HELP: How to Ask for the Help You Need (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Hello world

Speaker 3 hello world.

Speaker 2 Today on We Can Do Hard Things,

Speaker 2 we are talking about

Speaker 3 help.

Speaker 3 Help! Help!

Speaker 3 Sister Tyler. Help me, Rhonda.
Help! Help! Rhonda! Help me, Rhonda!

Speaker 3 Help!

Speaker 2 I need somebody!

Speaker 3 Help!

Speaker 3 Allison's going to cut all of this. I hope she doesn't, because I'm trying to launch my career.

Speaker 2 Tell us about Alice this week.

Speaker 3 Okay, so this thing happened this week that I was telling Gunner about yesterday because I,

Speaker 3 it was an insight into myself that my daughter provided.

Speaker 2 They do that, don't they? They're little mirrors.

Speaker 4 They do.

Speaker 3 It's really the most unfortunate part is that you're like, it's right there in front of my face.

Speaker 3 Like when I'm screaming at Bobby, you need to learn to regulate your emotions.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's totally what we used to do with Tish.

Speaker 3 Why? Is she so dramatic?

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
so alice is currently in this camp that basically i can only assume was started in the 60s and they just

Speaker 3 codified the camp manual and it's just been the same ever since so it's like friendship bracelets and dodgeball and capture the flag and more friendship bracelets i don't want that camp so

Speaker 3 she

Speaker 3 is trying to work on this. It was very simple.
She's laying on my bed and she's trying to put these two bracelets together. And this is not complicated.

Speaker 3 She just has to fold the two bracelets together so that they're one. Okay.
And she is trying and trying.

Speaker 3 And it's very clear to me that this just like one tiny fold with her hand will solve her problem. And so I'm like, could I just, I just want to, I'm just going to get in there and do it.

Speaker 3 Like it's impossible for me to watch her do this and just not be able to do it.

Speaker 3 And she gives me the death stare of like, I double dare you to help me with this. Like, you

Speaker 3 back off, lady. She wants none of it.
And so I have to physically remove myself from the situation because I just can't sit beside her and watch her

Speaker 3 struggle with this. So I move to a different chair and I'm just like, okay, babe, you just,

Speaker 3 you know, Godspeed with that. And she, for like 10 minutes, she's working on this thing.

Speaker 3 And then after 10 minutes, she goes, Mom,

Speaker 3 I need

Speaker 3 help,

Speaker 3 but I don't want

Speaker 3 help.

Speaker 3 Oh

Speaker 3 my God.

Speaker 3 And I was like,

Speaker 3 yes.

Speaker 3 Yes, I understand that very well

Speaker 3 because that goes

Speaker 3 a third of my entire life. Really? Like, she wasn't describing what she needed next.
It was like she was grappling with this weird human condition.

Speaker 2 She's like, this human condition. Yes.
Yes.

Speaker 3 She was just still messing with it. And she just needed me to know that she was holding both things is true.
She understood she, in fact, needed help, but she also understood

Speaker 3 that she didn't want it.

Speaker 3 And I just thought

Speaker 3 we should talk about that because I felt very

Speaker 3 much

Speaker 3 like that described a lot of my life, where I'm in a situation where I intellectually understand

Speaker 3 that the help is necessary, but I am not comfortable with the asking or the receiving of it

Speaker 3 in that instance.

Speaker 2 And it's interesting because when you told me this story, you. told me it like I was going to totally also relate and understand.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Like I've just solved all of our problems.
Yeah. This is the condition we live under.

Speaker 2 And I was like, I don't get it. I

Speaker 2 usually, when we discover, you know, diametrically opposed human truths, which we believe in, right? Holding two things at once,

Speaker 3 the paradox of humanity.

Speaker 2 Yes, I always agree. But this one in particular, I feel like I'm always asking for help.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 3 Like that's just I also feel like you're always asking for help.

Speaker 2 I feel like where your go-to would be to dig in and not want to ask for help. My go-to is to like immediately ask for help, like before even trying kind of.

Speaker 5 I mean, yes, the remote, the refrigerator, and God help me with iPhone maps. Oh.
God help me with. I can't.

Speaker 2 Maps are hard and phones and remotes. Remotes.

Speaker 5 I mean, honey, I have sent you videos on how to do it.

Speaker 2 And you sit with me over and over.

Speaker 5 I try to be patient.

Speaker 2 Tutorials.

Speaker 3 Oh, wait, about how to use the remote. Yeah,

Speaker 3 she cannot.

Speaker 2 And the thing is that Abby does it over and over again. Like she sits me down and patiently talks me through the remote, but

Speaker 3 you're not listening, are you? No.

Speaker 2 Here's what I need to tell you about that.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 I've, I thought this through recently. So when you sit me down at the couch,

Speaker 2 And you say, honey, let's talk through this remote thing again.

Speaker 2 I panic when people talk to me directly. Mostly when people speak to me directly, when they look me in the eye and try to tell me something,

Speaker 2 especially when they're trying to help me or something, outside I look like I'm paying attention. Inside,

Speaker 2 I'm trying to look grateful and present, but I'm panicking. I'm panicking inside.
So when you sit me down, and say, I'm going to tell you about this remote again,

Speaker 2 I am trying to appear to look as if I'm concentrating and understanding you. That's all.
But on the inside of myself, I am thinking, oh my God, this is the 50th time she's told me this shit.

Speaker 2 You better look attentive and grateful, Doyle. Like, does this look attentive and grateful? Smile, look as if you are deeply processing new information.
And then it's over.

Speaker 2 And then she stops. And then it's over.
It's like, this is the problem with the map thing. Like when I ask for directions for someone on the street, like this happened to me like two weeks ago.

Speaker 2 I had to stop and ask this nice looking man how to get to the street that was not registering on my stupid ass phone map. And this dude gestures in a particular direction and says something about

Speaker 2 North.

Speaker 3 Oh,

Speaker 3 no, no, no. We're not looking for North.

Speaker 2 No, so I'm looking at him and I'm grateful that he stopped to tell me the things on the outside, right? But on the inside, I'm thinking, what?

Speaker 3 Who the hell am I?

Speaker 2 Lewis and fucking Clark? Like Amelia Earhart

Speaker 3 or some shit?

Speaker 2 Do I look like an astrologer to say left or right buddy north or right but I can't say that because this is kind of him so on the outside I'm nodding and yes yesing and uh-huh and I'm I'm trying to look like I've got this now but no I do not got this now I've got it less than I did when I approached this cartographer

Speaker 5 I think probably the reason why he was using the words north and maybe south is because There's the Pacific Ocean.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't want to start with oceans.

Speaker 3 All right. Like

Speaker 3 oceans, but we live close to the ocean.

Speaker 2 See, here she goes again. So, now do I look grateful and like I'm processing new information?

Speaker 5 There's only one direction north can be from the context of the ocean, and one direction south can be, right?

Speaker 2 I get that.

Speaker 3 You are also okay. No, you don't.
I just know you don't. I'm not getting it.

Speaker 2 What about on a Zoom meeting?

Speaker 3 You know, me on Zoom meetings. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm on a Zoom meeting about very important things with a lot of very important people.

Speaker 2 And I never one time think my job on this Zoom meeting is to pay attention and listen to this new information.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 2 my job is to appear

Speaker 2 to be listening and paying close attention. So I'm looking at my own face and I'm thinking, yes, that looks like the face of someone who is calm, but concerned and serious, but kind.

Speaker 3 Look how professional I look. I'm rum nailing this.
Yes.

Speaker 2 And who belongs here, but it's also grateful to be here and is being so supportive with my face of all of the other Zoom square faces.

Speaker 2 And I look like I'm really taking in new information, but if you asked me at the end of this meeting what the new information is, I would have absolutely no clue.

Speaker 3 You'd be like, something about North.

Speaker 2 Anyway, that's the point. I'm going to work on this.
I'm just trying to get you to understand what's happening in my body. I'm not, and I'm not at the fix it part.

Speaker 2 I'm just telling you, I am panicking on the inside when you talk to me. What about you, sister?

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, it's gone in a vaguely different direction than I imagined, but I think what we're dealing with here is maybe a more specific issue.

Speaker 3 A, I think on Zoom, you're staring at your face and saying, is this the type of face of a person who

Speaker 3 is getting this? It's being self-conscious. Yeah.
Yeah. Self-conscious.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 I think with the remotes and the directions, I think it's... Because I too, I can hear two directions.
Go up there, turn left, and then take the next right.

Speaker 3 And then everything after that, I'm just pretending to look gracious because there's zero chance I'm getting more than two things. Right.
I think it's probably the same with the remote.

Speaker 3 I think you probably get the first

Speaker 3 one and a half steps, and then you're like, well,

Speaker 3 that's it. So maybe it's an attention thing.
I don't know

Speaker 3 because they have it.

Speaker 2 What I like about you, and I think is different about us, is I think there's like a little bit of shame. If you go deeper, there's something shame involved.

Speaker 2 It's like, I should know how to do this thing.

Speaker 2 Like when Abby hands me the phone and asks me to find something because she's driving, if I could explain to you how upsetting it is to me, I know she needs me to do it. I can't do it.
Like, I cannot.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to, I'm zooming in. I'm, I'm like, is this one of those screens where you do your fingers?

Speaker 2 I'm pushing the little dots, and it's not, I mean, it's funny, but it's not funny for me in the moment. I get really upset.
And so, my go-to is to just,

Speaker 2 I can't do it and quit. But your go-to is to never quit, to never

Speaker 2 stop. So I just want to hear about your, because I'm working on

Speaker 2 give yourself a second.

Speaker 2 Like just,

Speaker 2 I tell Abby sometimes, like she'll jump in to try to help me with something. I'm like, it takes me a little bit longer than it does with you.

Speaker 2 If you want me to figure those types of things out, just give me a minute. I need to not be under immediate pressure.

Speaker 2 And then I can like give myself a minute between the hand, the panicking and the begging for help.

Speaker 2 I can try.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I get that. And I think it is that deeper level because after Alice said that to me, I was thinking, I feel the exact same way, but it feels like it's a specific type of asking for help.

Speaker 3 Cause you and I both, Glennon, are incredibly

Speaker 3 efficient and resourceful in things like we'll walk into a grocery store. And if we need tomatoes, we will not look for the tomatoes.

Speaker 3 We will go up to a person and say, can you please point me towards the tomatoes? Because that just makes sense. Why am I going to spend five minutes looking when I can just ask you?

Speaker 3 So, that kind of help is easy breezy. Love it.

Speaker 3 Directions,

Speaker 3 happy to ask. But I think

Speaker 3 it's the specific instance, like exactly where Alice was

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 I'm particularly allergic to, which is people seeing me needing help

Speaker 3 before

Speaker 3 I have

Speaker 3 determined

Speaker 3 whether I need help, whether I'm going to ask for help, because there's no agency in that moment, right?

Speaker 3 Like if I have recognized that I need help and I am having the agency to ask for the help, then that is a position where I am

Speaker 3 activated and I am directional. If I'm struggling with something and someone notices emotionally, a job, no matter what it is,

Speaker 3 I am allergic to people seeing me struggling.

Speaker 2 That is so true about you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 So that's what Alice's thing was. I was witnessing her struggling before she had made the determination whether she needed help or wanted help.

Speaker 3 And that is for apparently both of us, the

Speaker 3 sweet spot of ultimate vulnerability.

Speaker 2 Yes, it's about vulnerability. It's about weakness.
Weakness, not like in your, in your perspective, being a bad thing. Like,

Speaker 2 I can't, oh my God, they're seeing me not be able to do this.

Speaker 3 It's about and I'm not in an active position of being like, okay, so I've done the analysis and I do in fact need help and I'm accessing my resources.

Speaker 3 And, you know, it's just the like, the struggle area.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's control too. You said something power.

Speaker 5 You said something earlier that really rang true. It's becoming self-conscious, like to become aware of yourself.

Speaker 5 And then, sister, what you're saying is like not being able to actually perform or complete or do whatever task is.

Speaker 5 And it's this intense vulnerability of.

Speaker 5 shame or feeling not good enough or you don't have enough agency.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm just thinking about so many times. Like I'm actually remembering so many times where I feel like in real time, you are like overwhelmed or exhausted or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 Which it's so interesting because for me, in those moments,

Speaker 2 I really want someone to be like,

Speaker 2 what is needed?

Speaker 2 But when I say to you,

Speaker 2 you seem exhausted or what can I do? It's you get mad.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You actually get mad. Yes.
And I see your body change. I see your face change.
It's like I've called you out. Like I've noticed something that is causing you shame

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 you reject.

Speaker 3 Yeah. That is correct.
It's like you busting in, open the door on someone and they're naked.

Speaker 3 and you're like get the hell out of here which i never do because i have no problem being naked so that's not a good analogy but if to the average person that would feel vulnerable and ick it's like that versus

Speaker 3 you know coming out and being like

Speaker 3 i need you to bring me some clothes yes but here's because that's me telling you what I need instead of you noticing what I need.

Speaker 2 Yes. My head is exploding right now.
That feels just so lonely to me too, because I have this, we have one kid who I feel like was like this for a really long time. Like this kid would come

Speaker 2 to us, sit down at the dinner table and say, I want you to know,

Speaker 2 my person and I broke up. It was three months ago that we broke up.
And I went through some hard times. This person lived with us and was our child.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I went through some hard times and it was ups and downs.

Speaker 3 And I worked through it. I've created a PowerPoint.
Yes. So that you understand what's going on with me.

Speaker 2 Yes. And right now, just, it's just no further questions.
Everything's fine. I'm on the other end.
I'm all as well.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that we just had to, okay, all right. But then I felt like, oh, this person thinks that life is something to figure out and control and get, and before you present it to people.

Speaker 2 But isn't that really lonely? Because isn't it that time when you're naked in the bathroom or whatever, like, you know, metaphorically,

Speaker 2 isn't that when you most need

Speaker 2 people to sit with you

Speaker 2 before you figured it all out? Or is that just a way of being that's not universal?

Speaker 3 It's wild because when you said that, I remembered that in my

Speaker 3 divorce,

Speaker 3 that's exactly what I did. That I

Speaker 3 did my three best friends.

Speaker 3 I, we had gone through the, I mean, granted, it was fairly swift, but it had, it was a couple months there of deep misery.

Speaker 3 And after the couple months was over, I called a summit to my house and I was like, I'm going to need you, all three of you, to come to my house because I have something to tell you.

Speaker 3 And they all came to my house and I delivered this news that

Speaker 3 here's what happened. I am getting a divorce.

Speaker 3 are the top level items you need to know about and

Speaker 3 that is the story i'll be taking questions at the end like it was no vulnerability and there was nothing through it it was like it was exactly like you said with your kid so it was nothing through it what do you mean by nothing through it like it was not there was no contact about like in the sorrow in the right in it it was like i i now have data to relay to you about the state of the union.

Speaker 5 It's like this, this deep need for a human being to need to have had overcome something in order to share it, the allergicness to true vulnerability.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the messy middle.

Speaker 5 But it's interesting because you do take help.

Speaker 5 I think that, Glennon, you are more capable of it, which I think is interesting because you've married me, who's always scanning the world for people who need help.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 2 It's like, I need freaking Captain America.

Speaker 3 If you're ever going to get a flat tire, if you're ever going to be thirsty,

Speaker 3 if you're ever going to need a haircut, just generally be around Abby. She's going to do all of those things for you.

Speaker 5 But I'm like, sister, I

Speaker 5 like will not.

Speaker 2 Do you still feel like you're that way?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I actually used to not be this way. I never took help.
I would just quit.

Speaker 5 So, so like,

Speaker 5 before I got sober,

Speaker 5 that's how I was. I would try things and they wouldn't work out and I would just quit them.
Just be like, nope, that's just not the thing. And now,

Speaker 5 since I have been sober, I like have a relentlessness that I never knew lived inside of me that I just don't ever quit.

Speaker 2 But you do ask for help now.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I have like kind of a blend a little bit.

Speaker 3 Yeah. But

Speaker 5 I wouldn't actually say I ask for help.

Speaker 3 She procures help.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 That's probably a little bit more of.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're so right. You don't ask for help.
You just arrange help.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Which is an active thing.
That's the difference. It's like, I am in control and know what I need.
I'm going to get it.

Speaker 3 I truly think there is something about that middle place where you need it and you haven't made a decision

Speaker 3 as to what you need or even identified that you are struggling. Yes.
Okay. That is the place.

Speaker 2 All right. So then here's my question about that.

Speaker 2 If you

Speaker 2 never

Speaker 2 seek other resources when you're in your messy middle,

Speaker 2 then the only power,

Speaker 2 the only choices, the only options, the only resources you are ever depending on is your own what you already know. Yes.
That's what's confusing about it.

Speaker 2 It's like when I used to say, writing's my therapy. And I'm a writer.
I write my therapist. I'm therapy all the time.
I'm always in therapy. I'm a writer.

Speaker 2 And then you were like, okay, but the only thing about that is that there's no therapist involved.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right? So, no, writing is not therapy.

Speaker 2 I guess what I'm saying is, when you are at that like beautiful place, which that breaking point, I think of that point as so luscious and fertile because

Speaker 2 you come to the end of your own

Speaker 3 power.

Speaker 2 And then there's like every other,

Speaker 2 all you have these people in your life, you have people with different perspectives, you have friends, you have God or whatever your higher power is, you have all of these, you know, metaphorical angels who are like right there.

Speaker 2 Like I picture like right on the edge of waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break. And then you break.
You're like, I can't do it. I need help.

Speaker 2 It's like, whether you do that outwardly or just inwardly, it's like rushed to you is how it feels to me.

Speaker 2 And I know that's my weirdness, but I have felt that over my life, as opposed to the way you two are doing it, which feels like you're in like a conference room by yourself with a bunch of whiteboards in your own brain.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yeah.
Yes. That's correct.
It's a good accurate. It's like a killing.
You're like, well, the board is meeting to solve this problem. Who's present? I am.
Me.

Speaker 3 I.

Speaker 5 I second.

Speaker 3 I second that motion.

Speaker 3 Well, it's unanimous. This is what we're doing.

Speaker 3 But it's just, it's just all ego.

Speaker 5 I know that that's what has helped me so much in my sobriety is like the killing off of the ego, the ability to say that my life has become unmanageable.

Speaker 2 Right. That's the first step.

Speaker 3 But even that, I think that I am moving towards that. But even that,

Speaker 3 I have determined that my life is unmanageable. It is not.
Truly, I think that's the difference. Like, yeah, yeah.
The board has met. The board has made an assessment.

Speaker 3 And the board determines that its own life is unmanageable. Like when you're talking about when I get mad, Glennon, you're like, I have determined that your life is unmanageable.

Speaker 3 And that

Speaker 3 is the place where it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 3 Yeah. That's a little too close.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I hear that. I guess.
Maybe if you came to me and said you, well, that's what an intervention is, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, many people have come to me over my life said, you're like, that is par for the course, right? We believe your life is unmanageable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2 Okay, so here's a question. When are some times, do you know of any times, besides me coming to you in a work-related thing and saying like this is unmanageable or whatever,

Speaker 2 what are some times when you have felt someone has caught me in my messy middle and I am not ready for this?

Speaker 2 Are there times where someone's just

Speaker 2 reaching out, but it feels like untenable to you because you have not decided yet.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm just wondering, what are those things that it's touching?

Speaker 3 I think it's touching that

Speaker 3 I don't have a handle on it, that I could be doing better, that

Speaker 3 I'm not

Speaker 3 in control,

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 someone's worried about me.

Speaker 2 Like, to think about, say that, say more about that, because I'm like, someone's worried about me. You just said it with the most disdain.

Speaker 3 I thought you would say that someone's worried about me. Exactly.
Worry about yourself, asshole.

Speaker 3 Literally, if I'm like moving a box and John is walking by, and I can tell he's like, I could carry that box. I'm like, I got it.
I got it. And I'm like carrying the box of like this huge.

Speaker 3 If he was to come and just pick up the box and I'd be like, thank you. But if you, if someone is watching me struggle either physically or emotionally and witnessing it,

Speaker 3 I can't handle. I can't handle.
But I am thinking of one, like I'm not impervious to this. I remember a time like when I'm thinking about when I got caught.

Speaker 3 like kind of called in on something in college when Bonzo, when I was like stealing people's food all the time, and there were notes all over my house.

Speaker 3 It was like, whoever's stealing the food, please stop. You know, I was living with 12 girls, and I'm 100% sure everyone knew it was me,

Speaker 3 but no one, it was the elephant in the room, no one talking about it. And there were notes where in the pantry, please stop stealing everyone's food because I was drinking and stuff.

Speaker 3 And she sat me down and was like, okay, so it's you. Let's just talk about it.
We know it's you. We have to stop this this and what's going on.

Speaker 3 And, and I was actually very receptive to that, which is really,

Speaker 3 yeah.

Speaker 2 So, what was different about it? I mean, Lauren Ponzo is such a badass. Imagine being that direct in college.
Okay. Yes.
So she sits you down and says, you have a problem.

Speaker 2 You're stealing all of our food, which P.S. is a very embarrassing thing because I also have been caught stealing everyone's food.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it is humiliating. It's humiliating.

Speaker 2 So why do you think in that moment, because that was someone calling you out mid-struggle you did not go and say i have a problem i keep i have an eating disorder and i'm stealing everyone's food why is that why is that a thing

Speaker 3 i think because i know

Speaker 3 that she loves me completely i know that she respects me completely it isn't like oh this poor thing You know, like I think the like

Speaker 3 poor thing situation, I'm severely allergic to. Knowing that she respects me, knowing that it was just to me.
It's not like they called a house meeting and called me out. It was friend to friend.

Speaker 3 I would never question her faith in me and respect for me. It felt like two capable people problem solving together as opposed to, oh, I pity you.
You have a problem.

Speaker 2 Okay. So it's a power.
It's a power dynamic thing. too.
It's like someone coming to you as an equal, as a problem solver, as opposed to, I am above you seeing that you have a problem.

Speaker 2 And okay, so like when I come to you, which don't worry, I haven't done it for

Speaker 3 a year. So I'm like, you've got alone.

Speaker 2 How can I do that better? Because you do so much.

Speaker 2 And sometimes I feel like it's where I'm worried or if there are ways that I can help or what am I, you know, I just, how, what am I doing that's making you freeze up like a statue that Bonzo did better?

Speaker 3 Seriously.

Speaker 2 do you think that I think that you are a workaholic? So when I say it, there's like a

Speaker 2 fixing or pitying thing involved?

Speaker 3 Well, I think, I think I probably am a workaholic. So I, I don't think that's like a news flash, probably.

Speaker 3 I mean, maybe I'm getting better. But I, no, I think it's because you're so desperate to help me that you're like, okay, here's what we're going to do.
We're going to hire this person to do this.

Speaker 3 We're We're gonna do this thing. We're gonna do, and I'm like, oh my God, now it's totally out of control.

Speaker 5 Help and

Speaker 5 the conversation of power dynamics is really important.

Speaker 5 I bet if like I were walking in your house and I saw you struggle and I just like came over and I was like, hey, let me help you with that or whatever, you'd be like, okay, but there's a thing about it having

Speaker 5 a man needing to help you, a woman, right? I think that there is this, because you will never accept help from a dude. Nope.

Speaker 3 There we go.

Speaker 2 We found my pride.

Speaker 3 And so no, God help me.

Speaker 2 Yeah. If I'm on an airplane, planes are a freaking nightmare because they're so tall and they made these things, they're like made against short people.
Okay. So I have to overhead.

Speaker 3 It's the over overhead compartment.

Speaker 2 It's the over overhead compartment. Like I get on a plane and I think of my first book's title, I'm a carry-on warrior.
I am a carry-on warrior. I can do this.
I can do this.

Speaker 2 Okay, so if I am putting that suitcase up in the carry-on bid and a man comes over and tries to help me,

Speaker 2 I swear to God, I will, I will, I will turn this plane around.

Speaker 2 If a woman helps me,

Speaker 2 I am her best friend for the rest of her life, right? Like if a man says sweetheart, calls me sweetheart, I will kill him. If a woman says sweetheart, best friend for life.

Speaker 4 Yes, power dynamic, right?

Speaker 2 There's some kind of help, power dynamic. It's like some kind of help is the kind of help that helping's all about.

Speaker 5 But it's interesting because even I would feel not allergic, but I, for me, I think I can do almost anything, like really. You do.
And that's.

Speaker 5 one of my strengths and also one of my like biggest weaknesses. And so I don't, I will never take help from a dude, like ever.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 5 And I mean, even when I would be playing against, like, we would have to play against boys in the national team to train.

Speaker 5 And I would play so fucking hard. And if anyone like fouled like one of my teammates, I would, I would two-foot tackle that fucker.

Speaker 5 I would, because I just did not want them to believe that we were weaker in any way.

Speaker 5 So I feel like this help conversation is about this like deep underlining, underlying like feeling of weakness and the relationship between power and gender.

Speaker 5 Like, we put on all these roles as like women and men that then we're just fighting our whole lives against.

Speaker 2 So, is it like we can only accept help from people who we sense believe that we are equals? Yes. We need to sense that the person

Speaker 2 is coming to us from a place of what you said, two people who are equals solving a problem together.

Speaker 3 and to people who

Speaker 3 have consensus over that this is a problem. Yeah.
That's for me. Like I have to just from where I sit be at the place where I'm like, I have a problem

Speaker 3 before someone can come in and help me with a problem. That's right.

Speaker 3 It is that place of struggle when I have not decided I need help, where someone wants to intervene and help me. And that is a threat to me.

Speaker 2 Okay. So, what is something that you need help with?

Speaker 2 If you had to think of one thing

Speaker 2 that you need in an area that you feel like you need help in,

Speaker 3 I can think of 12.

Speaker 5 That we both need?

Speaker 2 No, that each of you. Like, pod squad, think about what if you could have help in one area.

Speaker 5 You can think of 12 for yourself. Yeah.
Oh, I thought you were putting it on us and I was starting to feel vulnerable. No, no, no.

Speaker 2 I'm not haven't even thought about you.

Speaker 5 I was like, this is exactly what sister was just talking about.

Speaker 3 Oh, absolutely not. I'm not.
No.

Speaker 2 Like, what's something that you could use some help in an area of your life?

Speaker 5 Wow, this is really hard for me.

Speaker 3 I think I need help in

Speaker 3 my house

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 in just our daily functioning, because John travels so much, there's this extra,

Speaker 3 like, I'm trying to do work and life when that margin margin of

Speaker 3 what he does is gone.

Speaker 3 We're operating on such a thin margin of capacity that then it's like, whoa, everything's to shit.

Speaker 3 And so, I think building in more margin in our life through some help, so that it isn't always like we're always at a nine and a half, so the tiniest little bump will take us to a 12.

Speaker 3 That would be helpful. Cool.

Speaker 2 What about you?

Speaker 5 I'm trying to figure out why this is so embarrassing.

Speaker 3 You feel embarrassed? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do you want to stop this?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 5 This is something that just kind of came to me, but

Speaker 5 you know, like parental figures that have life experience,

Speaker 5 that I feel like we are in a state of our life that I don't have

Speaker 5 somebody else else to go to for like life advice. Like, what should we do here? How do we plan for the next five or ten years?

Speaker 2 Like, how do we raise grownups and how do we be this this phase of our lives? Yeah.

Speaker 3 We don't have it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 No, the biggest questions I'm asking right now are like, how do I be a better parent? I don't need like tactile help.

Speaker 5 Like, I can, I'm really good at doing stuff, but also I am very good at outsourcing.

Speaker 5 Like, if we don't have something or I can't figure something out, I will call somebody that knows better.

Speaker 2 Um, but like, wisdom, you, you're yeah, like life wisdom.

Speaker 5 That's that's really something that I need help with.

Speaker 3 That like, you need like a grandma, yes, be like, baby, baby, this is what you do, yes, or like, also, just don't worry about it, you know, like that is real, that's real help to me is somebody who can kind of

Speaker 5 take all of whatever worries I have and make them not so big.

Speaker 3 I feel like I have that.

Speaker 3 You do.

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Speaker 2 When our youngest was little, we'd have this trip, we'd go to the beach. I had this big bag,

Speaker 2 like a tote bag full of beach stuff, you know, the mom beach bag.

Speaker 2 And Emma would always say, 1500 snacks and a shovel. Exactly.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 she would always say, can I help you? It was so sweet. Can I help you carry the bag?

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 2 she would put one of the

Speaker 2 handles on her shoulder,

Speaker 2 but she was like 13 inches shorter than me.

Speaker 2 So I'd be like, this bitch is not helping at all.

Speaker 3 Like

Speaker 3 she just made my load.

Speaker 2 She's like worse because she's pretending to help, but she's all the way down there. I'm carrying it all still, but I have to pretend that she's carrying it.

Speaker 3 Now I'm carrying her body as well as the bag.

Speaker 2 Exactly. But this is so cheesy, but I

Speaker 2 think about this all the time because I think everything is so heavy and I'm carrying all of this, my family,

Speaker 3 work,

Speaker 2 the world, all these things. And then I just think of whatever my idea of God is.
I'm like the little amma

Speaker 2 pretending to carry it, but actually none of the weight is really on me.

Speaker 2 And there's this higher power, which to me is this old lady with gray, curly hair.

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 2 and i don't know what her face looks like she just has gray curly hair and a flowy outfit on and she's really carrying the whole thing like i'm not carrying any of it

Speaker 2 it's none of it i think i'm carrying it i'm not carrying any of it god's looking at me like this bitch is complaining

Speaker 2 She's got no weight. She doesn't even know it.

Speaker 3 That's awesome. It's like the footprints in the sand.
They always say, Jesus. It's like the new meme is the footprints in the sand.
And the graphic is like, this bitch,

Speaker 3 she's skinny. Oh, I'm so stressed.
This is so hard.

Speaker 3 And God's like, I've got the whole bag.

Speaker 2 Just walk.

Speaker 3 I love that. I mean, I think it, a lot of it has to do too, with like being a burden,

Speaker 3 like thinking that we're a burden on someone. And so when I was started to think about this, and I read this social psychologist, Heidi Grant wrote a book

Speaker 3 called Reinforcements, Harvard Business Review book. And it's all about, it's all the research on help.

Speaker 3 Why we don't ask,

Speaker 3 why we should ask, what happens when we do, all this stuff.

Speaker 3 I feel like one of the reasons people don't ask for help is that they, we think, that people don't want to help us, that we are bothering them or burdening them or whatever.

Speaker 3 But actually, the research shows that

Speaker 3 our perception is completely wrong about this, that people are twice as likely to want to help us as we perceive them to be. And also,

Speaker 3 what's wild to me is that people like us more

Speaker 3 when they've helped us.

Speaker 2 Yes, that makes sense to me. That's right.
Because I'm saying to our kid who comes down to the dinner table and is like, it's done. It's all done.

Speaker 2 I'm like, oh my God, God, we just missed all of the stuff that makes us closer.

Speaker 2 You skipped over the entire part where we get to know each other better, where we build trust in each other, where we feel more deeply connected because you think this is some kind of a sufficiency contest.

Speaker 2 It's like we were about to take a road trip together and you took a plane.

Speaker 2 We were like getting packed up, the car packed up for this trip we were going to take where we were going to see all these sites and we were going to talk talk and we were going to talk and it was going to be annoying and take a long time but it was going to be so such a bonding experience and you called us

Speaker 2 from good news airport where you just landed and we're like good news i'm already here and i was like okay that's efficient but you've just we've missed the whole trip together

Speaker 2 that's what we're doing here together to be in those really vulnerable places together and not have a clue and then somehow get through it together because self-sufficiency

Speaker 2 is a connection blocker.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it is. Such an awesome point and such a powerful analogy of the ride and the flight.

Speaker 3 The even on like the concrete little things, even like letting your neighbor order pizza for your family when you're sick, the data shows that the

Speaker 3 helping someone else is one of the quickest, most effective ways that you feel better about yourself.

Speaker 3 And so asking and receiving help from people

Speaker 3 is most of the most effective ways to make them feel good. And it's like that Maya Angelou quote of people won't remember what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

Speaker 3 When you allow someone to help you, they feel good

Speaker 3 and then they associate that good feeling with you.

Speaker 2 Yes, because you feel powerful and you feel important and you feel necessary to that other person. It's one thing to feel like someone's impressive.

Speaker 5 Like you like, oh, wow, good job.

Speaker 2 Impressive, but that's different from feeling connected and needed. Like when my kid sits down and says it's done,

Speaker 2 I'm like, oh, they didn't need me at all.

Speaker 2 I'm not necessary

Speaker 2 at all here. What's the point?

Speaker 3 Yes, the necessary thing is beautiful.

Speaker 3 I was listening to a TED talk that this former kindergarten teacher, Miss Kim, gave about, it was all about what we have to learn from kids about asking for help.

Speaker 3 And she was talking about how as a first-time teacher, she was just waiting for the moment, like when a kid, a kindergartner falls and they get hurt, they don't start crying.

Speaker 3 They look up and scan for a person they can trust. And if they find them and lock eyes with them, then they start crying.
They won't cry until they have locked eyes with someone that they trust.

Speaker 3 And she said she kept seeing it happen with other teachers and she was waiting for the moment where it happened for her.

Speaker 3 And this little kid in her class, Sam, who was always so self-sufficient, he like wouldn't accept help in any way. And he fell down and he locked eyes with her and he burst out crying.

Speaker 3 And she was like, I am valued and needed. And you have just proven that I'm trustworthy to me by allowing yourself to crumble in front of me.

Speaker 2 That's it.

Speaker 5 I wonder if part of his consciousness, I'm just like still on the power part of it. Like, if he's like super efficient, he's like the go-getter in the class.
He's like, I only trust the teacher here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, all you other assholes.

Speaker 5 Like that power differential.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 In a marriage, in a business partnership with all of us, it's like, how do we,

Speaker 5 how do we cut through here? Like, how do we,

Speaker 5 how do you and I, Glennon?

Speaker 2 I mean, I would be so honored if, and I don't know, you all witness

Speaker 2 a lot of my moments, I think, of my middle parts where I haven't figured it all out, but I would love to get a message from,

Speaker 2 and I feel like you do, you do it now, and from a message from the middle is what we're calling this here.

Speaker 3 Like, that's like, I'm fucked.

Speaker 2 Those moments where you're just like, I haven't figured it all out yet. I'm just

Speaker 2 feeling

Speaker 2 lost or I'm feeling unmanageable or I'm whatever.

Speaker 2 It's just those moments. A message from those moments, I think would be interesting.
And I also

Speaker 3 will

Speaker 2 promise to not

Speaker 2 try to figure anything out, just to be like

Speaker 2 here with you. Yeah.

Speaker 3 I wonder if something practical, because I think we all, at least speaking for myself, have to wait. Cause it's hard for everyone.
Everyone's struggling.

Speaker 3 Everyone, like work, family, everything, everyone's a mess, right? So we're almost like making a judgment call that ours has reached a higher level than yours to ask for help.

Speaker 3 And since everyone's drowning, it feels somehow like cutting in line to say.

Speaker 2 That's not it. It's not it.
I know.

Speaker 3 Okay. Okay.
Because like, I know that's not it.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying that's how it feels. Got it.
Right.

Speaker 3 Sorry.

Speaker 3 And so I think a practical application of this might be in your friend groups, in our even in our work situation, which is like a friend and work thing to like every week, you actually have to bring one thing you're struggling with, or you actually have to bring one thing that if you were to get help on, it would be this thing.

Speaker 3 Because it also goes to this other part of the research, which is

Speaker 3 this thing called the illusion of transparency, where we don't notice other people's need as much as they think we do.

Speaker 3 It's called the illusion of transparency, the research shows, and it's the tendency for people to overestimate the degree to which their personal mental state is known by others,

Speaker 3 and a tendency for people to overstate how well they understand others' personal mental state.

Speaker 3 So, we are operating, this is universally true, we are operating in a world in which

Speaker 3 we think other people understand where we are, and they think they understand where we are, and we are both wrong.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 3 So, this is where it comes from: of like that idea of like, why aren't people helping me? They see I'm struggling. And no, they don't.
Like they literally don't.

Speaker 3 We have to use our words because everyone thinks they're, they know where someone else is and everyone thinks someone else knows where they are and no one does. Yeah.
Okay.

Speaker 2 All right. So then two things then.
We need to report accurately.

Speaker 5 From your own mouth.

Speaker 2 Yeah. From your own mouth with someone, right? Or like even to self might be good.
Like even in real life.

Speaker 3 Self first, yeah. Right.

Speaker 2 Report to self what you need or to another what you need.

Speaker 5 Not even what you need. Maybe you don't know what you need, but like what you're struggling with.

Speaker 3 Right. And it's not happening.

Speaker 2 And then believing if you share it with someone that it's a gift, not a burden. That's right.
Because

Speaker 2 we're not saying you go to your friend who's also dripping with children and say, I need someone to cook me dinner five days a week. You're just saying I'm struggling.

Speaker 2 And then that other person, you think you shouldn't bring it to your friend because your friend is also struggling. And then you're just adding another burden to your friend.

Speaker 2 But actually, your friend more than anything needs somebody else to say, I

Speaker 2 that's why people love this podcast.

Speaker 3 Because we're just fucking mess. We're a cry for help.
Like, we're wink twice, pod squad, if you really need to.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. I feel like generally

Speaker 2 the pod squad doesn't feel like this is a burden when we talk about things like this. It feels like a gift because people feel less alone.
And that lessens our struggle, just the knowing

Speaker 2 that we're not alone.

Speaker 5 And it might give somebody the ability to help.

Speaker 2 Who has some help?

Speaker 5 Which could be something that's really good for them in a life full of chaos and uncontrollables.

Speaker 3 I also think there's that, you know how they always say, check on your strong friends.

Speaker 3 I think that also in this book that i read about this thing called the diffusion of responsibility which is the more people that can help you so the wider your

Speaker 3 your network your support system seems to be the least likely it is that anyone will help you oh this is like the phenomenon of

Speaker 2 Too many people.

Speaker 2 It's the phenomenon of about how when children are swimming, the more adults that are watching the more likely there'll be an accident

Speaker 3 because if no if everyone's in charge no one's in charge right it's yeah so if you if you're somebody who appears to have a lot of people who could help you it's even more important that you ask for help because data shows that you are the least likely anyone is going to ever intervene on you need to actually directly ask

Speaker 3 which is odd, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 We're talking about this whole like interpersonal

Speaker 3 struggle with help, but then there's this actual bucket. If you need practical help for your business, for your whatever you're doing, there are these

Speaker 3 three things

Speaker 3 that

Speaker 3 are

Speaker 3 the ways you will actually get help. So this isn't like, I'm struggling and I need to get sober, I, my family's falling apart or whatever but practical three practical things if you

Speaker 3 actually need tangible concrete help

Speaker 3 one i'm calling say no to the vague fave okay

Speaker 3 fave okay yes so this is this idea of when someone writes to you and they're like yeah we should get coffee

Speaker 3 or i'd like to pick your brain

Speaker 3 or can we connect these are hard no's right they are bad for you.

Speaker 3 They don't like people do not, they want to know what they're being asked and they want to, you to be specific and they are demotivated when they don't understand the impact.

Speaker 3 So you need to say, I want to ask of you X.

Speaker 3 And if you do,

Speaker 3 it will result in Y.

Speaker 3 Okay. That's what you do.
Also.

Speaker 3 This is terrible news. Number two is you have to do it over the phone or in person.
What? Because yes,

Speaker 3 you are 34

Speaker 3 more times likely to get help if you ask over the phone or in person than you are if you write an email. 34 times.
It takes 200 emails to reach the same success rate as six in-person requests.

Speaker 3 You're kidding me.

Speaker 2 Okay, but that's a boundary thing.

Speaker 3 You can just call people.

Speaker 3 Well, no, I'm talking about if you're in a situation where you are having the grand opening of your business, you send out a mass email to everyone on your list,

Speaker 3 you have to do that

Speaker 3 to 200 people,

Speaker 3 or you get on the phone and you say, hey,

Speaker 3 I know you're busy. I've been working really hard on this and it would mean so much to me if you would come to my grand opening and I celebrate your no as much as I celebrate your yes.

Speaker 3 I just want you to know that having you there wouldn't mean a lot to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's cool. I like to celebrate your no as much as your yes.
We always do that, Ceci.

Speaker 3 We always tell women.

Speaker 3 We always do that because it's true.

Speaker 2 We will honor your no because that's equally badass.

Speaker 3 Don't you think it goes with the whole idea of like diffusion of responsibility? If you know you're on a mass email list,

Speaker 3 you don't think it is important that you are there. You just think it's important that some people are there.
And we think

Speaker 3 they've got it covered. Look, they have this huge network.
It actually doesn't matter if about me. Totally.
Someone says, you matter, this is why you matter. Here's what your impact will be on me.

Speaker 3 Suddenly, again,

Speaker 3 the greatest, quickest way for me to feel good about myself is to help someone. You mean I can help someone?

Speaker 2 Right. What I just want to emphasize there is I don't think it's about the phone call.
I think it's about the personalization.

Speaker 2 So whatever that means, because for example, if someone called me, I would be like, this person doesn't know who I am. They don't respect any of my boundaries.

Speaker 2 They know, they don't care that I hate the phone. Like, so I don't think it's about the phone.

Speaker 2 I think it's, I think what that study is saying, what's beneath, what's underneath the thing is it's the personalization that's the showing.

Speaker 3 Your particular help matters. You're also a writer.

Speaker 3 You're also a writer.

Speaker 5 So you prefer to write.

Speaker 2 Okay. So personalization, say no to the vague fave, make it personal.

Speaker 3 Yes. And then also,

Speaker 3 I feel like some people try to think that if you do this for me, I'll do this for you, that that's like an evening, that's making it less of a burden.

Speaker 3 But yeah, the study showed that that, when you make it in exchange, like if you do this, I'd love to,

Speaker 3 I don't know, what do people like to do? Take you to lunch. I'd love to, I will do it for you, whatever it is, that it actually diminishes you making an offer.

Speaker 3 connected to your request diminishes the likelihood they will do it for you.

Speaker 3 Because again, people want to be able to feel effective and helpful. They don't want whatever it is that you're willing to give.

Speaker 5 That's interesting. So that's what's quid pro quo.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it feels icky is the way that, the only way that I can describe that one. If somebody says, I really need you to do this, it feels like I could, my, my best self could step up to that.

Speaker 2 But if somebody says to me, if I, if, if you do this, I will.

Speaker 3 post your whatever if i do this i if you do this i will it feels like my my worst self is being invited forward like i'm trying to get something instead of give something well it's a manipulation which makes me feel not so good it's a manipulation right and if you do need something you would rather have it be like i helped you now i know in the future since we have a relationship that's now built on this since i now the data shows feel closer to you since i've helped you i will then organically reach out to you if i need something because i feel closer to you yeah not

Speaker 3 because i did this for you i want you to do this for me it's just a relationship thing.

Speaker 3 So I think they're all helpful things on helps, but just this wasn't in the research, but I just think anecdotally, there's also this boy who cried help phenomenon

Speaker 3 where I do feel

Speaker 3 like I have certain people in my life that if they say, I need your help, I will quite literally drop everything. and be like, this is a first class emergency.
I will do anything right now.

Speaker 3 And then I have some people in my life that say, I need help. I'm like, give it 20 minutes.
Yes.

Speaker 3 It's not going to be a thing. So I do feel in all this effort to ask for help, it's like concentrated family time.
It's like vital for health and joy, but it should be used sparingly. Like

Speaker 3 when you actually

Speaker 5 need it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's why I like the idea of God.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 why do you like the the idea of God? Because tell us again.

Speaker 2 Because the reason I like the idea of God is because I don't have to worry about that.

Speaker 2 Like I can say help 49,000 times a day and do.

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 2 am with Liz Gilbert about, you know, she talked about on her episode about how every minute she's just like, I can't do this. Can you do it? I can't do this.
Can you do it? To God all day. God.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, I can't do this meeting. I can't do this phone call.
I can't order pizza directly. Can you just do everything all day? And then, and then you just,

Speaker 2 you never run out of helps.

Speaker 2 So many helps.

Speaker 3 Goddess forever helps.

Speaker 3 Maybe you should try that with a remote, Glennon. Have you tried that? Ask God's help with the remote.

Speaker 2 God's like, bitch, figure out that remote for God's sake. For myself's sake.

Speaker 2 Okay, love bugs. What's going to be our next right thing here? I think that it would be cool for all pod squatters just to think about if

Speaker 5 what they need help with?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like what area of their life are they in the messy middle of that they haven't figured out what's needed, but they just know that something is

Speaker 3 help-wise. Two parts.
Figure out what you need help with and maybe share it with one person. Yeah, or maybe they could share it with us.

Speaker 2 They could call us. Yeah.
Because wouldn't it be cool if we had like category? What if everybody says the exact same thing? I just do.

Speaker 2 I want to know what the pod squad feels in the messy middle of like what they need the most help with um yes right so call us 747-200-530-7 747-200-5307.

Speaker 2 Yeah, wouldn't it be cool if everybody told us what they needed help with and then we could somehow make a whole help

Speaker 2 encyclopedia? Okay, we love you, pod squad. Thanks for helping us through this really freaking weird, hard life.
We love you so much.

Speaker 3 We love you.

Speaker 2 See you next time. Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 3 This is the most important thing for the pod.

Speaker 2 While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.