Sara Bareilles: How to Remember Yourself (Best Of)

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Speaker 2 There she is.

Speaker 2 Oh my gosh. Hello.

Speaker 3 It's been so long that we've wanted this moment. Yes.
Oh my God.

Speaker 4 I have no idea. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 3 Oh my God. Let's just start right now.

Speaker 4 Let's do it. Let's jump in.

Speaker 3 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. This is a big emotional day for us, for sister and Abby and I, because today we have Sarah Borellis

Speaker 3 on our podcast. And Sarah, I want to tell you a quick story that Abby and I just decided we would tell.

Speaker 6 We weren't going to tell the story.

Speaker 3 But when Abby and I first got together,

Speaker 3 after a little while, I actually had to sit down with Abby. And by the way, I was just learning like how to be in a

Speaker 5 relationship

Speaker 7 for the first time.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 3 I didn't know how to do it. And so I sat down with her and said, here's the deal.
I'm scared. I need you to stop talking about Sarah Borrelles.

Speaker 3 Sarah, Sarah, it was a serious talk. I was like, I feel like

Speaker 3 you get so emotional. I don't know what's going on with your feelings about Sarah Borrelles, but I'm uncomfortable with it.
This was a dead serious.

Speaker 3 I know people are allowed to have their celebrity crushes, but we could meet her. And I don't want to deal with what's going to happen.
I just, why do you start crying every time you talk about her?

Speaker 3 It makes me uncomfortable. And so this is the conversation conversation that we had.

Speaker 8 Sarah, I've been to your shows and I've been a huge fan of yours for a long time. And

Speaker 8 what Glennon didn't understand at that point is

Speaker 8 in the LGBTQ community, you're a hero for us.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 8 I'm actually probably going to get emotional talking about it.

Speaker 2 See?

Speaker 8 No, it's because people don't remember what it was like before 2015 2015 and before marriage equality happened. And you released an album that had these songs on it, Brave and I Choose You.

Speaker 8 And you made this video

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 8 two couples getting proposal video.

Speaker 8 And the thing about what you,

Speaker 8 with these songs specifically for me and how they impacted my life, is that it

Speaker 8 didn't just normalize like gay culture and make people tolerate us it was a celebration of us and i think

Speaker 8 i hadn't seen that you know i hadn't from a straight person i hadn't especially from a straight person i think that that's one of the things that um i admire so much about you is that you're able to talk about the problems that

Speaker 8 your friend specifically that you wrote Brave for,

Speaker 8 the anthem that so many of us gay folks listen to and celebrate in ourselves. I think that Glennon at the time didn't realize how important you are to the gay community.
And

Speaker 3 well, I just arrived on the scene.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 8 I had to give her the information that she needed. You are an incredible artist and you have not just touched my life, but all of our gay lives.

Speaker 8 And by the way, all of the straight people out there who might not have known that this is something that can be celebrated. So I thank you.
Welcome to our show.

Speaker 3 And Sarah Borellis is a Tony Award and Emmy Award-nominated actor and Grammy Award-winning singer and songwriter.

Speaker 3 On Broadway, Sarah composed music and lyrics for Waitress, in which she was also the lead. Sarah also produced original music and executive produced the musical drama series Little Voice.

Speaker 3 She plays Don Solano on the Emmy-nominated musical comedy series Girls 5 Eva and stars as the baker's wife in the Broadway revival into the woods.

Speaker 6 Welcome, Sarah.

Speaker 4 This is the greatest already.

Speaker 4 I feel so, I'm such a massive fan of the show and of the work and your activism and your advocacy. And I'm so excited to make this connection.
You've made, you have all made a huge impact on my life.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 mutual admiration society here. I'm just really happy to be here.

Speaker 3 And Sarah, this is a good idea.

Speaker 7 Do you have a crush on any of us, Sarah?

Speaker 2 At least you probably get out of out of the way.

Speaker 2 All three of us.

Speaker 2 All three of us.

Speaker 3 Oh my God. Most of the sentences that you say make my little sensitive heart

Speaker 3 just

Speaker 3 feel so much less alone and so seen. This one, this something you said recently.

Speaker 3 I just felt like the idea of having to be alive. for the rest of my life was an impossible thing to hold.
How do you possibly get through so many days in a life?

Speaker 3 Sarah, thank you for that.

Speaker 3 What is so freaking hard about being alive?

Speaker 2 Oh my God, all of the things, all of the things.

Speaker 4 And I sit in an extraordinarily privileged position. I have an awesome life from, you know, objectively speaking.

Speaker 4 I think as a sensitive person,

Speaker 4 it's chaos. Yes.
It's the fact that we have to like learn how to hold the truth of what is, which is that it's all chaos and it will be forever until we go away.

Speaker 4 And who the fuck knows what happens then? So, like, what are, where are we supposed to just sit back and relax? And I, I'm just, I've never been a person who I've had to come to terms with.

Speaker 4 I think I'm still trying to come to terms with, I'm just not that lighthearted a person. I'm just not.
I never really have been.

Speaker 4 I always like to think of myself as being that way, but I'm, I might just not be that lighthearted.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 Easy breezy is not where what you're going to ever land on.

Speaker 2 No.

Speaker 3 And doesn't it confuse you? I know I've talked about this so much, but I used to sit with therapists and they'd, you know, tell me I was anxious.

Speaker 3 And I'd be like, are you sure or are you just not paying attention?

Speaker 4 Are you sure I have the problem?

Speaker 3 Or are you just not concentrating?

Speaker 4 That's true.

Speaker 4 I cosign on that. It just seems like there are too many things to be worried about at all times to possibly sit back and kick your feet up and like

Speaker 2 whatever.

Speaker 4 I just can't. I can't unplug from it.

Speaker 4 I'm trying. I'm working on it, making peace with the fact that if I can at least stop punishing myself for being someone who is a little bit oriented towards the worrisome.

Speaker 4 But I've, I've learned in my, at least as a, as a songwriter, I get to be a conduit for that. I get to be the vessel that holds all of that stuff and try to like move it through.

Speaker 4 And if it can offer comfort or connection for someone else, I feel less alone. You know, I, like what you were saying, Abby, is that.

Speaker 4 I really reap the rewards and the benefits of the connection that comes with what happens when I share how vulnerable and scared and fucked up I feel all the time. People are like, oh, yeah, me too.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, great. We're all just totally winging it here.
No one has any answers and we're all pretending we do. If at any moment we're coming across as well adjusted, it's all fake.

Speaker 7 Clin and I really resonated with your experience of being at UCLA for five years on account of you spent a year abroad, but it was too

Speaker 7 claustrophobic to approach the people to get your credits for that year abroad. So you just actually went to school for another year when you got back.

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 4 100%.

Speaker 4 I was too nervous to call the Centro Studi where I went to school in Bologna. I didn't go to Italy and just like

Speaker 4 screw around for a year. I went to classes.
I took exams.

Speaker 4 I did all the things that students have to do. And I got back and they're like, oh, you have to get this information from

Speaker 4 the study center in order to get your credits transferred. And I was like, no, I can't.
I can't possibly call. I can't do that.
So I just went to UCLA for an extra year.

Speaker 8 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Can we just talk about that for a second? Cause I just, this is a thing. So what is this, Sarah? Is it social anxiety?

Speaker 3 What is this thing that makes it so hard for us to just like talk directly to a person we don't know?

Speaker 4 I think it's a little bit of social anxiety. Like I won't even know the questions to ask.
Like, I won't, like, I'll, I think there's something that feels,

Speaker 4 I think I'll feel stupid. I think I'm a really, I'm a really afraid of feeling stupid in front of someone.

Speaker 4 I feel stupid all the time, but I, but I'm really afraid of showing someone that I feel stupid. Does that make sense? I don't know.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Totally makes sense. I hate feeling stupid.

Speaker 3 So you're saying, I need something from you that I don't know what I need. And that moment of I need something from you

Speaker 3 is totally vulnerable. And you'd rather just go to school for another year than deal with that vulnerability.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 4 All my friends graduated.

Speaker 9 I was alone.

Speaker 4 It was a deep, it's a deep choice. It's a deep choice.
But I'm thinking about like even now as an adult, I'm 42 years old.

Speaker 4 And I'm doing a little bit of renovations on this, on a, on a music, like a little apartment I'm turning into a music studio. So I have a work space.
And

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 talk to the contractor and there's like a thing that happens where I just glaze over, where I just feel, I'm just like flooded with like, there's so many things I don't even know or understand about this.

Speaker 4 And it's not that it's rocket science. I just glaze over and I'm trying to appear like I'm nodding and I'm like paying attention.

Speaker 4 I'm like, uh-huh. And all I want him to do is leave.
All I want him to do is stop so I can be alone with the fact that I don't understand anything that just happened. And what am I going to do now?

Speaker 4 Because I didn't take the time to understand anything that just happened. So then I don't call him back.
And then I start over and I have another interview with another contractor.

Speaker 4 So I think I'll try again. You know what I mean? Like it's that hiding.
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Every time I ask someone for directions, I immediately go, where do I go? And then I put on my face of, do I look like I'm understanding?

Speaker 3 And then I just go home. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 Or every time anyone tries to explain anything to me, I'm only thinking, do I look like a person who looks like they're concentrating?

Speaker 2 It's not loud. It's not good.

Speaker 8 All right. So years ago, you made the move from LA to Broadway and you tweeted about the decision.
And your tweet reads like this.

Speaker 10 I love Glennon Doyle. And she says, we can do hard things.
And so here we are.

Speaker 8 Do the hard things. So when you're down, how do you know what kind of change you actually need? Whether you need to move to New York or break up with your partner?

Speaker 8 How do we know when we just need change or when we need help?

Speaker 4 Well, I think there's an argument that help is change.

Speaker 4 I think as someone who is really learning

Speaker 4 to ask for help, I'm really not very good at about it. I have tended to be an insulated person.

Speaker 4 You know, I was a really scrappy young artist, faced a lot of challenges coming up as a young woman, getting told no, dealing with all kinds of body image issues, and

Speaker 4 what happens when you're in a public-facing position. Um,

Speaker 4 and I think

Speaker 4 I have a real, I'll just, I'll do it myself attitude. So, I think change and help in my little world, my little universe, might be synonymous.
And

Speaker 4 I always think

Speaker 4 change is good. I mean, I don't like it.
I can't say that I'm like, oh, I love it when things change, but I actually think that's where we grow.

Speaker 4 It's not healthy to believe there's a plateau anywhere in your future, that anything's going to just finally settle down into fill in the blank. That is not what we're here for.

Speaker 4 It's not what life does. We've been taught that over and over again.

Speaker 4 So I think that the more we can lean into the fact that it is all fluid, you know, my God, what have we learned from the last few years? Just like, you think you know what anything looks like?

Speaker 2 No. No.

Speaker 10 The answer is no.

Speaker 3 That sounds like one of your survival strategies. Is it just resisting the idea that there will ever be any solid ground?

Speaker 4 Well, it definitely feels like, I think on a good day, it's something that I can find comfort in.

Speaker 4 I mean, I'm someone who started meditating a handful of years ago, and that's such a tenant of, it's just like groundlessness. Get comfy with the fact that everything you love, you lose.

Speaker 4 That's just what it is. We are, it's sand in our hands.
We just, we can't hold any of this.

Speaker 4 So, you know, that's like, what, what other kind of horrifying, terrifying thought can you hold in your mind?

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 3 I just was very excited because I was like, if there was a crush, it's over now because my wife is not, is not going to subscribe to that idea.

Speaker 2 She's like, I will hold on. to everything.
Yes.

Speaker 2 I'm sweating.

Speaker 7 I have a question about the changes help and the help is change. Because you made me think of something I haven't thought about before.

Speaker 7 You said lots of times when these sisters of anxiety and depression come to you,

Speaker 7 that you try to break up with your partner.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 7 And that you usually do. And that most recently in the pandemic, you have this beautiful partner, Joe, and you tried to break up with him.
Oh, yeah. And he said,

Speaker 7 relax, go visit with your friends, and then come back.

Speaker 7 So,

Speaker 7 that instinct to change, how do you know when that change is help or when that change is a symptom of the problem?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 good.

Speaker 3 I wonder that one.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 I'm in that question.

Speaker 4 I mean, I continue to be in that question of, now, you were talking about didn't know how to be a partner. That is, this is a big place for Sarah to learn how to like

Speaker 10 grow up a little bit.

Speaker 4 I'm someone who has had long partnerships in my life and loving partnerships.

Speaker 4 I almost wouldn't call them quite partnerships. Like I've had long relationships, and this is my first partnership, which is a different,

Speaker 4 it's a different entity. It's a different organism.

Speaker 4 And I think not to any of my previous,

Speaker 4 you know, boyfriend's

Speaker 4 discredit. I just don't think I was like

Speaker 4 available to it. I just wasn't available.
I was so protected and guarded. And Joe, for many reasons, I think because of where I was at in my life and just the alchemy of he and I,

Speaker 4 I mean, I tried to break up with him.

Speaker 4 I've tried to break up with him.

Speaker 4 And the first time,

Speaker 4 the first time, I just, I was like, the lights went out. That's just, that's what it felt like to me.
I was like, I really, really liked you. And now I don't.

Speaker 4 And that it just, it went away and I don't like you anymore. And the lights went out.
And that's how it feels. And that's what's true.

Speaker 4 And I remember we were on a street corner and he was like passionate about it. And it was the first time I heard him really advocate for himself.
And I thought it was so like sexy.

Speaker 4 And it was like a little moment for us to really see each other. But he's like, if the lights go out, you go into the fucking basement and you check the fuse box.
And it was like,

Speaker 2 oh,

Speaker 4 okay. And he's like, if we're not, you know, compatible or whatever, that's fine.
But I'm not falling for this bullshit of like, I don't know. I just, it's gone.
The feeling's gone. It was just a very

Speaker 4 immature like coping that I had of like scared,

Speaker 4 separate. I feel scared, separate.
And so that is a thing that comes up for me over and over again. And I'm really trying to work through it.
And, you know, Joe is my partner of choice at this moment.

Speaker 4 And neither he nor I know if we live off into the sunset together or not. But it's a choice to be like, okay, let's really not get, let's not do magical thinking about it.

Speaker 4 This is, you know what I mean? Like, that's one of the things I work with with my therapist because I'm someone who likes a little magical thinking.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But it's not always serving the greater good in my life.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 4 Did I answer a question?

Speaker 2 I have no idea. Yes,

Speaker 7 it's beautiful and perfect because it's in both. It is help and it is a symptom and all of those things relate to each other.

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Speaker 7 You say that it's about being immature, but you're doing that for a reason. It could be actually a really wise response to

Speaker 7 provoke, to test the sturdiness of that connection. I mean, if you say the lights are off and he's like,

Speaker 7 absolutely fucking not, you're like, oh, that's

Speaker 3 sexy. That's sexy.

Speaker 7 I did that all the time. My first marriage, I was abandoned.
I tried to break up with my current husband 150 times.

Speaker 7 And it was about,

Speaker 7 if I push, are you going to fall? If I push, are you going to run?

Speaker 7 Whatever we're trying to get from that is interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 4 Well, and I think as independent women, there's a certain layer of like self-protection that's happening, but also it's like,

Speaker 4 I think it's a little bit of like

Speaker 4 an underlying belief that maybe I'm not okay. Like the wiser thing is to be like, look, you can come or go.
I am fine. I'm here.

Speaker 10 I'm

Speaker 4 fine. And so let me just stay and see what this is and really talk about

Speaker 4 where do we miss each other? Where do we disconnect? Why do we disconnect? And now I find that really fascinating, like to be in a relationship that has a lot of juice. And it's not easy all the time.

Speaker 4 We laugh a ton. We also have friction,

Speaker 4 which I have always equated to being like an indication of something's wrong, if there's any conflict. But it's actually so lovely to be able to be like, that really hurt me when you did that.

Speaker 4 Why did you do that? And vice versa. So it's, well, we're learning.
We're like little baby birds. I'm a little baby bird in this sense.
I'm like, look at me. I'm in a relationship.

Speaker 2 I'm going to try not to fly away. Treat me.

Speaker 3 I'm doing it.

Speaker 3 That's so beautiful.

Speaker 7 You're such a baby bird. Yo, I wanted to thank you on behalf of myself and a lot of little baby birds who have recently started meds for anxiety and depression.

Speaker 7 And I just to thank you for the way that you put that out in the world.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 7 it was beautiful. And you were hesitant to go on them at first.
So what was the breaking point for you?

Speaker 7 And what has that journey been like for you since?

Speaker 2 Ooh,

Speaker 4 um,

Speaker 4 yeah.

Speaker 4 So I started having anxious episodes in my early 20s. The first time I remember having disassociation, I was probably in my

Speaker 4 in my fifth year of college.

Speaker 2 We remember

Speaker 2 the five.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Damn you, Italy.

Speaker 2 My solo year at UCLA.

Speaker 3 Can you tell us what does dissociative mean? Just for I know. Oh, yeah.
Unfortunately, but for anyone who's not an anxious bunny bird, can you explain?

Speaker 4 So, the way I describe it is that

Speaker 4 there's,

Speaker 4 it's a little bit like you leave your body and you are your observer and you kind of can't. I remember trying to explain it to my mom.
I was like, I can't stop being

Speaker 4 more aware of the fact that I'm standing here in this kitchen talking to you than just having the conversation. I couldn't stay in my body and stay in the experience or stay in the room.

Speaker 4 I was just watching myself have this experience of life.

Speaker 4 And it was terrifying. And I thought I was going crazy.
I thought I was developing schizophrenia. I didn't know, I didn't know what any of it meant, but I was terrified.

Speaker 4 And I started going to therapy, and I had a terrible therapist, but

Speaker 4 the act of verbalizing what was going on inside me was

Speaker 4 part of what was healing. I just started saying it unapologetically and she fell asleep or whatever the fuck she did.

Speaker 2 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 And she was not anxious enough.

Speaker 4 Not anxious enough. Anyway, this is a long-winded tangent.
I started having these anxious episodes very early and I managed them through therapy, through meditation, through exercise. It was

Speaker 4 deeply uncomfortable and manageable.

Speaker 4 And I just sort of

Speaker 4 chalked it up to being like, this is just who I am. And I'm going to have these really hard times.
And as I got older and wiser to a certain extent.

Speaker 4 Sometimes they were easier. Sometimes they went on way too long.
I mean, when I look back now, I'm like, I just wish I would have tried this as an an option.

Speaker 4 But the breaking point for me was in the lockdown and the pandemic, the claustrophobia and this

Speaker 4 just like the rattling of

Speaker 4 dread was

Speaker 4 so loud and oppressive. And I really wanted to leave Joe.
I really wanted to, I don't even know what. I don't even know what I would fill in the, I want to leave you and fill in the blank.

Speaker 4 I have, I don't have an answer for that. I was was just terrified all the time.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 he was very generous for a lot of it. And we got to a point where he's like,

Speaker 4 I can't do this. Like, I can't like just,

Speaker 4 oh, it's going to make me emotional.

Speaker 4 He's like, I can't keep being your punching bag because I would like,

Speaker 4 I would just tell him. I would vomit all of these fears on him.
And it was more than anybody should have to take.

Speaker 4 And so I finally

Speaker 4 decided, like, okay, well, this is the one thing I haven't tried.

Speaker 4 And oh my God, the relief, the relief of the

Speaker 4 returning to myself. I was so scared that it was going to make me disconnect.
and go further away from

Speaker 4 my spiritual center. I always felt like my sadness was my identity.
It's part of how I see the world.

Speaker 4 This layer of melancholy is why I'm a writer. It's why I

Speaker 4 think deeply about the pain of other people and I want to interpret and I want to hold it for you. And

Speaker 4 I felt like if I if I abandoned that sadness, somehow I was like abandoning my essential self.

Speaker 4 But I actually like came back and I was like, oh my God, I'm here.

Speaker 4 Here I am. This person can laugh.
I can,

Speaker 4 and I still have terrible days. I still have,

Speaker 4 I'm still very much in touch with my sadness and my anxiety. There's not like a blanket of

Speaker 4 bliss put over anything. I don't feel like another person.

Speaker 4 But it was a really hard decision to make. I felt like I was cheating.
I felt like I was

Speaker 4 trying, I was skirting some

Speaker 4 excavation I should have been doing on myself. I was,

Speaker 4 yeah, I was taking a shortcut. And I'm so glad that I,

Speaker 10 that I

Speaker 4 like took the leap and I'm still on them. And Lexapro has been.

Speaker 4 an incredible tool whether i'm on it for the rest of my life or not i don't know but um it's just a tool and i just want to encourage people, you can just see. You can just see if it helps.

Speaker 4 And it might not. And there are, you know what I mean? Like, I just was scared to try.
And I'm so grateful that I did because the relief is as wide as the universe.

Speaker 8 Thank you for that vulnerability.

Speaker 4 I'm just a crier.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I get it. Me too.

Speaker 5 Wow.

Speaker 7 I remember myself is what you said. I remember myself.
And so for anyone listening who feels like they've forgotten themselves, it's...

Speaker 3 Is that what you felt, Sissy? Because you, I felt like you were getting emotional during that. That's kind of, you felt like it would be cheating too, right?

Speaker 7 I didn't really feel like that. I'm all for shortcuts, but I think I just,

Speaker 7 I was afraid I'd feel changed, that like the magic of me.

Speaker 7 would be different kind of like i'm like what you're saying sarah except i'm way less talented but like like the you felt like maybe be more less, you'd be less efficient.

Speaker 11 Right.

Speaker 7 Just, yeah, the, the meanness, but really it helped me remember myself. I, I felt so distant from who I was and that I was almost a new somebody with all of those things attached.

Speaker 7 And I feel like it brought me back to me. But when

Speaker 7 hearing you talk about Joe is so beautiful and the

Speaker 7 ways that you have partnered through all of this

Speaker 7 are amazing. And you said something

Speaker 7 about him

Speaker 7 that was so beautiful. You said that being loved by him

Speaker 7 feels like he can just exist next to you in the pain. And that that love and that presence

Speaker 7 is allowing someone the dignity of their own discomfort.

Speaker 7 And that I feel like

Speaker 7 we could talk about that for three hours. Totally.

Speaker 7 The way that you put that, that's the reason it feels like when people come to you and they try to fix, or they come to you and try to help, it's stealing your dignity.

Speaker 7 Can you talk about what you mean by that?

Speaker 4 Yeah. I had a therapist for a long time, and that was a phrase that she used a lot.
And I, it has stuck with me because I'm a fixer and it's a

Speaker 2 real

Speaker 4 practice to just be next to someone in pain

Speaker 4 because it's uncomfortable. It's not only just from a place of

Speaker 4 you love this person, so you don't want to see them in pain, but

Speaker 4 it's also ego. It's thinking that like, I know better.

Speaker 4 Do what I did. I've dealt with this with, I have a close friend who's going through some shit and I'm having a hard time not like,

Speaker 4 I'm just trying to pull.

Speaker 4 And really, that's not for me to do. Like, that's real friendship, real love, real relationship is,

Speaker 4 you know, to a certain extent, when someone's landing in a place of harm, of course, you know, intervention is necessary.

Speaker 4 But, but I think just allowing someone to move at the pace they're at, you try to meet them where they are. And

Speaker 4 yeah, Joe's not a saint. He's

Speaker 2 I'm sure.

Speaker 1 No, don't have to tell me I'm always on the unsaint train.

Speaker 2 Always.

Speaker 11 Yes.

Speaker 3 Well, okay, just the dignity of discomfort, too, though, for people who use melancholy, sadness, pain as part of their process.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 The dignity of discomfort to me, it's like respecting the process. It's like if we went up to a cocoon or a chrysalis and we were like, hey, it's too dark.
Wrap it up. Wrap it up.

Speaker 3 Bashing the chrysalis and being like, get your ass out of there because that feels uncomfortable for me to see you so smushed.

Speaker 7 Yes, right.

Speaker 3 And then, and then the freaking

Speaker 3 whatever the stage they're in, they're like, Well, guess I'm not going to become a fucking butterfly now. Yeah, I'm becoming something in here.

Speaker 12 Yeah,

Speaker 3 and because you can't handle this chrysalis part,

Speaker 11 I can't handle that.

Speaker 7 I can't become a butterfly, it's so hard for me.

Speaker 8 Yeah, watching suffering is so impossible, but also, like, being

Speaker 4 as chrysalis people,

Speaker 4 we have to know

Speaker 4 when to

Speaker 4 not everybody needs to hold the mess either. I'm having to learn of like, oh, this is, I just am, I'm working through some shit.
Give me a minute.

Speaker 4 Let me go just walk this off or take a day or whatever it is. And.

Speaker 4 Because it might not be your math problem to solve. Yes.
It's just, it's something like you said, in process, but it's really easy.

Speaker 4 I mean, I, as you've seen, like, I'm just like, vomit everything on everyone at all times. And yet, often feel like totally alone.
I'm like, nobody understands me. But I'm like trying so hard to,

Speaker 4 you know, share everything authentically all the time.

Speaker 3 Are you an Enneagram 4?

Speaker 4 Yes. Okay.

Speaker 11 It's interesting, though.

Speaker 8 I have a follow-up here because both of you are Chrysalis folks.

Speaker 8 You both chose people who want to help and fix. I won't speak for Joe.
No, you're right.

Speaker 8 Would you ever come out of the chrysalis to become a butterfly?

Speaker 8 Would you ever choose to leave the cocoon?

Speaker 7 Are you in a chrysalis coma?

Speaker 7 Is that there for the rest of your life?

Speaker 8 Like this is my, this is my confusion is because I'm like, all right.

Speaker 8 So you're having a time,

Speaker 8 but like life has to continue.

Speaker 8 You do deserve to become a butterfly.

Speaker 8 And by the way, both of you, because you're both artists, the world needs you to become a butterfly for them to actually experience what you've learned in your cocoon. I hear you.

Speaker 6 I do hear what you're saying.

Speaker 3 I see what you're laying down, Wombach.

Speaker 8 I do.

Speaker 2 We are birdies.

Speaker 7 We are butterflies.

Speaker 6 Birdies and butterflies.

Speaker 4 Everybody's got wings around here.

Speaker 3 I just want to ask you, you said my anxiety is usually attached to some unexpressed desire.

Speaker 3 Some wish, some resentment that's building, something I'm not communicating.

Speaker 3 Can you give me an example of that from your life?

Speaker 7 Feels true.

Speaker 2 Feels real true.

Speaker 4 So I am someone who

Speaker 4 my battery recharges in solitude.

Speaker 4 I need to be like totally alone, not even with Joe, not with friends. I need to go like have a nice wander and kind of just feel the edges blur a little bit.

Speaker 4 And that is a thing that I have had a really hard time learning to ask for.

Speaker 4 And I think I have some old shit about what it means to be in a relationship. And like, I'm living with someone for the first time.
I was 40 before I ever moved in with anybody. I was terrible.

Speaker 4 I'm like, I love being alone.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 sometimes it's just space. It's just like, I need space.
I bought an apartment. I bought myself a place I can now go to go away.

Speaker 6 Oh, this is the music studio that you have.

Speaker 4 This is the studio that 100% has a bedroom and a kitchen and a TV and all the things I'm going to need to go just like be like, I'm going to take the dog. and go away for a minute.

Speaker 10 I'm going to record.

Speaker 4 I'm going to record.

Speaker 2 I'm working on a project, um which is my sanity my sanity

Speaker 4 but sometimes it's asking for space it's just space without an attachment of guilt it doesn't have to mean anything it's not space with a capital s it's just i just need some room yes it's just gonna fill my tank and I don't ask for that easily.

Speaker 4 And that's something I'm really working on. So some of my anxiety, like my anxiety oftentimes can feel like claustrophobia.

Speaker 4 Like it, it gets really close to that feeling of like walls closing in, like something's getting choked.

Speaker 4 And, and, and I don't even know. It's not, it's not, I don't equate it as much to like, oh, I didn't tell him that it really pissed me off when he said this.
It's not as much that.

Speaker 4 It's just like the sense of, it's my spirit that just needs some room. And I'm trying to learn to ask for that more.

Speaker 3 It's a good question to ask yourself when you're feeling anxiety yes do i have an unexpressed need because sometimes anxiety can feel like oh i've chosen an inner conflict over an outer conflict like yes right like there's an outer conflict i need to have and i just keep eating it and choosing the inner and i need to make it outer huh Yeah, because it's, doesn't it feel like sometimes, or at least for me, it's placating?

Speaker 4 It's like trying to just,

Speaker 4 it's trying to absolve anybody else of their discomfort. And so what you do is you're just suppressing and eating all of the things that,

Speaker 4 like, what do I actually want? Oh, you want this for dinner. I really wanted this other thing.
Well, get two fucking dinners.

Speaker 11 Yes.

Speaker 4 There's no rules about it, but those very like rudimentary things for me are new learning. That is just like new programming that I can be sovereign in

Speaker 4 love. Ooh.

Speaker 2 That's the name.

Speaker 4 That's the name of this podcast.

Speaker 3 And oh my god, I already have like an entire album for you of song titles just based on the last 20 minutes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, great sorry.

Speaker 7 I'm about to write a record, though.

Speaker 3 Yay! Just old. Yeah, well, we've got the apartment, so we're going to have to write a record.

Speaker 6 Sarah's going to have so many new albums just because she wanted to be alone.

Speaker 7 It's going to be your solitude.

Speaker 4 It's going to be very prolific.

Speaker 7 The origins of We Can Do Our Things were once just a dream of community and connection and expression. That dream turned into the podcast you are listening to today.

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Speaker 7 You said the knowing

Speaker 7 what you want,

Speaker 7 but you've also said that

Speaker 7 this idea feels so so simple. What do I want? Sometimes I find that question to be impossible to answer.
I can't possibly know.

Speaker 8 Yeah. So

Speaker 7 do you have to learn how to figure out what you want before you can get to that place where you

Speaker 4 can

Speaker 7 name that need?

Speaker 4 I think it's helpful for those around you if you

Speaker 4 know what you want before you start asking. For me, that disconnect of not being able to know what I want for something stupid for lunch, right? What do you want to eat?

Speaker 4 You know, not knowing that is usually a symptom of like, okay, I've been like going away from myself for a while. Like, for example, in this moment in my life, I have been in

Speaker 4 post-production for, we made a live capture of the waitress stage production. And I've been in post-production for that.
And doing Into the Woods. in the evenings.
And Joe is gone.

Speaker 4 So I'm taking care of this really wonderful dog that we got together by myself. Louie.
Louie.

Speaker 4 So I just, I was at this place where I was so, and I know a lot of people listening deal with this, where you're just,

Speaker 4 I'm just like, my head is just barely, I'm swimming so hard and I just have no extra minutes in the day. Every moment is spoken for.

Speaker 4 And there's a little bit of like a high that comes from that too, of like, look, what a badass bitch I am. Like, I can get so much done, but I'm not thriving by any sense of the word.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I realized that like, I'm just so focused on meeting the needs around me and the expectations and what's being asked of me is that like, I go away from myself somehow.

Speaker 4 Self-care is just such an overused word, but like

Speaker 4 those ways that we tend to

Speaker 4 our needs, that we nurture.

Speaker 4 our beings,

Speaker 4 those are the practices that very quickly, I think, dissolve when you just start feeling like it's more, it's important that I am this place at this time and I'm meeting this person's needs and I'm showing up with pastries because I'm going to have a really fucking great attitude today.

Speaker 4 Like all the things that you're doing that you get off on because you're doing such a great job. And yet

Speaker 4 I was just withering. I got sick.
I get canker sores when I'm stressed out. My mouth hurts.
It's, I'm trying to sing. And like all those things.

Speaker 4 And then your body talks to you and you're like, you're not paying attention. You know, it's not equilibrium, that's not balanced.

Speaker 4 Um, so I do think staying in touch with that desire, staying in touch with your wants, is an indication of

Speaker 4 paying attention.

Speaker 3 When you're paying attention to yourself and you're remembering yourself, what are the things that make you feel like you're remembering yourself and nourishing yourself?

Speaker 4 Um,

Speaker 4 playfulness, joy,

Speaker 4 a spirit of like,

Speaker 4 I like me.

Speaker 4 That's why I like being alone. I like kind of get a kick out of myself.

Speaker 4 I think I'm kind of wonderful.

Speaker 4 And when I lose that, when I get into this really critical-minded ideas about all of the ways I'm not living up to my potential or I'm not meeting someone's expectations, I've really abandoned that part of myself that knows how to love sarah and not sarah borales but sarah like the person that's like

Speaker 4 kind of caught in between these worlds and whether you have you're a public facing figure or not there's our our personhood that we meet the world with this role we play and then there's that like little kid that grew up into that body and i think there's something really precious about maintaining a connection to that little spirit.

Speaker 11 Oh, I love that so much.

Speaker 3 Maybe we all get a kick out of ourselves.

Speaker 4 Get a kick out of you, man.

Speaker 8 I have a question because we have a little artist in our family, our middle child type.

Speaker 4 Very talented. Very talented.
Oh, come on. I'm such a fan.

Speaker 2 Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 8 Well, so for a person where you've described life as in the world as like chaos,

Speaker 11 how does music

Speaker 8 and art make your life like a little bit easier?

Speaker 4 I would just

Speaker 4 melt into a pool of sadness without it.

Speaker 4 It's like an organizing principle. It makes sense

Speaker 4 not of everything, but it will just make things bite-size for me. So I can take this one experience that's tragic and overwhelming and I can try to hold it.

Speaker 4 I think about it as like these songs are just like

Speaker 4 they're little vessels, they're just containers that can try to capture the essence of an experience.

Speaker 4 And then I move on to the next one, and then I'm impacted by something that I've seen, and I'm trying to capture that and sort of hold it here.

Speaker 4 But it just makes me feel like I can sort of organize the madness. And that was another thing that was so scary to me about

Speaker 4 the pandemic was that, like,

Speaker 4 shit got so big. And then I had nothing to say.

Speaker 4 You know, I was very struck by a lot of artists who had a lot to say. And they were being, you know, they were organizing and they were writing songs about all the things.
And I was just like,

Speaker 4 I don't have anything to add yet. I don't,

Speaker 4 there's nothing to say. I'm just like too,

Speaker 4 the feelings eclipsed any, any ability to try to, you know, metabolize it out loud.

Speaker 3 Do you remember when that changed? Or if? Do you remember a moment? Well, she's writing again.

Speaker 3 So I figured, like, do you, did you have a moment where you were like, oh, or do you not notice that transition back to creativity, back to having something to say?

Speaker 4 Well, I'm going to be honest. I'm

Speaker 4 working through some real insecurity. This is the first time I'm writing on medication.
And there's a part of me that's like

Speaker 4 questioning, is it making an impact on my ability to synthesize and to have a creative output?

Speaker 4 But when I go back, I try to just, you know, keep a voice memo and ideas come through.

Speaker 4 They come through when they come.

Speaker 4 When I go back and listen, I feel like, no, there's something here. There's something here and i need to just kind of walk forward and lean into that

Speaker 4 help you know collaboration i think is a new

Speaker 4 it's a new space a newer space for me and that's also been really helpful to just be validated and work with other artists who can relate um

Speaker 7 If I can offer some validation on this for you, I

Speaker 7 was going back and reading a lot of what you said. And when you originally signed with your

Speaker 7 first

Speaker 7 record label, you cried. You were so upset when you first signed because you were so afraid that they would take something from you that you didn't want to give.
And you said

Speaker 7 this prayer, please let me remember me.

Speaker 7 And then it struck me, you know, years and years and years later when you were talking about your meds and what that did for

Speaker 7 your life

Speaker 7 you said

Speaker 7 this medicine helped me see myself again without the cloak of depression and anxiety i remember me

Speaker 4 that's awesome that's and so

Speaker 7 You are you and no one's taking it from you and your meds aren't taking it from you. And

Speaker 7 Sarah, are the writer of Sarah and it's gonna come.

Speaker 4 Thank you for that. That's really sweet.
I did not think about that. That's very meaningful.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 So, Brave,

Speaker 3 that song. Do you want to tell Sarah? I know you want to tell Sarah about the concert.
Just go ahead.

Speaker 8 Okay, so I don't know if you remember, but it was a concert in Buffalo, New York. And it was raining

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 10 a rainbow showed up.

Speaker 8 up.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 outdoors. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, obviously, that's where rainbows happen.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 It was outdoors.

Speaker 2 I was there.

Speaker 2 You know.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that's all.

Speaker 11 I just.

Speaker 7 Your little queer heart just burst into a thousand little butterflies. I totally remember that.

Speaker 4 I totally remember that.

Speaker 2 Oh, that was.

Speaker 3 A rainbow during brave.

Speaker 3 Brave is about a lot of things. One being saying on the outside who you are on the inside.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Would that be correct?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
Great. Great.

Speaker 3 It's a definition of brave from the song. What is something the world still doesn't know about you?

Speaker 3 Something on the inside that hasn't been translated. Maybe something that's true about Sarah, but is not yet publicly true about Sarah Borelis.

Speaker 4 Oh, God.

Speaker 4 What is something that's true about me?

Speaker 4 I don't know if people don't know it, but I just like,

Speaker 4 I just still struggle with like a tremendous amount of insecurity,

Speaker 4 an extraordinary dedication to not believing in myself.

Speaker 3 Let's change, let's reframe it. We are just committed, Sarah.

Speaker 11 I am

Speaker 11 committed to doing it.

Speaker 11 My question is, though,

Speaker 3 another song title.

Speaker 2 What the fuck will it take?

Speaker 11 Sarah?

Speaker 4 I know.

Speaker 11 What will it actually take?

Speaker 8 I ask this to glennon all the time because i don't have any insecurities about no she doesn't what i did as a soccer player i just think that's so awesome and

Speaker 8 it's incredible it's incredible but part of that was because i had so many other women around me throughout my career looking at me saying you are one of the best and so i had that affirmation for a long time yeah but what will it take like this is my question i don't think anything this is okay i don't i think that's the wrong attitude that you're having

Speaker 7 She humbly, she humbly submits.

Speaker 3 No, what I'm asking is the wrong attitude. We don't need Sarah Borellis to suddenly be a different person.

Speaker 3 We need Sarah to keep being Sarah. We need Sarah with her commitment to doubt.
to continue to show up and make shit even in her insecurity, even in her doubt. That's what we need to see people doing.

Speaker 3 Of course. We don't need Sarah to become a different person.

Speaker 3 What's inspiring to me is people who continue to be themselves, to continue to not know, to continue to have no ground beneath them, and to still show up and be their butterfly selves.

Speaker 4 If I could reorganize the

Speaker 4 atoms in my being and

Speaker 4 be like a fuck it kind of gal, I would. Oh my God, I would.

Speaker 4 I just, I don't even know.

Speaker 4 I wouldn't even know how to begin. But I do think you're right, Glennon.

Speaker 4 I was on tour one time in australia and i was having a real shit show of a time and a lot of anxiety and i was in a bookstore and i saw this book called feel the fear and do it anyway

Speaker 4 i felt so dopey was reading this book at lunch covering the edges you know like feel the band do it anyway but i it became my mantra for a little while because i was i had was having these really obsessive thoughts that like if i left the hotel i'd get lost or like i wouldn't be able to find my way back like it's things that are just like not it's not attached to reality in any way it has stayed with me where i'm like you can be scared and do the thing like you can just let fear be a passenger and not let it stop you from your life because i don't want that would be the only tragedy that could happen is if i don't engage with the world because i'm too afraid of what it might mean.

Speaker 3 What do you think we're so afraid of? Like if I'm talking to therapist, I'm talking to an astrologist, I'm talking to whoever I'm asking to tell me what the fuck's wrong with me.

Speaker 7 Totally.

Speaker 3 There's usually a moment of,

Speaker 3 where's this fear coming from? Like, what are you so afraid of?

Speaker 11 And I'm actually trying to figure that out. I don't know.

Speaker 3 What are we so afraid of?

Speaker 4 My current therapist encourages me to like, I think it's a little kid thing. My little Sarah is like really scared of

Speaker 4 getting left behind or being abandoned in some way. She's like, look at her, get a picture out, bring her into your consciousness and tuck her behind you and say like, you don't, you just, I got you.

Speaker 4 Like, stay with me. You, you get behind me and I'm going to handle this wise-minded

Speaker 4 grown-up

Speaker 4 is going to handle it. And you don't have to be in charge.
You don't, you don't let the kids drive the bus. It's not safe.

Speaker 2 That's good.

Speaker 4 So I've been thinking a lot about that. And, you know, hand on your heart and just like, you're not going anywhere.
I got you.

Speaker 8 Beautiful.

Speaker 3 Sissy, you got anything to say before we wrap this up? Because I need to stop so I can go listen to it.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 7 thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 7 You're so wise and

Speaker 3 wonderful.

Speaker 2 Just wonderful, Sarah.

Speaker 2 Thank you.

Speaker 8 I just knew we would be friends one day.

Speaker 2 I'm so

Speaker 2 now.

Speaker 4 I really, I can't thank you enough.

Speaker 4 This podcast and

Speaker 4 all the three of your presence and work in the world has been such a companion for me in good times and dark times. And it's really,

Speaker 4 it's important work you're doing. And I'm grateful that you invited me to share for a moment.

Speaker 3 Thank you for being brave. Thank you.
Even when you're scared.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Hand on the heart, everybody. Pod squad, hand on the heart.
Deep breath. Think of your 10-year-old self.

Speaker 6 Oh, the baby.

Speaker 5 And tell that baby that you have their back.

Speaker 2 I got you.

Speaker 3 I got you. I got you.
We can do hard things. See you next time.

Speaker 7 Bye.

Speaker 3 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 3 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 3 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 5 This is the most important thing for the pod.

Speaker 3 While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 3 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 3 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.