It’s Not Too Late! How We Save the Planet with Dr. Ayana Johnson

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Yo,

we did it.

We did it.

We're here.

How are you?

It is such a treat to me.

How's it going?

Good.

I'm Glennon.

I'm Abby.

I'm Amanda.

It's so nice to be with you.

Thank you for making the time.

This is really an honor to be here.

What a cute book you've got on your shelf.

I mean, it's so cute.

It's so bright.

Also, I was looking at it this morning and it's all like banged up, which I feel like is my only books that I've really like

gripped, brought into the bathtub with me, carried in my purse.

That's what this book has been.

It's been on many journeys.

So glad you've brought that book into the bathroom with me.

Yeah.

Deeply honored.

That's my first feedback to that degree that I've gotten.

It's her most precious space.

It's really not scrolling Instagram, but being like, climate solutions, where are we at?

Like, take poop about it.

Yes.

Yeah.

And sometimes, you know, you need a warm, comforting situation when you're diving into these topics.

And you know, everyone's got to get in the right flow for that.

That's right.

Exactly.

And that's what we're trying to provide today: a warm, cozy

best segue of all time.

Truly,

thank you for noting that.

Whenever anyone says the word segue, I just have to repeat that I've spent my entire life up until two years ago calling it a segue because I had only seen it in writing.

I was definitely one of those kids that read more than people talked to me.

Exactly.

And so I have a lot, like a long list of words.

Same with Glennon.

Every once in a while, I go, wait, would you say, what was the other word?

Sward?

Lots of them.

I I said sward.

I said, everything's going our

way.

Anyway.

Okay, you're in deeper than I am, honestly.

Yeah.

I've caught up on some of those.

Okay.

Dr.

Ayana Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer, and teacher working to help create the best possible climate future.

She co-founded and leads Urban Ocean Lab and authored the book, What If We Get It Right?

Visions of Climate Futures.

She earned a BA in Environmental Science and Public Policy from Harvard University and a PhD in Marine Biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography.

Above all, Ayana is in love with climate solutions.

And that is why we are in love with Ayana.

Yes.

Aw, thank you for having me.

Such a treat to be with you.

We just, of all the people to talk to about this and this moment, we know it's you because, well, obviously we've read your book we followed your work and

in just this kind of

existential moment which i guess the moment's been going on for a long time but will we save the planet we live on or will we not you're just the person to talk to because you are just always insistent upon looking beyond the doom of it all and focusing on the could be

you always say instead of obsessing over what if we blow this we have to ask what if we get it right so good oh my god which really

thank you for bringing that i mean it's worth thinking about at the very least yeah yeah

and isn't it also a way of bringing people into accountability because if we're just talking about the doom then everyone freaks out and shrinks back and you can say it's not my fault

Right?

It's the oil executives, it's the politicians, the PR people, it's the people destroying nature, it's big ag, right?

You can make all these excuses why it's not your fault.

And if it's all

heading toward the apocalypse, then you don't have any responsibility either.

And so I think asking a question like, what if we get it right, is sort of a calling in.

Like, okay, like we still get to shape the future.

It's not totally written yet.

And so if we let go of this binary of apocalypse or paradise and just think about like, how can we build the best possible future together?

Then that's going to require all of us.

And so it's like, all right, well, what's your part of this?

And that's, I've been thinking about it.

It actually feels like that is

my mission or my life's work is to welcome more and more people into finding their roles in climate solutions because we really need everyone because we have to change.

basically everything.

Okay, so we have to change everything.

Okay, great.

So we'll start there and then we'll work backwards.

We'll start.

I mean, just to break that down a little bit, not everything like falling in love and shooting stars and like not everything, everything.

We'll still have families and communities and so much of the sweetness.

That's just who we are as humans, right?

The full range of human emotions and all of that.

But what kind of planet we live on and what other species we share it with and the state of the ecosystems that we're a part part of is very much up for grabs.

And so when I say that we have to change everything, I mean that in a very concrete sense.

Like we need to change our transportation systems and our food systems and we need to update our buildings.

We need to transition from an economy and a society that's based on fossil fuels to one that's renewable and regenerative, right?

So that requires changing a lot of the underlying

systems that support the way we currently live.

But the good news is we have the solutions we need.

It's not a mystery how to have more public transit or have electrified transit and how to insulate buildings and how to make appliances more efficient and how to conserve water and how to prepare for extreme weather.

Like we know all this stuff, how to protect and restore ecosystems.

That's like a third of the solution right there.

So it's not, I feel like we get so caught up in the problem that we don't talk enough about the solutions and the possibilities why if we know what we need to do

why are we not doing it we could ask that about like any number of things right climate or otherwise right there's so many things we know we should do like i should probably exercise more regularly and eat more vegetables and like go to bed earlier you know so to me it doesn't seem unique in that way but i think there's the word accountability that you mentioned already like that's part of it we don't have a lot of accountability when it comes to how we show up necessarily as members of society we have it maybe in our personal relationships in our households but as far as like our civic accountability or our community level responsibility i feel like that's quite lacking in a lot of places.

I have to create that for myself, right, with my friends.

Like, what are we doing?

Who's doing what?

Can we collaborate?

Are there opportunities for

action that I'm missing?

I think a lot of people are thinking about that right now in terms of like the political context in America too.

Like, what can I do to safeguard the people in the places that I love?

Requires doing something beyond your home.

So I think the reason that we're not charging ahead with all these climate solutions we have, there's several answers.

I'm sure I'm going to miss some, but one is for so long the problem was diminished.

And it was that thing like, well, if it's that existential of a problem, like clearly someone would be doing something about this.

Clearly the media would be taking this more seriously.

Clearly this would be like saturating the communications we receive if our quality of life on this planet were all at risk.

And so I think there's that cognitive dissonance between

this is a very serious problem, say the scientists, you know, as it's reported.

It's like scientists say, those crazy scientists.

Scientists are concerned.

Like, why are we not all concerned, right?

So there's this dissonance between

the science, which can feel distant, and like the way that's communicated to us.

So the media has a big role to play in people not taking this seriously enough.

And then the way it's often talked about is that the solutions are

the provenance of like experts, of politicians who are writing the laws, of the engineers who are creating the electric cars, right?

It doesn't often feel like something

that everyone can pitch into,

apart from in this very generic like march, protest, donate, spread the word, lower your personal at-home carbon footprint, which are all like great things to do, but are not enough to get us there unless we're showing up in all these other ways.

Like, are we supporting composting in our communities?

Are we getting bike lanes installed, right?

Are we getting our own homes if we own them off of fossil fuels?

Are we using all of the credits under the Inflation Reduction Act to put in solar panels and induction stoves while those tax credits still exist?

And all of these things that we have to think bigger than ourselves.

And I feel like that's just a muscle that's atrophied

this like civic engagement, this community level engagement in making the world that we want.

And I guess the best kept secret is like, it's just a better world.

If we have cleaner air, because we're not burning fossil fuels, cleaner water, because we're not having like oil spills and fracking problems, right?

If we have healthier food, right, that's not doused in pesticides, which are basically derived from fossil fuels.

We have healthier soils and we have like more biodiversity because of all of this.

We're protecting ecosystems that are absorbing all this carbon.

We also like just more beautiful forests and meadows to walk in and more butterflies and bees, right?

Like there's just so much upside.

Anyone who's driven an electric car is like, oh, these are just better.

So I feel like a lot of it is a comms problem and a lot of it is a greenwashing problem.

Like for so long, we've been told that the way it is is the best way.

And it's just not true.

When I learned the phrase, now we're cooking with gas.

Do you guys remember that?

Oh, yeah.

Now we're cooking with gas.

That's like Johnny Carson was paid to say that by a fossil fuel company.

No.

Popularized that term.

Like before that, everyone was using mostly like electric stoves.

And then we're like, oh, well, the real chefs got to cook with gas.

And like this became the whole thing, right?

Oh my God.

Exxon and other companies in the 70s, 80s, 90s, like knew their own scientists told them exactly what's going to happen from burning fossil fuels.

They explored going into renewable energy.

And then they're like, nah, this is the easier way to make a quarterly earnings that are high.

So we'll just stick down this road.

Like these were all deliberate choices made by a small handful of powerful white men, basically, if we're being really blunt about it.

But it is now up to all of us to figure out how

to turn this around.

And so I think It's important to say that like whether you're a teacher or a nurse or a project manager or in charge of like procurement or booking guests on TV shows or an artist or whatever it is that you do, if there's a way that you can be part of pushing solutions forward, of helping people find their own roles of just like rolling up your sleeves and figuring out how you can help.

I mean, don't give up, I guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Don't give up.

Don't quit on the future of life on Earth.

That's like the one option I would like to take off the table for us.

Right.

There's many reasonable responses, possibly, but not giving up on the future of the planet doesn't seem reasonable.

One of the parts of your work that feels so revolutionary, and I'm so glad you just mentioned it feels like very in the zeitgeist of this moment in terms of what we're experiencing politically and civically is that

it seems

like

the rise in power of Trumpism, it's really easy

as a galvanizing force to be against something that is very easy.

It is harder to imagine and to galvanize people towards a vision

of something better.

You know, it's easy to break.

It's harder to make.

And that is, I feel like, what the moment that we're in and what you identify so beautifully is like that people only run toward what they can see.

We know these solutions are there, but like we can't see that picture.

We can't see that world that is different than the world we're in.

And so if we could see it, we wouldn't have to convince people to run toward it.

They would just do it because they'd want that for themselves.

And I think that's true of whatever is going to get us out of MAGA is going to be someone painting that picture of the different way and that people want to go toward that.

And I think it's true of this world that we're living in with the planet.

So, like, when you, with everything you know, see that world,

what are the irresistible parts of that world that you see when we get it right?

So, this is the very last chapter of my book is my answer to that question.

There are 20 interviews in the book with all these different experts, right?

From farmers and foresters to AI executives and museum curators and environmental lawyers and community organizers and indigenous leaders and youth activists and all these just freaking brilliant folks, landscape designers, all of it, finance folks.

And

the last chapter of the book, I try to put together my thoughts along with the lessons that I've learned from all of them.

which I had mentioned, not to like avoid directly answering your question, but to preface my answer by saying, I think this is a time for collective wisdom.

This is not a book I could have written by myself without quoting all these other people.

This is a time to be pulling from all these different threads of lessons that people have learned and weaving them together.

And when I tried to do that at the end of the book, the first sentence I wrote was, If we get it right, the world is a lot more green, more full of life.

And that, to me, I'm like, full stop, I'm in

because I'm just such a lover of the life on this planet.

This term biophilia, which was offered up to us by the scientist E.O.

Wilson, really describes this innate sense of loving life, of loving nature that we all have that tends to kind of atrophy as we grow old if we're not careful to continuing to nurture that.

I think about what changes in terms of what

society values when we get it right.

And one of the parts of this clean energy transition that we need is just like a lot of electricians installing solar panels, rewiring things, improving the grid.

Right.

So, one of the things that I imagine is that when we get it right, electricians do very well on dating apps because everyone's like, oh, these are the people building the future.

Like, nice.

Extremely hot.

Nice.

That's so good.

So, more ways than one.

Yeah.

Sparks are for life.

Exactly.

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I also imagine that like culture will have caught up with our climate reality.

Right now, we have just

very little coming out of Hollywood or music or pop culture that shows us these visions of what the future could look like that give us something more concrete to work toward.

We have a lot of apocalyptic imagery

in films, right?

And if that's all we have, it's sort of like, okay, well, we don't want that.

Great.

And that's not really enough to motivate people.

And it doesn't give us a vision that we can see ourselves like fitting into,

which I think is, you know, some of the resistance to people to this transition.

from fossil fuels to clean energy is that people are worried they're going to get left behind their ways of life their communities etc so the more we can create and show examples of,

no, no, there's a place for everyone in this future that we're building together for you and the people, the communities that you love.

I mean, I guess we could figure out like electric monster trucks or something like that if we had to.

There's like ways to adapt our traditions, right?

I talk about this in the book with Paola Antonelli, who's a senior curator at the Museum of Modern Art in New York.

And she talks about consumerism as, of course, part part of the problem.

But there are ways to scratch that itch that are not bad for the planet.

Like, I remember being in college and a young professional just being so excited about clothing swaps.

Like, I'm going to find a new cardigan in this pile of stuff other people don't want anymore, right?

And it's so social and so delightful and so giggly.

And you're just sharing things and you end up with a bunch of new stuff, new to you stuff.

And you've had like a great afternoon with your girlfriends.

And so there just are so many other ways, I think,

to satisfy all of these different human desires for like having beautiful things and sharing beautiful experiences with people that aren't about extraction and harming nature.

Yeah.

So I imagine a world that's like still very much familiar, but maybe with like fewer desk jobs and more people like out in the world making the world that we want to see.

I imagine like a more humane pace of life.

I mean, this is just my personal dream.

Like I imagine a world with fewer emails.

Like

sell everybody right there.

Yeah.

There's just so much money that goes into subsidizing fossil fuels, like millions of dollars a day from our government and supporting fossil fuel companies.

So I imagine all the things we could do with those resources instead.

Isn't it true that like 70% of all of the carbon, all of the environmental impact comes from those companies and we subsidize them with millions of dollars a day?

Yeah, there's a lot of ways to slice that statistic, but fossil fuel corporations in America receive subsidies from the federal government, our taxpayer dollars.

It's like written into these laws of Congress that are actually quite difficult to unwind.

I understand.

And that's money setting our futures on fire.

And so I'm really grateful to young people who bring this sort of moral clarity to this conversation.

Us grownups can get caught up in the nuance and create gray areas larger than they need to be when we can just say, like, it's actually wrong

to set the future on fire, to leave this kind of a world to future generations.

We need to figure out how to do better.

We need to figure out how to make sure our taxpayer dollars are going to secure a good world for them.

And so when young people stand up for themselves with this sort of irreverence, like this, are you fucking kidding me kind of energy, like, what are you guys deciding to do?

That moral clarity of youth, I think, is critical to harness for this and have some sort of

multi-generational

approach to this that includes them too.

One of the things I kind of want to talk about, because I think as an adult, I've gone through a life.

We've all gone through a life and we've become accustomed to some of our ways.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like the big blocker for people to really accept the fact that climate solutions are really possible is that people don't want to change their everyday lives.

They are comfortable in the consuming of products, they're comfortable ordering from Amazon because it makes their life more convenient and all of the things.

And I think that what the listener might want to hear is what are some things that they can be doing actively to

create just not a better necessarily future, but like to create building blocks around

helping,

helping teach your children.

And it doesn't feel like something's being taken away from you.

You know what I'm saying?

Yes, because it's like when you're talking and for the first time, even though I know you've said this a million times in your work, but I'm just starting to understand in my body what you're saying for the first time.

It's like, what's destroying the planet is what's destroying our lives.

It's like the making efficiency and more money and more the thing

is what's destroying the planet.

And it's also what's destroying our days and our connection to each other and our neighborhoods and our peace and our inability to rest.

We are being mined.

and destroyed the same way the planet is being mined and destroyed.

And so if we create this thing together, it's not like there's not a bunch of things we can't do now.

It's like, no, no, no.

We're saving ourselves by changing the goal.

Yeah.

And I think we're also in denial about the facts that like life actually isn't perfect right now.

I get that people fear change.

I totally feel that.

But I don't think it's the life everyone wants to feel disconnected from their neighbors, to have every little thing they want to arrive at their doorstep, to never have like cute chats about the the weather at the hardware store.

I love those freaking chats.

And that's actually where you can build community across political divides.

We actually might need a little more small talk.

That'll keep our small businesses open.

That'll keep our communities thriving, right?

That'll have a lower carbon footprint.

All these things can be intertwined in a really beautiful way.

And one of the things that I wish people would think about more is how can we repair things?

We're so into this disposable mindset that we you know your toaster breaks you're just like oh well throw it in the trash

do we not have places we can take these things right part of my vision amanda for the future is that we have repair shops in every community so that we're not wasting all those like metals and materials that were mined out of the earth to create these things that we use in our lives.

I think it's such a badge of honor to have your sweaters mended and your blender re-sharpened, re-motor,

reworked.

But Abi, to your question, I think so much of the discussion about how to address the climate crisis has been framed as one of sacrifice.

And

first of all, As an athlete, you know, like there is some sacrifice to get what you want sometimes.

And like, that's okay.

Like it's freaking worth it.

Like you don't want to lift that weight, whatever.

You will be very excited to hold that trophy.

That's right.

That's right.

And so first of all, I want to sort of not let that be a dirty word.

Like we can work for the things that we want.

But I remember when Al Gore's movie came out, An Inconvenient Truth, whenever that was like early 2000s, I was just like, that's a weird title.

I truly did not understand the meaning of that title until a few years ago.

And I was like, oh, I get it now.

Like change.

People don't want to change some of these things.

It's inconvenient to think about change.

But I guess I would challenge us all to think about like, what is it actually that we're holding on to?

Yeah.

Right.

Are we holding on to like lunchables as the thing we don't want to give up?

Right.

Like all this fossil fuel based plastic and like ham from a disgusting polluting,

you know, factory farm.

Like, is that the thing that we like can't give up because it's so convenient?

We know that Americans are very lonely, have fewer friends, you know, than people did generations ago.

Like our happiness levels are low.

So when we fear change of our society, I also wonder if we're just not being honest with ourselves, that there is something missing now, that it's not perfect now.

That if we think about turning our lawns into biodiverse gardens that welcome butterflies and grow food that we can share with our neighbors and like feed to our kids, wouldn't that be nicer nicer than having to mow your lawn every weekend totally i know yeah totally and i think what you're getting at like what's clen and i feel like i'm feeling it too

if we aren't connected with nature and we're so disconnected in a way that we are ordering things into our house and we're abusing our choices in a way

There is this part of me that when I do think about climate change,

I do have a part of me that's like, there's nothing I can do.

And that feels so terrible that there's almost like a frozenness to me that I don't know how I can even move.

But I think, Glennon, what you're saying is like, when we're acting irresponsibly with nature, it will affect us.

Exactly.

And we don't know that that part is.

the thing that might be able to instigate us because we talk about this all the time on this podcast.

Well, my intentions and being aligned and being in alignment with my life.

It's like, wow, wow, we really need to take it even more deeply into like the nature talk.

We do need to be

more because we are nature.

We're not the only species on this planet.

There's like 8 million something other species we're supposed to be sharing this planet with.

And I would say we're not doing a great job of that right now.

And to remember that we are part of nature instead of just living on top of it.

I remember when I was a kid, this is going to be a weird anecdote, but I grew up in Brooklyn in New York City and there was some sort of repair work going on with pipes, and they were digging up the sidewalk.

And I remember seeing this like rich red-brown dirt under the sidewalk and just thinking, like,

there's dirt here?

Like, it just seems like concrete and asphalt, right?

Like you forget that we're just like building on top of nature.

And so this is a little bit of just like wordplay, but I try to imagine what it would be like to live within nature instead of on top of it.

And as we think about things like the wildfires in LA, that's what happens when you live on top of nature with this hubris that you can dominate it.

And like you're not a part of these natural cycles.

And it leads to some like really awful, painful, devastating, lethal consequences.

And so as

all this burning of fossil fuels and all this destroying of nature has changed the dynamics of our planet, of our weather, of our climate, of extreme weather events, right?

Not just fires, but flooding and sea level horizon, hurricanes and drought and all of it.

I think we need to have a bit more humility, honestly, that we can't like control all of nature and that we need to also

as well at the same time as trying to move solutions forward adapt to the world as it's changing

around us

but i also like abby what you said about feeling overwhelmed and not knowing what to do, I want to address that specifically because, well, A, I guess that's like a really important first step.

And I think that applies to any number of challenges that we face as individuals, of course.

But that this is also an opportunity to get really creative about how we want to be part of solutions, right?

If the world of solutions includes like changing politics, changing culture, changing transportation and buildings and our energy systems, right?

All of this, then that means there's like infinite ways that we can show up and be part of that solution.

And so one of the cornerstones of the book is this climate action Venn diagram, which is akin to like the Japanese Ikigai for finding your purpose, if people are familiar with that.

And so it's just three circles.

Hilariously, I drew this before I'd seen Ikigai, which has a fourth circle, which is how can you make money doing the thing?

Totally was like yeah damn it yeah but for the capitalists out there i think that that's an important point because we're missing there's an actual opportunity oh yeah that big oil is taking advantage of that there is an opportunity that could be utilized in the big capitalistic world space totally and go get your subsidies exactly totally

there's an absolute market for clean energy and all this stuff i mean do you know how much electricians make an hour this is a good job people being part of this energy transition is not necessarily a financial sacrifice, right?

But if we think of at least the three circles and then how to pay your bills is a fourth thing.

But what are you good at?

I think is where I really want people to start.

Like what skills, what resources, what networks do you have to bring to the table?

And that's totally different for each of us, right?

If Glenn and you and I were doing the same thing, to advance climate solutions and I'm like a marine biologist, black girl from Brooklyn who's an absolute policy nerd.

It would make no sense for us to do the same thing, right?

So for me, I started Urban Ocean Lab, this policy think tank for the future of coastal cities.

That's my thing

because it's where my skills and interests sort of where what I have to offer can align.

So that first circle is what are you good at?

And I know that that can be intimidating for people because we all think we're not, our insecurities come to the surface in that, but your skills, your resources, your networks.

And then the second circle is what is the work that needs doing?

So there are hundreds, if not thousands of climate solutions that we can all be working on.

And we can't do it all.

And so to make it real

and doable, we have to pick something.

Do you want more rooftop solar in your community?

Do you want community level or municipal composting?

Because food waste is actually a big source of methane, which is a super potent greenhouse gas.

So if we can just compost that instead of putting it in landfill, that actually really matters.

Do you want to advocate for on the money side of things, like helping people move their savings, their retirement out of funds that are supporting fossil fuels?

This is actually, for most people, the biggest thing they can do in terms of benefit for the planet.

Because if your money is in there, your retirement savings is invested in part in fossil fuels, in the continued extraction and drilling, that's super bad.

Watching you two look at each other.

Well, I'm making you noticed.

I'm excited for you to report back if you talk to your accountant.

We are already.

I think we already did that.

We already did that.

Yes.

All right.

Well, tell me.

How did you do that?

You just look at if your retirement is there?

Yeah.

So it turns out if you have like more than $50,000 saved up for your retirement, which a lot of people do by the time they're middle-aged, then if that money is not explicitly not invested in fossil fuels, some part of it is and that's doing more harm than all this going vegan and riding your bike stuff did what you could do in the balance so Amanda we just asked for a specific meeting to go through every single thing that our money was invested in and we're just like no no no no I had to google a bunch remember googling a bunch of them to find out they were like secretly bad

yeah but you can do that

So it's personally divesting from personally divesting from fossil fuels.

Great.

It was a bad day.

I'm not going to lie.

It was a hard day.

But it's like a day.

Yeah.

And then you're done and you don't really have to think about it all the time anymore.

And like your money is no longer funding the apocalypse, which is like great.

Yeah.

You know?

So please, everyone who's listening, this is a very concrete administrative task that you can do that would collectively make a really significant difference.

And there's resources like bankforgood.org that has information on different banks that are doing right by the planet, and greenportfolio.com on the investing side that has this curated set of resources there.

So, I'm not going to give you like the answer, but those are two resources that are a good place to start.

Okay, that was sort of a tangent, but everyone go do that one thing.

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So what is the work that he's doing is this second circle.

The first circle is what are you good at, right?

And then the third one is, what brings you joy?

And I kind of wish I'd named it like satisfaction or something like that, because when people think of joy, I think they think of giggling and skipping and just glee as opposed to feeling content and like gratified that you've done your part.

Because to bring it back, there's like, oh, I spent a lot of time writing emails, which I wouldn't describe as joyful, but I do have amazing collaborators.

I do feel really good about the projects that I'm a part of.

And that's what keeps me going in this work, right?

Don't Don't pick the thing that makes you miserable, even if you're good at it, because there's so many other things that need to be done.

And so, if everyone can just find their way to the heart of their own personal climate action Venn diagram, I think that would make so much more of a difference than if we each do some generic checklist of like vote.

protest, donate, spread the word, lower your carbon footprint, even though those are completely important things to do.

If we're not leveraging our unique skills and superpowers, if we're not doing it in ways that feel delightful that inspire us to keep going and do more then we're just not going to get where we need to go so that's my pitch everyone bust out your colored pencils draw your venn diagram and i kind of leave out the money part of it as a fourth circle because for some people it's not going to be your day job maybe it's more the way you show up in your community although i think we can all

in our day jobs, think about how to help make our companies or the ways we do business gentler on the planet too.

So we can think about it in terms of like our civic Venn diagram, our professional Venn diagram, and our personal one.

People get stuck on the personal, right?

We get so obsessed with like, am I carrying the right water bottle and am I like driving the right car and am I not using Ziploc bags anymore?

And they use up all their energy on that and never get to the big pitching in to societal and transformation piece.

So don't use it all navel gazing, all your energy.

Right.

Yeah.

I mean, I love the way you did it because it's not like, what is the thing you're most afraid of using that energy?

It's like, what's the thing you love about being alive?

What's the thing you love about your planet?

Even your coastal work.

It's not a coincidence, your heritage and your father's island where he's from.

And like, that is born from like a real deep love inside of you for the people and for their way of life and preserving that throughout the world.

So it's motivated by a love of a thing instead of a fear of a thing.

It's so corny sometimes, but it's just true.

Like it just all comes back to love.

And I did not expect that to be one of the through lines of this book, talking to all of these technical experts, but it just kept coming up.

Yeah.

That like love is the answer in all these different ways.

Love of,

you know, community, love of each other, love of nature, love of these traditions and like ways of being.

What also came up a lot was like shareholder capitalism is going to be the death of us with like trying to maximize quarterly earnings and like that being the goal.

So it wasn't like, it's not like a touchy family history kind of a book.

It's connected.

It's opposite.

But that was very interesting and that like community is the answer.

That doing these things together is the answer.

That being isolated, you can't solve climate change by yourself.

So if we set that aside as an option, we also set aside the option of giving up on the future of life on earth, then it just becomes this very tractable question of, okay, what can I be a part of?

Right?

This is not like everyone go start your own nonprofit.

It's like, what's happening out there that like I can contribute to and like make better and help grow.

And I think because of the way our society is structured right now, that's not our first thought.

Our first thought is like, okay, well, what's my individual separate action?

As opposed to, is there an organization in my community already working on this that I could support?

It's good.

You know, what's going on out there?

Because there's a lot of people doing a lot of cool stuff that certainly all of us on this call could help with and support.

And I think that's a much more exciting way to approach this because it's also less lonely.

And like the worst case scenario is like you make a new friend doing a climate project in your neighborhood.

Yeah.

You know, I'm listening listening to you thinking about how I have a little bit let myself get stuck with all of this and I have

allowed myself to go into some frozen existential dread at night thinking about what this new administration is doing.

And, you know, I was thinking about last night the idea that is constantly being thrown around now that we can just like throw away the planet and get another one.

We cannot all move to Mars.

I'm just going to put that on the table.

That's not how this is going to end.

But that's like an underlying pitch here.

That is a pitch here.

And

how utterly devastating that is to consider in terms of even just being a mother on this earth at leaving people on this planet and how disgusting of a philosophy that is.

And then while you were talking, I was just thinking about you talking about mending a sweater.

and how I'm railing against leaders treating our planet that way, but in honor of my children, but my children constantly watch me throw things away that I don't need anymore, constantly watch me donate, consume.

You know what I'm saying, though, not take care.

And it just makes me think of like the way we do the small things is the way we do the big things.

If we were a culture who was morally disgusted by overconsumption in our homes, if we became people who didn't throw things away over and over again just because something shinier and better better came around.

We would also be people who would never be considering throwing away our planet in general.

It is a very slippery slope.

And I think I've been thinking, these other people are so bad

while

in a microcosm living the very way I'm despising the pitch of.

We all do have some responsibility for sure, but I do think it's important to be clear that we don't all have equal blame in this problem, right?

Like, there are some people who are like the literal bad guys who are like, We're just going to set your future on fire.

Fossil fuel executives are causing a lot more harm than you are.

We could all be doing better and we should be.

And where that kind of leadership is lacking, it's even more important that we step up and try to shift that status quo and make them obsolete.

But I don't want people to come away from this feeling primarily guilt at their personal consumption habits.

But there's, of course, like, I think the other part of this, like, we all know how to change that

if we want to, right?

There's a convenience and a routine that we get into.

But to be just extremely literal about the sweater example, I went to see a friend last night and I

had cleaned out my closet and I was like, I don't wear these sweaters anymore.

But I was like, I know if I donate them, they may not end up finding the right home.

And this friend who's newly single, who's starting to date, and I was like, these would be great, baby sweaters.

Let me bring these along and see if she wants to incorporate these into her wardrobe.

And she was like, oh, these are going to be absolutely a hit.

And I was like, and if they're not, and like, you know, re-gift them along, right?

And so I love trying to find the right home for things

as I no longer have a need for them because then you kind of like weasel your way into all your friends' lives and these tangents.

Oh, I love it.

I'm like, if you have a first kiss in this sweater, I want to be the first to read this.

Name the baby Dr.

Ayana.

That makes it feel irresistible.

Ever since the election, we've been talking over and over again about that Tony Cade Bumbera idea of resistance is not enough.

Like we have to make the revolution irresistible.

And I think that a lot about your work in that context.

It's not guilt exactly that I'm feeling.

It's, oh,

all of this work isn't.

My life is so hard and I'm so stressed and lonely and busy.

And I can't also save the planet.

All right, people.

No.

It's like, my life is so stressful and busy and isolated and lonely.

And so I'm going to enter in this revolution so that my life can be less stressful and lonely.

And it's what's killing the planet is what's killing our connection in our lives.

And you'll sleep so much better at night if you're just trying.

if you're contributing, right?

Like no one of us can change the outcome of humanity's trajectory but honestly like even when i'm feeling overwhelmed it's really reassuring to know that i'm trying

like if i have on my gravestone like she tried

i'll count that as a win right like she wasn't a quitter she like tried to make the future a little better than it would otherwise have been and so in one way i want us like raise the bar for ourselves like don't be passive observers of the decline of our society right because also that feels like shit.

Yes.

And find a way to be a part of making things just better than they otherwise would have been beyond your household.

Let's set the bar a little bit higher than that.

And I think that's the part we miss.

Like that feels good.

To be a part of solutions feels good.

To team up with your friends and neighbors and your colleagues to do a cool project just like feels good.

And it can be super creative.

And there can be dance parties involved.

I I mean, the last page of my book is my anti-apocalypse mixtape.

I'm like, we have to have the right soundtrack for this, you guys.

Obviously.

For anyone who wants to hear this, there's links on the book website, getitright.earth, where you can go listen to the playlist on Spotify or Apple.

If you just need some tunes to get you pumped and to help you feel all your climate feelings, I've got you.

That's a good start.

That is a good first start.

It is about feeling good, right?

I think it's about feeling useful, actually.

That's specifically the word

I'm drawn to, because there's so much debate about hope or fear and like, what's the better motivator?

And I'm like, I don't know.

I just try to be useful because I don't feel hopeful all the time.

And I just want people to know that's okay.

Like, you don't have to be optimistic in order to like find a way to make things better.

So.

Yeah, there's a poem in the book by Marge Piercy that's called To Be of Use.

And I come back to that one a lot because I just think, like, okay, well, how can I be useful in this moment?

Not worry about being hopeful, but just focus on being useful.

That's good.

That's a really good ending.

Yeah.

We'll stop there.

Thank you.

You're so great.

It's a really treat to talk with you.

Thank you, guys.

All right, y'all.

Go listen to the playlist.

Feel your feelings and then make your circles.

Okay.

We love you.

We can do hard things.

Thank God.

Bye.

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