How to Have *Healthy* Conflict with Amanda Ripley (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. So here's what we're doing today.

Speaker 2 We jumped in to this conversation about conflict with Amanda Ripley, who is freaking amazing.

Speaker 2 And we got so excited to talk to her that we felt like we did this deep dive into the ocean of conflict and forgot to do any of the basics.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 2 we asked Amanda to come back

Speaker 2 to talk to us about like an introductory conversation to conflict because we felt like the conversation we had was so important that we needed to set a foundation first.

Speaker 2 So Amanda, thank you for coming back. Amanda Ripley is an investigative journalist and author.

Speaker 2 Her most recent book is High Conflict, which chronicles how people get trapped by conflicts of all kinds and how they get out.

Speaker 2 Her previous books included The Unthinkable and The Smartest Kids in the World, a New York Times bestseller, which was also turned into a documentary film. So Amanda, thank you for coming back.

Speaker 2 We wanted to start by asking you questions we should have asked you the first time. For example, what is conflict?

Speaker 4 Thank you for having me back. Yes.

Speaker 4 Delighted.

Speaker 2 I just want to know, this topic is so incredibly important, right? Because our entire lives, we're going through

Speaker 2 trying to connect with people.

Speaker 3 while also maintaining our individuality.

Speaker 2 And that seems to be like a push-pull inside of conflict. And because of that, conflict with other people is

Speaker 4 crucial. We have to have it, right?

Speaker 2 So talk to us about what is good kind of conflict and then what is,

Speaker 2 is it high conflict? Is that what, okay, what is high conflict?

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 So yeah, we need conflict. We probably need more of it than we have, which I know is shocking.
We just need a different kind of it. And conflict, like you said, is this push-pull, right?

Speaker 4 It's this friction, this tension. I like to think of it as resistance, kind of like if you go work out, like you need some resistance, or else what are you even doing, right?

Speaker 4 And that's how we get challenged. That's how we challenge each other.
That's how we get pushed is that resistance. But there's different ways to work out, right?

Speaker 4 You could work out and destroy your body in 20 minutes or less, maybe a minute. So you want to do it in a way that is actually helping you get stronger.

Speaker 4 And there's also internal conflict, I just want to add, right? It's not always between you and another

Speaker 4 person.

Speaker 4 This is something we're constantly trying to get journalists to remember is like internal conflict is really interesting. I mean, you all, you all know this.

Speaker 4 This is like stating the obvious to you, but internal conflict is also a big piece of the equation because that's where it all begins, right?

Speaker 4 So to answer your question, when I started working on high conflict, I was following people who were trapped in really ugly, dysfunctional conflicts of all kinds all around the world.

Speaker 4 And I was asking them, how did you get out?

Speaker 4 And it turned out that's the wrong question because

Speaker 4 we need conflict. Getting to zero conflict is not the goal, right?

Speaker 4 The question was, how did you get out of high conflict and into good conflict? So high conflict is a special kind of conflict that becomes conflict for conflict's sake. It escalates.

Speaker 4 It begins to distort our perception. It's usually an us versus them kind of deal, right?

Speaker 4 And we start to feel we are morally superior and also quite threatened by the other side, which sometimes we are, sometimes we aren't, but the feeling is very strong and consistent.

Speaker 4 And in that state, the research is really clear that we just make a ton of mistakes. I mean, we literally lose our peripheral vision and figuratively.
So we miss opportunities when they arise.

Speaker 4 And it's also really hard on your body and mind and your soul. You know, it's just that chronic stress of being in that state.
It's characterized by things like contempt,

Speaker 4 disgust,

Speaker 4 predictability.

Speaker 4 You know, exactly it's the same arguments over and over, right? And you're maybe having them in your head. And also a real sense of righteousness and superiority.

Speaker 4 So those are some of the characteristics of high conflict. And then good conflict is more about anger.
Anger is okay. Anger means you want me to be better, right?

Speaker 4 Contempt means you've given up on me. So good conflict is like anger, sadness, frustration, flashes of curiosity where you didn't expect them to arise, right?

Speaker 4 Flashes of surprise, a sense of movement that you can kind of feel like you don't know where this is going, but it is going somewhere as opposed to just being like stuck.

Speaker 6 Yes, yes. That flashed for me.
when you were saying that the biggest distinction between healthy conflict and high conflict is movement versus stagnation.

Speaker 6 That like in healthy conflict, you are going somewhere. There may be the anger and the yelling, but there's a movement and a pushing.

Speaker 6 The yelling is for a moving through it, as opposed to the point is the yelling and staying in this place of yelling at each other because we cannot move from this place. This is where we want to be.

Speaker 4 Exactly. Right.
There's a sense that you don't know what's on the other side, but there is something. Yeah.
And you're moving through it.

Speaker 4 And you might take two steps forward, one step back, but you're not just stuck on repeat.

Speaker 2 So when you say that, I'm thinking in terms of Abby and I understanding what you're saying through the lens of our relationship.

Speaker 2 If you're experiencing movement towards something, we have been in conflict where I have felt that.

Speaker 2 But that has only been recently after a lot of work where we've figured out to name sort of what a shared understanding of what the conflict is for, what we're going towards.

Speaker 2 That is not how we used to do it. And I'm wondering for you, if it's because when I get in a conflict with my partner,

Speaker 2 up until recently, I'm actually not working towards a goal.

Speaker 2 I am

Speaker 2 fighting for my life.

Speaker 2 Whether I know this or not, when we get into a conflict, there has not been in the past a mutual understanding that we have decided we are trying to work towards this thing to get to a better understanding of each other.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 5 that's always my goal.

Speaker 2 I know, all right? But I just got there.

Speaker 3 So you were moving.

Speaker 6 I had to show off.

Speaker 5 Oh, I'm so healthy.

Speaker 5 We're about to get into a conflict right now.

Speaker 2 But what I'm trying to say is I have great sympathy for the stagnation, the like no one's moving. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because Trauma response when you get into conflict with someone you love or anybody, anybody is, I have to fight for my life right now. I'm under attack.

Speaker 2 They think I'm crazy. So that in itself is a standing still.
It's a planting your feet in and you're trying like hell to stand still because you're trying to exist.

Speaker 6 It's self-defense versus we're moving towards somewhere.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 2 the sense of self and confidence and unfear you have to have to be like, oh, this isn't about me. No, but I'm not under attack.
This isn't about my character.

Speaker 2 We are working together to move towards a goal.

Speaker 2 Is that something people do to have good conflict? Like they state the intention of where they're going.

Speaker 4 I think that's essential. And it's really hard to get there because it's one thing to say, oh, this is what we're going to do.
This is our protocol going forward.

Speaker 4 But then, how,

Speaker 4 Glennon, do you do that so that you can? Because when we feel threatened, rightly or wrongly, it's impossible to feel curious. Like, you can't do both.
Yes.

Speaker 4 So, how do you get yourself

Speaker 4 from

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 fear mode into collaborative mode

Speaker 5 oh are you asking yeah i i think we should probably talk about our most recent conflict that was really helpful with the extraordinary wise

Speaker 4 pause that we took

Speaker 5 And I went upstairs, I made some tea and I came downstairs. And Glennon, when I came downstairs, the vibe in which it wasn't even necessarily like, hey, so we're going to work towards something here.

Speaker 5 It was just the vibe in which she presented her

Speaker 5 experience.

Speaker 5 And so what happened in my body, because so often in our prior conflicts, she's fighting for her life.

Speaker 5 And I am now energetically absorbing this fighting for her life, which almost in some ways forces me to counteract and respond in a way that I too am now also fighting for my life.

Speaker 5 And I try to remember and be like, oh, this is, we are doing this for something else. But because Glennon came with this new energy that was like, hey, I think that we need to

Speaker 5 be a little bit more direct in the way that we're talking to each other. I was trying to get her attention and teasing her.
more frequently in the last couple of weeks.

Speaker 5 And it was something that I was doing for X reason. And she was getting frustrated with me because it wasn't feeling good.
And I was missing, we were missing.

Speaker 2 She was trying to get at me. In moments of stress, I go internal and get quiet.

Speaker 2 And that scares her. So she starts coming at me in a lot of different ways.
She's trying to get me out, but it makes me shut down more.

Speaker 2 But I think that moment of conflict, it was the first time in my entire life, which we talked about after, that I didn't immediately think subconsciously. It's not something that I think of.

Speaker 2 You're my enemy, and I have to figure out how to win this, how to make myself seem like I'm right, how to make it clear that I'm not crazy here, that everything that I think is valid.

Speaker 2 And in order for me to make sure that you don't think that I'm crazy, I have to make you seem crazy.

Speaker 2 This is zero-sum game, right?

Speaker 2 And what scares me about

Speaker 2 conflict getting to a place where we can do it better as a world is that I cannot believe the amount of emotional intelligence, stability,

Speaker 2 regulation, non-shame. I think

Speaker 2 that not coming to an argument with shame

Speaker 2 deep underneath everything is the answer. And I haven't worked that out yet.
I just have less shame right now than I've ever had before.

Speaker 2 And when I enter a conflict with a base of an underlying belief that I'm not good, I'm not capable of maintaining myself.

Speaker 2 I will fight for my life. And there is no

Speaker 2 way we're making it anywhere from here.

Speaker 5 Each of us goes to our shame responses, right? Like Glennon is like, I'm crazy. And so that's where she's conflicting from.
And I go to, I'm not lovable.

Speaker 5 You're going to leave me. And so that's where I, and so interestingly, in our conflicts, that's super triggering for the other.

Speaker 2 But like now,

Speaker 2 we have done done so much work on ourselves, right? So it's like, I came to this argument yesterday without I am crazy, without

Speaker 4 I am bad.

Speaker 2 So I have to justify all my actions. She came to the argument without the belief that I was going to leave.

Speaker 2 And just that

Speaker 2 changed everything. We were able to be curious.
I felt like, oh, I remembered, oh, I love this person.

Speaker 2 That was new. He's not my enemy.

Speaker 5 That was new.

Speaker 2 I stayed soft. I've never stayed soft in my entire life in a conflict.

Speaker 5 That was new.

Speaker 4 Wow.

Speaker 2 And you stayed strong.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I got soft. You got strong.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Which was different. And so basically, this is a long way of saying, holy shit, it's so hard.
How do we expect people to do this?

Speaker 2 It takes an emotional giant.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Right. I know.
I mean, first of all, that's fucking awesome. So good on you.
You know what I mean? Like some people die. Most people die and never get there with their partner.

Speaker 4 So yes, it is really hard, but let's take a moment and be like, wow, what a cool thing.

Speaker 4 I mean, that must have felt like

Speaker 4 almost out of body, right? Glennon, to be like, I'm okay here. I can stand here.

Speaker 2 It felt like

Speaker 2 magic. It felt like magic.
Like, oh, I get it. Like, I.
do not have to fight for my life in conflict because i've got me wow there's a steadiness now that i can enter

Speaker 2 into situations with people

Speaker 2 and be soft because it's like that soft front, strong back thing.

Speaker 2 Like when you have a strong back,

Speaker 2 you can be so soft up front.

Speaker 5 And one of the things that I think

Speaker 5 is very clear with your work and with the way we've kind of processed through this is the absolute essential need to

Speaker 5 understand yourself and become aware of your own process inside of conflict and to take care of your own business, right?

Speaker 5 So, like, to regulate your own self, because I think when we get into these high conflict states, you're just talking about people or things that are just dysregulated, trying to regulate through this conflict.

Speaker 5 And we were trying to clean up our side of the street. Right.
And I think that that has been kind of transformative to enter into what we now understand to be good conflict.

Speaker 2 It's like we each have an inner tube now. And before we were just drowning, I was drowning and dragging anybody down with me.

Speaker 2 Like if you were with me, if I'm going down, I'm drowning, I'm going to take you down. And now we each have our own tools and we can like float next to each other.
So that's a great analogy.

Speaker 6 I feel like what you're talking about, which.

Speaker 6 is so fascinating because there's so much about healthy conflict and high conflict that is they're like crazy different beasts.

Speaker 6 Like high conflict is a system, it's a very specific thing that's happening there. But it feels like the common denominator in both of these is this.

Speaker 6 The absolute revelation I had when reading your book is the concept that

Speaker 6 you can both

Speaker 6 at the same time truly understand someone

Speaker 6 and vehemently disagree with them.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 That if you believe

Speaker 6 that I can hold on to my incredible disagreement with you, which means holding on to my values, my beliefs, my experience, my wants,

Speaker 6 I can have all of those and have them uncompromised by my understanding of where you're coming from. It doesn't mean I agree with you.
It means that you can hold both of those things together.

Speaker 6 That is true in relationship, Cause it's like, I just want to understand what you're talking about. I'm not changing my boundary.
I'm not changing what I need.

Speaker 4 It's like there's, yeah, there's like a third door, right? It's not this or that. It's not war or agreement or surrender, right? It's this third door.

Speaker 4 And to hold all that, like you said, Amanda, you got to be on solid ground, right? Like that's a lot to hold. And so I think that's what.

Speaker 4 Abby and Glennon, you're describing is that feeling of all of a sudden not being in quicksand. And I also just want to acknowledge that it sounded like, Abby, also you too

Speaker 4 were able to speak up for yourself, right? And not collapse into making Glennon feel better. Or is that what you meant?

Speaker 5 Yes. And I think that that's so important because what Glennon was doing prior is fighting for her life externally.
Right. I was fighting for my life internally.

Speaker 5 And so that was something that I was able to actually pull up as a part of me. And I even talked when we processed, of course, in beautiful lesbian fashion, we processed the fight after the fight.

Speaker 5 I was able to pull up a moment in my childhood

Speaker 6 where

Speaker 5 frustration and feeling like I had no control with my life or whatever came up for me and I would rage.

Speaker 5 And it was, I was able to kind of draw this line to this part of myself that was very young, that was very frustrated. And I was able to like look at that part.

Speaker 5 So, yes, all of that, what you're saying is true.

Speaker 5 And for me to be able to fight, not fight, but to do this conflict without losing myself or putting myself away, because I've been so conflict-avoidant.

Speaker 5 I didn't know that there was such a thing as good conflict until recently. Honestly, like the truth of that, like I really didn't know.

Speaker 5 And I think it's beautiful that we've been able to work on probably the hardest parts of ourselves.

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Speaker 2 What is good conflict? What does good conflict look like?

Speaker 2 And as a second question to discuss in that, do the principles that would apply to good conflict in a relationship, friendship, marriage, be the same as the principles, good people dealing with conflict in a political level or world level?

Speaker 4 Are they the same? That's an easy one. For me, they are the same.
And there's, you know, many researchers would disagree with that.

Speaker 4 Obviously, when you're dealing with a war or gang violence or then you are dealing with systems and structures and you know but guess who runs systems

Speaker 4 people

Speaker 4 so like where we are beginning from if we are able to stand on solid ground it when we're doing peace negotiations or creating policy or deciding how to punish someone right all of those things really matter.

Speaker 4 So they interact. And I don't think you can separate them.

Speaker 4 So I actually think the most interesting thing is the way all of this, the deep relationship stuff overlays onto politics, onto international diplomacy, onto all of these bigger systems of conflict.

Speaker 4 Because for me, it's like, okay, I can, that's an access point. This matters where we start in our own heads and whether we're on solid ground.
And even though there's a lot we can't control, right?

Speaker 4 And everyone around us might be in high conflict. You know, this morning I was talking to a group of people that we're doing workshops with with good conflict who are literally in a war zone.

Speaker 4 And you know what they want to talk about? The conflict with their significant others. Wow.
Because that's where it's like, it's, it's like your home base, right?

Speaker 4 Or, you know, or if you're a kid with your parents or even as an adult, your memories, right? So

Speaker 4 this is really important and informs everything else.

Speaker 4 And I want to go back to when Glenn and you said, oh my gosh, this takes so much heavy lifting.

Speaker 4 Like, how can we expect everyone to do this when it's so hard and takes years and years of work and maybe therapy and other things than you know not everybody can do right

Speaker 4 so i want to walk through a few shortcuts to help all of us get to that place more quickly thanks including you including me because i struggle with this too right and i have to be honest like if my husband hears this i he's going to be like oh my gosh you're not telling them that you're a lot like glennon

Speaker 4 in our fights like with strangers with strangers i'm pretty good now like i'm pretty like i can de-escalate pretty quickly. With friends, I'm pretty good.

Speaker 4 You know, with my kid, I'm pretty good most of the time. But, you know, the closer to home it gets, right? The closer it gets to that like point of vulnerability, the more dangerous it feels to me.

Speaker 4 And Glennon, it feels like it's a life or death, like this person's trying to kill me. And that is not fair, but it still is, right? And so the more we can try to interrupt that quickly.

Speaker 4 before it escalates, the better it's going to go. So let's talk about those cheat sheets.

Speaker 6 I would also like to out myself, just for purposes of listening to this, that if you, I mean, apparently it's a lot of us.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 At least on this show.

Speaker 4 Right. But it would be interesting to know, like, what percentage.
Well, we know most people are conflict avoidant, but you can be conflict avoidant and still have this reaction, right? Totally.

Speaker 4 So anyway, it's all about like, what is the instant thought that goes into your mind, which you don't control, right? And so that creates the feeling. And so then we have to like

Speaker 4 interrupt that cycle. Okay, so a couple of quick things.
First of all, Abby mentioned that you took a pause.

Speaker 4 And everybody always says that, oh, take a break. And I'm always like, really? Because I want to fight this out to the ground, right?

Speaker 4 Because, you know, it's such a strong, like, it's hard to kind of set it aside. But the best advice I got on this was from John and Julie Gottman, who study marriage conflict.

Speaker 4 And they said that you want the break to be at least 30 minutes and you want to do something that occupies your brain differently.

Speaker 4 Cause I used to like walk around the block, just like ruminating about the conflict and like coming up with like

Speaker 4 really cutting, like really cutting wait till he hears this. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 4 That's not a break. Yeah.
No. He in this case.
But yeah, it's not a break. So, you know, listen to a podcast.
That's one of the suggestions they gave. Watch a silly TV show.
Like listen to music.

Speaker 4 Like literally give your brain a break. Stare at trees, whatever.
But that is important. And so I'm glad that you mentioned that because it's easy.

Speaker 4 Like the worst advice anyone ever gave anyone was don't go to sleep angry.

Speaker 4 Terrible. Really?

Speaker 4 I spent years of my marriage being like, wake up.

Speaker 1 We have to resolve this at one in the morning.

Speaker 4 Terrible. I mean, we don't have the resources.
Like that's not a good idea. So

Speaker 4 do go to bed angry if you can possibly fall asleep, but maybe first take a walk or listen to a podcast or do something else. Do take the pause.

Speaker 4 And then there's a couple of things we want to avoid, like I call them fire starters, tripwires into high conflict.

Speaker 4 Okay, so the four fire starters that lead to high conflict that you want to avoid at all costs if you want to sleep at night and stay in relationship on this earth are humiliation,

Speaker 4 conflict entrepreneurs,

Speaker 4 corruption, and false binaries. And now let's go through each one, right? Yeah, great.
Humiliation.

Speaker 4 This is the nuclear bomb of the emotions, as the psychologist Evelyn Lindner says, who studies conflict.

Speaker 4 It is the forced and public degradation

Speaker 4 of some person or someone in your group, right?

Speaker 4 This is a guaranteed way to drive poisonous conflict. Every

Speaker 4 domestic violence, gang violence, war,

Speaker 4 much of American politics today is all being fueled by this constantly regenerating supply of humiliation. Yes.

Speaker 4 And you want to be aware of it so that you don't accidentally humiliate someone, or that if you do humiliate someone, you're aware of the cost, right?

Speaker 4 Or if someone's behaving in a way that doesn't make any sense, you ask yourself, do they feel humiliated? Even if like for sure they shouldn't?

Speaker 4 So Nelson Mandela said, there's no one more dangerous than one who's been humiliated, even when you humiliate him rightly. Which I love that little add-on.
That is so true.

Speaker 4 But so that's one to think about, especially on social media. And I mean, there's just so many ways to humiliate at scale today.
And then the next one is conflict entrepreneurs.

Speaker 4 So these are people or companies that exploit conflict for their own ends. They might do it for profit, but I think even more often it's for a sense of power and a sense that you matter.

Speaker 4 in the world, you're important.

Speaker 2 How would that person show up in a family? Oh, good question.

Speaker 2 Because that, that, you know, all of us can point to the Steve Bannons and the whole, you know, there's people who just make their whole living off.

Speaker 6 Or any social media platform, which the algorithm prefers that it looks like more conflict exists to keep you there. But yeah.

Speaker 4 Right. I mean, we're now like actively manufacturing conflict entrepreneurs in a way that we, I don't think we always will, but that's what's happening now.

Speaker 4 So, but yes, in a family is a great question because that's again a unit we can get our heads around. Yes.
Right.

Speaker 4 So usually a conflict entrepreneur is not just someone who, you know, complains or like is always kind of spoiling for a fight or is like real confrontational.

Speaker 4 It's someone who has made like a repeated habit over always seeming to kind of delight in the conflict or turn the knife. Do you know what I mean? Yep.

Speaker 4 And sometimes they will be really good at recruiting allies. So, example, every high conflict divorce, there's usually conflict entrepreneurs outside of the couple who are feeding that divorce.

Speaker 4 Maybe it's a sister, maybe it's a lawyer, somebody somewhere.

Speaker 4 And so mediators who work on high conflict divorce, one of the first things they do is map the conflict so they can figure out what are all the forces here and where is the conflict entrepreneur.

Speaker 4 So you can try to turn down the volume on the conflict entrepreneur if possible. And if not, manage them very differently.

Speaker 2 What does that person look like?

Speaker 6 So if you're imagining your family right now and you're like, we just always seem to have this conflict. you might have a conflict entrepreneur on your hands if they are what?

Speaker 6 Like always resharing this, the bad thing that someone said and calling everyone to tell them about it. If they are like, what do they do?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's constant recurring patterns of blame

Speaker 4 and hostility. So they are always a victim.
Everything is humiliating. Right.
They will actually interact with you.

Speaker 4 Like every, they will frame everything as disrespectful or humiliating or they will feel it that way.

Speaker 4 I mean, I don't think they're necessarily lying, but usually the theme is they've got some kind of inner pain that they haven't been willing or able to deal with and they are spreading it around in a way that is not helpful to anyone in the long term, including them, but feels protective to them, right, in the short term.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 4 And I just do want to add. that, you know, we can all be conflict entrepreneurs.
So as a journalist, like I just wake up every day and try not to be a conflict entrepreneur.

Speaker 4 It's very incentivized right now. And also some of the people I've learned the most from were once conflict entrepreneurs.

Speaker 4 So just because you were one, like Curtis Toller, who is a former high-ranking gang leader from Chicago, who now interrupts a lot of crazy violent conflict and has taught me a ton about even political conflict, all different kinds of conflict.

Speaker 4 He was a conflict entrepreneur by his own telling, right? And he had a lot of pain that he had not dealt with, but he's not one anymore. He's a conflict, I guess, interrupter, right?

Speaker 4 He's the opposite. So I just want to add that.

Speaker 5 So there's hope for you.

Speaker 2 And are those also the people who want to always dredge stuff up?

Speaker 2 Like, are they, because do they distract from their own pain by, when you said the word delight, that's what makes me, sometimes those people are super interesting at first.

Speaker 2 Like, are they the people that want to keep the gossip going? That

Speaker 2 when you tell them about your partner, they are like, that's fucked up. They're escalators.

Speaker 2 They want to heighten conflict, make you, you leave conversations with them and you feel more upset at everybody than you were when you entered this.

Speaker 4 Right. Yes.
Like the person who would come in my office when I worked at Time Magazine.

Speaker 4 And by the way, I loved her in many ways, but she would close the door and be like, I heard your story got killed. Is that true?

Speaker 4 And I'd be like, yeah, it is true. Yeah, it's a real bummer.
And then she'd be like,

Speaker 4 do you think it's because you're a woman?

Speaker 4 You know, and now I do. Maybe.
I wasn't thinking about that, but now I am.

Speaker 4 And like, she might be right, you know, but it's not helpful to me in that moment. Right.
Right.

Speaker 2 What's one tip for every single pot squatter right now is thinking, I'm thinking both. I'm thinking, I know who that is.
And I also know I am that person sometimes. So.

Speaker 2 What's the best way to neutralize in a short way

Speaker 2 a conflict entrepreneur?

Speaker 4 Yes. So I'm going to borrow here from there's a place called the High Conflict Institute that offers all kinds of tips and tricks and classes for dealing with really, really difficult people.

Speaker 4 So I recommend their website and also their books.

Speaker 4 But one of their tricks, Bill Eddy is one of the co-founders and he has this, they use this acronym, you know, like all good kind of businessy books called Biff,

Speaker 4 which is brief, informative, friendly, and firm. So this is how you respond to a conflict entrepreneur, maybe in an email or a text or whatever.
Brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

Speaker 4 It's just a way to kind of like, without thinking too much, don't get into the weeds. Just try to like validate them by like 10%.
Like you see them, you see them.

Speaker 4 If you can show them some genuine acknowledgement, do that. But then you get to the brief, informative, that's friendly and firm.

Speaker 5 This is interesting. Like in a team environment, I have found myself kind of needing to mediate a lot of vent sessions, whether it's about the coach or the decisions or player personnel choices.

Speaker 5 And it can get to a point where you're like, all right, like we've now tipped over. We've now gotten into a position where we're now all thinking that maybe our coach isn't good enough for us.

Speaker 5 And then there's interesting moments because the conflict entrepreneurs will show up because they want to keep it going. They want to keep it rising.

Speaker 5 That's where they get their kicks. Right.
And so I found myself having to, even though like it's a good moment for the team, you do need to have this like tension, like valve release.

Speaker 5 And there also needs to be the person who's like, oh, this is now turned negative, extraordinarily negative.

Speaker 5 And so it's like this Biff is interesting because I've definitely had to be like, all right, you guys, that's enough. We need to focus on something different.

Speaker 4 There needs to be some sort of stopping of the, yeah, you know, and you can sense this, right? When you're with your friend and you're, you're venting and like she's cheerleading for you.

Speaker 4 And she's like, you're so right. He's so wrong.

Speaker 4 And there's a certain point at which you're like,

Speaker 4 yeah, I still need to figure out what to do. Yes.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 There's like this. invisible line where, yeah, it feels good at first, like a warm bath and it brings everyone together because we have a common enemy.

Speaker 4 But then it becomes a little bit like marination, right? Like you're kind of indulging. It's actually funny you say that because fans do this too, right?

Speaker 4 My friend Alex was just telling me yesterday that she was at a Washington Spirit game, DC's professional soccer team, and she loves going to these games.

Speaker 4 I mean, we play soccer together ourselves and she loves every time there's a game, she's so happy.

Speaker 4 And the section she's sitting in, for some reason, the other fans in this section, have just this real kind of grievance mentality.

Speaker 4 Like they're always feeling like the ref is trying to destroy them and like everything is unfair. And

Speaker 4 they're in this kind of loop, feedback loop with each other, right? Or that feeds, it feeds on itself.

Speaker 4 And then one of them yelled something, and my friend Alex was so pissed. And she doesn't know them, right? So what does she do? But it's actually ruining her experience of this game.

Speaker 4 And so, you know what she did? It was very biff, actually, now that I think about it. And she used no words.
She just turned around

Speaker 4 and she just looked at him like,

Speaker 4 huh?

Speaker 4 like, wow, that's, I've never seen that bird in the wild.

Speaker 4 That's so good.

Speaker 4 Like a full shoulder turn, right? Yes, I love the full shoulder turn. London loves to employ that.

Speaker 2 I employ a lot of full shoulder turns. But what you're suggesting is a face of curiosity and not condemnation and humiliation, right?

Speaker 4 Right. Because those are two different things.
Really tricky, right? Yes.

Speaker 6 But that's beautiful because what that does, especially, I mean, I love that visual of like a crowd of thousands and one person says something and it can't necessarily be attributed to them.

Speaker 6 You're sort of like an anonymous person on social media making a comment. But when someone turns around with the full shoulder and looks in that person's eyes and says, I see you particular person,

Speaker 6 you are a human who made that choice. I am a human seeing you.
You actually just said that to a human. You're no longer.
an anonymous throwing a match on a fire.

Speaker 6 You're a person who has to take responsibility for what you just said.

Speaker 4 That's right. Right.
Like we are humans humans in a civilization together, and there are norms. Like, that's the unwritten subhead of that full shoulder term.
Right.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Oh my gosh.
But it is really hard because if you turn around and we're like, if you kind of gave them a look, like, what the hell, right?

Speaker 4 Which she, believe me, very much wanted to do and add some language, then it's just going to escalate. Right.
And now you're, you're making it easy for them, right?

Speaker 2 You're just yeah, it's like you're asking them, are you sure?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like with your face, like, are you sure this is the choice you want to make?

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yeah.
What's so weird is that I thought I just heard you say that.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 It could be.

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Speaker 4 Getting to those other fire starters. So corruption, if you can't trust the referees

Speaker 4 in society, then you will take matters into your own hands. And so that's another tripwire, a fire starter, right, for high conflict.

Speaker 5 Can you give me an example of that? Like, obviously the referees can be a lot of people.

Speaker 2 Because we don't have any

Speaker 6 in our world. So I'm just trying to understand, like, say theoretically we didn't believe in the sanctity of our institutions.

Speaker 4 What would that look like? Yeah.

Speaker 4 In what distant planet?

Speaker 4 Yeah. So let me take my own profession of journalism, right? 18% of Americans say that they trust.
newspapers now. And when I got into the business, it was twice that.

Speaker 4 So now Americans are saying they trust journalism way less than they trust the police, way less than they trust military, way less than they trust large technology companies, the medical system,

Speaker 4 and banks.

Speaker 4 Okay, this is a big problem.

Speaker 4 And I just said this to a group of journalists. I'm like, look, you can spend all night.
calling foul and being like, that's not fair. We are doing our best.

Speaker 4 And you're, you know, you're, we've been villainized, right? And that's some of that's true. But at the end of the day, if your spouse trusted you less than banks, you have got some work to do.

Speaker 4 And you can stay up all night complaining how you've been misunderstood. But if you want to stay in a relationship, you've got to rebuild that relationship, right?

Speaker 4 Like you've got to really start doing things very differently because

Speaker 4 When there's that level of distrust in our society, as we keep seeing, you can't do anything. You can't solve even the problems that you want to solve.

Speaker 4 And so journalism is one example where there's a lot of corruption and perceived corruption. And together, it just undermines the whole endeavor.

Speaker 4 That makes me think:

Speaker 2 is it possible that that's why

Speaker 2 conflict inside of relationships is also so hard? Because if you are like most of us who grew up

Speaker 2 raised by parents who maybe didn't, you know, all of us had parents who,

Speaker 2 we haven't all had an experience where we looked at marriage and we're like, I trust that institution as the vehicle that will help me evolve spiritually and that I will be able to bring my full self to and be safe inside of and that will not swallow me up and kill me dead.

Speaker 2 That makes me think that it's the same. I just started trusting marriage and this relationship, I think, a couple months ago.

Speaker 2 I'm serious. I know.
Do you think that for people who,

Speaker 2 if each person actually believed in their relationship or their marriage, this is for me? me. I can trust this institution.
I can trust this setup.

Speaker 2 You would go into the arena differently than when I don't have a model for this working out to the best and highest of each person's whatever. It's the same, right?

Speaker 5 Yeah, you don't bring any weapons if you trust it.

Speaker 4 That's a good point.

Speaker 6 But don't you think that is about,

Speaker 6 I think it's about the minute percentage of time we're understood.

Speaker 6 And theoretically, the person who's closest to us is supposed to understand us most.

Speaker 6 It's inversely related. The offense

Speaker 6 is so much bigger and the threat is so much bigger. It's like etu bruté.
It's like even you it's very close to home. We live together.
We love each other.

Speaker 6 And like, if you can't understand me, then I am ununderstandable.

Speaker 6 Either I am ununderstandable and can never be loved, or you're fucked.

Speaker 2 One or the other.

Speaker 6 And I can't accept that that i can never be understood and never be loved so you must be that's much more comforting although also terrifying yes exactly because would you say it was like five percent of interactions of any human in their life five percent they're people feel heard that means 95 of the time people don't feel heard right so you're getting down to it which is

Speaker 4 people don't trust

Speaker 4 marriage because it is not trustworthy. And one of the reasons that it has not been trustworthy is because people aren't being heard or seen.

Speaker 4 And the same is true with journalism and politics and many other things, right? So there's a piece of it that's been embellished by conflict entrepreneurs, for sure.

Speaker 4 But then also at the root of it, yeah, what you're saying, Amanda, is like,

Speaker 4 I don't trust this thing because I should not trust this thing. Do you know what I mean? Like there's some truth there.

Speaker 4 And so I guess, yeah, for both marriage and journalism and politics and all the things, public health, many things,

Speaker 4 we have to really work on helping people feel heard and seen and being heard so that

Speaker 4 this whole thing doesn't just fall apart.

Speaker 6 Which is why in order to be

Speaker 6 until we understand that we can

Speaker 6 both understand someone else and hold our core in us, nothing's ever going to be trustworthy.

Speaker 6 No relationship is ever going to be because at the end of the day, we are always going to choose our core keeping us safe and keeping our

Speaker 6 whatever we think we're protecting versus understanding. So that is why like

Speaker 6 you're, can you take us to like, say we're in that conflict and we're feeling the tension and we know we're having that. axiomatic response of like, it's me or them.
It's me or them.

Speaker 6 What can we actually ask? I love your like better questions or things like that, where we're like, I can

Speaker 6 both believe they are totally wrong and I'm totally right. And I can try to understand what they're saying.

Speaker 4 So you're trying to slow down the conflict. So maybe you take a break, maybe you don't.
Another thing you can do is looping, which is a tactical listening technique.

Speaker 4 And there's others out there, right? But you're taking what you heard the person say, distilling it into your own language. and playing it back and asking if you got it right.

Speaker 4 So getting in the habit of doing that all the time, not just when you're in conflict, is really, really helpful to slow down that nervous system response that you're having.

Speaker 4 Also to force yourself to actually listen to the person, right? So that you're trying to re-engage with that curious part of your brain and prevent that cycle from taking place.

Speaker 4 And you're really trying to get them in that moment. And so the more you can make that a habit and a routine.

Speaker 4 in your relationships, and it does take practice, let me tell you, then the better it's going to go because once people feel heard their whole posture shifts you know literally their shoulders go down i mean i've seen it happen a hundred times even if you didn't get it right when you tried to play it back in your own language they're just so grateful someone's trying i mean it's almost heartbreaking

Speaker 4 and often they don't even know themselves like as they're talking and you're playing it back they're like oh you know and actually until i'm saying it now i never realized but it reminds me of of this thing that happened to me 20 years ago, or it really made me feel small, or, you know, whatever.

Speaker 4 They're coming up with it because they don't know either. So they don't even feel hurt by themselves.

Speaker 4 That's

Speaker 4 great. That kind of ritual and practice is really, really important.

Speaker 2 What is the question we should be asking going into conflict? What should we be going in? What should our intention be?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I think any kind of conflict, whether it's interpersonal or bigger conflict, right? Or with strangers, try to figure out the understory of the conflict for you and for the other person.

Speaker 4 What is this conflict really about?

Speaker 4 And it's usually one of just four things.

Speaker 4 So, you know, you don't have to spend all day on it. I mean, it's like one of four.

Speaker 4 You know, maybe we should create some kind of like card deck or you spin a wheel because it's one of those and sometimes more than one, but it's limited. And it's respect and recognition,

Speaker 4 power and control,

Speaker 4 care and concern. This is Abby, like, am I loved? Am I good?

Speaker 4 And stress and overwhelm. This is why staying up all night fighting is a bad idea, right?

Speaker 4 Because often the understory of conflict is many of these things stacked, but if people are tired and stressed and overwhelmed and hungry, then that itself is the understory of the conflict.

Speaker 4 It's the thing the conflict's really about. And we want to figure out what that is.
We want to figure it out quickly for ourselves and for the other person so that then

Speaker 4 we can have the right fight.

Speaker 4 Right. It's a fight we need to have, because otherwise we're going to have a bunch of nonsense fights with the wrong people at the wrong time, which is what we're seeing, right?

Speaker 4 Think of the wasted suffering and energy and time because we're not having the right fight. That's really about humiliation, right? Which is the flip side of respect and recognition.

Speaker 4 Or it's really about, I mean, fear underlies all of them, basically, right? All the understories. So can we get to that quickly? And looping or a listening technique is one way, right?

Speaker 4 Also years of therapy helps, but we don't always have that, right?

Speaker 4 So, but can we figure out and people will give you breadcrumbs, like they will give you clues, but you really have to listen and ask different questions as well.

Speaker 4 So that for me is when I'm at my best, that is what I'm looking for is the understory.

Speaker 2 Can you give us an example of that? Sure. Like, what would that look like, a typical fight between two people? And then how would they figure that out?

Speaker 4 Like, so two people sitting in a kitchen in the book, I talk about a couple that got into a war over who was going to get the crock pot and the divorce. There's a lot of stories like this, but

Speaker 4 because they weren't figuring out what the understory was, but it turned out they'd gotten this crock pot as a wedding gift.

Speaker 4 And the wife's childhood was like the crock pot was an important part of it. Every Sunday, you know, the house would be filled with the smell of a roast or something.

Speaker 4 And she had always thought this was the kind of life they would have, but they had never used it even once in real life. Like they'd never used this crock pot.
It was brand new.

Speaker 4 But then why did the husband want it? Well, the husband wanted it because his wife wanted the divorce.

Speaker 4 He didn't even want the divorce. So by God, he's going to claw back everything he can, right? So let's at least argue about that.

Speaker 4 Right. Because otherwise we're just going to go endlessly through all the possessions and this will take years and years and millions of dollars.

Speaker 4 But in a smaller way, I know it's cliche, but when I open the dishwasher and it looks like a pack of wolves have thrown their dishes in, it like really pisses me off. Right.
And usually after

Speaker 4 everyone has like this conflict pretty much in their family. And it's like, for my husband and my son, they don't really think about it.

Speaker 4 So for them, the understory is nothing. Like there's nothing underneath it.
But for me, it's respect and recognition. Like for me, it feels like, oh, I see this is women's work.
This is beneath you.

Speaker 4 So you're just going to like throw this Tupperware in there. And it's up to me

Speaker 4 to like bring order to the chaos because I guess my time doesn't matter.

Speaker 5 Yeah, because the reason why they don't think about it is because they know you will and they know you are going to handle it. I say often, who do you think does it?

Speaker 5 When you put something in the sink, who do you think puts it in the dishwasher?

Speaker 2 Well, babe, it's women's work.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 5 Drives me nuts.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 6 Oh, God, it's so true because then you just have the wrong fight.

Speaker 4 Right. Right.

Speaker 4 I could spend endless time talking about the physics of the machine and how the water goes and like, don't you know? It's like, okay, that's not going to. But if they knew, right?

Speaker 4 If they knew this is how this lands with me, which of course they would totally disagree with and object on 800 levels. But if you just know that,

Speaker 4 it doesn't mean you now agree that it's about respect, but it means like, okay.

Speaker 4 Maybe I'm going to spend an extra eighth of a second putting this in here because for you, this is how that feels, you know?

Speaker 2 What I hear you saying is a beautiful thing, which is you don't even have to decide as a family or between two people that this is about respect.

Speaker 4 Right. Yes.

Speaker 2 What you have to do is

Speaker 2 accept that this is about respect for mom.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 2 You don't have to have a shared understanding to respect something.

Speaker 5 Exactly. And the thing that I'm thinking about right now is that it's so vulnerable

Speaker 5 for me

Speaker 5 to say,

Speaker 5 this feels disrespectful to me. It is so vulnerable, especially being a bonus parent, you know, like I just am like, I want to be in their good graces all the time and I want them to like me.

Speaker 5 And it's harder for me to say, this feels really disrespectful to me

Speaker 5 about whatever, even if it's something other than the dishwasher. Like it's so hard for me to get vulnerable

Speaker 5 enough because I'm just like, I'll just keep dealing with it. I'll just keep being annoyed by it.
And I think that that's the problem I have being conflict avoidant.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I think, what about if there's a little like sentence starter that we come up with that you use before that where you say something like,

Speaker 4 this is going to sound ridiculous. I know.
And I know it's irrational. But the story I'm telling myself is that

Speaker 4 you don't respect our time or whatever. You know, you come up with the words that are right to you.

Speaker 4 But sometimes the story I'm telling myself can be for me a useful because I'll be like, the story I'm telling myself is that you are out to destroy me.

Speaker 2 And then they'll be like, I use that all the time.

Speaker 4 But like, at least I'm acknowledging this is a story. It's not the only story.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yes.
So good. For me, I think saying it's disrespectful.

Speaker 4 is even more. You know, even as I said it, it felt too.

Speaker 2 That's not it. Right.
Because that means this, when you do this, you are full of disrespect. That's not, that is not necessarily the story.
It's more like, I receive this

Speaker 2 as disrespect. And that has to do with a lot of things that are not necessarily about you.

Speaker 4 Right. Or maybe even we don't even use the word respect.
Like maybe it's about care. You know, it's like,

Speaker 4 it feels like you don't, I know you care about us and the house and everybody, you know. chipping in and it feels like you don't when I see that and I'm like, ah, what does it feel like to you?

Speaker 4 You know, I don't know. Maybe there's some other, because yeah, disrespect is a really, it's tough, tough word.

Speaker 2 Leave us with one question that we should go into. One time I heard you say, this changed a lot for me.
I think when I go into a conflict, I tend to think, I have to make sure I'm understood.

Speaker 2 That's my goal.

Speaker 2 Less helpful, I think,

Speaker 2 than

Speaker 2 a different question I could be asking, which is, I think I heard you say that we just have to say, go into a conflict with the question of, I'm just going to try to understand this person a little bit more.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to try to have world peace. I'm not going to try to make whatever.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to try to be understood, but I'm just going to go in and say, my only goal is to try to understand this person a little bit more. Is that a thing?

Speaker 4 That is the gold standard. Like, if you can get there, right?

Speaker 4 It's like, and I actually think for journalism too, now, when we train journalists, it's like, look, the goal is, can we help people understand themselves, the other person,

Speaker 4 or the problem a little better. And if we can do that, other things will magically follow, right? It's not the end of the story, but it's the beginning.
And that's what a good mediation session does.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. And I love what you said about not needing to solve it.
Cause I think when I go into a conflict and feel like we have got to resolve the policy on dishwashers forevermore, right?

Speaker 4 But instead, if I could just be like, what are you thinking? Like when you put that plate there, like, truly, what is going through your mind?

Speaker 4 And you have to say it in such a way, like you're genuinely curious, which I think is hard sometimes. If you're, you know, so you, that's where you have to do the pause.

Speaker 4 But if you could, yeah, I think, Lennon, that's it. Is if you could just be like, wow, I'm gonna try to, I'm gonna shift from being a judge and jury to being a detective or an anthropologist, right?

Speaker 4 And be like,

Speaker 4 what does this boy think is happening with the dish?

Speaker 2 Yes. Because the story thing is just as true in reverse.

Speaker 6 You are telling yourself a story, but you're also, especially if you are like tiptoeing to the dangerous, I'm out of anger and I'm into apathy stage.

Speaker 6 You are not only telling yourself a story, you are

Speaker 6 attributing a story for sure. that the other person has.

Speaker 6 And if you're never having that active conflict to figure out if that story is true that you're saying about that person, you're just accepting that that is their story.

Speaker 6 That when they put that in, they're like, yeah, fuck her. She's got more time.
This is what she should be doing anyway, whatever. If you don't interrogate that story,

Speaker 6 then that becomes the reality you're living in. That's right.
And one of the greatest things that's happening to me is finding out that the stories that I was for sure were true, 100% sure

Speaker 6 were not.

Speaker 4 Isn't that chilling? It's like astonishing how wrong our stories can be. I mean, going back real quick to Curtis Toller, the former gang leader who does violence interruption, the Chicago Cred,

Speaker 4 he spent years in a vendetta with a rival gang, with the gangster disciples, about a story that wasn't true. It turned out, just wasn't true.

Speaker 5 I mean,

Speaker 4 people are dead. You know what I mean? Like, this is the fundamental human flaw is almost these stories.

Speaker 4 And what story am I telling myself today that isn't true?

Speaker 6 And it's very vulnerable because, like, what you said, Abby, in order to make it about you and not make about the other person, the only true story is like,

Speaker 6 I

Speaker 6 have a strong need to be respected and I have a strong need to be cared for. And that is

Speaker 4 so vulnerable

Speaker 6 rather than being like, these are the ways you're deficient to say, like, I need help

Speaker 6 because I need to feel respected and I don't.

Speaker 4 Owning your the root caught, like the root wound.

Speaker 2 People should keep little index cards in their houses of these four things. Yes.
Like, because it's not like your brain really can do that.

Speaker 4 It's so hard. It's too late.

Speaker 2 It's too, it's like you're already hijacked by adrenaline and

Speaker 2 self-preservation. But I think I would like to keep like a few little index cards and just feel like possible root causes.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's a good idea.

Speaker 6 And so we already came up with an acronym, SCRAP.

Speaker 6 Before you get into a scrap, I love that. Think about that.
Stress and overwhelm, care and concern, respect and recognition, power and control.

Speaker 2 That's really good.

Speaker 4 Scrap before you scrap. So scrappy.
I love that. And

Speaker 4 also like little catchphrases. Like my friend John Dickerson, who's a journalist, he and his wife talk about the crockpot all the time.
They just, because they can just shortcut the fight.

Speaker 4 They'll be like, okay.

Speaker 2 What's the crockpot?

Speaker 4 This is a crock pot. This argument over the thermostat is a crock pot.
Like, what are we actually fighting about? So that you can get more quickly to the understory?

Speaker 5 I would also like to just love that. I just, I know we have to end, but I just would like to know what everybody fights about.
It makes me feel comfortable.

Speaker 4 Oh, yeah. Let's could we ask people to contribute in the call in the comments.
Like, what is the recurring

Speaker 4 like late being late, right? When the other person's late. Yeah, what is your crock pot?

Speaker 4 What is your crock pot?

Speaker 5 Like, the actual fight, and then

Speaker 4 both. It's a two-part question.
Both.

Speaker 2 Yes. I love that.
Okay, Pod Squad. You heard it.
We We need to know what is your most frequent high conflict conflict. And it can be with anybody.
It could be with your sister, your

Speaker 2 person, your whatever. And then what do you think is the story under it? And we need to know the details of the fight.

Speaker 6 I like the right fight and the wrong fight too. Like, what's the wrong fight you have all the time? And what's the real fight you actually need to have?

Speaker 6 Yes, because that is a good, you're like, we're fighting all the time. We're doing great.

Speaker 4 But are you fighting? Are you having a right fight?

Speaker 6 Or like the surface: 747-200-5307. Tell us about your crock pots.

Speaker 4 Oh,

Speaker 2 thank you, Amanda Ripley. You are the best.

Speaker 4 I can't wait to love you. Like Christmas morning when you guys get these.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'm so glad you said that because I was just thinking, like, oh, it's way better if people call it in. Yes.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Sophie is so good.

Speaker 2 The Pod Squad never lets us down.

Speaker 4 Thank you for having me back. This is so much fun.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Amanda. And Pod Squad, we love you.
We will hear from you in a minute. We are quite sure.

Speaker 2 All right. See you soon.

Speaker 4 Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.