Cher is Here!

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Speaker 2 Pod squad,

Speaker 2 if I could reach the stars,

Speaker 2 I'd give them all to you.

Speaker 3 And you love me, love me, like you used to do.

Speaker 1 I don't think we should go there.

Speaker 4 I think we should just introduce the guests. I think we've gone there.

Speaker 4 And I don't think there's a damn thing you can do about it.

Speaker 1 I know, but it's like kind of

Speaker 2 pod squad. We're a little amped up because we just spent the last hour with

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 With

Speaker 2 Cher.

Speaker 2 Cher

Speaker 2 is on the podcast today.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the first amazing news is that Cher is on the podcast. The second amazing news is that Cher was so warm,

Speaker 2 so wonderful. Cher helped us solve all of our life problems.

Speaker 2 Cher talked to us about how life is like a bumper car situation and the only way to survive is to be a bumper car, which you're going to need to hear.

Speaker 2 Cher talked to us about her regrets when Chaz came out to her.

Speaker 2 She talked to us about emotionally abusive relationships she's been in and how she got out and what Lucille Ball said to her when she went to her for advice about how to get out.

Speaker 2 And she talked to us directly about what she would say to anyone who finds themselves in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship.

Speaker 4 And what she told Tina Turner to help Tina Turner get out of hers.

Speaker 2 Just yeah, just the whole thing is so beautiful.

Speaker 4 She's a joyful, beautiful person, she is.

Speaker 2 And I just loved her before this interview and afterwards. I love her even more, and you will too.
And I actually think that this conversation is going to help get ready.

Speaker 3 The one

Speaker 1 we give you, share the icon.

Speaker 2 Let's go.

Speaker 5 Can you hear me?

Speaker 3 Yes, we can hear you.

Speaker 5 Okay, here I am.

Speaker 3 Share

Speaker 2 you are share

Speaker 3 yes i am

Speaker 3 since abby

Speaker 2 and that's my sister amanda hi hello and i'm glennin and i'm gonna be cool i'm gonna be cool share we love you we hope you thank you wait we're all gonna be cool then okay

Speaker 2 i can't promise to be cool i am rarely cool okay i'll be cool we love you we'll just start with thank you all right well that's a good start okay i like that i know you haven't heard that often that's a new thing for you to hear.

Speaker 2 Your book, I absolutely loved. I started and didn't stop.
Abby came up to me and said, how is it? What are you thinking? And I just thought, we know share the icon. We know share the Oscar winner.

Speaker 2 We know share the singer. We know you, but this is so personal.
This book is so personal. And it was such, it's such a gift to learn about you as a person.

Speaker 2 And I said to Abby, I just wish I could sit with her for an hour and ask her advice. And Abby said, well, don't we get to sit with her for an hour? You can ask her advice.

Speaker 3 And I thought, oh my God.

Speaker 5 I have to tell you too. I had to write that thing again.

Speaker 5 It was three times. And it was just, it was such a bitch.
I cannot tell you because it's hard. First of all, it's hard telling things you don't really want to tell.

Speaker 5 And then it's hard trying to

Speaker 5 get things in your own voice and be very careful. But then after a while, it was actually after a while, it was pretty good, but it was never easy.

Speaker 5 I was more proud of it, even though I think I should have done it one more time, but I was more proud of it. But it's not easy.
It just wasn't easy. Or maybe it just wasn't easy for me.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 I'm a book writer, and I agree that writing books is very hard. And I think one of the things that's hardest is telling the truth while also honoring your people.

Speaker 2 And you did that so beautifully. I loved everyone in your book, even the complicated relationships, all of it.
I thought it was beautifully done.

Speaker 5 Thank you. I have to tell you that the first book that was written that I didn't have anything to do with, it was more like the encyclopedia.

Speaker 5 Then, when I started doing it, I kept telling everybody: these have got to be stories, they can't be information. Yeah,

Speaker 4 yeah,

Speaker 2 speaking of stories, you start with you and your mama at an Elvis concert

Speaker 2 and you're surrounded by all of the fainting girls, the screaming girls. And right from the beginning, that story got me because you looked at Elvis and you said, I want to be him.

Speaker 2 And I thought, oh, I bet the other girls were thinking, I want to be with him.

Speaker 4 Right? Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 5 my mom, my mom was crazy,

Speaker 5 but my mom could be so much fun. And like when I said, mom, can we get on the chairs and scream too? I had no idea why I was doing it, but I wanted to do it.
And she said, sure, babe, get on.

Speaker 5 So we got up on the chairs and we were screaming and yelling. And my mom was so different than my friends' moms.
My mom was really cool and she was excited to be there.

Speaker 5 You know, we didn't have much money, but she got it and we just had the best time.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's so many beautiful things in your book about your relationships. And since it's this, this first one is about early relationships, there's a lot about Sonny and Cher.

Speaker 2 And so much beauty was born from that relationship. But I was very grateful for your honesty in discussing the hard parts about how you lost yourself a bit in that relationship.
So when you look back,

Speaker 2 what parts of that relationship were hurtful? How did you lose yourself? So many people write to us about about losing themselves inside of relationships, and your story can be a real gift to them.

Speaker 2 So can you talk to us about that a little bit?

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, I was only 16, so I didn't have much self to lose, you know, and Sonny was a much different person.

Speaker 5 And we just had this thing, you know, if Sonny came back right now, we would be Sonny and Cher.

Speaker 5 It's just that thing. Not that I liked him at the end, but even if he came back, we would be Sonny and Cher.
We couldn't help it. And I'm very forgiving.

Speaker 5 And so it was so complicated. It was so fucking complicated.
He was really nice in the beginning.

Speaker 5 And then when we lost all of our money, it was maybe one of the best periods for us, except maybe then the beginning of the Sonny and Cher show, because that was so much fun.

Speaker 5 And it was a time where I had power that he didn't have because for me, it was just pretending, you know, it was just having a good time. He didn't come by it easily.

Speaker 4 Oh, it was harder for him to do the show than you, like harder for him to get into that character. Is that what you mean?

Speaker 5 Right. Well, he ended up doing a character who didn't study his lines.

Speaker 2 That does make it harder.

Speaker 5 Right. So that was where he was going to go.
And then that was fabulous because we all laughed and, you know, and that was him.

Speaker 5 And then it started to get not so much fun. I mean, mean, before that, I was not having a great time, but in the middle of the Sonny and Cher show, I was just not having a good time at all.

Speaker 5 I was having a great time with the show. I was not having a good time with him.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So you would be in your relationship suffering and then get on stage and be acting out the parts.

Speaker 5 But you know what? This is what's going to be hardest for people to understand.

Speaker 5 We weren't acting out parts. We were really having a great time, but it was the only place where I had a great time

Speaker 5 because I couldn't be under his thumb.

Speaker 5 And because I realized, this happened to me twice, once when I had chess and once when we did the Sonny and Cher show, that I had freedom and that he knew he had to give me freedom in order for me.

Speaker 5 to help him and in order for us to have a good time.

Speaker 5 And thank God we worked most of the time because it would have been too hard for me.

Speaker 2 Yeah, sure. It felt like when I was reading, it felt like, oh, she's allowed to exist on the stage.
But then off the stage, it was very controlling, right?

Speaker 2 You weren't allowed to wear what you wanted or wear perfume or have friends. It was kind of controlling offstage, right?

Speaker 5 Well, wait, babe, say that one more time because I think I'm losing you guys for a minute. Okay, let's try this again.
Okay, you said something about uh

Speaker 5 what i said sunny was an asshole

Speaker 2 well well i was saying it felt like i when i was reading

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 your relationship was good on stage because he was wanting you to exist in all your shareness on stage but then off stage it felt like he was controlling you oh yeah yeah it was it was terrible actually

Speaker 5 yeah it was like on stage

Speaker 5 we were equals And also, maybe he needed me more than I needed him. Yes.

Speaker 5 But off stage, because I had started so young,

Speaker 5 he was not interested in me being a human being at all.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 Now,

Speaker 2 Share, there's this story that you tell in this book that I think could save lives.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 And when things got really bad,

Speaker 2 you started thinking, maybe I have to end my life because because I don't know how to get out of this. And then you're standing on a balcony and you have this epiphany.

Speaker 5 Well, I was having a really, really hard time.

Speaker 5 And when we were on the road, I just wasn't allowed any freedom at all.

Speaker 5 So I wasn't allowed to talk to the band. I wasn't allowed to do anything.
I wasn't allowed to go anyplace, you know, I just wasn't allowed to to do anything.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 I kept thinking, I can't take this. And then one night I stopped eating.
I stopped sleeping. And one night I just thought, I got to get out of here.
I'm just going to jump off this thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And then I thought, I can leave him.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's such a beautiful thing because when you're in a bad relationship, your vision narrows and you think you only have this one option. So when I read that, oh, I don't have to jump.

Speaker 2 I can leave him. I thought, that's going to save lives that moment.

Speaker 5 So then what happened? Right. I mean, it was like, it was a phenomenon.
Like, oh, I don't have to do this. I can do that.
And it just never occurred to me to do it.

Speaker 5 I think because he had so much control when we were not doing the show. And when we were on stage, it was the same thing.
We were equal and there was nothing he could do.

Speaker 5 So at those two points, we were having a fun time and he was enjoying it. We were, I think, always destined to be Sonny and Cher.

Speaker 5 And so it was really fun, you know? And then the moment it was over, then it was, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 5 I don't know. It wasn't fun.

Speaker 4 You hear these stories about this. And in my experience, I'm just wondering, like, was it the more popular you got, the more a life you had on stage,

Speaker 4 did that correspond with the more control he was exerting over you? Like, was it in response to you getting bigger that you needed to be smaller in the relationship?

Speaker 5 I really don't know because when I was young, I was kind of sickly. I have the strangest kind of a lot of energy, you know, a lot of emotion, a lot of just vitality, and then sickness.

Speaker 5 And when I met him, I was in a sick kind of period and he took care of me and then it kind of stayed like that and stayed like that and then it got a little bit worse and it was more than taken care of it was telling you what to do and what not to do and i never thought

Speaker 5 i just never thought to rebel because the one time i told him how i felt and i remember saying i'm just not happy and he just started screaming at me and said do you want me to divorce you i should have said yes.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 But you know what? I wasn't ready till I was ready. I just, it hadn't taken so long.
But because our careers were so entwined with our personal life, I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 5 You know, also, I have dyslexia. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but it's like I never made out a check until I was like

Speaker 5 right before I left him. I just was terrified.
So I wasn't, I knew how to do what I did and I didn't know how to do much else except when Charles was born. And that was a great thing.

Speaker 5 When Charles was born, now this is before the show. When Charles was born, it lifted me up.
When we started to do the TV show, it lifted me up. And there was nothing he could do to me in those times.

Speaker 5 And I don't think there was anything he wanted to do to me.

Speaker 2 How did you leave? Do you remember those moments? Like, how did you do it? I read in the book that you talked to Lucille Ball about what to do.

Speaker 2 This was a beautiful sisterhood chain that you talked to Lucille Ball. And then after you left, Tina Turner came to you

Speaker 2 to ask you for advice. What did she ask you?

Speaker 5 What, Lucy?

Speaker 2 Yeah, you asked Lucy, right, first.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I asked Lucy. I said, you know, you're the only person that I know of who's ever been in this kind of a position.
The only one. I said, and I don't know what to do.

Speaker 5 And she said, fuck him, you're the one with the talent.

Speaker 4 That's an evergreen statement, if I've ever heard one.

Speaker 5 Yeah, and that's so Lucy.

Speaker 5 I knew Lucy when I was little.

Speaker 2 God. And then what did you say to Tina? What did Tina ask you exactly?

Speaker 5 How did you leave him?

Speaker 2 And what did you say to her?

Speaker 5 I said, I just walked out one night.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 2 So what would you say right now, you share, who's who's been through all this, who's gotten out of this, what would you say to a woman who's listening right now, who might be in a physically or emotionally abusive relationship?

Speaker 2 What would your advice be to a friend?

Speaker 5 I would say

Speaker 5 it was easier for me to leave, except I ended up with a car and my clothes, and that was it.

Speaker 4 And a $2 million debt.

Speaker 5 Yeah, well, that's true. I forgot about that.

Speaker 5 I remembered at the time, but I would tell, if you have any way to do it, do it, you know, because as I got older and more kind of like angry about having no freedom, that's when all of the, I can't do anything.

Speaker 5 I'm going to have to jump off. I can't do anything.
I'm never going to be able to do anything. I'm just going to be caught here forever.
So I don't know.

Speaker 5 Tell a friend, tell your mom, tell somebody, and get out. If you can get out, get out.
And if you can't get out, get out anyway.

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Speaker 2 So you seem happy now in your relationship. Are you happy now in your relationship with Alexander? Yes.

Speaker 5 You are.

Speaker 2 Yes. Why?

Speaker 5 I'm very happy. He's great.
He's actually very settled.

Speaker 5 But we talk so much. We have everything to talk about.
We talk about music. We talk about friends.
We talk about love. We talk about desires.

Speaker 5 We talk about hope and God and slash, you know, and we talk about music a lot because we both love it. And we're going to do an album together.
But that

Speaker 5 is not just what we talk about, but we talk about... our love of things, you know, and not material things, just things of doing things.

Speaker 5 And it's just, I don't know, we just get along except sometimes.

Speaker 2 How do you guys do conflict? When you're not getting along, how do you argue?

Speaker 5 Well, I'm the older one.

Speaker 5 So I'm pretty good with conflict because I'm better at it. I've had it longer and I love him.

Speaker 5 So it's easier, even though sometimes it's not, but it's kind of give and take, but

Speaker 5 I give more and he gives more. He thinks he gives more.
I think I give more. So I don't know.

Speaker 4 I heard you talking about how slow to anger you are. And as I was reading, I was wondering,

Speaker 4 that's baffling to me to be slow to anger. When you're thinking about all of your work and you're also thinking about your life, what do you attribute being so slow to anger?

Speaker 4 And does part of you wish that you were

Speaker 4 like when I think about your relationships, do you wish you were faster to anger? Or do you think it has served you or not served you to be so slow to anger?

Speaker 5 Well, I don't know what it's done, but I know that the reason that I'm slow to anger is because of my father, because everybody else and my father, I met my father until I was 11.

Speaker 5 And my mother and my sister are quick to anger. My grandmother's quick to anger.
The man who I'd call my father, quick to anger.

Speaker 5 My real father, boy, you just, he'll just wait and wait and talk to you. And, you know, he was very easy.

Speaker 5 He was like, there were two things I learned from my dad. Well, actually, three.
One, he ate slowly. And my mother used to say, Shir, don't dawdle with your food.
And I wasn't dawdling.

Speaker 5 I was just eating slowly. And he had the long fuse and he had a good temperament in all ways, except he was a heroin addict.
So that's always a rough one. And I don't know.

Speaker 5 I'm so happy that I have some of those things. Oh, and I smile like he does.
My mom used to look at me every once in a while going, huh? And I was wondering, what is she thinking?

Speaker 5 Because I know it doesn't have anything to do. And yet it probably does have something to do with me.
So I'm glad that I don't.

Speaker 5 And people who know me just, but God, if you really piss me off, run for the hills. Okay.
Because it takes so long to piss me off. But then, you know, you just don't want to be there.

Speaker 2 Cher, when's the last time you were really pissed off?

Speaker 5 Tim, when was the last time with Lisa? I honestly can't remember. It was in Sanctuary.

Speaker 1 That would be like 20.

Speaker 5 And who was it?

Speaker 2 Lisa.

Speaker 5 Lisa. Yeah, 20, how many years ago? 27 years ago.
Oh, wait. No, I was mad at my sister.
Okay.

Speaker 5 And how long ago was that? 15.

Speaker 5 So one is 20 something and one's 15.

Speaker 4 Holy shit.

Speaker 4 I don't even understand that. But you don't have like a simmer.
You're not pushing it down, your anger. It just doesn't exist.

Speaker 5 It just takes a lot. And I,

Speaker 5 it's just, I don't know. I just don't.
Maybe I should have more, but I wouldn't like that. And I'm not doing it consciously at all.

Speaker 4 I think it's beautiful. I'm just jealous.

Speaker 5 I just don't have it too much. I can't find it.
You know, I mean, like, it comes to me every once in a while, like every 15 or 25 years, but oh, no, there was, there was the one about Rosie.

Speaker 4 Can you tell us one of those three stories?

Speaker 5 All right, I'll tell you the Rosie story. So I love Rosie and she works on the road with us, and I just adore her, right? And we had this new guy as a road manager.
Is that what he was?

Speaker 5 Yeah, as a roadie. And he didn't think much of us because he had worked in rock and roll and thought we were just idiots and so one night he came to pick up everybody from the hotel

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 he saw rosie come to the bus and shut the door on her

Speaker 5 and so rosie called me so when this guy came in i pushed him up against the wall and i said motherfucker you will be gone when she's still here god i love you so much oh Of course.

Speaker 2 Of course, it was a righteous anger.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 But I was pretty much uncontrolled.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 4 Okay. I'm glad you picked that one.

Speaker 2 I want to talk to you, Cher, about women and money for a minute. So I have, there's like two favorite sets of words that anyone has ever said, that I've ever heard anyone say.

Speaker 2 And the first set of words is when my children have said, no, the second, my second favorite is when when my children told me that they loved me my first

Speaker 2 favorite set of words that has ever been uttered by a human being is the words mom i am a rich man yeah

Speaker 2 it seems that girls like that yes okay so just in case no one has heard it

Speaker 2 your mom sits you down and says share so we were standing you were standing

Speaker 5 okay you tell the story you tell it you tell it yeah yeah so we're in the kitchen and we're by the dining room table, which is not in the dining room, but it's like the kitchen table.

Speaker 5 And uh, I was telling her that I wanted to make this movie, but I didn't have enough money and I didn't see where I was going to get it, or I couldn't figure it out, and I didn't know who to go to, and blah blah blah blah.

Speaker 5 And my mom said,

Speaker 5 Babe, you should marry a rich man. And I went, Mom, I am a rich man.

Speaker 5 Okay, and the other day I saw it on a painting, and sometimes I see it on a needle point like on a on a pillow.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Yes. It seems to appeal to us.

Speaker 2 So you have made and lost and made fortunes. You have supported so many people.

Speaker 2 You have had times in your life when you've had complete control of your money and times it's been stolen from you and times you didn't even know what you made.

Speaker 2 Cher, what do you want women to know about money?

Speaker 5 It's hard to learn about money, especially when you're poor it's really hard because you it scares you and what you have to do is like keep your head down and find out what people are doing with it because

Speaker 5 oh you know some people are not always good so you have to try to find out what it means what your money means what you're doing what people are doing to you because

Speaker 5 it's not easy.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Also, I trusted Sonny. Big mistake.
Yeah. And I asked him, which was always like a huge thing for me.

Speaker 5 It was like, son, when, just tell me, what day or time or year or situation were we having when you thought it was okay to take all my money?

Speaker 5 And he said, I always knew you'd leave me.

Speaker 2 Which wasn't an answer.

Speaker 5 No, because he didn't have a good one.

Speaker 3 No, no.

Speaker 4 Or maybe that was his answer because he knew that you were the prize you're the talent

Speaker 5 thing and that so he was at least going to get the money when you left it's kind of rough too i mean that's a good answer in theory but you know it's still

Speaker 5 it's just not good because

Speaker 5 you know i was there by his side working every moment it wasn't like he deserved it

Speaker 5 oh god no and to say i did it because i knew you'd always leave me is just bullshit.

Speaker 4 It's abusive.

Speaker 4 It's a terrible thing. What was the moment like when you learned that those contracts,

Speaker 4 that your company did not in fact belong to you? That you were contracted to work for a company that was named for you, but you owned 0% of.

Speaker 5 Right. Share enterprises.

Speaker 4 Share enterprises. He owned 95% and the lawyer owned 5% and you owned 0%.
And that you could only work for that company.

Speaker 5 Yes, that made me really really angry and disappointed in him because it wasn't that he was just taking my money he was making it so i couldn't earn any yeah

Speaker 5 yeah and david told me

Speaker 5 oh yeah that was a beautiful story yeah david just said sweetheart this is not good it's you know we have to do something about this but it took us kind of a long time and finally my lawyer said, you have to get divorced.

Speaker 5 And then you could break the contract. But when I broke the contract, there was no money to get.
And the judge made me pay him $2 million.

Speaker 5 He just said, Miss, in America, we don't welch on contracts. We don't try to pull out of contracts.

Speaker 5 And I said, well, I didn't say it, but I thought, well, what do you do about people who steal your money?

Speaker 5 How does that grab you?

Speaker 4 Well, in America, we let husbands steal money from their wives.

Speaker 5 wives right yeah that's what we do right okay fine well then i went to work and you went to work yeah and you always went to work but then in the end i said son i can't do this all by myself i just can't do it so you're gonna have to help me because i know i'm killing myself out here and you're gonna have to help me because i you won't get your money very soon if you if you don't give me a hand yeah

Speaker 2 we just are so delighted to ask you as queer women and queer advocates. We are big fans of Chas, who you have called the strongest person in your family, which is so beautiful.

Speaker 2 Talk to us a little bit. We have so many listeners because we are queer whose children are coming out or transitioning.
And it can be just a wonderful but scary.

Speaker 2 time for a parent where so much is gained and some things are lost and it's it can be confusing and hard can you talk to us a little bit how that has gone for you and what you would say to?

Speaker 5 I was terrible, I was terrible. Okay,

Speaker 5 I was just terrible, and I was terrible. Chas said, I'm gay, I was terrible.
It was just it was ridiculous, and I don't want to support all my friends.

Speaker 5 I mean, disappoint, but I was really nervous about

Speaker 5 what Chas would face.

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 5 and I couldn't,

Speaker 5 i couldn't do anything but then

Speaker 5 we were going to alanon together and we've been going to alanon for a while and then chas came in and said i want to do this and i was like okay

Speaker 5 but then after that i started to get really nervous after he told you about the transition no oh after he said this is what i want to do okay and you'll notice that in the beginning, I called Chas Chas.

Speaker 5 Yes. And I got an okay.

Speaker 5 So it was really rough. And then

Speaker 5 it just was fine. And I don't know what I had to go through.
But now it's great. But I don't know what made me go through all that stuff.
I know I was really nervous about what was going to happen.

Speaker 5 I was really frightened about what would happen and what kind of backlash he would have, you know, and at that time too, it wasn't like everybody was doing this, you know, it was like there were people who were transitioning, but I was nervous for child's.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that is so fair. And we talk about it all the time that it's often not that you're scared of your kid, you're scared for your kid and you're scared about the world.

Speaker 2 And I don't think it's disappointing that you say that. I think it's so honest and it's a gift because it gives parents permission to not get it, nail it the first time but to keep trying

Speaker 5 well yes and and i have to say i was just frightened i was just frightened you know when i think about it i wasn't the person that i should have been i wasn't the person that i wanted to be or maybe not wanted to be i didn't know how to be maybe

Speaker 5 but everyone would expect me to you know go oh yeah that's great but now

Speaker 5 you know we we have a great relationship, really great fun. And we work together in a project,

Speaker 5 on a couple of projects. And it's just, it's great.
You know, Chaz is a great person. Chaz is so much more together than I am.

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Speaker 2 What have you found to be the hardest thing about parenting?

Speaker 5 Oh, God.

Speaker 5 What?

Speaker 5 Not screwing it up. Oh, and I do all the time.
Yeah, I'm a mess.

Speaker 5 Sometimes, you know, and my kids have had to put up with so much from me. You know,

Speaker 5 it's not easy being the child of a famous person.

Speaker 5 think the best time we had when Chas was young was Chas and Gina, her best friend.

Speaker 5 And when we were on the road, they were working for me in Vegas and they were having the best time and we were all having a great time and Elijah was little and we just were out there in Vegas and

Speaker 5 having the best time, except it was a bitch in Vegas then. And everyone said, oh, Sherry, went to the elephant's graveyard.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God. I mean, Cher,

Speaker 3 what? Okay.

Speaker 2 Give us some information.

Speaker 5 You know, everybody and their brother wants to be in Las Vegas.

Speaker 4 And everyone's wearing the naked dress at the Met and everyone's showing their belly button. You know who did it first?

Speaker 3 Share. Cher did it.

Speaker 5 I probably didn't do it. I just did it.

Speaker 3 No, you did.

Speaker 4 You were the first one to show your belly button on.

Speaker 5 Oh, no, I know that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Speaker 5 And the Met dress, I must say,

Speaker 5 no one's ever done it like Bob because I was naked under it.

Speaker 4 Oh, God, it was just a work of goddamn art.

Speaker 5 Well, he's an artist.

Speaker 2 Speaking of everyone saying that you are going to the elephant graveyard, tell us how to survive being any sort of woman in the world with people saying all the shit that they're always saying.

Speaker 2 How does one...

Speaker 2 If you can do what you have done and been so excellent for so long in the face of all of the shit, how?

Speaker 5 You know, I just wouldn't give up. I just wouldn't stop.
I didn't know how to do anything else. And I have this picture in my mind that I

Speaker 5 realized it's like, I'm like a bumper car. And if I hit a wall, I'm going to back up and I'm going to go in another direction.
And that's all that was left for me. I didn't really know another way.

Speaker 5 I didn't know how to do anything else. And so like when I hit one bad thing, I went to New York and became became an actress.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I don't know how I did it. It was like such a fluke.

Speaker 3 A fluke.

Speaker 2 And then you're, you are the most amazing actor on the planet. Like you just kept fluking your way into being the most amazing.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Well, no, getting my first job was really an accident.
And I have to thank my mom because I'd gone to do an audition for Joe Papp.

Speaker 5 And he said, you know, Cheryl, you're really good. But,

Speaker 5 well, first first i gone i gone to do an audition for mike nichols and he didn't have all that much to say and i said to him you know what i'm really talented and one day you're going to be so yes i loved that right so francis says if you're going to be an actress and so did shelly winters get your ass to new york so i got my ass to new york did the audition it wasn't that good actually it wasn't not good it was quite good but he said and i can't tell you but there are are two kinds of women and you're not the one I need for this part.

Speaker 5 So anyway, so I get to New York and Chas is living with Lee, Strassberg, and Anna, Lee and Anna, and their kids. And so

Speaker 5 Randy and I, who was also living with them, Randy and I were going to do this thing for Joe Papp.

Speaker 5 And so he went up to Lee and he said, uh Lee, Cher wants to know, would you give her some help on this? And he said, Cher knows too much already.

Speaker 5 And he turned around and walked away and i just well that's not very nice so anyway so we go to do the thing for joe pap and then when i come out there's a thing you know those memo things that say somebody called yes so robert altman had called me and the thing was that my mom and catherine had been friends and robert too so My mom knew I was in New York and I'd given her my number and all that.

Speaker 5 So my mom calls, but she's gotten my number mixed up with Robert and Catherine's number. And my mom calls their house.
And she said, hi, is Cher there? And the guy is kind of not so nice.

Speaker 5 And he said, no. And she said, oh, well, I thought Cher was there.
And then he said, what would Cher be doing here? Then she went, wait a minute, Robert? And he said, Georgia?

Speaker 5 And she said, oh, I thought, oh, I got, I screwed this thing up. So he said, what's Cher doing here? And she said, well, she wants to be an actress.
And he said, ah, okay.

Speaker 5 So in a little while, he calls me and said, so your mom says you want to be an actress. And I went, yeah.

Speaker 5 And he said, well, I'm going to send you a script. I'm not offering it to you, but I'm sending it to you.

Speaker 5 I said, okay.

Speaker 5 And so it gets there late. And then he calls me and I went, okay.
I know the part that you want me to play, but I can't do it. And he said, do you have a job? And I said, no.

Speaker 5 He said, well, then pass over here.

Speaker 5 So I went over and then I said, well, you know, I'm dyslexic and I could read or I can act, but I can't do them both. And he said, I don't care.
I just want to hear how your voice sounds.

Speaker 5 And I said, all right, but I can tell you I can do one of the parts. And he said, all right.
He was exhausted and exasperated and whatever. So we sat down.

Speaker 5 All the women were there, Sandy and Karen and Sudie. And we were all sitting down on the floor.
And so I read the part that I knew I couldn't do. And then I read the part that I knew I could do.
And

Speaker 5 Sandy said it was the worst reading I had ever heard in my life.

Speaker 5 But she said, from the first moment you started it, I was fascinated. And then so I said, okay, well, that's always good.
And then Robert asked me, he said, you're right.

Speaker 5 You can't play that part, but you can play that part. And then we're talking and we're talking.
And he said, What did you think of Popeye? And I said, I thought you ruined it.

Speaker 5 And then everybody who was in the room turned like when a shark is coming and fish are just, you know, they're just there swimming.

Speaker 5 And then they all turn in the middle, sideways, and you can't see them. And they're gone.
So anybody, everybody was like, gone. And then he said, God damn it, everybody says that.

Speaker 5 So anyway, so I got the part and then I go go on Broadway. And then on a Wednesday, so I'm doing my matinee and I was, I love doing matinees.
So I come off stage and Mike is there. And so

Speaker 5 he said, you were right, you're talented and I'm really sorry. And the truth was, I'd broken up with my boyfriend and he had come back.
and was backstage.

Speaker 5 And I was really more interested in seeing my boyfriend than getting a part in this movie. So then he said, it's with Meryl Streep.
And I went, okay.

Speaker 5 And then I get back to my apartment. My sister's there.
And I went, Jesus Christ, I can't do a movie with Meryl Streep. And I'm packing.

Speaker 5 And then I start unpacking. And then my sister starts packing me.
And

Speaker 5 so I end up getting the job. And then I end up going to Texas.

Speaker 2 Do you love acting? Or do you love singing more? Or what do you love the most? What's the art form that you love the the most to do

Speaker 5 they're different acting is concentrating and singing is not singing is just you stand on the stage and you just let your voice come out and it can be really big and it can be soft it can be whatever and then acting is like

Speaker 5 getting kind of

Speaker 5 small

Speaker 5 inside and then letting things come out. And they can come out loud and they can come out angry.
They can come out anyway, but it's more of an internal thing.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's beautiful. Okay, I have one last question.

Speaker 2 What's your next dream?

Speaker 5 Oh, my next dream is this album I'm going to do with Alexander because I shouldn't be singing at this age because it's not easy.

Speaker 5 And I didn't know I would be when I made the Christmas album, I didn't think I could sing anymore. And then all of a sudden I could.

Speaker 5 And then now I just want to be able to do it again because the songs he got, you know, he used to be vice president of Def Jam. So the songs he got are so genius.

Speaker 2 How wonderful. Well, we can't wait for that.
Your book is

Speaker 2 beautiful. Also, are the other two parts coming out? Like, how will that happen?

Speaker 5 Well, there's not two parts coming out. There's another part coming out.

Speaker 2 Okay. And when is that coming out?

Speaker 5 I have no idea.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 4 When she gets to it, don't push her.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying.

Speaker 3 She's doing a lot.

Speaker 5 Next Christmas. Okay.
Oh, great.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 5 Wonderful. That's a long time, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 It will be worth the wait. Cher, thank you for never giving up, like you just said.
Thank you for being just a gorgeous example of freedom and courage your whole life.

Speaker 2 This hour has been an honor for us, and we are forever grateful to you.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 5 But courage has not been. the strongest thing.
It's motivate. It's just moving forward.
You know, I've never thought of it as courage. It was just not giving up.

Speaker 2 That's even more inspiring because then you don't have to have the courage. You can just not stop while you're scared.

Speaker 3 You just don't give up.

Speaker 5 Right. You just don't give up.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much, Cher.

Speaker 3 Bye-bye. Bye, Cher.

Speaker 4 Thank you. I never thought I'd be able to say that.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.