Find Your Towanda with Tig Notaro & Stephanie Allynne (Best Of)

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welcome to we can do hard things this is a really exciting day because we have a double date happening today. So exciting.
And that double date is with Stephanie Allen and Tig Notaro. For real, that's happening.
Stephanie is a writer, actor, producer, and director. Her acting credits include The L Word, Generation Q, One Mississippi, Room 104, Dream Corps, LLC, Love, and Twin Peaks.
She also starred in the Sundance hits People, Places, Things, and Lake Bell's In A World. Lots happened because of that one.
Stephanie is currently set to write and direct the feature film Time and Space that will star Tig Notaro. Well, I wonder how she got that role.
She will produce alongside Notaro and Judd Apatow. Tig Notaro is an Emmy and Grammy and nominated standup comedian, writer, and actor.
Rolling Stone named her one of the 50 best standup comics of all time. Notaro appears in Army of the Dead and Star Trek Discovery.
And Star Trek Discovery, lots of different otherworldly things going on. Well, she is otherworldly.
Yeah, yes. Wrote and starred in the groundbreaking TV show One Mississippi and recently released her second HBO stand-up special, Tig Notaro, Drawn.
Co-directed with wife Stephanie, the feature film, Am I Okay? She hosts the advice podcast, Don't Ask Tig. I've been on that.
And co-hosts the documentary film podcast, Tig and Cheryl, True Story. And Tig and Stephanie live in LA with their sons, Max and Finn, and their cat, Fluff.
Hi! Hi.

We didn't know that our bios were going to be read.

Yeah, that's what you do at dates.

You've never done that at double dates?

Are we competing to link?

You have our bios, right?

Yeah, always.

So now you go.

We travel with your bios.

Our nighttime reading.

I want to make an adjustment.

Okay.

We have three cats.

We'll see you next time. So now you go.
We travel with your bias. Our nighttime reading.
I want to make an adjustment. Okay.
We have three cats. We have, and the two that you left out are actually in Stephanie's office with us.
Right now. And luckily they didn't hear it because we have our headphones on.
Okay. And their names are? Skip and Linus.
Okay. And are they also producers and directors? Yes.
They work at Judd Apatow's production company. Okay.
That's how we met them. Got it.
Okay. They were assistants.
They were assistants. And we asked them if they wanted to live with two mothers.
Of course they do.

Which we interpreted it as yes.

Yes.

Could have been no.

Could have been hell no.

Stephanie and Tig speak cat.

It's good.

We do.

Well, we're so excited.

Really, really grateful for this double date together. We are so excited to be on.

Well, I met both of you through Don't Ask Tig,

but this is, do we pretend like that didn't happen? No, no, no. We do.
We talk about that. Yeah, that was a great hour together.
Did you do Don't Ask Tig too? She was setting up the. I was helping the tech check.
Oh, right, right, right, right, right. You don't remember anything that I do for you.
Well, I remember Tig. This is what long-term marriage is like.
Yeah, well, speaking of marriage. Or just long-term life, you know, the memory goes.
And I'm not saying you're elderly, but I have a lot of memory problems. Yeah, so do I.
I will tell you that sometimes I don't know exactly whether what you're saying is real or funny because before we jumped on, my sister was on and we were laughing so hard because two years ago, Tig and I were emailing back and forth about to plan this freaking double date. Okay.
Two years ago. I tried to schedule and then you emailed back and the email started with Jesus Christ, Glennie.
This double date attempt has turned into a real full-blown pandemic nightmare at this point. However, we are reading it.
Yes. I found it.
However, we are around for rescheduling. I must warn you though, I will be starring in a major motion zombie flick.
After that, it's highly likely I will become too big of a deal for these types of friendships. Okay.
I was like, I don't know if she's serious. I called my sister.
I was like, is she hilarious or mean? And I knew you were hilarious, but I didn't know if you were hilarious and also mean. So I crafted an email back to you that could have worked either way, whether you were joking or whether you really were mad at me.
And does this happen? Does this happen to you ever? Or are you constantly? Yeah. You know, it's terrible.
It's, and I apologize, but I don't, but I do. Well, it's because it happens not just through email.
It's also just her like like, delivery. There's no, like, change in inflection or facial movement.
So you're just, people are just kind of staring like, really? And then I'll be like, it's kidding. The other night we had dinner with a group of people.
I will not drop names, but you'd be impressed with who was there. Was it Taylor Dane? Yes.
And no, beforehand, there was an email chain of, hey, can everyone get tested, you know? And everyone was chiming in and I just wrote no. See? What are you supposed to do with that? I don't know.
I like of course she's kidding and then there's all this follow-up of like are you do you guys want to get tested is there a problem you're like oh my god no we're totally like see i walk away thinking of course they know i'm kidding why would i do that to somebody why would i not test why would I not have a double date? Why would I? Why? Why? This is similar to how we sort of got together officially. Right.
And it actually, this got me married to. This actually worked for, this humor works for me.
So this was actually almost 10 years ago at this point. So we had been in this movie together in a world and we were, you know, dating, hanging out.
Sorry. Hanging out.
And I was like, I'm straight, but oh my God, you're so funny. And, um, and then we are so funny.
And I'm so funny. Some people I'm funny.
And I'm some people think I'm funny. I really thought you were funny.
Look, I'm not for everyone. That's fine.
You can't be for everyone. That's right.
Yeah, that's right. OK, so at what we were hanging out and and at one point we kissed.
It was actually Valentine's Day. Let me get to the part where it's this humor.
And so we didn't kiss because it was Valentine's Day. We were hanging out.
We kissed. We have a great night.
And then I got home and I'm like, oh, my God, what have I done? Like, I'm straight. This is crazy.
I don't want to, like, mislead her on whatever. So I wake up in the morning and I write the longest email pages.
That's just like pages. I just think the world of you.
I love hanging out with you. I think you're so funny.
I had a great time last night. I don't regret anything.
It's like our bios. You're just the greatest.
I'm just so unfortunately straight. Otherwise this would be amazing.
Friend zone email. Yeah.
And I'm like, reread it. I'm like, okay, perfect.
Pages. Send it like seconds later, she replies and it says, okay, Dyke.
And I was like, oh no, I really like her. Oh, that's good that's really good that's really good well I didn't even know what to do because we have so much fun together and we kiss so naturally and I was I just thought what does all of this mean like I don't protest too much Stephanie well I know that Tig gets bored with the whole sexuality conversation.
I've heard you say that that's boring, but it's not boring to me because I'm brand new here. So I want to hear this story.
Where did I say that? That was probably a joke. Somewhere.
I read it. You just said you think it's boring.
I don't know if you're serious or not, Tig. No, you've said that.
No, I've just been dabbling for longer than you. Yep.
Abby the same way and so i'm just like yeah you know but i'm not discounting your need to talk about it or stephanie because stephanie she talked about it for right she could write you pages of pages pages well you know when people are like new to aa or new to crossfit or new to like veganism and they can't stop talking about it like this is new look i don't do crossfit but i am the i'll talk your face off about um plant-based food oh jesus so then i'm not even going to worry about this about boring you i got my plant-based nutrition certification during the pandemic i did yes Yes, I did. And you should have added that in my bio.
If you let me ask a question about sexuality, then I will listen to you talk about plants. Okay.
Okay. This is how friendship works.
It's a give and take. So Stephanie.
Yes. What the hell? So you're straight and you really believe you're straight your whole life.

Let me interrupt here.

Okay.

Okay.

She's a big dyke.

And then she can talk about her sexuality and answer this question.

But let's talk about the other side of things of how many boyfriends you had.

Okay.

Oh, this is interesting. Well, I had a lot of boyfriends that I was not in long-term relationships with.
Okay. Got it.
And you played basketball. Thank you, Abby.
And softball. You can't play those sports and not be slightly interested in women.
The two gayest. I did notice that part of the documentary, the basketball.
I did even notice that. Even my gaydar was on.
I have the worst gaydar on earth because I didn't even know him myself. I died laughing because I was like, Tig Notaro's going to watch her friend's basketball game.
And I'm like, I'm so straight. Move it.
Go team. Yeah, that was impressive.
Did you feel like you were, because I've heard or read you say that you didn't feel like you were hiding something from yourself. No.
I mean, truly did not know. And I, young teenager, early 20s, never had a feeling.
I was completely thought I was straight. And then I would date guys where I'm like, they're cool.
They're interesting. They're, you know, like it was kind of like anybody I thought was a little interesting to talk to.
I was like, I guess I like him. Yep.
And then, um, the and they would obviously want it to grow. And I'd be like, this is casual.
This has to stay. And then we'd have a date and I'd be like, I'm unavailable for a week.
So I'll see you next Thursday. And I wanted them out immediately in the morning.
I'm like, get out. They would want to have breakfast.
And I'm like, no, no, no intimacy. I would roll over and grab my phone and be like, pretend like it beeped and be like, oh, no, I have an audition.
Do you wish that you had figured it out early so that you could have been dating women that whole time? Yes. Yeah.
I look back

on that and I'm like, oh my God, what I was missing. Right.
And I know, but you got it now because I kind of Glennon's like, I wish that I knew earlier. And I'm like, oh, I know that bothers you when I say that.
Well, cause I'm like, well, you can't go back in time. Number one, number two, like that just means you'd be sleeping with so many more women.
I'm not into that. Okay, well, this is good that we're working this out in real time.

So were you, Tig, worried that she would, because Abby's friends all told her, do not get serious with this woman. She's just going to like pretend she's gay for a minute and then she's going to go back to men.
Well, you were also married with three children. That's true.
I was also married with three children. Slightly different.
Which was another little monkey wrench. See, Stephanie was single with a roommate.
And it felt more, I didn't really hear that. No.
But I imagine people might have thought that. I've dated so many people that are interesting or beautiful, smart, funny, all these things.

And I talk about the inflection where I would say, oh, yeah, it's good. You know, things are good.
Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how it goes.
You know, she's cool. And my voice would be up there.
And then when I met Stephanie, I noticed I was talking from this really honest place that was right here where I would say, I like her so much. She is the greatest.
Oh, my gosh. She's so funny.
and I noticed I was not talking from that place I I was always like, we'll see, you know, or this is, yeah. And then I went, oh my gosh.
And I think, what's that? That's good. It's what? It's really cool.
Oh, you didn't even need that extra comment from me. I'm sorry.
I should have kept that. Go ahead.
What I heard was it's toodle. And so I thought, well, let me just check in and see what toodle means.
But anyway, so when I noticed I was speaking from that place, I imagine I was talking to everybody from that place about her. And I just, I don't know.
Maybe that's what it is. That's what I'm kind of chalking it up to is maybe my friends were like, oh, this is not a situation where TIGS, you know.
What did you have? Just people being, but you're not gay. Just a vibe of like, it's going to run its course.
And it wasn't being received in a way of like, oh, you're in love. Nobody was discouraging.
It was, I could just sense that sort of a vibe. But you also had that vibe of people going, wow, I've never heard you talk about somebody.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
And at the same time that. You said, I think I realized I was actually gay a few years ago after we were married and after we had kids.
Yeah. Which means what were you doing for those two years? What were you thinking about or pursuing? I really feel that way, though.
And I kind of blows my mind because when we got together, we were so in love and just have always been in love. That was the thing.
It's like I'm in love with Tig and Tig's a woman. But it's and I think I went more in the direction of, oh, my God, like labels are so dumb and you can fall in love with anyone.
It took time and sort of my own allowing myself to process of like, oh, I actually don't, I'm not attracted to men. And I don't think I could ever be in love with a man.
And oh, that means I actually am gay. And I missed this whole part of myself, which blows my mind.
And then I had to go, so what am I attracted to? What is my sexuality? And what is my sexuality completely separate from tick? You know, and that when you're married with kids to go through that, I felt like it was very hard because I, nothing to do with our relationship. It's like, of course, this is still strong.
And of course, I'm still in love, but I need to figure this piece out because I want to know it about myself. I want to understand it.
Yeah. And it's a scary place.
It's tricky because you're already married. And so it's done.
I mean, I remember in an early interview, I said on the record, the words, Abby is my sexuality. That's written down.
Yeah. I was having this conversation with a friend and she was like, so were you gay before? What the hell, Glennon? Because she's known me forever.
And I said, well, I don't know. I mean, there's always been some things.

But well, you know, I've always thought that, you know, guys' bodies were kind of gross

and women's bodies were beautiful.

But like, everybody thinks that.

Right.

And she was like, no, Glennon.

Everyone doesn't think that.

Like, what?

I know.

People like men's bodies?

Like, do you want that? I don't even think men's bodies are gross. Neither does Abby.
Me neither. I do.
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I know we joke about sexuality, Tig and Abby's sexuality, but the truth is, is I think it's really awesome, Tig, that you can hold the space for Stephanie to be able to do that. Not many partners are confident enough in the love, in the marriage, to be able to do that.
We can't talk like that. We don't talk like that.
This is the first time we've talked like that. I mean, that's not 100% true.
A little bit. Listen, you sat down at a table one day and you said, we are not standing up from this table until we figure out what I am.
Because people kept asking me. All right, let's figure it out.
I mean, I know we're married, so. It's hard to figure out after you're married.
It really is. I mean, Stephanie said, and then I closed the door early and so I never ever got to discover what was behind it.
Yeah, I am human. And, uh, and it's not, it's not just easy street knowing that there's any sort of,

um,

um,

regret or something.

Gosh,

I hope it's not regret.

I don't even know.

It's,

it's more terrifying.

I think if people are holding these secrets or thoughts,

uh,

that's when things get,

um,

Thank you. I think if people are holding these secrets or thoughts, that's when things get rough.

Yeah. And as rough as the conversations are or exploration or thoughts,

I think that's easier to get through than being confined with those private thoughts or concerns.

And I assumed that if we were together, that no matter if it was a woman, a man, a tree, a non-binary person, trans, whoever it was that Stephanie, or even myself, that anybody could potentially think, oh, is that person attractive? Or how do I feel about this? I know that Stephanie is a human being. And and so it's, it's complex, but I also know so deeply that we love each other so, so much and we enjoy each other and we, we have so much together.
We also have a lot of problems and issues.

Hey, but but because we're alive and we're together, but I want to have those problems and issues with Stephanie. And I think what was fascinating about kind of that discovery at the time in which it was, was like, it almost was harder because we were so in love and because I was so in love.

It's like, well, I don't want to do anything that would weaken that intensity of that love by me exploring or thinking about the side of myself. Yeah.
And what ended up happening when we worked through that was just how much our love got stronger and being able to kind of go, oh, this is how I feel. This is who I am.
Now you know that. Now we've talked about it.
It changed so much. And I think in a weird way, not knowing I was gay, I had sort of heteronormative ways that just were the way I saw things.
And then in this relationship, even though I'm now in a gay relationship, I was still going about things in a heteronormative way. Like what? Give me an example.
Cause same, same. I was like, I need to know, I want to be like all gay and everything, but I also need to know who's getting the fucking bugs because it's not going to be me.
And I'm not carrying the trash out. I need some heteronormativity in my lesbian relationship.
Yeah. That is hilarious.
And just sort of that feeling of like, I think a power dynamic or who defers to who or how does something, Oh, what does that mean if you do this and I do that? Yeah, I for sure had a big growth spurt in this relationship because we have a 15 year difference between us. And when we got together.
Well, I don't mean to sound like a mathematician, but we were much much younger um and uh you know even though I'd been in relationships I was essentially single in the way that I wasn't married and the way I handled money or my house or whatever it was my time I was calling the shots And then when Stephanie and I got together um I feel silly saying again she was much younger but um we met when I was 25 yeah wow and so time went on and she was like listen I'm older I'm I have my career now I have my money I have

all these things and this is and I know this people will probably hear this hear this and say

well of course you're separate people and of course fine I fine. I'm telling you, I'm, I was for sure calling the shots of like the house and where the money was going to be spent.
And, and I had to look at myself and go, right, we're married. We're together.
This is our house. This is our money.
I was like, oh, she's all set up. She's got all her stuff going on.
It wasn't like I was this like passive person. I was just sort of like, oh, yeah, buy whatever you want, get whatever you want.
And we're in love. It was natural.
It was I didn't even think about it. And then later in this sort of discovery, it was like, what does that mean if you do that? And that feels weird for me.
And now I'm not, I don't like myself in this sort of discovery, it was like, what does that mean if you do that?

And that feels weird for me.

And now I'm not, I don't like myself in this.

And I'm so uncomfortable because it goes against everything I actually believe in.

And then I'm like, and by the way, I don't think I've told you everything I believe in.

Let me introduce my new self to you.

And it's all different. And that's when it became to wanda yes yeah i really like i you're gonna have to be with a brand new person but that's also exciting because i'm a brand new person and we continue to each become brand new people.
And that's great. But there was a huge Tawanda moment.
And by the way, I am mid Tawanda myself. I just told my therapist that the other day because I was like, I think I'm starting to Tawanda.
How? I must know. How is Tawanda manifesting? Can somebody explain Tawanda to me? Oh, babe.
Well, it's very gay. I'm surprised you don't know.
But on Fried Green Tomatoes, when Kathy, did you see that? Of course. I never saw it.
We'll watch it this afternoon. I'm sorry.
You never saw it. Well, Kathy Bates, how would you describe Tawanda? She's in a very terrible marriage and she's like sick of it.
And she's, you know, she's getting inspiration. By the way, you weren't in a terrible marriage.
You said Tawanda. I know, but I was joking because you were like, um, you have to watch the movie.
Basically her claiming herself and she's just kind of like, fuck it. I'm like, you know, yeah'm going to do whatever I want.
It's like her inner goddamn cheetah comes out. She slams the car into this jackass.
He's just parked drunk. Tawanda! She just like, she releases her.
She shows up for her life and she's pissed off. I'm Tawanda-ing right now.
I'm realizing. Well, I mean, I don't know if I need to go into all of the Tawanda-ing.

I think you do. Just what's happening? On a very serious note, I've had a lot of unsettling things happen in the past few years, and I've lost a lot of grounding people.
well I mean it's it's unearthing to have my spouse go Tawanda-ing. And then as I had this guy that cut my hair for 16 years in my house pass away two days before the pandemic,

and then the pandemic is unsettling. My manager forever got out of the business, and my stepfather

I'm not sure. the pandemic and then the pandemic is unsettling.
My manager of forever got out of the business and I've,

I,

my stepfather passed away on the anniversary of my mother.

10 years later, I've just felt a little like what's happening and what the,

the ground underneath me is a little unsteady.

And so it's made me look around like, what's your role? What do you do? Do you make sense in my life? I need to feel secure right now. I really need to feel secure.
And in that, I felt like when something doesn't feel right, I am.

And I'm very confrontational in if I need something or want something. I'm very forward.
But it's... Tawandying.
It's Tawandying, where I'm like, this does not work for me. I, in a way that I have not been before, as much as I do the jokes of like, no, I won't test or, um, you know, whatever I, that email I sent you, which I don't even remember sending.
Um, but, uh, it sounds like me or the okay dyke moment. I have this other side of me where I do think I am a nice person and I am, I want things to be okay and nice with people.
And, but right now I'm going through a place of, yeah, of Tawanding. And how do people react to your Tawanding? Because I always feel that the after moment is what's, it's not even the Tawanding that's hard.
That feels good. Then it's waiting for other people's reaction to your Tawanding that makes you be like, oh, never mind.
No worries. No, I've just gotten very seriously firm about things.
Or I've raised my voice in a way that I don't normally. Like agent of like 15 years ran into Stephanie at a party.
And he was like, I have not. He was on a call with me where I was just very firm about something.
And and and he was like, I've never heard TIG like that before. And I'm like, yeah, I overheard that.
I'm like me either. Wow.
So how do you feel about Tawanda TIG? I love it. I feel like we're both in a place of like, oh, this is what we value.
This is what we like. I mean, not necessarily, I don't think we go about it the same way, but just that where you're going, this is really how I feel.
This is really how I see it. And I don't think we go about it the same way, but just where you're going, this is really how I feel.

This is really how I see it. And I don't want my life to not be that.
And so if I keep nodding along or keeping it in or just going, I guess that's how it goes, then your life is that. That's right.
That's right. I think we're at an inflection point too and the way that um women work women in business I have spent my whole fucking life just being like yes sure I'll do that so grateful for the opportunity thank you so much and it's like you know it's half of what I probably could be earning.
And recently, I mean, it took this one because she's just stronger than me in terms of holding her boundary, her line for what she believes she's worth. Yeah, of course.
I mean, look at her. She towers over me.
We think it's because I lived my whole life as a straight, white, Christian, middle class. Like I was like the most entitled of the entitled my whole life.
I just got to a marginalized group. So when people mistreat me, I'm like, what the fuck? Like, I'm like, we call me queeren because it's like.
The queer Karen. But really, like she.

Oh, my God.

But it's been interesting because she felt bad about it for a while because she was like, why are you always the one that speaks up?

Right.

But it's because she was in these situations for her whole life when the risk was much higher.

So that Tawanda, I think, comes because I was more used to being entitled. Yeah, I think a lot of us are in a Tawanda-ing right now.
It's good. I am so, so deeply in it.
I love it. And there is the aftermath of, and I don't know if this is exactly what you're talking about, but there is the aftermath of people being stunned at our production company our creative executive who used to be our assistant years ago he's worked with us forever now but I was talking to him about it and uh and he said you don't have to apologize or he said those are real emotions and feelings and although I know that it was it was nice to hear it because I just the circus I'm I'm finished with I'm very finished and it is nice when men and women are both like yeah that's cool and you know what I actually liked that because I do think it's that thing with women where you, if a woman, you tell a woman to

do something and she just says, no.

It's like, wow, she's difficult.

Whoa.

She's crazy.

What a bitch.

And you see a guy go, no, I'm not doing that.

And they're like, he's so smart.

Oh my God.

He's so strong.

Knows what he wants.

I love that guy.

And like, I feel like I've noticed with women now, even like other actors, I'm like, I love that you're just like, no. It's the best.
It's so freeing when somebody else does it. Yeah.
You're like, oh, I can do that. Yeah.
It's an invitation to all the other marginalized groups. But there's also plenty of people that are on ego trips and power trips that do it that are not what I'm talking about.
And I'm not talking about the power ego tripping people that do this. That's a whole different thing.
I'm talking about just really, really getting in tune with what you want. I am so obsessed with the things that I don't want to.
That's meaning I love learning. I don't want this.
I don't want this in my life. I don't want this.
And I love that when it rears its head as much as I find something like Stephanie,

where I'm like, I want this. This is what I will work and live for.
And this is that side of it.

And then there's this where I'm like, oh, am I thrilled that I know that I don't want that?

I do not want that.

That's right.

And it all feeds into Tawanda.

What's an example for each of you of something you've discovered that is, I don't want that? Well, I know mine is totally linked to that. I like coming into my sexuality because a friend of mine who is married to a man, um, who identifies as queer.
And I'm like, so what does that mean? Queer? Cause queer. I never quite, I'm like, am I queer? Can I say I'm like, are we all queer? And she was like, queer is just other.
So queer is anything other than the heteronormative patriarchal paradigm. And so if she's like, I want to be other in my writing.
I want to be other in my parenting. I want to be other in my relationship.
I, whatever it is, I don't want that. I want other.
And I feel like I'm like, ah, that's what I want. I don't want the way this goes.
I don't want the like, we're falling into roles. We're playing this out.
I want to know in every moment what I'm actually feeling, what I actually think. And then that is my reality.
Yes. Queer is like, give you a menu and instead of choosing, you just return the menu.
I'll have everything. Yeah, you're just like, I defer choice.
I think about that all the time in terms of faith, all of it, like queer faith, queer gender, queer art, queer relationships, all of it.

So good.

Yeah.

What about you, Tig?

What do you not want? Not this. There's so many things, creative things.
and people in the creative world that I have had too much patience for. And there's a lot of creative stuff that I've been open to because I do think it's important to try new things out.
But there's so much creative that I've learned that's not for me. And I don't want to spend my time doing that.
And just, there are people that I am okay with. I'm not looking for a battle with them, but they're not for me.
And, um, and I'm okay with cutting that loose and being friendly, perfectly friendly when I see them. But they're not for me.
And I'm not interested in the world that surrounds them. And I'm good with that.
And I also, I just want to be comfortable. I want to be safe and comfortable and healthy.
I feel that I feel all of that queer, comfortable, safe. Glennon, what don't you want? Well, I mean, I think I have found, you know, we go to some, we'll go to like a get together with people and they're all talking about like climbing this hamster wheel more, more, more.
I don't want to have a life where I'm constantly thinking that happiness or success is like one great project or deal or connection away. I'm obsessed right now with figuring out like what is enough and not, and just stopping.
There's this frantic climb to nowhere. And I never- Well, you're climbing to hell.
It's not to nowhere. You're absolutely climbing to hell because people are so blinded by fame, fortune, power.
When it gets into the right hands, you have incredible people. And then when that gets into the wrong hands, it is astounding, the monsters.
Yes. And I'm always like, people will say, does it frustrate you when you hear that she or they or whoever is getting it? And I'm like, no, keep feeding that monster.
Yes. Let him have it all.
Let him have it all. It would be one thing if you could see anything that looked like joy or peace or happiness on that side, because I am always looking for that, you know.
Like a particular table we were at recently, and everybody was just talking about what's next and what's bigger and who's doing what. I said, well, how do you know when you've done it? How do you know when you've done the thing? Yeah.
And then also, are you happy? And it was like, it was like, well, we're not talking about that. Yeah.
You know, I don't know. And it's sort of like that feeling too.
I mean in the arts or entertainment you're doing the thing you love like you're the person that has got to do the thing they love and so isn't that amazing and isn't it amazing that we're all here doing this really fun thing with each other trying to get everybody on that page is so challenging.

It's so challenging. And it's, and look, I love, we both, I'll speak for myself.
I love working. I love what I do.
I love it. But I am not looking to just fill my calendar.
Stephanie and I have a production company and we do things together. And that excites me so much.
Writing, creating, producing, acting. We do all of those things together and have over the years.
And we have so much. Everybody is like, oh God, what was that like working with your wife? It was incredible.
It was incredible. It was so fun.
And we're both so sad when we go to a set and the other one is not there. And we're looking for more people like us.
Yeah. We love working together.
We love it. And we love working on our projects.
And so that they're labors of love. And again, I've done plenty of things outside of what we create together.
But Stephanie makes fun of me because when you know how on on projects or sets, people are like, I'm not here to make friends. And I'm like, I'm only here to make friends.
That is the only thing I'm here to do. I might not, you might not be, you know,

I might pick up something weird about you, but, um, I'm not necessarily going to be friends, best friends with everyone, but I am here to have a good time. I want to be laughing, um, on set and enjoying myself.
That's so, so crucial to me is to enjoy what I'm doing and feel like there's a positive message to the project or there's good people involved in it. Of course, it's hit or miss out there, but that's what I'm going in for.
That's really, really what I'm interested in.

I heard Marianne Williamson say that I think about almost daily is she was

like, it's great when you go about life in a way that's like,

it's a really big fucking deal.

And then at the same time, big fucking deal.

And both are at the same time.

So it's like,

you can't be that forceful to the top and you want the money and you want that. And then it's, you know, and if you don't get it, you're miserable.
It kind of all has to exist at the same time. Yeah.
I always, yeah, I always say nothing matters and it's devastating, but also nothing matters, but nothing matters. Nothing matters? Nothing matters? But nothing matters, Glennon.
But nothing matters. But nothing matters.
So do it. Take the risk.
But just remember, nothing matters. But if the risk works out, just remember.
Yeah. Nothing matters.
Yeah. Actually, that's quite free quite freeing.
Yeah. That's going to be the title of this double date.
Nothing matters. This doesn't matter.
It's not going to be Tawande. No, it's for sure going to be Tawande.
And wait, Abby, what would you want? Thanks, Stephanie. Sorry.
So the question question is what do i not want i choose to live a life without chaos and um that's good it's difficult with three children truly because a lot of that can feel chaotic in moments but i don't chaos. I was a seeker of chaos for many years of my life and peace is kind of what I'm after.
So if I were to say what I don't want, it would be chaos. And there's a few things that I have to do every single day to achieve, like to, to have a knowing of that groundingness.
Like it's like working out, it's drinking coffee in the morning.

It's, you know, making sure I'm staying connected with my wife, like those kind of three elements.

Like seriously, coffee is that important to me?

It rises to that top.

Do you have a mug that says don't even talk to me until I've had my coffee?

It's implied.

There is just no communication

for the first 20 minutes of wakeness.

No, that's right.

We don't talk to each other.

No, we'll talk to the dogs.

How old are your babies now?

You have two little boys, right?

Twins, six-year-olds.

They're six already.

Yeah, they just turned six.

What is that like?

And what's the best thing?

And what's the worst thing? And how has it changed things? Do you dress them the same? No. They dress themselves and they look like maybe they don't have parents.
Yeah, sure. They're very into their clothes.
Yeah. Well, you wouldn't know it.
Nothing matters. Nothing matters.
I feel like I become become a cliche annoying parent when i talk about them because they have their little moments but they're so great so great yeah they're so great. So great.
Yeah. They're so great.
And, and anytime we find ourselves getting caught up in, you know, oh, this one always forgets to do this, or this one gets frustrated with this, or that this is their little struggle with their dynamic. They are not difficult children.
And they're so loving and protective of each other. We cannot reprimand one without the other one getting so upset with us.
That is my brother. That is my brother.
Don't say that. Don't say that.
Even when they're the ones that was mad. Yeah.
You come in and then they turn, they both just turn, turn on you. And you're just like, okay, you guys got to figure this out yourselves then, which is pretty much what they do for the most part.
It's that thing where you just look at them and you're like, oh, my God, how are you this little person in the world? And look at your little watch and your shorts. And it's just like your body.
You put pants on them every day. Yes.
That was our big dream. I was just like, oh, gosh, I just want to put little pants on someone.
And you know, it's like I know your guys' kids are so much older, but at this age, and they haven't started kindergarten yet. They're about to start.
But just their pure joy and the way they run toward their friends at school and they hug each other and they go, I love you. And they're like, I love you.
And just he's my friend and she's my, and it's like, I look at that and I go, I feel that way about people and the world, but I would be crazy, you know, like that, just being able to express yourself and everybody just go, yeah, this is great. Yeah.
If you do that your whole life, you don't have to Tawanda. Yeah.
Right. Totally.
Exactly. But I have to say, Tawanda-ing is kind of, it's kind of fun.
Yeah. It's really, it's really freeing to Tawanda.
Kathy Bates was standing in front of me at the airport, like maybe five people in front of me. And I considered telling her I was mid to Wanda.
But then I just thought, oh, she hears that all the time. And I can't be another person that does the.
And she's like, actually, I've never heard that. Kathy, I'm Tawanda-ing.
Oh, I hope she calls in and tells us. What do you guys fight about? Yeah.
Because it feels like you guys, I mean, do you have arguments? Yeah, that's what I was saying before. I was like, we've got plenty of issues and problems, and a lot of them we've worked through, and a lot of them continue to rear their head.
Yeah. But we have like our ones we've really figured out.
And then we have the ones that we really do every time. Yeah.
What are the ones you do every time? We've got like three in the bank that we just keep coming back to. I call them like old files where it's like, should we pull out that old file? And we know what's in there, but should we pull out the old file? A friend of mine that I grew up with, we also have old files where I'm like old jokes or stories.
And we've been friends since we were children. And we moved out here to Los Angeles together.
And we have stories that we've told each other a million times because we grew up together and we had those stories together and we lived it together. And one of us will bring out the old file and start telling a story.
And then the other one will say, wait, do you know this? And the other one will say, absolutely, but please tell it again and then and we won't stop each other and we'll be okay well and so and we know the story by heart and it's the same thing with our issues and that's what's so weird don't interrupt me stephanie oh that's our issue um let's get that file um it's weird where we're at now kind of once you acknowledge like oh we don't fight well around this one like this one is going to end like the other night was such a weird one because we were going toward one of our fights and it's not even like one of our fights it's just like this is going to turn into our fight this is it's just something triggers here we go and I'm like and I said it was like okay I don't want to do this right now because I'm going to get really mad. And then I'm not going to be able to get off of it.
And then you're going to say this, and it's just going to end in a wall. I don't feel like doing it right now.
And it was like, you're like, I don't even recognize you right now. I don't even know.
I said, so you just, you're just not even going to head over there. You're just going to stop.
I'm so mad. I, of course that I'm mad about that.
Of course I'm so mad about that. So I don't know what to say.
Yeah. That's so good.
We should really try that. Cause it feels like you're on a roller coaster.
It's like, yeah, but there's nothing you can do. You're there for the whole damn there for the whole damn ride you've triggered it and it's like you got on one time we uh one time we were having an argument early in our probably in our first year oh yeah in our relationship and uh and we still use this technique um to get out of uh an argument 70 Stephanie, we were both upset.
And I think she was maybe locked into maybe yelling at me or something. This? She was like, something was coming at me verbally.
And then mid-argument, I just wandered off to the window and just put my hands against the glass. And I started singing an impromptu musical.
And I was like, there was a time. And I just started singing about all the good times we used to have and before things went awry.
And Stephanie started laughing so hard. And so now we'll sing musicals to each other when things get really tense.
And it pulls us out of those moments. And what we're working on now is following up after.
That's good. After.
After. After.
Because. You're like, well, I'm still'm still no resolution that issue is still there

yeah the resolution wasn't there we can pull each other out another thing that stephanie does that will pull me out is when she's driving me insane which has only happened once of course but um I'll be so frustrated that I can't see.

And then she'll start pointing to her wedding ring like, you got me for life. I'm yours.
Here's the one you picked. I'm the one you picked.
And then that makes me laugh so hard. And we also joke about when we're in an argument, we'll talk about how, well, I'm legally bound to you.
I signed a contract. And so I guess we've got to work this out because we are contractually bound to this situation.
OK, this is brilliant, though, because we've only focused on the things to get us out of it. Yeah.
But we haven't focused on the then coming back. Because if you only focus on it, your whole life would have to turn into a musical if you never talk about the thing.
Oh, I have to tell you one more thing that gets us out of an argument. Actually, we haven't done this in a while.
It's so funny. There was a meme or something that you sent me um where a guy was driving a car and then his dog was in the passenger seat and had its paw on the um on his arm on his arm and they're both facing forward no they're not looking at each other right and uh i think i've told you that it gets me out of situations where if somebody will just touch me in an argument, I can talk better if she just reaches out and touches me.
And so she sent me that meme of the guy driving and his dog just having its paw. and so sometimes when we've had arguments Stephanie will kind of mimic the dog

and put her paw

on my head driving and his dog just having its paw and so sometimes when we've had arguments stephanie will kind of mimic the dog and put her paw or like so mad where she's so mad and then she'll put her paw on me and then and then it makes me laugh or it's it like makes you back to reality it brings me back to reality yeah i think that would help for you i do too because it's not about the thing. It's about panic.
It's about like abandonment. It's connection.
And that touch, when Stephanie will reach out and touch me, I'm like, okay, we're together. And it is that thing of like, it's so not what you're talking about.
It's like, this is bothering me because I have all these things. We've done couples therapy in the past.
And I think there's certain things where you have to kind of give it over to someone else because you're gonna, you're in your thing. I think a breaking point for us, and I actually love this moment so much, was we were in like a really big fight.
and um and we both like at a point we're like okay we got to get done with this fight and we both

we both like at a point we're like okay we got to get done with this fight and we we both were like well I'm not sorry and she's like I'm not sorry either wow cool and we both were like okay yeah we're different we see this completely differently and I cannot do that one. And she's like,

I cannot do that one.

And so I felt like that was really a great moment because at least nobody's

going toward their thing and being like,

okay,

you're sorry.

So interesting to me because I abandoning yourself.

I'm always looking for you to be sorry.

Yes,

you are.

And then I have to lie.

Yeah.

She's never sorry. I'm like, do you actually feel sorry? I say i'm sorry and she'll go do you feel sorry and i'm like well we're lying anyway do you want me to actually tell you that i feel sorry no i don't right it's like this is my opinion very deeply i i thought you were going to talk about how i remember one time after an argument and look we're not arguing all the time but one percent of the time.
Yeah, this is a one percent of our one of the times that we argued. I came back in the room.
I thought you were going to talk about this. And I said, oh, we just got in big trouble.
And and that's how it felt. It felt like, wow, we we misbehave there.
You know, we just, it felt like a parent would have been like, whoa, you two. Yeah.
And so we do reference that still where after we'll have an argument, we'll be like, we just got in big trouble and that'll break tension too. And I feel our couples therapist told us this, which I loved so much.
It is in the way of like, okay, if you're not going to say you're sorry, but go up to the person and go, how can I help? And just how simple that is. It's like, clearly you're not okay.
And so as a person, how can I help you? What can I do to make you feel okay? And what can I do to make you feel okay? I love it. I feel like we've been talking for four minutes.
I know. I feel like we didn't get through any of- We have 18 more questions.
We have so much more that we want to talk about. We love you too.
We love you guys. I'm just so grateful to have met you, and I would love to meet your little boys sometime.
Well, that's not possible, but thank you. See? Jesus Christ, Glennon.
Jesus Christ, Glennon. You walked right into it.
And I don't care who's giving you a signal. We're not finished.
But I do want to take a moment to acknowledge how thankful we are for what you both do for the world and the greater good. And I feel so strongly about putting your time and money and power and influence into your beliefs.
And I think that you both do that beyond measure. And I am so, so thankful for that.
Well, just real quick, you know, you have to go, but how do you figure out what you're going to care about? I mean, I'm just going to say this to the pod squad.

Jake and Stephanie just gave a shit ton of money. I don't know if I'm allowed to say it, but I know you weren't saying it because of that.
No, no, no. No, I absolutely am.
I want people to know. No, no, no.
No, that's not why I'm saying it'm truly I remember Stephanie talking to me about what you do, both of you and how activated you are.

And that drew me. I was so blown away.
And I fully believe that if you have a problem with something, don't complain about it. Do something, donate money, lift a finger and, and, and help people.
And how do we know? I mean, it's funny to talk earlier about, um, nothing matters. Um, but of course I think everything matters and I care about everything.
And I think that, um, there's just different ways that you can activate yourself. Um, whether it's showing up in person for people or, um, giving your money, uh, in ways and towards things that you can't physically get to? I don't know.
Do you make a decision what you care about? I mean, yeah, we have to because there's so many heartbreaking things constantly going on in the world. So you do kind of have to figure out what's breaking the world's heart and, and go towards certain things.
You gave all the proceeds to the New York City Beacon Theater event to the suffering in Ukraine through Together Rising. So how do you two figure out with all, I mean, because people are asking us this all the time, like with all the heartbreaking things in the world, it's just easy to shut down and do nothing because you can't do it all.
So how do you decide? You know, what's interesting about you guys and Together Rising is like when everything was happening at that time, it had just started in Ukraine. It's like, there's a trust in you guys of like, they're feeling what we're feeling.
So they're going to put the money in the place that goes toward what we're all feeling. And it's not going to be because it's coming from a place of like feeling.
And, and when you can connect to that, then you go, Oh, okay. Then I have trust in together rising because I know the people behind it are just trying to figure it Yeah.
And that's where the trust intention is so crucial.

And I think that we trust the intention behind your organization. I think all the time, let's say you both despise me or you don't like my comedy or you took all of my joking seriously.
I don't care. I'm still going to give you my money.
You know, I do not care what you think about me because if I think you have good intentions and you are going to be doing something incredible and powerful with that money. Great.
Great. We just love you guys so much for it.
I mean, we, we were floored and it's not often that people step up like the way that you do and the way thing why Together Rising works so well is that it's usually just very minimal donations. I think, what's the average? $31, $35? $31.
That's what's so cool about it. I think we're at $40 million.
It's incredible. Because that's what matters.
All these people that have a little bit. Right.
And we tend to think that change is for people who have a lot, and that's not actually ever been true in the history of the world. Right.
You all are magic. Thank you so much for being here in the world for everything.
But seriously, let's meet in person. I know it would be so great.
We want to meet your guys' kids. Love to the boys.
Love to the three cats. Same to you.
And just good luck with everything. We just, we.
We love who you are in the world. And to all the rest of you people listening, we will see you next time on We Can Do Hard Things.
Yes. Bye.
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