Make Rest Your Revolution with Tricia Hersey

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Dearest pod squad, I cannot believe that we recorded this episode a week before the election because I cannot imagine any person or topic I need to hear from or about more than Tricia Hersey

on how

to escape the matrix.

That

is what today is about.

It is a conversation about how to live in a

oppressive, controlling atmosphere and still find ways of being free and joyful and full of life.

This conversation is a gift and it is right on time.

I'm going to listen to it over and over again.

Yes, the trickster energy that she says.

We live in this world, but they can't have us.

We can't let them just take us and have us.

We are going to live with trickster energy to keep our joy, keep our dignity, keep our life force through all of it.

Yep.

Let's go.

Hi, pod squad.

You know, podcasters are often saying this a conversation will change your life, and that annoys me.

But this time,

it is true.

This conversation,

if you open your mind and heart enough,

could change your life.

Okay.

And the reason why is because the conversation you're about to hear is from Tricia Hersey.

I'm going to read to you part of her new book, which will let you know whether or not this conversation is for you.

Here we go.

Are you exhausted?

Are you waiting for permission to slow down?

Are you waiting to save up enough money and time off from work to fly away to an expensive retreat in another land?

Are you waiting for the powers that be to create policies that are drenched with care and room for you to get off the grind?

Are you feeling guilt and shame when you rest?

Are you hoping for deliverance from pushing through at all costs?

Are you waiting for permission?

I have felt like I am waiting to add more life to my life for so long.

And I have felt like there's a part of me that is dormant because I am so busy adulting that I have forgotten how to human.

And that I live off of a list, and that that crushes the magic in my life, that I might be making a living, but I have forgotten why life is worth living.

The woman who

you're about to hear from

has taught me and so many millions of others how to live in this world where we are in the talons of so many things, capitalism, racism, misogyny, all of it, all the isms,

hustle culture too,

and also find pockets of freedom that change our life.

Today, she's going to talk about how to do that using something called trickster energy, which when you think of a trickster, it's just a being that lives in the same world you do and still finds ways to subvert, resist, revive, create magic.

We are going to talk about how to create magic in our lives.

And we're going to do that with the Tricia Hersey, who is a multidisciplinary artist, theologian, escape artist, and founder of the Nat Ministry.

She is the global pioneer and originator of the Rest as Resistance and Rest as Reparations frameworks.

And she collaborates with communities all over the world to create sacred spaces where the liberatory, restorative, and disruptive power of rest can take hold.

Trisha's work is seeded within the soils of Black radical thought, somatics, Afrofuturism, womanism, and liberation theology.

She is a Chicago native who believes in daydreaming, porch sitting, and poetry.

Her latest book, We Will Rest, The Art of Escape, which will live forever in my living room, is available now.

After this conversation, please also go back and listen to our prior spellbinding conversation with Tricia, episode 139.

It's called No More Grind: How to Finally Rest with Trisha Hersey.

By the end of this episode, I want you to be able to

channel one place in your day in your life where you will find this magic

of which Trisha speaks and I know is real.

Welcome, Trisha Hersey.

Hi.

Oh, wait.

Look at the books behind you.

Wait, turn around.

It's so cute.

Of course.

Of course.

It's my escape manual.

Display.

A display item.

So good, Trisha.

How are you guys doing?

I'm delighted because you are a very important person to me.

So this is an important hour for me.

And I'm really grateful that you offered us one of your hours.

Thank you.

So excited.

Yeah.

I was like, I want to talk to them again.

Can we do that?

So yeah, I'm excited.

I was listening yesterday back to our original conversation we had.

Yeah.

And I was like, that was amazing.

I mean, I was really impressed by us.

Mostly you.

No, it was a community.

It was a great time.

I remember it so much.

And just think about that.

That was what, 2022, it seems like a whole century has gone by.

Can you believe it?

Like, I don't even understand.

Like, when I think about 2020 and then now like just the pandemic era world

i'm very confused most times of what year it is and what year we want i can't believe it that's two years ago and now here we are about to get into um 2025.

so yeah but trisha that's because you're escaping you're not in the regular timeline anymore no no i am not no you are you are in the time but not of the time

which i want to talk about which is so great and inspiring but it's also quite challenging to live in a world like an outlier like that.

That's the new thing that I've been deepening into, like the idea of kind of feeling like, hmm, something's a little different about how I'm living and then not being able to connect with people around you.

Because every single person around me hasn't really begun the process of dismantling grind culture in their life.

And so

people are always like, why don't you get some mentors, some people who are like doing things like you and some people who are doing business like you so you can have.

I have a mentor was telling me this.

I'm like, I don't know anybody.

Everybody I know is like all my friends who are like entrepreneurs and doing work that is really amazing.

They're like working 80 hours a week.

You know, they're not just, they're in it and they want to like start it.

And I understand it to be like this lifelong process, but I've been really thinking about the idea of loneliness.

You know, I've been thinking about the idea of this public health issue of loneliness and what it means to be connected, but not connected.

And I've been thinking about actually volunteering at a senior citizen's home that I used to be a chaplain at.

You know, I went to seminary to be a chaplain.

And so I was an intern there for years.

And so all my friends were like 80 and over and they would like hang out with me all day.

They had time to sit and play bingo, watch movies, lifetime movies, go on walls, go to the park, like

the children, the animals, and then the ones who are retired.

Pod squad, we're back with Tricia Hersey.

And if you have not listened to our first episode with Tricia Hersey, you must go back and listen.

If you haven't, it's okay.

We will also have Tricia introduce herself again to you if you are someone who doesn't know her yet.

And if you are someone who doesn't know her or her work yet, I'm excited for you.

Because

to me, in my last couple years of

trying to to figure life out, Tricia and her work have been just in my mind and heart every single day.

Wow.

Wow.

Truly, truly.

And in this moment where we are all feeling caught, stuck, trapped in the talons of something or other, where we feel in some ways we have lost the life in our life and the humanity in our humanness and the magic and the freedom of life.

You are helping us all learn to see why we feel stuck, number one,

and then how to escape and not

in a binary way, right?

In sort of this magical little

tastes of freedom and liberation and joy and magic.

So first, can you, Tricia,

tell us,

for somebody who doesn't know your work yet, how would you want them to hear who you are and what you do?

Thank you so much.

Yeah, that's a good question.

I think for someone who has never heard of my work, I would always want to say I'm an artist.

Like I'm most proud of being an artist.

I'm most proud of more than being a theologian, a activist, you know, a writer, author.

I am an artist and I've been an artist since I was a child and I think artists will save the world.

I think artists are saving the world.

I have a son who's 17 years old.

When he was in my womb, I prayed over him every day.

I want him to be an artist.

I raised, I want to raise an artist.

My first baby, I want to bring an artist to the world.

I would read James Ball went to him and play jazz music.

And I was like, the world needs more artists.

They need someone who thinks like the way an artist thinks, someone who can have vision, who can push back.

And so I think that's who I am.

My work is liberation work.

I'm just, I'm an experimenter.

I think my work is merely things that I'm curious about, that I want to lean into, that I feel like have helped save my life.

And I'm just really curious about how to disrupt.

I'm a disruptor by birth.

You know, I want to disrupt what anything, any narrative that's speaking to us that says that we aren't enough, that says that we aren't divine, that says that everything we have is when we came into the earth, that we're a miracle.

And so anything that's against that, I'm trying to pull it down, you know, and so whatever way i can do that you know through writing through the nap ministry through poetry through raising an artist a son you know all of these things i want my work to uplift humanity to be something that's just makes you curious i just want someone to cock their head a little be like hmm

i don't know about you know something's a little off about that you know like just i want to be on the numbers and be like i i raised my hand and said hey that's not right you know i want that to go down in history that i actually raised my hand and was like ah no

all of the stuff that you are saying about us is not true.

The patriarchy, ableism, capitalism, all that stuff, it just feels wrong to me.

And I want to be in the archives to say, Tricia said something about it, even though it may have not come down in her lifetime.

She was like, uh-uh, no,

absolutely not.

And so that's my work, I think, in a nutshell.

When you start the NAT ministry, talk to us about your grandmother in her chair, your father

what made Tricia start going huh wait

what this doesn't feel right like Tricia my entire life has been my face like wait this doesn't feel right

so what didn't feel right and what did you feel like people needed to see and to escape Yeah, specifically, that's a good question about the NAT ministry because the NAP ministry is one of my newest projects.

Like I've been an artist since I I was like a working artist, doing projects, creating things since I was probably, you know, 15, 16 years old in high school.

And so this is the newest project.

And so for the NAP ministry, what started to come to be, I think it's really a cocktail, a beautiful cocktail of everything I've ever done in my life.

The being a poet, the being a writer, being raised by an activist.

My dad was a community organizer and activist, union organizer, a preacher, growing up in the Black Pentecostal church, you know, having that spiritual foundation, my grandmother being a refugee from Jim Crow terrorism, me being her favorite grandchild.

She told me I was her favorite.

So I like sat up under this woman all the time.

She was my boo.

Like that was me and her.

And so

being up under her and watching how she moved and navigated the world she was in.

And then just always being encouraged to be an artist, always being encouraged to write.

And so poetry would be my first influx into art.

And then from there, it turned into plays and performance art and theater and all these things.

But then that ministry came to be when I started to really be like,

I can't do this is the pace.

When I began seminary, when I began theology school in 2013,

not even the first semester, first two weeks when we got those first syllabus and I was trying to keep, I was like,

I don't know.

I was sitting on the side of the, on the porch on these little steps near the psychology building on the phone with my husband, crying like i don't know what i've got myself into i don't think i can do this he's like school literally started two weeks ago i'm like i know but you you don't see these syllabus you don't i don't know if i can keep up like there's 500 pages to read a week per class so there's like thousands of pages we have a six-year-old baby how am i going to get him i don't i can't afford it what are we going to do and so I just stayed with it.

And the more I stayed with it, the more I was like, this is an unsustainable pace.

I won't be able to keep up with this.

And then I think what made it so beautiful is what I was studying.

I was studying cultural trauma.

That was like my main reason is like, I was in the archive studying the idea of what trauma has done to us as a culture.

So I was really looking at Jim Crow terrorism survivors, like interviewing people who had survived Jim Crow and studying.

plantation labor in the south, you know, reading the ideas of what was happening around our bodies, the somatics of slavery and what it did to our bodies and our minds.

And then I was studying that at the same time, I was exhausted.

I was having headaches.

I was not feeling well mentally.

I couldn't keep up.

I was poor.

I was super broke.

Another thing about academia doesn't look at adult students.

So you're like, literally, I used to work a job.

Now I have to be in school full time because they didn't have online back in 2013.

Now everything is online.

I could have done it at home.

I would have been perfect, but I had to be on campus from eight in the morning until 6 p.m.

every day.

So trying to juggle that and not working.

And I just started to be like, I can't keep up.

When I was studying slave narratives and reading what was going on in their bodies, and I just said, I wonder what it would feel like if they could have rested.

I thought to myself, man, if they even had a moment during those 20 hours of working, what could it have felt like?

Well, I'll try.

So I just started experimenting on my own body.

It was just me really being at the point of where I'm going to die if I keep up with this pace.

I'm physically not going to feel well.

If I fail out, I'll just fail out.

I really got to let the the chips fall where they may moment.

I hope no one gets there because it's not a pretty place.

I hope that we can start the moment of like working before that.

But if I fail out of school because I'm sleeping class, so be it.

I trust myself.

If I can't get this together, I trust myself.

I just had to deeply trust myself, my ancestors, and what I could trickster and maneuver and be, you know, in and figure out and be very subversive.

So it was an experiment.

I thought I never knew it would actually work.

I didn't care if it failed.

I was okay with that.

I just knew I was going to lay down.

And so I just started napping everywhere.

And I think I did that immediately, I felt better.

I was like, oh, I can make it to class today.

I feel like I can do it.

I was just, it was like a day-by-day thing.

And it just kept going.

It kept going.

Things started to make sense.

Dreams started to happen.

My brain started to rest.

I was getting better grades.

I started to have dreams about my grandmother coming to me.

She's an ancestor now.

She She was laying me down to take naps with her while I was dreaming.

And it was just like these magical things.

I was taking naps on the couch, waking up with the book on my chest from reading, waking up and going to take a test and getting A's on it.

I was like, I didn't even finish reading that, but maybe osmosis work.

I don't know, like the brain, whatever's happening, brain level.

I get that.

Scientific wise, I'm understanding neuroscience in so many ways that you need that moment.

And I think it was just a let the chips fall where they may moment.

And I just use everything that I had from all that past.

And I just said, I'll experiment.

And being an artist, I'm not afraid to do that.

That's why I want to be an artist because artists aren't afraid to experiment.

They aren't afraid to try things.

They aren't afraid to see what could work.

They actually get joy from that.

They actually feel most activated when they're experimenting.

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So Pod Squad, let's review what just happened.

Tricia went seeking God and found grind culture even in

the seminary, right?

She went in seeking peace and clarity and beauty of God and instead found grind culture even in

that realm.

That's terrible.

And then decided, wait a minute, what if instead of trusting this outer structure that's telling me I have to keep hustling, what if instead of that I go inside and I trust this yearning and longing inside of me that is saying, I need to rest.

I need to rest.

Because connecting that with ancestors, tell us about what you used to see your grandmother do in her chair.

She would rest her eyes every single day.

She worked two jobs.

She was raising eight children and dozens and dozens and dozens of grandchildren.

She was suffering from PTSD, you know, deeply, poverty deep.

And so she, in between jobs, with her uniform still on from the one job, about to go to the next one, she would sit on her couch and close her eyes and rest her eyes for 30 minutes to an hour every day.

It could be babies jumping off of tables, running in and out of the house.

She held space like a

silent little force there on that couch and just closed her eyes.

And she told me she was resting her eyes.

She wasn't sleeping.

I thought she was sleep.

She said, every shut eye ain't sleep.

I'm resting my eyes.

I'm listening.

She would say, I'm listening to God.

Sometimes she would just say, I'm listening to the universe.

But this listening, like what was, what was the downloads that were happening what was she hearing what was helping her to be able to make space and make a way for herself in a world that really wanted to crush her and didn't love her this black woman refugee from Mississippi, Jim Crotera, she left to come to Chicago.

And so I uplift the people during the Great Migration, the millions who migrated from the South and went to the North, to the West, as the ultimate tricksters, as the ultimate escape artist.

My grandmother was a deep escape artist, literally, you know, getting on a bus and traveling from Mississippi up to Chicago, knew one person, an aunt who had went before, didn't have a job, didn't know anybody there, didn't want to leave Mississippi.

She told me, she was like, I love Mississippi.

I had a farm there.

That's my home.

I loved it.

But when you're watching lynchings happening, when you're under the terror of this Jim Crow, deep, deep racial terror.

what is the choice?

And so she decided to leave.

Many stay.

And I'm also grateful for the ones who decided to become escape artists and tricksters right in the South.

But millions and millions left.

Like that's the largest mass, you know, escape of people in our history in the United States.

And so my grandmother was one of those magicians, you know.

And so she landed in Chicago and.

and she rested and she gardened and she prayed and she made a way to raise these eight children and grandchildren and still reclaim her body as her own.

Like she held space for that.

What a beautiful model, I think.

And since

grind culture, capitalism, racism,

all of the isms are all made of lies.

If we do not

find that magical place, if we do not become escape artists, if we do not return to

whatever we call it, God, inner self,

inside, we will never hear the truth.

Because if we stay outward all the time, now, what is so beautiful about, and especially in your new work, oh God, journal, this can be perceived as a binary.

Like, what do you mean?

I don't have time to take a nap.

What do you mean?

I got, I can't work, not work.

I either work or don't work.

I either nap or don't nap.

I either, and this is not pod squad.

This is not what Tricia is talking about.

Tricia is an effing genius.

Tricia just spoke at the Nobel,

I don't know, party.

What the hell was that?

Okay.

Tricia knows this is not a binary.

What Tricia is talking about is while we are in this world, while we are stuck inside this world, how do we find the magic portal each day just enough to have magic in our lives?

Okay.

Tricia, the more

I think about you and this trickster energy that people, artists, I mean, of course you want artists to be your first thing because in all of those other categories, theologian, those are all structural.

Artist is the only one that's totally trickster, that's totally individual.

I see it everywhere now, Tricia.

I see the trickster energy.

Good.

In

so many different places, people

really.

Can you explain trickster energy?

Yeah.

Tell me who you're seeing.

Like, let's get, let's get into this.

Yeah, but that's a good point, Tricia.

For people who have not yet read We Will Rest.

Yes.

Tell us what the trickster energy is.

And I'm going to set you up with two of your pages to introduce you introducing trickster.

Okay.

Yeah.

I am the trickster assigned as the debt collector by my ancestors.

resting to reclaim the dream space stolen.

Pay up.

And I am the trickster, the one who squinted her eyes, cocked her head, recognized the lies, peeped the scam.

Who's a trickster?

What's a trickster?

What are we escaping from?

The way I love to think about a trickster is they come out of this ancient tales and fables and myths.

You see them in many cultures, African tricksters, and you see them in African-American cultures.

Like this, these have been myths and legends and ancient stories and tales have been told for thousands and thousands of years.

This idea of this person who was resourceful.

You know, I think about Anansi, the spider, and the African trickster, these African tales.

Like, I think about Brayer Rabbit, you know, when you think about African-American tales that you heard these stories as young children, this resistance in the face of oppression, these trickster values that are like shapeshifters.

They're like using their intelligence to disrupt, to be mischievous.

They're like really outcasts.

They're like messengers.

In a lot of of ways, I think about the idea of a trickster being someone who saw what was going on, peeped it, but didn't immediately say that.

They held that inside to be able to start using it.

You know, I think about Harriet Tubman on the Underground Railroad and all the people on the Underground Railroad.

I uplift my favorite trickster of all time in this book.

Henry Box Brown.

When this book came to be, my editor was like, you thinking about writing a new book?

What are we thinking about with the new book?

What are you thinking?

I was like, I don't know exactly what I'm thinking, but I have to talk about Henry Box Brown.

A lot of people have never heard of this, this beautiful trickster, this man who mailed himself in a box.

Every time I say it, I just can't even understand.

Like he mailed himself in a box for 27 hours.

It mailed himself inside of a box.

to an abolitionist office in Philadelphia, from Virginia.

And then I found out later, I've been really researching him that he then went on, once he came out of the box and was in Philadelphia, to become a magician, a real life magician, a performance artist, a theater maker who toured all over Canada in these different personas and created like real magic and like almost like a Houdini type magician figure.

I was like, I don't know what the book is going to be about.

We have to talk about this man.

Like, this is the ultimate trickster to me.

I think about these people who like are questioning authority.

They're finding whatever they can.

They're using the inner power and humanness in them to say, wait a minute, there's something that I see that's happening.

They always are disrupting things that are toxic.

It's always they're pushing back against things, these values that they disapprove of, these values that everyone in the culture loves.

What they're saying that value is wrong, you know, and so.

For me, the trickster, the whole NAT ministry itself is a trickster experiment from everything that I thought about when I thought about the NAT ministry.

People think the NAT ministry just came.

I just wanted to be online being cute and fun.

Like I literally planned out what I was going to roll out when I thought about the NAP ministry.

The idea that I'm a NAP bishop.

That alone is just ridiculous.

You know, I'm this black woman who named herself a bishop, this bishop of rash.

You know, I used to have a costume where I would wear this bishop outfit and I would walk in with on a bed and, you know, this whole performance art idea of bringing people in.

I wanted them to say, oh, there's this woman who's calling herself a bishop.

She's talking about lay down.

and as soon as i got them as soon as they was like this sounds cute i'll come and get a pillow and i just started going crazy about capitalism let's call everybody an agent of white supremacy you need to you know you i just started just like laying in on slavery and just all of the dark things that no one wants to talk about but i pulled them in with here's some lavender oil

I was spraying lavender oil with people at events and I was putting them on pillows and then they would wake up from the event like, oh, how do you feel?

Like, oh my gosh, I haven't had a nap like that.

And I haven't napped in 10 years.

like oh yeah do you know why you haven't napped in 10 years capitalism and i would just go on for 45 minutes about the history of capitalism and white supremacy and why we got to get free like i do this all the time i get booked by lots of people from corporations who want me to come and talk about burnout would you come and talk about burnout yeah of course

They are not wise.

Oh, the reason burnout exists because you're exploiting your work.

Exactly.

There's no such thing as burnout.

And they're like, that wasn't what you put in the outline, you know?

Like,

it's like, I want to use this as a way to bring people in and then educate

people to begin to open up.

They have to feel what it feels like to have been manipulated by a system.

And they only do that by actually resting their bodies.

And so the idea of putting somatics with education, the idea of community rest events with like actual talk backs, nap talk where people can talk about what happened, the idea of looking at dreaming and looking at at daydreaming and as also a form of resistance bringing people in so that we can begin to open them up and i think napping and resting is the ultimate way to do that it's the ultimate way to get people to see for their own selves.

I want people to see for their own selves.

I don't want people to have to think I'm their leader.

See for your own self.

Your body is telling you, your body knows, your body's screaming that this is an assault that's happening on you.

If you could just listen, the way is already there for you.

And so that's what I wanted.

I wanted them to think think they had a leader and a bishop, but then the bishop is just like, I am not the leader of this.

Your body is the leader.

So let me give you some examples of trickster energy that I have witnessed since

being steeped in your work.

Tell me.

Well,

we have a kid who's been on the path of all the fancy education and all the things.

Okay.

Okay.

was talking to him recently and he said, I think I want to,

for a long while, after I graduate, work at a coffee shop.

Okay.

And I said, okay, tell me more.

And he said, I think I want to find a way

where my body can do good service work, but my mind is still mine.

He said, I don't want to rent my mind out.

I don't want to rent my mind out to some company, to some whatever, to someone.

I want to have my mind be mine.

I want to go through my day doing service with my body, but I want in my mind to be able to be, he's a writer, to be creating, to be dreaming, to be imagining all day long.

I want my mind to stay my own.

That's good.

That's some jumpster energy.

Recently, we had Jillian Anderson on the podcast.

She talked about how she and her husband, at the end of a day, will get under the duvet and it'll just be the two of them under there.

And then she'll just start cackling with joy.

And what is that?

Under the duvet is the only place together where they're not in the talons of somebody who is bossing them around.

Yeah, it's a protected space.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I have a friend who is what you would think of as famous and productive and

bossed around a lot.

And she has decided she will only take direction from the voice that speaks to her first thing in the morning, which she calls God.

And she will only do what that voice tells her during the day and nothing else, no matter who else tells her what's important.

Love it.

That's radical.

That's so radical because, oh, I love it.

Mine are a little bit simpler, which is Tricia.

I love a simple.

I go to my yoga class to just sit and breathe.

And everyone starts doing hard things.

And I feel pressured to do the hard things they're doing.

Right, right.

But because I don't want to look stupid.

But then I remember I am there as a trickster for my magic.

And I do not do what they tell me.

I just sit there and do easy things.

You lay on that mat and do stay in child's pose for the whole time.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

I feel like that's trickster energy, right?

It is.

It's really the energy that's associated with just

doing what you feel is necessary for your survival and success, not listening to what the values of the dominant culture, what the community is saying to you.

Like the dominant culture is saying, keep going, don't listen to your body, push, burn the midnight oil.

If you burn out, that's fine.

And then for us to say, no, I'm going to say no to that.

That is deep, deep energy of escape.

It's like you are an escape artist, you're an artist, a person who's beginning to understand you can create your path for escape, you can do that on your own in your own little small ways.

Like, I love indigenous and cultures always talk about these ideas of temporary spaces of joy and freedom.

We understand them to be temporary because we aren't foolish.

We see what we're in, we see that we're living in empire, you know, that this is all around us.

We don't have to wait for empire to begin to change its mind.

People always ask, you know, just on a panel, they were like, what do we do while capitalism is still blazing around us?

Do we just have to wait for capitalism to fall before we can get our rest?

I said, wait.

What?

Wait for what?

Like, I'm not waiting for nothing.

Capitalism may never fall in my lifetime, but that doesn't mean I'm not now in the moment with the life that I have right now, finding ways to disrupt it.

My work is just simply a disruption.

I'm not attempting in any way to try to like think that this is the end all be all.

It is simply a disruption.

And a disruption is so powerful.

That's what a trickster energy is.

It's an energy of disruption.

It's my ancestors slowing down working when they were in those cotton fields.

Like there's these work slowdowns they will do where they will just tell other people secretly, today we're just going to all slow down working.

We ain't going to go as fast.

You know, meet me over here behind this barn.

And we're going to, you know, come up with a way where we're going to like go.

see if we can escape the underground railroad the fact that it's an underground railroad like it's so brilliant to me that these different posts that they were finding, Harriet Tubman, reading the stars, reading astronomy to be able to know which way was the right way.

Like the cover of the book is actually the big difference in the North Star.

It's all about follow the stars, follow the light.

I dedicate the book to my son, to Harriet Tubman, to other tricksters.

who see themselves as more powerful than the systems.

If you just follow the light, whatever that light may be, you know, the inside light in your heart.

My ancestors following the literal lights of these stars to know that this was way north.

This is how we get to Philadelphia.

This is how we get to Canada.

This is how we get the hell up out of here.

You know, this is how we get our freedom.

How do we follow the light in ourselves when it's been so dimmed by the world around us telling us these lies, telling us we aren't enough?

I think the idea of enoughness is like just key to this work.

Many people say, no one's ever told me that I'm enough.

Like in their entire lives, adults.

Like, I always think that I have to do more, be better, keep pushing.

And we're killing ourselves with this unattainable idea of enoughness.

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I just wanted to ask a question because I think a lot of folks who are listening to this right now are probably wondering the same thing I am.

Tell me.

I have too much hustle in me for sure.

And I am definitely trying to figure out how to kind of escape the hustle culture that I have

labeled as my survival.

I have labeled it as my survival.

And Glenn and Tricia, you guys were talking a little bit earlier about trusting yourself.

And I think one of the issues I'm feeling right now is that I think that there's safety in letting somebody else decide in the hustle culture.

So I guess my question is, are there any kind of steps that I can take as like a beginner of how to trust myself in the beginning phases of trying to get outside of hustle culture and capitalism?

Yes.

When I think about trusting yourself, like this is something I've been trying to teach my son, you know, from a very young age.

I keep saying to him, this idea of intuition.

He's like, mommy, what's intuition?

You know, what does that mean?

And I was like, it just means this idea of what's the kind of the first things that you hear just listening and being able to say, even if you don't listen to it, but you just acknowledge that you, I heard it.

And I'm going to go it other way.

You know, I heard that.

I should, I need to calm.

I need to slow it down.

I need to stop.

I heard it.

Okay.

You don't have to immediately follow it, but just, I think the more that you could begin to say to it, I hear you.

Okay.

And right now I'm just not ready to kind of follow what you're saying, but I do hear you.

I think that allows for it to begin to almost strengthen itself.

You know, it needs to grow a little bit more.

It's like, I hear you.

I'm feeding you a little bit of water.

I hear you.

But I'm still finna go and do what I want to do.

I'm going to still, I tell it to my son, I said, you can listen and it's going to say something.

You can ignore it.

And that's fine.

But I want you to acknowledge it.

It wants to be acknowledged.

It wants to be like, yeah.

I think the intuition to me is the Holy Spirit, this guide in your life that's trying to guide you and tell you right or wrong but i'm at a point now where if i don't listen to it i just expect something to just fall apart you know it just happened to me i just was like yeah i don't i said everything kept telling me that girl don't do that i was like nah i want to do this because i feel like i want to do it and then it just automatically just started

every day it was like another block for i would get a call like oh that fell apart oh it kept it just kept it was literally three four times in a row kept falling apart and i finally acknowledged it was like it fell apart and things do sometimes fall apart, but I acknowledge the falling apartness of it and saw it as a lesson.

I think some people hear their intuition and don't acknowledge.

They just say, they don't even think it exists.

They don't even feel like it's there.

They just keep going on their own understanding of things, on their own hustle, on their own survival methods that they've learned.

because of whatever in their life, the trauma, how they were raised, their lifestyle, their childhood, whatever it was that had you to be like, I have to hustle to survive, which is real talk.

It's real.

Like, I understand the idea.

It's very scary to not listen to that because for so many, it is a true thing.

I tell that to people all the time.

I'm not out here telling you thinking that poverty isn't a real thing and straight up being out here without anything is not real in a culture that we live in.

It almost pushes you to the point where you have to feel like you have to keep going.

If I stop, I'll be homeless.

I won't have money.

I'll die.

No one else will support me.

The community is not here.

Like we're in a place right now.

We are so individualized and trained that way that we believe that.

And it's true.

It could possibly be true.

But I just want people to acknowledge that the intuition is even saying anything to you.

Just to be like, I hear you.

I want to come back and ask, is that helpful to you?

Yeah, I do take a nap every day.

So I've participated a lot in this notion.

Nice.

However,

I am starting to think about what a quote-unquote retirement life would look like.

How are you going to finish?

Yeah.

And it's.

hard to extract myself from income earning because it's just like such a lifeline, right?

Of course.

For me and for my family.

And I'm having quite a bit of trouble with the idea of not earning income any longer.

That's something that brings me quite a bit of stress.

And yet there's something that's also still calling me to it.

And I can't figure out which to listen to.

It's like, yes, this for sure.

And also I'm scared.

I understand that.

Yeah.

We opened up talking about the binary.

I talked about that in the first book.

I said, people, when when I talked to them about this work, they was like, that sounds so sweet, Tricia.

And this is what they'll say to me.

It was like, that sounds good, girl, but I got to work to eat.

I'm like, oh my God, I did not say don't work.

So I want you to eat.

I want you to like really have a good life.

That's not what I'm saying.

But because we've been trained on a binary, it doesn't have to be that way.

Like, I want to open people up to the idea of flexibility and this nuanced thinking that 10 things can be true at the same time, you know, or infinite things can be true at the same time and there's no tension around it.

There's no controversy.

It takes a while.

It takes deep healing work to really center into that.

I'm not there because I still catch myself on the binary a lot of times because we've been trained that way.

This is the curriculum we got from the time we were born.

From the time you were a baby, your parents, whatever they were on, they taught this, the schools, religion, everything in your life got you to now to where you're like, I could never think about, you know, thinking in a different way.

But yeah, it isn't the idea of either or.

It's like all those things.

And I want people to to be scared.

I want people to say, I'm frightened.

I was terrified of all of this.

I was terrified of the idea of people thinking like, well, how am I going to take a nap, girl, when I got to like, I'm in poverty.

I come from a legacy of poverty.

I'm the first person in my entire family to go to college.

So

I feel like it's even a richer for me as a black woman.

coming from a legacy of enslavement.

My, you know, share crawfords, I had answers who were enslaved on plantations to be telling people to go lay down.

Like, I'm going to lay down.

They're like, who do you think you are?

You know, like, lay down.

Like, your whole entire family built the whole legacy of this world.

And so I understand the scariness.

And I think to me, it's the idea of pushing back by deepening to our intuition, by deepening to the light, just like acknowledging it, letting it grow and letting us be in community, you know, with each other in that.

And I think that this work is opening up our ideas around what it means to slow down and what that looks like in everyone's life.

It's going to be different for everyone.

It's different, but it's the same.

What I think is so interesting about your work is that there's some kind of exchange like this, where like what Abby just said, like, what if I can't do that?

I can't, and it becomes very intellectualized.

And we can get into that spinning.

We will never win there because you're right.

In that brain space, which is all your conditioning, you can't beat capitalism.

You can't ever have enough.

You're right.

You can't.

Never.

Yeah.

But there's another place to go is what you're you're saying

your brain will never convince you that you can stop but there's another place you can go and it reminds me very much of in spiritual traditions when jesus just keeps saying okay just taste and see yes i'm not arguing anymore yeah just you gotta see yeah just taste and see and then i won't have to argue with you anymore because if you taste this

it will change who you are and yes that's why tricia invites us to this thing take a nap do the thing and then actually doesn't have to argue with us anymore.

Because my experience is

when I find these third magical places, which I am more and more committed to, as Abby knows, every single day.

Yes, even when it means I say no to a million other things that any sane person would be saying yes to or doing,

there is some magic there

that

changes who we are cellularly.

It makes me

less useful to capitalism,

but more likely to save the world,

more likely to feel deeply connected to other human beings.

The world won't allow us to experience that connectedness because it needs us to be okay with killing each other, to be okay with not caring about each other, to be okay with getting ours and not in this magical place.

There is something that happens that connects me so deeply to that I can no longer be

violently careless.

Yeah.

There is something that's happening where she is inviting us to.

And when we say there's a binary, I can't do it.

Whenever I tell myself that, I think of the story you tell about Harriet Tubman and I say, Glenn and Doyle,

I need you to decide if what you are saying, Glenn and Doyle, is that your job is more important and stressful than Harriet Tubman's.

Right.

Right.

While the bloodhounds are running after her.

You can't rest today on a random Tuesday because you have too many emails, but Harriet Tubman sat down and rested

while the blood hands were after her.

Yeah, it's like, it's like when you deepen into the history, it's almost like the choice has to be made.

Like you got to start making some real, like my son would say, some real gangster decisions.

Like you got to really start deepening to the idea.

What am I going to choose?

Who do I want to be?

What do I want my heart and soul to feel like?

What do I want?

Like, and I love what you said about capitalism.

Well, you'll never be able to get out of your mind thinking about that.

Like, don't stay there.

People People are always here.

We got to get into our heart, into our body.

That's why this work could have never been possible without the collective napping experiences.

That is the work.

The work isn't the IG page.

It's not the books.

The work is me rolling out the yoga mats, the blankets, the pillows.

When I was.

tired and didn't have $25.

I was just rolling them out, borrowing yoga mats from people around me and my mom and pillows and just inviting people to come rest with me in Atlanta and these little local free spaces.

And people were coming.

Sometimes it would be one person.

Sometimes it would be 10.

10 and they would just lay down they will all go to sleep and they will all wake up in tears i've never did an event i've done thousands someone didn't wake up in tears bawling because that is the somatic work that is the spiritual work you got to taste and see this you have to lay down with us waking up having dreams people having the same dreams like this portal that rest provides it is a literal portal so the more we go there the more we're going to wake up the more we can allow ourselves that freedom this this moment of freedom dream and i love daydream i love slowing down in any way possible that allows that intuition that voice to come together and so the work really is these collective rest events and i want people even if they can't ever come to an event that they do these in their homes that they have home nap events you know that people are replicating this work all over the world you know i get videos and links from people all over who are doing rest events out at parks doing it at home, yoga studios.

Like it's, they're happening all over the world.

And so when people wake up, they're like, I haven't taken a nap ever in my life.

The last time I took a nap was when I was in preschool, when they have preschool nap time,

you know, no one has had a collective moment where they can rest and feel care with each other.

This, this moment of care, this deep community care of someone laying next to you, breathing and sleeping.

That is the work.

I'll never stop doing that.

I'm going on my book tour coming up in November for my new book, We Will Rest.

And I'm going to be doing collective daydreaming activations with live musicians and sound healers who who are going to be coming with music and we're going to be together.

People need to feel what is happening because when you come from that, when you feel that, that's the radical work.

That's the trickster work to bring people together in a world that is so divided to lay their eyes and close their self and feel a moment of deep care.

You don't need to go to a retreat center.

You don't need to pay thousands of dollars.

I'm anti all of the retreats.

I don't like, I see it so much online.

I want to say right now, do not stop it.

This is not to make capitalism and consumerism and the tourism industry more rich.

Close your eyes right now in this chair, like my grandmother, who was sitting on her couch.

Lay down in your bed, go to a neighbor's house, go in the backyard and put some camping tents out, invite people over.

Like bring people together to experience what it feels like to be cared for, to experience what it feels like to be a trickster, to lay your eyes and close your eyes on capitalism's clock.

is the ultimate escape.

Like to say, you know what, I could be doing an email right now, but instead I'm napping with my friend right here.

We're going to intentionally rest together.

That to me is the ultimate radical form of protest.

And I want people to see it just as being that simple and that powerful that we don't need all this extras.

You know, when I always say, I'm nervous about something, I feel afraid of this because you care.

You care about your life.

You care about your legacy.

You care about, you know, your living and who you can share your life with.

Of course you care.

But capitalism doesn't care about you at all.

It hates your guts.

White supremacy hates you.

Patriarchy hates hates you, it doesn't care about you.

So, who are you going to care more for?

Who gets to the deepness of that more?

I feel like I want to give a little bit more to myself and my community than to the system.

And so, if I can shift that a little bit, even if it could just happen a little, I don't need it to be the full understanding.

I need to just to shift.

I need people to cock their heads.

It's a veil lifted, and that's enough for me.

That really is.

If one person cocked that head and said, You know what?

I'm gonna rest my eyes.

I know I'm, I know I'm better than what the systems have told me.

I know that I don't belong to to them.

I know that my body belongs to me.

That

if they can do that, that's enough for me.

That's all I need, really.

That's all I need one trickster to join me.

I need one escape artist with me on that, and that's enough.

It's one is enough.

And the third place, the napping place, the trickster energy,

for me, probably because of my nervous system, it's not a nap, actually.

And maybe it will be eventually.

But for me, it's when I stop and turn all the lights out and breathe consciously.

I just breathe consciously, pay attention to my breath.

I feel like no one I've ever explained this to understands what I'm trying to say, but I know that you will, is that

I paint now and

what is true about my painting, and I don't mean this in a self-deprecating way.

I'm just saying it's not good.

It's not like anything that anyone will ever be like, wow, you should take that widely.

And

what is important about that to me is that is one of the reasons why it feels safe to me, because so many things about

artistry can be quickly hijacked by capitalism.

There's this story in this book I love by Jenny O'Dell, which reminds me of a different version of your work.

But there's this tree that was in Oakland, and when the foresters came and wiped out all the trees in the area, and it was so tragic, but there was this one tree that was left because it was so crooked that it couldn't be used as a material to build something else.

And so, the inherent flaw of the tree and its uselessness to the loggers is what made it survive.

And my painting is useless to the loggers.

And that's what makes it feel safe to me.

No one is ever going to take it.

It is just for me.

And so that is trickster energy.

Become useless.

People need to know that you don't have to be in service to a system like this, a system that hates you.

You can begin the trickster energy to begin to deepen yourself when you're almost away from, when you're so useless that you're not even of service to it.

I don't want to be in service to it.

I'm a part of it because I'm in it.

I live here.

I have to eat.

I have to pay bills, but I want to find other opportunities and spiritual ways that I can disconnect from that energy.

And you do that by being in community.

Capitalism doesn't want us to like care for each other.

That's why my dad, as a union organizer, was doing a lot of his work secretly.

You know, he was in the house doing secret union meetings.

My mother would be in the back cooking for everybody who was there.

They were secretly working on how they were going to go up against these huge corporations that were treating their employers like nothing.

And so I understood the idea of underground and secret.

My dad would be like, We can't tell nobody about this.

The brothers are coming over tonight.

He was working with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.

So Electricians in Chicago.

He was one of the union captains there.

And they will always be thinking of ways to go underground and trick.

And how can we come from different ways and my mother back there feeding and I'm in the room listening like what are they up to you know making their signs and who was going to help this person if they lost their job who will be able to help pay their rent you know like they actually work together around this idea we might lose our jobs but we're gonna like no one is gonna go across that line because we're union strong and employees matter and so this idea of deep community of seeing what other people need and how we can help each other we won't make it without that Doing this alone and just trying to like figure this out on your alone is just more of the same.

Like it has to be done in deep community.

If I fall, there needs to be a soft space available to me.

And I want my work to really feel like a soft space to land that you feel like you're not being unreasonable.

You know, that's why I really wrote the new book.

I wrote this new book so that people don't feel like they're being unreasonable.

I want you to be like, you're not being unreasonable, that you're exhausted and you're tired, that you want to take a nap.

That's not an unreasonable thing.

It's okay that you feel that way.

So yeah.

It's also, I hate when we have to end with Trisha.

The new book also has the trickster energy on every page.

Yes.

Like it feels like the medium of it is the thing.

And

so it unlocks it in a way that regular prose can't.

Can I do?

Right.

And I appreciate that so much.

The art, the art drawing,

the different

page feels like it.

Yeah.

I love this drawing of this woman in flight.

Well, you know what that drawing is?

Your work, and it's resurrection.

Your work is, to me, is all about resurrection.

It's about, yes, we are in this world where we are told we have to earn a living.

Think about that.

But there is a part of us that we get to resurrect that is our humanity, that is magic, and we can visit it each day.

Yes.

Mostly when we find any minute where we are useless.

Yeah.

Yes.

Find a time to be useless.

And I'm really wanting to get people more radicalized and more deep into the idea that no one's going to do this for you, that you don't have to wait, that you can close your damn eyes right now, that you can, you know, be in community with other people.

And that the idea of escape really is a spiritual practice.

I want people to lean into the idea of the spirit like working within us.

We can't do this by ourselves by just trying to figure it out with our little exhausted, tired brains.

You know, our brains are so fragile.

I just came from a science conference two weeks ago and I was blown away by the neuroscience of what's happening to our brain when we don't sleep.

We're literally brain damaging our brains to the point we can't even think straight because of lack of chronic sleep restriction, which is literally not even a long time.

It's five days without more than five hours of sleep a day.

So if you sleep less than five hours every day for a total of five days in a row, your brain is already showing signs of deep damage.

So much is happening to our brains.

We don't rest.

Like the sleep science stuff really blew me away.

And so when I heard that, I was like, wow, no wonder we're like this, you know, no wonder we're so like exhausted and mental health crisis is so rich and we're so disconnected from our bodies because to not sleep really puts us in a very precarious situation biologically in so many ways.

But spiritually, I think it's even worse.

Okay.

And next time.

Next time, I'm going to

beg you to come back.

And then I want to discuss what happens next because

when you employ a lot of trickster energy into your life,

and you start to see

that everything is just the fucking hunger games and you are in the arena,

and then you start to change a little bit, and then you start to feel very lonely because you don't have anyone to play with you because everyone's still in the hunger games.

That's that's what I'm thinking about for my next book, really deepen into the idea of relationships.

Yes,

with this platonic family, romantic community, like what is left behind when we have a hunger games mentality around all the exhausted ones.

Yeah.

It's good.

How do the tricksters do when they're together?

Like, what does a community of tricksters look like?

Because what you said before we started recording that, I'm like, wow, you said, you know, I, I don't know.

I've been thinking about just going to volunteer at the local.

I think you said that.

Say a citizen's home.

Yeah, yeah, the retirement center.

And I told Abby recently, the only thing I can think of that makes sense now is I think I'm just going to call the local elementary school and ask them if they need help with the kids, like reading.

That's what I used to do with my life.

That is literally the only thing that makes sense to me right now.

I know.

They're the ones I want to be around too.

The children and the elders and the animals.

Those are the three people I think are going to help lead the new movement that we're trying to create in our own exhausted brains.

So yeah, I'm really excited about this new book.

I'm so proud of it.

You should.

You should be proud.

It's gorgeous.

Thank you.

If you're being useful, you're being used.

Yes.

That's what's happening.

So if you feel uncomfortable feeling useless, at least you can be like, at least I'm not being used.

Yes.

Okay.

Here's the book.

Rest is Resistance.

This is the first one.

To me, this is like the why.

Why?

And then We Will Rest.

The Art of Escape is the How.

It's like, here's theologian Tricia.

Here's Mystic Trisha.

Okay.

Yes.

Yes.

I love that.

That's a great.

I love that.

Yeah.

You're like, this is hard.

And pods fun.

I think just go get these books and then just talk to us about where you find your trickster energy.

I want to know, I want more trickster energy in my life.

I want more,

I want to find more ways to go to this third place.

I want to know how you do it because I want more of it in my life.

So and Tricia, thanks for being our bishop.

You're, you're, I'm your bishop.

Yeah.

I'm so excited.

I can't wait.

You guys are in LA, right?

Yes, we're in LA.

Okay, I'm going to be coming to LA in 2025.

I'm going to email you guys.

I'm going to see you.

We got to get some lunch or something.

I want to come take a nap.

Come take a nap.

Yes.

I'll host a little nap thing for you.

So I'm really, I'm going to be there already looking at my calendar.

So I'll be out there.

Can you send us those dates?

I would so love to meet you.

Yeah, I would love to meet you.

I love speaking with you guys.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for having me on.

I'm just so grateful.

Out of all the things, I was like, I have to do them again as I'm getting on this publicity wrong.

You know how it is.

Of course, we do know how it is.

Okay, Pod Squad, I'm going to end with this.

When you send Trisha an email, you will get an auto reply that says, basically, it says, I'll get back to you whenever I'm going to get back to you.

But then it says, trust the divine timing of our connection.

Yes.

It does.

Email trickster energies.

It does.

I wish I had that line back when I was dating terrible men.

Trust the divine timing of us never seeing each other again.

Yes, let's trust it.

Let's please trust anything.

Let's trust that.

Okay, pod squad, we love you.

Go get all of Trish's work.

Go forth and be tricksters.

We love you.

Thank you.

We will rest, guys.

Bye.

Bye.

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.