How to Have *Healthy* Conflict with Amanda Ripley (Best Of)

As summer winds down and fall winds up and life is crazy and the last thing you need to be worried about is what to wear, I need to remind you about my go-to, Quince.

Their pieces are that perfect blend of elevated and easy.

I've been living in their distressed denim shirt dress.

Am I looking cute in an actual dress?

Yes.

Is it secretly denim?

Also, yes.

Does it look great, but also not touch my skin?

Is it under $50?

Yes, yes, and yes.

Also, because bathing suit shopping is just another reason to cry, I need you to please do yourself a solid and peruse Quince's bathing suits.

All summer, I wore their Italian v-neck bikini top and Italian high-rise bikini bottom, each for under $25.

Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with Quince.

Go to quince.com/slash hardthings for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-i-n-ce-e dot com slash hardthings to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

Quince.com slash hard things.

Hello, friends.

As you know, back to school season, meaning back to crazy bananas life season, is officially here.

And speaking of bananas and overscheduling, I've been leaning hard on my Whole Foods market runs right about now to keep everything on track.

Between packing lunches, planning quick dinners in the 13 minutes we have together and just trying to stay sane during busy weeks.

They've seriously come through.

One thing that's been a total game changer is the 365 by Whole Foods Market brand.

I started picking up the frozen waffles and breakfast sausage and all kinds of things like that for the hectic mornings.

And this is like magic because the kids get a good breakfast.

We all get out of the door on time.

It's a win-win-win.

And for lunches, they have organic granola bar multi-packs and they have reduced sugar juice boxes, bagged apples, all the things that are fast, easy, and you feel good for them to be eating.

Explore so many ways to save on Back to School Finds at Whole Foods Market.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

So here's what we're doing today.

We jumped in to this conversation about conflict with Amanda Ripley, who is freaking amazing.

And we got so excited to talk to her that we felt like we did this deep dive into the ocean of conflict and forgot to do any of the basics, okay?

So

we asked Amanda to come back

to talk to us about like an introductory conversation to conflict because we felt like the conversation we had was so important that we needed to set a foundation first.

So Amanda, thank you for coming back.

Amanda Ripley is an investigative journalist and author.

Her most recent book is High Conflict, which chronicles how people get trapped by conflicts of all kinds and how they get out.

Her previous books included The Unthinkable and The Smartest Kids in the World, a New York Times bestseller, which was also turned into a documentary film.

So, Amanda, thank you for coming back.

We wanted to start by asking you questions we should have asked you the first time.

For example, what is conflict?

Thank you for having me back.

Yes.

Delighted.

I just want to know, this topic is so incredibly important, right?

Because our entire lives, we're going through

trying to connect with people

while also maintaining our individuality.

And that seems to be like a push-pull inside of conflict.

And because of that, conflict with other people is

crucial.

We have to have it, right?

So talk to us about what is good kind of conflict and then what is,

is it high conflict?

Is that what, okay, what is high conflict?

Okay.

So yeah, we need conflict.

We probably need more of it than we have, which I know is shocking.

We just need a different kind of it.

And conflict, like you said, is this push-pull, right?

It's this friction, this tension.

I like to think of it as resistance.

kind of like if you go work out, like you need some resistance or else, what are you even doing?

Right.

and that's how we get challenged that's how we challenge each other that's how we get pushed is that resistance but there's different ways to work out right you could work out and destroy your body in 20 minutes or less maybe a minute so you want to do it in a way that is actually helping you get stronger and there's also internal conflict i just want to add right it's not always between you and another

person.

This is something we're constantly trying to get journalists to remember is like like internal conflict is really interesting.

I mean, you all, you all know this.

This is like stating the obvious to you, but internal conflict is also a big piece of the equation because that's where it all begins, right?

So to answer your question, when I started working on high conflict, I was following people who were trapped in really ugly, dysfunctional conflicts of all kinds all around the world.

And I was asking them, how did you get out?

And it turned out that's the wrong question because

we need conflict.

Getting to zero conflict is not the goal, right?

The question was, how did you get out of high conflict and into good conflict?

So high conflict is a special kind of conflict that becomes conflict for conflict's sake.

It escalates.

It begins to distort our perception.

It's usually an us versus them kind of deal, right?

And we start to feel we are morally superior and also quite threatened by the other side, which sometimes we are, sometimes we aren't, but the feeling is very strong and consistent.

And in that state, the research is really clear that we just make a ton of mistakes.

I mean, we literally lose our peripheral vision and figuratively.

So we miss opportunities when they arise.

And it's also really hard on your body and mind and your soul.

You know, it's just that chronic stress of being in that state.

It's characterized by things like contempt,

disgust,

predictability.

You know exactly it's the same arguments over and over, right?

And you're maybe having them in your head.

And also a real sense of righteousness and superiority.

So those are some of the characteristics of high conflict.

And then good conflict is more about anger.

Anger is okay.

Anger means you want me to be better, right?

Contempt means you've given up on me.

So good conflict is like anger, sadness, frustration, flashes of curiosity where you didn't expect them to arise, right?

Flashes of surprise, a sense of movement that you can kind of feel like you don't know where this is going, but it is going somewhere as opposed to just being like stuck.

Yes, yes.

That flashed for me when you were saying that the biggest distinction between healthy conflict and high conflict is movement versus stagnation.

That like in healthy conflict, you are going somewhere.

There may be the anger and the yelling, but there's a movement and a pushing.

The yelling is for a moving through it, as opposed to the point is the yelling and staying in this place of yelling at each other because we cannot move from this place.

This is where we want to be.

Exactly.

Right.

There's a sense that you don't know what's on the other side, but there is something.

Yeah.

And you're moving through it.

And you might take two steps forward, one step back, but you're not just stuck on repeat.

So when you say that, I'm thinking in terms of Abby and I, understanding what you're saying through the lens of our relationship.

If you're experiencing movement towards something, we have been in conflict where I have felt that.

But that has only been recently after a lot of work where we've figured out to name sort of what a shared understanding of what the conflict is for, what we're going towards.

That is not how we used to do it.

And I'm wondering for you, if it's because when I get in a conflict with my partner,

up until recently, I'm actually not working towards a goal.

I am

fighting for my life.

Whether I know this or not, when we get into a conflict, there has not been in the past a mutual understanding that we have decided we are trying to work towards this thing to get to a better understanding of each other.

And

that's always my goal.

I know, all right but i just got there so you were moving i had to say i had to show off oh i'm so healthy we're about to get into a conflict right now what i'm trying to say is i have great sympathy for the stagnation the like no one's moving yeah because trauma response when you get into conflict with someone you love or anybody anybody is I have to fight for my life right now.

I'm under attack.

They think I'm crazy.

So that in itself is a standing still.

It's a planting your feet in and you're trying like hell to stand still because you're trying to exist.

It's self-defense versus we're moving towards somewhere.

Like

the sense of self and confidence and unfear you have to have to be like, oh, this isn't about me.

No, but I'm not under attack.

This isn't about my character.

We are working together to move towards a goal.

Is that something people do to have good conflict?

Like they state the intention of where they're going.

I think that's essential, and it's really hard to get there because it's one thing to say, oh, this is what we're going to do, this is our protocol going forward.

But then, how,

Glennon, do you do that so that you can?

Because when we feel threatened, rightly or wrongly, it's impossible to feel curious, like you can't do both.

Yes.

So, how do you get yourself

from

that

fear mode into collaborative mode.

Oh, are you asking?

Yeah,

I think we should probably talk about our most recent conflict that was really helpful with the extraordinary wise

pause that we took.

And I went upstairs, I made some tea and I came downstairs and Glennon, when I came downstairs, the vibe in which it wasn't even necessarily like, hey, so we're going to work towards something here.

It was just the vibe in which she presented her

experience.

And so what happened in my body, because so often in our prior conflicts, she's fighting for her life.

And I am now energetically absorbing this fighting for her life, which almost in some ways, forces me to counteract and respond in a way that I too am now also fighting for my life.

And I try to remember and be like, oh, this is, we are doing this for something else.

But because Glennon came with this new energy that was like, hey, I think that we need to

be a little bit more direct in the way that we're talking to each other.

I was trying to get her attention and teasing her more frequently in the last couple of weeks.

And it was something that I was doing for X reason and she was getting frustrated with me because it wasn't feeling good.

And I was missing, we were missing.

She was trying to get at me.

In moments of stress, I go internal and get quiet.

And that scares her.

So she starts coming at me in a lot of different ways.

She's trying to get me out, but it makes me shut down more.

But I think that moment of conflict, it was the first time in my entire life, which we talked about after, that I didn't immediately think subconsciously.

It's not something that I think of.

You're my enemy.

And I have to figure out how to win this, how to make myself seem like I'm right, how to make it clear that I'm not crazy here, that everything that I think is valid.

And in order for me to make sure that you don't think that I'm crazy, I have to make you seem crazy.

This is zero-sum game, right?

And what scares me about

conflict getting to a place where we can do it better as a world is that I cannot believe the amount of emotional intelligence, stability, regulation,

non-shame.

I think

that not coming to an argument with shame

deep underneath everything is the answer.

And I haven't worked that out yet.

I just have less shame right now than I've ever had before.

And when I enter a conflict with a base of an underlying belief that I'm not good, I'm not capable of maintaining myself,

I will fight for my life.

And there is no

way we're making it anywhere from here.

Each of us goes to our shame responses, right?

Like Glennon is like, I'm crazy.

And so that's where she's conflicting from.

And I go to, I'm not lovable.

You're going to leave me.

And so that's where I, and so interestingly, in our conflicts, that's super triggering for the other.

But like now

we have done so much work on ourselves, right?

So it's like, I came to this argument yesterday without I am crazy, without

I am bad.

So I have to justify all my actions.

She came to the argument without the belief that I was going to leave.

And just that

changed everything.

We were able to be curious.

I felt like, oh, I remembered, oh, I love this person.

That was new.

She's not my enemy.

That was new.

I stayed soft.

I've never stayed soft in my entire life in a conflict.

That was new.

Wow.

And you stayed strong.

Yeah.

I got soft, you got strong.

Yeah.

Which was different.

And so basically, this is a long way of saying, holy shit, it's so hard.

How do we expect people to do this?

Like, it takes an emotional giant.

Yeah.

Right.

I know.

I mean, first of all, that's fucking awesome.

So good on you.

You know what I mean?

Like.

Some people die.

Most people die and never get there with their partner.

So yes, it is really hard, but let's take a moment and be like, wow, what a cool thing.

I mean, that must have felt like

almost out of body, right?

Glennon, to be like, I'm okay here.

I can stand here.

It felt like

magic.

Yeah.

It felt like magic.

Like, oh, I get it.

Like, I do not have to fight for my life in conflict because I've got me.

Wow.

There's a steadiness now that I can enter

into situations with people

and be soft because it's like that soft front strong back thing

like when you have a strong back

you can be so soft up front and one of the things that i think that is very clear with your work and with the way we've kind of processed through this is the absolute essential need to

a

understand yourself and become aware of your own process inside of conflict and to take care of your own business, right?

So like to regulate your own self, because I think when we get into these high conflict states, you're just talking about people or things that are just dysregulated, trying to regulate through this conflict.

And we were trying to clean up our side of the street.

Right.

And I think that that has been kind of transformative to enter into what we now understand to be good conflict.

It's like we each have an inner tube now.

And before we were just drowning, I was drowning and dragging anybody down with me.

Like if you were with me, if I'm going down, I'm drowning, I'm going to take you down.

And now we each have our own tools and we can like float next to each other.

So that's a great analogy.

I feel like what you're talking about, which

is so fascinating, because there's so much about healthy conflict and high conflict that is they're like crazy different beasts.

Like high conflict is a system.

It's a very specific thing that's happening there but it feels like the common denominator in both of these is this

the absolute revelation i had when reading your book is the concept that

you can both

at the same time truly understand someone

and vehemently disagree with them

right that if you believe

that i can hold on to my incredible disagreement with you, which means holding on to my values, my beliefs, my experience, my wants.

I can have all of those and have them uncompromised by my understanding of where you're coming from.

It doesn't mean I agree with you.

It means that you can hold both of those things together.

That is true in

relationship, because it's like, I just want to understand what you're talking about.

I'm not changing my boundary.

I'm not changing what I need.

It's like there's, yeah, there's like a third door, right?

It's not this or that.

It's not war or agreement or surrender, right?

It's this third door.

And to hold all that, like you said, Amanda, you got to be on solid ground, right?

Like that's a lot to hold.

And so I think that's what.

Abby and Glennon, you're describing is that feeling of all of a sudden not being in quicksand.

And I also just want to acknowledge that it sounded like, Abby, also you too

were able to speak up for yourself, right?

And not collapse into making Glennon feel better.

Or is that what you meant?

Yes.

And I think that that's so important because what Glennon was doing prior is fighting for her life externally.

Right.

I was fighting for my life internally.

And so that was something that I was able to actually pull up as a part of me.

And I even talked when we processed, of course, in beautiful lesbian fashion, we processed the fight after the fight.

I was able to pull up a moment in my childhood

where

frustration and feeling like I had no control with my life or whatever came up for me and I would rage.

And it was, I was able to kind of draw this line to this part of myself that was very young, that was very frustrated.

And I was able to like look at that part.

So yes, all of that, what you're saying is true.

And for me to be able to fight, not fight, but to do this conflict without losing myself or putting myself away, because I've been so conflict avoidant.

I didn't know that there was such a thing as good conflict until recently.

Honestly, like the truth of that, like I really didn't know.

And I think it's beautiful that we've been able to work on probably the hardest parts of ourselves.

Life is hard, but when it comes to sleep, that's hard too.

Enter the Chili Pad by Sleep Me.

Chili Pad is a water-based mattress topper that lets you customize your sleep temperature from a crisp 55 degrees Fahrenheit to a cozy 115 degrees Fahrenheit, so you can finally fall asleep and wake up feeling refreshed.

Chili Pad funnels a thin layer of water underneath you as you sleep, achieving active and and consistent temperature control.

Plus, you can schedule automated temperature changes too.

Visit www.sleep.me slash hardthings to get your ChiliPad and save 20% off with code HARDTHINGS.

This special offer is available for We Can Do Hard Things listeners and only for a limited time.

Order it today with free shipping and try it out for 30 days.

You can return it for free if you don't like it with their sleep trial.

Visit www.sleep.sl e

dot M-E slash hard things to try Chili Pad.

And finally, make sleep the easiest thing you do.

Have you noticed that your family wants dinner every single God given night?

It doesn't matter that you've served it the last 12 nights.

Here we are at 6.30 and they're asking for it once again.

It's unrelenting and it's unforgivable.

You've probably heard of HelloFresh, but if you haven't tried it lately, you're missing out.

It is the answer to our problems.

I used it a while back and liked it, but this summer I came back and they've leveled up.

They've doubled their menu.

You can choose from 100 recipes each week.

I just made the chickpea tikka masala the other night so easy and the flavors were next level.

Also, did you know that they have ready to eat meals now?

I'm talking zero labor.

The best way to cook just got better.

Go to hellofresh.com slash hard things 10 FM now to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life.

one per box with active subscriptions.

Free meals applied as a discount on the first box.

New subscribers only varies by plan.

That's hellofresh.com slash hardthings 10 FM to get 10 free meals plus a free item for life.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

That's why I think Alma is so cool.

Alma connects you with real therapists who who understand your unique experience.

You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

And what stands out to me about ALMA is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard.

You know, I love that.

That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media.

It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress.

Better with people, better with alma.

Visit hello alma.com slash hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today.

That's hello A L M A dot com slash hard things.

What is good conflict?

What does good conflict look like?

And as a second question to discuss in that, do the principles that would apply to good conflict in a relationship, friendship, marriage, be the same as the principles, good people dealing with conflict in a political level or world level?

Are they the same?

So that's an easy one.

For me, they are the same.

And there's, you know, many researchers would disagree with that.

Obviously, when you're dealing with a war or gang violence, or then you are dealing with systems and structures and, you know, but guess who runs systems?

People.

So, like, where we are beginning from, if we are able to stand on solid ground when we're doing peace negotiations or creating policy or deciding how to punish someone, right?

All of those things really matter.

So, they interact.

And I don't think you can separate them.

So, I actually think the most interesting thing is the way all of this, the deep relationship stuff overlays onto politics, onto international diplomacy, onto all of these bigger systems of conflict.

Because for me, it's like, okay, I can, that's an access point.

This matters where we start in our own heads and whether we're on solid ground.

And even though there's a lot we can't control, right?

And everyone around us might be in high conflict.

You know, this morning I was talking to a group of people that we're doing workshops with with good conflict who are literally in a war zone.

And you know what they wanted to talk about?

The conflict with their significant others.

Wow.

Because that's where it's like, it's, it's like your home base, right?

Or, you know, or if you're a kid with your parents or even as an adult, your memories, right?

So

this is really important and informs everything else.

Yes.

And I want to go back to when Glenn and you said, oh my gosh, this takes so much heavy lifting.

Like, how can we expect everyone to do this when it's so hard and takes years and years of work and maybe therapy and other things than not everybody can do, right?

So I want to walk through a few shortcuts to to help all of us get to that place more quickly.

Thank you.

Including you, including me, because I struggle with this too, right?

And I have to be honest, like if my husband hears this, he's going to be like, oh my gosh, you're not telling them that you're a lot like Glennon

in our fights.

Like with strangers, with strangers, I'm pretty good now.

Like I'm pretty, like I can de-escalate pretty quickly.

With friends, I'm pretty good, you know.

With my kid, I'm pretty good most of the time.

But, you know, the closer to home it gets, right?

The closer it gets to that like point of vulnerability, the more dangerous it feels to me.

And Glennon, it feels like it's a life or death, like this person's trying to kill me.

And that is not fair, but it still is.

Right.

And so

the more we can try to interrupt that quickly before it escalates, the better it's going to go.

So let's talk about those cheat sheets.

I would also like to out myself, just for purposes of people listening to this, that if you, I mean, apparently it's a lot of us, okay.

At least on this show.

Right.

But it would be interesting to know like what percentage.

Well, we know most people are conflict avoidant, but you can be conflict avoidant and still have this reaction, right?

Totally.

So anyway, it's all about like, what is the instant thought that goes into your mind, which you don't control, right?

And so that creates the feeling.

And so then we have to like

interrupt that cycle.

Okay.

So a couple of quick things.

First of all, Abby mentioned that you took a pause.

And everybody always says that, oh, take a break.

And I'm always like, really?

Because I want to fight this out to the ground, right?

Because, you know, it's such a strong, like, it's hard to kind of set it aside.

But the best advice I got on this was from John and Julie Gottman, who study marriage conflict.

And they said that you want the break to be at least 30 minutes and you want to do something that occupies your brain differently.

Because I used to like walk around the block, just like ruminating about the conflict and like coming up with like

really cutting, like really cutting.

Wait till he hears this.

Yes.

yes yes that's just that's not a break yeah no he in this case but yeah it's not a break so you know listen to a podcast that's one of the suggestions they gave uh watch a silly tv show like listen to music like literally give your brain a break stare at trees whatever but that is important and so i'm glad that you mentioned that because it's easy like the worst advice anyone ever gave anyone was don't go to sleep angry like terrible really terrible i spent years of my marriage being like wake up.

We have to resolve this at one in the morning.

Terrible.

I mean, we don't have the resources.

Like, that's not a good idea.

So

do go to bed angry if you can possibly fall asleep, but maybe first take a walk or listen to a podcast or do something else.

Do take the pause.

And then there's a couple of things we want to avoid.

Like I call them fire starters, tripwires.

into high conflict.

Okay, so the four fire starters that lead to high conflict that you you want to avoid at all costs if you want to sleep at night and stay in relationship on this earth are humiliation,

conflict entrepreneurs,

corruption, and false binaries.

And now let's go through each one, right?

Yeah, great.

Humiliation.

This is the nuclear bomb of the emotions, as the psychologist Evelyn Lindner says, who studies conflict.

It is the forced and public degradation

of some person or someone in your group, right?

This is a guaranteed way to drive poisonous conflict.

Every

domestic violence, gang violence, war,

much of American politics today is all being fueled by this constantly regenerating supply of humiliation.

Yes.

And you want to be aware of it so that you don't accidentally humiliate someone or that if you do humiliate someone, you're aware of the cost, right?

Or if someone's behaving in a way that doesn't make any sense, you ask yourself, do they feel humiliated?

Even if like for sure they shouldn't?

So Nelson Mandela said, there's no one more dangerous than one who's been humiliated, even when you humiliate him rightly.

Which I love that little add-on.

That is so true.

But so.

That's one to think about, especially on social media.

And I mean, there's just so many ways to humiliate at scale today.

And then the next one is conflict entrepreneurs.

So these are people or companies that exploit conflict for their own ends.

They might do it for profit, but I think even more often it's for a sense of power and a sense that you matter in the world.

You're important.

How would that person show up in a family?

Oh, good question.

Because that.

you know, all of us can point to the Steve Bannons and the, you know, there's people who just make their whole living off.

Or any social media platform, which the algorithm prefers that it looks like more conflict exists to keep you there.

But yeah, right.

I mean, we're now like actively manufacturing conflict entrepreneurs in a way that we, I don't think we always will, but that's what's happening now.

So, but yes, in a family is a great question because that's again a unit we can get our heads around.

Yes.

Right.

So usually a conflict entrepreneur is not just someone who, you know, complains or like is always kind of spoiling for a fight or is like real confrontational.

It's someone who has made like a repeated habit over always seeming to kind of delight in the conflict or turn the knife.

Do you know what I mean?

And sometimes they will be really good at recruiting allies.

So example, every high conflict divorce, there's usually conflict entrepreneurs outside of the couple who are feeding that divorce.

Maybe it's a sister, maybe it's a lawyer.

somebody somewhere.

And so mediators who work on high conflict divorce, one of the first things they do is map the conflict so they can figure out what are all the forces here and where is the conflict entrepreneur.

So you can try to turn down the volume on the conflict entrepreneur if possible.

And if not, manage them very differently.

What does that person look like?

So if you're imagining your family right now and you're like, we just always need to have this conflict.

You might have a conflict entrepreneur on your hands if they are what?

Like

always resharing this, the bad thing that someone said and calling everyone to tell them about it.

If they are like, what do they do?

Yeah, it's constant recurring patterns of blame

and hostility.

So they are always a victim.

Everything is humiliating, right?

They will actually interact with you, like every, they will frame everything as disrespectful or humiliating, or they will feel it that way.

I mean, I don't think they're necessarily lying, but usually the theme is they've got some kind of inner pain that they haven't been willing or able to deal with, and they are spreading it around in a way that is not helpful to anyone in the long term including them but feels protective to them right in the short term um got it okay and i just do want to add that you know we can all be conflict entrepreneurs so as a journalist like i just wake up every day try not to be a conflict entrepreneur it's very incentivized right now And also, some of the people I've learned the most from were once conflict entrepreneurs.

So just because you you were one, like Curtis Toller, who is a former high-ranking gang leader from Chicago, who now interrupts a lot of crazy violent conflict and has taught me a ton about even political conflict, all different kinds of conflict.

He was a conflict entrepreneur by his own telling, right?

And he had a lot of pain that he had not dealt with, but he's not one anymore.

He's a conflict, I guess, interrupter, right?

He's the opposite.

So I just want to add that.

So there's hope for you.

And are those also the people who want to always dredge stuff up?

Like, are they, because do they distract from their own pain by, when you said the word delight, that's what makes me,

sometimes those people are super interesting at first.

Like, are they the people that want to keep the gossip going?

That when you tell them about your partner, they are like, that's fucked up.

They're escalators.

They want to heighten conflict, make you, you leave conversations with them and you feel more upset at everybody than you were when you entered,

right?

Yes.

Like like the person who would come in my office when i worked at time magazine and by the way i loved her in many ways but she would close the door and be like i heard your story got killed is that true

and i'd be like yeah it is true yeah it's a real bummer and then she'd be like

do you think it's because you're a woman

you know and now i do maybe I wasn't thinking about that, but now I am.

And like, she might be right, you know, but it's not helpful to me in that moment, right?

Right.

What's one tip for every single pot squatter right now is thinking, I'm thinking both.

I'm thinking, I know who that is, and I also know I am that person sometimes.

So,

what's the best way to neutralize in a short way

a conflict entrepreneur?

Yes.

So, I'm going to borrow here from there's a place called the High Conflict Institute that offers all kinds of tips and tricks and classes for dealing with really, really difficult people.

So I recommend their website and also their books.

But one of their tricks, Bill Eddy is one of the co-founders and he has this, they use this acronym, you know, like all good kind of businessy books called Biff,

which is brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

So this is how you respond to a conflict entrepreneur, maybe in an email or a text or whatever.

Brief, informative, friendly, and firm.

It's just a way to kind of like, without thinking too much, don't get into the weeds, just try to like validate them by like 10%.

Like, you see them, you see them.

If you can show them some genuine acknowledgement, do that.

But then you get to the brief, informative, that's friendly and firm.

This is interesting.

Like, in a team environment, I have found myself kind of needing to mediate a lot of vent sessions, whether it's about the coach or the decisions or player personnel choices.

And it can get to a point where you're like, all right, like we've now tipped over.

We've now gotten into a position where we're now all thinking that maybe our coach isn't good enough for us.

And then there's interesting moments because the conflict entrepreneurs will show up because they want to keep it going.

They want to keep it rising.

That's where they get their kicks, right?

And so I found myself having to, even though like it's a good moment moment for the team, you do need to have this like tension, like valve release.

And there also needs to be the person who's like, oh, this is now turned negative, extraordinarily negative.

And so it's like this biff is interesting because I've definitely had to be like, all right, you guys, that's enough.

We need to focus on something different.

There needs to be some sort of stopping of the,

you know, and you can sense this, right?

When you're with your friend and you're, you're venting and like she's cheerleading for you.

And she's like, you're so right.

He's so wrong.

And there's a certain point at which you're like,

yeah, I still need to figure out what to do.

You know what I mean?

There's like this invisible line where, yeah, it feels good at first, like a warm bath and it brings everyone together because we have a common enemy.

But then it becomes a little bit like marination, right?

Like you're kind of indulging.

It's actually funny you say that because fans do this too, right?

My friend Alex was just telling me yesterday that she was at a Washington Spirit game, DC's professional soccer team, and she loves going to these games.

I mean, we play soccer together ourselves, and she loves every time there's a game, she's so happy.

And the section she's sitting in, for some reason, the other fans in this section have just this real kind of grievance mentality.

Like they're always feeling like the ref is trying to destroy them and like everything is unfair.

And they're in this kind of loop, feedback loop with each other, right?

It feeds on itself.

And then one of them yelled something, and my friend Alex was so pissed.

And she doesn't know them, right?

So what does she do?

But it's actually ruining her experience of this game.

And so, you know what she did?

It was very biff, actually, now that I think about it.

And she used no words.

She just turned around

and she just looked at him like, huh?

Like, wow, that's, I've never seen that bird in the wild.

That's so good.

Like a full shoulder turn, right?

Yes, I love the full shoulder turn.

London loves to employ.

I employ a lot of full shoulder turns.

But what you're suggesting is a face of curiosity and not condemnation and humiliation, right?

Right.

Because those are two different really tricky, right?

Yes.

But that's beautiful because what that does, especially, I mean, I love that visual of like a crowd of thousands and one person says something and it can't necessarily be attributed to them.

You're sort of like an anonymous person on social media making a comment.

But when someone turns around with the full shoulder and looks in that person's eyes and says, I see you particular person,

you are a human who made that choice.

I am a human seeing you.

You actually just said that to a human.

You're no longer an anonymous throwing a match on a fire.

You're a person who has to take responsibility for what you just said.

That's right.

Right.

Like we are humans in a civilization together and there are norms.

Like that's the unwritten.

subhead of that right full shoulder charge.

Yeah.

Oh my gosh.

But it is really hard because if you turn turn around and we're like, if you kind of gave them a look, like, what the hell?

Right.

Which she, believe me, very much wanted to do and add some language, then it's just going to escalate, right?

And now you're making it easy for them, right?

You're just, yeah, it's like you're asking them, Are you sure?

Yeah, like with your face, like, are you sure this is the choice you want to make?

Yeah, yeah.

What's so weird is that I thought I just heard you say that, yeah, right?

It couldn't be.

How would you like to feel calmer, think clearer, and sleep better, all in just two minutes?

Meet TrueVega Plus, a handheld device that uses gentle vagus nerve stimulation to help calm your body's stress response.

In just two minutes a session, TrueVega helps shift you out of fight or flight and into a more relaxed, balanced state.

By naturally supporting your body's nervous system, you can quiet mental chatter, ease anxious feelings, and promote deeper, more restful sleep.

So you wake up feeling refreshed and clear-headed.

There are no pills, no side effects, just safe, clinically backed technology developed from decades of neuromodulation research.

Ready to try it out?

Visit truevega.com and use code WCDHT25 at checkout to receive $25 off your purchase.

Take action today and upgrade to feeling better every day with TrueVega.

Visit truevega.com and use my code WCDHT25 to receive $25 off your purchase.

Feel calmer and sleep better with TrueVega.

We are supported by Ring.

With Ring, you can be there from anywhere with doorbells and cameras that help you see more, to exciting features that help you know more, to the app that lets you connect more.

See more at the front door, up high and down low.

with battery doorbells head-to-toe video.

Capture it all, all day and all night with 24-7 recording.

And get smarter alerts that know the difference between a person and a package right in the Ring app.

I love my indoor Ring because I get to watch my dogs when we're not at home.

With Ring, you can check in and be there from anywhere.

Some features require a subscription and are available only on select Ring devices.

Exclusions apply.

Learn more at ring.com.

So if my dogs had a credit card, I'm 100%

sure sure that they would use it to order Ollie.

After switching to Ollie, I've never seen them this excited for mealtime.

They drool, they're jumping up and down.

In fact, Hattie is now like getting onto the counter.

She's put her paws onto the counter looking for Ollie.

That's the Ollie effect.

Ollie's fresh turkey with blueberries, this has been our dog's instant favorite.

And the fact that it's made with human-grade ingredients and zero fillers or preservatives, that matters to me.

They're family.

Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food.

Head to ollie.com slash hardthings.

Tell them all about your dog and use code hardthings to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box.

So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.

That's o-l-l-i-e.com/slash hardthings and enter code hardthings to get 60% off your first box.

Getting to those other fire starters.

So, corruption, if you can't trust the referees in society, then you will take matters into your own hands.

And so, that's another tripwire, a fire starter, right, for high conflict.

Can you give me an example of that?

Like, obviously, the referees

because we don't have any

in our world.

So, I'm just trying to understand, like, say theoretically, we didn't believe in the sanctity of our institutions.

What would that look like?

Yeah.

In what distant planet?

Yeah.

So let me take my own profession of journalism, right?

18% of Americans say that they trust newspapers now.

And when I got into the business, it was twice that.

So now Americans are saying they trust journalism way less than they trust the police, way less than they trust the military, way less than they trust large technology companies, the medical system,

and banks.

Okay, this is a big problem.

And I just said this to a group of journalists.

I'm like, look, you can spend all night calling foul and being like, that's not fair.

We are doing our best.

And you're, you know, you're, we've been villainized, right?

And that's some of that's true.

But at the end of the day, if your spouse trusted you less than banks, you have got some work to do and you can stay up all night complaining how you've been misunderstood.

But if you want to stay in a relationship, you've got to rebuild that relationship, right?

Like you've got to really start doing things very differently.

Because

when there's that level of distrust in our society, as we keep seeing, you can't do anything.

You can't solve even the problems that you want to solve.

And so journalism is one example where there's a lot of corruption and perceived corruption.

And together, it just undermines the whole endeavor.

That makes me think:

is it possible that that's why

conflict inside of relationships is also so hard because if you are like most of us who grew up raised by parents who maybe didn't you know all of us had parents who we haven't all had an experience where we looked at marriage and we're like i trust that institution as the vehicle that will help me evolve spiritually and that I will be able to bring my full self to and be safe inside of and that will not swallow me up and kill me dead.

That makes me think that it's the same.

I just started trusting marriage and this relationship, I think, a couple months ago.

I'm serious.

I know.

Do you think that for people who,

if each person actually believed in their relationship or their marriage, this is for me, I can trust this institution, I can trust this setup, you would go into the arena differently than when I don't have a model for this working out to the best and highest of each person's whatever.

it's the same, right?

You don't bring any weapons if you trust it.

That's a good point.

But don't you think that is about,

I think it's about the minute percentage of time we're understood.

And theoretically, the person who's closest to us is supposed to understand us most.

It's inversely related.

The offense.

is so much bigger and the threat is so much bigger.

It's like e2 bruté.

It's like even you.

it's very close to home we live together we love each other and like if you can't understand me

then i am ununderstandable

either i am ununderstandable and can never be loved or you're right one or the other And I can't accept that I can never be understood and never be loved.

So you must be fucked.

That's much more comforting, although also terrifying.

Yes, exactly.

Because would you say it was like 5% of interactions of any human in their life?

5% there.

People feel heard.

That means 95% of the time people don't feel heard.

Right.

So you're getting down to it, which is

people don't trust marriage because it is not trustworthy.

And one of the reasons that it has not been trustworthy is because people aren't being heard or seen.

And the same is true with journalism and politics.

and many other things, right?

So there's a piece of it that's been embellished by conflict entrepreneurs, for sure.

But then also at the root of it, yeah, what you're saying, Amanda, is like,

I don't trust this thing because I should not trust this thing.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, there's some truth there.

And so, I guess, yeah, for both marriage and journalism and politics and all the things, public health, many things.

We have to really work on helping people feel heard and seen and being heard so that

this whole thing doesn't just fall apart.

Which is why, in order to be

until we understand that we can

both understand someone else and hold our core in us,

nothing's ever going to be trustworthy.

No relationship is ever going to be because, at the end of the day, we are always going to choose our core

keeping us safe and keeping our

whatever we think we're protecting versus understanding so that is why like

you're can you take us to like say we're in that conflict and we're feeling the tension we know we're having that axiomatic response of like it's mirror them it's mirror them what can we actually ask i love your like better questions or things like that where we're like i can both believe they are totally wrong and I'm totally right.

And I can try to understand what they're saying.

So you're trying to slow down the conflict.

So maybe you take a break, maybe you don't.

Another thing you can do is looping, which is a tactical listening technique.

And there's others out there, right?

But you're taking what you heard the person say, distilling it into your own language and playing it back and asking if you got it right.

So getting in the habit of doing that all the time, not just when you're in conflict, is really, really helpful to slow down that nervous system response that you're having.

Also, to force yourself to actually listen to the person, right?

So that you're trying to re-engage with that curious part of your brain and prevent that cycle from taking place.

And you're really trying to get them in that moment.

And so the more you can make that a habit and a routine in your relationships, and it does take practice, let me tell you, then the better it's going to go.

Because once people feel heard, their whole posture shifts.

You know, literally their shoulders go down.

I mean, I've seen it happen a hundred times.

Even if you didn't get it right when you tried to play it back in your own language, they're just so grateful someone's trying.

I mean, it's almost heartbreaking.

And often they don't even know themselves.

Like as they're talking and you're playing it back, they're like, oh, you know, and actually, until I'm saying it now, I never realized, but it reminds me of this thing that happened to me 20 years ago, or it really made me feel small, or, you know, whatever.

They're coming up with it because they don't know either.

So they don't even feel hurt by themselves.

That's

great.

That kind of ritual and practice is really, really important.

What is the question we should be asking going into conflict?

What should we be going in?

What should our intention be in?

Yeah, so I think any kind of conflict, whether it's interpersonal or bigger conflict, right?

Or with strangers, try to figure out the understory of the conflict for you and for the other person.

What is this conflict really about?

And it's usually one of just four things.

So, you know, you don't have to spend all day on it.

I mean, it's like one of four, you know, maybe we should create some kind of like card deck or you spin a wheel because it's one of those and sometimes more than one, but it's limited.

And it's respect and recognition, power and control,

care and concern.

This is Abby, like, am I loved?

Am I good?

And stress and overwhelm.

This is why staying up all night fighting is a bad idea, right?

Because often the understory of conflict is many of these things stacked but if people are tired and stressed and overwhelmed and hungry then that itself is the understory of the conflict it's the thing the conflict's really about and we want to figure out what that is we want to figure it out quickly for ourselves and for the other person so that then

we can have the right fight

right it's a fight we need to have because otherwise we're going to have a bunch of nonsense fights with the wrong people at the wrong time which is what we're seeing right think of the wasted suffering and energy and time because we're not having the right fight.

That's really about humiliation, right?

Which is the flip side of respect and recognition, or it's really about, I mean, fear underlies all of them, basically, right?

All the understories.

So can we get to that quickly?

And looping or a listening technique is one way, right?

Also, years of therapy helps, but we don't always have that, right?

So, but can we figure out, and people will give you breadcrumbs, like they will give you clues, but you really have to listen ask different questions as well.

So that for me is, and when I'm at my best, that is what I'm looking for is the understory.

Can you give us an example of that?

Sure.

Like, what would that look like, a typical fight between two people?

And then how would they figure that out?

Like, so two people sitting in a kitchen.

In the book, I talk about a couple that got into a war over who was going to get the crock pot and the divorce.

There's a lot of stories like this, but

because they weren't figuring out what the understory was, but it turned out they'd gotten this crock pot as a wedding gift.

And the wife's childhood was like the crock pot was an important part of it.

Every Sunday, you know, the house would be filled with the smell of a roast or something.

And she had always thought this was the kind of life they would have, but they had never used it even once in real life.

Like they'd never used this crock pot.

It was brand new.

But then why did the husband want it?

Well, the husband wanted it because his wife wanted the divorce.

He didn't even want the divorce.

So by God, he's going to claw back everything he can, right?

So, let's at least argue about that, right?

Because otherwise, we're just going to go endlessly through all the possessions, and this will take years and years and millions of dollars.

But in a smaller way, I know it's cliche, but when I open the dishwasher and it looks like a pack of wolves have thrown their dishes in, it like really pisses me off, right?

And usually, obviously,

everyone has like this conflict pretty much in their family.

And it's like, for my husband and my son, they don't really think about it.

So for them, the understory is nothing, like there's nothing underneath it.

But for me, it's respect and recognition.

Like for me, it feels like, oh, I see this is women's work.

This is beneath you.

So you're just going to like throw this Tupperware in there.

And it's up to me

to like bring order to the chaos because I guess my time doesn't matter.

Yeah, because the reason why they don't think about it is because they know you will and they know you are going to handle it.

I say often, who do you think does it?

When you put something in the sink,

who do you think puts it in the dishwasher?

Well, babe, it's women's work.

Right.

Drives me nuts.

Right.

Oh, God, it's so true because then you just have the wrong fight.

Right.

I mean, I could spend endless time talking about the physics of the machine and how the water goes and like, don't you know?

It's like, okay, that's not going to.

But if they knew, right?

If they knew this is how this lands with me, which of course they would totally disagree with and object on 800 levels, but if you just know that,

it doesn't mean you now agree that it's about respect, but it means like, okay, maybe I'm going to spend an extra eighth of a second putting this in here because for you, this is how that feels, you know?

What I hear you saying is a beautiful thing, which is.

You don't even have to decide as a family or between two people that this is about respect.

Right.

Yes.

What you have to do is accept that this is about respect for mom.

Right.

You don't have to have a shared understanding to respect something.

Exactly.

And the thing that I'm thinking about right now is that it's so vulnerable

for me

to say,

this feels disrespectful to me.

It is so vulnerable, especially being a bonus parent.

You know, like I just am like, I want to be in their good graces all the time and I want them to like me.

And it's harder for me to say this feels really disrespectful to me

about whatever even if it's something other than the dishwasher like it's so hard for me to get vulnerable yeah enough because i'm just like i'll just keep dealing with it i'll just keep being annoyed by it and i think that that's the problem i have being conflict avoidant yeah i think what about if there's a little like sentence starter that we come up with that you use before that when you say something like

this is going to sound ridiculous, I know, and I know it's irrational, but the story I'm telling myself is

that

you don't respect our time or whatever.

You know, you come up with the words that are right to you.

But sometimes the story I'm telling myself can be for me a useful because I'll be like, The story I'm telling myself is that you are out to destroy me, and then they'll be like, I use that all the time,

but like, at least I'm acknowledging this is a story, It's not the only story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

So good.

For me, I think saying it's disrespectful is even more.

You know, even as I said it, it felt too.

That's not it.

Right.

Because that means this, when you do this, you are full of disrespect.

That's not, that is not necessarily the story.

It's more like, I receive this

as disrespect.

And that has to do with a lot of things that are not necessarily about you.

Right.

Or maybe even we don't even use the word respect.

Like maybe it's about care.

You know, it's like,

it feels like you don't, I know you care about us and the house and everybody, you know, chipping in and it feels like you don't when I see that and I'm like, ah, what does it feel like to you?

You know, I don't know.

Maybe there's some other, because yeah, disrespect is a really, it's tough, tough word.

Leave us with one question that we should go into.

One time I heard you say, this changed a lot for me.

I think when I go into a conflict, I tend to think, I have to make sure I'm understood.

That's my goal.

Less helpful, I think,

than

a different question I could be asking, which is, I think I heard you say that we just have to say, go into a conflict with the question of, I'm just going to try to understand this person a little bit more.

I'm not going to try to have world peace.

I'm not going to try to make whatever.

I'm not going to try to be understood, but I'm just going to go in and say, my only goal is try to understand this person a little bit more.

Is that a thing?

That is the gold standard.

Like if you can get there, right?

It's like, and I actually think for journalism too, now, when we train journalists, it's like, look, the goal is, can we help people understand themselves, the other person, or the problem a little better?

And if we can do that, other things will magically follow, right?

It's not the end of the story, but it's the beginning.

And that's what a good mediation session does.

Yeah, exactly.

And I love what you said about not needing to solve it because i think when i go into a conflict and feel like we have got to resolve the policy on dishwashers forevermore right

but instead if i could just be like what are you thinking like when you put that plate there like truly what is going through your mind and you have to say it in such a way like you're genuinely curious which i think is hard sometimes if you're you know so you that's where you have to do the pause but if you could yeah i think glennon that's it is if you could just be like wow i'm gonna try to i'm gonna shift from being a judge and jury to being a detective or an anthropologist, right?

And be like,

what does this boy think is happening with the dish?

Yes.

Because the story thing is just as true in reverse.

You are telling yourself a story, but you're also,

especially if you are like tiptoeing to the dangerous, I'm out of anger and I'm into apathy stage.

You are not only telling yourself a story, you are

attributing a story for sure that the other person has.

And if you're never having that active conflict to figure out if that story is true that you're saying about that person, you're just accepting that that is their story.

That when they put that in, they're like, fuck her.

She's got more time.

This is what she should be doing anyway, whatever.

If you don't interrogate that story,

then that becomes the reality you're living in.

That's right.

And one of the greatest things that's happening to me is finding out that the stories that I was for sure were true, 100% sure

were not.

Isn't that chilling?

It's like astonishing how wrong our stories can be.

I mean, going back real quick to Curtis Toller, the former gang leader who does violence interruption, the Chicago Cred,

he spent years in a vendetta with a rival gang, with the gangster disciples, about a story that wasn't true.

It turned out, just wasn't true.

I mean,

people are dead.

You know what I mean?

Like, this is the fundamental

human flaw is almost these stories.

And what story am I telling myself today that isn't true?

And it's very vulnerable because, like, what you said, Abby, in order to make it about you and not make about the other person, the only true story is like,

I

have a strong need to be respected and I have a strong need to be cared for.

and that is

so vulnerable yeah rather than being like these are the ways you're deficient to say like i need help

because i need to feel respected and i don't

owning your the root caught like the root wound people should keep little index cards in their houses of these four things yes like because it's not like your brain really can do that in the so hard it's too late

It's like you're already hijacked by adrenaline and

self-preservation.

But I think I would like to keep a few little index cards.

Just four possible root causes.

Yeah.

That's a good idea.

I already came up with an acronym, Scrap.

Before you get into a scrap, I love that.

Think about that.

Stress and overwhelm, care and concern, respect and recognition, power and control.

That's really good.

Scrap before you scrap.

So scrappy.

I love that.

And also like little little catchphrases, like my friend John Dickerson, who's a journalist, he and his wife talk about the crock pot all the time.

They just, cause they can shortcut the fight.

They'll be like, okay, what's the crock pot?

This is a crock pot.

This argument over the thermostat is a crock pot.

Like, what are we actually fighting about?

So that you can get more quickly to the understory.

I would also like to just love that.

I just, I know we have to end, but I just would like to know what everybody fights about.

It makes me feel comfortable.

Oh, yeah.

Let's, could we ask people to contribute in the comments?

Like, what, what is the recurring i love that like late being late right when the other person's late yeah what is your crock pot

what is your crock pod like the the actual fight and then right both it's a two-part question both yes i love that okay pod squad you heard it we need to know what is your most frequent high conflict conflict and it can be with anybody it could be with your sister your yeah your person, your whatever.

And then what do you think is the story under it?

And we need to know the details of the fight.

I like the right fight and the wrong fight too.

Like what's the wrong fight you have all the time?

And what's the real fight you actually need to have?

Yes.

That's good.

Because that is a good, you're like, we're fighting all the time.

We're doing great.

But are you fighting?

Are you having a right fight?

Or like the surface.

747-200-5307.

Tell us about your crockbots.

Oh.

Thank you, Amanda Ripley.

You are the best.

I can't wait to see like Christmas morning when you guys get these.

Yeah.

I'm so glad you said that because I was just thinking, like, oh, it's way better if people call it in.

Yes.

Yeah.

So good.

So good.

The Pod Squad never lets us down.

Thank you for having me back.

This is so much fun.

Thank you, Amanda.

And Pod Squad, we love you.

We will hear from you in a minute.

We are quite sure.

All right.

See you soon.

Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.