The One Way to Get the Truth from Someone (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. If you have not go back.

Speaker 3 Fire, liar, pants on fire.

Speaker 2 Yes, everyone's pants are on fire. Go back and listen to episode number 242, where we're talking about lying and truth and what the hell is lying and why are we all liars.

Speaker 2 And we're talking to you about what our particular lying style is

Speaker 2 in hopes that you might figure out what your particular lying style is so that you can have more compassion for yourself.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And understand yourself.

Speaker 3 And we're going to end it with hot take about the only way that they've identified for how to prevent people from lying to you. Oh,

Speaker 1 wait for it.

Speaker 3 It's a good one.

Speaker 1 Oh, I don't know that thing.

Speaker 2 And also I'm thinking, why would you want that thing?

Speaker 3 Well, this is why you have to use it carefully.

Speaker 2 Why would you want no one to lie to you? That feels so scary to me.

Speaker 3 No, no, no, not no one to lie to you. If there's a particular person and context where you don't want someone to lie to you about something.
Okay, great.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Ooh, that's so exciting.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 We, in the last episode, Abby identified her lying language as bullshitter.

Speaker 2 Bullshitter. Like just someone who makes shit up.

Speaker 2 Briefly, how would you describe it, babe?

Speaker 1 In my need to want to seem smarter than I am, to know more than I do. Everything that comes out of my mouth sometimes is not fact-driven.
Okay, it's puffery.

Speaker 3 And that makes total sense that you came from the soccer world. If people had to be like, You think you're going to win this game?

Speaker 3 Of course, you had to be like, Hell yeah, we're going to win this game. We're going to, we're amazing.
And I feel fully confident, even though you're like, We're likely going to lose this match.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like, yeah, that had to.
We never really thought we were going to lose any match. First of all, second of all, there are some times in my family's life that my

Speaker 1 belief without fact

Speaker 1 is really good. I do know that.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. She believes with no evidence.
It's reckless. It's beautiful.

Speaker 2 Your bullshitting ways can be very, very beautiful and helpful.

Speaker 1 Also,

Speaker 1 her next book.

Speaker 3 The beautiful bullshitter.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And what I would say about bullshitters is

Speaker 2 You know, I've had a few experiences where Abby's been out of town and someone's visited me in my home

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 what i want you to know is that it's the worst thing that could ever happen oh we just sit there no one talks no one says anything i don't know what to do i don't know what to say i don't know what i'm supposed to be doing there's so many beautiful things about the bullshitters but one is that they're entertaining and they bring everyone together and shoot the shit shoot the whatever shooting the is it's helpful okay for other people to do so i'm gonna need some help figuring this out i'm gonna do my best description of what Abby and I have figured out my lying language is.

Speaker 2 I'm calling it a puppeteer.

Speaker 2 What my kind of lying is, is

Speaker 2 constantly believing that there is a way

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 2 present a fact or information

Speaker 2 that is the right way, that will make everyone who's listening to it feel a certain way,

Speaker 2 that is the fact is is released in the most favorable light to everyone that believes that

Speaker 2 there should be a filter on every sentence that comes out of every mouth that is considering

Speaker 2 the effect of the thing that they're saying on everyone. So beautiful.
So, well, that's sweet.

Speaker 1 I mean, it is. It is so beautiful and also

Speaker 2 exhausting for everyone.

Speaker 1 Well, for you, it's got to be really.

Speaker 3 I'm exhausted just listening to you say what you just said.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
So we're trying to think of examples, which by the way, is like every day but we were thinking of one that you were involved with because that would be fun for you so

Speaker 2 before your birthday this is like a crossing of both of our lie languages this one story which is why we thought it would be fun to share so

Speaker 2 uh we gave you a gold chain

Speaker 2 oh god yeah a gold necklace we gave you a gold necklace so beautiful Yes.

Speaker 2 And we were, Abby and I were in bed because that is, of course, where most of our students are.

Speaker 3 Because it was 8:04. Right, right.

Speaker 2 And you were at the foot of our bed. We gave you the necklace and you opened it and said, It's so beautiful.
And then Abby said, I found it on the thing. I was looking through the thing.
I ordered it.

Speaker 2 I, whatever, I got that for you. I thought that you would like it.

Speaker 1 I, whatever, whatever. Okay.

Speaker 1 And then,

Speaker 2 and then you said, Abby, I love it. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 And then you left.

Speaker 2 And then I was quiet.

Speaker 2 I was quiet at Abby.

Speaker 3 You were quiet in her direction.

Speaker 2 Yes. I was extremely quiet aggressively.

Speaker 2 And Abby always knows right away. Like, you know, so she knew what happened, but she pretended like she didn't know what happened.

Speaker 1 So she was saying, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong?

Speaker 3 You're like, what's wrong?

Speaker 1 Please don't say what's wrong. What's wrong? I really want to know.
I definitely don't want to talk about this.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 So here is what I would say about it. It is true.

Speaker 2 It was true that Abby found that necklace.

Speaker 2 It is also true that we discussed what we were going to get, that I had three things on my list that day, that she had three things on her list that day, that order the necklace was on her list.

Speaker 2 That it is true that she ordered the necklace. It is also true that it is a deeper truth that in our marriage, we energetically do things together.

Speaker 3 It's like communal property,

Speaker 3 Communal duties, communal gift.

Speaker 2 Right. Like, for example, on Christmas morning, every time my kid opens a present and all the adults around, I'm not like, hey, kid, I ordered that.
I sent it.

Speaker 2 I would, right?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So.

Speaker 3 CNL, Santa. I read all of this.

Speaker 2 Right. So this is a crossing.
of our lie languages because Abby is important for everyone to know what she's done in that moment. It is important for me to control the narrative.

Speaker 2 I am always trying to control the narrative. So, very recently, we're going to the mall.
One of my kids has asked to get something.

Speaker 2 The other kid has asked to get something. Abby and I have agreed that it's more important that this other kid gets this thing that trip.

Speaker 2 Abby will look at the first kid and say, We're not going to the mall for your shit.

Speaker 1 We're going for hers.

Speaker 2 I might die inside at that moment. That is true.

Speaker 2 I might say,

Speaker 2 we are going to the mall for two different reasons that are equally important. I am constantly wanting to present information

Speaker 2 in a way

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 makes everyone feel a certain way. And so everything that everyone says.
feels like a minefield to me.

Speaker 2 I'm constantly going behind people, changing what they just said. So, this person hears it a certain way, changing what you said, changing how you said it, why you said it, when you said it.

Speaker 2 Why'd we have to say that right now? Why isn't that a truth we held back? Why didn't we wait till next month to say it? It's like a God complex or something. It's a fear of letting things just be.

Speaker 2 It's the reason why, if you relate to the Taylor Swift mastermind song, it just that made me feel so seen. It's like this idea that

Speaker 2 there is a way to control the truth

Speaker 2 that will

Speaker 3 take the edge off.

Speaker 2 That'll take the edge off. That will make, I think sometimes it's selfish.
It's like

Speaker 2 what will make me look the best.

Speaker 2 Yes, that is true. That's the reason why I did that.
But it's also true that I did it for this other reason. So, can we focus on this other reason? Because

Speaker 3 I see what you're saying now. I see what you're saying now.

Speaker 2 Okay, so like truth,

Speaker 3 raw truth,

Speaker 3 is

Speaker 3 not fit for human consumption. We need to take the truth and filter it through the light most favorable.
And on the other side, now it's a consumable. So

Speaker 3 this is why you feel the need to put your fingers on and touch and edit things.

Speaker 3 that are happening because you can keep the truth but make it come out in a way that you feel like reflects you better or impacts others better.

Speaker 2 Yes. And so what I think is interesting about that puppeteer way, I think a lot of that has to do with parenting for me.
Like I'm thinking about everyone.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking about everyone's feelings, but I am also always thinking about the way the kids are seeing me as their mom, as their parent.

Speaker 2 So I'm also filtering it for the way that it's going to, you know, make me

Speaker 2 feel like a good mom or like a good ex-wife or like a good new wife or like a good mom or a good writer or whatever. So

Speaker 2 what I think is interesting about this control freak in quotes puppeteer kind of lying, which is like controlling and manipulating and filtering the truth, is that I think whereas Abby's core fear is like, am I good enough?

Speaker 2 Mine is, am I good?

Speaker 2 Mine has always been like, if people saw the complete, full, unfiltered,

Speaker 2 that would not be good.

Speaker 3 I understand what you're saying right now. So you're like the comms director of the truth.

Speaker 3 You're like, I

Speaker 3 am going to present the truth, but it's too unruly just to have the truth out there. Like, we can't come or we're going to the mall for her, not you.

Speaker 3 Because that is too subject to interpretation that might reflect in a way that you haven't controlled. Whereas if you can take the truth and leave no room for interpretation

Speaker 3 as to how it is presented, then you can feel calm because you'll know the way everyone is receiving that.

Speaker 3 You can't just leave it up to everyone else to interpret what happens because that is too scary.

Speaker 2 Right. I'm just making it more beautiful.
What is the truest, most beautiful version of this moment? It's my version, right? So the PR, the comms.

Speaker 2 uh the truth's communication truths public relations yeah that's it but i do think in the bot at at the bottom of that is trust.

Speaker 2 Am I always willing to let everything be and that it'll be okay? No.

Speaker 2 And am I good?

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know that. So I'm just going to like shade everything up.

Speaker 3 I actually get that, that, that comms piece. I think I get that.
And sometimes why it's so jarring to me if John will just send a text. Someone will say, like, can you all come over? Can

Speaker 3 one of the kids go over? And he'll just be like,

Speaker 3 No, we can't. And I'm like, well, that was reckless as shit.

Speaker 3 Like, you have to give the context of how the, and I think it's this fear that like everyone's out there just waiting to decide that you're an asshole or something.

Speaker 3 But if we just trusted that people are going to receive that information in a favorable way towards us,

Speaker 3 I don't, and I would say a more calm way to live.

Speaker 2 And I don't do it as much with other people. I would say I do it incessantly and exhaustingly with my family.

Speaker 2 Like sometimes when the kids leave and they're not here or one of the one goes back to college or whatever, I feel like I can breathe

Speaker 2 in a way that I don't sometimes when they're present because I'm constantly trying to make control everyone's perceptions of everything.

Speaker 3 So is do you think that that was like that pre-divorce or do you think that this is like you feel, I'm wondering if it's you feel so

Speaker 3 fearful at a deep level that they'll be like,

Speaker 3 you messed things up for the family by getting divorced so you need to prove everything's good like i'm surprised to hear you say that actually because you seem so

Speaker 3 comfortable and at ease with your family i didn't know that you were so worried about how they would interpret things i do worry that's

Speaker 1 don't you think that that's true yeah i mean i i can't speak for before i came but i've heard you tell stories and i also think it's kind of confusing because parenting

Speaker 1 is a really big art of manipulation.

Speaker 1 Like it's you're thinking about

Speaker 1 so much of what everybody's experiencing. And I think that at the heart of it, it's so good

Speaker 1 because you want our children to all have a voice and to all think that they're, that they have been filtered before you say something or before you are doing something.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's harder for people to understand who have young kids. Like, I think when your kids get older,

Speaker 2 it's it's like you start to see them seeing you.

Speaker 2 They go away, they meet other families, they have their own takes on things, and you start to see them

Speaker 2 in a way where they're seeing you for like the person you are. They're not seeing you as an all-knowing

Speaker 1 God.

Speaker 2 They're seeing you now as like a person who made decisions, who lived a certain way, who makes choices, who is like a certain way about money and faith and relationships and friendships.

Speaker 2 And so you're seeing yourself through their eyes for the first time. And part of the filter is trying to explain myself.
Interesting. Trying to like

Speaker 2 through every interaction

Speaker 2 explain myself. And it's being this age and looking at your parents and like, you're stuck in the middle.
I'm judging my parents. I'm looking backwards and judging them.
And then I'm looking forwards.

Speaker 2 I'm looking at my kids judging me. Or so I think it's just very do you think that their job.

Speaker 2 I think that's their job.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 That's their job is to like look at us and figure out what they want to keep and what they don't want to keep.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I feel like with every truth I'm trying to filter, I'm saying like, I did a really good job. Like I did, I did the best I could.
I'm. the best version of a person I know how to be or I can be.

Speaker 2 And I made all these decisions for that. I feel like that's what I'm constantly doing.
And I would like to.

Speaker 1 So you have to show your work.

Speaker 3 You're showing your work so that if they decide you got the answer wrong, they can at least go back and see, oh, this is how these are all the steps you see. And I see the justification.

Speaker 3 And I see, it's like when a teacher's like, show your work, show your work. That's what you're doing constantly in your head is putting that

Speaker 2 making it. It does not feel relaxing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I was just going to say, you just said that you don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 2 No, I don't. I think having a kid home from college really, really, it's not, it has nothing to do with the kid.
Like they're not doing anything. They're just like standing there.

Speaker 2 And I'm constantly trying to,

Speaker 2 I don't know what I'm trying to do, but I

Speaker 2 would like to

Speaker 2 just relax and be myself and let everything be and not be constantly energetically justifying or explaining or filtering.

Speaker 2 not thinking I have to present some correct version of motherhood or parenting. I'm sure it's not relaxing to them.

Speaker 1 Do you think that this is like your attempt of, especially as they get older, of creating an environment where they would want to come back to?

Speaker 1 Is this like biological, like this urge to build the stability of a fortress of a family that they want to be a part of? Because they have to now opt into our family.

Speaker 2 I think that what it is, is like it's transferring this idea that someone's going to pat me on the head and say, good job.

Speaker 2 You did it right. You did it well.
It's like, okay, I don't do that with whatever God is anymore. So now I do it with the kids.

Speaker 1 Huh.

Speaker 2 Like, the kids are God and they decide. This could be totally wrong.
I'm just thinking of it right now, but I do think I have transferred that locus

Speaker 2 of you get to decide whether I

Speaker 2 am good or worthy from this idea of a God in the sky to like the kids.

Speaker 2 Their opinions and they get to decide.

Speaker 1 They'll justify.

Speaker 2 Yeah, which is totally

Speaker 2 insane.

Speaker 2 But that is what I think.

Speaker 2 I mean, I'm not fucking suggesting this to anyone.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I'm not advocating for this approach. No, and I'm just telling you what's happening.

Speaker 2 No, and I did not expect to talk about that. But I do think in the particular ways of,

Speaker 2 okay, when you give to someone else the power of approving of of you or not, you will lie your ass off or filter your ass off or control your ass off to get approval from that person, whether or not that person's asked you.

Speaker 2 And that can make a liar of you.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 1 I bet a lot of people listening will relate to what you just said. Or they've turned it off.
No. Because it's so confusing.
No, I don't think it's confusing at all.

Speaker 1 I think that it makes perfect sense. And I also think like.

Speaker 1 It's a super vulnerable thing to say out loud, right? Cause like all of us want the approval of our kids.

Speaker 1 All of us want to feel like we're good at parenting, and all of us want to feel like this whole sacrifice that you've just made to raise three children was worth it.

Speaker 1 And what will it be that you feel like will have been like, oh, now I know that I've done it, I've done it right. What will it be? Yeah, it's nothing.
One good question. There's nothing.

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Speaker 2 Okay, sister, have you thought about what your lying style is?

Speaker 2 So we have we have Abby the bullshitter, we have me the puppeteer or the uh truth PR person, mastermind, the mastermind.

Speaker 1 I call that the master

Speaker 3 person because you're a truth spin doctor.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 1 that's good.

Speaker 3 Um, I don't have a word for mine yet. Okay, all I know is that my friend

Speaker 3 recently

Speaker 3 we had some drama going on and she was like, how am I going to deal with this?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 3 I just show everything on my face. Like when I see this person, I'm not going to be able to fake it.
And they're going to know exactly what's going on.

Speaker 3 And I was like,

Speaker 3 wow, I am the opposite of that.

Speaker 3 It alarms me and scares me how much I am able

Speaker 3 to not show on my face

Speaker 3 exactly how I feel.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 3 that I feel like, I don't know what kind of lying that is, but

Speaker 3 I kind of admire and I'm jealous of people who have the kind of integrity of their insides with their outsides, who if they don't like someone, it shows on their face.

Speaker 3 Or if they're offended or hurt or in conflict

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 it shows on the outside as much on the inside because i could go a lifetime and not show it wow it's like the masked the hiding

Speaker 3 armor yeah an actor kind of yeah maybe i don't know that it made me feel like a real faker baker because

Speaker 3 that's cool that you don't have that.

Speaker 2 Can you give us an example?

Speaker 3 If I receive information

Speaker 3 about someone or something,

Speaker 3 I have a very intellectual approach to it. I'll be like, let me process

Speaker 3 that deceit or let me process that betrayal or let me process this new information that I know about you

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 make it make sense in my head. head and then with that let me know

Speaker 3 what i need to know

Speaker 3 about how our relationship needs to be in the future

Speaker 3 but you don't necessarily need to know that

Speaker 3 i need to know it

Speaker 3 and what i put out to you the access that i give you

Speaker 3 the information that I give you about myself

Speaker 3 might totally change and you might never notice it. You might never notice that we're having a different relationship than we had before, but to me,

Speaker 3 I know it's a different relationship.

Speaker 2 This is so interesting. So it must drive you crazy that I want to say how I feel all the time.
This makes me think of when I'm mad at somebody in our work life and you're like,

Speaker 2 yes, and we will handle that, but it may not be wise for you to share that you're angry with that person right now.

Speaker 2 That's what you're doing. You're, yeah, you're like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
We'll get them in the end.

Speaker 2 But,

Speaker 2 okay, that's fascinating.

Speaker 2 This reminds me of your threeness with the Enneagram.

Speaker 2 You're not feeling it, you're intellectualizing it and planning it, but you're not necessarily getting to the feeling phase or sharing. So, is it about control?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 Because this is asinine to me. This whole way that people do they like, that's when I'm always like shrewd like a fox, shrewd like a fox.

Speaker 2 I know you always say shrewd like a fox.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, fuck.

Speaker 3 Because it's like, you know, T. Swift, never be so kind.
You forget to be clever. Never be so clever.
You forget to be kind. Okay.
So that person has betrayed me. That person is untrustworthy.

Speaker 3 That I don't trust that person as far as I can throw them. Let me go share with them about that wait what the

Speaker 3 you just said that person is not trustworthy but you're going to go give your insides

Speaker 2 to that person yeah for them to do whatever with i actually don't follow the logic okay so that feels adaptive to me that's good when you have decided someone is completely untrustworthy you are of course not going to open yourself back up you're going to find another way forward when does that approach become maladaptive

Speaker 3 when you try to work every relationship out

Speaker 3 inside of yourself? Yes.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Because what you're missing out on sometimes.

Speaker 2 Like I would say for me, I get myself into situations where I shouldn't have said anything and it's fucking disastrous.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 But what you miss sometimes is the moment where you say, wait, I'm that hurt my, it's not somebody who is evil. It's not somebody who is, should be cut off for the rest of the life.

Speaker 2 But part of relationship

Speaker 2 and the reason for integrity is not, you, I think you think that being in the moment or being integrated is stupid.

Speaker 2 But it's not always just stupid. It's because sometimes you say something and there's a magical moment where the other person actually is meeting you there.

Speaker 2 And then your relationship becomes something bigger than the sum of its parts.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But you're keeping it the magic all the time in the sum of the parts because there's no mixing the oil and the water.
It's like we are in relationship.

Speaker 2 And that means I handle my business and you handle your business.

Speaker 2 And I'll see you in hell.

Speaker 3 I mean, sometimes it's not even the sum of the parts.

Speaker 2 Sometimes it's just me

Speaker 1 plus what I think about that person in my heart.

Speaker 2 Do you have anybody that you're completely honest with that you feel vulnerable, that you feel like you can do this thing and not figure it out?

Speaker 3 I have like,

Speaker 3 I do, and I have people that I will never tell a lie to ever, little or big.

Speaker 3 I do, definitely.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 3 I do try to over-intellectualize and figure out what's going on and figure out if I have a right to feel the thing and figure out whether that's reasonable and figure out instead of just being like, this is

Speaker 3 the way I feel.

Speaker 1 Is it a fear of vulnerable?

Speaker 3 What are we able to do about that?

Speaker 1 Is it like the base of it, like the bottom of it? It's like a fear of actually being vulnerable.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what's the base? The core.

Speaker 3 I think it is. And then I think it's also like

Speaker 3 I have a a huge fear of being

Speaker 3 a burden or not handling my shit,

Speaker 3 taking up too much space in the sense of like

Speaker 3 I only

Speaker 3 go to others if I can't handle it

Speaker 3 in all aspects, right? So, make sure you've exhausted your internal resources before you go to anyone for like either help or support or or working things out.

Speaker 3 And so by default, I think I

Speaker 3 handle a lot internally.

Speaker 3 And it's like that saying, if you only say what you know, you're only going to know what you know. Like I

Speaker 3 think that cuts me off from information. It cuts me off from different ways of seeing things.

Speaker 3 It cuts me off from, you know, what you're saying about the synergies of you come out with a different output when you add a different input in.

Speaker 1 But I have a general aversion when people can't handle their shit well and i also yeah i think that the world too is like

Speaker 1 one of the big complaints about women is that we're too much and we're too emotional and like any of those feminine tropes

Speaker 1 especially around this is probably even more aversive to you. You're like, fuck that.
I'm going to prove that I can do it differently.

Speaker 1 I think that you're actually one of the most audaciously capable people I've ever met. And so that's got to be a double-edged sword there because you're like, I can do a lot.

Speaker 3 But in the context of lying, it's like,

Speaker 3 I have all the information I need. I have come to my conclusion.
You're out, but I'm also not going to let you in enough to know you're out.

Speaker 2 Oh, so it's a fake.

Speaker 3 So I can fake it till the end of time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because I guess a different way to be that, if you were going to do it honestly, would be, you've broken my trust

Speaker 2 and I'm not going to do this the same way.

Speaker 3 Totally. So you don't.
And that would actually be like

Speaker 3 full of integrity. And if we think back to Janelle's at the last lying episode we did where Janelle was like, I lie to set a boundary.
That's why I was like, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 There's no lying to set a boundary. You either lie to get an outcome you need.

Speaker 3 Or you set a boundary, but you don't lie to set a boundary.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 So I would have more respect for myself

Speaker 3 if I couldn't lie with my face.

Speaker 3 It's like Lova used to say to you on stage, if you didn't like whatever speaker was going on, and she'd say, fix your face, because you, Glennon, show what you're thinking on your face.

Speaker 1 I know. I do not.

Speaker 3 So I admire that in people whose whole being represents how they feel.

Speaker 3 So I think I would have more respect for myself if I, if I would be like, you know what?

Speaker 3 Love you. You're awesome.
And also this is different now. And I can tell you why or not, but I just wanted to explain that this is where I am and Godspeed.

Speaker 1 Cool. But I don't.

Speaker 2 I get it. Nailed it.
I don't know if it's good or bad. I'm just saying you identified a particular way of lying that I'm sure a lot of people

Speaker 2 will relate to. Fake it until you make it.
Yeah. And I understand now.
Like I understand when you're like, when I email you and I'm like, I'm so upset about this thing.

Speaker 2 And you will be like, okay, let's not say that right now. I hear you, but let's not like email them.
That

Speaker 2 makes sense.

Speaker 3 To me, it feels like it's like passing ammo to your enemies. I've just determined you're an enemy.
Can I arm you?

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 And also, but I do want to suggest that it is deep embedded into us.

Speaker 2 you and me, sister, that the world is made up of very few friends, actually, who are all on this Zoom or our two producers who are friends.

Speaker 2 And then everyone else is an enemy.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 So, even that like framework is an interesting.

Speaker 1 Nobody can be trusted from your perspective. You have to control even what people think about us because they cannot be distrusted.

Speaker 1 And sister is worrying about arming anybody with anything that they can use against her.

Speaker 2 Because everyone's trying to kill us.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Here's what we're going to do. Pod squad, good luck figuring out what your lying style is.
We want to know about it. Yes.
And here's what I want to challenge you two to do. We have

Speaker 2 some, I think they're not Collins. We're reading these, right?

Speaker 3 Yes. And they're so funny.
I can't. Okay.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 But first, I want to tell the people, I promised to tell them.

Speaker 1 Oh, yes. I'm sorry.
Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So here, there's all of these things. Everyone thinks they can tell when someone's lying to them.
First of all, polygraphs are not

Speaker 1 admissible in court. They're not admissible in court.

Speaker 3 They're not reliable. Humans can only tell if someone is lying half the time.
So great. So just go ahead and guess because that's as good as what you think that you've figured out.

Speaker 3 All the things of like, oh, if they look up and to the left, that's telling they're lying. No, that's also associated with thinking.
So someone might be lying or they might be thinking. So stop.

Speaker 3 You can just let yourself off the hook for trying to guess if people are lying to you.

Speaker 3 The only way that they have determined that increases your chance of getting people to tell the truth, and it's so simple, It goes back to what we were talking about in the first episode:

Speaker 3 if you ask people directly to tell you the truth, and this goes back to my theory at the beginning: that there is no social contract that people will be telling the truth.

Speaker 3 You actually have to say, I want the truth from you. So, if you really need to know something, say to people this:

Speaker 3 I want you to say to me,

Speaker 3 I promise I will tell you the truth.

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 3 they say,

Speaker 3 I promise I will tell you the truth.

Speaker 3 And then they say whatever they're going to say. Having this verbal commitment that they say, they have to repeat it back to you.

Speaker 3 There is something in our makeup that when I say with my mouth, I am going to tell you the truth, it decreases lies by 40%. Wow.
Some people are still going to lie, but

Speaker 3 I think it goes back to what we were saying in the first episode, which is that nobody knows if you want the truth from them. We're all the time with all these socially acceptable quote unquote lies.

Speaker 3 So you're telling someone that you want the truth from them, and then you're asking them to commit to that.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 a lot of people won't say that unless they're willing to tell you the truth. Or they might be like, okay, they want it.
I will tell it to them. It's almost like

Speaker 3 you are creating your own social contract in that situation that doesn't exist outside of that.

Speaker 2 So when you were talking about that, I wanted to be like, that can't be right. But actually, I'm thinking about

Speaker 2 when

Speaker 2 Craig finally told me about the infidelity and we were sitting in a therapist's office and we'd been through four to five freaking sessions of therapy with us not telling each other the truth.

Speaker 2 And then something came up. And the air was charged.
And I just understood and knew in the moment that there was something that neither the therapist nor he was telling me.

Speaker 2 And I actually did look at Craig and said, I'm going to go to the bathroom and I'm going to come back here. And you are going to tell me every bit of the truth.

Speaker 2 And he didn't say it back to me, but

Speaker 2 that worked. That's when I got the whole truth.
That's weird.

Speaker 3 And it works in any little thing, you know, when people are like, oh, how did the kids do at the play date?

Speaker 3 They actually don't want to know half the time that they were fighting the whole time and their daughter was a brat and their son spilled the stuff everywhere and they were cussing the whole time.

Speaker 3 They don't want to know that. They want to be like, what's great?

Speaker 2 See you next time.

Speaker 3 But if someone says, no, I actually want to know the truth about this because I'm working on something. So tell me the truth.
Then great. Now I know you want to know the truth.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or like if you call your friend, they're like, what are you doing? And you're like, I'm going to go get my bang.
I'm going to go get bangs cut.

Speaker 1 And they're going to be like, okay.

Speaker 2 Or if you say, I'm going to go get bangs cut, I want you to tell me the truth about that. They're going to say, do not cut your bangs.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 It is a different thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it is. And it seems so simple, but it's very not simple.

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Speaker 2 We're We're going to read a bunch of lies that love bugs around the world have told. We are going to judge these lies, okay?

Speaker 2 Whether this is a green lie or a red lie, because we're not going with white lies. You two are going to decide whether these are green lies or red lies.

Speaker 1 Okay. All right.

Speaker 2 Here we go. Lie number one.
A girl I lived with two years ago thought I was stealing her yogurt out of the fridge. I told her it couldn't have been me since I'm allergic to dairy.

Speaker 2 And now I still can't eat dairy in front of her or anyone from that friend group. She made me a dairy fee-free cake for my birthday, and the guilt is eating me alive.

Speaker 1 So good.

Speaker 2 I think you go straight to the grave with the dairy situation.

Speaker 1 This is a green lie for me.

Speaker 1 You just don't,

Speaker 1 you don't ever tell her.

Speaker 3 No, you can't tell her. It's gone.

Speaker 3 That reminds me of the

Speaker 3 amazing thing where people are more likely to lie

Speaker 3 to prevent you from thinking that they are lying. That is one of the top lies that they find.

Speaker 3 So it's like you, Glennon, when you're checking out at the grocery and the lady says, what kind of avocados are those?

Speaker 3 And you tell her they're organic, even though they're not organic, because you're so afraid that if you tell her they're not organic, she's going to think you're lying to get them for cheaper.

Speaker 3 So you just tell them they're organic.

Speaker 2 I do that all the time. I lie so people will know that I'm honest.

Speaker 3 That is one of the most common lies. And that's what this girl, she was so afraid to look like a lying thief that she lied and said that she was lactose intolerant.

Speaker 3 So she couldn't have possibly been the lying thief that stole your yogurt.

Speaker 1 And I love her for it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 In college, I legally married and then peacefully divorced a platonic friend. So we qualified to live off campus.

Speaker 2 I want to call this lie a justice-based lie. I believe in this sort of lie.
This is not right that marriage is the only kind of relationship deemed worthy enough to get special treatment.

Speaker 2 So I believe in this lie. I think we should have more rights for platonic relationships.
Yes to this lie.

Speaker 1 That was from Alex Harrow on Twitter.

Speaker 3 This one is from M. Lockwood Porter on Twitter.
My best friend and I wanted to go to a Blink 182 concert in high school, but we couldn't afford tickets.

Speaker 3 So we told everyone in our extremely Baptist Oklahoma town that God called us to spread the gospel at an evil secular concert, but we needed donations to get in. We turned a prophet.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That is

Speaker 3 a first class,

Speaker 3 brilliant. Good job, M.
Lockwood Porter. Brilliant.

Speaker 1 Well done.

Speaker 2 This one is from Ken.

Speaker 2 My daughter Bryony had a show and tell day at school, which involved standing in front of the class and explaining all about their chosen subject.

Speaker 2 Unfortunately for me, she had told her pals that she was doing it about her father's expedition to the Galapagos Islands and begged me to do the presentation with her.

Speaker 2 So not only did I have the shame of having a lying fantasist for a child, but I also had to pretend to be a wildlife conservationist in front of 25 children. I actually work in IT.

Speaker 1 I love this father.

Speaker 2 I love Bryony. She's probably going to be some sort of writer.
That is a big green lie for me. So good.
Good job, Dodd.

Speaker 1 So I love that.

Speaker 3 So they went and planned together their presentation.

Speaker 3 So Ken's like, so then I'll show him the pictures. of the huge ass turtles or whatever.
And Bryony is like, yeah, that'll be good. That'll be good.
Then we'll go to the next slide.

Speaker 3 Imagine the teacher's like, I know Ken works at Microsoft. It's weird that he went on a Galapagos expedition.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 3 I was told that every person gets 10,000 words per month. If you reached the limit, you couldn't physically speak until a new month began.

Speaker 3 All my dad had to say was, oh, careful. You're already at 9,000 words.

Speaker 2 And it would shut me right up.

Speaker 1 That's so good.

Speaker 1 I have no notes.

Speaker 1 So good. I have no notes.

Speaker 2 This one's brilliant. I tell my son that when he lies, a red dot appears on his forehead that only his parents can see.
It only goes away when he tells the truth.

Speaker 1 Can we talk about the levels of parenting in this?

Speaker 2 So this parent, in order to teach their child not to lie,

Speaker 2 is blatantly lying

Speaker 1 to them.

Speaker 2 That is some good stuff.

Speaker 3 That's really good. This one is Dominique Maddie.

Speaker 3 One time for my own entertainment, I pretended to not know what a donut was when my ex-boyfriend's friend mentioned wanting one. Every time he tried to explain it, I said, oh, you mean a bagel?

Speaker 2 We haven't even talked about lying just for fun.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 Lying just for for fun. I give a big green light too.

Speaker 1 I like to do that.

Speaker 2 Oh, you mean a bagel. Imagine this person just losing their shit so frustrated.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So good. Okay.

Speaker 2 Go ahead, baby.

Speaker 1 I recently told my son his soccer game was canceled due to the snow. Oh, yeah, this is good.
In all fairness, it was his third game of the weekend.

Speaker 1 I knew the team had plenty of subs and it was flurrying. Oh, my son is only seven.
Enough is enough sometimes. I adhere to this fully.

Speaker 2 Big green light. Big green light.
Soccer is never ending and it's too much and you really have to take it into your own hands. Yeah.

Speaker 3 When they say soccer is life, they mean literally that's your life now.

Speaker 1 That's exactly

Speaker 3 his life.

Speaker 1 That was Aaron R.

Speaker 2 Okay. At work, for whatever reason, when I first started, I told a girl I was married.
I was never married. It got so out of hand that I actually bought a fake wedding ring.

Speaker 1 The whole hospital thinks I'm a husband.

Speaker 2 I've had friends call in pretending they're my wife. It's so crazy out of of hand now that I think I would be fired if the truth came out.

Speaker 1 That's so good.

Speaker 1 That was posted by Anonymous.

Speaker 2 I know how that feels. That's like when I told the school that Madonna was my aunt.
It can go on for a really long time. I still feel extra close to Madonna.

Speaker 3 My upstairs neighbor called me Mark in a conversation, but since that is not my name, I didn't realize she was actually referring to me, so I didn't correct her.

Speaker 3 The second time she called me Mark, it was from a distance as she was leaving her apartment and I was getting in.

Speaker 3 I registered that she thought my name was Mark, but I felt it would be weird to shout back that my name is not Mark.

Speaker 3 The third time she did this, I had a bunch of friends over on the stoop outside the apartment, and I didn't want to correct her in front of her group of kids because I didn't want to embarrass her.

Speaker 3 All of my friends looked confused that she was calling me Mark, but after she went inside, I explained to them that I was too deep into it now to correct her.

Speaker 3 They disagreed since she had only done it three times at that point. That was seven years ago.
I am Mark.

Speaker 2 Oh my God. Can we talk about lying because you're sweet? That's sweet.
It's like so, so much of lying is just being sweet. You don't want to like hurt the other, make the other person feel stupid.

Speaker 2 So you just are like, I would prefer instead of hurting someone's feelings to be Mark for the rest of my life.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but then see Vanessa episodes. That's how you end up three years into a relationship, still pretending to get an orgasm at the same shit that didn't work three years ago because you're Mark now.

Speaker 3 Okay. You're trying to be sweet.
You get yourself into a situation.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it's not a a slippery slope.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 2 My freshman year of college, I was walking around campus when a very friendly looking girl waved at me. I'm awkward, so of course I waved back.
The next week, the same thing.

Speaker 2 This began the weirdest saga of my life. For the next two years, we greeted each other as old friends every time we came across the other.
She knew my name somehow.

Speaker 2 I never could figure hers out, and it was way too late to ask. I just pretended I knew who she was and why she knew me.
Finally, I joined the honors program and entered my classes for my thesis.

Speaker 2 Who should be in this class? But Mystery Girl. I was horrified.
I wouldn't be able to pass it off anymore. First day of class, we are all sitting there chatting, and she greets me by name again.

Speaker 2 I had finally learned her name from attendance, thank God. Someone asks finally, oh, so you two know each other.
Where'd you meet?

Speaker 2 Silence. I stare at her.
She stares at me. Finally, Finally, she breaks down, wailing, I don't know.
I don't know, okay?

Speaker 2 We've just been waving at each other for two years and it was too late.

Speaker 2 She's standing in my wedding next spring as one of my bridesmaids and very best friends.

Speaker 1 That's awesome.

Speaker 2 That's so good. That's by Miscellaneous on Reddit.

Speaker 2 This is a good one that everyone should use. You definitely tell your kids that when the ice cream truck music is on, it means that they're out of ice cream.
That's just

Speaker 2 an old nugget. Also, I can only imagine all the lies we could collect about the tooth fairy.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I told my daughter the tooth fairy was delayed by Hurricane Sandy after forgetting her dollar several nights in a row.

Speaker 2 And since then, the tooth fairy has also been subject to storms, heavy cloud cover, and huge stroke.

Speaker 1 She is super flaky, says Jessica Kiesler-Matt.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 2 it's just a bed of lies, what we tell them.

Speaker 2 I think I've mentioned when Chase finally asked me, oh, also warning, turn this off for listening with kids.

Speaker 2 When I finally told

Speaker 2 Chase about Santa, because he looked at me, sister, he looked at me and said, you need to tell me the truth right now.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 He did.

Speaker 2 And I said, Santa, the spirit of Santa is real. the giving, the love, the joy, but it's, it's in me.
It's in me and your dad. Okay.

Speaker 2 We are, it's real, but it's a different kind of real than you think it is. Right.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he said,

Speaker 2 is that what it is with the tooth fairy too?

Speaker 2 And I said,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 2 And he thought for a few minutes quietly, and then he goes,

Speaker 2 is that the thing about God too?

Speaker 1 And I was like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 Oh, what a tangled web we weave.

Speaker 2 I love this one because it just reminds me of my stupid lies when I was little. My friend told me he got InSync's autograph.

Speaker 1 And when he showed it to me, it was just the word InSync written on a post-it note.

Speaker 2 I don't know why that makes me so happy.

Speaker 2 He faked it with just the word in sync.

Speaker 2 Dominic Kane on Twitter. Thanks for that, Dominic.
Let's end with this love bug who has just, you know, really,

Speaker 2 there can be such joy in lying, proven

Speaker 2 by Cazaville on TikTok. Fun fact, they say, you can just lie.
You can just do it. I do it a lot.
And here are some of my favorite lies I've told recently.

Speaker 2 If someone is studying in a major and I know the name of a professor who teaches that, I'll just be like, oh my God, you're in that major? Do you know Professor Smith? He's my dad.

Speaker 2 One time I told someone that I've never paid for anything in cash in my life.

Speaker 2 I've never personally handled cash, I said.

Speaker 2 If you're trying to make plans with someone and they suggest a bar or something, it is so fun to say, oh no, I can't go there. I've been banned.
And then just not elaborate.

Speaker 2 Bringing joy back to lying. Thank you.

Speaker 2 All right, loves.

Speaker 1 We hope that you will think of your lying style.

Speaker 2 What else do we hope for these love bugs?

Speaker 3 I hope that you will not add

Speaker 3 being a liar to the list of things that you have shame about, because then we should all just be carrying an equal amount of shame on

Speaker 3 behalf of the society that we live in, which requires us to lie on a daily basis and then makes us feel shame for doing so. So I say reject that.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 1 also

Speaker 3 try to think about

Speaker 3 one

Speaker 3 person

Speaker 3 that you can, in your life, have a totally honest relationship with, in which you trust them enough to have accountability to them and from them to the truth,

Speaker 3 whatever that might be. Because the studies show that even in the relationships where we have the little lies or the big lies.
They are actually less satisfying to us.

Speaker 3 It's that same thing of like, if you're presenting only part of yourself and someone loves you,

Speaker 3 you don't actually feel their love because it, you don't trust it because it's not the real you.

Speaker 3 So if you just

Speaker 3 can think of one person

Speaker 3 and you trust them enough to say, I've been thinking about it. And I was thinking we could have a thing with us.
where we just are always honest with each other.

Speaker 3 Like I can always handle the truth from you and

Speaker 3 I would like to be always honest with you. How does that sound?

Speaker 3 I don't think we need many people like that. But I think if you just have one, it's a whole different way of living.
And I don't think we can or should try it with a shit ton of people.

Speaker 3 But just think about that. And maybe it's a level of adventure in life that you haven't had yet when you can be

Speaker 3 in a relationship like that. I love that.
So good.

Speaker 2 And if you can't do that, just get a diary. I know that sounds silly, but I feel like a diary is people's way of having an honest relationship with someone.

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 1 themselves.

Speaker 3 If I ever lost my phone, I'd be fucked. Because my notes section has some stuff that.

Speaker 3 All right.

Speaker 2 Pod squad, we love you. We mean it.
We're not lying. Swear.
See you next time. Bye.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.