Cheryl Strayed Tells Us What the Hell to Do Next (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Cheryl Strade

Speaker 2 is back!

Speaker 2 Cheryl Strade

Speaker 2 is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Wild, from Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, which has sold more than 4 million copies worldwide and was made into an Oscar-nominated film starring Reese Witherspoon.

Speaker 2 Her best-selling collection of dear sugar columns, Tiny Beautiful Things, one of my favorites, was adapted for a newly released television show starring Catherine Hahn and is available now for streaming on Hulu.

Speaker 2 Straight is also the author of the critically acclaimed novel Torch and the best-selling collection Brave Enough. She lives in Portland, Oregon.

Speaker 2 And if you have not listened to our first episodes with Cheryl, they were amazing. So go back and check out episodes 118 and 119.

Speaker 4 I love you so much. You know this.
And I'm now even more obsessed. And I have to say, Amanda,

Speaker 4 one of my favorite episodes is like the all about Amanda episode.

Speaker 2 Did you relate to that one, Cheryl?

Speaker 4 I did.

Speaker 4 well namely because i have spent my life as a flirt too but though i have to say i'm reformed and i'm more like abby now because you can only play with fire for so long kids without getting burned yeah

Speaker 3 this is a follow-up episode i need to have

Speaker 4 but abby um you know no what abby said i was like oh i so relate to that that that idea of like you know here we are launching into this flirtation thing i'm sure that's not what you guys wanted to talk about right off the bat that is we love That's what I want to talk about, Cheryl.

Speaker 4 Yeah. But like what Abby was saying, it was like, you realize like, okay, you've got to flirt responsibly, you know, the energy.
Yeah. People misinterpret it.

Speaker 2 That's right. Flirt responsibly.
I feel like that's kind of like drink responsibly.

Speaker 3 Some of us can. Some of us never can again.

Speaker 4 That's true. That's right.

Speaker 2 So mad at everyone who can drink responsibly. If I were not an alcoholic, Cheryl, I would drink every damn day.

Speaker 4 You know, my joke used to be, I'm so glad that I'm not an alcoholic because I love to drink. I've been on an alcohol journey of the last year,

Speaker 4 actually, like, because I am somebody who can drink responsibly and loves to drink. But also, I did start to realize, you know what, this isn't good for me.

Speaker 4 This isn't healthy there, you know, all of that stuff. So I've really like.

Speaker 4 just got on a personal journey of drinking less and hardly at all anymore.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 5 When you say not not healthy for you in what ways was it impacting you that you're like

Speaker 4 this is not good i actually answered this letter in my most recent um deer sugar column i do a once a month on substack letter and essentially what happened is i realized i was starting to get letters from people who were saying listen i don't have a drinking problem i'm not an alcoholic but this letter writer i answered she said i tried to do dry january in support of my friend who does have a problem with drinking.

Speaker 4 And what I found is I couldn't stop drinking. I kept saying I wouldn't drink.
And then I would just pour myself a drink at the end of the day.

Speaker 4 And I answered her letter because I felt like this was reflective of the awakening I've had over this last year or so.

Speaker 4 And I know that there are so many people out there, I call it who have a problem without a problem.

Speaker 4 You know, there's this weird binary that we've fallen into in this culture where it's like the alcoholics are the people who have a problem and everyone else just gets to drink their heads off every day.

Speaker 4 And I realized that that was false. And

Speaker 4 last summer, I got COVID. I was in Greece.
I got COVID. I was sick.
It was like a nightmare.

Speaker 4 But when I recovered, I had that experience that I often have after a time of struggle is I felt awake and aware. And I wrote a letter to myself.
You know, it's very Liz Gilbert of me.

Speaker 4 And I sat there in Corfu in the searing heat. And I just wrote this letter, Dear Cheryl, here's what you need to do to take better care of yourself.
Here's what you've known for ages.

Speaker 4 And I wrote all kinds of things that I knew. And surprisingly, one of the things I wrote is, you need to drink less.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 4 Because what was happening is, even though I never got drunk, even though I didn't all of the bad consequences of alcohol, I was drinking pretty much every day.

Speaker 4 I was drinking pretty much two or three glasses every day of wine, which is like triple triple what is recommended by the CDC.

Speaker 4 You know, and I wanted to deny, I wanted to say, well, I'm a moderate drinker, because I think by most people's assessment, I am and was.

Speaker 4 But by, you know, all the doctors and people who know about this stuff say, no, that's actually not moderate at all.

Speaker 4 So I started to just be mindful about that and to pay attention to how I was using alcohol and why.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I slowly but surely have pretty much stopped drinking.

Speaker 5 I'm so thankful you said that because I do feel like we have this

Speaker 5 polarization where it's either if you don't have a DUI and you haven't been arrested and your family's still together, then surely you can't have a problem with alcohol.

Speaker 5 Like there's this bucket and you almost need a justification. If you go out in the world and you're not drinking, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 4 You can't just elect to not do that you have to have a demonstrated history of a problem to do something that aggressive to the world absolutely like a lot of stuff that a lot of us wake up to and realize wait a minute we've been fed this false binary that it's like you're either this or that you're good or bad you're an alcoholic or you're fine you know whatever it is almost always that binary is a false narrative

Speaker 4 and If you can bring mindfulness, I feel like obviously there are lots of people out there who are like, no, I can't drink again because it was a destructive force in my life.

Speaker 4 But I'm not one of those people. I don't have a list of things that I could say, this is what alcohol ruined for me.

Speaker 4 But what I do know is that it was slowly, kind of silently, probably ruining, ruining my health, that it is better.

Speaker 4 I do enjoy having a clearer mind and waking up in the morning, not feeling that little tiny, teeny, eeny, beanie hangover, all of that stuff, you know?

Speaker 4 And so I just think that there's so much conversation right now about mindful drinking and sober, curious, and that whole category of drinkers who, you know, would do well to think more mindfully about their drinking, even if they're not going to completely give it up.

Speaker 2 Holly Whitaker does a beautiful job in her book, Quit Like a Woman, talking about how, you know, big alcohol is the one that even put out the idea, drink responsibly. Because actually,

Speaker 2 what does that mean? They created this idea that there's a group of people that alcohol is bad for, and you can find them in AA meetings. And then the rest of the world, alcohol is good for.

Speaker 2 But actually,

Speaker 2 instead of asking ourselves, do I have a problem? We could always ask, is this benefiting me in my life? Like, is it helpful for me to be drinking alcohol?

Speaker 2 And one of the things I always think about is most tragic about all of the things we do to kind of take the edge off. I get taking the edge off.
It's probably why I go to bed at 7:30. Like,

Speaker 2 that's when the edge really emerges. Right.

Speaker 3 So she's like, good night, moon. I'm out.

Speaker 2 But I know I've said this before, but I think it's so important to me.

Speaker 2 It's like the edge, that discomfort or that little bit of suffering that we take off with the booze or the shopping or whatever, that discomfort is usually what propels us to change.

Speaker 2 Like what the suffering that makes us make changes in our life. Like we're like, oh, this friendship sucks and I can't, and then we just drink it away.
Oh, I need to switch jobs.

Speaker 2 I can't stay on my job. And then we kind of drink the edge away.
But the edge of discomfort is there so that we won't stay in discomfort.

Speaker 2 So, so that we will move, so that we will change, so that we will do that, make the hard decision. So, I always think of it in terms of like the edge is there for a reason.

Speaker 2 Like, it's a gift to you to point you in one direction or not. And when we dull that edge forever, we just stay in meh.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, that there are healthy ways of dulling that edge.

Speaker 4 You know, one of them is sleep. One of them is going to bed at 7.30 instead of having a drink or going for a walk or calling someone you care about.

Speaker 4 And I know, Glennon, you're against phone calls, but you know, connecting, texting.

Speaker 4 And, you know, for me, what I realized, because that was the thing when I decided in Corfu, I had to drink less, my, my feeling wasn't like, yes, I can do this. My feeling was like,

Speaker 4 I can't, because that's what I do every night. When the day is over and I'm cooking dinner or whatever, that's my glass of wine.
That's my treat for myself. I give so much to so many people.

Speaker 4 Can't I give myself anything? And I was almost mad that I was going to have to surrender this. But here's what happened.

Speaker 4 It ended up being much easier than I thought it would be because once I just decided, Cheryl, you can keep giving yourself something at day's end. It just isn't going to be alcohol.

Speaker 4 I replaced it with other stuff because

Speaker 4 there are like really cool ways to take the edge off some of some of the things I listed, but I had a bad habit. And we can change our bad habits.

Speaker 4 And now, you know, I don't know what my drinking life ahead is going to be.

Speaker 4 I'm still sort of exploring, but one of the ideas I've sort of latched onto is maybe I drink alcohol as often as maybe I eat birthday cake.

Speaker 4 But it's kind of like every once in a blue moon, I will have a glass or two of wine, kind of with the regularity, I might have a piece of birthday cake, right?

Speaker 3 I love that. And when I think about alcohol, I've been sober almost seven years now.
It's like the human body is our processing vessel.

Speaker 3 So if we are poisoning it, because whether we want to admit this or not, alcohol is poison. And if we do that, we are not giving ourselves the ability to be fully human.

Speaker 3 I think about this so often in terms of creativity, in terms of planning podcasts, in terms of my business, in terms of my family, I need to be completely on all the time so that nothing falls through the cracks.

Speaker 3 And I am so grateful every morning to wake up and to know that I have nothing that I have to like worry about. Oh, God, yeah.

Speaker 2 Apologize for.

Speaker 3 Oh, gosh. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 And you still wake up after parties being like, what did I say? Oh, my God. And then I'm like, wait, I don't need to worry about that anymore.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 Well, at least most of the time. Every once in a while, I'll say something really ridiculous, even though I'm stone cold sober.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 2 We're still ourselves, aren't we? We're still ourselves.

Speaker 5 But it can be applied to everything. Like, Cheryl, what you just said is so important.
The anger about being like, I give to everyone else. And this is the one thing.

Speaker 5 And so you're saying, not only do I need to keep giving to everyone else, now I can't have my one thing. But that's so true in our relationships.
It's true. You can't just take away alcohol.

Speaker 5 You can't take away anything. You have to replace the thing

Speaker 5 that is meeting that need with something else that's working better for you. And so don't just take away, say, what am I going to add? What was missing that I was filling with this thing?

Speaker 5 And give yourself the time and the money and the like

Speaker 5 invitation to do that.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Absolutely.
And the permission to, you know, for me, one, one of the things is I went on a journey of the non-alcoholic wine replacement beverages.

Speaker 4 So then let me just tell you, they all taste like apple cider vinegar.

Speaker 4 So I would pour my glass of apple cider vinegar and say to my husband, I'm in the mood for a tasty glass of vinegar. Like, you know, but it helped me through.
And I tried all these different ones.

Speaker 4 And, you know, you mentioned Holly Whitaker, Glennon, and also Laura McCowan, people who've written really pretty amazing books that have been so illuminating and enlightening to me.

Speaker 4 And one of the things that honestly, I have to say, I'm 54.

Speaker 4 I didn't know really

Speaker 4 about alcohol.

Speaker 4 Abby, you said that it is a poison. It really is.
And that too shifted my thinking when I understood that no amount of alcohol is good for you.

Speaker 4 Now, of course, we all consume other things that aren't good for us too, but to really think about that

Speaker 4 and take that fact in.

Speaker 4 The fact that it took me this long to actually know that, and it's thanks to those books by those women and others, says something about our culture and the culture of alcohol.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Cheryl, will you tell us anything else that was in that letter of Bruelist of things that you knew about yourself that you wrote to yourself?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's interesting because they were all actually

Speaker 4 about this kind of thing, which is to

Speaker 4 in some ways, you know, love myself.

Speaker 4 I think that

Speaker 4 I am really good at looking outward and seeing, like, what do people need from me how can I support the people in my life my kids my partner my friends the the frankly even you know readers and fans like how do I put my energy outward in a way that makes them happy I know how to do that I've nailed that what I really struggle with is prioritizing myself.

Speaker 4 And I think this experience with COVID, what ended up happening is I was alone in an Airbnb for a week in Corfu where I knew not one person. So I'm just in Greece, sick as hell with COVID.

Speaker 4 And I emerged from this, this Airbnb and just sat, you know, like on the street writing that letter to myself. And it was all about how the primacy of the body and how I need to care for me, me,

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 exercise, diet, drink less. And by diet, I don't mean eat less.
I mean, be more mindful about nurturing myself, nurturing, consuming things that make me feel good.

Speaker 4 And then the spirit, making space in my life for the things that bring me joy, making space in my artistic life for the things that I actually am curious about pursuing. Again, I'm 54.

Speaker 4 All my life, I've wanted to learn how to, this is going to sound insane, okay, but I'm going to say.

Speaker 3 No, it will not. I know you're going to say something.
I know you guys are going to laugh.

Speaker 4 And I know I would look ridiculous doing it, but I've always wanted to learn how to tap dance.

Speaker 4 And my husband, every year, he's like, I'm going to give you tap dance lessons for Christmas. And I'm like, don't, don't.
It'll just be a burden because I don't have time to learn how to tap dance.

Speaker 4 So, you know, maybe I need to learn how to tap dance. Yes.

Speaker 2 You do, Cheryl Strange.

Speaker 3 We are sending you tap shoes.

Speaker 4 Doesn't that sound like fun?

Speaker 2 Yes, it sounds amazing.

Speaker 5 It sounds absurd. And that is why it's necessary.
Yes. Because we don't have any absurdity.
We just have this practical shit all day long.

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 4 and here's the thing too what i know is i would laugh the whole time yes yes

Speaker 4 i would laugh the whole time me too oh imagine myself tap dancing it's so good and have you ever had this experience i've had this experience lately because it has been not the easiest time in my life the last few years and um that i actually when i laugh with abandon i actually feel

Speaker 4 it in my body like a good thing. It's like a wave of something really positive.

Speaker 3 It's like an orgasm when you're really laughing yeah yes my new theory is like actually seeking that out seeking out laughter is one of the most healing acts of love we can give ourselves so good i've been doing that that exercise with smiling it's so weird but even if you like put a fake smile on i'll do it for like a few minutes a day And I feel ridiculous doing it.

Speaker 3 It looks ridiculous. But I actually feel better.

Speaker 3 There's something chemically happening. I know it for sure in my bones.
So just go out there and laugh, find laughter and also just smile to yourself.

Speaker 2 Cheryl, we were just talking to Gloria Steinem and she said that one of the many reasons why laughter is so magical is because it's proof of freedom because people can make us do anything.

Speaker 2 Like you can be compelled to do anything, except you cannot make.

Speaker 2 someone laugh, which is so funny because that's the way we use the language. We say, I made her laugh.

Speaker 5 I made him laugh.

Speaker 2 But it's the one thing that either has to be faked if you're going to make somebody laugh, right? But a true laugh can't be compelled. It can only be given.

Speaker 5 And it's one of the only ways you can surprise yourself.

Speaker 5 In this world where nothing's a surprise except, oh, we need a new transmission on the vehicle. Like there's no fun surprises left in life.

Speaker 5 Except like when something makes you laugh hard, it's very often a not expected,

Speaker 5 you weren't planning that in your day. And it's just like we lose the

Speaker 5 surprise, the unexpected, and laughing is like,

Speaker 5 I just surprised myself.

Speaker 3 What a damn joy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you just made me laugh, Amanda, because yeah, the transmission and like, oh, the cat vomited again on the floor. And then, I mean, do you guys have this life too? Yes.
Like, my life is all that.

Speaker 3 Yes, yes. Yes.
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 We just had it this morning. Basically, all we talk about is when our dog took a shit and when she threw it off.
That's what we talk about all day.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, I have two dogs and three cats.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So there's a lot of that going on. Yeah, a lot of that for sure.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

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Speaker 2 Cheryl, I have to tell you a couple things. Abby and I just binge watched all of Tiny Beautiful Things.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 was scared because Tiny Beautiful Things is one of the books that I give away the most in the world.

Speaker 3 I still,

Speaker 2 I will always. I just, it's a magical thing, that book.
And I was nervous about them trying to.

Speaker 2 translate it to TV. It felt very protective and, oh my God, it's so beautiful.
Are you so happy with it? All the magic of the book is in it.

Speaker 3 Catherine Hahn, get out of here with Catherine Hahn.

Speaker 2 Everybody in the production, how do you feel about it?

Speaker 4 Well, first of all, I feel so thrilled that you guys loved it. You're among the very first kind of people outside the project who I've talked to about it.
So thank you so much.

Speaker 4 And yes, I am really touched. by it and proud of it.
I was very involved in the making of it. I was in the writer's room, which was was led by the amazing showrunner and creator, Liz Tiguilar,

Speaker 4 and this

Speaker 4 a team of just beautiful, amazing writers. And then on the set last summer, watching these spectacular, all the cast and crew bringing their beauty to it and their lives to it.
So I'm thrilled.

Speaker 4 It's so touching to me to see.

Speaker 4 the ways that that book has traveled, you know, and I couldn't be more excited for everyone to see the show.

Speaker 4 It's so beautiful for anyone who doesn't know can you talk to our audience about dear sugar and how yeah that all started and what it has become to you yes so back in early 2010 i had just finished the first draft of wild and i sent it to my editor and i got this email in this in this sort of downtime that i was waiting for my editor to get back to me with wild notes from Steve Almond.

Speaker 4 At the time, he was just an acquaintance, but he's now my friend.

Speaker 4 And he said, Cheryl, I have have been writing this dear sugar column for the rumpus it's an advice column anonymous i write anonymously you i know you read it because i've only received one fan letter and it was from you

Speaker 4 early adopter cheryl strain that's right that's right and i later i was like that's not true right you and he said no literally you're the only person who ever read it and wrote to me and he said listen when i got your email i realized you are the real sugar and he had read my essays on my first novel, Torch, at that time.

Speaker 4 And he said, I don't want to do it anymore. It pays nothing.
Nobody reads it. Nobody writes to me asking for advice.
Would you like to take it over?

Speaker 2 Sounds like an offer you couldn't refuse, Cheryl.

Speaker 4 I mean, it's like no pay and no recognition. Sign me up, you know, and which I know sounds insane, but I did.
I said, yes.

Speaker 4 And that did go on to become some of the really core pieces of advice I give to people over and over again is, you know, trust your gut, trust yourself.

Speaker 4 Maybe that letter I wrote to myself in Corfu, I mean, that's, that's the place from which I was speaking then too, saying, here's what you know is true. And it's the stuff that sparks you to life.

Speaker 4 So I said, yes. And the great thing about writing for no pay is you can do whatever the hell you want to do.

Speaker 4 And I decided that I wasn't going to write a traditional advice column where I am like the person who knows everything and I tell you what to do. I was going to use story

Speaker 4 to help save others because stories have saved me.

Speaker 4 And I really went in there and essentially wrote essays about many aspects of life, telling stories from my own life, telling stories sometimes about my friends' lives with their permission.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I just really believed that that kind of storytelling would be something that would help illuminate people's questions rather than just tell them like what I think they should do.

Speaker 4 And it grew a cult following online. And so over the years, a couple of years later, I revealed my identity as sugar and then published Tiny Beautiful Things, which is a collection of these columns.

Speaker 4 And now there's a new edition of it out, the 10th anniversary edition with some new columns.

Speaker 2 It's why everyone listens to you, because

Speaker 2 what you do is again and again, in beautiful new ways every time, say, you already know the answer.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 2 And is that why

Speaker 2 the things we do to take the edge off are so dangerous? Because I think we do those things so we can stop knowing.

Speaker 4 Yes. Right.
So that's right. That's it.
That's it. You nailed it, Glennon.
You want to take over Esther Sugar?

Speaker 4 But no, that's, and that's it. Over and over again, you see me in the letter saying, I have like absolute clarity about what you should do.
Here it is.

Speaker 4 And not because I think you should do it, but because you think you should do it. And you know what you want and you're afraid to know it.
You're afraid to know it.

Speaker 4 Just like that drink less thing for me, I was afraid to know it because guess what happens when you know something?

Speaker 3 You have to act on it.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 And that's no fun sometimes, or that's scary sometimes, or that breaks our heart sometimes, at least in the short run. But I promise you, in the long run, you will be better for it.

Speaker 4 In the long run, the broken heart you will carry if you don't act on that knowing is a mighty burden to bear.

Speaker 5 I will never forget your line from the book. The worst thing for us is believing that a lie will keep us safe.
And truth is where the danger lies.

Speaker 5 We hide from not from acknowledging what we know is true because we think if we stay on this side of acknowledging it, we're going to somehow be safe, but we're never safe there.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. I know all of us have lived that, right?

Speaker 4 And also lived on the other side to be like, okay, I'm not going to say this thing or do this thing or make this move because it feels risky. It feels like I'll be endangering myself.

Speaker 4 And then the journey we all went on is we learned that that was the lie.

Speaker 4 That actually, like, when you bring things into the light, when you speak your truth, when you live out what you know is the right way,

Speaker 4 you know, that puts you in the safer zone because then you're aligned. you know the most painful thing is to be misaligned to have your life out here be different from your life in here oh

Speaker 2 you know i'm thinking about what you just said when you said data identity glenn you don't i know you don't do phone calls and i was thinking about how that has become less true over the last

Speaker 2 eight, nine months of my life

Speaker 2 when I started recovery and had to take away the thing I was doing to not know a lot anorexia restriction. I had to replace, you have to replace things.

Speaker 2 And so I started accepting phone calls and like actually even calling people every once in a while to say,

Speaker 2 help, like whatever

Speaker 2 people do when they're hurting. And I think it's so interesting that we have to reach out to people.

Speaker 2 so that they can act as mirrors for us because strangers are writing to you

Speaker 2 and you're seeing in their letter one line or two lines that gives you the clue that they already know exactly what they need to do. And then you're saying to them,

Speaker 2 I see you,

Speaker 2 go forth. You have permission to do the thing that you want to do.
And that's what all the phone calls are about for me. Like I call the people that I know are just going to mirror me back to me.

Speaker 2 It's just so amazing how we all say,

Speaker 2 you already know what to do.

Speaker 2 And that is half of it.

Speaker 2 And then you need someone else to see that about you and say, you have permission to do what you know to do.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. I mean, I learned this over and over again, that

Speaker 4 validating, just validating people's lives and experiences and perceptions about who they are. We all need that.
And it's such a healing act. And it can also be an incredibly motivating one.

Speaker 4 For if somebody can just say to you, yeah, glennon i see that this is your struggle and that that somehow allows you to keep going right yeah yes it's a powerful thing i mean that's what connection is that we for a moment become one right i i hear very deeply what you're saying and you feel heard and then it goes the other way too it's a beautiful thing and when we don't call people glennon we deny ourselves that's right the ability to get that and i relate to that i have found myself and especially when I am feeling sad or struggling or having a hard time with something,

Speaker 4 I isolate. Even, you know, I think we all do, right? Because you're like, oh, I don't want to drag everyone down because I don't have a happy story to tell today.

Speaker 4 And then if I can push through that

Speaker 4 and go out.

Speaker 4 meet my friends for a walk or tea or whatever, I always feel better.

Speaker 4 And it's because of that thing, that connection that's so important.

Speaker 3 I just texted Glennon this yesterday because we were having some friends' events happening over the coming days. And she texted me, do you think I'll be okay? Am I going to get through this?

Speaker 3 And I said, you know, I don't think you're equating what it could positively bring to you. Like what we're doing is we're just like, oh, it's effort, it's time.

Speaker 3 But we're not also bringing into the equation how a community of people or reaching out to somebody else could actually improve your life or improve your circumstance in some way.

Speaker 3 They might not have any advice or help, but the knowing that somebody is there might actually make you feel better about your circumstance.

Speaker 4 Yeah, for sure. And it might not even be this deep stuff we're talking about where they're like, you know, affirming.
It might just be that you laugh. Yes.
That you go tap dancing together.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 4 That's important too, right?

Speaker 4 Just the joy that others can bring. I have this sort of theory about travel

Speaker 4 that like when we decide to go on a trip, the thing we imagine about that trip is just all the like great stuff that we're going to do and see. And it's just like happy.

Speaker 4 And then you get there and, you know, your luggage didn't make it with you and you eat some bad food and you have diarrhea and then you get COVID.

Speaker 3 You get COVID and Greece. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, my Greece trip was a disaster. Okay.
I always call this retrospective fun, right? Like that, then you get home and like.

Speaker 4 Nobody wants to hear your stories about like how beautiful the sunset was over Maui, right? They want to hear your stories about when you almost, you know, crapped yourself to death in Guatemala. Yes.

Speaker 4 That is a better story. That's a longer lasting story.
And this does actually have a point. Trust me, I'm going to wind back to this Glenn and getting together with friends thing.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 maybe the opposite happens when we think about.

Speaker 4 connecting with friends or making that call or getting together where you think like you you're imagining all the negative stuff like i'm going to have to like get ready and i'm going to have to go somewhere and i'm going to have to you know be on for a bit and then you get there and you have a blast and you think, what was, why was I having so much anxiety about this?

Speaker 4 This was wonderful. I feel great.
Maybe that there is something to remember about that, that you're going to feel better after you do it, but and keep that in your mind.

Speaker 2 I think that's right. I used to feel that way with family trips so much.
I think I still do. Like when kids are little and you go on a family trip, I used to just be looking at them.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I'd be carrying all their shit and they'd be crying.

Speaker 2 And I would look at them and think, one day I'm going to think this was fun. like right when I get back I'm gonna somehow look back on that but I was never actually

Speaker 3 happy

Speaker 4 retrospective fun yeah well yeah it's a real thing it really is it certainly wasn't very fun to hike the Pacific Rest Trail right I mean you know it was a lot of things and it was sometimes fun but mostly it was like toil and hardship and pain.

Speaker 4 And then of course it was the best thing I ever did.

Speaker 3 But it isn't life about building building memories, right?

Speaker 3 And not every memory is going to be like, you know, joyful, but still the memories of traveling with the kids are the things that you take with you everywhere you go. Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I think life is about activating all the parts of you. And if we are only staying in this lane all the time,

Speaker 5 we are not activating and accessing all of the multitude of what we contain.

Speaker 5 And so many of us are in this like, well, my to-do list is 1400 things long and I know I owe the people all of these things. And so I wish I had time to be with friends, but I don't.

Speaker 5 And I'm a little bitter that people keep telling me to do it because they're lucky enough to have time when I don't.

Speaker 5 But it's the only place where like this funny math works, where that hour that you invest,

Speaker 5 it multiplies in your life. I don't know how it works, but it adds more life and margin to you than you put into it.

Speaker 5 And so, yes, you don't have time. You don't have time to do it, but you almost don't have time not to do it because you need that multiplier in your life.

Speaker 3 It's too much.

Speaker 3 I've been kind of toying with this idea of what makes me feel most alive.

Speaker 3 And I have figured out that there's a before feeling most alive, the thinking about something, the doing of something when I feel most alive, and the after having done something, I feel most alive.

Speaker 3 All of those alive feelings, the feeling it before, the middle, and after having done something, they're all important.

Speaker 3 They all have the same amount of importance in my life, in my well-being, and my happiness. So, I don't know if this makes any sense.

Speaker 2 I like the framing of aliveness instead of what makes me happy. Because if I say what makes me happy, I'm like, I'll just still stay on the couch.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Because happiness has a kind of, it's sort of lightweight. Aliveness is, it's all the levels and layers.
Abby, so

Speaker 4 how many things are on your list of what makes you feel alive? And how many of them do you do on a daily basis?

Speaker 3 I love that you ask this because I'm a data person. So I've actually been trying to toy with creating a list of data points so that I can actually attribute.

Speaker 3 point value to the things that I do if I'm feeling down or low. I'm such an athlete that I can buy one today.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I can put three things into my day and the value of my my aliveness will go up so in terms of the things that make me feel alive before i do them are like when i look forward to trips i feel excited when i look forward to spending time with my family and my kids um things that make me feel alive when i'm actually doing them golfing surfing um things that make me feel alive after i have done them working out, going on a walk.

Speaker 3 I know that there are some people who like walking. I like having had walked because I would prefer running.
I would like to get there as quickly as possible.

Speaker 3 And walking feels like the slowest method.

Speaker 4 How can you not like walk? Well, wait a minute. How are we going to do the AT together, man? If you're going to try to run it, I know.

Speaker 3 It would be

Speaker 3 hard.

Speaker 3 The camera shot of Abby like so far away running and hand back to Cheryl. It's like plod, plod, plod.

Speaker 4 I was like, what kind of person is this like somebody who doesn't like puppies? Like, how do you not like walking?

Speaker 6 Because it's boring.

Speaker 2 Because it's boring.

Speaker 2 Okay. I love walking.
You love walking.

Speaker 4 But I know you do, Blenny. And you walk every day like me and twice a day.

Speaker 4 This, though, I have to say, is probably why Abby is different from us and she's a champion world-class athlete.

Speaker 3 Yes. But here's the thing.
I still attribute the same amount of value to when I walk, to when I'm surfing, and to when I'm thinking about going on a trip. like that aliveness is the exact same.

Speaker 3 It's like I still feel

Speaker 3 the energy from having walked. So I know that about myself.
I know that I have a

Speaker 3 predisposition to have like a little bit of lazy. I like being a little bit of lazy.

Speaker 3 And to counteract that, I have to remind myself, oh, I feel really alive when I'm done doing a hard thing that I, that whether it's working out or lifting weights or going on a run.

Speaker 3 i think that it's important for people to especially to try to build the habits in life that to make you feel most alive

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Speaker 3 So

Speaker 2 let's hear from some of our listeners who were so excited to ask the sugar some questions about their lives. Can we hear from Bethany?

Speaker 8 Hi, my name is Bethany and I had a question for Dear Sugar, for Cheryl Stray. My question is probably not a super unique one.
I feel like basic mom asking this question, but I am in my mid-40s.

Speaker 8 My kids are growing up and they don't need me as much. And even before I had kids, never really felt particularly in love with my career or what I was doing.
And now I left that for a little while.

Speaker 8 And I don't know, I kind of don't know where to go from here. And maybe that's a midlife crisis.
I don't know.

Speaker 8 But wondering if Dear Sugar has any advice for those of us moms who are feeling a little bit lost in the middle of things.

Speaker 3 Thanks.

Speaker 4 Oh, I love this question. Bethany, congratulations.
Welcome to your midlife crisis.

Speaker 4 That is the good news. I really do.
I do believe that. Do you know what I mean, guys?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes. It is the best of times.
It is not the worst of times.

Speaker 4 And it doesn't feel like the best of times always when we're in these transition periods, but I do think that this is this wonderful moment, Bethany, in your life, where things are breaking open.

Speaker 4 And you say you feel lost. You say you don't know where to go from here.
And what an exciting time that is.

Speaker 4 Because the two things, what I want to say is that when we do feel lost, well, you know, then our main task is to go about the business of finding our way.

Speaker 4 And what that means is you get to go on a journey. You get to follow your curiosity.

Speaker 4 You get to follow that voice inside of you that we've been talking about so far, that voice of inner truth that says, like, here's what I know about myself.

Speaker 4 And the beautiful thing at middle-age, you know a lot. You know, you know, you didn't dig your career so much.

Speaker 4 You know, you love your children beyond words, and they are needing you less and less as they grow up. And now you have more freedom.

Speaker 4 And I think so many of us experienced that, you know, that kind of quarter life crisis in our 20s where the questions are all about the road ahead and all about

Speaker 4 who am I and where should I go and what direction should i take and you took the direction you did bethany and here you are now 20 years later in your mid-40s and now the question you get to answer is not who am i but who am i really

Speaker 4 and who you are really is the woman who's going to get to live this next chapter of your life um and one that possibly i think i know in fact with great certainty will be more aligned with that person you most truly are

Speaker 2 You know, I think about when I think of the word lost as someone who gets lost a lot, because I'm not great at directions for truly like literally.

Speaker 2 You know what? When you're lost, what you also are is very, very alive.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 When you are taking a route that you've known a million times, like sometimes life can be when our kids are in our, you know, routine, routine, routine, there's a, there's a sleepness.

Speaker 2 You can sleepwalk through it. And then when you are lost and you're think about when you're in a new place and you don't recognize anywhere, you are alive to yourselves.
You're so aware.

Speaker 2 And I think that is the magic of this time, right?

Speaker 2 And it's like, crisis is one of my favorite words in the whole world, actually. I always think of everybody talks about crisis as a problem, but it actually the root of it is to sift.

Speaker 2 Sifting, like that where all the sand falls away, like in one of those sifters and you just have the treasures left over. I think stay alive, stay lost, look for the treasures.

Speaker 2 It's exciting time. Women stepping into a time of life when

Speaker 2 people aren't needing us. Holy shit.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of freedom in that.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I'd say too, Bethany, to really embrace this, like actually go after those things that might help you think about what to do next. Go on

Speaker 4 an actual trip or a journey if you can. If you can't do that, try to do something outside your comfort zone right there where you live.

Speaker 4 You know, take the tap dancing class if you always wanted to be a tap dancer. Sign up for something that surprises you and see what happens.
I love it.

Speaker 2 I love it. Love it.
Okay. I think we have Kate next.

Speaker 9 Hi, my name is Kate. My question is: when you have the clarity to understand that your relationship is not healthy and you can't stay in it, but you love the person.

Speaker 9 How do you walk away with grace and dignity and

Speaker 9 let go of the resentment and remorse that may have come from the relationship and just carry on into the light of yourself?

Speaker 4 Oh, Kate.

Speaker 4 You know, this is a question that I would say that it's

Speaker 4 really one of the very most common questions I get because it is hard to tell someone you love that you no longer want to be with them, that you don't want to stay, that you want to go, and you want to go even though you love the person, you know, and that you don't want to have that goodbye be one that's one full of anger and wreckage and animosity.

Speaker 4 And the advice I give over and over again, it's such a simple piece of advice and so hard to do. But what I know for sure, Kate, is you can do it, is that you tell the truth.

Speaker 4 And you tell the truth with all of your heart and all of your compassion and all of your intelligence and all of your courage and all of your strength.

Speaker 4 And you hold within you that little beautiful glowing gem of clarity that

Speaker 4 contains two truths that are not opposite each other, that you love this person you've been in partnership with. and you want to end the relationship as it exists now.

Speaker 4 And that you always return to that. You say that you don't want to hold resentment and remorse and all of those things.

Speaker 4 And I think that that's about staying mindful about your intentions. Your intentions are to lovingly end a relationship.
And sometimes there's anger and resentment gets tangled up in that.

Speaker 4 But I promise you, if you can stay true to that, to that deepest core truth within yourself, those things won't be what dominate your

Speaker 4 mind or the tenor of this breakup.

Speaker 3 Oh, you've just solved so many of the reasons why many of my breakups did not end well.

Speaker 3 Both Abby

Speaker 2 is so beautiful.

Speaker 3 I just wasn't able to be completely honest.

Speaker 3 I just wasn't. And I thought it was kindness.

Speaker 3 But in fact, my lack of ability to be completely truthful was probably in the long run, unkindness.

Speaker 4 It's so true. And Abby, I think that it goes back to this terrible binary thing.

Speaker 4 I think a lot of people feel like, well, in order to leave, in order for me to say, you know, this isn't working for me and I want to end this relationship, or at least in the way that it exists right now,

Speaker 4 romantic, sexual, whatever, I want to transition into a friendship or I want to end it altogether, whatever it is, is that we think like, okay, we have to have a reason that is outside of ourselves.

Speaker 4 It has to be, you're a bad person.

Speaker 4 You don't meet my needs in this way. You can't just say like, you are amazing.
and I love you. And I'm so grateful for everything we shared and everything I learned from you.

Speaker 4 And I will love you always in a different way, but I no longer want to be in this relationship. Like just to say with simple clarity, that truth.

Speaker 4 I think so many people feel that and are terrified of saying it. And so what they do is then they make it dirty.

Speaker 3 Yes. Make it dirty.

Speaker 4 They lie, they manipulate and gaslight. They create conflict where there really doesn't need to be any.
All of those things then end up, you know, we make a dirty break instead of a clean one.

Speaker 2 We demonize the other person because we think we have to prove ourselves. We have to make a case

Speaker 2 for leaving because we don't think we deserve to just go because we want to.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 2 That's right. So beautiful.
Can we please hear from sweet Erica?

Speaker 7 Hi, my name is Erica. I would like to get Cheryl or Sugar's thoughts on how to best love and exist with someone who is in the depths of addiction and depression.
It's not just anyone.

Speaker 7 It's one of my most cherished humans on this planet whom I love deeply. It's my adult son.
I do pretty good, but the ache is always there, and the pain is sometimes unbearable.

Speaker 4 It's hard for me to even say it out loud.

Speaker 7 It's a silent pain I feel like I'm always carrying. I would love to hear your insight on this.
Thank you for all you do.

Speaker 4 Oh, Erica, I think that

Speaker 4 the experience that you are having with your son is way up there among the most painful, painful

Speaker 4 experiences any of us can have.

Speaker 4 I don't think that there's anything that I can say that would negate that suffering that you're experiencing, except to say that I think the way you love your son is I'm going to guess the way that you have been loving him all along, which is wildly, deeply, unconditionally,

Speaker 4 recognizing always that your son is not his addiction. Those two things are not the same.

Speaker 4 And I think the most positive way you can love him through this experience is to also remember to love yourself. That sounds really like

Speaker 4 maybe trite sometimes to go, we can't forget the self-care routine, because I know that that sounds like absolute bullshit in the face of the monumental suffering that you're experiencing.

Speaker 4 And yet, what I have found, and I want to say, Erica, even though I haven't written about this publicly or talked about this a lot, I have had experiences that are like yours, not with a child, but with other family members.

Speaker 4 And there is this terrible, terrible powerless one feels when you watch somebody you love so dearly suffering and you don't know how to help them. And what I've figured out, this love yourself thing.

Speaker 4 it actually finds its way back to the question you're asking me, which is how to love your son.

Speaker 4 And what I mean by this is, I think when we're in pain, we can get very often caught up in this sense, this kind of powerless cycle of what do I do to change him? What do I do to help him?

Speaker 4 What do I do to support him? And all of those things are so much outside of our control.

Speaker 4 But what is inside of our control is to say, how do I make myself strong and brave and whole so that I can be that strong, brave, whole person that will be there for this person I love so much.

Speaker 4 And what that looks like

Speaker 4 are the little things, literally, like the thing I said earlier about like seeking out opportunities to laugh, seeking out opportunities to connect, seeking out opportunities, not just to do the deep work, obviously, with like a therapist or somebody who can really help you through the epic.

Speaker 4 psychological task that you've been given because you're in this situation, but the things that actually nurture you and make you stronger braver wholer those are the things that will allow you to be the amazing mother to your son that you already are because suffering has a way of depleting us

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 you are not going to be able to love your son the way i know you want to love him if you're depleted so do that and and know that um

Speaker 4 that actually what you're going to figure out i think by doing all that stuff is you can bear it. You can bear this pain.
And that is love.

Speaker 4 The strength that you have when it comes to bearing this impossible situation is your love. Damn.

Speaker 5 Do you think, Cheryl, when you're talking about finding ways to laugh, finding ways to be whole,

Speaker 5 do you get? a lot of messages like this that are

Speaker 5 the thing that she's not asking that I'm thinking is that old truism of you're only as happy as your least happy child like is there something to it that's like

Speaker 5 because of the way the universe is now where my dearest one is suffering

Speaker 5 i can only

Speaker 5 do my best to suffer because i don't have the right the right

Speaker 5 to ever

Speaker 5 even try to be happy because that would be breaking the rules of the universe.

Speaker 4 I think that's real. And I also think, I mean, with my own kids, I have two teenagers and I think I've mentioned maybe to you guys before that, you know, it's been a hard couple of years.

Speaker 4 And there are times that I have suffered tremendously because one of my kids was suffering. And that thing you're describing, Amanda, where it's almost like you think like the greatest act of love

Speaker 4 is to

Speaker 4 actually like have their nervous system inside your body and suffer for them, suffer in the ways that they are suffering. And what I've learned through this experience that I've been through

Speaker 4 is that actually that weakens me and that I can't actually be the mother, the strong, brave, whole mother that I need to be. to help my kid who is struggling.

Speaker 4 And again, you know, sometimes I think this is why

Speaker 4 right away when I started writing Dishographer, I was like, you know, I'm not like a self-help person.

Speaker 4 I do sometimes think that sometimes these messages we get, like, just remember gratitude or, you know, all these that can seem really kind of glib and false and not really validate the true suffering involved.

Speaker 4 And the truth is, Erica, that like nobody is going to save you from this.

Speaker 4 That this is one of the most painful things that a human can ever endure and you have to endure it.

Speaker 4 So then, when you just simply accept that, that like no magic bunny is going to come along and hippity-hop, and then everything is going to be happy, and you're going to feel good about this.

Speaker 4 You're never going to feel good if your son is an addict and struggling with depression. You're just not.
Okay.

Speaker 4 But you can feel better in your suffering if you remember to learn how to be strong and learn how to be brave and to take care of yourself in those radically deep, simple, complicated, daily ways that keep you

Speaker 4 on your two feet. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's why we listen to Dear Sugar.

Speaker 3 Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 She tells the truth. Can we please hear from Miranda?

Speaker 10 Hi, my name is Miranda.

Speaker 11 I started to think about what in my life is the most stressful and what controls me the most, and it's money.

Speaker 11 I know it's not always the most like socially acceptable thing to talk about and it can be kind of taboo, but like I don't even care about the money, like the figures.

Speaker 10 I just want to know how to not let it have so much control over my mood and my mental state. That might be too much to ask.

Speaker 4 Oh, money, Miranda. I love this question.
And I first want to validate, you know, money is. absolutely stressful, especially if you don't have enough or as much as you think you need.
I know this.

Speaker 4 I grew up poor. Every year of my childhood, I lived under the poverty line and I got Medicaid and food stamps and free government cheese and powdered milk.

Speaker 4 And on occasion, my family visited boot shelves. I got to go to these places at Christmas and pick out a free Christmas gift.
I know

Speaker 4 what it is like to live with that stress of money. And I also witnessed that very much with my mom, who was a single mom with three kids and saw the toll it took on her.

Speaker 4 And I will say it's exhausting and it's all you say. It occupies your mind.
But the advice I want to give to you, and I love that your question, Miranda, is not about

Speaker 4 money itself. It's not about like how to earn more money or how to get out of debt or what do I, you know, all of those things.
It's actually about your mindset when it comes to stress.

Speaker 4 And it happens to be stress connected to money, but it could be stress about something else.

Speaker 4 But, but what I wanted to say is something that I really absorbed, in addition to absorbing the hardships I just described to you of my youth and into my adult life, I should say,

Speaker 4 is that

Speaker 4 so much of our ability to handle the stress when it comes to money is to make mindful decisions about money's meaning in our lives and the ways that money defines who we are and what we feel.

Speaker 4 The thing that my mother would always say when I was a kid and complaining about like wanting something that we couldn't have or being without is she would say

Speaker 4 we we aren't poor because we're rich in love.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 what I thought at the time as a kid was, you know, just that was ridiculous. And I rolled my eyes at my mom.

Speaker 4 But I, what I realized later is that she raised me and my siblings with a theory of abundance rather than scarcity. So at every turn, when I would say,

Speaker 4 I want this, like my whole life, for example, wanted brand name jeans. I wanted Levi's and lead jeans.
I never got them until I had my own job at 14 and bought them myself.

Speaker 4 I got jeans from like Kmart that had no brand, right? And she would say, We aren't poor because we're rich in love. Abundance over scarcity, abundance over scarcity.
When I became an adult, I

Speaker 4 started to really think about like, what does that mean?

Speaker 4 And I think that part of what it means, and I think

Speaker 4 this thing applies to stress in every part of our life, is that we become conscious about like those received thoughts we have. It's like, okay,

Speaker 4 I need more money. And so therefore I feel stressed out and I feel controlled by it.

Speaker 4 What if you take a breath, Miranda, and say, okay, I feel acutely right now the things I don't have because of money. What are the things that I do have?

Speaker 4 And here we are again in that kind of, oh, you know, just be grateful for everything and you're going to feel better. But you know what? You actually will.

Speaker 4 You actually will feel better if you can say, I am rich in these things.

Speaker 4 And I think that that can be such a profound shift about so many aspects of our lives.

Speaker 4 It can liberate us to make choices that actually lead to our thriving that is beyond, you know, money.

Speaker 4 An example of this, one of my favorite questions I get when people talk to me about Wild. So in Wild, I write about hiking on the Pacific Rust Trail.
And I also write about how I had no money. Okay.

Speaker 4 I very often was hiking with like, you know, 35 cents in in my pocket when i finished my hike on the trail i literally had 20 cents i didn't have any credit cards i had student loan debt that i paid off on my 44th birthday only 10 years ago um and and i just was walking along for literally 1100 miles for like 94 days i'd have a 20 bill in each resupply box and then when i spent it it was gone that's how much money i had and people will say to me, how could you have hiked the Pacific Crest Trail if you didn't have enough money?

Speaker 4 And I always say, but you see, I did. I did have enough money.
I hiked the Pacific Crest Trail. If I didn't have enough money, I couldn't have done it.

Speaker 2 I'd still be there.

Speaker 4 That's right. And what this is about is that shifting that thinking.
What is enough?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 You know, am I going to let money be the thing that stops me from going on an epic journey? Am I going to let fear be the thing that stops me? from going on this epic journey?

Speaker 4 The answer was no and no.

Speaker 4 And this is about the very thing you're asking about, Miranda, which isn't about how much money do I have and how much do I need to be happy.

Speaker 4 It's how do I change the way I think of the power it has over me?

Speaker 4 The way you do it is you take the power back.

Speaker 4 You say, I am the captain of this ship. And these are the things I'm going to remember and think about and feel and allow to have a place in my mind on this day.

Speaker 4 And it doesn't mean you'll never feel stressed about money again trust me i mean i have spent most of my life stressed about money but i can say that to make that mental shift will make all the difference in the world in the way you feel about it

Speaker 2 cheryl straight i love that every time we talk we always end up coming back in the end to something that your mom taught you

Speaker 4 every damn time every damn time it's true it's true isn't that funny

Speaker 4 put yourself in the way of beauty that we We aren't poor because we're rich in love. I think that that's really powerful stuff, right? The mom medicine that I received.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And it's all over. It's all over the show.

Speaker 4 I mean, the gosh, the show, it's all over the show. It's all over the show.
Mothers and daughters and love and all of that.

Speaker 2 We love you. You're mom and you and your heart and your work just makes the world feel more connected and braver.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 So thank you, Cheryl.

Speaker 4 Thank you. I can't express express my gratitude enough because I really think the work that the three of you are doing with this podcast is tremendously healing and powerful.

Speaker 4 I listen to it. I'm a huge fan, as you know.
I'm going to, I'm going to make you call me Glennon and start talking to me on this.

Speaker 4 But also,

Speaker 4 you know, I hear from so many people all the time about this podcast. And I just hope you know what important work you're all doing by having these conversations.

Speaker 4 And so thank you so much for inviting me on to your show. And thank you for watching my show, Tiny Beautiful Things.

Speaker 2 Thanks, Cheryl.

Speaker 4 I always love talking to you. Hey, and anytime you need Dear Sugar back on the show, I am here for you.

Speaker 3 Yes, I heard it here. I love these episodes so much.
I'm sitting here. I'm like taking notes.
I'm like, damn, that was really good.

Speaker 2 She's going to go back to all her exes and re-break up with them and tell them the damn truth this time.

Speaker 4 Abby's going to break up the right way this time. That's right.

Speaker 5 I think they've blocked her number. So probably.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 You did it it so badly.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 Thank you, Cheryl. Thanks, Cheryl.

Speaker 2 Thank you, Pod Squad.

Speaker 4 Bye. Keep walking or running, as the case may be.

Speaker 2 Bye, Pod Squad.

Speaker 3 We'll see you next time.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.