Melissa McCarthy: Sex, Nuns & Ghosts (Best Of)

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Hi, Pod Squad.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I can't, we have a treat and a half.

It's like 12 treats.

Dozen treats.

All right.

We have a box of dozen treats.

Yeah.

I've never been called a dozen treats.

Oh my God.

Do you hear that voice?

Okay.

When we heard that this person agreed to be on our podcast, we had a text chain celebratory moment.

We were so freaking excited.

Okay, you all, Melissa McCarthy.

Hi there.

Oh my God.

I'm so excited and weirdly nervous to be here.

I don't know why.

Just got really excited.

Melissa McCarthy is an award-winning writer, producer, and actor.

Her work includes Bridesmaids, Can You Ever Forgive Me, Ghostbusters, Gilmore Girls, and Samantha Who.

She won an Emmy Award and People's Choice Award for her role in Mike and Molly, as well as an Emmy for Saturday Night Live.

I'm laughing just thinking about all of this.

Oh my god.

Melissa and her husband, Ben Falcone, who we're excited to talk about.

Your relationship is so beautiful, founded On the Day Productions and have produced Tammy, the boss, Life of the Party, and Bob Ross, Happy Accidents, Betrayal, and Greed.

Melissa McCarthy, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Wow.

What a way to start it off, guys.

I must be old.

It's weird to hear a list of that because they're all like, they're such a part of us.

But when you hear it in the list, you're like, all right.

I'll take take that.

Not old, badass.

Badass.

Amazing.

And I actually want to start with you and I both went to Catholic schools growing up.

Yes.

And I wanted to know how your experience was.

You know,

it was good and good and bad.

I think, you know, I was raised Catholic.

There were certain things about it that I liked.

I did find myself often getting kind of sent to the principal for things that now as an adult, I think back and I just had questions.

Like I was like, well, I remember one of the sisters saying,

I think it was like our first foray into world his or world religions.

And I mean, I'm from a small farm town in Illinois.

So anything with world in it, I was like,

I'm exotic.

I'm wonderfully exotic.

And I just didn't know anything.

I mean, there was no, you know, there's no internet.

You could only, if you didn't experience it, you really didn't know much about it.

And I was little, you know, I was probably in like third grade.

And I remember her talking about other religions.

And then it was also kind of mentioned,

you know, but of course the best one is Catholicism.

And I said, well, why?

I said, isn't the whole thing that maybe none of them are better?

And then the energy changed.

Yes, it did.

And I said, how do you know that you were right?

And she was like, because God would have told me.

And I wasn't being a, I really wasn't trying to be a smartass.

I said, well, okay.

So God would tell you if you're wrong, then why, why hasn't God told everyone else that they're wrong if they are wrong?

Yep.

And she just said, you should go to the principal's office.

And I'm like, well, I'm like the only nerd that actually had questions.

I'm like, regarding the reading.

And they just didn't want to talk about it.

And I get that you're questioning someone's.

basic fiber and what they've built their world on, but I was so ready to be like, well, let's kind of talk about it.

And

I never liked the priest to nun ratio.

I felt that the nuns got very subservient.

And I remember being in second grade being like, well, that's weird.

It's like almost bowing when he came in.

And I was like, hmm, that doesn't seem right.

I didn't know why I didn't like it, but I didn't like that.

And so many of the lessons that be kind, love,

there was so much good.

goodness to it.

I don't practice anymore.

I don't think you have to be inside a certain building to have a relationship with whatever you think of as God.

And if you do, I find solace in that.

I think it's great.

I don't.

I think it's become a bit of a business, which I'm sure would really infuriate so many people, including my family.

But I credit you.

I can't believe I just said that.

I'm in trouble.

Your principal's knocking, Melissa.

I credit you, though, because you actually asked the questions, you know, in eighth grade.

I was too scared.

The Catholic guilt is real.

It's real.

Yeah, I think because I was younger, I didn't even know yet to be like, ooh, this isn't going to go over well.

I didn't know it was a trick question.

Do you have any questions?

Means don't have any questions.

Other than saying, boy, all those other religions are wrong.

Okay.

I can always kind of say the wrong thing.

It's my talent.

It's a beautiful thing.

Something you said that.

I felt very attached to, you said, I'm a shark.

I have to keep moving, keep moving.

Like, you know how sharks, they stop breathing if they stop moving.

And I am like that too.

And I just wondered, is that your way of being?

Or do you ever worry like I do that the need to keep moving, keep moving is just

an effort not to be still?

Yes, on both sides of the coin.

I think it is my natural tendencies.

I'm constantly moving.

And I do always say like I'm a shark.

I have to, I have to be in motion, be moving, doing something.

I'm, I like doing things.

And I do think I fill my day probably with too much.

Sometimes Ben is very calm and very steady.

And sometimes he's like, it is okay to stop and just be in the room instead of me being like, I haven't lifted that chair in a year and a half.

What's under it?

He's like, you've been working for six weeks.

I'm like, I'm going to roll the whole cat.

Like he walked, the poor man walks in in and like the couch is literally turned upside down.

And then I'm down another wormhole of like, should I put casters on this?

And he's like, I don't know what's going on.

You've worked for six months.

This is your first day off.

And like, you have taken apart furniture.

But then I'm like, well, I have to, because I want to make it nice for everybody.

I'm just constantly moving.

And then

I'm trying, it's like something I work.

I like it because I like puttering and fixing things for people.

But yeah, I mean, mean, sometimes Ben's just like, you know, I've come in and like holding up clothes to his back because I like shopped for him.

And he's like,

you know, sometimes it may cross over.

It's too much.

Like, I just, I'm like, hey, should we go into your closet and like make outfits?

He's like, no,

we should not.

We should not do that ever.

You two.

Okay, so Abby and I, we've watched every movie of yours again.

We've been hanging out with you and we've been reading a lot about you and Ben.

And it's just like you work together you raise your girls and it's beautiful and the way you talk about each other is so beautiful and abby we read one interview where i think ben was talking about you and abby looked at me and she goes they remind me of lesbians

first of all thank you for the compliment yes it's our ultimate compliment

I'm always like, you're such a better human than I am.

He's just literally like, there's no,

there's no other side of Ben.

He is exactly who he is.

He's the weirdest person I have ever met.

And that's high praise.

And he's just steady and like endlessly kind.

Like he takes a minute.

I mean, he always calls me fists of justice.

Like I immediately, I respond.

Like the second something happens, I'm like, oh, my God.

What are we going to do?

This is outrageous.

And Ben's like, we could sit and think about it.

And then, and probably there is a way to help.

And I'm already like, my car is in reverse i'm out the driveway just like flipping off the universe and he's like

you want to come on back because there's actually a hotline and you could help i'm like okay he's like where were you driving to i'm like

i don't know but i figured we need to activate there were two physicists that were like there's the the mosquito and the

What is it?

Not the barge, but it's like a submarine.

And one is just spinning and turning, spinning and turning.

And the other just slowly goes.

And they worked together as a team for years.

And they said, you know, both were both were great, but they could never have come up with all the things they did without that weird dynamic.

And there's something to that.

Like, he is, I mean, you couldn't take two of me.

Right.

That seems terrible.

And probably two of Ben wouldn't be a good balance either.

But yeah, he's he's just the greatest.

I feel like I can't even imagine a minute of my life without him.

Like not a minute.

And I love that he, he shows himself in certain moments of movies that you star in.

And I actually have become accustomed to like waiting for it.

And we pause it.

I'm like, this they're like, oh, kids, kids, that's Melissa's actual husband.

And they're like, we know that.

We do that every time.

I mean, it's my, I know, I always try to get him to do bigger parts in it, but when he's directing, as he usually does with our stuff, he's like, no, that's a terrible idea.

So he only takes the littlest parts, but I'm like, or you can take a bigger part.

And he's like, no, someone is supposed to be steering the ship.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

But I love it.

Your fists of justice.

I've been working into my lexicon lately, run around the block, run around the block.

Can you tell us about your skill?

Because I too am a shark.

I too have fists of justice.

I'm like a way less talented Melissa McCarthy.

That is not true at all.

My God.

I often say, because I'm often failing at it, I'm forever trying to get better at running around the block, which does mean

to me when something happens that I don't immediately jump up.

I think because we do run our own things, I take great responsibility with how people are treated.

And since I get to have that umbrella that I'm so grateful for.

I also take it really serious that if someone is being like treated poorly, that I'm like,

what?

And I'm like, I have to go stop this right now.

And I just lurch at everything because I think that just can't happen.

And

if you can do something, and often I feel lucky enough that I am the one that can come and be like, you can't do that.

You can't talk to people like that, or you can't behave like that.

What I always wish is that I said I would handle things so well if when I heard that, I went, I'll be right back.

And if I could just actually run a block, then I would come back and be like,

John,

I need a chat with you.

Instead, I go immediately to John and I'm like,

yelling at people.

And like everything is on like 22.

And then sometimes I do run around the block and then sometimes I don't.

And I always come back in and especially people that know me really well.

They're like, did you run around the block?

And like,

I did not.

I did not run around the block.

I thought about it and I didn't run around the block.

And then sometimes if I do run around the block, I'm literally like, guys,

I ran around the block.

I ran around the block.

And I'm, I'm, it's progress.

It's progress until I don't run around the block again.

So if that made any sense,

it makes total sense.

Perfection.

And I love that.

I love that waiting time, though.

That waiting time, if you really physically did it,

I feel like it's like the car ride home where you finally are like, well, now I know what I would have said.

Yeah.

Or any audition of amazing in my car on the way home.

Yes.

Because you've just waited and calmed down.

So it's what I'm always striving to be better at.

My confusion about that that with myself is: I understand

fists of justice when I have forgotten to run around the block.

But what I don't understand about myself is when I'm about to start fists of justice and I think I should run around the block.

And then I think, nope,

it's like purposely overriding self, even when you know that you're going to be apologizing later.

It's an interesting pattern.

It's the best and worst.

It's like, I'm glad that I'm not like, I don't care.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would hate that.

I'm sure Ben and many people that know me would be like, we could, we could hit a sweet middle.

We could rather hit a sweet middle between these two things.

But I'm not a great gray area person.

I'm working on it.

It is a study that does not come naturally for me.

I kind of sound like a monster.

No, the beauty of people like you and my wife and Amanda, because I'm a little bit more like Ben,

we need people like you

because we are here and put on planet Earth to like support and kind of keep peace and we're calm and cool and patient and collected.

But nothing would go right if you guys weren't around.

I could not agree more.

Could not agree more with that analysis.

So you and Ben are raising two girls.

They're two teenage girls.

Yeah.

Okay, same.

So

what we have figured out, which is upsetting about parenting,

is that in order to teach them shit, you have to know what you think.

Parenting is, it almost demands that you figure out what you think about things because they're going to ask you questions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you have to back it up.

Yes.

Right.

Evidence.

Yeah, gone are the day.

My parents, who are wonderful, wonderful human beings, like at that age, if you asked a question that was kind of complicated, they would be like, don't worry worry about it and like and we were done and they said it lovingly they're incredibly loving people but we just didn't delve into things and that's that's not the way of the world which is great but do you feel like you are clarifying yes your thoughts yes more than you thought you would just because you have to explain it yes our family is always having these ongoing conversations about sex and i just i'm like she usually takes over because she has less shame and guilt and confusion.

And then she didn't think she was straight her whole life.

It's just, it's confusing for me.

You're like, you're coming to me?

Did you figure this out?

I figured it out five years ago.

But I'm confused about everything.

So I'm like, sex is good and beautiful, except sometimes it's not.

Just be open, except also be closed.

How do you talk to your girls?

If your girls were asked, what's mom's philosophy about sex?

What would they say?

First of all, I think they would be like,

I'm so cringing right now.

Some of

I probably don't do enough.

Like we've had the talk, which I did incredibly awkwardly because I knew it was going to come.

I always thought, I'm like, I'm going to do it so early because we're open about anything and they can come to me for anything.

But there is still a Midwestern

former Catholic person that's like,

talk about sex, the lightning bolt comes down.

And so I just very awkwardly, right before she went to school, the day they were going to talk about it at school, I'm like, I'm certainly not having someone else

initiate that conversation with my child.

So we were literally in the backyard picking up after the dog.

So it's really a wonderful time.

And I was like,

why do people love each other?

And Vivi just goes, oh, dear God, is this happening?

And I was like, there are some

different parts of bodies.

So be it.

But at least I was like, just let me be awkward and get through it.

But

I think they know that as long as whoever you're with

is incredibly kind and respectful and only lifts you up.

We talk about that a lot, that

whoever your love will be, and it may change and like you don't have to pick a side, you can pick a side, you don't have to pick a side, you never know what's going to happen.

I said that person has to be incredibly happy when you succeed and incredibly supportive when you fail.

And if those are ever switched, I said, that's the biggest red flag on earth and nothing should make you feel uncomfortable.

Like,

you know, we have it.

I probably now thank you.

Now I have to go have a better talk with them.

No, it's so good.

I've been skirting it.

No, it's so good.

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It's interesting because I came into the family six years ago, so I'm not biological mom.

And so there was a little bit of like easer, easier transition in the conversation for me to have.

And because of the way that we were brought up, Mosaic, I have completely counteracted the Catholicism that lives inside of me.

I didn't

ever get the sex talk.

I didn't ever

get the sex talk.

And then when we were in Catholic school, it was all, what is the word?

To not have sex talk.

Abstinence.

Abstinence.

Abstinence.

You seem to, it seemed to really stick in with you.

No, I, well,

I was, I was a rebel from the beginning, but it's just a very reliable strategy.

So it's a shame you didn't.

It's so hard to have conversations.

It is.

And they, they know so much.

Like my kids are so much more aware of the world yeah and they're such little activists i always say like i don't think anyone will ever tread on them they just won't stand for it which is like i don't know what how i could be more proud of them they're just so well balanced and they're not afraid to speak up if something you know is really wrong both of them are like they will stand up and say like this is not right this is not okay

um when it's really needed and I think I do have to talk to them more about all of that.

So they're, they'll be like, oh, geez.

But then I know the more you talk about it, then they will come to you and they will actually talk to you about it.

And I, not a word was ever spoken.

Like with my parents,

I

don't think I've ever told this.

God, my parents don't know how to get on a podcast.

So I think it's okay.

I remember it was in grade school toward like, it must have been like seventh or eighth grade.

And we went to, there was a sleepover at someone's house.

I can't remember.

And out came some kind of sex book.

And I was like, Oh my god, like I'd never seen anything

before I actually laid eyes on it.

People were like,

somehow parents got brought up.

And I said, Well, I know my mom and dad don't have sex.

And they said, How do you like?

First of all, I think they all knew, like, how dumb are you?

And I said, I know for a fact they can't have sex because my dad cannot do middle splits.

And I literally thought I was like, boom.

So

they were like, fuck are you talking about middle, like middle splits?

And I was like, I didn't know that there was an erection.

So I thought, well, it points down from what I know.

And so the only way to have sex is I thought both participants had to do middle splits.

And then I guess kind of like

wedge, keep like wedging.

And then somehow that's how a baby is formed.

I literally was like,

neither of my parents could do middle splits.

And just the room of these young girls were like i don't know where to even begin with what you've said

thank you for the rest of that i really thought i was like so and i'm not even realizing like you have a sister clearly they've had sex at least twice

but i was like nope they're not that flexible yeah but you were like they must have been at some point that flexible yeah but but i've been taught a lot about the you know mary and the immaculate conception which

another question that i was like don't we assume that you know, there has to be such shame that she can only be good if she got pregnant by not having sex?

Like, even as a kid, I was like, I don't know what sex is, but I'm pretty sure it's part of having a baby.

And they're like, no, no,

it's not.

Yeah.

Here's the thing.

You don't have to have sex to have a baby.

I'm like, what a thing to be teaching.

Yeah.

The immaculate conception.

The flip side of the abstinence is good news.

Yes.

You can have a baby or not have a baby using abstinence.

Speaking of your parents, didn't you describe your sweet parents as having been carved from marzipan?

Yes,

I do, especially my mom.

My dad's feistier and he's always on the move.

He's 82.

He's unbelievable.

He remembers everything.

He moves 100 miles an hour.

He's constantly like, what do you need?

What do you want to do?

And, you know, and I actually just went home and visited for a week.

So so i was in plainfield illinois and we would just sit in the backyard and it's primarily just them being like oh there goes that guy

there goes that guy and it's another squirrel uh-oh look at this buster over there

it's the same squirrel uh just in a different position of the yard and then my dad just walking around with a fly swatter outside

because he's gonna he's gonna put an end to those flies.

I'm like, dad, if you just, we're not being bothered by them.

You're, you're hunting them.

That feels unfair.

So they're just, they're, I mean, at any given point, I even remember when I called them, because I thought I was going to finish college in New York.

And after, like, I don't even know if it had been 48 hours, I was like, so I'm not going to go back to college.

I'm, I'm going to do stand-up.

And I was just waiting to hear the response.

And my mom's like,

well,

okay,

probably.

And I was like, what?

I was like, do you have any thoughts on it?

Well, I find those, I find fashion very unreliable.

I was like, so you're encouraging me to go into the rock steady world of stand-up comedy?

And they were like, well, and they said, well, why not you?

They're like, if you work hard, you're a hard worker.

And if you work hard enough at it and get good at it, why not you?

And it kind of is like the basis for

why I wasn't like,

kid from a farm doesn't go to like LA

and say, like,

I'm going to be an actor.

Like, it just,

that math equation doesn't add up, I think, unless you have parents that are like,

yeah, why not?

Of course you can.

Like you're a really hard worker.

Like it's their work ethic is so.

strong.

I think it's why I work so hard and I enjoy what I do.

Their work ethic is like something, it's kind of remarkable.

that feels filtered into me but also never there was never a thought

and anything even if i couldn't do backhand spring right that's like yes you can you just don't know how to do it yet so so go ahead and do it i was like oh okay and then i kicked him in the head quite violently but

this the sweetness remains

oh my god because so many of us try to protect our kids from the world's rejection by rejecting them.

Like we're afraid the world's going to say no to them.

So we say no first.

You can't do it.

It won't work.

I know.

If I could physically wrap my children in bubble wrap, I would be like, I wanted to put a chip in my kids.

And then I was like, that's awful.

And I was like, hey, let's, we have chips in our dogs.

I said, why can't I chip the kids?

He's like, is this really the comfort?

You want to go to the vet and have them chip their children?

And I was like, can we do that?

He's like, we're not going to have this conversation.

I was like,

we are in it.

We are in the conversation.

Because I think about, I think it has something to do with human rights.

Right?

That's what he said.

I was like, they're little.

They don't have rights yet.

They don't own anything.

I don't mean that.

They have human rights.

Human rights.

So we're always talking on this pod about generational things we're trying to break.

So do you and Ben have those things

that you brought that you're trying to do differently

with your babes?

Yes, even with my parents so sweet i went through a really like gothic phase uh which i loved i think it's probably why i ended up loving characters so much i was like i don't want to be me but like you put robert smith hair on a five foot irish gal she's suddenly a little more interesting um at least it was to myself i try to whenever they're going through phases I want to never, even if it is something that's like kind of really funny or like this will be funny later.

I try to always

think of it as what it means to them that, you know, I'm wearing these frozen boots for eight months straight.

Georgie went through a phase where she just had these little, like, these little black boots like that Ana wore in frozen.

And

then I was just always like, I, instead of being like, this is so cute, like, you're going to remember this and kind of almost, there's a mockingness to that.

Instead, I tried to always be aware to be like, those boots are incredible

because they made her feel good so i was like don't diminish or make cutesy something that for whatever reason she wanted those boots on and they empowered her my mom lovingly but would always like come in with the you know the disposable camera and be like you're gonna get such a kick out of you later and like take a picture of me and i was like it's not it's not a joke it's not a costume as i was like literally in a full costume but uh i try not to do that or i try not to i'm a real fiddler so i try not to be like that's great or

yes which i'm a you know i'm always like if i if i would just have ended the sentence after great exactly it's just this constant like project and people aren't projects are they no and especially my oldest daughter she truly is like i don't care what it's a shirt i have shirt sometimes it's an amazing outfit and it's so she's really has the heart uh of an artist they're both really creative and i get such a kick out of that.

And then when it's just like, I'm in pajama bottoms and like what I slept in, I'm like, or what about that Victorian skirt?

What about that with like a doc mart?

Oh, is that fun?

And she's like, not today.

Like, she's more bent.

And I'm always trying to be like, do you want me to run upstairs and get it?

And we just look at it.

She's like, no, that's okay.

Like, no malice, but I'm like, and I can always feel myself where I'm like,

I just, if I could just again run around the block instead, I'm like, I'm just going to go get it.

Because it'll be fun to look at.

And Ben's like, don't do what you're doing.

I'm like,

well, it makes me actually think of like the first thing you do when you get a new role or a character is you go to the wig store.

Oh,

why do you do that?

One, it's my super happy place.

I think I love a wig shop because in makeup and costume, it's all such a big part of it.

I think there's something so altering about a wig that I find really magical because it's not just like, well, it's a different color.

It's a different texture.

It's something that you really can't be because I'm not that.

And I can put it on and I feel like this is as close as I can truly get to like walking in somebody else's shoes.

It seems silly because it's such a superficial thing.

But it's like, I can put on a wig and, you know, I'll try on like 40 wigs.

And when I get the right one, I'm like, oh,

well, she, you know, she loves grape juice and doesn't care.

Like, I just suddenly have all these very, very weird, specific things that I feel like I know to be true in my heart.

And I know it's all conjured.

But a wig, it's like, it's the fun of acting for me because like sometimes I'm like, I don't always quite know what to do with myself as me.

But when I step into somebody else's shoes, I feel like, well, I know how they feel about it.

Like, it's much more, I think, difficult to sometimes state state my own opinion.

Not that I'm, not that I'm tentative at all, but sometimes I'm like, I don't know, but I mean, I see the good and the bad and this and this.

But if I'm someone else, I'm like, they don't like it.

And here's 15 reasons why they don't like it.

I can really be

more succinct with it.

I don't know what that says about me as me, but that's cool.

It's like your respect for your characters.

You have such a profound

respect for the characters that you play.

And I, it's wild thinking about you put on the wig and you're like, now I know she loves grape juice.

Now I know it's so multi-dimensional, every single character

that you play.

I truly love

people that walk to their, just their complete, their own rhythm.

I find it like so beautiful to watch.

I find it fascinating.

I mean, I used to always go, Big Lots was my favorite place to go because there used to be one on Western that was gigantic.

And it reminded me of home.

It was like an old dime store.

It really was the place I went a couple of times a week.

And I would just walk around for an hour because you saw the most eclectic group of people.

They would never all be in the same place.

And there was just always somebody in there that's like doing their own thing.

She doesn't care.

She's not causing trouble, but it's like, I'm all in purple.

And I wear purple and everything on me is purple.

And then I follow them in the car and their car is purple.

And then say, stop following people.

It's getting, it's getting weird.

I also think they're the people that like get the eye rolls or

get like,

they're so strange or they're, they're off-putting.

I don't want people to be, to be mean to people.

I don't like that.

But when someone's just like, this is what it is.

I get up, I put this armor on every day.

And if it's all purple, if I only wear plaid and I do these strange things, I just love that there are still people out there that can

like just own who they are and they don't have to be like, do you?

I mean, especially now with, I feel like social media, it's like, did you like my vacations?

Do you like my holiday decorations?

I'm like, what are we doing?

Who cares?

Why are you showing?

And like, so when I see someone who's, I guess, traditionally a little more off, I'm so enamored with those people that when I get to play them,

I really do love them.

Like, I feel like I've gotten to know all these different women because of those roles.

And I, I love, I love them for all their flaws and all their, their mistakes and their good and bad points.

I just, I love, I, I just love it.

And is this why you also are obsessed with, and maybe you're not obsessed.

Okay.

I am projecting that because I share this with you, but I read that you enjoy going to vintage stores and finding random portraits of people?

I love a portrait.

I, no, I'm, I'm obsessed.

It's, I love it.

And you love it too.

My whole, the whole entrance of my, and people will say, who is that?

And I'm like, I don't know, but I don't know.

But look at that.

That's the whole point.

I don't know.

I don't know, but she loves grape juice.

Yeah, she loves grape juice.

I also think, like, where, why isn't this person with their family?

I always feel like I have to be like, somebody, oh my God, like, I can't, i can't leave like bernice

you know piled in a corner of some thrift store right so i bring bernice home because bernice now has friends because there's 24 of them in my office and i'm like they're alone now all these people are together it's like i just i and ben is very terrified of portraits okay like he's just like they're they're haunting us

he does not like them at all and he's kind of made me now the kids are like no more portraits it's weird

and i was like i think you're I think you're lying.

Yeah.

I think you like them.

And they're like, no, we're telling you we don't like them.

They have caught me like coming into the house.

And they're like, do you have one?

You promised.

I'm like, I never promised.

I'm going to rescue you each time I find one.

I love them.

It's something like what you do in your work.

I'm just saying.

It's like these people that aren't being seen.

And then you're like, no, that person does not belong in the corner.

I'm going to bring that person up, put them right on the wall.

Yep.

And if she's standing next to a horse very proudly, all the better.

Yes.

That's exactly right.

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I don't even remember what happened, but I remember reading

an apology that you gave.

It was a video,

and it was such a gorgeous example of how to apologize that I saved it and I showed it to our whole team and was just like, this is it.

This is correct.

So,

what makes a good apology?

And why

do 99% of the time we all suck at it?

Well, I don't know if I was good at it.

I just thought we literally were doing 21 days of kindness.

It was, we were, I think it was super no good deed goes unpunished, Melissa.

Gonna have to apologize for that.

Yeah, one of the charities we picked, which on paper and everything we vetted, looked tremendous.

And then literally the day we're like, here's the day, send, you know, support this cause, blah, blah, blah.

We found out that like they were also doing all these terrible things.

We're completely like homophobic.

The headline for what the charity was doing was one thing.

And then as we like got deeper into it, and I thought, my God, I've just literally

I'm trying to raise money for this.

And it was like trying to catch something in the air.

I felt so bad about, I just felt terrible.

But I also, I think if you get, oh my God, all I do is mess up.

If I, if you can't mess up and then go, oh my God, I, I screwed up so badly.

And then just say, in all honesty, I missed it.

We didn't know.

Like we never would have done this.

So like, I'm,

I think if it's just, it's sincere and I don't think it has to be.

So I'm sure I was rambling.

It's another thing I try to teach the girls, like you're going to screw up constantly.

It's just part of being human.

You just have to really own it when you do.

And you have to own it quickly and you have to own it 200%.

And I did wonder, I was like, oh, I wonder if there's going to be like theory about this, because it really was an organization that would never, ever back by

five billion miles.

And it really, people were just like, that's okay.

We all make mistakes.

And it was, it was such a nice,

I was so pleased by the response because I do worry sometimes that

the concept of one and done, I just, I don't know any humans that are able to do that and fit into that world.

And if you really sincerely apologize and you mean it, it also takes, I think it takes some of the pressure off of everybody.

Yes.

As if it's okay to go, oh my God, I couldn't have done that worse if I tried.

I'm so sorry.

Instead of we're all supposed to be perfect and say the right things and use the right words and blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, I'm going to screw up 20 times a day.

for sure.

And so is everybody else.

So if you're just sincere about it, I certainly felt like i had screwed up by backing that but then i'm like well all i can do is say i screwed up yeah owning it quickly and completely i have found that people are so unused to to hearing other people own anything completely that when they hear that

they're so amazed by it they're so excited that somebody finally apologized without excuses and all the

you know.

You can hear a real apology instead of a fake one.

Yeah, you can tell.

You can tell.

That's the difference.

The response from so many people now, I always think of, like, I always see people as like giant toddlers that, you know, if they cover their eyes, they're like, you can't see me.

And you're like,

well, I can because you're in the room.

And they're like, no, you can't.

Like with so much in the last, especially four, five years of just like,

you know, you don't have a black headband on.

I'm like, no, I'm literally wearing a black headband no you're not like there's no i think everybody wants to be like if i just kind of duck and cover no one will notice what i did

and so nobody either rises or falls it's just this weird cowering because no one wants to get called out i know i would be i would love to hear a politician just be like God, I screwed that up.

Yes.

I could have screwed that up worse if I like, I would, I think the world would just be

so amazed and

by that coming from people that are, in theory, supposed to be helping people.

Agree.

It's so good because when you just say owning it without the 14 asterisks that are like, but here's what we did, but here's why it should have happened.

And here's why someone else is actually to blame, but I'm being big by apologizing.

People are then responding to your explanation.

Whereas if you just say,

I blew it and I'm sorry, then people respond

to

you saying that, as opposed to inviting them to be like, well, was my explanation sufficient?

The sincerity of it, we all have that, that little meter and you can tell when someone's bullshitting or not, or

doing it to be like, I know it wasn't exactly right, but this, these were our motives.

You can never trust that person again.

There's just, there's a, there's a thing that's broken, especially if that's a repeated thing.

Like you just need to come out and don't, don't couch it.

You have to really throw your whole self into like, you screwed up.

There's something really like from that.

I think you can rebuild anything on that basis.

Agreed.

Agreed.

I read that you said this recently.

I don't do the thing anymore of, yeah, I don't like how that person treats people or treats me, but they're still in my circle.

We're not all going to be friends.

And if you treat people like garbage, I don't care if you're nice to me.

I can see that and I can take them off the list a lot easier than I used to.

Can you operationalize that for us?

What are the words?

How do you draw a boundary with someone?

If there's somebody in your life who you've just found out

is an asshole.

Yeah.

What do you do?

How do you say it?

Yeah.

Like, is it internally being like, that person is done for me?

Or is it externally?

Do you have to actually do something?

I think it depends on if it's someone who's like

really in my heart it's a conversation and is there a way through this is this are you in a bad place is something happening

and then if it is like no this is really how i feel then i'm like okay then we part ways if it's a business thing we do crazy checks on everybody because we don't want to work with the person that

you know, is screaming at someone in the room or being terrible.

But if it's not in like kind of my heart circle, it's very easy, no matter what the offer is.

I don't choose to work with people that,

you know, have come out and said things or just treat people abusively.

It's no job is worth that to me.

I'd rather, I'd rather miss out.

It's hard when they're people you love.

I mean, it's really sticky when it's people.

you know, in your family or in your in your tight rings when all of a sudden you're like, oh, we may be completely

in opposing positions on some pretty huge things in life.

That's something that I guess naively I thought I'd never have to deal with, but it's, it comes up.

And then I try to think about it in terms of

as much as I wouldn't want them to call me and say, I think everything you think is incorrect.

Will you change?

Because I'd be like, I can't turn against my basic beliefs.

And so I do try to hold some space for people people

that I think right now is not the time.

They're not able to maybe see a different way.

So I do kind of put them in a different category of,

I know what I'm dealing with, but if I stay the course,

will I be there for them when they maybe are like, oh, I hadn't thought about that, especially with.

I think religion and politics and everything right now gets so crazy.

And no one's going to change my opinion.

I mean, if you're like, well, I don't think two people of the same gender can be married.

There's no version of a world where someone's going to talk to me and I'm going to go, huh, you're right.

I hadn't, I'm just trying to hold a space for someone.

So maybe at the right time, maybe I can be part of them going,

oh, you know, as long like, just do no harm.

Do no, if you do no harm, you don't want someone to tell you what to do.

They don't want to be told.

I try to hold space, but I back off a little.

I've done that with people that I'm still kind of, I'm certainly rooting for them to come

around to a more open and loving way of seeing the world.

But I do worry about if I completely cut them out, again, not everybody, certain people, that maybe they don't have someone that will ever be the influence.

But being around my kids might make them be like,

you know, it's, it's a tricky, sticky,

there's no way to do it.

I think it's a, it's a person-by-person basis and it's, it's messy and it's heartbreaking.

And I do try to run around the block a lot with that.

Yeah.

So I don't really step in it.

Okay.

So I was so freaking excited

when I read what you said.

And you said, I believe in ghosts.

I had an experience with a ghost.

Me too.

What was your experience?

What?

Was it ghost shark?

Well, I was living in an apartment.

I was living living in an apartment and I saw a little girl in a dress, white dress.

And she lived there with me for the seven years that I lived in my apartment.

Did you see her multiple times?

Oh, yeah, like 20 times.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

I mean, Abby was also on a lot of drugs for a while.

That was during a pretty intense drinking, drugging.

But what was your experience?

Well, I'd had when my great-grandmother lived with us on the farm.

And when she passed away, I've had two different things.

When she passed away, I was

just distraught.

We were very, very close.

And I was crying in my room.

And then all of a sudden, I like, just felt a really strong presence.

And she was in my little bedroom.

And it was just a look.

And I just kind of knew everything was okay.

And I was like, oh.

And just kind of went downstairs.

And my mom's like, are you feeling better?

I'm like, yeah, because I was upset about my great-grandmother passing away and i was like yeah i think grand like great grandma's fine she was just in my room and i was like

oh she was just like we're kind of not going to touch that topic she's like probably

and then i kind of said it casually and then i had another thing with my my mom's mom i had i was in la at the time and she had passed away and i had just gotten the call and I was driving and I was crying really hard.

And my sweet dad had given me his car that was that I had in LA.

And I'd probably had it nine months, but I'd never gone in the glove compartment, like ever.

Like I don't keep anything in there.

I couldn't reach it.

I'm too short from the driver's side.

And I, but I was like, I need a Kleenex.

And I was like, he probably had Kleenex in here.

So I'm looking all over.

The first time I ever, I opened the little door.

you know, to the glove compartment and a picture,

I swear I'm not lying, this little little picture flipped out and landed on the passenger seat facing up and it was a portrait of my grandmother who two minutes earlier i'd heard passed away

that i never like i didn't have it in there and my dad's like i don't remember putting it in the glove compartment but i must have and it was just sitting there on the seat and i had the same reaction i was like oh And I got the feeling that she was like, for God's sakes, you're driving.

Like, get it together.

I should have pulled over, but she was just there.

And then I had a weird thing in Colorado where like we, I took the attic because I was like, ha, a bigger room.

And then you got up there and you're like, this is haunted by a million souls.

And like you would hear things.

It was in Boulder, Colorado.

The feeling was so palpable that I would know like which side.

Like it was, you know, it was so strong.

I never saw anything, but you would hear things or like you had to, the only way to get in the kitchen door, you had had to like pull up the handle and like hit it with your hip to get in.

And we were sitting in the living room once and the door just like flew open and there was no wind and it like slammed against the door.

And so just weird, even a friend that stayed there with me, he's like, we are not alone in this room like at all.

That's do they scare you or do you feel like these experiences that it like make you feel safer?

Especially with my two, my great and my grandma,

those were like, it was an incredibly calming feeling.

And it was it, it was funny.

I've actually never thought about that.

Both times I was crying about them passing.

Like I thought of it separately.

And they just appeared in different ways.

But it was the most calming thought of like, it's fine.

I'm fine.

Like, it's okay.

And then even in the weird house that we were renting in Boulder, like, I didn't feel it was menacing.

It was just so palpable

that I was always like, well, I know, I know somebody's here, but I didn't know anything about the history.

We were the first people that were not of the family to live.

It was like a hundred-year-old house, and we were the first non-family members to rent to have it.

So I'm like, I don't know, but I was sleeping in an attic with somebody every night.

So you're not Catholic anymore, but you do have a,

you believe that there's more than we can see here.

Like,

how would you describe your spirituality?

I strongly, strongly believe that this is not it.

I just, I, in my head, I feel, I feel too much and I, oh my God, I couldn't even, I couldn't even, I can't comprehend a world where

I won't see my grandmother or my great grandmother or like, oh God, I can't even finish the sentence and start crying.

Like the thought of not,

that it just ends.

I just think there's too much magic.

Whatever, whatever it is you feel between people, there's no way to quantify that that just ends one day.

Like I just couldn't bear it.

I had my, my sister once said, we went out ironically for a beer and then she sat down.

She's like, I'd like to talk about your salvation.

I was like, oh boy.

Okay.

This is a big one.

But she was, she was worried.

And I said, I, you know, I don't think any of us have the same thought of whatever God is, whatever

swirling cluster of magic, you know, is it, I don't know what it is.

I don't think it's a person.

It's certainly I don't see it as a white dude with a great beard.

But I do think something Sarah and I talk to God all the time, but it's like in my car or I'm just like thinking about things.

I said, it's not that I don't believe in the magic at all.

I just, I don't think it has, I don't think it has a specific address.

And I don't think it can be connected to anything hateful.

Yeah.

So if you're saying, you're wrong, you're wrong, you can't do this.

We don't acknowledge that me,

you know, I think of those old, really old cartoons where it's like, you get to the pearly gates.

I think so many people that are really religious, I'm like, you're not going to get into that club.

You're going to have to do it.

Like, I do feel like they're going to be like, boy, did you screw that up?

Like, just go back and be nice.

Like, it's so simple.

Yes.

But I certainly don't, you know, I think, I think maybe my sister thought I was like an atheist, which I'm really not.

Cause I, I just, I don't know how that, there's too much magic, I think.

Yeah.

Whatever that means.

It's the

theme of what you told your daughters about just always finding someone that will lift them up and the way that your mom lifted you up when you said the audacious I'm going to move, and the way that your spirituality is about lifting up.

It's a really beautiful

theme of life.

Theme of life.

It's beautiful.

It's a constant fail and re-jigger and try to do it better, but it's certainly, and Ben, I mean,

Ben's whole thing.

I mean, he's just like, if there's one thing, if everybody was just like, is this the kindest, not being walked over, but like,

is the next thing I'm about to do the kindest version that I can that I can do or the kindest version of this moment that I can participate in?

He's like, if everybody just followed that, we think about it all the time.

We're like, can you imagine a world like even 24 hours where everybody like stopped trying to one-up or I'm going to get noticed for this terrible hate shitty remark about someone?

I look forward to being back in style where doing the right thing also seems interesting.

Like, that would be so cool instead of like

just being the biggest dirtbag gets you noticed.

I'm like, oh, God.

Okay, we're about to wrap here, tragically for us.

Oh my gosh.

What's hard for you right now?

Raising two women in a country that I feel like women are under attack for, I feel like all of my gay friends and women.

And my God, when they're both, they're like, I got it coming for me multiple ways.

Sometimes the girls ask me questions about

just basic human rights and kindness.

And

I am so overwhelmed that I don't have a good answer for them.

I can't make it better.

I can't say, this won't happen.

We won't, it won't come to this.

People just like to be loud.

I'm like, we're in it.

I never thought I would just be kind of fearful to be in this country.

And I.

I want to take it back.

And I just want to look at people and be like, I'm here to tell you, no one's trying to turn you.

I can guarantee you, Mitch McConnell, no one wants you.

I don't want to force you to believe anything, and you shouldn't force me.

Just do no harm.

And everybody should just be able to like play in the same sand lot.

And it's really hard.

I mean, you guys know with

kids, it's like they want an answer to

something that seems insane.

It seems like an insane, scary movie that I don't want to watch and we're living in it.

And when there, there is no, I don't have the words because the thoughts aren't in my head of how to how to make it better or even justify it.

That's what scares me.

And I feel, I believe there's more good

than

menace 100%.

It's just

the hate is so much louder.

I always think of it as a visual of like, you have, you're at an intersection.

There's one person that's just screaming like, you're all gonna die and I hate you.

Bah, like just, it's so aggressive and loud.

And then there's somebody else on the other corner.

It's like, you're doing a great job.

You're great.

You had a great day.

Should we have another one today?

It's like, there's no way to do that with the same volume.

So I'm always like, do we just have, is it physically being like, Caroline, Craig?

Like, don't, I don't know how to go up against that.

It's like one has a microphone and a huge amp, and then somebody else is like talking, like the nice guy's like talking into a milk bottle.

Just like,

i know the good outweighs the bad i try to always when i feel scared remember that but it's so quiet that i think we forget it's there so i don't know so i try to remember that but it's a scary place right now can we please just have a skit where melissa mccarthy is screaming on the side of the road at people just you're doing great so good

i would do that all day long i would just love it i do yell things at people a bunch yeah

i like i'm very

weirdly vocal but it's in i think it's probably off-putting to people because i'm always like oh say it like if you think it's say it yeah so i do often roll down the window and i'm like i'm in love with that scar

and then they kind of do as if they do recognize me it's almost like

what

So I do like, I try to do that more and more because everybody's yelling something.

I love to throw like a loud, aggressive compliment.

Yeah.

First, people are like, what's going on?

I'm like, you like Tarak.

I really encourage it.

It's like, it's the best.

And then I feel better for doing it.

I think it's that, it's that wonderful ripple effect of like, I'm so glad I did it.

And then I bet that person's

within the hour is going to see something nice to that person and then it's going to keep ping-ponging.

And I want that ripple effect more.

So good.

All right.

That's our next right thing, pod squad.

If we think something positive,

we're going to say something positive.

And that's

like a new twist.

See something.

See something, scream it.

Okay, babe, I'm actually, I'm just going to go with say, okay, because I don't want you doing that around the house.

Melissa McCarthy, you are a goddamn dream.

Yeah.

You are.

Well, tell it to the mirrors, guys.

You're so awesome.

And, you know, Bridesmaids is our family's like go-to.

Although I would say The Starling is now a.

Well, that was just the most special.

It just crashed on this week.

Go see the Starlink if you haven't.

Get it in your living room.

Thank you for this hour.

Thanks.

I can't.

This has been such a delight.

And I just love what you guys do.

And I love that every day you're just, you're, you're making that ripple effect better and you're making it easier to talk about everything instead of just holding, holding in what.

weighs you down.

It's like, it's really impactful what you do.

And I just, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

Thank you.

We love you, Pod Squad.

We'll see you next time.

Bye.

Bye, guys.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.