Your Inner Child: Is Yours a Voyager, a Defensive Driver, or a Scuba Diver?

Here's what's interesting. It's how I've kind of lived the last four or five years of my life.

Where when there's any perception of stress, I have usually been of the right amount of faculty in my own body to be able to counteract it with joy.

But I've been so stressed over the last six months that I haven't had myself to counteract any of the perception of anxiety or stress

with any joy. And so I have been actively making our life worse because I'm not injecting what joy we need in the world.

You're right. That is a really good mission statement.
And I completely hear you.

And it is an interesting thing about how stress can just take away your personality. Yeah,

for me too, because I'm like a presence person. I'm not an anxiety person.
I don't fucking believe in it. I mean, I believe your experience with it.
Well, I don't know how I got brought into this.

We were just talking about anxiety in general.

But wait, was Abby saying that like the anxiety used to be all outside of you so you could bring your life force to counteract it, but now you have anxiety in you so you can't? Yes.

Like there would be anxiousness in the ether

out here. And then I'm like,

I know what to do with this anxiety. I'm going to do some fun joy thing.
And then I can counteract it.

And so like it balances it out but then once the anxiety within me has started to rise I have been unaware and unable to do anything joy wise so this is part of my therapy right now that I am injecting joy into any moment that I can that feels anxious or stressful or too much or overwhelming that's very good I'm sorry that I couldn't step into that balance and be the joy injector that you needed that's not your role because I'm not the joy injector no that's that's not your role.

That's my role. But it's interesting, you might also want to talk to your therapist about your feeling like your role is to perceive anxiety around you and fix it for your whole life until this point.

That's step one.

And that's like varsity level, probably. Right.
And I think that we're just at JV.

Because look,

the problem is, is not Glennon's anxiety or my anxiety or the world's anxiety.

It's how how I am interacting with anxiety within me so what I am understanding now is that I actually don't have anxiety in me

when I am experiencing joy and play

so I am learning and working on just bringing in moments of joy and play into my life and then I actually don't experience anxiety. I can see it.

I can see that it's happening. But I'm like, oh, that's not happening in here.
I'm going to do something joyful.

I'm going. It's kind of like a band-aid.
It's like a cure. Yes, for me.
And I'm not saying this is going to be a cure for everybody, but right now it's helping.

I'm playing music all the time and I'm dancing. We had a dance.
We did dishes. Chase played an incredible song, Nina Simone,

put it on. And I said, okay, you guys, we all have to do our own interpretive dance for the entirety of this song.
And The entirety of the dishes.

Yeah, we did. We had to dance through the dishes.

And when anyone would stop, Abby would call it out. So it was important to continue the dancing for the whole dishes.
Those were the rules. Do you have any ideas, babe, about how to...

I love how you haven't even started the podcast. No, no, but this is the first time.
This was all about a technical

stress that happened because of a technical difficulty 30 seconds ago. And now we're just talking as if it's the podcast.
But we haven't, we should welcome the people into the conversation.

Oh, they know they're welcome. They know they're here.
They're just here with us. They know.
They know they're just part of the convo and they're with us always.

They don't need to be formally welcomed.

Do you have any idea yet?

how to

deal with the anxiety that comes when work things are related because I understand

the idea of, okay, when I turn towards play and rest, I don't have anxiety. But what's the answer to then also doing hard things

while dealing with anxiety? For me, and I can only speak for me, but for me, it's putting a future

expectation. or a future expectation of experience on something that has yet to exist.

And that is why bringing joy into the complete present moment makes my body remember, oh, the future is not a thing.

The present is the thing. And my anxiety is based on a future outcome or a future plan or a future work thing or a future idea of the way I want things to go.
And that's a non-reality right now.

That's right. So you're not even talking about joy and presence being separate from work.

Like stopping this to surf would obviously be but you're talking about bringing the joy that you want all the time into every work moment yeah well because i'm i it's it's also a choice i understand that when anxiety comes up um there's not a lot we think we can do about it but what is preceding the moment of anxiousness what is for me what is preceding the moment of overwhelm and it's often a thought it's something it's a thought that this isn't going the way it's supposed to go which is what you're talking about

with future worry. It is a moment of there's a gap between my expectation of this moment or this person or this thing that is different from the reality, and the gap is the anxiety.
That's right.

So, if you glut, okay, so it's the theme of this entire podcast for the last five years, which we started with that quote:

the thing that screws us up the most is the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be.

Yes, and if you have the power, this is what I've been trying to talk to Emma about in terms of mentally preparing for games.

If you have the power to create an anxiety with your head,

with your thoughts, and I understand that there's some biological stuff that this is not applying to, but for me and the way that I've been experiencing anxiety and overwhelm in my life right recently, I have been doing it to myself.

So if I have the power to create the anxiety, then I also have the other power to not

create something different, which is possibility and hope and motivation and inspiration. So,

I'm bringing on board

my national team experience where it was hard to get fired up to go to train every single day.

And so, you had to mentally create little things that you were excited about, that you were going to experience joy. And for me, it was like laughing with my teammates.

It was like telling a funny joke. It was like making fun of our coach because they've got, you know, something in their teeth.
And that was like a little funny thing.

That like these are the moments I just don't want to miss my life. Yeah.
And I don't want to miss being able to inject the joy wherever I can.

And to be clear, my life is. totally different than it was last Friday since I've started doing this.

Completely, where I'm just like, I'm going to fucking throw joy at everything.

I'm going to throw play and fun at every little bit of my life, even if it feels like hard. Like, okay, fine, I can do this.

So I feel passionate about it. You're the best.
And I love that you keep saying the word inject because that is how I experience it.

Like, it's like when you were little and they used to hold you down and inject vaccines into, and they would be like, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.

And it's just going to hurt for a second.

Like, that is how sometimes when my anxiety is high, I feel the joy as a hold-down injection that does, in fact, make me feel better, but it's against my will. Yeah.
Right?

That's how I feel every time I leave the house. Yeah.
It's like, I know that I'll feel better after I do this thing, but God damn it.

Go do it.

Like, it's not like a looking forward. It's like a,

okay,

fine, I'll do the thing that keeps me human, even though I'd rather just stay unhumaned. Totally.

Well, it's a lot of effort to maintain all your anxiety. Like you can't be distracted from it because

you are make-believe holding the whole world together. It's a big ass job that no one gave you, that you volunteer for, and that doesn't work.

But it's also a lot of effort to to do the things that you need to do to enliven yourself. And which is when you're feeling like you're already so overwhelmed.

Like, I'm over here exhausted, just holding all this anxiety. I can't add a different job, which is to unanxiety myself.

I just saw this meme, you guys, that I kept and now I look at every day because it makes me so happy. And it says, 90% of what you worry about doesn't come true.
See, worrying works.

That's how

I feel.

How did we turn it to mean, so don't worry. It's working, you guys.
Barely anything we worry about happens. That 10%,

you probably forgot. You probably didn't worry about that enough.
Somebody probably injected you with joy and you dropped the ball on that 10%.

That's so good. Okay, anyway.
Yeah, what are we talking about today, y'all? Well,

we have a precious question from one of the pod squatters that I thought it might be fun to spiral around and ask you guys about.

We've had a couple conversations about this recently, adorably, and the question is: this

Abby Amanda Glennon, what were each of you like as little kids, and which part of that kid still shows up every day?

So, I thought it would be fun to start with Amanda on this one. Great.
Okay, I brought a show and tell

for

to answer this question of what I was like as a kid because I thought it illustrative.

So

I'm going to show it.

I would like to draw your attention for those listening. Don't worry, you're not going to miss a thing.
I'm going to, like Abby not missing her life, we're not going to let you miss a thing.

I'm going to tell you everything about what I'm holding. Okay.

This, my

R, sorry, our mother recently presented to me, and it is when I was six or seven,

apparently

created this contract.

Okay, so this Glennon was a contract that I drafted at

six or seven with you.

And what I'm gonna read it, and what I have surmised from this is that you came to me asking to borrow seven dollars.

Okay,

okay, so at the top it says loans.

Loan, seven

Okay.

This is all written in red magic marker on yellow

lined paper. And judging by your handwriting, how old do you think you are? Well, my handwriting is still this shitty.

But based on your handwriting,

I think that I was like six or seven. Yeah.
Which would have made you like nine or ten. Right.
Okay.

Okay. Loan $7 for t-shirt

specified for t-shirt. I mean, mean, first of all, that's a load of shit because I don't think you're going to get a t-shirt for $7.
Well, that's why you put it in quotes. Right.

T-shirt in quotes. That just shows you didn't believe me.
She was getting a pack of cigarettes, but she has reported for the official document that she's getting. T-shirt.

Okay, the interest, which is misspelled, is 70 cents.

Okay, I'm going to charge you 10% interest on this t-shirt amount. Your client, Glennon Doyle.

Okay, then there's a notation that says more each week not paid, 30 cents. How did you even know about interest or more each week not paid? Like, what the hell? Unclear to me.
Unclear.

Apparently, I have required some kind of

assurance in the form of collateral, which I have written down, job, babysitter. That's what you're going to do to get the money to repay me.
Okay.

Date, Monday, 5th of August. We don't have a year.
No, Monday, 5th of August.

Here, okay, the memo. I've written memo.
$7

is the loan for a quote t-shirt for Glenn.

Witch, which is spelled W-H-I-T-C-H. I've always been a bad speller and everything.
Always thought I was a witch. Yes.
Always had bad handwriting. Witch, pay it back by babysitting.

Each week not paid, I will raise the price 30 cents, which narrows out to five cents a day

it's important to know that it narrows out to five cents yes

okay over it says then we flip it over

loaner

okay I have my signature there signer This is your signature. Apparently, I have some notes on this contract.

Apparently, I have also added myself as a co-signer to the loan, which inadvertently makes me liable on the same $7 total plus interest, which narrowed out at five cents a day is now quite high.

But you owe myself a lot. You're my backer.
Yeah, you're my backer. I have added myself as a co-signer.
Okay. I didn't yet understand the nuance of the law.
Okay.

Memo for signatures. Okay, I have allowed you a memorandum section where you say,

Doesn't have to be a t-shirt that I spend the money. It was cigarettes.
It was.

whatever it was for.

You knew good and well that you didn't want to be on the hook for signing this document for a t-shirt when you sure as shit were not spending the money on that.

Okay, then I would like to draw your attention to I have it notarized with a dinosaur stamp. Unbelievable.

How did you know how to do all this? Like, there was no internet at this point. Well,

I'll tell you what I've always known how to do, Abby, is protect myself

from me. But like, did you like,

did you like look like, did you ask your parents like how, how does a contract work? No, my parents would never know that. No.

I don't know. But it's absolutely hilarious and

I love it and also a little sad.

Which narrows out to

five cents a day. Flat rate, 70%, more each week, not paid, 30%.

I mean, I just want the pod squad to imagine this scenario where I just walk into my sister's room and ask her for $7.

And basically, her little six-year-old self is like, this bitch is not getting away with this again.

Phone me 15 times.

And so she sits down at her little desk in her little room and drafts up a contract, which, by the way, maybe we can understand that you understand interest at six to seven.

What I cannot abide by is that you understood that you had to figure out how

I was going to employ myself to pay the money back.

How did you know that? That's like

bank loan level. Yeah, and like notarizing with a dinosaur stamp.
Like, what the fuck?

Well, I don't, um, I don't know. I don't remember.
I can only imagine that maybe you had borrowed money from me a couple times. Perhaps.
And not paid me back.

Maybe, I don't know, but I actually don't even remember. I don't know if that was true.
Maybe I just was like, well, this is what a responsible steward of her funds would do.

But

I do think that it's interesting because I think that

is kind of,

it's cute and funny, and clearly I was like meant to be a lawyer.

But also I think it

demonstrates a little bit, which is that I was thinking this morning about it. I'm like, what does that say about me? And I think it's like,

if defensive driving was a personality,

that's what I'd be.

That's so good. It's not enough to drive safely and think you're going to get there safe.

You need to anticipate that everyone else is going to be swerving in front of you and making crazy turns and slippery conditions and

just be prepared for everything

that might happen

because

everything is not to be trusted and we have to be prepared to not get screwed. Yes, and where do you think in your wildest imagination, who knows these questions? Who knows, okay?

No one's pathologizing anyone here. Sure.
But like where?

You know, like where do you think

where do you think that came from? You're just born that way? Like were you born with a pen and a ledger? Like, or

was this a learned thing? How does one become this? I don't know. I think there was probably

a lot of things that I was like,

this seems a little

much,

and this seems like I have to be ready

for

what might happen and it seems like I should

take on the responsibility of making sure

that I can

make myself

safe, make myself make the world orderly, that like if I if the world isn't like orderly and predictable and

understandable around around me, I will find a means to make it so. And so that

feels like kind of a tool of that. Like that's what if I was pathologizing myself, I would say like

the kid who's seven and

is just sure she's gonna get screwed and that something's gonna go wrong is gonna f not wanna live that way and be like, well, the law will protect me. My dinosaur stamp will protect me from any

foreseeable offenses against me.

So sweet. So maybe.
Sweet. I mean, there's good parts about that, too.

That's like you can find, you can live in uncertainty and be like, the world is uncertain and I have no control, so what am I going to do?

Or you can be like, what are the structures around that can make it

better

and more predictable? But I think I've maybe taken that a little extreme in my life.

Well, don't we all? But it also makes me feel like

I've always thought it was weird that we only, like, people who go more towards

arty things or even adaptive behaviors like alcohol or addiction or whatever are always considered the sensitive people.

And then people who go towards more an analytic thing or something don't get that. Because I actually think of that as a compliment.
Like if you're sensitive, that means you're taking things in.

And I think it's often suggested that people who go towards a more analytical thing

are missing that. But actually, it's just an exact,

it's just another way of sorting the world. Or if you feel you're in a boundaryless place of creating boundaries,

that's just was your your art to to create a scaffolding to protect yourself a little bit. Yeah, they're both coping mechanisms.

You're like, if I can't cope with whatever reality is, I'm either going to exit this reality,

which is part of

what those addictions things are. Like, I'm going to go over here.
I'm going to numb out of this reality. But it takes an equal amount of sensitivity to be like, this reality isn't working.

What other

realities can I bring

to make this more orderly and make more sense? And I think, I think that's,

I think that's true. And I think sometimes in family systems, there are like feelers and fixers.

And this would actually have been right around the time that like we discovered your eating disorders.

And I think I kind of like typecast myself very early as like, you're not a feeler, you're a fixer. You're like a see

what you can do about the problems and address them, but you're not like a feeler of the problems. Sister, I have a question.
So,

as like a younger, a younger sibling, I understand

I understand like

surveying the scene of the family system,

and your sister maybe

gets sick or becomes the quote-unquote identified patient in your family system.

Do you think that you just decided to be the fixer

bypassing any

ability to be a feeler.

Do you think it was a conscious choice? You were like, well, I'm not going to go down that road. I'm going to just go down this road.
And I guess the question is,

is,

do you know what I'm trying to ask here?

Yeah, kind of. Like, does it rob you of something and just you rob it of yourself? Or is it force? Yeah, so it feels like there was like a

chicken or egg. Yes, yes, yes.
Yeah, because it happens both ways. And then the feeler is like, well, I I can't a fixer.
Yes. I can't do that shit.
And then you abandon half your personality.

You, so I think it's a beautiful question. Like, did taking on the fixerness, whether it was chosen or not, force you to abandon the feeler self? I think it's probably

very true

that

I abandoned the feeler self. And that has like been a thread through the whole

so many of our conversations and even this season of the like, do you have that? Do you not have that? Everybody has that. Where is it? You know, like, I think I did

kind of abandon that part early. So it's like incredibly underdeveloped.

But I don't know whether it's,

and I wouldn't necessarily say that it is, like, I want to be very careful not to say that it is Glennon getting sick

that made me abandon that. I think

Glennon

got sick for the same reasons

that

I abandoned that. In other words, correct.
That's

really good.

There wasn't a capacity. Like there was not room for two feelers.

Right. There wasn't or one.
Right. So like clearly.
Clearly, it's like read a room.

This isn't even going well. Yeah.

it's sure as shit not gonna work to have two people like that and it's so

um

so I think it's I think it's like all part of the same yeah bag in a way but I don't think that I consciously did that I think that like I became kind of a foil

and then it was like then I just kept going. Yep.
Yeah.

It's a very generous reframe though, because sometimes, like,

family systems are presented as, like, even if it's accidental, as, well, one person's the sick person, and then everybody reacts to that person, one, that kid, and creates their...

But what I hear you saying is there's something in the water,

and the same thing in the water that creates the sick one creates the fixer. But the origin is the water the family is swimming in.

It's not a chain reaction of one becomes one and then everybody else falls into line. The same water that made me say, I'm out of here,

I protect myself by disappearing through addiction, is the same water that said, I'll protect myself through legal means.

Right. And not for nothing.
Like, if

that had, if your solution had

been effective,

in other words, if your cry for help by disappearing had been effective in relocating you and being like, oh, here's what is needed. We can do this.
Then I would have been like, oh,

there is

maybe room

for a whole person. But like, I think both of those things together play in, you know?

Cool.

Babe, are you, is there anything else you want to say in honor of your little kid self before we move on to Abby?

Or did you want to write something up about the time each of us is taking and make sure we're allotting it correctly?

I'm charging interest if you go over your time.

Which even narrows out to, you owe me a shit ton of money. I'm trying, this is not important, but my brain's trying to figure out what words you meant, which averages out to.
Yeah.

You meant which averages out to. Okay, which narrows out.
Which narrows out to.

And I spelled a witch three different ways. Yes.
Well, you got to try it every way because you know you'll get it right once. You're just trying to use formal language, too, which is so cute.

And that just reminds me of my wife, who yesterday did say to me that

it gave me advice that if I did a certain thing, it would behoove me. It would behoove me if I did this thing.
And if I tried it, then maybe things would go more swimmingly.

And I just thought, from which, from whence are you?

Who says this will behoove you in casual conversation? And it will go swimmingly. It's just amazing, my Victorian wife.
I would like to know what the opposite of behoove is.

I would like to start using that in sentences. It will not behoove you.
It will unhoof you. Undehoove you.
It will de-hoove you.

It will dehoohoove you. I love that.
And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free.

This episode is brought to you by MIDI Health.

There's this pattern I keep hearing from women in midlife.

I thought something was wrong with me. Do you know what? We're so used to powering through that we assume it's our fault.

But when you zoom out, you see the real story: millions of women going through the same changes with almost no support. MIDI was built for this exact stage of life.

The care is personalized because no two people experience this transition the same way.

You can book an online appointment quickly, talk to someone who listens, and get get prescriptions sent to your local pharmacy.

And the big thing, MIDI is the only women's telehealth brand in this space that's covered by major insurance. Visit joinmidi.com today.
That's joinmidi.com.

Gain is on a mission to spread the joy of scent, and they are doing it through their new Gain Wicked for Good collection.

Just like the film transports us to another world, the power of scent does too. And together, they're taking us all the way to Oz.

The new Gain Wicked for Good collection lets fans get scent to Oz with three enchanting limited edition scents designed to transport you to the world of Oz.

My favorite is the Gain Inwash Scent Boosters in Wonderfulest Woods and Beautiful Blossom Beads. The scent has a way of making me feel both happy and calm.

And there are very few things in my life that can do that. I pull my laundry out and it smells good and it makes my house and my people smell good and honestly we deserve that.

We deserve for the everyday mundane chores to have as many little splashes of delight in them as possible.

For wicked fans and gainiacs alike, go get some good in your everyday with this limited edition collaboration, which immerses you in the wicked universe through scent, inviting you to experience the magic and joy with every sniff.

The Gain Wicked for Good collection is available online and in retailers nationwide. Thanks Gain for supporting We Can Do Hard Things.

As you all know by now, I have struggled with eating disorders since I was 10 years old. It is really

something

how much disordered eating can steal from us. Not just our health, but our joy and our relationships and our peace.

Given the prevalence of eating disorders, it feels criminal how inaccessible treatment can be.

Accessing treatment just is a sea of navigating wait lists, insurance, and trying to find any care that actually works.

If you're worried about yourself or someone you love, I would like to introduce you to a resource called Equip.

Equip is a fully virtual, evidence-based eating disorder treatment program that helps patients achieve lasting recovery at home.

Every EQIP patient is matched with a multidisciplinary care team that includes a therapist, dietician, medical provider, and mentors.

I will tell you that is what it took for me and continues to take for me is an entire team. And you also get a personalized treatment plan that's tailored to your unique goals and challenges.

Equip treats patients of all ages and all eating disorder diagnoses, and it's covered by insurance and there is no wait list.

If you think that you or a loved one could be struggling with an eating disorder, don't wait to get help. Visit equip.health/slash hardthings to learn more.
That's equip.health slash hard things.

So I learned something recently that completely stopped me in my tracks. For every single human cell in our bodies, there's a microbe working just as hard.

Half of us isn't even human, and yet most supplements only support the human half. Once you know that, it kind of changes the way you think about health, right?

That's why I was so excited when SEED, the microbiome brand I've trusted for years, created their new co-biotics. They're daily supplements that care for both your body and your microbiome.

So you're actually supporting the full picture of your health. There's one for every part of your day.
DMO2, daily multivitamin, AMO2, energy and focus, and PMO2, sleep and restore.

Each capsule has two layers, one designed for your body, one for your microbiome. So both get exactly what they need when they need it.

I've been taking AMO2 every morning and I can totally feel the difference. It's not a jolt.
It's more like like my system is synced. Like my body and my gut are finally on the same page.

If you want to try it, stop supplementing for half your health. Start with seed cobiotics and take care of all of you.
Go to seed.com slash weken20 and use code we can20 for 20% off.

Your body and your microbes will thank you. This year, Aura Frames has officially saved me.
It is the easiest meaningful gift. Ugh, I love it.

I love that I can just download the Aura app, connect to Wi-Fi, and add unlimited photos and videos straight to the frame.

And honestly, the fact that you can preload the photos before it even ships makes me feel like I actually have my life together. Plus, every frame shows up in this beautiful premium gift box.

Giving an Aura frame this year is making my holiday shopping so much simpler. It's personal, it's sentimental, and it's something people will actually keep out all year long.

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver matte frame, named number one by Wirecutter, by using promo code hardthings at checkout.

That's auraframes.com. Promo code hardthings.
This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get it in time for the holidays.

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Mary Abigail,

what do you want to tell us about what you were like as a little kid and what parts still show up today? Well, that's what the pod squatter wants to know.

Well, I've been doing quite a bit of parts work with my therapist.

And oftentimes,

there's a lot of parts that I have inside of me that are very young.

And

I think that I was a very obnoxious child.

Oh.

My high school basketball and soccer coach just got inducted to our high school

Hall of Fame. And I get to do.

Well, because she was great and won a lot of things. And I was talking to her, and she was telling me about all the people that came and helped get her inducted.
And

one of the stories was one of the women women came up to her and said god that Abby Wombach she was so annoying as a kid

like she was so loud and I they were joking it wasn't but that's yeah they were but I think that I was like I think I was like

I was a kid who just wanted to be completely in all of the experience of life And so I was louder than most kids were. I was more confident than most kids were.

And I don't say that to to make you guys feel like you need to protect me. You can kind of, you can put your protector parts down.
Okay. Real quick.
I'm super pissed.

I haven't listened to anything since you said that that bitch walked up there and said that Abby was obnoxious. Well, she didn't say it on stage.

She was just, they were talking about it with each other. Like, isn't it so interesting that she's become who she's become in the world?

But she was kind of like, you know, the loud, you know, would jump on your back and like mess your hair up. And back in like the 80s, hair was a thing for girls.
They just started that is obnoxious.

hairspray. You know, and I would like jump on my sister's friends' backs and I would mess up their perms and their big claw bangs.

Abby, did you tell them that well-behaved women really make history? Did you tell them?

And so I think that, like, I've been, I've been fondly thinking of my younger self because she had a knowing

that was not yet proven

by life experience yet, but like a deep belief.

And I really like that kid.

And so I think one of the things that I come into contact with now in my adulthood is I have kind of pushed aside the obnoxious parts of myself,

of my childlike self,

for fear of rejection or for

fear of

conflict or tumult.

Because it behooves you.

In my family dynamic, in my friends dynamic, in my world dynamic,

I have kind of cast aside my child self

for belonging.

And

one of the biggest, one of the greatest stories of my relationship life is that I am too much. That eventually my partner will see that I am this obnoxious thing, that they need to

slowly and methodically and lovingly but methodically make me more of an adult version of the childlike self and I am

in complete and utter revolt on that right now in my therapy

I realize that I am in communion with and belonging with other people and in relation with my family and my wife. And I think that that's really important.

That I do make compromise and I'm not obnoxious and loud all the time because we're living communally, and I think that that's important.

But I think that there are parts to my childlike self that I miss, that I don't want to push aside. Like,

and this is not

the greatest example,

but

I have had such

an extraordinary time playing.

And the reason why I was such a good soccer player is because I really did think of it for a long time as something I just got to play.

It wasn't like,

yes, it was hard, but there were so, like the times when I was absolutely at my best on the field was when I just felt like, oh my gosh, like I have the, I'm the luckiest person.

I have this insanely awesome job. I get to travel the world.
This is before I got tired and old and things started to hurt more,

where it became less fun and less playful, became more work and hard.

But I want to get back to the

cultivating because it's a mindset for me. Like I'm trying to cultivate this mindset of childlike awe and openness and play and fun.

And I'm not going to fall victim to the world or capitalism or

business or parenting. Like, my God, parenting is the number one killer of play.

What? It is.

Because

all you're doing is you're obsessing and you're responsible for not letting harm come to these children. And so it takes up so much of your spirit and your mind.

And you have to, like, there's something that happens that, like, you, you have to pretend. Being an, I have to feel, sometimes I feel like I have to pretend being an adult a lot.
Totally.

That's all I feel.

That I'm like,

I know what's going on here, and I've got this. I've got you guys.
Yeah.

And I don't.

I don't got you. I don't got nothing.
I got news. I don't got you.
I'm just like a child who

is kind of obnoxious and says weird shit sometimes. And I don't know why, but like, sometimes people think it's funny.
Sometimes people think it's obnoxious. Sometimes people are offended by it.

So anyway, this is a lot of fun. Sometimes all three in one.
Yeah, did I do it just then? No. Okay.

I

also

know that sometimes we do have to adapt

in our

childlike ways

so that they don't become maladaptive. And so one of the things I really want to talk about is this idea of

The wound that happened in me when I was a child where I didn't think that I was getting enough quality attention

from the people that I really wanted it from, which was my mom and my dad.

I should just say my mother, because I didn't actually,

I never felt a wound for my dad not noticing. I really wanted my mother's attention.

When you have seven people that you are tending to, as my mother did, she only had space for me for a little bit of time, right? And she did her best. I really do believe that she did her best.

But for this spirit,

it wasn't enough. And so then I started using as a coping mechanism

sports

to get the undivided attention that I was seeking, which then became a maladaptive practice of actually not feeling worthy enough, right? Like.

Is any of this making sense? Yes,

your worthiness came from performance instead of existence. Exactly.
It's also making sense of jumping on people's back and stealing their claw clips if you're not getting enough attention at all.

Yes.

It really does. It's a direct line, really.
Yeah.

And so,

I don't know.

I really love that little kid because that little kid had to have these big dreams. And I've really

thought a lot about

trying to understand how a person

can,

in their minds,

believe deeply that they could win an Olympic gold medal without women's soccer even being in the Olympics yet. Like, I think about that a lot.
Like, because you did tell them about that.

You used to write.

Yeah, I think I might have talked about this on the pod squad before, but on the pod before, but I used to write in a journal in eighth grade prior to women's soccer being in the summer Olympics.

My name is Abby Abby Wambach and I will win an Olympic gold medal for women's soccer. You know what that is? That's obnoxious.
Yes. Like the level of

obnoxious you have to be to believe that you're going to win a gold medal in something that doesn't exist is the same thing. Like it's the blessing and the curse.

You're jumping on life and you're just messing up its hair.

You're just like holding on for dear life. Yes.

And it's obnoxious and also sweet. In a good way.
That's what you're saying. Yeah.
no, I'm saying this same life force is in both things. I've always been the kind of person that

knew there was more out there for me to experience and explore. I'm an experiential human.

And when I was a kid, I think a lot of my anxiety, like a lot of my frustration, was that I felt like there was so much more that I just, it was like just beyond my vision, you know?

And so I had to curate a lot of this inside of myself, and I had to like dream up a lot of this.

And now, how this has become a little bit maladaptive for me is that we, Glenn and you and I, are trying to define and determine what enough is.

And so

the thing that propelled me into the greatest experience of life I could envision was this utter belief and this intuition that there was something

more I could be a part of and create with and experience. And now

there's the conversation that we're having: is like, is what we have right now enough rather than going out and trying to express more dream, more experience into the world?

And I think that's where I struggle. That's where I'm struggling right now.

That makes such good sense. In like the maladaptive approach to this worthiness,

childlike wonder, ah, play, bringing it into adulthood.

But

does

shutting down,

are the dreams that I have just

me participating more in capitalism and being like on the treadmill of keeping up with the Joneses? Or is it a part of my constitution?

and my spirit around what I know makes me the happiest, around exploring the world and being in the most different and interesting experiences that this body can be in. I don't know.

That's all I'm going to say.

Well, it's really making sense of.

I don't think I mentioned this before, but when we were having that conversation about

is it possible that we just, everything we've ever dreamed of and need and want is already here and we don't have to strive for anything else. And what if the dream of the next thing is ruining

is is a false thing like is the the pursuit of happiness being the problem as opposed to just being happy and the american dream being the problem as opposed to like looking at reality and saying this is beautiful this is good enough yeah and i as we were talking about that abby looked at me and said

i feel like you're talking about end-of-life stuff

And

I just didn't even know what she meant. And then I, but I've been thinking about that so much.

And I think it's so fascinating because the way I was thinking about it was like, oh, she equates the striving or the reaching towards whatever's next as life itself.

So if you stop that and just sit in the enoughness, then that is what people do before they die. That's giving up.
That's

giving up. Right.
And so that's how I was thinking about why she said that.

I think also what you're saying is it has to do with your identity,

Like what you have,

the way you have always experienced the world is adventure. So

you're hearing me say, what if we don't adventure anymore? Not, okay, got it. The way something was

introduced to you, if it was like

a weapon?

against you or an invitation for you and it sounds like for you the like loud, obnoxious girl who was dreaming of things that didn't exist and was being told subtly or overtly, what you have is enough.

Just stop. Just, it's fine.
Be grateful. Stop.
It's enough. It was being used as like a weapon to tamp you down and to like contain

you.

And of course, then when someone tells you,

isn't this enough? You're going to receive it within that same framework, which is, well, you're just asking me to stop expanding and to stop dreaming and to stop, you know,

finding who I am. And so that makes total sense because it's the original framework is how, of course, you're going to have to deal with that before you get to the other side.
That's right.

That's a good way of putting it, too. Yeah.
Interesting. It's kind of scary to me.
Like, when you said that, I just, I felt like,

I felt, honestly, I felt like, oh, this is how we end it.

This is how we go. I know that sounds insane.
I don't think it does, but like, I don't think it does.

And I also completely understand

the experiment and the thought experiment of, like,

is it

my life force energy? Or is it

a proxy

to

the capitalistic treadmill. Right.
Like, what is it? Like, what is the, where is it coming from?

Is this the essence of me in my, my, in the way that I experience the world and my life and the vision of my life? Or is it

the conditions that I've been a part of that are making me chase something more for like relevance? And

well, there's two different ways, though. Like, for example, if you're on a boat,

there is the way of looking at adventure that is like, this boat that we're on needs to go somewhere else, needs to voyage somewhere else, right? That

there's a new destination where joy will be. There's a new place.
But there's also the kind of adventure that's like, I'm going to scuba dive.

Like, I'm going to jump off this boat. and I'm going to see what's in the sea right below me.

So I guess what I wonder is, is there a way of melding the two? Like is there a way of using your adventure spirit,

your beautiful childlike passion to mine every moment for as much joy as possible?

And instead of leading the boat somewhere else for that adventure, scuba diving into what we have right now and like mining

everything

where we live and our relationship and our like the the everything

around us diving deeper into that. Because what I think is when you move the boat over and over again as your only form of adventure, you miss 90% of the joy that was in the place you just were.

Yeah, I get that for sure. And that's the struggle I feel like, the tension that I'm experiencing right now

in

thinking about a retirement and

how do I want to feel in that retirement.

And

I don't know.

I just, I, the way I'm just trying to reorganize my mind around whether or not I can achieve the feeling that I'm thinking about and hoping to experience in my retirement in the current, the exact current place that we are right now.

I don't know if there needs to be some sort of

movement of the boat or not. I don't know.

I don't know is a great answer. And now it's time for our ads.

Most people don't realize they're running low on one of the most vital minerals for human health, magnesium.

With 10 highly bioavailable forms of magnesium, plus 70 plus essential minerals, it provides total magnesium support, helping you sleep better, think clearer, move stronger, and feel your best every day.

I've been taking Qualia Magnesium Plus at night for the past few weeks, and the difference has been real. I fall asleep faster.
I feel clearer and more grounded during the day.

It feels like my body is finally getting what it's been missing. Experience the most trusted magnesium for purity, potency, and performance.
Go to qualialife.com/slash hardthings for 50% off.

And here's a bonus: use the code hardthings for an additional 15% off your order. That's q-u-a-l-i-a life.com/slash hardthings.
Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. Hi, Pod Squad.
Abby here.

I'm here with my friend and co-host of our new show, Welcome to the Party. Hi, Pod Squad.
We would love to invite you over to check out our new show, Welcome to the Party.

It's really about the sports for those of you who might not be sports-focused or centric, but it's also about celebrating and uplifting the stories around athletes and leaders across soccer, basketball, hockey, softball, the Olympics-you name it.

It is our mission to bring the joy and love of sport and these women to all of you. If you don't know all of them, it's okay because we'll explain it to you.

So, check us out on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. We have new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday.
You will not be disappointed. Thank you, Pod Squad.

And one of these days, we're going to do the sports episode with Glennon. So, come and find us.

okay Glennon you're up well I would just want to say that I don't have as clear a viewpoint as either of you do truly about this situation I do not have a good

clear perspective of what I was like as a kid at all in any way so

I did my best. I actually texted mom last night because she had a couple months ago texted me a poem that she found that I wrote, I think, in third grade.

And then I couldn't find it. So I texted her last night.
I said, can you find that poem?

And then she sent it. And then I just wanted to tell you that she said,

I asked Alice where it was and she found it in five minutes. So I don't really understand that.
Like why she asked her granddaughter's granddaughter knew where the poem was.

Do you know how that happened? Yeah, they were over last night, and apparently my mom said she had texted it to you sometime over the last several years.

So she was going back and looking at several years of photographs and

having as little luck as you would imagine she'd have with that.

And she and Alice said, What are you doing? And she said, I'm looking for this poem that got, and

then

Alice asked what it was about. So apparently there were some search terms like

Reagan,

and war

and things such as this, that it took a couple of search terms, but then Alice found it. And then Tisha thought that she was a genius.
Well, she is a genius. She is a genius.

Do you guys ever wonder what that's going to be like for us in like 30 years?

It already is. Yeah.
I'm like, how do I turn the flashlight on on the phone without it? Oh, I knew it wasn't. It's already going to do that.
No, I never knew how to find my flashlight.

And I also turn it off and then turn it back on just to get to the same screen where I always know the flashlight is.

And same with the camera. I can never find my camera, so I miss every moment, and the whole family has taken 10 pictures before I get out my camera.

Okay, so I have no idea if this poem reflects who I was as a child, but this is what we have to work with. Okay, okay, we'll analyze it.
Okay, this is the poem that I wrote in third grade.

It's called Hope.

Just get ready, pod squad. Libya, Russia, America.

Qaddafi.

Gorbachev.

Reagan.

Three different places, three different people.

Is war the answer?

What is war?

Hatred, tears, and broken hearts. Peace, question mark.

A smile,

handshake,

happiness and trust.

A disagreement

is two different ways of thinking. Oh.

An agreement is a compromise. Oh my God.

Isn't peace the answer? Question mark?

Okay.

What I want to say about this poem

is a couple things.

The only thing that I remember about this poem is a feeling in my body. Okay? I can actually identify a feeling in my body

after having written this poem. And the feeling in my body was,

could be translated as,

this is gonna do it.

I gotta get this to Gorbachev.

100%.

I

typed this last word and thought,

this is what's going to do it.

But it wasn't even that hard. No.
Like, the problem is probably that Gaddafi, Gorbachev, and Reagan just don't know that a disagreement

is two different ways of thinking. And so,

and once they see this, the possibilities that we could have sadness or

we on the other hand we could have smiles and a handshake like when i tell you that i could imagine that somehow this poem that i wrote in miss wilson's class in cherry run in burke virginia was going to find its way to qaddafi gorbachev and reagan and that they were going to probably be sitting around a table and that someone was going to come in and say hark

hark

We have received a poem from Cherry Run, a little girl named Glennon Doyle.

and that they were going to listen and they were going to go,

yes,

peace is the answer. Yeah.
And that that was going to do it. They had never in lo so many negotiations considered that the

question

isn't peace the answer.

They thought

we had never thought of that. They probably hadn't, to be totally honest with you, thought of that.
Yeah, but I just

amazing. Like, let's take aside the whole point of this

in terms of trying to create peace with Russia and the U.S.

I want to just dig into these two lines that make me know you better

and make me understand the way you think about conflict, which is revolutionary for me. Okay.

A disagreement is two different ways of thinking. Yeah.

What?

That's amazing. Okay.
And then an agreement is a compromise.

Yeah, it's not like you have to totally agree with someone to reach an agreement. It's like we have an agreement.
When you think about it, a contract is an agreement.

She probably really didn't want it to narrow out to five cents a day, but we made an agreement. But it's my contract, right?

It's my version of saying, I have a way of looking at this that I think will protect all of us better. Yeah.
And it's just different forms.

But are you saying that you think it's interesting to think about disagreement, not as we're both looking at the same things and drawing different conclusions, but that we are thinking about things in different ways, not necessarily

even having different opinions, just a different thought approach to each problem? Yes, yes, and yes. And also,

I just think it's interesting because it makes me understand the way that you engage, Like,

conflict is like

no, like, that is the worst thing to happen. That is the end of the road.
And for me, reading that when you're however old, how old were you? I think third grade. Third grade.
You're eight years old.

To know that you're like conflict is just two different ways of thinking. It doesn't have to be so serious.

Except it could just be serious. But then, Gorbachev.
But then, on the other hand, an agreement

is a compromise. Yeah.
So that means like there's space in between every bit of it.

Does that make sense? Yes. Like

there's protective measurements inside of it too. Like

in order for us to get to where we need to go,

doesn't mean we have to enmesh ourselves. Right.
Right. Like you're not giving up your entire worldview because you've reached an agreement.
It's not like, okay, you're right about everything. Yes.

It's like an

agreement

is a compromise. It's like, I still think X, you still think Y, but we're agreeing on Z, and I don't have to give up my personhood in reaching an agreement.

It is so important to me. So maybe that was my way of saying the Qaddafi in me sees the Qaddafi in you, and I know that you don't want anyone to change you, Gorbachev.

So,

nor do I.

So, let me present to you war and peace in a different way, not where you have to lose who you are or you're subsumed by anyone else, but in a middle road where we can both remain ourselves and find a path forward.

So, thank you, Abby. Okay, that is something.

And, you know, I just think that I don't know if it's a stretch, but there's some sweetness to a little kid trying to solve war across the planet in her classroom and there's that I feel honoring of my inner child and also there's a bit of a grandiosity to it

there's a bit of a like from whence did I get the idea that anyone asked me to solve this problem as an eight-year-old or like the the idea that if I just put words in of the correct order,

I will be understood and everyone else will understand that the problem in the world is just that no one's written the right poem yet. Yeah.

All the problems in the world result from my failure to communicate.

That's.

Oh my God. I really do believe that.

I really do

believe that. It's some version of the AA personality that's like, I am the piece of shit around which the world revolves.

Narcissism and neuroticism completely hand in hand at the same time.

You know what else I got from that poem?

Thinking very, very carefully about those two lines you just said, I just thought to myself, huh? I think the word diss

comes from having a disagreement with someone. You're dissing them.

Do you think? Oh, I do. Yeah.

That's neither can you do that. I mean, it also could come from like disempowering them or diss it, like a lot, I guess a lot of things, but that might be right.
Maybe, right?

Just throwing it out there for me. I'm glad that that was the takeaway.

Okay,

before we stop, this is what we need to do real quick.

Briefly, I think each of us needs to say,

you know, all the rage of reparenting our inner child.

What is it about our inner our child self that we want to honor and bring into the world? and which parts do we feel like show up in a way that we could

upgrade,

right? Like

in service of that child, now that we have an adult consciousness,

what parts of our inner child do we want to let lead, and which parts do we want to say, oh, honey, maybe not that?

I think I'll just go first, but I think that we all know for me.

No, we don't. Well, we do.
We've talked about it the whole time and during my part, that joy. I'm letting joy lead my life right now and play.
Okay, great.

Amanda? I think that I would like to

honor the part of me that

wants to love and care for myself and the people I love with a lot of energy and resourcefulness and planning and care

and

love that part of me. And I would also

like

to encourage that part of me to

drive less defensively, to

allow life to unfold without

feeling like it's reckless driving

to

allow

I want to figure out

my goal in life these days is to heal my nervous system so that I know what is actual

danger and what is actually just life.

Nice. That's good.
It's really good. Okay, well, I asked you guys the question.
I don't exactly know what mine is, but I think maybe it has to do with

having the goal of expression just be expression and not

thinking that it's some

like

divine job to

fix everything, or

I think that it causes a mess in my life. So,

something about that.

Okay, something about that. And

we love you, pot squad, and thank you for hanging in there with us. Thank you for the question.
That was such a fun. That was so fun.
Yes. And

everybody get a little picture of themselves as a kid and keep it close. That is a hack.
Okay?

Just do that. Just do that.
Put it close to you and see how it changes things for you as you remember your little tender child self doing the best she could. We love you, Pod Squad.
See you next time.

We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human.

And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.