Reese Witherspoon on Friendship: What, Like It’s Hard? (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Hello, everyone.

Speaker 1 I'm Abby. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.
And we have a real treat for you today because we are talking to our dear friend and truly the friend of women everywhere, Correct.

Speaker 2 Reese Witherspoon.

Speaker 2 Reese Witherspoon is an award-winning actress, entrepreneur, producer, and New York Times best-selling author.

Speaker 2 She won an Academy Award for her portrayal of June Carter Cash in Walk the Line, which is one of my all-time favorite movies,

Speaker 2 and later nominated in that same category for, you may have heard it, Wild.

Speaker 2 In 2014, which she also produced, Witherspoon also starred in beloved film Sweet Home, Alabama. I love that swing.
I know Legally Blonde. Oh, get out of here with that.

Speaker 2 And Election, Me,

Speaker 2 as well as award-winning television series, Big Little Lies.

Speaker 3 Oh, jeez. Little Fires Everywhere.

Speaker 2 And the morning show,

Speaker 2 which turned gay,

Speaker 2 best moment of our life. Abby and I celebrated that moment on the couch like it was ours, like we wrote it.
Yes, yes. And it was my first moment of Gaydar.

Speaker 2 Remember, I saw it coming before you. You did, actually.
Okay. In 2016, she established Hello Sunshine, a media brand that has changed the world

Speaker 2 for sure. Big time.
And content company dedicated to female authorship and storytelling across all platforms. I'm going to calm down.

Speaker 2 Hello Sunshine is also home to Reese's Book Club and Reese's YA book club, which focuses on storytelling with women at the center. Yes.

Speaker 2 Hello Sunshine is now the cornerstone of a larger media company called Candle Media. Reese,

Speaker 2 Are you tired? Very. She's got to be very tired.

Speaker 2 I am. I am tired.

Speaker 3 I'm a little tired, but I love my job so much. I wake up every day and I just get excited to talk about, I mean, are you kidding me? I could just tell stories for a living.

Speaker 3 And it's just a dream.

Speaker 3 But thank you for that lovely intro. I'm just.

Speaker 3 You know, sometimes you're just like working and you forget that you've done other things.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, oh, that's so nice. I know.

Speaker 1 And it's like, not that you've just done things, you've done incredible things.

Speaker 1 Like all of the things that we just talked about are like our favorite movies and our favorite experiences that we share with each other.

Speaker 2 It's just incredible to us. Yeah.
And after doing all of those fantastic movies, it would have been

Speaker 2 certainly okay for you to be like,

Speaker 2 I've done what I'm going to do for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Hollywood. Bye.

Speaker 2 But then you changed the the whole landscape for everybody. And we're going to get into that.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 before all of that,

Speaker 2 before you exploded the planet with your existence, you were born in March of 1976. You and I were born two days apart.
Wow.

Speaker 2 I know we're both Aries. You may have seen it.

Speaker 1 That is really something.

Speaker 2 We both got pregnant in our early 20s and got married. We both had more babies, then got divorced.
And now we are both remarried with blended families and careers. So

Speaker 2 I want to start with this question. What do you see as the difference between 23-year-old Reese and 46-year-old Reese?

Speaker 3 Oh, gosh. Well, even when you just said that, it kind of brought tears to my eyes thinking about when I was 22 and finding out I was pregnant.

Speaker 3 And I remember reading Love Warrior and just feeling like, oh, my God, I had all those feelings. I was so scared.
I was so scared.

Speaker 3 And like, not knowing what to do and not knowing what it was going to do to my career. And I had people in my ear going,

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 3 I don't know what you're doing. And

Speaker 3 just, you know, having to make a decision or making choices when you're that young and you don't know who you are yet, you know,

Speaker 3 I think back about it a lot. I think back about how I got through having a newborn when I was 23 years old and my friends were partying and going to clubs.

Speaker 3 And I was taking her to preschool and putting her in the car seat and pushing her around the grocery store and just talking to her.

Speaker 3 Like, I talked to her all day, and I read to her all day, and I sang to her all day. And she was my little best friend.

Speaker 3 But it was lonely. It was really hard and lonely.
I was living in LA. I didn't have any girlfriends.
I don't have a sister. My mom had a full-time job as a nurse.

Speaker 3 She couldn't leave her job in Nashville. And so I was just looking, searching for community.

Speaker 3 And I found it through this group of women at a like a mommy and me yoga class.

Speaker 3 And I clung to these women. I just clung to them.
These women put their arms around me. They called me every week to see how I was doing.
They called me late at night to see if the baby was sleeping.

Speaker 3 And I have to say, like, I think I've always felt great comfort in female friendship and female partnership because I couldn't, I couldn't do it without the amazing women in my life

Speaker 1 amazing um babe what's the difference between your 23 year old self and your 46 year old self I think

Speaker 2 that I believed in

Speaker 2 structure and institutions more than I do now I was scared shit list to Reese and I was like I have to get married

Speaker 2 Yeah, I have to get married. I have to find a church.
I have to find, like, I have to do like the structures to keep me safe.

Speaker 2 Even though looking back, I remember my ex-husband saying, I don't think we should get married.

Speaker 2 And I was like, prank caller, prank caller.

Speaker 2 We're just going to barrel through. So anyway, I think a 46-year-old believes in myself more than institutions.
And my 23-year-old self was different. Cool.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 those women. in that yoga class that you clung to, what a great word, by the way, clung.
because we're not supposed to be needy, but we are all needy as shit. Yeah.
Right.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 needy. We're all so needy.
We're oozing with need.

Speaker 3 My cup runneth over with need.

Speaker 2 I'm like a black hole of need. Yes.
It just keeps

Speaker 2 sucking in.

Speaker 3 And mainly of like female friendship. I just need it so badly.

Speaker 2 Yeah. When we asked you if you would do this podcast, you said yes right away.
I said, what do you want to talk about?

Speaker 2 And you said, actually, my husband and I were just talking last night about how I want to talk more about female friendship.

Speaker 2 So tell us why that is so important

Speaker 2 for you to talk about more in the world.

Speaker 3 I was talking to him about,

Speaker 3 first of all, it's so cute. We talk about y'all all the time, my husband, my son, and I, because we are obsessed with soccer.
They watch soccer all day long. So mainly we talk about Abby.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I feel you.

Speaker 1 Same.

Speaker 2 And then they're like, Mom, who's Glennon?

Speaker 2 Abby's wife.

Speaker 3 But, oh my gosh, we were talking about Abby's stats in the car to my son and how important it was that that decision

Speaker 3 to equally distribute the money of the U.S.

Speaker 3 soccer team between the men and the women's teams and why does it matter? And so then we looked up your stats and your stats were like insane and so cool.

Speaker 3 So I just told him, I was like, oh, I'm going to talk to Abby. And he was like, what are you guys going to talk about? You know, our feelings.
He was like, why would you want to talk about that?

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 That's what we do here.

Speaker 3 First of all, I say to my husband a lot, I thank God that Glennon Doyle is in the world.

Speaker 3 I thank God that Cheryl Strait is in the world, that Liz Gilbert is in this world, and I'll include Ann Patchett and a whole other group of people who, when I don't know where to turn, I look at your writing and your books, and it just grounds me.

Speaker 3 It makes me feel like I'm not alone. And that

Speaker 3 everything that I've been pushing forwards towards, which is sometimes exhausting, you know, and it sounds like

Speaker 3 everybody you talk to. I was listening to your podcast with Bose,

Speaker 3 it's tiring to push a rock up a hill,

Speaker 3 you know, and have it roll back on you all the time.

Speaker 3 And then, but sometimes you get a gain, and then you're like, We got a gain, and then sometimes you get a loss, and you're like, Oh my God, am I going to push that rock again? Jesus, I can't.

Speaker 3 And I cry a lot.

Speaker 3 But I was telling my husband about something in Love Warrior that really resonated with me and it changed the way I am a friend.

Speaker 3 Which was you describe telling your story to different people and the different responses that they have. One is the fixer, one is the shover, one is the comparer.

Speaker 3 And it was the light bulb for me that I can't remember which one I used to be, but I was definitely one of those people who was like, not this too shall pass, but I was like, well, you know, I've got an incredible therapist or a coacher.

Speaker 2 I was going to say, if I had to pick one, because you're a helper, you want to help people, right?

Speaker 3 I do. And I just think, oh, gosh, if I could just help, then everything would be better.

Speaker 3 But it really spoke to me that part of that book that was about actively listening as a friend, sitting in quiet

Speaker 3 understanding, sitting next to someone or hearing them or really

Speaker 3 seeing them is so much more valuable. I just never saw anybody describe it that way.
And it was really a revelation to me.

Speaker 2 Well, it's exciting to me that I taught Reese something about friendship because what the pod squad needs to know is Reese is known as being a very good friend in the world.

Speaker 2 I don't want to say a friend expert. Like, I don't know if she'd teach a class about it.

Speaker 2 It's just that she, it feels to me like you have figured out how to maintain and show up over time and have friendship be a life-giving force in your life over time. Like you've nailed that.

Speaker 3 I hope so. Yeah.

Speaker 3 We should call one of my friends real quick.

Speaker 2 We did.

Speaker 2 We vetted you? No.

Speaker 2 No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

Speaker 3 They'd probably be like, you travel too much.

Speaker 2 I'll just say.

Speaker 2 So I want to ask you, Rhys, some questions about friendship because this is, I'm 40, 46 now.

Speaker 2 And I'm trying to figure out friendship right now. You know, I got sober, I became a mom.
I did that. I haven't explored or figured out the life-giving force of friendship yet.

Speaker 2 And I'm not beating myself up about it. It's just a new frontier for me.

Speaker 1 You also fell in love. And so that was like big for five years.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm slowly growing.

Speaker 1 But we know that that's not sustainable, that it can't just be us. Right.
Like, we actually need that life-giving force from others.

Speaker 2 That's right. Abby's like, dear God, spread the life.
We both are. Yes.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to ask you some questions, Rhys, and I just want you to pretend like I'm an alien who's just landed on the planet and you're trying to explain friendship because that is in fact what's happening right now.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 What is friendship, Rhys?

Speaker 3 Friendship is so much, but it's

Speaker 3 it's a deposit and a withdrawal system.

Speaker 3 I think about that a lot. You can't take a withdrawal if you haven't made a deposit.

Speaker 1 That's really good.

Speaker 3 And I think about that a lot because, you know, I think

Speaker 3 people in my position and y'all's position, it's like, there's a lot of people who want to withdraw.

Speaker 3 There is. And people who have bright light or energy or caregivers or are caretakers, they give, they give, they give, right?

Speaker 3 But you got to make sure someone's putting a deposit into your friendship.

Speaker 3 And then every once in a while, reevaluate.

Speaker 3 Is this more withdrawal than deposit? Like, where is the balance here?

Speaker 1 It's so good. I think that this is what we've figured out over the last many years:

Speaker 1 our search for more friendship. We want to feel like friends are helping us also learn more about and explore more about the world.
Right.

Speaker 1 And I think that we found a couple of friends here that are doing that. And it feels so wonderful now that we live in LA.
It feels so wonderful.

Speaker 2 Rhys, how do you identify a person that you want to be a friend?

Speaker 3 Oh, isn't that interesting? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because it's like romantic love is like different. It's like, oh, love filled with butterflies.
Something's happening. Yeah.
What's friendship butterflies?

Speaker 3 Gosh, I feel like it's a very similar thing. It is, right? I can look at a group of people and

Speaker 3 I just know the two or three people I'm supposed to get to know better.

Speaker 3 It doesn't mean that we're going to have this incredible connection, but I watched watch the way people interact with people their use of language i think is really important to me because i'm a words person looking at that are they here to withdraw or deposit or stay neutral oh this is a funny story y'all i um

Speaker 3 trained for this movie where i played a um

Speaker 3 nca championship softball player Don't laugh.

Speaker 1 Okay. Nobody's laughing.

Speaker 3 I had this really great coach and she was like a 12-time NCAA NCAA champion coach.

Speaker 3 And I thought, well, first of all, anybody who's had coaching at that level, just the positivity that they put in these young athletes is incredible.

Speaker 3 I thought, if I'd had that when I was 22, I wouldn't have to have read a hundred self-help books.

Speaker 3 I read a hundred self-help books when I was 20, 22, 23. And she said something really smart about friendship.
Her name is Coach Enquist, Sue Enquist. Do you know Coach Enquist?

Speaker 3 Yeah, she's amazing. And she said,

Speaker 3 Reese, you're going to meet three different kinds of people in life. A third of the people are going to lift you up.
They're going to believe in your dreams. They're going to encourage you.

Speaker 3 You're going to encourage them. And a third of the people are going to be totally neutral.
They're just neutral. And you don't care about them.
They don't care about you. No harm, no foul.

Speaker 3 And then the other third are going to try and drag you down

Speaker 3 actively, whether they know it consciously, unconsciously they are here to pull people down and and they're gonna try and pull you down and she was like avoid the bottom third yeah

Speaker 3 and i talk to this like my kids about it all the time about finding friendships that lift you up see you care about you care about your children care about your mom and your dad and your family um

Speaker 3 you know try and bring and attract those kind of people in your life and avoid avoid those bottom third

Speaker 3 because they're coming for you, man. They're coming for your light and your energy.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yeah.
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Speaker 2 Okay, so when you find somebody who's in that top third and you get the friendship butterflies, what do you do to make the first move?

Speaker 3 I have to be brave. And for me, being brave is like just jumping.
Like I imagine myself as a little kid jumping two feet in a cold pool.

Speaker 3 And you know, once you get in there, it's not as cold as you thought it was.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 3 I also think about other people, like, it must be terrifying to have to stand alone in a room. Or

Speaker 2 I think, ah,

Speaker 3 I'm going to go say hi.

Speaker 2 Why not?

Speaker 3 What's the worst thing that could happen? Or be vulnerable. I will tell you when I had no friends in Los Angeles.
I moved right after college.

Speaker 3 I stopped out of Stanford because I got this job and I moved into this apartment. I didn't know anybody.
I was 19 years old. I had no friends.
And my mom came to visit me.

Speaker 3 I go, mom, I have no friends. And she's like, well, there's a girl across the hallway.

Speaker 3 I had to do it like Betty would have just been. There's a girl across the hallway.
And she looks like she's about your age.

Speaker 3 And I think you should just go over there and you should just ask her if she wants to have some coffee. And I was like, Really? Yeah.
So I knocked on her door. Oh, my God.
I was like, hi.

Speaker 3 And she goes, she goes, hi.

Speaker 3 I said, hi, I'm Rhys. I'm, I'm 19.
She goes, I'm 19 too. My name is Heather.
And I was like, I don't know anybody. I just stopped out of Stanford.
I'm here by myself.

Speaker 3 She goes, I just stopped out of Berkeley.

Speaker 3 I was like, oh, I'm working. She's like, I'm working too.

Speaker 2 I was like, do you want to get coffee?

Speaker 3 She's my best friend to this day.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 She's my very best friend on planet Earth.

Speaker 2 I saw you do this recently. I saw her do it.
We were at, we were in a little thing together, and the woman who was running the workshop said, pair up, find a partner.

Speaker 2 Like people who say that, I just want to stick a fork in their eyeball. I just stood there for a second and Rhys walked over to the person who was sitting by themselves and just grabbed her and said,

Speaker 2 I want to be a partner. Just, I was like, yeah, of course she did.
Okay. So you, you pretend like you're just jumping in the freezing cold pool to get through that initial resistance.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 2 How do you

Speaker 2 half of my life is just like jumping into a freezing cold pool?

Speaker 3 I think about all the things that you have to do to just get to there and then get to there and get to there. It's like,

Speaker 3 oh, I've done much scarier things than introduce myself.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's good. That's good.
That's good. Okay.
How do you know that someone doesn't just want to be friends with you because you're famous?

Speaker 2 I don't. You don't.

Speaker 2 That's so cool to say, Reese, because

Speaker 1 that's a very non-codependent thing to say. That's like a, it's not my problem sort of thing.
That's so good.

Speaker 3 Wow. I hope I figure it out quickly.

Speaker 3 But like, I do have a really good group of girlfriends around who will say to me, hey, he just wants to be your friend because he's trying to, I don't know, write an article.

Speaker 3 It becomes pretty apparent pretty quickly. Again, withdrawals, no deposits.
Okay, that's

Speaker 2 that's how.

Speaker 3 Okay, that's good. And also, y'all, don't you feel like you have such limited time?

Speaker 3 Friendship is like this very important thing, but you got to have friends who, first of all, be able to put them on your speed dial. They'd show up if your kid was sick.

Speaker 3 And then you have to be able to hang up the phone immediately and they don't get their feelings hurt.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 I got to go, click.

Speaker 1 Literally, when you call them three days later, you just start talking about whatever you were talking about when you hung up the phone right yeah we had a friend that that that they said you know if we are literally driving to your house for dinner and you need to call and cancel we won't ask questions we'll turn our car around and go home so that's the kind of friendship that and i was like well this is wonderful because you just

Speaker 1 he's just giving glennon a cancellation out every time

Speaker 2 Rhys, every time I make a plan with someone, and I'm getting better because I'm working on friendship, but I just feel like it's this game game of chicken of who's going to cancel first.

Speaker 2 And I'm trying to wait it out so the other person will cancel. So I get the moral high ground of not canceling, but I still don't have to go.
It's that sweet spot, you know.

Speaker 3 Maybe you just need friends to like who like to come to your house.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for sure. We do.
And that's what they do. That's what they do.
Okay. So what is needed to maintain a friendship, Reese? Because

Speaker 2 I used to think you just find someone you love and you're like, you're my person.

Speaker 2 and that's it. And then you just don't ever talk again.

Speaker 2 What is

Speaker 2 your friendship maintenance plan? What's required?

Speaker 3 Oh, gosh. I think my friends are going to be like, what is she going to say?

Speaker 3 Random check-ins.

Speaker 3 Like, not just your birthday. Like, random check-ins.
Like, you're on my mind. What's going on? How are you, girl? Like, that's my favorite kind of friend.
That's good.

Speaker 3 And we don't have to see each other. We don't have to like FaceTime.
Literally, just a text. I like a voice memo, too.

Speaker 3 I think making a lot of deposits, I keep saying this over and over again. It's really on my brain a lot.
I think I'm in an evaluation place because

Speaker 3 I, during the pandemic, I moved, I think everybody reevaluated everything during the pandemic, right?

Speaker 3 You re-evaluated your job, you re-evaluated your friendships, you re-evaluated your relationship, your relationship with your children. I got two dogs.

Speaker 2 We got one extra. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So much behavior changed in such a short amount of time.

Speaker 3 If you think about it, like I moved and I've really been, I have to be honest, like, I've been kind of looking for friends in this new place I live. And

Speaker 3 it's hard. It's really hard.
Adult friendship is hard. So I just try and tell myself to be patient.
And then, of course, my husband goes out and he has like a hundred people to hang out with.

Speaker 3 He has like a standing Wednesday coffee and a Thursday night guys night. And I'm like, how did you do that?

Speaker 2 How did he do that?

Speaker 3 We should get him here. He's the best friend ever.

Speaker 1 Does it mean that like

Speaker 1 I just wonder if the barometer for friendship and like the requirement for friendship for men might be just slightly lower?

Speaker 2 Lower.

Speaker 1 Actually, we're just gonna like get together and watch a sports game or whatever.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Interesting. Not to belittle men here who are who are listening, but I actually think looking for something that's like a magic match.
More meaningful and more deep. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Or fun.

Speaker 2 We're all like and just we get out of the house for a minute.

Speaker 3 I just want to have some fun.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 And then I'm going to run back to my house.

Speaker 2 Have you ever had to end a friendship? Because this is Reese. I feel like one of the things that's scary about friendship is like, for marriage, I know how to get divorced.

Speaker 2 Don't say that. There's a pattern.
There's a structure for breakup, but there's no structure for breakup for friendship.

Speaker 2 And sometimes friendships do need to end if they become unhealthy or they're all withdrawn, no deposit. Have you ever had to break up with a friend and how did you do it?

Speaker 3 Well, I've had to break up with friends and I, in full candor, I've handled it really poorly and I think I've handled it really well. So it's usually probably my age.

Speaker 3 I got, I was terrible at it when I was in my 20s, even my 30s.

Speaker 3 I kind of drift away because I'm busy. You know, I'm busy a lot, right? But that's not fair.

Speaker 2 You know, I think it's not fair.

Speaker 3 It's important to be clear with people. And I haven't always been clear with people.

Speaker 3 But as I've gotten older, I try harder to be very, very clear and succinct and

Speaker 3 without putting any sort of spin or shame on it.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I think I have to have boundaries, I guess. You have to have boundaries, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And like in your 20s, you're like, whatever, I don't have any boundaries. In your 30s, you're like, ooh, I'm learning what boundaries are.

Speaker 1 And then like in your 40s, you start, I think, actually establishing, especially with friendship, because we don't have any time,

Speaker 1 you know, like you've got kids, you've got your jobs. When I want to get with my friends, I, that is a slice of like special time.

Speaker 2 And the clarity is a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 Just the not drifting and being clear with people is a gift you can give them because it causes discomfort on your part in the moment, but less pain probably on the other part in the long run. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because the slow fade is torturous.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's not cool. And I have to be honest, I don't feel good about some of the friendships that I, you know, in my 20s, I drifted away from because I didn't know how to have the conversation.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I just didn't know how to do it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I want to switch gears.

Speaker 1 I think that you and I, and Glennon too, but I think that in the sports world and in Hollywood, there's the old boys club and you've experienced it and you've somehow not only survived it, but you've been able to thrive.

Speaker 1 How did you experience the Old Boys Club, first of all, in Hollywood?

Speaker 2 Yeah, what's it like?

Speaker 2 Good times.

Speaker 3 Well, I started when I was 14. So

Speaker 3 I just felt so lucky to get a shot. You know, when you have a dream and then you get a chance, you'll do anything.
Like I would do anything to have that shot at a movie.

Speaker 3 I would stay up all night, whatever they said, work all night, you know, don't sleep, or come in the next day three hours later.

Speaker 3 And I would do anything because it was my dream to be an actor and a storyteller. To that end, I think I endured some stuff that really wasn't appropriate.
I know wasn't appropriate.

Speaker 3 And as a kid, I didn't fully understand because the grown-ups in charge told me it was okay.

Speaker 3 Now that I'm older and I look back on it,

Speaker 3 I thank God, I was part of a system that had no rules. And still, a lot of entertainment industry doesn't have a lot of rules.
There's some really loose

Speaker 3 stuff going on, you know? And

Speaker 3 I think what I did with that and those memories, because they kind of came up for me around 2017, like really strongly

Speaker 3 around all the cases that came out. And I don't even want to say these people's names because they don't deserve us to say their names.

Speaker 3 But, you know, who abused women in my industry? And I got so charged by it. And I think

Speaker 3 I'd already started Hello Sunshine. So it was somewhere underneath.
I was already like,

Speaker 3 I have to leave this business a better place than the way I found it. Because I don't want the next young Rhys to have to go through what I went through.

Speaker 3 I want her to feel safe. Just because she wants to be an actress doesn't mean she deserves to be treated poorly, talked down to, sublimated, paid less,

Speaker 3 and told that she doesn't matter and to shut up, shut up and be quiet was a lot of what we were told.

Speaker 3 During 2017, when Time's Up started, I actually started sitting in circles with women who had done what I frequently, we're the only woman on set, especially for a lot of us who came up in the 90s.

Speaker 3 I was the only girl on set a lot of the time. And a little girl too.
I'd have a caregiver or whatever, but,

Speaker 3 you know, rehearsals and things would happen. And I got to sit with other women, had similar experiences.
And it was such a healing moment for me to know that, like,

Speaker 3 all of them had felt that way. All of them had been treated that way.

Speaker 3 And collectively, we weren't going to do it anymore.

Speaker 3 We were going to stand up for people and we were going to lock arms with each other. And we were going to protect women in our industry and other industries.

Speaker 3 And that was a really meaningful time for me,

Speaker 3 2017 when we

Speaker 3 all went to the Golden Gloves and we're black.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Because we know that the majority of the money that's made off of the red carpet photos is off of the women and their dresses and their clothes. It was a sign of solidarity.

Speaker 3 It was a sign of understanding. And it was also just this sign that we were all talking to each other.

Speaker 2 That's right. The siloing is over.

Speaker 3 There's nowhere to hide anymore.

Speaker 3 And I've had girls call me and say, I need to talk to you about something that happened over here on this side. I need need you to call this person, that person.

Speaker 3 And we do it. And I want to say, I do want to say something.
There were incredible male allies.

Speaker 3 They didn't come forward. They didn't make it about them.
They didn't put a badge on themselves. They just did really, really impactful things behind the scenes.
And I will be forever grateful.

Speaker 2 That's so good to hear. Yeah.
And what you just said, Rhys, at the beginning of

Speaker 1 this answer for me actually changed my life.

Speaker 1 And I have to just point it out is I've carried a lot of shame with me in terms of my alignment at times with the Good Old Boys Club, because that was part of survival in the late 90s, early 2000s.

Speaker 1 And I've carried some shame with me. And you said, it was your dream and you would do anything.
to follow your dream and achieve your dream. And that is what I was doing.

Speaker 1 And I've been holding myself with this kind of shame around me, feeling like oh i was misaligned so i just want to thank you for that that was really healing for me that's the ugliness of it it's they it's they know that these people have dreams and they leverage it yep right well also someone's bad behavior doesn't get to steal your dream right One bad system doesn't get to stop you from becoming Abby Wombach.

Speaker 3 Yes. You don't get to stop me.
You don't get to make the rules of my life. That's right.

Speaker 3 And if I have to quietly work inside a system that does not make room for me to be a leader, like there was room for me to be a white blonde lady in a movie, but was there room for me to be a leader?

Speaker 3 I wouldn't say when I started, no.

Speaker 3 And then to step into a little more power, a little more,

Speaker 3 I have trouble with the word power, but a little more responsibility, a little more leadership, the ability to control my own material, to give thoughtful filmmakers and female writers an opportunity to tell their story in their own words.

Speaker 3 You can't take that from me. Just because your system doesn't allow it,

Speaker 3 I'll make it happen. I mean, I feel lucky that in this lifetime, I honestly, I can't believe it happens.
Sometimes I pinch myself, like I make someone cry. Like when we

Speaker 3 sold Hill Sunshine, I just sobbed, y'all. I just sobbed and sobbed because it wasn't about the money.
It wasn't, I didn't, I didn't need that, right? For me, it was like women matter.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 And women's stories matter.

Speaker 3 And that's my life mission, right? It's not about me and I need an award or a thing. I mean, they're all very nice.
I really appreciate them.

Speaker 3 But what my life work is, when my life purpose lined up with my work and suddenly I was doing this work that changed other women's lives.

Speaker 3 And I got calls that were like, I could afford a house for the first time in my life.

Speaker 3 And my kid's going to college. I have economic stability because you picked my booklet book.

Speaker 3 That's the stuff, y'all, where I pinch myself and I think, I am so lucky on this earth to be able to take what I was given and then just move it over there, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, luck is one thing.
You're also a business mogul. Like you're just like such a badass and you are a leader.
in not just Hollywood, but the business world. It's amazing.

Speaker 3 Well, thank you, honey.

Speaker 2 I've seen people's lives actually.

Speaker 2 Like I've gotten texts from people with pictures of their home their keys to their home that they got because of your book club like i've actually seen that in real life happen

Speaker 2 every

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Speaker 2 For the Pod Squatters, like it's such a different thing to be an actor, which is an incredible thing, but you're still, someone else is producing it, someone else is controlling the story, someone else is doing the whole thing,

Speaker 2 and then to say, no, no, no, I want to be part of the creation of that.

Speaker 2 Like, how, Rhys, how does, because we have the way that that boys club works when it's overt abuse and then the unsiloing of women, which I think is so cool.

Speaker 2 It's just like your mommy and me yoga class. It's like you were alone, and then friendship.
I'm starting to understand why friendship has been so important to you.

Speaker 2 How does it manifest when now you're at the table? Because

Speaker 2 that's different

Speaker 2 when you are trying to be now one of the power players. Because I actually love the word power.
I think when people like you get power, it's a very good thing.

Speaker 2 How does it manifest in your life now?

Speaker 3 That's such a good question. I sit sometimes in those board meetings, those tables,

Speaker 3 and I watch the way people behave. I think in my 20s, I would have tried to emulate their behavior, but now I

Speaker 3 bring myself to it. And I think there's a reason I'm there.

Speaker 3 I was uniquely chosen to be there at this moment in time. And that my perspective as a woman, as a mom, as a consumer of media matters.

Speaker 3 The way I watch my teenagers and what they're interested in versus what a boardroom full of people think is important.

Speaker 3 Women just inherently have this

Speaker 3 incredible knowledge base, right? But we are not, we're not empowered to use it in the right way. We're certainly not chosen to be on boards and to run companies.

Speaker 3 And if we are, the glare of the spotlight is so harsh and so

Speaker 3 difficult for female CEOs and women in the C-suite. It's tough.
But I think I'm going to show up with my whole self and hopefully create value for everybody here, but also

Speaker 3 create space for more women to sit in these seats, you know?

Speaker 2 And do it as you.

Speaker 3 But it's not what I thought I'd be doing. I never thought I'd be doing this.
I didn't grow up in the corporate world.

Speaker 2 I don't,

Speaker 2 I'm an actor. I learned lines,

Speaker 3 but I've been in a business for 30 years and I've watched what works. I know what stories work.
I can read a book and I can tell you, that's a good movie. That's not going to be a movie.

Speaker 3 And I can tell you exactly which studios will buy it and who's not interested. And I can say, okay, that's going to be a TV show, that's a movie, but that's a podcast.

Speaker 3 I just know from copious amounts of reading and understanding and analyzing the business.

Speaker 3 I don't think I felt empowered until I met my husband and he said, and I was so frustrated about women not having better parts and better scripts.

Speaker 3 And he's like, babe, you read more than anybody I know. Literally, you tear through books.
Why don't you just buy some of them and start developing them? And I was like,

Speaker 3 I guess I can. And I said, should I do it with a studio? He's like, no, self-fund yourself.
Like, he just gave me incredible amounts of support, but also business acumen.

Speaker 3 Half the time I say stuff that he says, I'm sure everybody's annoyed by that.

Speaker 2 I do that too, yeah.

Speaker 3 But I can see it between y'all too. I mean, even when I, Abby, the Wolf Pack speech, I was like, oh, stuff in there feels like Glenn End, but then that's so Abby.
And I love that speech.

Speaker 3 The metaphors in it are so beautiful. And I think great partnership is about what you pull from each other,

Speaker 3 what you love about your person.

Speaker 3 What they see in you, you don't see in yourself. And I'm telling you, he is my number one fan.
He's like, you go get him, babe.

Speaker 2 That is, and excuse people, when you talk about, I didn't know I would be doing this, but I'm thinking about your mom

Speaker 2 and when you were little, and you had anxiety when you were little. Yeah.
And I read somewhere that your mom, your mom's a nurse,

Speaker 2 she

Speaker 2 back then, I know because we were going through mental health stuff at the same time, probably as teenagers, that mental health was so stigmatized back then.

Speaker 2 But your mom said, no, no, no, we don't ignore this. We go at things.

Speaker 2 We go at things.

Speaker 2 So that's in your blood, going at things, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Would you say that? What are you going at right now?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 the whole freaking world. She's going at that.

Speaker 3 No, I haven't really told anybody that, but I made a pact with myself not to film anything for nine months.

Speaker 3 And that's really hard for me. And I know that sounds like, oh, nine months, like, that's really hard for me.
I have a very busy brain. I like to have that sense of accomplishment.

Speaker 3 I like to be on set. My girlfriend goes, I really like it when you're not doing acting and filming.

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 2 but I love it.

Speaker 3 She was like, no, I know you like to do what you do. But it has been a challenge for me.
But I like, it was a challenge where I wanted to get quiet. And you can't.

Speaker 3 find your next steps forward when you're racing around and making yourself busy and not giving yourself space to think about

Speaker 3 who am I? What do I want next? What does the next chapter of my life look like?

Speaker 3 It's huge, you know? I feel like I have time and space to do it. And a lot of times when I feel uncomfortable, I just go to work.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 And I gotta not do that. I gotta not do that.

Speaker 1 Right. When I was transitioning from soccer to this life,

Speaker 1 a friend said, think of it like going and watching a trapeze person. They're swinging from rung to rung.
And where you are right now is you're kind of just holding on to each rung.

Speaker 1 Cause I was really struggling to let go of my past and I was really scared to step into a future, an unknown. She said, You're just holding on to each rung.
She said, But why do people

Speaker 1 go and watch trapeze artists do their thing? She said, It's to see what happens in the middle because that's where the magic is.

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, shit. shit.
So

Speaker 1 I let go of both rungs and I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 And then I was like, hi, I'm Glennon. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But didn't you put your arms up in the air?

Speaker 2 Yes, I did, Grace. I did.
I did lose my shit.

Speaker 3 I love your dorky self. It makes me so happy because I'm just such a huge dork.
When I love people, I just, it comes out of my face, out of my body, out of my arms.

Speaker 3 I just, I like explode with joy and love for people. And it's a lot.
It's a lot to deal with.

Speaker 2 Do you feel that? Do you feel that a lotness, like too muchness? Because I have,

Speaker 2 I have a theory that everybody either thinks they're not enough or too much. Nobody, I've never met a woman who's like, yes, I believe I am the correct amount.

Speaker 2 What the hell is that? I don't know. Yep.
I kind of exactly.

Speaker 3 I think I'm too much.

Speaker 2 Too much. You're too much.

Speaker 3 Too much for people.

Speaker 1 Well, I have been. I think that I'm the right amount.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. Of course, you're the one.

Speaker 1 I feel like, I feel like I've come into a sense of maturity. When I was playing soccer, I was too much.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 But now that I stopped interrupting people so much,

Speaker 1 I'm feeling like I'm better.

Speaker 2 Well, I want to be clear. I don't think women or any women are actually too much or not enough.
I just think that's the structure we're given.

Speaker 3 Exactly. Please say that again.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 No woman is too much or not enough.

Speaker 3 Why are we told that? Like, that was untamed for me was this unlocking of all of the

Speaker 3 constructs that don't hold water for me anymore. This idea of the perfect woman or the perfect

Speaker 3 yet showing up in society with everything that is weighing down on us, it's just crushing.

Speaker 3 You understand why women are burned out and tired and don't feel appreciated

Speaker 3 because we're always told we're not enough. I think we're always told we're not enough or sit down and shut up.

Speaker 2 That's right. That's right.
It's very convenient to decide that every woman is one or the other.

Speaker 3 But Abby, let me ask you this. You never get in a conversation with somebody.

Speaker 3 You have like a heated argument with somebody or a really passionate argument, and you never sleek away going, God, I wish I hadn't said all that.

Speaker 1 I don't have post-mortem

Speaker 1 like remorse about conversations.

Speaker 2 And what? It's all I have.

Speaker 1 We actually talk about this a lot.

Speaker 2 I'm already thinking right now about the things during this hour I wish I didn't say. Like, that's all I do.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But I think that part of this has to do with I have gotten male privilege because of the way I present through my life and because of sports.

Speaker 1 So I have a sense of male privilege that maybe you both, because the way you present and the way that you've been received in the world, it just might be slightly different.

Speaker 2 Um, so that's that's interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think that that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 you obviously played the iconic role of Elle Woods.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 because everyone, I mean, everybody knows Elle Woods, but because of Elle's beauty and popularity and femininity.

Speaker 1 From legally blonde, just to say that. Right.

Speaker 2 From legally blonde. She was constantly assumed to be not smart enough, not serious enough, not powerful enough to be at the table she earned her way to.
And I think this about this a lot because

Speaker 2 misogyny is one of the most powerful forces in our world and in our country for sure. And there's a special slice of misogyny that's reserved inside of people for women who are very feminine.

Speaker 2 So do you, Rhys Witherspoon, relate to Ellewood's plight?

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I think the reason,

Speaker 3 I think there's a million reasons why she resonates with people, right?

Speaker 3 Her drive, her ambition, her determination, you know, beyond what people thought of her. But I don't think there's a person on earth who hasn't felt underestimated.

Speaker 3 It was really really important to me as we were building that story that we have this scene with her mom and dad where

Speaker 3 her dad says, Honey, you can't go to law school. That's for boring people, boring, ugly people.

Speaker 3 And then her boyfriend dumps her and says, You can't, what are you doing here? You don't belong here.

Speaker 3 Everyone has felt that

Speaker 3 need to prove yourself, to value yourself. I still think about that movie and how it kind of stands alone in a genre.
Yes, it does.

Speaker 2 And it's odd.

Speaker 3 It's really odd, right? That there haven't been more films about a woman with ambition accomplishing something. Then I look at Tracy Flick, which is the other side of that, right?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 And she's reviled for being ambitious, right? One is perceived as stupid and one is perceived as a shrew or overly ambitious. But it's interesting.

Speaker 3 I mean, there's a whole spectrum of female behavior that we haven't seen on film, really,

Speaker 3 because women aren't telling the stories. I don't know.
I really, I love Elle Woods for what she brings to people. Can I tell you one funny story?

Speaker 3 So I got, so I was,

Speaker 3 I got divorced. I was

Speaker 3 about 31 or 32. I was in that weird state after my divorce where I was like floating, you know, like, who am I? Where am I?

Speaker 2 I know it.

Speaker 3 I had two little kids and I was like, oh, what am I I doing? And I got called for jury duty.

Speaker 3 God.

Speaker 2 And enough is enough. Enough is enough.

Speaker 3 I go to jury duty. I'm thinking, they're not going to pick me.
Like, why would they pick me? Goes to the first day and they ask me all these questions.

Speaker 3 And they're like, no, juror number 11, sit back down. You need to stay.

Speaker 2 I'm like, stay?

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And then I'm like, okay.

Speaker 3 And then I'm like on the phone crying to my girlfriend. And they're like, juror number 11, you've been selected for the jury.

Speaker 3 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 It was a five-day trial no i was there every day from eight o'clock to three o'clock no like a little break at lunch with all my fellow jurors

Speaker 3 and we went on the last day into deliberations to decide whether or not this woman was guilty of this crime

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 they said well we have to pick a foreman for the jury

Speaker 3 and literally all of them turned and pointed at me and said, you're going to be the foreman. And I said, me? Why am I going to be the foreman? They said, because you're a lawyer.
No.

Speaker 2 I knew this. I knew exactly where this is going.
No, Elle Woods is in the room. El Woods is at missing on the jury.
My God.

Speaker 3 But let me tell you something.

Speaker 2 It made me think,

Speaker 3 if you can call for jury duty, you better show up. Because if any one of us is on trial, you want nice, thoughtful people and those jury.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 people did not understand the law. And I only knew enough about the law for being L.
Woods that I was like, no, no, no. You don't get to say guilty or innocent.

Speaker 3 You have to say if the lawyer proved it or not. You don't get to say, because what if it goes, she looks guilty?

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 I was like, that's not how this works.

Speaker 2 Well, that's my favorite story of the entire year. That's amazing.
And also, Reese,

Speaker 2 it's so important to have stories on

Speaker 2 TV

Speaker 2 because those people in that jury saw you as a leader because they they had seen you as a leader on television. We don't even know.

Speaker 1 Even if they were wrong in some way.

Speaker 2 Just the images of women in power. They're like, L can do it.

Speaker 2 What? Like it's hard? Jury duty? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 3 Guys, I'm not even kidding how many letters I get from girls to say I went to law school because of you

Speaker 3 in other countries. I went to this thing in Washington, D.C., and it was 200 female judges from around the world.
And we were all speaking in front of them.

Speaker 3 It was so moving and emotional that i gave a speech and they were clapping so much and these girls came over and they were from china these 10 girls and they said we went to law school because of you and i was like

Speaker 3 that's amazing the power of media and film that's right that's why every time i get tired i think when say people say oh you're so busy you're so busy we're making up for thousands of loss that's right stories that's right years and years of our stories not being told

Speaker 3 so good when i look at my friend Ava DuVernay or Mindy Kaling or Tracy Ellis Ross or Carrie Washington, and we are working our tails off just to get these stories on film because we're making it for lost time and lost stories.

Speaker 3 And I think it's going to be amazing to see what the next generation feels inspired

Speaker 3 because there's been a lot of paths cut just in this past 10 years.

Speaker 2 And the way you tell the stories, because I think when I'm thinking about Al and her rise to power, one of most important parts of that story was her female friends in that story i mean like you and selma blair who were supposed to hate each other and then came together or you know i'm taking the dog like all the friendships

Speaker 2 we say that once a week somebody comes into the kitchen picks up honey and goes i'm taking the dog

Speaker 3 How much do we love Jennifer Cool?

Speaker 2 Oh, you did

Speaker 2 her.

Speaker 1 She's a family fave for sure.

Speaker 2 You've got these months where you're going to sit with your self. Yes.
It's so wise because if we don't get into quiet,

Speaker 2 we don't get into creative mode. We're just in reactive mode, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Uncomfortable. What are you going to do? We always have a next right thing.
So in these last couple minutes that we have together, what do you do during your downtime that is nourishing for you?

Speaker 2 Because I love your friend that said she doesn't love you acting because that means she loves you for you.

Speaker 3 Right? She doesn't. So sweet.
It's so sweet.

Speaker 2 So, like, what is nourishing and life-giving for Rhys,

Speaker 2 not like work, Rhys?

Speaker 1 And do you like like this time or you hate it? Like, what, what's going on in inside?

Speaker 3 Depends on the day. Sometimes I'm really bored.

Speaker 2 It's okay.

Speaker 3 I haven't been bored in a long time.

Speaker 3 But one thing that is just giving me pure joy and energy is I paint with my mom on Tuesday mornings. She has this little group of, they're 80, between 75 and 80 years old.
There's five of them.

Speaker 3 And we do watercolors. And for three hours, no one looks at their phone.
They literally just eat cookies, have coffee, and do watercolors.

Speaker 2 And it's a delight. Wow.

Speaker 2 I love that. I love your mom.
Just freaking love you and your mom.

Speaker 3 I mean, she's the love of my life. That's when I did wild.
It was like all about her mother being the love of her life. And

Speaker 3 my mother is just

Speaker 2 the greatest love oh god with that rhys witherspoon thank you for being even more you behind the scenes than you are in front of the scenes you're just

Speaker 2 you're just a love bug and thanks for being out there doing the hard things thanks for telling women's stories thanks for caring um go be with your family We just,

Speaker 2 we're grateful for you. I love you guys.

Speaker 3 Thank you for saying that. And I love you guys so much.
Honestly, every time I see you, I just

Speaker 3 have joy bursting out of my face. Just allow me to hug you.

Speaker 2 Same with that. I can tell you.

Speaker 3 Thank you. Thank you for making me feel brave and seeing.

Speaker 1 Thank you for paving a certain path that will last for hundreds, hundreds of years, forever.

Speaker 1 You are making women's life, not just in Hollywood, but women's life. in production, in business, in private equity.

Speaker 1 The deal that you were able to come to with Hello Sunshine is life-changing for women in every industry because they can see that it's possible.

Speaker 2 Precedent setting, yes.

Speaker 1 Reese, you are

Speaker 1 a friend, you are an inspiration. We love you, and thank you for being with us today.

Speaker 2 And the rest of you, don't forget this week when life gets hard.

Speaker 2 Reese says we can do hard things. Okay,

Speaker 2 we'll catch you back here soon. Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.