Becoming Full of Yourself | Austin Channing Brown

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Austin Channing Brown is an author and speaker providing inspired leadership on racial justice in America.

She is the New York Times best-selling author of I'm Still Here, Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, Arisa's book club pick.

Her latest book, Full of Myself, Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession, is available now.

Okay, Pod Squad, first of all, you should know that before we begin, our guest today is one of my favorite people on the entire planet.

True.

Is that not true?

That's true.

That is true.

So the person who is here is the artist, the justice champion, Austin Channing Brown.

Hello, my loves.

I'm so glad to see your faces.

It's been too long.

Austin has a new book out.

The world is very lucky.

Okay.

And Austin's new book is called Full of Myself.

And it is.

I think the book for right now.

The book for right now.

it is the liberation story of a woman reclaiming her full humanity in a world trying to keep her from that

and i sent austin an email this morning asking her if i could open up the interview with this story so when i got an early copy that's the the best perk of my job I sat down on the couch, as Abby knows, with my dogs and my tea, and I didn't move from the first page until the last.

Everyone else carried along with their day around me.

We did.

Mm-hmm.

And so did she.

Yeah.

Because your writing just blew my mind in this book, which you know, because every 10 minutes I would stop and text you pictures of your own pages

with just like WTF, question mark, question,

and you're like, please.

Okay.

So because of my love for you and because of my lifelong attempt to re-embody myself, I related so freaking deeply to this book.

And so after I finished the last page, I wrote you and told you that.

And you wrote back in true Austin fashion with a very loving

email that said something like this.

That's wonderful, honey.

As

you do.

Say to me.

And you said something like, I definitely believe there's healing and learning in this book for everyone.

But

can you, Austin, share with us what was the but in that email?

Yeah, I think it's really easy to read this book in the genre of self-help, right?

Self-help for women.

My publisher would actually love it if I would just get on here and say this book is for all women.

That's my job.

They'd be very happy with me.

But the truth is, this work is just as connected to my justice work as everything else that I've done.

And for me, the work of becoming full of ourselves is still justice work.

Right?

There was a whole era of women's self-help books that in their introduction said,

listen, I know patriarchy is a thing.

And I know racism is a thing.

And I know homophobia is a thing.

But we're not going to talk about any of that.

They set the expectation right from the top

that even though we know there are all kinds of injustices in the world, we're not going to talk about any of that.

And this book is the opposite.

I want to frame what it is we're experiencing as women, as black people, as marginalized people, as queer people, right?

That we are not just timid.

We are not just lacking self-confidence.

We are not just quirky, right?

That becoming full of ourselves is a justice issue.

We have to swim against the status quo in order to become full of ourselves.

Yes.

And that I do not want to get lost in any conversation I have about this book.

Yeah.

Before we move on from the email, I just sat with it because, you know, you were saying to me, that's, this is great.

Like, I hope this helps you with your eating disorder treatment.

Also,

it's for black women and it's about.

black women.

And it was so kind and so beautiful.

And I just felt like this email is proof of Austin's being full of herself.

Like in the behind the scenes moments, I imagine you felt something in your body when you read that email.

This is what I want to get to, your embodiment in that moment.

Yes,

because it's really important.

Well, first of all, I have gone through all kinds of eras, seasons in my justice work, right?

Who I was when I was doing this at 21 is not who I am at 40.

Right.

And one of the things that I have been convinced of, or is sort of my lifelong desire to prove with my work, is that the world has so much to learn when black women are centered.

So often when we do racism work, in particular racial justice work, we center the white folks in the room.

We try to make sure that you all can catch up.

We try to answer all your questions.

We have tissues prepared for you.

We, right?

Like everything gets centered around you and your experience.

And over the last few years, my deep desire has been to see what happens when we center the voices of Black women.

And I am convinced that everybody in the room actually learns more when Black women are able to have a conversation amongst ourselves with others present.

Right.

Than would happen if I just tried to communicate to you and you alone.

And I think that is what I'm subtly, not subtly trying to show with this book.

I am thrilled that you read it and thought, oh my God,

me and my own embodiment, right, is being spoken to in this moment.

But I don't want to lose the fact that you are also queer,

right?

I don't want to lose the fact that you are also a woman.

living under patriarchy.

I don't want to lose the fact that for years, instead of being called a writer, you were called a blogger.

I don't want to, do you know what I mean?

Like, I want to bring all of the ways that all of you have had to swim against the status quo to the forefront.

And I hope it touches things personally, but I want it to be able to travel with you on your journey in the totality of your humanity.

So is the difference then

we're having this conversation and what

a white lady like me might do in those moments is say, okay, let's all talk about our different embodiments and then you go and then I'll go and then we'll find how they're the same, right?

That's true.

Because P.S., that was my first version of this interview.

So

great.

I'm learning so much.

Second.

The second version of that is you just keep talking.

And if I will find myself somewhere in there, but you just keep going.

That's right.

That's right.

And by doing that, you actually uncover more.

Yes.

Right.

You make connections between your ED.

Your ED does not become a quirk of yours.

It does not become this individualistic failure of yours, right?

Your ED is connected to the expectations of a nation that does not like women.

Right.

And so that tie to justice work, that tie to systems, that tie to the status quo, that matters

to the work that you're doing and the way that you understand yourself.

Okay, can you talk to us now

about

what it means to empty yourself?

For people who are listening right now and are saying, okay, wow, that was a beginning.

of an interview.

Now,

now they're with us, Austin.

You're like, wow.

yeah now tell us what you are talking about take us all to a moment okay so

one of the first stories in the book is about me being fired

just ruined what little self-esteem i still had at the moment okay friends My whole life, I have been the good girl, right?

I have been the girlfriend that parents love more than the boyfriend loves me.

Do you know what I mean?

Like I am the straight A student.

I'm the, right?

I do not

fail.

And yet, I was sitting in this mega church where I was on staff, being told, being listed, listed the number of ways that I was failing

before being fired.

And I could feel myself getting smaller and smaller and smaller because I had worked so hard to empty myself.

I had worked hard to be a person who was a cultural fit.

What does that mean?

So, at the job I worked at, all the women did not sound like this.

They sounded like this.

They sounded like me.

That's right.

Okay.

Right?

And so, every morning they would greet each other, not like, hey, Glennon, which is what I would do, right?

They'd be like, hi.

And without even thinking about it, friends, not on purpose, not like

consciously trying to fit in, I would model back what they were doing.

Yeah.

Right.

And so I no longer talked like this.

I found myself talking like this all the time.

And I didn't even notice it until my husband was walking with me one day and he heard me do it.

And he was like, who is that?

And I said, I don't know.

That is a damn good question.

I have no idea who that is.

Right?

Because I didn't hear it happening.

I was the fish in water.

Yes.

Right?

But there were expectations that I would change the way that I speak, that I would change hair, that I would change my look, my dress, right?

There were expectations that I would think like them, that I would support all the opinions, that I would use my blackness to pat them on the back for any justice

adjacent.

I can't actually call it justice work.

Justice adjacent work.

Right.

But the expectation was that I would use whatever marginalized status I had.

to support them

without the expectation of being supported in who I am.

Oh my God.

That is fucking good.

Right?

Yes.

You became a cultural fit.

Except I couldn't do it, which is why I got fired.

Right.

Right.

Right.

There were some things that was happening subconsciously.

But when I got put in a room and was asked to defend our community, not talking about Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, I couldn't do it.

Right.

Right.

Right.

And that was the moment.

That was the moment.

That was the moment I knew I was going to be fired.

That was the moment.

And this moment happens to all of us.

Yes.

And the question is: do I want to belong to this community or do I want to belong to myself?

Or do I still keep belonging to myself?

Because this is the shit that happened as the only queer one on a lot of my teams growing up.

Yes.

And that it comes down to a moment.

Yes.

But we are so quick to stop belonging to ourselves and stick to the belonging of the community.

How did you, A, realize that moment was happening and B, decide, okay, I belong to myself and my integrity first?

That's right.

A couple things.

One, I want to say that that is such a major aha because most people skip over it.

When they get to that moment, there is no pause.

Right.

Right.

There is no pause to even ask the question: who am I going to belong to in this moment?

And usually what happens is all the perks of belonging become more important.

That's right.

The promotion, the leadership development, the increase in money, the invitation to the,

I don't know, golf trip, yacht thing, whatever.

You know what I mean?

Right?

But it comes with perks, right?

And so often we prioritize those perks

over belonging to ourselves.

Right.

And so I think in all sincerity, what was really helpful for me was to have a different community to belong to.

Of course.

Yeah.

So within this larger structure, I have my own multicultural team who is trying to lead justice work.

We are putting on workshops.

We are leading trainings.

We are talking about the culture of our church.

We are talking about what we would like to see change.

And now I have a responsibility to them, not just to myself.

Right?

I already have a community of belonging.

That's right.

And often, when we try to start doing justice work, we try to do it as an isolated being.

And it's a quick way to burn out.

It's a quick way to become isolated.

It's a quick way to become depressed.

I tell

everyone when you enter into justice work, the first thing you should be doing is not speaking up.

The first thing you should be doing is finding your community.

Yeah, you told me that a decade ago.

Yep.

Who are you doing this work with?

Because that's a defense.

From what I hear from you, finding your community

basically defends you and makes you you immune to the threat of the withdrawal of belonging in community if you're not going to follow the rules over here.

Yeah.

What essentially happens is you become proud of being the troublemaker.

Yeah, exactly.

You're not even seeking belonging in the community.

Yeah.

That isn't the goal.

You don't care about the yachts.

You don't care about the golf trips.

You don't care about the leadership development.

You've already made peace with not getting the promotion.

Right.

At this point, you do kind of want to hold on to the job because benefits,

right?

But your sense of belonging is not at all wrapped up in this place, right?

Your sense of belonging becomes rooted in this community of people who do see your full humanity and are willing to fight alongside you.

So you're like a Trojan horse almost.

You're a Trojan horse.

You're in there, but you're like the Jesus thing.

I am in this world, but I am not of this world.

Exactly.

My loyalty is not here.

My loyalty is out there.

I am here

actually to fuck all this up.

That part.

Yeah.

Most of the time we don't know that going in, though.

Right.

Right.

Cause because there's the really pretty mission statements and there's the, right, everybody knows the language, or at least they used to, you know, of course.

When it was like, right, when it was cool, when it was trendy, right?

And so you would, you would get sucked in, right?

Because you would be like, oh my gosh, I see what you could become and you believe in this too.

Great.

And

then you discover that the true desire, right, is that you would empty yourself, that you would use your marginalized identities

to applaud them.

Right.

And when that doesn't happen, you need a place that you already belong to.

Yeah.

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Can you take us to the micro of that?

Because that is

freaking perfect.

The incredible part of this book in particular is that you have always been a genius at explaining to us the macro of what's going on.

In this book, you're taking it into the moment and into the body and explaining how it happens moment by moment in a way that we can feel it in your body, which is the genius part of this book, because

in a moment of fascism, the only way to resist is by being fully in your body, right?

We know this.

So

let's take it to the moment where you walk into your white church.

If you, Austin, don't bubble yourself up, if you don't white up your voice, if you don't become,

let's just say you dared

to say hello.

That's right.

Tell us what would happen for real.

Yes.

Well, let me tell you what does happen because the moment my husband said that, I was like, shit, right?

I was like, that has got to stop immediately.

Right.

And what happens is I get a performance review that says, you don't seem happy here.

Right.

I get pulled into an office and my supervisor says, you know, Lisa said that she had an interaction with you and you just weren't very gracious, you know?

Like, I just really, I really think you need to open your heart and just, you know, be more gracious to people who are really trying, you know.

I get called names, right?

I get called troublemaker is never one.

And I'm so sorry that I can't think of like one that I was actually called.

but i definitely remember being told that i was suffering from group think

right there were things that i was suffering from right that were problematic in the way that i was thinking and the way that i was seeing and that's what the status quo does when you do not meet the status quo it has names for you yes

It turns you into a problem.

You are the problem.

And if you would just be kinder, nicer, more bubbly, and it depends on the culture that you're in.

Right?

That was one culture.

But there was a whole nother white culture that I found myself in that was the opposite.

It was very like hippie, very, let's all do everything together.

Let's eat together.

Let's work together.

Let's go to church together.

Let's live in the same neighborhood.

Let's live in the same house.

Right.

And I was like, I don't want to do all this.

That seems like a lot.

That seems like an awful lot of togetherness.

You know what I mean?

Right.

So, white culture can definitely change.

Yes.

Right.

It isn't that it's the same everywhere.

The problem is that it thinks that it's always right.

And therefore, if you don't conform to it, then you are wrong.

Not what you're doing is wrong.

In the words of June Jordan, you are wrong.

And you have to say to yourself, wrong is not my name.

Okay, so one version of this is you're sitting with your coworkers

and you dare to tell them that you actually don't think that Hillary's going to beat Trump.

We're in like our hopeful, positive, of course, this is going to all work out vibe.

Yeah.

You dare to say, I don't know about that.

Yeah.

I'm living in the Midwest.

I'm looking on a lot of banners.

I'm looking at a lot of flags.

I'm a black woman on the internet.

The people at your picnic,

at your Sunday dinner table are saying something real different in my DMs.

Okay.

They're tweeting something real different to me.

Right.

And so I'm, yeah, I'm having this discussion with coworkers who I love and adore and trust.

Very encouraging, loving environment.

But when I say, I,

guys, it's summer of 2016.

And I'm like, I think he's going to win.

And

laughter.

Full body, red-faced laughter.

Now, I have experienced laughter that was mean, right?

Laughter that was like laughing at me.

This didn't feel like that.

But it was that my notion,

my assessment was funny.

And negative.

It was negative, Austin.

Oh,

listen.

You wrote this sentence, which I just put the book down.

You wrote, black people, especially black women, are told we have an attitude problem when what we actually have is insider information.

Oh.

Like if your publishers don't put that on a billboard in Times Square, they're not doing it right.

This is a sentence and a half.

Tell us more.

What do you mean by insider information?

I know white people

better than white people know white people.

And white people really don't like that because white people really want to be able to hide.

Right.

They really, really want to be able to hide.

And my radar, right?

And by mine, I mean the radar of black women, right?

To be like,

something's problematic here.

Right.

Yeah.

Something's off here.

Even if it's as simple as you have opted into the belonging of the status quo.

Right.

That what black women are not saying is, oh, actually, white women are wrong.

Right.

Oh, actually, you are wrong.

What we are saying is all of this is wrong, and even you are not being honored by it.

There is actually a better way that we could do this,

but you don't believe that I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

And is it like,

is there a version of it that's like, you can only know someone by how they treat someone who has less perceived power in a culture than you?

Because like, for example, our kid said to us recently, what do you think of so-and-so?

It was a parent in the community.

And I said, it doesn't matter what we think of them because they treat us a certain way because we're famous.

So

I can't tell you what that person is like.

I will never be able to tell you.

Ask somebody else's parents.

Is it like that?

It's like people.

We put on an act for each other and then the mask comes off when you're with anyone who has less perceived power.

And that's why you have insider information.

It is.

Who that person is could fluctuate, right?

Sometimes it's perceived power.

Sometimes it's a belief that everyone here is the same, that there is no outsider, right?

So

there's a person of color in the group, but we thought everybody here was white.

You know,

ultimately,

it is virtually impossible not to be who you actually are.

And you can put on a facade and you can wear a mask and you could try your damnedest to appear something.

But until you start to work toward being that person,

we can all see you.

Well, that's unfortunate.

It reminds me of, it's like the bully on the playground doesn't think they're a bully.

That's right.

You know, like

the person in the friend group who's the asshole doesn't

think that they're the asshole.

It feels like this.

It's like when you are in the outside,

looking in, you see it all.

When you are in the inside, you can't see everything.

That's right.

Yeah.

And how much more freeing is it, right, to be in the group that says, Austin, you are a little bossy.

And I can be like, I know, what is that about?

Right?

Because now we're not confused.

There's no mask.

And now I make a decision.

Am I going to work on it?

Right.

Or are in our friendship group, are we all just going to like laugh at me and right turn into a jokes?

You know, exactly.

But there are so many people who are so afraid.

of going to that place where the biases exist, where the places in us that is selfish and that can be mean and that is frightened and that is scared and has all these hurts and all these wounds, it is so much easier to just not go there.

Right.

But it's also keeping us from both our full humanity and the ability to recognize the full humanity of other people.

Yep.

It made me think of this, Austin, when you were talking about how, you know, you're always the good girl.

You don't fail.

You get straight A's.

You achieve, you know, give me a challenge.

I achieve it.

That's right.

And

you are in this moment, and I'm wondering if you can take us back here where you are asked to read

a reading for the service

and you're doing it and you're being critiqued left and right and a little bit more of this, a little bit less of that, a little bit.

And then you say,

Under those watchful eyes, it dawned on me that my best would never be good enough.

My best was not what they were looking for.

They were looking for their best wrapped in my body.

That's right.

Oh my God.

Their definition of good, their definition of right, their definition of leadership.

I could see it so clearly and I had no desire to reach it.

I did not want to be rhythmless.

Yes.

Tell us about that.

At every level of these, there's this like incredible political worldly betrayal.

Yes.

And there's also this

feels this when I read that, I felt so heartbroken for you.

It felt to me like you arrive at this moment.

You've done everything right.

You're ready to and you realize

doesn't fucking matter.

Nope.

Tell us what it means to be out of rhythm.

Okay.

So I'm so sorry.

This is like very churchy today, friends.

I don't feel like it is.

I'm not churchy.

Okay, great.

I just feel like there's a, I just feel like white church, black church just offers a lot of rich opportunities.

Talk about how we got here.

Fertile ground, if you will.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

There's lots here.

The garden is plentiful.

So if I was at a white church, right, and I heard someone preaching on Exodus, on Moses, right?

It would probably sound like,

and Moses really struggled with his own leadership, you know,

and he had to work up the courage.

He needed a good partner in Aaron, you know, but he was ultimately able to stand up to the king and set everybody free, right?

Yeah.

And that would probably be a really good sermon.

Fiery.

But if, right?

But if we went, if we went to the black church, it would sound something like this.

And Moses

set the people free,

despite what the king said, despite what the king wanted, despite the systems and structures, despite slavery, despite hardship, the people

were free.

Are you free today?

Do you believe in freedom today?

Do you believe in tearing down the system today?

Right?

Sounds completely different.

Do you hear the difference in rhythm?

Yes.

There is a literal difference in cadence, in rhythm, in voice, in pitch, right?

And embodiment.

Embodiment.

And I love the way I have learned to do it.

That doesn't mean the other way is wrong.

It just means when you invite me on stage, this is the way that I am going to do it.

This is what I bring.

This is the whole point of diversity.

This is to experience a different kind of spirituality, a different way of understanding the Bible, a different way of reading, a different way of being,

and hopefully speak to a different part

of the audience.

Yeah, because like your way is you.

Yeah.

And when you do you, you give me permission to do me.

Yes.

That's why they can't have it.

That's why they can't have it.

It's bringing too much freedom.

And it's like, well, DEI didn't work is the line now, but that's because we didn't try it.

Yeah.

There was no I.

There was no I.

At what point was the equality?

Did I miss the equality?

We didn't.

Where was the inclusion?

At no point did I feel included, friends?

We didn't allow people

to bring their full selves.

We allowed empty shells of people that we would fill up with our way.

We didn't allow people to bring their full selves and mess with the rhythm enough to create something new.

We just did the D.

That's right.

That's all we did.

And now I'm standing on stage, which is usually my happy place.

Right.

I love being on stage.

I love a microphone.

I'm in my happy place being told that the way my body would do this naturally, even as something as simple as reading a Bible verse, which I've been doing for a really long time,

right?

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I love the legacy.

I love the deep spiritual connection that I have to my own community when I am fully embodying it, even without all of them being present.

Right?

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What happens to people who are in that situation who don't have that self-love?

who don't already have that sense of the fullness of them?

Because it's got to be happening a million times a day in a million places.

Being Being told you'll never be good enough.

What happens if you don't have that?

Yeah.

Because that really means you'll never be us enough.

That's right.

Right.

That's right.

And by the way, it's true.

And so what usually happens is burnout or like me, you get fired.

or you change yourself so much that you don't recognize yourself anymore, right?

Like Abby said, you begin to choose belonging over choosing yourself.

Or you get to a point where you have to get out and you know that you have to get out.

And everything becomes about figuring out how do I extricate myself from these spaces.

And Austin, in reading the gorgeous way that all of this unfolded in the book, it was like you were understanding that this was happening to you in the structure you were in at that job.

And it was like all the alarm bells and you figured it out.

You were wise enough to know, oh my God, I'm being separated from myself.

I am dissociating to stay in this group.

I am.

But then the really tricky part comes when you refuse to dissociate, which is that you are stuck in your body, which begins the real healing because what's in your body is your trauma.

Yeah.

And it feels horrible.

It's awesome.

I am angry.

I am sad.

I am woozy.

I feel sick to my stomach.

Like, I feel horrible.

And yet, that feels more honest

than pretending that I've been okay

because I haven't been okay.

So then we get to that moment.

You're in the misery of the reclamation, which is half misery, half freedom.

And you go to therapy.

There's a lot of tears.

Yeah, there's a lot of tears.

There's a lot of therapy.

On the other side, there's new decisions.

Tell us.

There's new decisions.

So one of the interviews I have afterwards is to be a resident director at a college, which means I will be responsible for roughly 400 18 and 19 year olds who are away at college for the first time living in a dormitory.

So as you can imagine during that interview, there are a lot of situational questions.

What would you do if someone put a frog in the community bathroom?

What would you do if two college students started arguing in the middle of their dorm?

What would you do?

Here's a real situation that I had.

What would you do if one of your students who really loves animals decided to rescue a dead squirrel and put it in her mini fridge so that she could bury it appropriately at a later date?

You know what I'm saying?

Like situations.

Inevitable situations.

Thanks.

Inevitable situations, friends.

FAQs, if you will.

One of the situations they give me is, what would you do if a group of students were drunk, if athletes were drunk outside the dormitory at 3 a.m.

making all kinds of noise?

And I know that the answer I'm supposed to give, right, that this question is about confidence.

And this question is about not avoiding conflict.

That's why this question is being asked.

If I give the answer, I'm going to cower in my bed and pretend I don't hear it.

I'm not getting the job.

Right.

Yeah.

The right answer is, well, of course, I'm going to get out of bed.

I'm going to confront the students.

I'm going to make sure everybody is safe.

I'm going to take their IDs.

I'm going to confront the situation.

But I am a black woman.

I am

5'6.

Right.

And we are talking about me being outside at 3 a.m.

on a predominantly white campus.

They didn't say male athletes, but I assumed male athletes who are not sober.

This sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Right.

But now I have to make a decision.

And when I give my honest answer, which is what I would like to do, here's what I would like to do as a black woman who's going to confront drunken male athletes at 3 a.m.

I would like to call security,

have them meet me

and confront the students along with folks that they will easily recognize as authority figures.

Me and my pajamas does not seem like the best idea,

right?

But that's not the answer they're looking for, and I know it.

And so I have this moment where I have to decide: am I going to empty myself right now and give the answer that I'm supposed to give?

Or am I going to risk losing this job by giving the honest answer

and prioritizing my safety, not just the safety of the students, but prioritizing my own safety as a Black woman on a predominantly white campus?

And in order to still get the job, I need the people at the table to not say,

oh, but our students would never.

Oh, but our student body is, they're just so wonderful.

It would never be that way just because you're black.

Or they say in their head, like, maybe you answer that honestly.

And they say, well, then we're just going to hire a white person.

Right.

Hello.

Right.

Or they say that's unfair.

Yep.

Right.

Which is where we are in America right now.

So expecting.

one of my white male coworkers who runs a different dorm to go out there and confront the students, that's a different standard than me asking for security.

So that's inherently unfair.

Right.

Right.

And the inability to tell the difference between fair and just.

Yeah.

Can you tell us the difference between fair and just?

That's good.

Right.

Well,

so in this, I don't have like a definition for you, friends, but in this, right, fair is to expect everybody to do the same thing at the same level for the same reward.

But just it takes into account this complex system that we actually live in.

Yes.

And in the complex system that we actually live in, we have to acknowledge that there actually are, in fact, people who are racist, that those who are racist are probably more likely to be so when they are drunk,

and that we are putting a black woman in a dangerous situation,

a potentially dangerous situation,

right?

And to ignore that reality, to ignore that possibility, that would be unfair.

Yep.

And that's insider information that you have.

That's insider.

That's insider information.

That's, let me see if these people think they know white people better than I do, because I'm going to tell them what would happen out there.

And we're going to see if they know or if they go to...

Do you know?

Right.

Right.

Right.

Right.

So then what happened?

I got hired.

Yes.

I got hired.

Which story did you tell, Austin?

Which answer did you actually give the people?

Oh, yes.

I absolutely told them that I would not feel safe doing this by myself.

And I made sure to actually answer the question.

Like, this is not about fear of confrontation.

I,

but I am a black woman and I need you all to recognize what that means for me on this campus.

Right.

And not only did they give me the job, friends, they were consistent in that support my entire time working there.

And this is actually a really important point for me, because it is a really strange thing to say that one of the best workplaces I ever had was at a predominantly white,

predominantly white, teeny, tiny Christian college.

Were they historically German?

I don't know.

But right, like this is not the place that should be one of the best places that I ever worked.

Yeah.

Because I existed on a team that could see me,

that honored me, that celebrated me.

My second week on campus is when Ferguson exploded.

And my teammates, who I have known for two weeks, bring me dinner because they say, Austin, we recognize that you are not only working right at this new job with all these new, right, doing trainings and whatnot, you are also paying deep attention to what is happening in Ferguson.

And we at least want to make sure you don't have to think about what to eat tonight.

Right.

And I share that because there are probably other places on that campus, y'all, where I would not have felt safe, where I did not feel safe.

Right.

There were

many other communities on that campus where I could not have worked.

But it feels really important to say that that department, that staff was able to create so much safety for me.

That is one of the best places that I ever worked.

So safety.

So this is the beginnings of you figuring out, I mean, when you went to therapy after all this time and you were really struggling with some painful childhood trauma.

Yeah.

And your beloved hubby, Tommy,

he confesses to you and the therapist that he really wants to save you from your pain.

And

tell us what your therapist says to him.

Yeah.

And then how you do it.

Because I want everybody who's listening to get some breadcrumbs of like how this reclamation of self begins.

Yeah.

So we're on a Zoom, right?

But I can see her leaning into the camera and she's smiling.

She's got this big smile, right?

And she says, Tommy, that's so sweet.

Like that's, it's just, it's amazing.

But Austin is going to save herself.

And she's like, still smiling.

And Tommy is like, wait, what?

Meanwhile, I am like, like my brain is exploding.

Right.

And so she starts laughing because she's seeing two completely different reactions from us.

Right.

Tommy's like, wait, what?

And I'm like,

can I do that?

Is that an option to save myself?

And the truth is, is that saving of myself

has had to happen slowly.

It has had to happen one decision at a time.

It has had to happen with realizing the inherent risks.

of that embodiment, right?

I could have lost that job,

right?

That was a risk.

I had no idea if they were gonna say yes or no, that it comes with inherent risks of rejection,

moment by moment by moment.

Right?

What do you need to feel safe?

Because your therapist kept saying to you, that part of reclamation is asking yourself, what do I need to feel safe?

What is that today?

I think this is one of the parts of the book where like I can give stories all day long, but the answer for me is probably going to be different than the answer for you.

Right.

And what it is that we're focused on, you know,

what I needed to feel safe in that job

is a completely different question from what I need to feel safe.

from childhood trauma when I walk into a bathroom.

Right.

That context matters, the level of trauma matters, right?

The kind of trauma matters.

And that is what makes being full of ourselves so damn hard.

Yeah.

It's so hard because we're doing it on multiple levels.

And that is actually a really important component to this book, right?

Because

I am also talking about motherhood and I am talking about being pregnant and I am talking about childhood trauma.

And I am, right?

Because as, as a black woman, what is often assumed is that my life is easy except for racism.

Just that one little part.

It's just over.

Just that one little thing.

On Tuesday, my language is totally isolated from everything else.

So it's fine.

Exactly.

It's on the side.

It's on the side.

And if I would just stop playing that card, like everything would be great.

Right.

And what I want to say in this book is that actually black women are also not only struggling with grief.

We are also struggling with ED.

we are also struggling with depression, we are also struggling with grief, we are also struggling with childhood trauma, we are also trying to raise families, we are also, right?

We also have all these other things that are happening

and an unjust system on top of it all.

And so, the risk of becoming full of ourselves,

right?

The risk of not emptying, the risk of full embodiment

is is frightening and freeing

but it's moment to moment right i wish that i could be like okay well we're gonna like do this mantra really fast right everyone do this mantra before you fall asleep and your life is gonna change right it doesn't work like that it really is in the decisions am i i love the way that you put this abby am i going to remain true to myself and to the community who knows me and loves me and sees me, right?

Or

am I going to let go of myself in order to belong to this status quo?

Which will I value?

Oof.

Austin,

this book is what's needed in the moment.

And I take your point

about who this book is about and who it's for.

And I understand,

but I am stubborn.

So I am also

saying I do think it's for everyone.

Yeah.

Right.

I do believe it's for everyone.

I believe it's for everyone because it's centered and marginalized, right?

In a marginalized body.

Yeah.

That it's not in spite of it.

It's because of it.

That is such an important point because it's like you can get on the dartboard.

Right.

And if you're right in the center, if you're you're in the bullseye, then it's like radiates out to the whole thing.

Exactly.

And that's what you're saying.

If it's true here, it's true all the way through.

Yes.

Yeah.

And this is the problem with a lot of other like self-help women kind of books, right?

Is that there is a level of privilege and a level of bias and a level, right?

That does not radiate out.

Right.

And so people who are marginalized pick it up and they're like, I got nothing.

Like, this does not apply to me.

This is not my situation.

I don't have access to any of this.

These are not decisions that I could make.

These are not options that are open to me.

Right.

And it becomes a really limiting experience.

Maybe a great read, but a limiting experience.

Well, that's why it's called self-help.

It's not us help.

Right.

Right.

It's expressly for the son.

We're like, we're not actually trying to advertise help and damn everybody else.

Your book is us help is all I'm saying.

I hope so.

I really hope so.

It's so crucial.

I hope so.

And I think it's crucial,

right?

That you don't give up

your ground on your own justice work.

Yes, you could, all three of you could opt into whiteness and just live there.

You could,

but you know the pain of marginality.

You know it.

You have felt it.

You have experienced it.

You have been harmed by it.

And so when you can sink into that work of your full humanity as justice work,

right?

I just think it makes it more possible to free yourself, to save yourself.

And for that freedom to radiate out to those around you.

What a dream.

I think we'll end on that.

You are.

Go get this freaking book.

Okay.

Go get full of myself.

You will not regret it.

You can thank us later.

Austin, you're a genius.

You're a prophet.

I am so deeply grateful that you're my friend.

I love you so much.

Same.

We love you.

Pod squad.

I'll talk to you after you've read the book and not until then.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren LeGrasso, Allison Schott, and Bill Schultz.