How to Say No: Boundaries with Nedra Glover Tawwab (Best Of)

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Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

I just want you all pod squatters to know that you just missed a scintillating conversation between the three of us where I asked everyone to please watch their facial expressions on the pod because my listening face is, what is it?

It's so weird.

It's different.

It's different.

My face, the way it looks, when I'm listening hard.

Yeah, when you're, when you're in your act of listening, you like, you get your squint eye and like, you know, you have one eye that squints a little bit more than the other and then your mouth goes down.

Yes, it's special.

And I, I, I, it's because I'm concentrating really hard.

I know.

It's because I'm really, but, and by the way, I, my whole life, I thought, oh, my eye just squints, but really my eyes are two different sizes.

Mine are too.

No way.

Yeah, they are.

I just thought it happened in pictures because I did.

So, so I just thought, that's so weird how my eyes in pictures look different sizes.

And then

I realized, oh, wait, if in every picture they're different sizes, that just means they're different sizes.

Let me check it in the mirror

oh same same well you know sister about the person at a signing line when i took a i take all the pictures with people and one lady waited the whole nother hour to come back and say do you think we could take another picture your eyes look like they're two different sizes in my picture and i'm like that's just what i look like

sorry can't help you so super excited to talk today with an expert about boundaries and i want to tell you how we found this amazing amazing person.

So I was a while back talking to our dear beloved Lovi Ajay Jones.

We were just having a conversation about speaking of fix your face.

She's the one who did.

Oh my fix your face.

God.

That's right.

That's right.

Lovely, I would be doing speaking engagements with her and I'd be on stage.

We were speaking with a group.

And so we would always sit next to each other and get in trouble together.

But If somebody was speaking and I didn't like what they were saying, I just have no poker face.

There was a huge screen behind us.

So they would be speaking, and then my face would be on the screen with like this huge what the fuck face.

So Levy used to squeeze my leg and say,'Glennen, fix your face, fix your face.' So, anyway, I'm talking to Levi

and I'm telling her my boundaries predicament.

And my boundaries predicament is that I lived the first half of my life with no boundaries and I hated myself.

And so now I over-corrected and I I live my life with so many boundaries that I hate everyone else.

So

I would like

to find balance, boundary balance.

So Lovi suggested Nedra Glover Tawab.

So we are going to have Nedra on the pod today to talk about boundary balance.

And also, what are you hoping to talk about today, Sissy?

I am fascinated fascinated about the concept of unconditional love because

to me, it seems like what that's saying is that

there is love with no boundaries.

And I don't

have that.

I don't either.

So I want to hear the good professor of boundaries.

talk to me about that.

Is it real?

That's so good because I have much more of a leniency when it comes to people.

And so I'm more.

I'm more capable of that unconditional love.

And it's interesting being married to somebody who is more boundaried in that way.

I think that that is maybe a source of

friction at times because I'm more,

and I don't mean to say this, I'm more open and you have a tendency to be more, what word would you use?

Closed like fork knocks.

And so that poses problems.

I love that, sister.

That's really good.

I'm actually really interested in talking about the concept of boundaries and those who I sometimes notice as being boundaried sometimes can be seen as a-holes.

Right.

Like your wife.

No, I wasn't saying any names.

But for me, I very much am other people minded.

I'm very big people, people pleaser.

And so I don't want to come off as an a-hole.

I want to be kind of you want to be a good guy.

I want to be a good guy.

You want to be loved.

So your question is,

can I be very, very loved?

And is it possible to have a boundary?

Yeah.

And my question is, can I have all my boundaries?

And is it possible to have love?

Yes.

That's good.

Okay, let's figure it out.

Let's figure it out, y'all.

Can nice people have boundaries?

Can boundaried people be nice?

So boundaries, everyone talks about this as something that they're all struggling with.

So we're going to get to people's questions because because we get more questions about this than most anything else.

But it is clear that these boundaries are very, very good for us.

Like, people who have and hold healthy boundaries have the keys to the queendom, it seems.

Like, when you look at the data, folks with healthy boundaries have better sleep, less burnout, longer-lasting and healthier relationships, less stress, and more joy.

So, it really seems like it's an idea worth sharing.

Yes.

Isn't that like TED talks or something?

Okay.

All right.

Well, I think it's the end.

It's a thing.

It's an idea we can do.

It's a

hard thing worth sharing.

Excellent.

Let's go ask these things of our expert.

Nedra Glover Tawab is a licensed therapist and sought-after relationship expert.

She is the author of the New York Times bestseller, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, and the forthcoming book, Drama Free.

Hell yes.

Available 3-7-2023.

That's amazing.

Nedra is also the founder and owner of the group therapy practice Kaleidoscope Counseling, which helps people create healthy relationships.

Her philosophy is that a lack of boundaries and assertiveness underlie most relationship issues.

And her gift is helping people create healthy relationships with themselves and others.

Nedra, welcome.

Hi, Hi, that was such a warm welcome.

I think I want to record it and just take it and use it for everything that I do now.

Okay, perfect.

Nudra, this is my sister.

This is my wife, Abby.

Thank you for joining us.

You're welcome.

It's funny when you mention you're related to someone, you immediately look for like, yeah, you have the same nose.

Yeah.

Well, we do have the same eyes.

I loved your book, Nudra.

And I was fascinated to know

that

so many of of the things that so many of us are struggling with are in fact

symptomatic of not being healthy boundaries.

So, can you walk us through some of those things?

Because I feel like this is a case of you might have a boundary problem if, and then everything that my friends are talking about happens.

Yeah.

So, as a practicing therapist, this started to show up first as work-life balance issues.

So many of my clients come in with being parents, being partners, managing a social life.

We don't know how to say no.

We don't know how to leave work on time or really go on vacation.

I am amazed at the amount of people who do not take vacation days.

It's almost like homework.

Like use your vacation before December.

Don't even wait till December.

Use your vacation.

It is

so normal for us to not think about ourselves and to allow the burnout to come in with work that we're just like, this is normal.

Burnout is normal.

Teach me how to manage it.

It's teach me boundaries so you don't experience the burnout.

I think another big area where I notice boundary issues is relationships when we're mad at our partners, we're upset about how we parent, we're upset at the requests coming in from friends or how our parents are hovering, all of these things.

It's difficult conversations that we need to have.

And those conversations

are really around boundaries.

This is happening.

This is what I need to feel better.

So what are the ways that people come to you feeling?

They walk into you.

You said burnout is one.

How does burnout manifest?

And like, what other feelings are they having that they don't even know are a result of not having boundaries?

I think with burnout, what we see a lot of is people wanting to leave their jobs.

They're wanting to go on leave from work.

They're wanting to switch positions because it is the boss.

It could not be them causing some of these issues.

So they're looking for a fresh start.

I would say the predominant feeling that I'm seeing is anxiety.

It is anxiety around how to speak up, when to speak up, curating the perfect sentences to say to other people.

And another thing that we see is depression.

You know, you feel disempowered to really own and control some of these situations.

It's like, I can't do anything about it.

So I will suffer with these things.

I can't do anything about how my parents treat me or my partner, you know, doing this or not doing that.

So I feel defeated.

So how do you define boundaries?

So if somebody's feeling this way, somebody comes to you, they're anxious, they're depressed, they're burnt out, they're feeling apathetic or resentful,

you as a therapist go, okay, there's boundary issues here.

When you say that, what do you mean?

Like, what is a boundary?

How do you define it?

So, I define boundaries as needs that need to be expressed verbally or through your behavior.

It can be you saying to a person, I need help with, no,

I would like more of, please don't do blank.

Or it could be you stepping back in a relationship when you've stated a boundary.

It could be you leaving work at the time that you've designated as your cutoff time.

It's funny.

This is how I know my clients follow me on social media because they start using the word boundaries.

I don't use the word boundaries a lot.

I call it so many other things.

What are your expectations for this situation?

I wonder what you're needing here.

I wonder what's causing you to be upset.

I recognize it as a boundary issue, but I don't like to scare people off by over-boundary the situation.

Like you have a boundary issue.

It's more like you're having an issue.

What do you need to communicate?

I love that.

Because also when we say boundary, it makes it sound like we're building a fortress around ourselves.

And that kind of feels scary and negative and aggressive.

So you think of in terms of, oh, you just don't know how to get what you need yet.

Right.

Is that what you're saying?

Like you haven't figured out how to say or believe that you even are worthy of getting what you need.

Absolutely.

I heard you say that

boundaries are what you need to feel safe and supported.

And that felt so warm to me.

And I just, it was interesting because that seems so particular to the person.

And I've kind of been tripped up before by thinking, okay, boundaries have to be reasonable.

You can't just be out here with some crazy boundary.

You know, it has to be making sense within the ecosystem.

But is it possible that you would have just some idiosyncratic boundary that made you feel safe and supported?

And that would be justified even if it made no sense to the rest of the world?

Sure.

Like, what if someone said, you know, hey, after six o'clock, we don't turn on lights in our house.

Please don't turn the light on.

I mean, it might not make sense to you, but it's their thing.

If you're in their house, can you respect it?

Ooh, I like that example.

What are some weird ones like that that people?

I feel like I'm about a weird boundary person.

Confirm.

Because a highly sensitive person might be somebody who has more.

Didn't you say at some point that boundaries are like the instructions you gave the babysitter watching your newborn?

Like absolutely.

You're the newborn.

Yes, I am the newborn.

Oh my gosh.

first kid instructions for babysitters.

I apologize, but they were so long and thoughtful.

I looked at Pinterest for ideas.

It was like a book.

It was my first book, I think.

It was,

it was very detailed, and it probably came across as weird, especially if you're giving it to your parents who is watching your child.

I used to do that.

Yeah.

It's like, okay, I know you don't know how to burp a baby mom, but

these are are the steps we go through.

I used to leave my parents the directions that they had to read Goodnight Moon, and then I'd put little index cards in between the pages so I could make sure that they did it because I would see if they were gone or not.

Now, that

is some crazy.

No control issues here at Nedro.

I don't think that's a boundary.

That's just crazy.

That's just control.

Yeah.

Okay, now speaking of right alignment.

I'm crazy and control.

I realize that the vast majority of us need more boundaries.

So I don't want to spend too much time on this because we all live on the boundaryless zone.

But is there a world in which

somebody has a boundary with you where it's a kind of red flag?

What if they said, I need to look through your phone?

I need the passwords to your email.

That's what I need to be safe and supportive.

Is it always the case that we should be accommodating people's boundaries?

Somebody else's boundaries.

That's good.

That's a really good one.

I would say that is not a boundary as much as that is something to do with attachment.

I think we can't over

analyze things as boundary issues.

And I think we do that sometimes when we're trying to justify our behavior.

My boundary is you have to give me your phone.

I would say you're trying to control someone else's behaviors, their life, their interactions.

And that's very different than managing yourself with your boundaries.

I think in that situation, the boundary would be, I will not look through your phone or, you know, something else.

I don't think it would be, you have to show me your phone to make me feel safe in this relationship.

And how do you deal with marriage boundaries?

I'm somebody who wants the lights turned off at 6 p.m.

Not really, but like,

but my partner would like to see.

after 6 p.m.

So I say, what makes me feel safe and warm and taken care of is to have the lights out.

And my partner says, what makes me feel safe and warm is to not have the lights out.

How do you negotiate two married people's boundaries?

Because the Venn diagram of boundaries is something that we're constantly

evolving.

And a lot of people kind of rely on, well,

you knew this when you got into the relationship.

Actually, people evolve.

They're always changing.

Sometimes things change.

Sometimes you become somebody who wants to turn the lights off at six o'clock and the other person becomes a person that doesn't want that.

How do you negotiate and navigate that?

Well, I think about how do we accept differences, how do we acknowledge them, and how do we live with them?

I think if you are in a home with another person, hopefully, it is a home that has multiple rooms.

And perhaps you can go to a room and turn the lights out.

And this other person, they can go in this room and have the lights as bright as they want to have them.

We may not be able to exist in the same space.

And maybe sometimes I come over to your well-lit room, and sometimes you come over to my dark room.

And at nighttime, when we agree that it can be dark after 10 o'clock, we collectively cuddle up together.

That's in a perfect world.

Now, I think the challenge is

in relationships when we are living with people, roommates, marriages, just partnered situations, what's really tough is different living styles, right?

Like, I am a quiet person.

So loud TVs and

I see that look, you know, loud TVs and music.

I am often caught sitting in my closet because I can't even hear it if I sit in my closet.

So I have a whole meditation pillow.

I just hang out in there because I think you should be able to listen to the loud TV and you should be able to listen to the music.

I'm going to go to my little secret spot and just zone out for a minute.

Now, there are times times where I will say, you know, to my kids on the weekends, especially before 9 a.m., you have to wear headphones if you're listening to something.

I don't want to hear anything before 9.

But after 9 o'clock, it's, I don't know, whatever this thing is.

And it's super loud.

It's like, is anyone watching this?

Like,

what's happening?

You just saved our marriage.

You just solved a pretty big marriage.

Love you.

Was like, you will talk to Nedra.

You will talk to Nedra, Lennon Doyle.

Okay, because what you are saying is the opposite of like codependence and control.

It's not me and Abby sitting in a room discussing lightness and darkness until we die.

It's remembering there are separate rooms in our house.

And it's not me going upstairs and saying, this is insane how loud this TV is.

It's like going to meeting.

It literally just happened the other day, y'all.

She walked out of the bedroom.

She wasn't even in.

Nobody was in the room I was in.

And I was listening.

I was watching a TV show.

Happened to be like a fight scene.

And it was this, it was distressing to her.

She opens the door.

It's supposed to be a fight scene, Nedra.

She opens the door and she's like, who is listening to the TV?

That loud.

I was like,

it's just me up here.

And that was upsetting to her.

So this is good.

This is good, Nedra.

This is so perfect because what you just said,

it sounds so simple.

Like you go into a room, you go into a a room, but it presupposes a giant host of very evolved thinking.

We don't actually have to be in a relationship beside each other all the time.

That's right.

We don't have to sit in this room where I'm just shooting devil darts out of my eyes at you because how the hell can you have these lights and can't see on my face that I need them darker?

Acknowledging each other's needs.

and being separate and not thinking that threatens your love.

It's very good.

Nedra, I do have a, I have a quick question.

I think it's really interesting how linked boundaries are with knowing what you need.

How much work do you do

talking to your patients about

them working out what they really want?

Because I have struggled in my life creating boundaries because I didn't really know exactly what I wanted or how to express that and communicate that with other people.

Because it's two different steps.

First, knowing what you need and then learning how to express that.

That's right.

I would say the real work is is paying attention when you are having uncomfortable feelings, and that will reveal what the needs are.

When I am feeling anxious, what is the thing?

Is it that I have to interact with a person who doesn't allow me to speak about myself ever?

So my need is to talk more about myself in this relationship.

So when we have the discomfort of anxiety, depression,

resentment, being confused, those are all times to really think about why?

Why am I feeling this?

And the need will come up.

We have grown to

try to fix

ourselves to accommodate others, right?

So we have a problem.

I can't have any need.

Why do I

have the TV so loud instead of, I really like the TV loud?

You know, it's like, should I accommodate this?

Some things in relationships should be accommodated, but there are other things that we don't have to compromise on.

And I think there are things about me that probably annoy other people.

And it's like, hey, I'm going to do it all by myself because I realize.

this is not your thing.

And I don't want you to feel like you have to do these things with me because they're important to me because I want you to have fun.

I want you to experience joy.

It's like me trying to watch sports.

I'm not a big sports person.

I'm the worst person to watch sports with because I'm telling you about this person's story.

Oh, I saw this guy.

He was the guy whose mom,

you know, it's like nothing to do with sports.

So you don't want to watch sports with me.

You want to figure out a way to watch sports with people you enjoy.

It's not going to be me.

Glennon would like to watch sports with you.

Yeah, you can watch with me.

I like to talk about people's sisters and their dogs and their, what they've overcome.

Not so much about goals.

Oh, I will pick a team based on someone's story.

Yes.

I'm like, that is the guy whose parents were in a car accident.

I want that team to win.

That's what is that team?

That's who I want to win.

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What are the reasons why we don't know what we need?

Like,

why do we not grow up with healthy boundaries?

Why, Nedra, why is everybody freaking figuring this out when they're 45 years old?

It just seems so basic.

Like, we should learn as human beings what we individually need and then learn how to communicate it.

So why is it a crisis in our midlife?

We are talked out of them.

I think we have boundaries when we are little people and we know exactly what we want, but it is not what the adults want for us.

The teacher doesn't want you to get up and jiggle your butt.

The teacher doesn't want you just walking to the pencil sharpener and doing all these things.

Your parents want you to be around a particular set of people.

Your parents want you to show up in a certain way.

They want, they will force you to wear a dress.

They will force you to love dance, you know, all of these things.

And so we start to force ourselves to do things we don't like.

We start to force ourselves with discomfort because we don't want to upset other people.

So we have been taught to please others.

We have been taught to go with whatever someone else is saying should be for us.

What I notice about women.

When we get ready to go out, someone sends a text and says, what are you wearing?

Yeah.

Right?

That's right.

Because we all want to dress alike right it's like oh if you're wearing pants then i'm gonna put on some pants so you wearing jeans i'm gonna put on some jeans too we don't want to stick out in any way so we conform we don't want to upset ruffle feathers be the unique person in the crowd.

We want there to be this melting pot and we want to present as, oh, I love everything.

I get along with everyone.

That is really hard because we're all unique.

It's not true.

and we're constantly fighting against that i have said to people who say things like i'm always late okay

you know how do you embrace that about yourself how do you build a life and start to let people maybe know that you know when i say five o'clock i really mean 5 15.

you know instead of feeling bad trying to force yourself like all of these things i'm a i'm a morning person i am shocked at the amount of people who will try to force themselves into being a morning person.

Stay up late if you want to.

That's what works for you.

That is your creative time.

For me, I can't really do anything but watch TV past eight o'clock.

I can't.

I can't create anything.

That doesn't work for me.

But how do you embrace who you are?

Because we live in a world where there's constantly this idea of you need to be this or you need to be that.

Why aren't you doing more baking?

Why aren't you doing more traveling?

And it's okay to not like to travel.

That's right.

It's okay to love a bag salad over cooking an elaborate meal.

I feel like what you talk about so beautifully, this fear of rejection or appearing mean, because

people will say all the time, I just don't know how to tell them no.

I don't know how to, but it's like, yes, you do.

You just said it.

Literally, like, so we tell ourselves we don't know how to say it, but really, we know exactly how to say it because we just said it to you.

We just don't want to we just don't want the reaction to it or we don't want other people to see us in a certain kind of way yeah

and so

we want to be like

yeah because it's

patient it's more than we want to get what we need yep because isn't it true nedra that it's the knowing of the need which i love what you said if you want to know what you need think about what makes you uncomfortable That's why we miss it too, because we're taught not to be uncomfortable.

So instead of interrogating discomfort, we just numb it.

Right.

So if we sit with our anxiety or our anger, we figure out then that might be pointing to a need.

Then we have to figure out how to communicate it.

And then we have to deal with the after.

The after is way worse because then people have a reaction.

So do you get that from people where they set a boundary, but then the hardest part is the keeping of the boundary and then dealing with other people's discomfort after?

What are the strategies for dealing with the after of setting a boundary?

This is the really tough part because we do know what to say in many cases.

We do know how to kind of figure out what we need.

I do think the challenge is controlling how the other person responds.

And we are trying to figure out the nicest way to say no,

the nicest way to say, I actually don't want to come home for Thanksgiving.

The nicest way to say all of these really hard things.

And I don't think it's our job to manage how people feel

about our boundaries.

That is really hard to get to a space where you stop the management because it's so much work just to create the boundary, just to speak it.

And we can't figure out how a person will respond or what they will do.

And unfortunately, there are people who get really upset with your boundaries.

They may give you the silent treatment.

They may even end the relationship.

But I would say in most cases, people want to be in relationships with you.

They might be upset for a little bit.

It hurt their feelings, but they will move on with that boundary.

And so the idea that we can protect people from that,

it's really not possible in all cases.

I think

what we can do is be better at.

letting people have boundaries with us.

That is the work that I try to do when, you know, my friends set boundaries with me.

I try not to question it.

I try to honor the boundary.

I will even try to get other people to do it.

At the top of COVID, I was on a girls trip and I had a friend say, no one bring up COVID.

And I said, hey, you're about to start.

She said, do not bring up COVID, right?

So I think it's one of those things that we have a lot of power right now to honor other people's boundaries.

And that lets them know it's okay to set boundaries with Nedra.

She actually listens to your boundaries.

Now, Nedra can set boundaries with me.

There is this two-way street of you have a boundary, I have a boundary.

Other people have boundaries.

I can think of so many boundaries people have set with me.

I have not ended the relationship because they asked me, hey, can you give me a quick call before you stop by?

Hey, actually, I don't want to go anymore.

Yeah, I haven't, oh, this person is not my friend anymore because they no longer wanted to go to lunch.

I just said, okay, you know, I had an outfit picked out.

It hurt my feelings a bit, but I moved on.

I actually feel cozier and safer and more secure in relationships and friendships where folks have set boundaries with me because I don't have to question

whether they are thinking something about me or feeling a way about me that they have not expressed.

Yeah, or they're doing something they don't want to do with you.

I'm thinking as you're saying this on the top of my head, the people that I feel like I have the biggest trust in are the people who have over and over been clear about their boundaries.

It's not the people I feel most hurt by.

I feel the most hurt by people who haven't expressed their boundaries.

And then I found out later, ooh, they

were holding a lot of things that they weren't saying.

Yeah, and I think it brings people closer.

The kids' parents that I respect the most who are friends with my kids are the parents who do the really awkward thing and like reach out to me and are like, do you have any guns in the house?

And are they locked up?

My kid can go to their house anytime, but that's scary to do.

I feel like we talk so much about boundaries with other people.

And we're going to get to that.

All of our questions from Pod Squatters are about other people.

But can you talk a little bit about what you mean about boundaries with self?

Those are the boundaries where, and I mentioned one earlier, I will leave work at five o'clock.

I've had enough to drink.

I need to not answer my phone when I am not in the spirit or available to speak to this person.

I need to go to bed at 10 o'clock so I can get up early in the morning refreshed.

It's all of those things that have to do with what we can control about our behavior.

There are so often times where we put things on other people.

Like this person is always calling me.

They can call your phone all day.

You have the ability to not answer.

You can block them.

You can tell them you don't like it.

You have a lot of power in this situation.

You may not be able to stop them from calling, but

I know I have a cell phone.

There is a way that you won't even see when they call.

Yeah.

What's one of your self-boundaries?

Because you said even a morning routine

is a self-boundary.

It's a way that you feel that honors yourself and brings you peace.

And it feels like that would be a good way for people to start if it's too scary to make boundaries with other people first.

What's one of your self-boundaries that helps bring you peace and honor?

I would say one of my favorite boundaries is

using the do not disturb on my phone.

I constantly think about the 90s and how when you left home, that was it.

It was like,

where are they?

Good old days.

Yes.

We're so reachable.

When my phone rings, sometimes I get so annoyed.

You would think that someone is like poking me when my phone rings.

And I have found that the best thing for me to do is to just not have the sound.

And when I want to return the call,

I return the call.

If I want to answer, I answer it.

I'm trying to remember, turn your phone on when your husband leaves the house because

he's like, you're unreachable.

And you're like, correct.

Correct.

That is the point.

So I'm trying to remember that.

Turn your, okay.

Turn your ringer on sometimes, but I really like using the phone when I want to use the phone.

I think that's a wonderful boundary for me.

Did you hear that, Pod Squatters?

Use the phone when you want to use the phone.

Okay.

The tyranny, the tyranny of phone.

It's carrying a little teeny dictator in your pocket all day that can tell you what to do every second.

It's not right.

I know we have to go to Pod Squatters' questions because they have so many for you, but can real quick, could you just tell me, Nedra, whether unconditional love is a real thing?

Because I kind of think it's bullshit.

If boundaries are a way of ensuring health, then how can there be such a thing as unconditional love?

That is a tough one because I think, particularly in adult relationships, they come with a lot of conditions.

I mean, even our dating phase is set up for conditions like, you know, do you like to travel?

Where would you like to live?

Oh, I don't like your parents.

You know, like all of these things are conditions.

So can we really say, like, I love this person unconditionally.

No, you love them if they like to travel, right?

And when they don't want to travel anymore, that is a new condition.

Thank you, Detra.

Thank you.

I don't know.

Maybe when I'm 100, I can really answer this question because my kids are not old enough yet.

I'm 90% sure I love them unconditionally.

I can't imagine a thing that they could do where I would be like, oh, that's it.

I haven't imagined that.

I haven't imagined that you have one.

Well, as a recovering addict.

Okay.

Okay.

So

I think, just having worked with lots of addicts and like in this world for a long time, I think that there is unconditional love for kids

often.

But I think that love is defined differently.

It's not unconditional access

or it's not unconditional relationship, even.

If my kids did horrific, horrible things and became like

Republicans.

Oh, my God.

I thought you were going to say murderers.

No, I could deal with that.

Oh, my God.

I feel like I could, I would always love them.

But we might have some serious conditions about access and relationship and all of that.

That's good.

Right.

But a feeling of deep, deep love and angst and yearning would always be there, no matter what.

Yes.

So unconditional love for kids in adult relationships, we start them with conditions.

This is so.

Yes.

So can we really be unconditional if, you know, a person has to meet certain criteria?

Yeah.

So good.

And they don't have to, people.

You do not have to love your boyfriend unconditionally.

You do not, no.

You should not, actually.

You should not.

That's a recipe for being treated like shit and calling it honorable.

You know, that's interesting.

You said if you're in a relationship with someone only because of the label it carries, sister, cousin, father, you don't have a relationship.

You have an obligation,

which I love.

So you might have obligations throughout your life, but don't tell yourself it's an unconditional love relationship.

Absolutely.

Okay, let's hear from our first pod squatter.

That's what women have, unconditional obligations.

That's what we have.

Yes.

All right, let's hear from Delaney.

Like Abby, I've always been a people pleaser, and I'm now working through that.

The roadblock I keep running into is how do you exit friendships and situations where you don't want to say something too mean, but you also need to establish that this only worked for the people-pleasing version of you.

So please let me know and thank you for all that you guys do.

Oh, and my name is Delaney.

I didn't even say that.

I think that we need to try to leave relationships in the most drama-free way possible.

We don't want to leave them.

and let people know everything that we think about them because it's not helpful and it's completely biased.

This relationship has changed for you, but clearly this person is in other relationships where who they are is working, right?

Do they need to know, you know, I no longer want to be friends with you because X, Y, and Z.

I don't think people always need to know that.

I think there are tons of ways to leave relationships.

We've been leaving relationships since the beginning of time.

I don't have any friends from elementary school, middle school, yeah.

You know, how did we leave those relationships?

They just sort of fizzle out.

They just decrease over time.

There wasn't a conversation where I said to my eighth grade best friend, hey, we're not going to be best friends anymore because we're going to different schools.

It just sort of happens that way.

So how do we allow things to fizzle out without feeling like we have to keep this constant connection with people?

That's how most friendships end.

And I think that's a beautiful ending because here's the thing, we change and we might want to to go back to this relationship.

But if we told people, you're a horrible person, I never really liked your spaghetti, your boyfriend sucks, all of these terrible things.

I don't think you're leaving the door open there.

That's right.

And sometimes we can step away and we may need to get back in there at some point.

With our friendships, we are so vulnerable.

We give so much.

If something happens to their parents or your parents, can you imagine not being able to support a person because you've shared all of these terrible things about them?

You know, maybe we need to leave with our integrity intact and also their confidence.

We don't have to say all of these terrible things to end a relationship.

We can just slowly walk away, you know, cut back a little bit on communication and still, you know, hey, happy birthday if that's what you want to do.

But there doesn't need to be this formal breakup of friendships all the time.

Sometimes you do need a formal breakup, but I would say in most cases, you do not.

I love that.

In the recovery community, like I'm, I'm a recovering alcoholic and

I had a lot of really strong friendships when I was in the active phase of my addiction.

And I don't have a lot of those friendships anymore.

And I didn't have like a, hey, we're no longer friends.

I do think that in the recovery world, you do need to build your new life.

And that sometimes takes time.

And so having that door that's always available to maybe include them in your sober life.

It's gentle.

I like that approach.

We don't hear about that a lot.

It's always so dramatic these days.

Like you have to say the things, but you're so right, Nigel.

Like, it's just our perspective on them.

Like, we do so much, I have to tell the truth, but it's always just our truth.

It's not the truth.

Yeah.

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So this question is from Alex.

Hi, my name is Alex.

I was calling with a question about parents and I guess people in general and the whole idea of keeping score.

So for some context, I have lived lived at home in my parents' basement, which they have really lovingly finished for me for the past year while I did my master's degree in special education and taught full time.

And I am so privileged and it was really wonderful.

But now as I'm coming out of that year, I am noticing, and this has been happening kind of my whole life, anytime I set a boundary or communicate differing views, the scorecard is brought up.

The, oh, we've been over backwards for you.

And I'm just wondering if you have any advice for where to begin dealing with it, because I love my parents more than anything, but also I'm my own separate human.

So this woman lived in her parents' basement.

They did a ton for her.

She's living with them, trying to set boundaries.

When she tries to set a boundary, they like basically present back to her how much they've done for her as if she is not.

entitled because of that exchange to have a boundary.

I think that's a beautiful thing to say.

All of the stuff you just said, I realize that you do a lot for me.

I greatly appreciate it.

However, when you help, it seems like it comes with some sort of strings attached.

I have to be hyper-thankful.

I can't have an issue with anything else.

And that's very hurtful because I do appreciate it, but I also want to be able to have boundaries in this relationship.

And, Ninja, that could work, or

it could be that those parents are like,

but the thing is, you're in my basement.

So, I mean, there are exchanges where it's like, maybe

you are trading some freedom.

You're actually on other people's bounds.

Yeah.

Trying to make boundaries tricky.

Yeah, I think about this sometimes, especially with, you know, folks who are parenting adult children and they are are saying, oh my gosh, they need so much.

And I wonder how comfortable are you making it for this person to be in a space you don't want them to be in?

How comfortable are you being a child with your parents to the point that they don't even consider you an adult?

You know, sometimes with adult parents, when you're ready to be treated like an adult, you have to engage in full adulthood and you really have to detach so they don't have anything to hang over your head.

It's wonderful when you have parents who help you and they don't mention it.

But in many cases, people do feel like if I'm helping you, you know, there are some contractual agreements.

I have some say-so.

You may, you know, need to do these things.

And I can say to you, remember that time I helped you?

Things do happen as a result of receiving help from your parents.

Yeah.

I think this is going to be an ongoing conversation of negotiation because especially with the economy now, I mean, I just read that 30% of all Gen Zers are living with their parents.

It might have to be a conversation that's bigger.

It's almost like I'm not living with my parents.

We have communal living now,

right?

But if you have communal living, that means all kinds of different contribution.

So a boundary conversation might go both ways in that situation.

Like if you're coming to us with your boundaries, you also better be coming to us with your paycheck sort of situation.

Yeah.

Or even, you know, I'll cook a few days where instead of having a housekeeper, hey, I will clean the house on Saturdays.

Perhaps giving a little bit will help them see you as like this autonomous person or even as someone who lives in the home and not just like their kid that they're taking care of.

Okay, let's hear from Deanna.

My name's Deanna.

About a year ago, I moved out of my apartment from my parents' house.

I'm in my own place, my own city.

I'm 24 with a job, and it's my first time really being on my own.

The first couple of relationships I experienced throughout my teens and early 20s were really, really difficult, toxic relationships.

They were not good for me.

So as soon as I moved to this new apartment a year ago, I met my neighbor.

He's a really nice guy.

And now here we are 12 months later.

We've been dating for about seven months now.

It's the healthiest relationship I have ever been in.

And it's just, it's so easy and effortless and we have so much fun together.

However, there's definitely been some issues when it comes to boundaries as we are neighbors and our front doors are literally three feet apart from each other.

I was wondering if you guys had any tips on boundaries in a relationship like this.

When it's your first healthy and enjoyable and really, really fun relationship in a long time, it's hard to kind of make the time and space for the things that are important to you individually and and uh just making sure you're paying attention to yourself taking care of yourself just as much as you would if you weren't in that relationship

so good deanna i hear a lot of self-boundaries yeah i hear a lot of i'm going to the movies exactly i am going to grab something to eat and not necessarily inviting your boyfriend to be a part of those things and when he attaches himself to those experiences, being clear that you are trying to carve out some alone time

and offering, hey, you know, I'm going to the movies today by myself, but maybe on Saturday we can do this thing.

So it's not just I'm spending all of the time by myself.

We can do some things together and I want to do things separately.

In the beginning of relationships, oh gosh, I'm so excited that the honeymoon phase does does not last because it's impossible.

The amount of energy

you have in the beginning of relationships, it's like, oh, I don't, I didn't sleep.

I was talking on it.

It's just, you know, you want to be with this person all the time.

And at some point, there's this click of, oh, I have friends.

Oh, my gosh, remember I used to be on the soccer team?

Yes.

It's like, where was I?

You were falling, you know, and, and once you get to that space of recognizing like, okay, whoa, back to self, back to self, you know, there is this slowly moving back to that and acknowledge it.

We have just been spending so much time together that I actually forgot that.

I really like to bowl.

Like, I want to go bowling just by myself.

It's my thing.

I want to get back to that.

Just letting that new partner know that, wow, this has been amazing.

Let's keep it up.

And also, I need some time to myself.

So good.

And that's sexy.

Having a self is sexy.

That is the sexiest thing, Deanna.

Like, it's like, if you're going to say, I love you, there has to be an I and there has to be a you.

Right.

It's like in the beginning, there's no I or you, which is means it's not even love.

It's being on drugs.

It's being on drugs.

It's so wild.

Right.

It's so wild.

The I and the you are the real thing.

I was walking this morning by myself and I had this like grateful moment that I was alone, which is a big deal for me because I'm a people person big time.

And so it's taken me a long time to get comfortable by being by myself.

Just this year, I've been like.

consciously making choices to do things on my own.

The codependency that we had for so long, me just making sure you're okay, doing everything together.

But today on my walk, I was like, look at you.

You're walking by yourself and happy about it.

Well, and Nendra, you would have been so proud of us.

A year ago, we stood on the beach and argued because I wanted to walk on the beach and Abby wanted to sit on the beach.

So we had a very long argument about whether we would walk or we would sit.

And it took us a half an hour to figure out, oh, I can walk and she can sit.

Yes.

Wow.

But don't you think that's such a cultural disservice, this idea that if we loved people enough, we would want to do all the things with them.

This idea that if you haven't found someone you want to be with all the time, then you haven't found the right person.

That's not the perfect partner.

That's right.

Nedra, can you speak for just a moment on the difference between enmeshment and attachment?

Because that is not actually a signal of your healthiest connection you can have with someone.

Yeah, enmeshment is giving up of self.

So, if you are enmeshed and you are doing things that you don't actually enjoy, it's not really fulfilling.

You're doing it for this other person, and to some extent, there are some things that you will do in a relationship for the other person, but what are you doing for yourself?

What things do you enjoy by yourself, maybe with friends outside of the relationship, with family members?

We do think that, oh my gosh, I want to be around this person all the time.

This is love,

But there are tons of people.

I think about, you know, many grandparents who stay married, sleeping in separate rooms.

You know, it's like, this is the only way we can be together because I can't take that snoring or, you know, whatever that is.

It's like, we're still together because we're not sleeping in the same room.

You know, we always thought like, oh, this is terrible.

Maybe it's not.

Maybe it's not terrible.

Not looking so terrible now, folks.

Yeah, it's like maybe we have different sleep habits.

Isn't it a healthy thing to be able to sleep at night?

So if that means that, hey, I can still be in this relationship, but I just need to go down the hall at nighttime.

Hey, what is the problem there?

We curate the rules for our relationships.

And sometimes we are looking at other couples.

We're looking at our parents and people on TV.

Hollywood, yeah.

Yeah.

And we're saying, this is what a relationship is supposed to be like.

It's like, that's what that relationship is supposed to be like.

You have to figure out what works for you.

For you, Abby, you've discovered you like watching movies really loud by yourself.

That's your thing.

You know, you want to do that with someone who enjoys it.

And guess who it is?

It's you.

Me.

It's you.

Me.

I get to do it with me.

Yeah.

Can you imagine doing that with Glennon and she's complaining?

You get to have it on full blast and hear all of the sound effects on your action movie.

I've gotten so good at reading movies because I just turned the captions off so the volume could be lower.

Well, every time I'm locked in the closet, hiding from the, I'm going to call Medra from the closet.

Closet to closet communication.

The last question is from Kathleen with whom I am obsessed.

Okay.

My name is Kathleen and here's my situation.

The other night, Saturday, I decide I'm I'm super sleepy and I'm going to go to bed.

And I tell my husband, and he's very angry.

And then he sort of does that passive aggressive, I'm not going to pay attention to you, whatever, till the next morning.

And the next morning, I ask why he was still angry.

And he says, it's so aggravating.

It's like you're on your own schedule.

And I kind of hesitate and don't respond and go about life.

But it's been eating at me.

And I have to think, what the fuck does that mean?

Of course I'm on my own schedule.

I'm a grown-up.

My kids are grown up.

Whose schedule should I be on, if not my own schedule?

So there's my thoughts.

Talk amongst yourselves.

Mandra, Kathleen wants to know what the fuck does that mean?

Well, time is a huge boundary area, and it's one of the big things that we can control.

And you do get to decide how you want to spend your time.

At nighttime, you may not want to go watch TV.

i think what has happened here is

her husband is under the impression that he controls the time that they spend together so there has to be some shifting in the relationship of boundaries there has to be some communication all of those things she just said my kids are out of the house i am a grown-up when i am ready to go to bed i will go to bed at that time i will go read a book whatever i want to do is what i will be doing.

So I think that needs to be made clear.

We know that, but does he know that?

It sounds like it was a shock and a surprise.

It sounds like it was a shift from the normal routine.

So there needs to be this consistency in you doing what you want to do with your time, particularly if the kids are out of the house and things have gone a certain way until this point.

And Ninja, if somebody comes back with passive aggressive, because bless all of our hearts, that's all we've learned.

Nobody taught us how to be assertive.

We just, when we're pissed, we just say something shitty.

And then like, so, so when

you say so when our friend Kathleen, when her husband is doing the passive aggressive thing and is saying, oh, it's like you have your own schedule.

How do we respond to passive aggressiveness in a way that actually helps us get to the root of something as opposed to just playing a ping pong game of passive aggressiveness?

Name it.

You know, saying to someone, you are being passive aggressive.

This morning, you didn't talk to me for an hour.

And then when you said something, it was rather mean.

I take my language back to kindergarten.

It's very simple.

That was mean.

I don't like that.

That hurt my feelings.

I use those statements a lot.

I want people to know I didn't like that.

And so you have to be able to communicate that in a very simple way and let him know that this behavior is not okay when you're upset with me i would prefer it if you had a conversation around what's bothering you and let's think about some compassion here and a little bit of empathy your husband is also

in a space where the kids are outside of the house.

I don't know the level of involvement there, but that can be a difficult transition sometimes.

And so perhaps he is looking forward to spending time with you.

I'm sensing a bit of disappointment.

I missed you, you know, is what I'm hearing.

And I feel hurt that you didn't want to be with me in that time.

So how do you all have a conversation about what you're really feeling and get all of this tough guy stuff out of there?

Like all of this tough stuff that we do instead of really saying like, that hurt me.

I'm afraid, I'm disappointing.

There's a lot of changes happening and you are the only consistent thing because that's what I'm hearing from that scenario.

Nedra, can you give us a little script at ways in which setting boundaries can be done easily?

For me, it would be good to have like in my back pocket as we end this conversation today to be able to say, okay, I can maybe, I can maybe start there.

Something like as the most simple way to set a boundary.

I think of a few starter phrases like I need or I want

or I expect

or no.

And just simple sentences.

I think sometimes we really complicate it because not only are we stating the boundary, we're trying to get the other person to agree with it.

And so we'll say, you know, a whole bunch of stuff.

I need you to sit with me because the other day I sat with you.

And this is really important to me because every time I sit down, I think about you.

And it's like, what are you saying?

So if we can keep it simple, and if there's a conversation to be had, perhaps going to that conversation, but lots of boundaries are just statements.

You know, when I think of, I need you to watch the kids while I'm cooking dinner.

That's just a statement.

There's no conversation to be had.

That's a sentence.

When you're upset with me, I'd like you to talk about that instead of treating me as if you're upset.

That's a sentence.

So I think sometimes we're trying to think of these talking points.

And it's not necessarily required.

You talked about arguing on the beach for 30 minutes.

And one of the things that I try to teach couples is argue, but don't do it for a long period of time.

Because if you're doing it for 30 minutes, an hour, you're just repeating yourself.

That's right.

You're not really saying

anything new.

Nothing is being discovered.

I know that.

Yeah.

But

we had a new awakening after four hours.

Thank God we got to that 43rd minute where we really got to the crux of it.

Yeah, it's really like my point, my point, my point, my point again, my point, point, point.

You know, you're just going and it's like, are you going to say something different?

Do you have a new example?

It's, it's really not new stuff.

You're really just trying to get this person like, agree with me.

This was good.

I said it differently.

And it's like,

you're saying the same thing.

This really could have been five minutes.

You know, it's so good.

so true what are we spending time on here yeah

everything that you teach is

it starts with the foundation

of believing that you are worthy of having it because i think the reason why i do the 40 minute presentation

like i'm a lawyer okay like i'm preparing a case is because Somewhere I believe I need to have a case prepared because I have to prove that I'm worthy of having needs.

So what if we just all started with the actual definition of being a human being, which is that we will all have needs.

So everyone is worthy of having needs.

Everyone is needy.

Yes.

It's so funny because people say, I am needy.

I'm like, me too.

What do you need?

Yes.

We're all needy.

We all need stuff.

Some of us.

are more open to expressing those needs and that's how you get that label of being needy but i have a lot of needs sometimes you know we'll diminish our needs because we don't want to present as needy needy, but I think 100% of humans are needy.

We have all sorts of preferences.

Now, whether we communicate those or not,

but we have preferences in there.

And it's just a part of being human to have these needs.

So, how do we get better at expressing them?

I remember when I stopped eating pork and I would be so afraid to tell people I didn't, I'm in the South, right?

So, I would be so, they put pork in everything.

Oh my gosh, I just every single thing.

I'm from Detroit.

So when I moved here, I was like, oh, wow, I really have to ask, is there pork in that cornbread?

You know,

is it pork in that lemonade?

You know, everything is like pork infused, bacon, bacon.

Yeah.

So how do you start to express to people, like, is there an option where I don't get pork in this meal?

Can this be prepared that way?

So many times I used to just pick it off.

Like, I don't know.

I don't want to inconvenience them.

I'll just eat around it.

But once people start to say, yeah, yeah, they'll just take it off.

It's like, oh, wait, you'll listen to me?

Wonderful.

Yeah.

Let's end with that.

Yes.

That is the best metaphor I could imagine.

We're out here living our lives just picking pork out of stuff.

That's what we can have.

A life that isn't fat.

That is pork-free if we just effing ask.

Yes.

And we say, I am needy.

Yes.

Because people who pretend they're not needy are bitter people.

That's right.

Yes.

I loved this conversation.

Yeah, of course you did because you had to watch a freaking TV.

The repercussions of this conversation, Nedra, are many.

So

we appreciate you.

Thank you for teaching people how to have healthy relationships through boundaries.

It's really beautiful work you're doing.

And you're welcome.

For the rest of you, figure out who you're in a relationship with this week that only allows your people-pleasing self.

That sentence got to me.

It's an interesting question.

And also start your sentences with, I need, I want, I expect, I prefer, the end.

And we'll see you next week.

Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.