, if someone's in my house watching wrestling, Sam, which wouldn't happen, but okay.

Speaker 1 I am thinking, I'm side-eyeing that person, thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not? Right. And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it's over.

Speaker 2 You know, and

Speaker 2 I respect that because the quality of your friendships is probably really

Speaker 2 great because you love it.

Speaker 1 Yes, everyone I'm friends with is on this podcast right now.

Speaker 2 Well, so that's the thing is, well, and I think it feels like rude to call someone an acquaintance, but that's essentially the difference right is like yes we're friends because i know you inside and out you know me inside and out

Speaker 2 are acquaintances who were just like oh bob yeah he's a good time we don't need to know bob soul and like but it feels rude to call bob an acquaintance because that just is like a rude word so we need it we need like a capital s friend and a lowercase yes yes we need different words for friends.

Speaker 1 Yes. We need different words for friends because I don't want to say Bob's my friend because I don't want that to reflect the next thing Bob says this.

Speaker 1 And then you're like, wait, why are you friends with that? Right. Different words.

Speaker 1 But don't you think it all goes back to your view of life? Like, Sam, your view of life is, I want to find the absurd. I want to experience the absurd.

Speaker 1 I want to be part of seeing, being part of this, experiencing this. And so you intersect with people who can bring that out of you or share that experience with you.

Speaker 1 Glennon's view of life is very different than that. She's like, I'm going to have a very narrow but deep experience of life.
And I don't actually want to participate in any extracurriculars.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you that's where the lava is.
We can only dip a toe in there before things get dangerous. So I try to

Speaker 2 be near the top of the volcano where it's like smoky and sexy and fun,

Speaker 2 but I only get into the lava with a few people.

Speaker 2 And I'll tell you,

Speaker 1 that makes perfect sense.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to put it on them. I'm going to say that I have like that fear of when people really get like down and see what's in there.
They're going to be like, oh. Bye.

Speaker 2 And that's one of the hazards I think of like being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don't think that lower level exists.

Speaker 2 And then they are surprised when they get a glimpse of it. And I'm like, all I do is write about depression.
How do you think that manifests itself for real?

Speaker 2 So I think like having lowercase F friends,

Speaker 2 it like feels good to the ego. It's good to know people.
It's good to have people around. But also, I'm not not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit.

Speaker 2 And they're not in danger of finding out any of mine and thus rejecting me on account of that darkness.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 it's a safety measure.

Speaker 1 So good. I get that.

Speaker 1 I get that. Do you sometimes feel responsibility to just always be funny and always be doing the thing?

Speaker 2 No, I don't. Yeah, like entertaining them.

Speaker 2 I do. It never bothers me until i have a problem

Speaker 2 and i talk about it to someone who wants funny sam and they're like oh just laughing off and i'm like no no this is the part where you find out that i um gotta go to bed for three days about it sometimes it takes like a little distance i can always laugh at things maybe not in the moment or the next day.

Speaker 2 Eventually I'll get there. There have been people who can't deal with the in the moment, like, I'm not over this yet.
And then, no, that's never going to be your capital F, friend.

Speaker 2 Always going to be a lowercase. Never call that person when you have a problem.
Never expect more from them than the surface that you're getting.

Speaker 2 And I think sometimes, like, people divide themselves into those categories for

Speaker 2 you. My friend John,

Speaker 2 who I met like on the internet forever ago,

Speaker 2 this was like 10 years ago, maybe. I had posted that I was in the hospital, and we were just internet friends then.
And he came and visited, and was the only person who visited.

Speaker 2 And I was like, Oh, you want to be here during this stuff? Okay,

Speaker 2 we are real friends. But I never put that pressure on anyone because I know not everybody wants that.

Speaker 2 I like to let, I like to do a little sorting of my own and then let people do it, sort themselves into their capital F or lowercase F. You know, I love that.

Speaker 1 Speaking of capital F, friends, can we talk about your lady a little bit? So

Speaker 1 your lady, is it Kirsten or Kirsten?

Speaker 2 It's Kirsten. Thank you for it.
You got it right. I was like, oh my God, she's now she's going to be your lady since you got her name right.

Speaker 2 She's going to be like, Glennon said what? Bye. I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 I knew it was coming. okay

Speaker 2 so you two didn't you meet did she reach out to you she slid into your DMs didn't she slid into your DMs tweeted me and this was like back when I was still like looking at uh people saying things to me on Twitter who I didn't know now I'm not even on Twitter anymore but she tweeted that she loved the book and then we got into one of those like tweet conversations.

Speaker 2 And I'm not a private person

Speaker 2 but i do not like to conduct a public conversation like we're gonna talk

Speaker 2 she kept responding and i was like

Speaker 2 get into my inbox i mean both of them but get into my inbox so

Speaker 2 then we started dming and then i was like it reached a level that i was like is this, this isn't casual anymore.

Speaker 2 But with women, at least with this woman, it was never like, oh, I could, I want to fuck. It was just like, I'm talking to you all the time.
And I was like,

Speaker 2 okay, I'm okay, girl. You know, like,

Speaker 2 okay.

Speaker 2 And then, so we just, we graduated to talking a lot. And then at a certain point, I was like, listen, this is getting romantic.

Speaker 2 Are we, is this, is this romantic and she was like yeah and I was like okay great and then we then we started sort of talking

Speaker 1 that was brave of you that was a very brave thing I to say is this getting romantic how did you muster that up I felt that's showing the lava

Speaker 2 yeah well we had been talking for so long that I was like

Speaker 2 I don't know. And it's hard to know when people like want you or want the book you or, you know.
Yeah. And so like we had talked past the point where I thought, oh, she's just like a fan.

Speaker 2 This is something else. And,

Speaker 2 but it was also so much talking that I was like, I cannot be talking to a person who doesn't want to buy me dinner.

Speaker 2 I need an ROI on all this talking. I'm like, my thumb is getting fractured from texting this person.
What are we doing?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 that I am not brave, but in that moment, I was brave and was like, Yes, what are we doing?

Speaker 2 And I like I said it in a way that was like, if she was like, oh, we're just talking, it would be, I could like laugh it off and, you know, in case I had shown vulnerability

Speaker 2 too soon.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, we just started talking. And then I lived in Chicago.
She lived in Michigan. And she came and we went to brunch.

Speaker 2 And I brought a friend because I was like, what if

Speaker 2 I know you did not. Sam did not.
Sam

Speaker 2 so bad. It was some, she roasts me to this day.

Speaker 2 But my friend left and then we went to coffee after the brunch. And I was like, okay, this is, this is did you know

Speaker 1 like that day? Did you, or was it a slow burn or was it like?

Speaker 2 It was slow

Speaker 2 because she, so she was coming out of a marriage and she had two kids who were like five and seven at the time. So I certainly wasn't rushing to get into that.

Speaker 1 You're like, call me when they're 18.

Speaker 2 I still am like, call me when they're 18.

Speaker 2 One is 16 and I'm like,

Speaker 2 two more years. You get your ass out of here.

Speaker 2 No, he's actually like really lovely, but I still am like, TikTok, kids. Our real life is going to be

Speaker 2 as soon as you guys leave. So it was, it forced us to be slow.
Like I didn't meet the kids for a year. We really took our time and we lived in different places.

Speaker 2 So it was good that we really took our time. And I also was really cognizant of.
You got to do your relationship grieving. You got to do all.

Speaker 2 I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was

Speaker 2 on board. And it was good.
We took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance is better than mine.
I'm moving to Michigan.

Speaker 1 Are you done?

Speaker 2 Are you done with your grieving?

Speaker 2 Get the U-Haul.

Speaker 1 So what is your life like now? You're in Michigan. You've got the two kids.
You do not consider yourself a stepparent.

Speaker 2 I consider myself an adjacent adult who can pay for things and drive to things.

Speaker 2 My stepkids are great. They're really great.
They're funny.

Speaker 2 And they're like charming. Like they're all the stuff you want.
They've always been like good kids. The problem, I shouldn't even say it's a problem.
It's me. I am not parental.

Speaker 2 I am not unconditional.

Speaker 2 I'm very like, oh, you didn't wash that plate after all the money I spent. You know what I mean? Like the worst,

Speaker 2 the worst things that you like, you know how like you, when you're a kid, you're like, man, when I'm older and I'm around kids, I'm going to be so cool. Like, I'm not.

Speaker 2 I have to stop myself from being like, do you know how much that chair that you're standing up on costs? And I don't say it, but I feel in my soul that I want to say it. So

Speaker 1 it's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this.

Speaker 2 I do. You know,

Speaker 2 I don't know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn't have kids because, like, I knew that I would just be the worst version.
Like, I'd buy the kid everything and do all this stuff.

Speaker 2 And I'm sure I would teach it to read. But I also would be like,

Speaker 2 I'm taking that iPad if you don't do exactly what I say right now. So, I don't think of myself as a step parent because I don't, don't, I don't like tell them what to do.

Speaker 2 I don't, yeah, I don't parent. I don't tell them what to do.
I don't say you should study this. Like we hang out, we watch movies.
I'm like their cool aunt who has sex with their mom. That's great.

Speaker 1 Okay. One of my favorite things that you write about

Speaker 1 is your

Speaker 1 belief in not FOMO,

Speaker 1 but Jomo. Not the fear of missing out, but the joy joy of missing out.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 And I

Speaker 1 feel like, especially, you know, activities, you said you have finally learned that no one else is ever having a better time than you are. Like everything sucks and everywhere, everyone is sucks.

Speaker 1 Never. Right.

Speaker 2 I would disagree.

Speaker 2 Abby, you are a person who, I mean, I know you love to be in the mix. You love to go to stuff.
You love to be there. You love to talk to people.
I am in awe of a person like you,

Speaker 2 but not, I would never want to be that or you.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Or you. Exactly.
Exactly.

Speaker 2 Because the mix. You can do it, but never.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 The mix is the thing that should be avoided. Yes.
The mix.

Speaker 2 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 1 But it's not that it's just the joy of missing out on the event. You have taught us about the joy of missing out on having a take on fucking everything.
Okay. This is one of my favorite.

Speaker 1 So Sam's talking about or writing about the idea that she's supposed to have an opinion or a take on every single thing that happens in the world. And this is one of my favorite that ever was said.

Speaker 1 One of the reasons I give a lot of disclaimers is because we give so much weight to what people say who maybe we should not be listening to. I do want to remind people, don't ask me about the news.

Speaker 1 I don't watch the news. I haven't read a history book since 1997.
I am keenly aware of what I know and what I don't know.

Speaker 1 One of the things I don't know is anything smart or important that needs to be told to other people.

Speaker 1 Let's just take a moment without sharing.

Speaker 2 True. It's true.
We live in this time of like racing to get your take

Speaker 2 out.

Speaker 2 And I am always considering the source.

Speaker 2 And the source is rarely a person who is smart

Speaker 2 or thoughtful

Speaker 2 or, you know what I mean? Every time I see an infographic, I'm like, who said that? Where'd they go to school? What's their qualification? Like, shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 I just

Speaker 2 don't, I am not interested in anything like regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place that was terrible.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 I don't want to hear their fake on like global politics or whatever. Let's leave that to the experts.

Speaker 2 Sophie,

Speaker 2 if you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I'll listen. I probably won't, but maybe.

Speaker 2 I'm just this thing where like, because someone said it loud, we gotta listen is

Speaker 2 bonkers to me.

Speaker 2 I don't know anything. I can tell you, I had a Starbucks this morning that was delicious.
You could believe that.

Speaker 2 I went to high school in like 40 years ago. How old am I? I'm 42.
However many years ago I graduated at 17. Someone else was math.
I'm not even smart enough to do the math to tell you

Speaker 2 that I graduated high school. Your class in 98.

Speaker 2 Don't listen to anything I say.

Speaker 2 that I wouldn't I wouldn't attempt to say anything smart about anything. I can only tell you about my little

Speaker 2 ant

Speaker 2 of an experience in terms of like this giant world. Well, I think that that is

Speaker 1 on this giant world

Speaker 1 has helped so many of us just find the absurd to make the next five minutes a little bit more tolerable. That's what you do for all of us.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 1 And what she just said, though, is so profound about consider the stores. Like that is actually really important.
We take everybody's word at face value.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes.
And you're like, who wrote that?

Speaker 2 And I'm like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 We're all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read.

Speaker 2 Like, so I love that.

Speaker 1 But I think the reverse is also equally important that in this age where everyone is called

Speaker 1 to be an individual expert on myriad things happening in the world, that it is okay to be a listener.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Not everyone needs to be speaking all the time. It is okay to take your moment and learn your thing and just be a receiver as opposed to a distributor of news.

Speaker 2 So smart. No,

Speaker 2 that is it. Just listen, shut up and listen.

Speaker 1 Is the

Speaker 2 less,

Speaker 2 the less

Speaker 2 sophisticated way of saying that. Shut the fuck up and listen.

Speaker 2 And with that,

Speaker 1 we can do hard things, love bugs. Like, shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 We will see you

Speaker 1 next time on We Can Do Hard Things. Sam Irby, thank you for this hour and thank you for who you are in the world.

Speaker 2 Thank you for having me. What a joy.
I'm glad I didn't miss out on this.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 Also, next right thing, find one person to share your lava with.

Speaker 1 Oh, sister. Just find one.
We only need one. You can have friends with all the belt buckles you need, but one for the lava.

Speaker 2 I love this so much. This was so awesome.
You guys,

Speaker 2 I love you.

Speaker 1 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 1 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 1 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 1 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 1 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 1 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 1 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.