Your Inner Child: Is Yours a Voyager, a Defensive Driver, or a Scuba Diver?

Speaker 1 Here's what's interesting. It's how I've kind of lived the last four or five years of my life.

Speaker 1 Where when there's any perception of stress, I have usually been of the right amount of faculty in my own body to be able to counteract it with joy.

Speaker 1 But I've been so stressed over the last six months that I haven't had myself to counteract any of the perception of anxiety or stress

Speaker 2 with any joy.

Speaker 1 And so I have been actively making our life worse because I'm not injecting what joy we need in the world.

Speaker 2 You're right.

Speaker 3 That is a really good mission statement. And I completely hear you.

Speaker 3 And it is an interesting thing about how stress can just take away your personality. Yeah,

Speaker 1 for me too, because I'm like a presence person. I'm not an anxiety person.
I don't fucking believe in it. I mean, I believe your experience with it.

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know how I got brought into this.

Speaker 3 We were just talking about anxiety in general.

Speaker 2 But wait, was Abby saying that like the anxiety used to be all outside of you so you could bring your life force to counteract it, but now you have anxiety in you so you can't? Yes.

Speaker 1 Like there would be anxiousness in the ether

Speaker 1 out here. And then I'm like,

Speaker 1 I know what to do with this anxiety. I'm going to do some fun joy thing.
And then I can counteract it. And so like it balances it out.

Speaker 1 But then once the anxiety within me has started to rise, I have been unaware and unable to do anything joy-wise.

Speaker 1 So, this is part of my therapy right now: that I am injecting joy into any moment that I can that feels anxious or stressful or too much or overwhelming.

Speaker 2 That's very good.

Speaker 3 I'm sorry that I couldn't step into that balance and be the joy injector that you needed.

Speaker 1 That's not your role.

Speaker 3 I'm not the joy injector.

Speaker 1 No, that's that's not your role.

Speaker 2 That's my role. But it's interesting, you might also want to talk to your therapist about your feeling like your role is to perceive anxiety around you and fix it for your whole life until this point.

Speaker 1 That's step one.

Speaker 1 And that's like varsity level, probably.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 And I think that we're just at JV.

Speaker 2 Because, look,

Speaker 1 the problem is, is not Glennon's anxiety or my anxiety or the world's anxiety. It's how how I am interacting with anxiety within me.

Speaker 1 So, what I am understanding now is that I actually don't have anxiety in me

Speaker 1 when I am experiencing joy and play.

Speaker 1 So, I am learning and working on just bringing in moments of joy and play into my life. And then I actually don't experience anxiety.
I can see it.

Speaker 1 I can see that it's happening, but I'm like, oh, that's not happening in here. I'm going to do something joyful.

Speaker 2 I'm going. It's kind of like a band-aid.
It's like a cure.

Speaker 1 Yes, for me. And I'm not saying this is going to be a cure for everybody, but right now it's helping.
I'm playing music all the time and I'm dancing. We had a dance.
We did dishes.

Speaker 1 Chase played an incredible song, Nina Simone,

Speaker 1 put it on. And I said, okay, you guys, we all have to do our own interpretive dance for the entirety of this song.

Speaker 3 And And the entirety of the dishes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we did.

Speaker 3 We had to dance through the dishes.

Speaker 3 And when anyone would stop, Abby would call it out. So it was important to continue the dancing for the whole dishes.

Speaker 1 Those were the rules.

Speaker 3 Do you have any ideas, babe, about how to...

Speaker 2 I love how you haven't even started the podcast. No, no.

Speaker 2 This was all about a technical...

Speaker 2 stress that happened because of a technical difficulty 30 seconds ago and now we're just talking as if it's the podcast. But we haven't, we should welcome the people into the conversation.

Speaker 3 Oh, they know they're welcome. They know they're here.
They're just here with, they know. They know they're just part of the convo and they're with us always.
They don't need to be formally welcomed.

Speaker 3 Do you have any idea yet?

Speaker 3 how to

Speaker 3 deal with the anxiety that comes when work things are related because I understand

Speaker 3 the idea of, okay, when I turn towards play and rest, I don't have anxiety. But what's the answer to then also doing hard things

Speaker 3 while dealing with anxiety?

Speaker 1 For me, and I can only speak for me, but for me, it's putting a future

Speaker 1 expectation. or a future expectation of experience on something that has yet to exist.

Speaker 1 And that is why bringing joy into the complete present moment makes my body remember, oh, the future is not a thing.

Speaker 1 The present is the thing. And my anxiety is based on a future outcome or a future plan or a future work thing or a future idea of the way I want things to go.
And that's a non-reality right now.

Speaker 3 That's right. So you're not even talking about joy and presence being separate from work.

Speaker 1 Like stopping this to surf would obviously be but you're talking about bringing the joy that you want all the time into every work moment yeah well because i'm i it's it's also a choice i understand that when anxiety comes up um there's not a lot we think we can do about it but what is preceding the moment of anxiousness what is for me what is preceding the moment of overwhelm and it's often a thought it's something it's a thought that this isn't going the way it's supposed to go which is what you're talking about

Speaker 3 with future worry. It is a moment of there's a gap between my expectation of this moment or this person or this thing that is different from the reality, and the gap is the anxiety.
That's right.

Speaker 3 So, if you glut, okay, so it's the theme of this entire podcast for the last five years, which we started with that quote:

Speaker 3 the thing that screws us up the most is the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be.

Speaker 1 Yes, and if you have the power, this is what I've been trying to talk to Emma about in terms of mentally preparing for games.

Speaker 1 If you have the power to create an anxiety with your head,

Speaker 1 with your thoughts, and I understand that there's some biological stuff that this is not applying to, but for me and the way that I've been experiencing anxiety and overwhelm in my life recently, I have been doing it to myself.

Speaker 1 So if I have the power to create the anxiety, then I also have the other power to not

Speaker 1 create something different, which is possibility and hope and motivation and inspiration. So,

Speaker 1 I'm bringing on board my national team experience where it was hard to get fired up to go to train every single day.

Speaker 1 And so, you had to mentally create little things that you were excited about, that you were going to experience joy. And for me, it was like laughing with my teammates.

Speaker 1 It was like telling a funny joke. It was like making fun of our coach because they've got, you know, something in their teeth.
And that was like a little funny thing.

Speaker 1 That like these are the moments I just don't want to miss my life.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I don't want to miss being able to inject the joy wherever I can.

Speaker 1 And to be clear, my life is. totally different than it was last Friday since I've started doing this.

Speaker 1 Completely, where I'm just like, I'm going to fucking throw joy at everything.

Speaker 1 I'm going to throw play and fun at every little bit of my life, even if it feels like hard. Like, okay, fine, I can do this.

Speaker 1 So I feel passionate about it.

Speaker 3 You're the best. And I love that you keep saying the word inject because that is how I experience it.

Speaker 3 Like, it's like when you were little and they used to hold you down and inject vaccines into, and they would be like, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you.

Speaker 3 And it's just going to hurt for a second.

Speaker 3 Like, that is how sometimes when my anxiety is high, I feel the joy as a hold-down injection that does, in fact, make me feel better, but it's against my will.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Right? That's how I feel every time I leave the house.
Yeah. It's like, I know that I'll feel better after I do this thing, but God damn it.

Speaker 2 Go do it.

Speaker 2 Like, it's not like a looking forward. It's like a,

Speaker 2 okay,

Speaker 2 fine. I'll do the thing that keeps me human even though I'd rather just stay unhumaned.
Totally.

Speaker 3 Well, it's a lot of effort to maintain all your anxiety. Like you can't be distracted from it because

Speaker 3 you are make-believe holding the whole world together. It's a big ass job that no one gave you, that you volunteer for and that doesn't work.

Speaker 2 But it's also a lot of effort to to do the things that you need to do to enliven yourself. Which is when you're feeling like you're already so overwhelmed.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm over here exhausted, just holding all this anxiety. I can't add a different job, which is to unanxiety myself.

Speaker 3 I just saw this meme, you guys, that I kept and now I look at every day because it makes me so happy. And it says, 90% of what you worry about doesn't come true.

Speaker 2 See, worrying works.

Speaker 2 That's how

Speaker 2 I feel.

Speaker 3 How did we turn it to mean, so don't worry. It's working, you guys.

Speaker 2 Barely anything we worry about happens.

Speaker 3 That 10%,

Speaker 3 you probably forgot.

Speaker 2 You probably didn't worry about that enough.

Speaker 3 Somebody probably injected you with joy and you dropped the ball on that 10%.

Speaker 2 That's so good. Okay, anyway.

Speaker 1 Yeah, what are we talking about today, y'all?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 3 we have a precious question from one of the pod squatters that I thought it might be fun to spiral around and ask you guys about.

Speaker 3 We've had a couple conversations about this recently, adorably, and the question is: this

Speaker 3 Abby Amanda Glennon, what were each of you like as little kids, and which part of that kid still shows up every day?

Speaker 3 So I thought it would be fun to start with Amanda on this one.

Speaker 2 Great. Okay, I brought a show and tell

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 to answer this question of what I was like as a kid because I thought it illustrative.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I'm going to show it.

Speaker 2 I would like to draw your attention for those listening. Don't worry, you're not going to miss a thing.
I'm going to, like Abby not missing her life, we're not going to let you miss a thing.

Speaker 2 I'm going to tell you everything about what I'm holding. Okay.

Speaker 3 This, my

Speaker 2 mother, recently presented to me, and it is when I was six or seven,

Speaker 2 apparently

Speaker 2 created this contract.

Speaker 2 Okay, so this Glennon was a contract that I drafted at

Speaker 2 six or seven with you.

Speaker 2 And what I'm gonna read it, and what I have surmised from this is that you came to me asking to borrow seven dollars.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 okay, so at the top it says loans.

Speaker 2 Loan, seven

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 This is all written in red magic marker on yellow

Speaker 3 lined paper. And judging by your handwriting, how old do you think you are?

Speaker 2 Well, my handwriting is still this shitty.

Speaker 2 But based on your handwriting,

Speaker 2 I think that I was like six or seven. Yeah.
Which would have made you like nine or ten. Right.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. Loan $7 for t-shirt

Speaker 2 specified for t-shirt. I mean, first of all, that's a load of shit because I don't think you're going to get a t-shirt for $7.

Speaker 3 Well, that's why you put it in quotes. Right.

Speaker 2 T-shirt in quotes.

Speaker 3 That just shows you didn't believe me.

Speaker 2 She was getting a pack of cigarettes, but she has reported for the official document that she's getting.

Speaker 1 T-shirt.

Speaker 2 Okay, the interest, which is misspelled, is 70 cents.

Speaker 2 Okay, I'm going to charge you 10% interest on this t-shirt amount. Your client, Glennon Doyle.

Speaker 2 Okay, then there's a notation that says more each week not paid, 30 cents.

Speaker 3 How did you even know about interest or more each week not paid?

Speaker 2 Like, what the hell? Unclear to me. Unclear.

Speaker 2 Apparently, I have required some kind of

Speaker 2 assurance in the form of collateral, which I have written down, job, babysitter. That's what you're going to do to get the money to repay me.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Date, Monday, 5th of August. We don't have a year.
No, Monday, 5th of August.

Speaker 2 Here, okay, the memo. I've written memo.
$7

Speaker 2 is the loan for a quote t-shirt for Glenn.

Speaker 2 Witch, which is spelled W-H-I-T-C-H. I've always been a bad speller and everything.

Speaker 3 Always thought I was a witch.

Speaker 2 Yes. Always had bad handwriting.
Witch, pay it back by babysitting.

Speaker 2 Each week not paid, I will raise the price 30 cents, which narrows out to five cents a day

Speaker 2 it's important to know that it narrows out to five cents yes

Speaker 2 okay over it says then we flip it over

Speaker 2 loaner

Speaker 2 okay I have my signature there signer this is your signature apparently I have some notes on this contract apparently I have also added myself as a co-signer to the loan which inadvertently makes me liable on the same

Speaker 2 seven dollar total plus interest, which narrowed out at 5 cents a day is now quite high.

Speaker 2 But you owe myself a lot of... You're my backer.
Yeah, you're my. Yeah, I have added myself as a co-signer.
Okay. I didn't yet understand the nuance of the law.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Memo for signatures. Okay, I have allowed you a memorandum section where you say,

Speaker 2 Doesn't have to be a t-shirt that I spend the money. It was cigarettes.
It was.

Speaker 2 Whatever it was for.

Speaker 2 You knew good and well that you didn't want to be on the hook for signing this document for a t-shirt when you sure as shit were not spending the money on that.

Speaker 2 Okay, then I would like to draw your attention to I have it notarized with a dinosaur stamp. Unbelievable.

Speaker 1 How did you know how to do all this? Like, there was no internet at this point.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I'll tell you what I've always known how to do, Abby, is protect myself

Speaker 1 from me. But like, did you like,

Speaker 1 did you like look like, did you ask your parents like how, how does a contract work?

Speaker 3 No, my parents would never know that.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 2 I don't know. But it's absolutely hilarious and

Speaker 2 I love it and also a little sad.

Speaker 3 Which narrows out to

Speaker 2 five cents a day. Flat rate, 70%, more each week, not paid 30%.

Speaker 3 I mean, I just want the pod squad to imagine this scenario where I just walk into my sister's room and ask her for $7.

Speaker 3 And basically, her little six-year-old self is like, this bitch is not getting away with this again.

Speaker 2 Phone me 15 times.

Speaker 3 And so she sits down at her little desk in her little room and drafts up a contract, which, by the way, maybe we can understand that you understand interest at six to seven.

Speaker 3 What I cannot abide by is that you understood that you had to figure out how

Speaker 3 I was going to employ myself to pay the money back.

Speaker 2 How did you know that?

Speaker 3 That's like

Speaker 2 bank loan level.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and like notarizing with a dinosaur stamp.

Speaker 2 Like what the fuck?

Speaker 2 Well, I don't, um, I don't know. I don't remember.
I can only imagine that maybe you had borrowed money from me a couple times. Perhaps.
And not paid me back.

Speaker 2 Maybe, I don't know, but I actually don't even remember. I don't know if that was true.
Maybe I just was like, well, this is what a responsible steward of her funds would do.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 2 I do think that it's interesting because I think that

Speaker 2 is kind of,

Speaker 2 it's cute and funny and clearly I was like meant to be a lawyer.

Speaker 2 But also I think it is demonstrates a little bit, which is that I was thinking this morning about it. I'm like, what does that say about me? And I think it's like,

Speaker 2 if defensive driving was a personality,

Speaker 2 that's what I'd be.

Speaker 1 That's so good.

Speaker 2 It's not enough to drive safely and think you're going to get there safe.

Speaker 2 You need to anticipate that everyone else is going to be swerving in front of you and making crazy turns and slippery conditions and

Speaker 2 just be prepared for everything

Speaker 2 that might happen

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 everything is not to be trusted and we have to be prepared to not get screwed.

Speaker 3 Yes. And where do you think in your wildest imagination, who knows these questions? Who knows, okay? No one's pathologizing anyone here.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 But like where,

Speaker 2 you know, like where do you think

Speaker 3 where do you think that came from? You're just born that way? Like, were you born with a pen and a ledger? Like, or

Speaker 3 was this a learned thing? How does one become this? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think there was probably

Speaker 2 a lot of things that I was like, this seems a little

Speaker 2 much,

Speaker 2 and this seems like I have to be ready

Speaker 1 for

Speaker 2 what might happen. And it seems like I should

Speaker 2 take on the responsibility of making sure

Speaker 2 that I can

Speaker 2 make myself

Speaker 1 safe,

Speaker 2 make the world orderly, that like if I if the world isn't like orderly and predictable and

Speaker 2 understandable around around me, I will find a means to make it so. And so that

Speaker 2 feels like kind of a tool of that. Like that's what if I was pathologizing myself, I would say like

Speaker 2 the kid who's seven and

Speaker 2 is just sure she's gonna get screwed and that something's gonna go wrong is gonna f not wanna live that way and be like, well, the law will protect me. My dinosaur stamp will protect me from any

Speaker 2 foreseeable offenses against me.

Speaker 3 So sweet.

Speaker 2 So maybe. Sweet.
I mean, there's good parts about that, too. That's like you can find, you can live in uncertainty and be like, the world is uncertain and I have no control, so what am I going to do?

Speaker 2 Or you can be like, what are the structures around that can make it

Speaker 2 better

Speaker 2 and more predictable? But I think I've maybe taken that a little extreme in my life.

Speaker 2 Well, don't we all?

Speaker 3 But it also makes me feel like

Speaker 3 I've always thought it was weird that we only, like, people who go more towards

Speaker 3 arty things or even adaptive behaviors like alcohol or addiction or whatever are always considered the sensitive people.

Speaker 3 And then people who go towards more an analytic thing or something don't get that. Because I actually think of that as a compliment.
Like if you're sensitive, that means you're taking things in.

Speaker 3 And I think it's often suggested that people who go towards a more analytical thing

Speaker 3 are missing that. But actually, it's just an exact,

Speaker 3 it's just another way of sorting the world. Or if you feel you're in a boundaryless place of creating boundaries,

Speaker 3 that's just was your your art to to create a scaffolding to protect yourself a little bit.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they're both coping mechanisms. You're like, if I can't cope with whatever reality is, I'm either going to exit this reality,

Speaker 2 which is part of

Speaker 2 what those addictions things are. Like, I'm going to go over here.
I'm going to numb out of this reality. But it takes an equal amount of sensitivity to be like, this reality isn't working.

Speaker 2 What other

Speaker 2 realities can I bring

Speaker 2 to make this more orderly and make more sense? And I think, I think that's,

Speaker 2 I think that's true. And I think sometimes in family systems, there are like feelers and fixers.

Speaker 2 And this would actually have been right around the time that like we discovered your eating disorders.

Speaker 2 And I think I kind of like typecast myself very early as like, you're not a feeler, you're a fixer. You're like a see

Speaker 2 what you can do about the problems and address them, but you're not like a feeler of the problems.

Speaker 1 Sister, I have a question. So,

Speaker 1 as like a

Speaker 1 younger sibling,

Speaker 1 I understand like

Speaker 1 surveying the scene of the family system,

Speaker 1 and your sister maybe

Speaker 1 gets sick or becomes the quote-unquote identified patient in your family system.

Speaker 1 Do you think that you just decided to be the fixer

Speaker 1 bypassing any

Speaker 1 ability to be a feeler.

Speaker 1 Do you think it was a conscious choice? You were like, well, I'm not going to go down that road. I'm going to just go down this road.
And I guess the question is,

Speaker 2 is,

Speaker 1 do you know what I'm trying to ask here?

Speaker 3 Yeah, kind of. Like, does it rob you of something and just you rob it of yourself?

Speaker 1 Or was it force? Yeah, so it feels like there was like a

Speaker 1 chicken or egg. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because it happens both ways. And then the feeler is like, well, I I can't a fixer.
Yes. I can't do that shit.
And then you abandon half your personality.

Speaker 3 You, so I think it's a beautiful question. Like, did taking on the fixerness, whether it was chosen or not, force you to abandon the feeler self?

Speaker 2 I think it's probably

Speaker 2 very true

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 I abandoned the feeler self. And that has like been a thread through the whole

Speaker 2 so many of our conversations and even this season of the like, do you have that? Do you not have that? Everybody has that. Where is it? You know, like, I think I did

Speaker 2 kind of abandon that part early. So it's like incredibly underdeveloped.

Speaker 2 But I don't know whether it's,

Speaker 2 and I wouldn't necessarily say that it is, like, I want to be very careful not to say that it is Glennon getting sick

Speaker 2 that made me abandon that. I think

Speaker 2 Glennon

Speaker 2 got sick for the same reasons

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 I abandoned that. In other words, correct.
That's

Speaker 2 really good.

Speaker 2 There wasn't a capacity. Like there was not room for two feelers.

Speaker 2 Right. There wasn't or one.

Speaker 1 Right. So like clearly.

Speaker 2 Clearly, it's like read a room.

Speaker 2 This isn't even going well.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 it's sure as shit not gonna work to have two people like that and it's so

Speaker 2 um

Speaker 2 so I think it's I think it's like all part of the same yeah bag in a way but I don't think that I consciously did that I think that like I became kind of a foil

Speaker 2 and then it was like then I just kept going. Yep.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's a very generous reframe though, because sometimes like it's present, family systems are presented as like, even if it's accidental, as, well, one person's the sick person and then everybody reacts to that person, one, that kid, and creates their...

Speaker 3 But what I hear you saying is there's something in the water

Speaker 3 and the same thing in the water that creates the sick one creates the fixer. But the origin is the water the family is swimming in.

Speaker 3 It's not a chain reaction of one becomes one and then everybody else falls into line. The same water that made me say, I'm out of here,

Speaker 3 I protect myself by disappearing through addiction, is the same water that said, I'll protect myself through legal means.

Speaker 2 Right. And not for nothing.
Like if

Speaker 2 that had, if your solution had

Speaker 2 been effective,

Speaker 2 in other words, if your cry for help by disappearing had been effective in relocating you and being like, oh, here's what is needed. We can do this.
Then I would have been like, oh,

Speaker 2 there is

Speaker 2 maybe room

Speaker 2 for a whole person. But like, I think both of those things together play in.
Yeah. You know?

Speaker 2 Cool.

Speaker 3 Babe, are you, is there anything else you want to say in honor of your your little kid self before we move on to Abby?

Speaker 3 Or did you want to write something up about the time each of us is taking and make sure we're allotting it correctly?

Speaker 2 I'm charging interest if you go over your time.

Speaker 2 Which even narrows out to, you owe me a shit ton of money.

Speaker 3 I'm trying, this is not important, but my brain's trying to figure out what words you meant, which averages out to. Yeah.
You meant which averages out to. Okay, which narrows out.

Speaker 2 Which narrows out to.

Speaker 2 And I spelled a witch three different ways. Yes.

Speaker 3 Well, you got to try it every way because you know you'll get it right once. You're just trying to use formal language too, which is so cute.

Speaker 3 And that just reminds me of my wife, who yesterday did say to me that

Speaker 3 it gave me advice that if I did a certain thing, it would behoove me. It would behoove me if I did this thing.
And if I tried it, then maybe things would go more swimmingly.

Speaker 3 And I just thought, from which, from whence are you?

Speaker 3 Who says this will behoove you in casual conversation? And it will go swimmingly. It's just amazing, my Victorian wife.

Speaker 2 I would like to know what the opposite of behoove is. I would like to start using that in sentences.
It will not behoove you. It will unhoo.
Undehoove you. It will de-hoove you.

Speaker 2 It will dehoohoove you. I love that.

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Speaker 3 Mary Abigail,

Speaker 3 what do you want to tell us about what you were like as a little kid? and what parts still show up today? Well, that's what the pod squatter wants to know.

Speaker 1 Well, I've been doing quite a bit of parts work with my therapist.

Speaker 1 And oftentimes,

Speaker 1 there's a lot of parts that I have inside of me that are very young.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think that I was a very obnoxious child.

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 1 My high school basketball and soccer coach just got inducted to our high school

Speaker 1 Hall of Fame.

Speaker 2 I think it did.

Speaker 1 Well, because she was great and won a lot of things.

Speaker 1 And I was talking to her, and she was telling me about all the people that came and helped get her inducted. And

Speaker 1 one of the stories was one of the women came up to her and said, God, that Abby Wombach, she was so annoying as a kid.

Speaker 1 Like, she was so loud. And they were joking.
It wasn't.

Speaker 2 No, but that's still.

Speaker 1 But I think that I was. Like, I think I was like, I was a kid who just wanted to be completely in all of the experience of life.

Speaker 1 And so I was louder than most kids were. I was more confident than most kids were.

Speaker 1 And I don't say that to make you guys feel like you need to protect me. You can kind of, you can put your protector parts down.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm super pissed. I haven't listened to anything since you said that that bitch walked up there and said that Abby was obnoxious.

Speaker 1 Well, she didn't say it on stage. She was just, they were talking about it with each other.
Like, isn't it so interesting that she's become who she's become in the world?

Speaker 1 But she was kind of like, you know, the loud, you know, would jump on your back and like mess your hair up. And back in like the 80s, hair was a thing for girls.

Speaker 2 They just started.

Speaker 3 That is obnoxious. Hairspray.

Speaker 1 You know, and I would like jump on my sister's friends' backs and I would mess up their perms and their big claw bangs.

Speaker 2 Abby, did you tell them that well-behaved women rarely make history? Did you tell them?

Speaker 1 And so, I think that, like, I've been fondly thinking of my younger self because she had a knowing

Speaker 1 that was not yet proven

Speaker 1 by life experience yet, but like a deep belief.

Speaker 1 And I really like that kid.

Speaker 1 And so, I think one of the things that I come into contact with now in my adulthood is I have kind of pushed aside the obnoxious parts of myself,

Speaker 1 of my childlike self,

Speaker 1 for fear of rejection or for

Speaker 1 fear of

Speaker 1 conflict or tumult.

Speaker 2 Because it behooves you.

Speaker 1 In my family dynamic, in my friends dynamic, in my world dynamic,

Speaker 1 I have kind of cast aside my child self

Speaker 1 for belonging.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 one of the biggest, one of the greatest stories of my relationship life is that I am too much. That eventually my partner will see that I am this obnoxious thing, that they need to

Speaker 1 slowly and methodically and lovingly, but methodically make me more of an adult version of the childlike self. And I am

Speaker 1 in complete and utter revolt on that right now in my therapy.

Speaker 1 I realize that I am in communion with and belonging with other people and in relation with my family and my wife, and I think that that's really important.

Speaker 1 That I do make compromise and I'm not obnoxious and loud all the time because we're living communally, and I think that that's important.

Speaker 1 But I think that there are parts to my childlike self that I miss, that I don't want to push aside. Like,

Speaker 1 and this is not

Speaker 1 the greatest example,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 I have had such

Speaker 1 an extraordinary time playing.

Speaker 1 And the reason why I was such a good soccer player is because I really did think of it for a long time as something I just got to play.

Speaker 1 It wasn't like,

Speaker 1 yes, it was hard, but there were so, like the times when I was absolutely at my best on the field was when I just felt like, oh my gosh, like I have the, I'm the luckiest person.

Speaker 1 I have this insanely awesome job. I get to travel the world.
This is before I got tired and old and things started to hurt more.

Speaker 1 where it became less fun and less playful and became more work and hard.

Speaker 1 But I want to get back to the

Speaker 1 cultivating because it's a mindset for me like i'm trying to cultivate this mindset of child like awe and openness and play and fun

Speaker 1 and i'm not going to fall victim to the world or capitalism or um business or parenting like my god parenting is the number one killer of play

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 2 It is.

Speaker 1 Because all you're doing is you're obsessing obsessing and you're responsible for not letting harm come to these children. And so it takes up so much of your spirit and your mind.

Speaker 1 And you have to, like, there's something that happens that, like, you, you have to pretend being an adult. I have to feel, sometimes I feel like I have to pretend being an adult a lot.

Speaker 2 Totally. That's all I feel.

Speaker 1 That I'm like, I know what I've, I know what's going on here. And we've, I've got this.
I've got you guys.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I I don't.

Speaker 3 I don't got you.

Speaker 2 I don't got nothing.

Speaker 1 I'm just like a child who

Speaker 1 is kind of obnoxious and says weird shit sometimes. And I don't know why, but like sometimes people think it's funny.
Sometimes people think it's obnoxious.

Speaker 2 Sometimes people are offended by it.

Speaker 1 So anyway, this is a long time.

Speaker 2 Sometimes all three in one.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Did I do it just then?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 I

Speaker 2 also know

Speaker 1 that sometimes we do have to adapt

Speaker 1 in our

Speaker 1 childlike ways

Speaker 1 so that they don't become maladaptive.

Speaker 1 And so one of the things I really want to talk about is this idea of the wound that happened in me when I was a child where I didn't think that I was getting enough quality attention.

Speaker 1 from the people that I really wanted it from, which was my mom and my dad.

Speaker 1 I should just say my mother, because I didn't actually,

Speaker 1 I never felt a wound for my dad not noticing. I really wanted my mother's attention.

Speaker 1 When you have seven people that you are tending to, as my mother did, she only had space for me for a little bit of time, right? And she did her best. I really do believe that she did her best.

Speaker 1 But for this spirit, it wasn't necessary, it wasn't enough. And so then I started using as a coping mechanism

Speaker 1 sports

Speaker 1 to get the undivided attention that I was seeking, which then became a maladaptive practice of actually not feeling worthy enough, right? Like,

Speaker 3 is any of this making sense? Yes! Your performance, your worthiness came from performance instead of existence.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 It's also making sense of jumping on people's back and stealing their claw clips if you're not getting enough attention at all. Yes.

Speaker 2 It really does. It's a direct line, really.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I really love that little kid because that little kid had to have these big dreams. And I've really

Speaker 2 thought a lot about

Speaker 1 trying to understand how a person

Speaker 1 can,

Speaker 1 in their minds,

Speaker 1 believe deeply that they could win an Olympic gold medal without women's soccer even being in the Olympics yet.

Speaker 1 Like, I think about that a lot. Like, because you did tell them about that.

Speaker 3 You used to write.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think I might have talked about this on the pod squad before, but on the pod before, but I used to write in a journal in eighth grade prior to women's soccer being in the summer Olympics.

Speaker 1 My name is Abby Wambach, and I will win an Olympic gold medal for women's soccer.

Speaker 2 You know what that is? That's obnoxious.

Speaker 3 Yes. Like the level of

Speaker 2 obnoxious you have to be to believe that you're going to win a gold medal in something that doesn't exist is the same thing. Like it's the blessing and the curse.

Speaker 3 You're jumping on life and you're just messing up its hair. Yeah.
It's just like holding on for dear life.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 And it's obnoxious and also sweet.

Speaker 3 In a good way. That's what you're saying.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No, I'm saying the same life force is in both things.

Speaker 1 I've always been the kind of person that

Speaker 1 knew there was more out there for me to experience and explore. I'm an experiential human.

Speaker 1 And when I was a kid, I think a lot of my anxiety, like a lot of my frustration was that I felt like there was so much more that I just, it was like just beyond my vision.

Speaker 1 you know and so i had to curate a lot of this inside of myself and i had to like dream up a lot of this and now how this has become a little bit maladaptive for me is that we, Glenn and you and I, are trying to define and determine what enough is.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 1 the thing that propelled me into the greatest experience of life I could envision was this utter belief and this intuition that there was something more I could be a part of and create with and experience.

Speaker 1 And now

Speaker 1 there's the conversation that we're having is like, is what what we have right now enough rather than going out and trying to express more dream, more experience into the world?

Speaker 1 And I think that's where I struggle. That's where I'm struggling right now.

Speaker 3 That makes such good sense.

Speaker 1 In like the maladaptive approach to this worthiness,

Speaker 1 childlike wonder, ah, play, bringing it into adulthood.

Speaker 1 But does

Speaker 1 shutting down

Speaker 1 are the dreams that I have just

Speaker 1 me participating more in capitalism and being like on the treadmill of keeping up with the Joneses?

Speaker 1 Or is it a part of my constitution and my spirit around what I know makes me the happiest, around exploring the world and being in the most different and interesting experiences that this body can be in?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 1 That's all I'm going to say.

Speaker 3 Well, it's really making sense of,

Speaker 3 I don't think I mentioned this before, but when we were having that conversation about

Speaker 3 is it possible that we just, everything we've ever dreamed of and need and want is already here and we don't have to strive for anything else, that what if the dream of the next thing is ruining

Speaker 3 is a false thing? Like is the pursuit of happiness being the problem as opposed to just being happy?

Speaker 3 The American dream being the problem as opposed to like looking at reality and saying, this is beautiful, this is good enough.

Speaker 3 And I, as we were talking about that, Abby looked at me and said,

Speaker 3 I feel like you're talking about end-of-life stuff.

Speaker 3 And I've, and I just didn't even know what she meant.

Speaker 3 And then I, but I've been thinking about that so much, and I think it's so fascinating because the way I was thinking about it was like, oh, she equates the striving or the the reaching towards whatever's next as life itself.

Speaker 3 So if you stop that and just sit in the enoughness, then that is what people do before they die.

Speaker 2 That's giving up.

Speaker 3 That's giving up. That's giving up.
Right. And so that's how I was thinking about why she said that.
But I think also what you're saying is it has to do with your identity.

Speaker 3 Like what you have,

Speaker 3 the way you have always experienced the world is adventure. So

Speaker 3 you're, I'm, you're hearing me say, what if we don't adventure anymore? Not, okay, got it.

Speaker 2 The way something was

Speaker 2 introduced to you, if it was like

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 2 weapon against you or an invitation for you. And it sounds like for you, the like loud, obnoxious girl who was dreaming of things that didn't exist and was being told subtly or overtly,

Speaker 2 what you have is enough. Just stop.

Speaker 3 Just, it's fine.

Speaker 2 Be grateful. Stop.
It's enough. It was being used as like a weapon to tamp you down and to like contain

Speaker 1 you.

Speaker 2 And of course, then when someone tells you,

Speaker 2 isn't this enough? you're gonna receive it within that same framework, which is, well, you're just asking me to stop expanding and to stop dreaming and to stop, you know,

Speaker 2 finding who who I am. And so that makes total sense because it's the original framework is how, of course, you're going to have to deal with that before you get to the other side.

Speaker 1 That's right. That's a good way of putting it too.
Yeah. Interesting.
It's kind of scary to me. Like, like when you said that, I just, I felt like,

Speaker 1 I felt, honestly, I felt like, oh, this is how we end it.

Speaker 1 This is how we go. I know that sounds insane.

Speaker 3 I don't think it does. I don't think it does.

Speaker 1 And I also completely understand

Speaker 2 like the

Speaker 1 experiment and the thought experiment of like,

Speaker 1 is it

Speaker 1 my life force energy or is it

Speaker 1 a proxy to

Speaker 1 the capitalistic treadmill? Right. Like what is it? Like what is the where is it coming from?

Speaker 1 Is this the essence of me in my my in the way that i experience the world and my life and the vision of my life or is it

Speaker 1 the conditions that i've been a part of that are making me chase something more for like relevance and well there's two different ways though like for example if you're on a boat

Speaker 3 There is the way of looking at adventure that is like this boat that we're on needs to go somewhere else, needs to voyage somewhere else, right? That

Speaker 3 there's a new destination where joy will be, there's a new place. But there's also the kind of adventure that's like, I'm going to scuba dive.

Speaker 3 Like, I'm going to jump off this boat and I'm going to see what's in the sea right below me.

Speaker 3 So, I guess what I wonder is, is there a way of melding the two? Like, is there a way of using your adventure spirit,

Speaker 3 your beautiful childlike passion to mine every moment for as much joy as possible. And instead of leading the boat somewhere else for that adventure, scuba diving into what we have right now.

Speaker 3 And like mining

Speaker 3 everything,

Speaker 3 where we live and our relationship and our like the

Speaker 3 everything around us, diving deeper into that.

Speaker 3 Because what I think is when you move the boat over and over again as your only form of adventure, you miss 90% of the joy that was in the place you just were.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get that for sure. And that's the struggle I feel like, the tension that I'm experiencing right now

Speaker 1 in

Speaker 1 thinking about a retirement and

Speaker 1 how do I want to feel in that retirement.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to reorganize my mind around whether or not I can achieve the feeling that I'm thinking about and hoping to experience in my retirement in the current, the exact current place that we are right now.

Speaker 1 I don't know if there needs to be some sort of

Speaker 1 movement of the boat or not. I don't know.

Speaker 3 I don't know is a great answer. And now it's time for our ads.

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Thanks to Qualia for sponsoring this episode. Hi, Pod Squad.
Abby here.

Speaker 1 I'm here with my friend and co-host of our new show, Welcome to the Party. Hi, Pod Squad.
We would love to invite you over to check out our new show, Welcome to the Party.

Speaker 1 It's really about the sports for those of you who might not be sports focused or centric, but it's also about celebrating and uplifting the stories around athletes and leaders across soccer, basketball, hockey, softball, the Olympics, you name it.

Speaker 1 It is our mission to bring the joy and love of sport and these women to all of

Speaker 1 If you don't know all of them, it's okay because we'll explain it to you. So check us out on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 We have new episodes every Tuesday and Thursday. You will not be disappointed.
Thank you, Pod Squad. And one of these days, we're going to do the sports episode with Glennon.
So come find us.

Speaker 2 Okay, Glennon, you're up.

Speaker 3 Well, I would just want to say that I don't have as clear a viewpoint as either of you do truly about this situation i do not have a good

Speaker 2 uh

Speaker 3 clear perspective of what i was like as a kid at all in any way

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 i did i did my best i actually texted mom last night because she had a couple months ago texted me a poem that she found that i wrote i think in third grade

Speaker 3 um and then i couldn't find it. So I texted her last night.
I said, can you find that poem?

Speaker 3 And then she sent it. And then I just wanted to tell you that she said,

Speaker 3 I asked Alice where it was, and she found it in five minutes. So I don't really understand that.

Speaker 2 Like why she asked her granddaughter's granddaughter knew where the poem was.

Speaker 2 Do you know how that happened? Yeah, they were over last night, and apparently

Speaker 2 my mom said she had texted it to you sometime over the last several years.

Speaker 2 She was going back and looking at several years of photographs and

Speaker 2 having as little luck as you would imagine she'd have with that.

Speaker 2 And she and Alice said, what are you doing? And she said, I'm looking for this poem that, and

Speaker 2 then

Speaker 2 Alice asked what it was about. So apparently there were some search terms like Reagan,

Speaker 2 and war

Speaker 2 and things such as this, that it took a couple of search terms, but then Alice found it, and then Tisha thought that she was a genius. Well, she is a genius.

Speaker 3 She is a genius.

Speaker 1 Do you guys ever wonder what that's going to be like for us in like 30 years?

Speaker 2 It already is. Yeah.
I'm like, how do I turn the flashlight on on the phone without it? Like,

Speaker 2 it's already like

Speaker 2 that.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure how to find my flashlight.

Speaker 2 And I also turn it off and then turn it back on just to get to the same screen where I know you know what the flashlight is.

Speaker 3 And same with the camera. I can never find my camera, so I miss every moment.
and the whole family has taken 10 pictures before I get out my camera.

Speaker 3 Okay, so I have no idea if this poem reflects who I was as a child, but this is what we have to work with, okay?

Speaker 2 Okay, we'll analyze it.

Speaker 3 Okay, this is the poem that I wrote in third grade.

Speaker 3 It's called Hope.

Speaker 3 Just get ready, pod squad. Libya, Russia, America,

Speaker 3 Qaddafi,

Speaker 3 Gorbachev,

Speaker 3 Reagan.

Speaker 3 Three different places, three different people.

Speaker 3 Is war the answer?

Speaker 3 What is war?

Speaker 3 Hatred, tears, and broken hearts.

Speaker 2 Peace, question mark,

Speaker 3 a smile,

Speaker 3 handshake,

Speaker 3 happiness, and trust.

Speaker 3 A disagreement

Speaker 3 is two different ways of thinking.

Speaker 2 Oh.

Speaker 3 An agreement is a compromise.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Isn't peace the answer?

Speaker 3 Question mark?

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 What I want to say about this poem

Speaker 3 is a couple things.

Speaker 3 The only thing that I remember about this poem is a feeling in my body.

Speaker 2 Okay?

Speaker 3 I can actually identify a feeling in my body having written after having written this poem. And the feeling in my body was

Speaker 3 could be translated as

Speaker 3 this is gonna do it.

Speaker 2 I gotta get this to Gorbachev!

Speaker 2 100%.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 3 typed this last word and thought,

Speaker 3 this is what's gonna do it.

Speaker 2 But it wasn't even that hard.

Speaker 3 No, like, the problem is probably that Gaddafi, Gorbachev, and Reagan just don't know that a disagreement

Speaker 3 is two different ways of thinking. And so,

Speaker 3 and once they see this, the possibilities that we could have sadness or

Speaker 3 we, on the other hand, we could have smiles and a handshake.

Speaker 3 Like when I tell you that I could imagine that somehow this poem that I wrote in Miss Wilson's class in Cherry Run in Berkeley

Speaker 3 was going to find its way to Qaddafi, Gorbachev, and Reagan, and that they were going to probably be sitting around a table and that someone was going to come in and say, Hark,

Speaker 2 hark!

Speaker 2 We have received a poem from Cherry Run, a little girl named Glennon Doyle.

Speaker 3 And that they were going to listen and they were going to go,

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 3 peace is the answer.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that that was going to do it.

Speaker 2 They had never in lo so many negotiations considered that the

Speaker 2 question

Speaker 2 isn't peace the answer

Speaker 2 They thought

Speaker 2 we had never thought of that They probably hadn't to be totally honest with you thought of that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but I just

Speaker 1 amazing like let's take aside the whole point of this Yeah in terms of like trying to create peace with Russia and the U.S.

Speaker 1 I want to just dig into these two lines that make me know you better

Speaker 1 and make me understand the way you think about conflict, which is revolutionary for me.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 A disagreement is two different ways of thinking.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 That's amazing. Okay.
And then an agreement is a compromise.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's not like you have to totally agree with someone to reach an agreement. It's like we have an agreement.
When you think about it, a contract is an agreement.

Speaker 2 She probably really didn't want it to narrow out to five cents a day, but we made an agreement.

Speaker 3 But it's my contract, right? It's my version of saying, I have a way of looking at this that I think will protect all of us better.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it's just different forms.

Speaker 3 But are you saying that you think it's interesting to think about disagreement, not as we're both looking at the same things and drawing different conclusions but that we are thinking about things in different ways not necessarily

Speaker 3 even having different opinions yes just a different thought approach to each problem yes yes and yes and also

Speaker 1 i just think it's interesting because it makes me understand the way that you engage like

Speaker 1 conflict is like

Speaker 1 No, like that is the worst thing to happen. That is the end of the road.

Speaker 2 And for me, reading that when you're however old, how old are you?

Speaker 3 I think a third grade.

Speaker 2 Third grade.

Speaker 1 You're eight years old.

Speaker 1 To know that you're like conflict is just two different ways of thinking. It doesn't have to be so serious.

Speaker 2 Exactly. It could be serious.

Speaker 1 But then Gorbachev. But then, on the other hand, an agreement

Speaker 1 is a compromise. Yeah.
So that means like there's space in between every bit of it. Right.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 Like there's

Speaker 1 there's protective measurements inside of it too. Like

Speaker 1 in order for us to get to where we need to go,

Speaker 1 doesn't mean we have to enmesh ourselves.

Speaker 2 Right. Right.
Like you're not giving up your entire worldview because you've reached an agreement. It's not like, okay, you're right about everything.
Yes. It's like an agreement

Speaker 2 is a compromise. It's like, I still think X, you you still think Y, but we're agreeing on Z and I don't have to like give up my personhood in reaching that agreement.

Speaker 3 It is so important to me. So maybe that was my way of saying the Qadafian me sees the Qaddafi in you and I know that you don't want anyone to change you, Gorbachev.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 nor do I. So let me present to you.
War and Peace in a different way.

Speaker 3 Not where you have to lose who you are or you're subsumed by anyone else, but in a middle road where we can both remain ourselves and find a path forward so thank you Abby okay that is something

Speaker 3 and you know I just think that I don't know if it's a stretch but there's some sweetness

Speaker 3 to a little kid trying to solve war across the planet in her classroom And there's that I feel honoring of my inner child. And also there's a bit of a grandiosity to it.

Speaker 3 There's a bit of a like, from whence did I get the idea that anyone asked me to solve this problem as an eight-year-old? Or like the idea that if I just put words in the correct order,

Speaker 3 I will be understood and everyone else will understand. That the problem in the world is just that no one's written the right poem yet.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 All the problems in the world result from my failure to communicate. That's that's

Speaker 2 oh my god. I really do believe that.

Speaker 2 I really do believe that.

Speaker 3 It's some version of the AA personality that's like, I am the piece of shit around which the world revolves.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Narcissism and neuroticism completely hand in hand at the same time.

Speaker 2 You know what else I got from that poem?

Speaker 2 Thinking very, very carefully about those two lines you just said. I just thought to myself, huh,

Speaker 2 I think the word diss

Speaker 2 comes from having a disagreement with someone. You're dissing them.

Speaker 2 Do you think? Oh, I do. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's neither here.

Speaker 3 I mean, it also could come from like disempowering them or diss it, like a lot, I guess, a lot of things.

Speaker 2 But that might be right. Maybe.
Right?

Speaker 2 Just throwing it out there for people.

Speaker 3 I'm glad that that was the takeaway.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 Before we stop, this is what we need to do real quick.

Speaker 3 Briefly, I think each of us needs to say,

Speaker 3 you know, all the rage of reparenting our inner child.

Speaker 3 What is it about

Speaker 3 our child self that we want to honor and bring into the world? And which parts do we feel like show up in a way that we could

Speaker 2 upgrade?

Speaker 3 right like

Speaker 3 in service of that child now that we have an adult consciousness yep what parts of our inner child do we want to let lead and which parts do we want to say oh honey that maybe not that

Speaker 1 I think I'll just go first but okay I think that we all know for me

Speaker 1 we don't well we do we've talked about it the whole time and during my part that joy I'm letting joy lead my life right now and play okay great.

Speaker 3 Amanda?

Speaker 2 I think that I would like to

Speaker 2 honor the part of me that

Speaker 2 wants to love and care for myself and the people I love with a lot of energy and resourcefulness and planning and care

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 love that part of me. And I would also

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 to encourage that part of me to

Speaker 2 drive less defensively to to

Speaker 2 allow life to unfold without

Speaker 2 feeling like it's reckless driving

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 allow

Speaker 2 I want to figure out

Speaker 2 My goal in life these days is to heal my nervous system so that I know what is actual danger and what is actually just life.

Speaker 1 Nice. That's good.
It's really good.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, I asked you guys the question. I don't exactly know what mine is, but I think maybe it has to do with having the goal of expression just be expression and not

Speaker 3 thinking that it's some

Speaker 3 like

Speaker 3 divine job to

Speaker 3 fix everything, or

Speaker 3 I think that say causes a mess in my life. So, um, something about that.
Um, okay, something about that.

Speaker 1 And um, we love you, pot squad, and thank you for hanging in there with us.

Speaker 2 Thank you for the question. That was such a fun thing.
That was so fun. Yes, and everybody, everybody get a little picture of themselves as a kid and keep it close.

Speaker 3 That is a hack, okay?

Speaker 3 Just do that, just do do that. Put it close to you and see how it changes things for you as you remember your little tender child self doing the best she could.
We love you, Pod Squad.

Speaker 3 See you next time.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human.

Speaker 3 And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.