Five Criticism Survival Strategies (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 Well, welcome back to Week and Do Hard Things. I feel so delighted.
You do? Yeah, I just feel delighted. I've had more coffee than usual, but also I love this place.
I love talking to you too.

Speaker 2 I love what we talk about and I love who we talk to. I just love our community.
So today we're going to continue a conversation.

Speaker 2 We started with episode 136, Care Frontation, and received a lot of feedback on about do, do, do.

Speaker 2 criticism and how to deal with it.

Speaker 3 Is that a question mark?

Speaker 2 No, it's it's a it's an exclamation mark point.

Speaker 4 Well, it kind of is a question mark because the whole word,

Speaker 4 it's curious, the word. Is that word accurately describe what we're talking about?

Speaker 4 Is it feedback? Does it even count as feedback if it's from strangers? Because presumably you have to direct something to someone for it to be a feedback.

Speaker 2 It's just a feed out.

Speaker 2 It's a feed out if it's public.

Speaker 2 Right. So, and I love that.
It's a forced feed.

Speaker 2 yes i love that framing it's a yes i love that framing because

Speaker 2 i think today what we're going to do is figure out what actually is criticism

Speaker 2 that we should consider and what is actually just misogyny being vomited into the air that is not personal to us

Speaker 2 what actually

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 necessary for us to consider to become bigger and better and deeper and more beautiful and truer. And what needs to be filtered out so that we can take in what matters.

Speaker 2 And I actually avoid talking about public criticism. I don't think I've ever talked about it in a big way, mostly because number one, I feel like whatever I focus on just gets bigger.
And

Speaker 2 that part of this life has

Speaker 2 been confusing, scary, murky to me.

Speaker 2 and unhelpful.

Speaker 3 And so you mean like Twitter or people like writing you letters that have problems with you?

Speaker 2 No, I don't actually mean that. I think that I have had

Speaker 2 big luck in terms of the community of people who interact with me directly. Unbelievable, actually.
Like the level of respect and care and kindness.

Speaker 2 I mean, people write about our social media feeds about how unbelievably kind they are, right?

Speaker 3 I'm actually so amazed at it.

Speaker 2 It's incredible. And it was a painstaking process of building that slowly over time time and like creating a real culture.
But no, I just kind of mean

Speaker 2 the talking about me out there and what I hear and read in comment sections here on the internet away from communities that I curate.

Speaker 2 And the other reason why I avoid it is because it feels so specific, like to be a kind of a public person out there. But

Speaker 4 like not a universally understood thing. Like, don't y'all hate it when you pick up a people magazine and people are talking shit about you.
Like, not exactly hashtag relatable to folks like me.

Speaker 2 And I don't like that. Whenever I listen to like famous people talk about their plight in the world, it just feels boring to me because it doesn't feel universal.

Speaker 2 However,

Speaker 2 in thinking about this more, I think I may be doing our communities a disservice by not talking about it a little bit more. Because what I know

Speaker 2 is that

Speaker 2 when the world or

Speaker 2 talks about women,

Speaker 2 it's not just about that woman. It's a way of policing all women

Speaker 2 because women read that shit

Speaker 2 and we think, oh, thank God that's not me. Or like, even if it's subconscious, they think, well, that's why I don't put myself out there because I don't want that to happen to me.

Speaker 2 It's like the burning of the witch that everybody has to come to the town square to watch.

Speaker 2 It's the public witch burning that is not just about that woman. It's like, so are you watching this? Stay in line.

Speaker 4 Right. Right.
It's a chilling effect on women standing up and having a voice in any way because we do know that they're much more likely to be subject to attacks. It's open season.

Speaker 4 Like a woman steps up and says something about anything that's important.

Speaker 4 And then it isn't what she says. It's open season, her looks, her family, her level of crazy, her hair, her whatever is subject to attack.

Speaker 2 And that's what I want to get into because one thing that I can do to make it helpful is that

Speaker 2 I have found over the last 15 years

Speaker 2 that there is kind of a system you can use to make misogynistic criticism less chilling. Oh,

Speaker 2 there is a way of

Speaker 2 seeing it clearly that makes what feels very personal at the moment

Speaker 2 become completely impersonal. It's not personal.
None of this is personal. I'm going to tell you how I do that, like the sorting system I do that.

Speaker 2 And then the other reason that I think it's important is because when I talk to my friends who are not in as public positions as me about the kind of criticism I get, they absolutely relate to it.

Speaker 2 It's the same form in their offices or PTA meetings or it's the same. It's a little bit different exposure, but the same

Speaker 2 types. Types.

Speaker 5 Exactly.

Speaker 2 So here's,

Speaker 2 and you know this strategy, sister, because we've been doing it for so long, but when something goes out into the world or I'm stupid enough to like log into an article that someone's written about me, which I don't do very often anymore.

Speaker 2 I used to do all the time, but now I'll do it like once every five years because I don't know why.

Speaker 2 There's an onslaught of feed out.

Speaker 4 Okay. Force feed.
Force feed.

Speaker 2 Right, right, right, right, right.

Speaker 2 Or just like, you know, in the ether, right?

Speaker 2 And at first, the things that are said feel so horrifically horrible because they are about me.

Speaker 2 But what I figured out is if you are a woman and you put anything out into the world,

Speaker 2 let's imagine.

Speaker 2 Okay, you know, I love a metaphor. Let's do this.

Speaker 2 You're a woman who leaves your home to put something out into the world, whether it's like a work in an office or a piece of art or an opinion or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 You've gone and put that piece of work into the mailbox. Put the flag up.
Go back to your home.

Speaker 2 When you come back to that mailbox, you're going to have some feedout,

Speaker 2 okay, from the world. Just pages and letters and envelopes of feedback, feed out, whatever it is.
You're not going to take that feedback into your house yet. It doesn't all belong in your house.

Speaker 2 First, you're going to sort

Speaker 2 the feedback. And here's what you're going to find.

Speaker 2 I think there's probably four categories.

Speaker 2 Maybe five now for me, five categories of feedout or feedback for me. The first will be about my looks.

Speaker 2 Something about how I look. I'm too ugly to do this work.
I'm too pretty to do this work.

Speaker 2 I have too much Botox. I do not have enough Botox.
I wear way too much makeup. I don't have enough makeup.
My hair is too gray, and I should dye it. If I were a good feminist, I would not dye it.

Speaker 2 I am too skinny to be talking about bodies. I'm wrinkly.
My clothes are ridiculous. It's something about the way that I appear.

Speaker 2 By the way, as an aside, when we're talking about feedback,

Speaker 2 let's just not ever talk about other people's bodies at all. Yep.
Like, we have a rule in our family that's like, mind your own body. Don't talk about other people's bodies.

Speaker 3 That's been hard for me because I come from a sports world and I'm like, oh my gosh, you look great.

Speaker 2 It's part of like the whole culture. It's so hard.
I know. I'm learning.
It's hurtful and scary to hear about your looks. from strangers.
It is also completely and totally irrelevant and ridiculous.

Speaker 2 It's junk mail. If you have that stack of mail in your hand, feed out from the world, anything that has to do with your looks goes in the trash

Speaker 2 or recycling if you're responsible. Okay, so

Speaker 2 anything about your appearance, junk mail. You're not taking it inside.
The second category,

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 the culture knows that women are supposed to be valued for how we look, how we present, and our relationships.

Speaker 2 It will be about my relationships.

Speaker 4 Can I pause one second on the first category? Yes, yes. About looks, it's super hard to view that as not personal because we think if I didn't look like this, I wouldn't get this feedback.

Speaker 4 But if you could instead think about it as an indicia of that is where people go

Speaker 4 when people see a woman that is powerful or creative or is shaking the status quo in any way, whether it's an idea at a meeting or whatever, and they go through a checklist. This is the checklist.

Speaker 4 And the last thing that they can get to is her looks.

Speaker 4 If you look at Justice Sotomayor, when she was at the confirmation hearings, the media reports that were about her looks, if you look at when Hillary Clinton ran for office, it is the criticism equivalent of slapstick comedy.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 4 Like, if you can't get something at a higher level, you go there.

Speaker 4 And so, although it feels deeply personal, it from a structural gender policing standpoint, it is universally accepted that that is the last nuclear option to get at a woman who is trying to change things.

Speaker 2 But it's also the low-hanging fruit. It's from the least creative people.
It's from the people who can't think any further than that. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 2 Because if you could think of something else, you would. It's not something that is

Speaker 2 worth your time to consider. And the other thing is you can't win.
If you're trying to

Speaker 2 respond to criticism in a way that's making you better, it's almost like, how is this going going to make me better? You're not going to win that one.

Speaker 4 It's irrelevant. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's totally irrelevant. But they also know that they can get to women because women are supposed to value who we are in relation to other people with relationships.
So the second category of

Speaker 2 criticism that I is in the ether for me is I'm a terrible wife. How could Abby ever be with me? I'm so way too much.
Why did she marry me? I'm a terrible mom.

Speaker 2 Can you imagine talking about these things with your kids and what a terrible mom she is? I'd rather die than be her kid. Oh my God.
You know, Craig, thank God he left.

Speaker 2 I'm giving you specific examples for me, but the like general one would be,

Speaker 2 well, I wouldn't want to be her person.

Speaker 2 I wouldn't want to be her mom, this relationship. So check.
Right. This is the next category.

Speaker 2 of junk mail because I feel like it's very basic, but important to remember that the only people we should be taking feedback about our relationships are the people with whom we are in relationship.

Speaker 4 That's right.

Speaker 2 Very basic, but like

Speaker 2 junk mail. Nothing about our relationships comes in the house.

Speaker 4 So the corporate version of this would be the very

Speaker 4 engaged, prolific corporate attorney who

Speaker 4 is killing it at their job and people present under the guise of concern.

Speaker 4 Wow, you know, I mean, I know she's doing such a great job, but she has a nanny at home all the time. She hardly ever sees.

Speaker 2 When does she see her kids? Feigned as concern. Feigned as concern.
Like, oh, I just,

Speaker 2 yeah, yeah. I'm just worried.
I'm just worried. No, you're not worried, Kathy.
You're not worried. Okay.

Speaker 2 Third category. So this one's tricky, but it's personality.
Oh, it's a big category, but you'll know when you see it. For me, it's like, she's so controlling.
She's crazy. She's too much.

Speaker 2 There's lots of like, she's too much. She's too much.
She's too much. She's too much.

Speaker 4 She's a lot.

Speaker 2 She's a lot.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 these things

Speaker 2 could be true, could be not. Most of those things I discuss anyway about my own damn self.
But

Speaker 2 here's what is important to remember. When you look at these categories, looks, relationship, personality,

Speaker 2 none of these categories have to do with my work.

Speaker 2 What I've done is I've gone to put my work in the mailbox to send it out.

Speaker 2 And what the whole world has done, because I'm a woman,

Speaker 2 is ignore what I put in the mailbox. and look at me.

Speaker 2 And I've said this before in the pod, I'm going to say it again. It's very important to me for every woman who's putting work out in the world to hear this when a man puts work out into the world

Speaker 2 the world looks at the work and says is this work worthy

Speaker 2 and when a woman puts work out into the world the world looks at the woman and says is she even worthy of putting this work out

Speaker 2 they don't even look at the work

Speaker 2 Why is she talking? Not what has she said,

Speaker 2 but why are we letting her talk?

Speaker 4 Who is she to think that we to have the audacity to believe that we should listen to her?

Speaker 2 Yep.

Speaker 3 Why does she feel so entitled to be able to say what she is saying?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 Exactly. It's not about what she's saying.
It's the entitlement.

Speaker 2 One of the things I think about all the time is

Speaker 2 when we look at the feedback for our work, whether we're in an office, whether we're an artist, whoever we are,

Speaker 2 The first question we have to ask ourselves when we're considering whether we're gonna take this criticism in

Speaker 2 and think about it is, is it even about my work?

Speaker 2 Is it about my work? And the second one is, is it gendered?

Speaker 2 Because when I talk to my male counterparts in this, they are stunned by these categories, stunned by them. They don't get this kind of feedback.

Speaker 2 They don't have to sort their male 80, 89% down to the teeny, it's that their feedback is about their work.

Speaker 2 So it's like another added job that women have to do, along with all the other ones, is to sort the male.

Speaker 2 Here's what I want to talk about with this fourth category, because the fourth category would be stuff that's actually about our work.

Speaker 3 Well, because there is stuff that we do need to look at about ourselves, about our work.

Speaker 2 Yes. To make

Speaker 3 us better.

Speaker 2 For sure. Absolutely.
I think we have to be smart enough to sort the first, you know, 80% of it out.

Speaker 2 And we have to be strong and wise enough to take that 20%

Speaker 2 and bring it in and let it change us and make us better. However, here's the trick with that 20%:

Speaker 2 is that even when it's about your work, it can still be gendered.

Speaker 2 For example, early on, I was working with a company and I asked a question about my work being disseminated to the world, a very specific business question.

Speaker 2 And I got a call call back from the president of that company who said to me, so I wanted to get back to you. I know that you're a control freak.
So I need to answer your question.

Speaker 2 And I felt so like, wait, because I asked a question about my own business and I'm a control freak. If I were a man, there is no way in how

Speaker 2 this response would have been framed that way.

Speaker 2 You experience this, sister, right? Gendered feedback. What's the feedback that you get in in terms of your work that we that you feel like is gendered

Speaker 4 well i think this was a shock to me because i think it's really interesting how much it happens between and among women yes too that was a woman by the way that was a woman who called

Speaker 4 in my experience it has come back to me in terms of when i ask you know straightforward questions, accountability questions, what I view as non-confrontational questions or just pushing, which is literally my job is to advance things by pushing them through.

Speaker 4 I will

Speaker 4 get feedback from a colleague of the person that I'm trying to get the answers from that, you know, you two just don't, you don't really,

Speaker 4 you don't work great together.

Speaker 4 You two, you just kind of don't click.

Speaker 4 And it's the idea that

Speaker 4 I am some sort of way that is untenable because I'm asking those things and,

Speaker 4 is often

Speaker 4 most often with women. And so,

Speaker 2 is it because you don't do the equivalent of a million smiley faces after your text in your communication? Like you're not bubbly enough? Because I see a lot of that.

Speaker 2 People expect women to be a certain way with each other. And when you're direct and clear, that is viewed as aggressive.

Speaker 4 Right. Well, I think that when men get fired up, they're viewed as passionate

Speaker 4 and unrelenting

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 devoted and driven. Yes.
And when women get fired up, they are seen as out of control and petulant and

Speaker 2 difficult to work with. Difficult.
Difficult to work with.

Speaker 4 Right. I think it's intensity.

Speaker 4 When a woman is intense, the world is not comfortable with it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

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Speaker 3 I also think just to speak about the business approach to this,

Speaker 3 it is a calculated move for whomever you're doing business with, sister, the boss that says, you know, I don't think I've just really, I don't think I can't work with her.

Speaker 3 Like, there's something about her that they're saying all this stuff to a woman on purpose. And that woman is tasked with the job of taming sister.

Speaker 2 And then that woman becomes more tamed in the process because she's learning, oh shit, I can't see like that.

Speaker 4 Well, and this is why it's so important to talk to each other. I have a dear friend who works on a team.
She's complete badass.

Speaker 4 One one of the members of her team called their higher up out for something that was, who was a man, who was completely out of line on something.

Speaker 4 Nobody else knew that the other team member had called the person out. Then dude calls all the other members of the team other than her and says, I'm worried about her mental

Speaker 4 like she just seems a little overwhelmed and a little overworked. And I think we might need to pull this back from her.
I'm just really worried about her. Okay.
Everybody else is like, oh my God,

Speaker 4 I guess we are, she is, she does handle a lot. She must be stressed.
Like, maybe we should pull this back from her. Nobody knows until she calls and says,

Speaker 4 I just had this crazy issue with this dude. And then they put together that she had had the issue.

Speaker 4 And then the dude called the rest of them to pull back the work under the guise of, you know, we're just really worried.

Speaker 2 We need to make sure. Oh, my God.

Speaker 4 It's scary.

Speaker 2 It goes back to that episode

Speaker 2 with Natalie Portman, where if some dude says she's crazy, you say back, what bad thing did you do to her? Yes. Yeah.
So you ask yourself, is it gendered?

Speaker 2 There's another, and I want to actually broach this because we usually don't, and most women don't because it's so dicey, but there's also another category of criticism that comes down to money and ambition.

Speaker 2 I've definitely noticed this one recently. It's some version of how dare she make money off of her work.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And like, all I care about is is money. And I'm only saying this because this is a version of what all women, it's, it comes down to she's too ambitious.
She's too ambitious. She's too ambitious.

Speaker 2 There's just no way to win this one as a woman. You must ignore this because I was thinking recently, I saw like a brush of

Speaker 2 comments about I'm too ambitious and I make money and I don't do anything for the world. Like I'm just this greedy person.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I'm reading these comments like, I want everybody to know that I have this sorting system. It still like hurts me.
Yeah. I panic every time.
I read this stuff and I'm like,

Speaker 2 my immediate thought is, I have to stop. I have to stop this.
I have to stop this. I'm out of control.
How could I be letting this happen? It's the feeling of

Speaker 2 I was safe and for some reason I'm like an animal that put myself in the middle of a savannah with nowhere to hide. And I have no protection.
And I've done this to myself.

Speaker 2 And why the hell would I not get picked off by a predator? Like, that's how it feels. And by the way, I think that's how it's meant to feel.
I think it taps into something of us that is

Speaker 2 primal. It is not logical.

Speaker 2 It is not something that, you know, a sorting system can necessarily fix because it strikes to our fear of being picked off, of being separated from its safety, it's attachment.

Speaker 2 It's, I have done something to threaten my safety and connection to human beings, and I'm going to be annihilated.

Speaker 4 And not only that,

Speaker 4 but

Speaker 4 I deserve this. I have put myself in a position to lose my safety.
It's like anchor is too close to the sun.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 It's, I,

Speaker 4 I should have known that if I had the audacity to use my voice, if I had the audacity to try to make change, if I had the audacity to think that I deserve to be leading that thing,

Speaker 4 then I deserve whatever consequences I've brought on myself. Instead of, I have the right to be both safe and heard, to be both loud and safe.
We immediately say, my bad, retreat.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And that's how it feels to me in the moment. Like, oh my God, retreat, retreat.
I've done that.

Speaker 2 I've made my family unsafe. I've made me unsafe.

Speaker 2 Right. It's not like they didn't warn me.
That's what my whole life was.

Speaker 2 Every cultural message, every witch burning, everyone was

Speaker 2 telling me not to do this. I did it, I deserve it.
But then I tell myself:

Speaker 2 if

Speaker 2 that's the message,

Speaker 2 if that's what they want me to do is stop,

Speaker 2 just stop, go away.

Speaker 2 Then maybe it's like a huge act of resistance and beauty and freedom just to not stop.

Speaker 2 What if I just don't go away?

Speaker 2 What I want to say about the whole ambition thing, and you're a narcissist, everybody's a narcissist these days. If you're a woman and you open up your mouth about your life, you're a narcissist.

Speaker 2 So get ready for that one. But

Speaker 2 when I read that thing about how I'm just ambitious, I panicked about like, I don't do anything for the world for five minutes. And then I was like, wait,

Speaker 2 I did found, and I'm the president of Together Rising. So like I do every single day raise money for people all over the world.
That's basically what we do with our time. What's that number now?

Speaker 2 Together Rising has raised over $45 million for people in need in our country and all around the globe. Now, here's why I tell you that, not to like prove anything for myself.

Speaker 2 It's to prove to you that you can't win that one. As a woman, I am like, don't worry, world.

Speaker 2 I'm going to earn my ability to speak by doing all of this good stuff for the world because if you're a woman, you cannot do well unless you're doing good. Yep.
Or they will crucify you.

Speaker 2 So you have to be doing good, doing good. No, no, no, don't worry.
I'm doing good. I'm doing good.

Speaker 2 I'm here to tell you: it doesn't matter how much good you do,

Speaker 2 they will still come after you. So, don't worry about that.
A woman should be able to be out in the world and using her voice and doing well and being ambitious without doing all of that do-gooding.

Speaker 4 Just imagine you got your like VP of company Inc. or your president of or CEO of LLC Z.

Speaker 4 And could you ever imagine being being like,

Speaker 4 that guy, I went to college with him. All he wants to do is work hard and succeed and make money.
Can you believe that? Bastard. What an actual asshole.
Yeah. No one ever says.
No.

Speaker 4 It would be said in a, that guy, he has been driven since the day. I knew him.
He's been hustling. He's CEO of that company.
He does so well.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 4 We put the bitch in ambitious.

Speaker 4 That's what we do.

Speaker 2 We've got our 100% of our feed out shit. Okay.
We are sitting at the bottom of the driveway. We are laden.
We are covered with feedback because we are a woman.

Speaker 2 But we have gotten rid of everything that looks like our that's about our appearance or other women's appearance.

Speaker 2 We've gotten rid of everything that's about our relationships because these are from people with whom we are not in relationships. Yes.
We have gotten rid of everything that's about our personality.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right. Because they don't have to hang out with us actually.
Right? We're not friends with them. They're not friends with us.
Like this is not about our personality. This is about our work.

Speaker 2 So, all of that is God. We have the little 20%,

Speaker 2 but we've also weeded out what's gendered in that. So, if it's talking about us being ambitious, if it's talking about us being control freaks, whatever, we've weeded out.

Speaker 2 We've got this little 5% left. Little pile.
5% left.

Speaker 3 It's just a little pile.

Speaker 2 Now,

Speaker 2 friends. Do we think we're taking those five letters into our house? Because we are not.
We are not done sorting. Okay.

Speaker 2 This is one category that I have developed for myself just in the last couple years.

Speaker 2 And I think it's been the most important. Well,

Speaker 2 the question is, we've got these five letters. Are all of these kind?

Speaker 2 Are they respectful? Oh, they have to be kind. Are they respectful? Kind.
Yes. Okay, everybody.
This has like been life-changing for me. I used to listen.

Speaker 2 If it's about my work, I'll take it no matter how it's said, no matter what, how it makes me feel inside, no matter if it's clear, this person hates me. If it's about my work, I have to take it.

Speaker 2 I used to listen to everything people said to me about my work, however they said it, no longer. Okay.
I am a communicator. That is my work.

Speaker 2 And if you don't communicate without snark or malice to someone you don't even know, I'm not considering a criticism. I do not have to take in

Speaker 2 things people say to me that are not kind and or respectful. And the reason why

Speaker 2 is because

Speaker 2 that kind of criticism can't be trusted

Speaker 2 because it's about the person who's doing the criticism. It's not about the person who's receiving it.
Because there's some kind of like malice or snark or hate in it

Speaker 2 that can't be trusted. Do you two know what I'm saying about that?

Speaker 3 Well, it reminds me of like when we get in arguments and I say, it's not what you say, it's almost how you say it in a way.

Speaker 2 Yeah. It's like, you get to have a boundary as an adult, but you get to insist upon decency.

Speaker 2 If you hate me and I can tell that you hate me from the way you're saying something to me, I don't have to let that in. Don't think it's about our highest and best.

Speaker 4 And that, I think, is universally applicable to folks who are operating on the internet.

Speaker 4 It reminds me of what you said about how that becomes a tug of war, where if you put something out in the world and

Speaker 4 then somebody else pulls back back on it and says in a way with malice of like this is horseshit and this is why if you choose to pick up the tug of war and tug back and forth with them that is the way you're occupying your time and your energy is doing that whereas if you let go of the rope you can now move on and create something else so that applies to everyday people from an internet perspective it doesn't make sense to waste your time engaging with those people.

Speaker 4 But I'm thinking in the context of a corporate environment, the rules of corporate engagement don't always dictate, especially if you're in certain corporate climates, that people behave with kindness and empathy.

Speaker 4 And you can also get a little bit into the gendered space because, like, you must deliver that in a kind way can be at some point on a spectrum with the you didn't use enough exclamation points and smiley faces in a corporate setting.

Speaker 2 Okay, so maybe kind isn't the right word.

Speaker 2 Isn't it necessary to deliver criticism with some level of respect? Because I want to try to get at what I'm what I'm trying to get at here, like to get deeper.

Speaker 2 I do think this applies to friendships, to corporate America, to everything, because there is a way of communicating criticism to women.

Speaker 2 that actually is about the person's

Speaker 2 internal misogyny. That's what I mean.
You can't consider it because it's about that person. I think I I told you the story recently.

Speaker 2 One of our kids was at the sleepover and all the girls at the sleepover were talking about how much they hate Olivia Rodrigo. This and this and this and this, and they can't stand Olivia Rodrigo.

Speaker 2 And they get around to our kid, and our kid's like, you know what?

Speaker 2 I used to feel that way about Olivia Rodrigo until I figured out that like, I just was really jealous of her because it feels like she just became a star so fast and she is so famous and pretty and talented.

Speaker 2 And it just made me feel bad. And so I figured out that like, I just was jealous kind of made me feel icky.
And that icky made it easier to say I hate her.

Speaker 2 I feel like there's a way of offering criticism and there's this undertone or wicked thing in it that sets off alarm bells in me that is like, this actually is not about my work.

Speaker 2 This is not about furthering our work. This is about this thing that this person has that they have a problem with me.
And don't you think that happens all the time in corporate America?

Speaker 4 I think it does. And I think the thing underlying that, like the question would be,

Speaker 4 is this a person

Speaker 2 or

Speaker 4 feedback

Speaker 4 that you could ever make right without abandoning yourself?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 Because

Speaker 4 there are certain people that deliver that as retribution for violating their rules, how they see the world,

Speaker 4 the way they believe you should behave, that any change change that you make is besides disappearing is never going to satisfy them. That's right.

Speaker 4 So by definition, it doesn't make any sense for you to entertain that because the only way that you're going to appease that person is by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.

Speaker 2 That's right. So

Speaker 4 So I think that's a category. Now, that said, I think that a lot of women are victims of this kind of, you didn't say it nicely enough.

Speaker 4 And therefore, I'm going to discount what you're saying in the corporate world. And I feel like that is something that I've experienced.
Like you didn't couch it in sweet.

Speaker 4 If not, no,

Speaker 4 JK, just joking.

Speaker 4 I think, I just think that maybe we should, as opposed to saying, here's what we need to do. Here's what I need you to do.
This is the information I need by the end of the day. Yep.

Speaker 4 That that can be seen as she is demanding. She is, she is unreasonable.
She is not kind.

Speaker 2 That's direct and respectful to me. Yeah.
Like if somebody says to me, this is the thing, this is the thing, this is the thing, the end. That's, I don't mean sweet.
Okay. I mean that.
I mean direct.

Speaker 2 What I'm saying is when there's snark in it, when there's like an undertone of something else. And I do think you're right that it's maybe I'm focusing, maybe it's more of an internet thing.

Speaker 2 Yes, it is. But to me, clear, like as Brene says, clear is kind.
Like give me clear. We don't want to get into the thing where we're like, well, I don't like how you said that to me.

Speaker 2 That was me. That was me.

Speaker 4 you know, because you can very much get into the content policing where you're like, You're not being nice, you're not being sweet to each other.

Speaker 4 No, she's just telling you the truth, and it feels like shit to you because that truth hurts you, right?

Speaker 2 Right. But there's a way to deliver the truth that is clear, that is without the hate tentacles underneath it.

Speaker 2 What I have to do as a sensitive human being who also has to be brave enough to be out there and bring in the 5% of criticism

Speaker 3 is which I still think is a lot.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, from the internet. Like, I think the only people

Speaker 3 that you should even entertain taking criticism from are people that you know and respect.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Period. End of story.

Speaker 2 Like, the internet, it may or may not even be a human being. I know.
That's right. Like, I just have a big problem.

Speaker 3 And I know you've built an amazing community.

Speaker 3 But I was born into the 2011, 10 years. Twitter was fairly new.

Speaker 3 And every single soccer game I would play in, I would have the same amount of love messages that I had hate messages that I didn't pass it when I shot it. Like

Speaker 3 always you have to consider who the source is, like who is out there feeding you with some of this feedback or feedout or criticism.

Speaker 2 And there's a disconnect between the way we understand the internet too, because you were a famous person. So everybody was tweeting you.
You didn't know who they were. You were famous.

Speaker 2 But mine's different because I've like slowly built this community of people who actually know and care about each other. Yeah.
So it's different. I actually do.

Speaker 2 I know. You get upset.

Speaker 4 You care.

Speaker 3 And I'm, I look at my Twitter feed and I'm, I have no care in the world.

Speaker 2 I know, I know. And you're always baffled by how much I care.

Speaker 3 And you're like wanting to fall

Speaker 2 out. I know.
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Speaker 4 If we're trying to draw this parallel to the extent that it's possible between

Speaker 4 your workplace, Glennon, which is among this community and predominantly on the internet, versus where a lot of people experience this in the workplace, I think it's some people

Speaker 4 view all conflict as problematic and mean.

Speaker 4 And that

Speaker 4 is not my experience, nor is it like what the business data says about conflict. There's two sets of conflicts, and there's a difference between a constructive conflict and destructive conflict.

Speaker 4 The way destructive conflict is presented, it actually can bring down the morale of the entire department.

Speaker 4 It reduces the success of the business. And that is similar to you getting destructive criticism online that you actually should not take into account, but you do, and then you want to run away.

Speaker 2 It's not just that. It's also that this, these people who are, don't know us, don't know whatever, come into the comments, say something horrible to me.

Speaker 2 And then I'm thinking, here's the witch burning that all my people who were trying to build this community of being bold and brave and being who we are are seeing that. And it's

Speaker 2 doing the opposite of what I want to do with this community, which they're trying to scare them. They're trying to shut women up, right? Right.
So that is the bless and block situation.

Speaker 2 I don't anymore like struggle with cruelty. Should I try to win them over? No.
If someone's cruel to me on the, in my comments,

Speaker 2 bless and block. Bye-bye.
And I don't think about you again.

Speaker 4 And then there's also this idea of not getting so haughty that you don't believe that people that can provide you feedback have valuable

Speaker 4 either either lived experience or insights that that are in our blind spots businesses and communities are made stronger by constructive conflict and that's like when you have all these different ideas and worldviews and

Speaker 4 when you're able to express them and receive them without being defensive that's what makes you

Speaker 4 more aligned with your goals and your missions and i feel like we have that a lot. I do think that oftentimes when we have

Speaker 4 said something or done something, we are able to say, oh,

Speaker 4 I am reading what you're saying. And that is a good point that I had not considered.

Speaker 4 And I appreciate that. And I'm metabolizing that.
And we're going to come back and repair that.

Speaker 2 The reason we can do that is because we know how to filter out the 98%.

Speaker 2 And so when that 2% comes, the biggest growth periods of my entire life, career-wise, which have also been the most painful are when somebody has come to me and said, what you just said or what you just did is an absolute reflection of your privilege.

Speaker 2 And here's why that thing is hurtful. And get your shit together.
Direct, clear. I can tell it's somebody that doesn't hate me, that isn't excited.

Speaker 4 That's what it is. Yeah, it's reveling in a chance.

Speaker 2 It's excited. You can tell when people have just been waiting

Speaker 2 for you. And they're not sad you messed up.
They're excited you messed up. That's right.
It's this. That's what I'm trying to get at.
That's what I meant by like the tentacles of like excitement.

Speaker 2 Like, oh, we've been waiting to take her down. And now it's not that.
It's like people who are like, oh. we kind of believe in what you're doing and the here's where you went off and like that

Speaker 2 stuff you know sister that it breaks my heart at first. It's like there's no worse, more painful criticism than like when you've hurt people who you respect and love.

Speaker 2 And that will, I will stop everything. Yeah.
Criticism is one thing, but when you tell me that you have hurt or damaged or caused harm, that is something that I will take inside with me.

Speaker 2 That's the male I will take inside with me. I will sit with it.
I will let it change me. I will be in the fetal position for a couple of days, but I will come back.
I will apologize for real.

Speaker 2 I will do whatever work I didn't do before that even made that mistake possible and allow it to change me completely.

Speaker 4 And that I think

Speaker 4 circles us back to

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 first episode that we did on criticism a while back, where it's the difference between people who

Speaker 4 can't wait

Speaker 4 to bring you down

Speaker 4 versus the people who are willing to

Speaker 4 help you stand

Speaker 4 up better. Yes.
And those people are making an investment in you.

Speaker 4 And even when it feels like shit, and even when it's hard to take, it would be easier for those folks, whether you're in a relationship with them, whether you're in business with them, or whether they're in your communities, to just not tell you and then talk shit about you.

Speaker 4 Yes. So they're helping you stand up by sharing it with you.
And it's best not to be defensive to that. And it's best to just take a deep breath.

Speaker 4 Adam Grant talks about like everybody needs support groups and everybody needs challenge networks. And so your support network is people who are there for you no matter what and to support you.

Speaker 4 And your challenge network is people that are going to tell you the truth. No matter what, even if it's about something you did wrong, because that is how you get

Speaker 4 to be more aligned with what you're trying to do i have a question are there any um

Speaker 3 public facing women who have gotten out of their life without

Speaker 2 like who have who have won who have no ended up on top no you are either to this or you're to that there's this line that you're supposed to land the right place on but no woman has ever landed in the right place for the world to be like that

Speaker 2 i remember watching a documentary with hillary Clinton where they were like, okay, she's being too abrasive. She's being too whatever.

Speaker 2 And her campaign manager is saying, can you point us towards the woman who has gotten this right so we can like figure out how to, no, no one has ever gotten it right.

Speaker 2 All you're going to do is keep moving back and forth. And when you get to the other part, they're going to push you back the other way.
You can't win. So you have to stop playing.

Speaker 2 You have to stop trying.

Speaker 4 It's that Hubbard quote, the only way to avoid criticism is to do nothing, be nothing, say nothing.

Speaker 4 If you really are going to orient your life about not being a target of criticism, especially if you're a woman, that's the only way you're going to do it.

Speaker 4 So, really be intellectually honest about your goals.

Speaker 4 If you're telling yourself you can't handle criticism, you have to tell yourself that you're willing to accept a life in which you do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And what's super important is to remember it's not personal. They can be talking about my pores on my face, which feels personal.
It's not personal. It's so boring.

Speaker 2 It's the same 25 things that they say about every woman. It's like the misogynists in the world, which by the way, aren't just outwardly marching misogynists.
We all have it in us.

Speaker 2 Every time we think, God, it's just something about her.

Speaker 4 I think that we are lucky to have the advantage of having seen millions of comments over 10 years because I actually do.

Speaker 4 The point at which I really believed and understood that it was not personal is when I could go to a place and know with certainty, 20% of the comments are going to say this, 20% are going to say this, whatever.

Speaker 4 I knew exactly what they'd be and they always are. And that's how you know that it actually has nothing to do with you.
It has to do with

Speaker 4 this is what we can expect from the world when anyone shows up in any kind of audacious way.

Speaker 2 And especially dares to be human at all. Like there's kind of a message of you should be ashamed for even speaking

Speaker 2 because you haven't got it all figured out. Right.
Right. God forbid you show up and you're like, No, no, no, I'm going to keep doing this even though I don't have it all figured out.

Speaker 4 Because I'm not even trying to hide how fucked up I am. And I'm still going to be saying all this stuff.

Speaker 2 No, I remember calling you very early on in this and being like, I just read a thing and they said I'm bulimic and they said I'm crazy and they said I'm getting divorced.

Speaker 2 And they said, and you were like, but aren't all of those things completely true?

Speaker 3 Right.

Speaker 2 So there's also an element of like, maybe I am all those things and I'm going to keep showing up anyway. What if I do that?

Speaker 4 Be messy, complicated, and afraid.

Speaker 2 Afraid. And

Speaker 4 show up.

Speaker 2 Anyway.

Speaker 4 Anyway.

Speaker 2 And also when you get that kind of criticism and you go into fear and panic, just know that that's like a primal thing. That's your body saying, I am not safe.

Speaker 2 I'm about to be picked off from the herd and I should go quiet in order to not be seen so that I can survive. Right.

Speaker 4 Yeah. In Maslow's hierarchy of needs, criticism hits not in the self-esteem area.
Criticism hits in the way more primal, higher level of important needs, which is safety.

Speaker 4 That's where we experience criticism. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You feel like I'm doing something dangerous, like I'm prey and I've X, I've somehow, for some reason, painted myself magenta and I am no longer catapult.

Speaker 3 In terms of the context of this specific like illustration and analogy, there's very rare times in my life where I like let criticism affect me in a negative way.

Speaker 3 If you give me something that hurts my feelings, that'll do it.

Speaker 3 But I wonder how much of it has to do with the way we see ourselves in terms of being prey or predator in the savannah that you're talking about. Like,

Speaker 3 you know, I think

Speaker 2 that's so interesting.

Speaker 3 I think that it could be an interesting conversation around like, because I, I don't feel afraid a lot.

Speaker 2 That's so true.

Speaker 3 I'm not like a predator, but like, I don't feel like I'm prey. Yeah.
I'm not getting picked off. And I think that you might.

Speaker 2 I do feel like prey. I have never once considered what if I'm the fucking predator.

Speaker 4 You're a goddamn cheetah. Cheetah.

Speaker 2 I wrote a whole book about being a cheetah. Is a cheetah a predator? Yeah.
Yes. Damn it to hell.

Speaker 4 I have a question for you, Abby. So I'm wondering if you take that a step step further.
Do you take

Speaker 4 the criticism as a sign that you are a more effective predator in the savannah? And that's why they're giving you so much

Speaker 4 attention and shit.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So you feed off of it. Yes.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 3 I'm like, oh. Especially because that, I mean, it's a quick calculation.
Like, who is this person? And are they, are they somebody to be respected in my world? Who are you to be giving me advice?

Speaker 3 I'm always asking that question.

Speaker 3 Who the fuck are you?

Speaker 2 You say that to me.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Like, I actually do.
I'm like, who made you the judge and jury?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So this is fascinating because it depends

Speaker 4 on

Speaker 4 what

Speaker 4 role you think you're in. And if you,

Speaker 4 G, are in this specific role where you see yourself, you belong in this area, then you do need to be nurturing, empathetic,

Speaker 4 in communication, open,

Speaker 4 all of these things that make you much more vulnerable and quote unquote need to fall in line with what these people demand of you.

Speaker 4 Whereas Abby is like, oh no, my role here is to take shots and give shots. Yeah.
And so if I'm taking shots from you, I'm doing it right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do wonder if some of that is also gendered. Abby has been raised with lots of male privilege.

Speaker 2 She walks into a room and she is responded to like

Speaker 2 a man has arrived.

Speaker 4 I don't know how to explain it.

Speaker 2 I do wonder if some of that's gendered.

Speaker 3 Which gives me a lot more leniency to be like, fuck that. No, I don't need to listen to that.

Speaker 4 I respect you over here.

Speaker 3 I'll take that criticism. I'm going to listen to that one.
That's what we're talking about. Yeah.
It's like all of these places that we think we find ourselves in.

Speaker 3 And I think what we're saying is to the women or more feminine-identifying folks in the world who might feel less like a predator and a little bit more like a prey.

Speaker 3 These are some ideas that you can have to try to unwrap yourself from the genderized version of who you think you should be and how you think you need to respond to the world as it comes to you, whether it's on social or in your personal life.

Speaker 2 And then once you get through that, you go back and listen to the Bazoma of St.

Speaker 2 John episode and figure out how the hell you navigate this planet when you have all the gendered criticism coming at you and the race

Speaker 2 criticism coming at you. If you're a woman of color, then it's like 99.9%

Speaker 2 of the male is absolute shit.

Speaker 4 Or if you're queer, you just get a P.O. box.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 You just get a P.O. box.

Speaker 2 I love this conversation because I truly feel like

Speaker 2 if we were really honest,

Speaker 2 there are so many things

Speaker 2 that we want to do with our lives or stories we want to tell or ways we want to show up. And the reason we don't do it is fear of criticism.

Speaker 5 It's real.

Speaker 2 Because anybody who says, just do it, it'll be fine.

Speaker 2 You won't get criticism. Not sure you will get criticism.

Speaker 2 And then when people say,

Speaker 2 I was recently talking to a friend and she said, I'm just going to do it. And then when people say the thing, I'm just not going to care.
I'm not going to care.

Speaker 2 And I said to her, okay, just to be very clear, you are going to care.

Speaker 2 Whenever we say we're going to read this thing and we're just not going to care, I don't care. You will care.
It will hurt. It will hurt.
And you can still keep showing up. Yes.
You will recover.

Speaker 2 It's survivable.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 helping each other figure out how to survive criticism might be one of the most important things that we can do because it gets in the way, fear of it, and not knowing how to deal with it gets in the way of us doing what we were meant to do on this planet.

Speaker 2 Maybe more than anything else.

Speaker 4 Is the goal to be criticism-free then?

Speaker 2 No, I think it's the goal to understand.

Speaker 2 I think the goal is to understand

Speaker 2 where it all comes from and figure out what is not personal and what is there to help us and make us better.

Speaker 2 So, let's just from here out, let's just think about what's the 95% we don't even bring in the house, we just throw directly into the recycling bin. And what's the small

Speaker 2 percent that we are brave enough to bring inside with us and strong enough and sit with it and let it make us better? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that's what we keep figuring out as we go along and we allow ourselves to care.

Speaker 2 We love you, Pod Squad. Gosh.
We think you're perfect just the way you are.

Speaker 3 I love this conversation. It's so fascinating to me.
And it just takes all these twists and turns.

Speaker 2 Twists and turns. We love you.
This week, remember: when things get hard, be messy, complicated, and afraid and show up anyway

Speaker 2 see you next time word

Speaker 2 bye

Speaker 2 if this podcast means something to you it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first can you please follow or subscribe to we can do hard things following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.