Jen Hatmaker: Marriage, Loneliness & Starting Over

How would you like to feel calmer, think clearer, and sleep better, all in just two minutes?

Meet True Vega Plus, a handheld device that uses gentle vagus nerve stimulation to help calm your body's stress response.

In just two minutes a session, TrueVega helps shift you out of fight-or-flight and into a more relaxed, balanced state.

By naturally supporting your body's nervous system, you can quiet mental chatter, ease anxious feelings, and promote deeper, more restful sleep.

So you wake up feeling refreshed and clear-headed.

There are no pills, no side effects, just safe, clinically backed technology developed from decades of neuromodulation research.

Ready to try it out?

Visit truevega.com and use code WCDHT25 at checkout to receive $25 off your purchase.

Take action today and upgrade to feeling better every day with TrueVega.

Visit truevega.com and use my code WCDHT25 to receive $25 off your purchase.

Feel calmer and sleep better with True Vega.

Hey, everyone.

I've got to tell you about Viori if you haven't heard of them.

You're missing out.

And we love this stuff.

I've been living in this stuff for years.

I recently got the performance jogger from their dream knit collection.

And let me just say, it's hands down the softest, comfiest jogger I've ever worn.

I use them for everything.

Viori is an investment in your happiness.

I promise you.

For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase.

Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viori.com slash hardthings.

That's vuo r i.com slash hard things.

Exclusions apply.

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any U.S.

orders over $75 and free returns.

Go to viori.com slash hardthings and discover the versatility of Viori clothing.

Exclusions apply.

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

Today, we are sharing the first episode we did with our dear friend, the Jen Hatmaker.

So in July 2020, Jen's world imploded.

when she lost her 26-year marriage overnight.

That was a doozy of a time.

I remember it well.

The amazing thing is that since then, Jen has so gloriously rebuilt her life, her dreams, herself, that I started declaring it

the genocance.

In this hour with us, Jen just reaches deep into the pain to share an incredibly beautiful, brave, and honest conversation.

She describes how looking back,

she sees that she knew something was wrong in her relationship well before she knew something was wrong.

Don't we all?

And she talks about the moment she reached out to me to share for the first time, which I will never forget.

In this episode, we discuss why Jen's friends told her she was a, quote, human spotlight and cleanup crew.

in her marriage and the pain of realizing she was powerful in every other role in her life except for wife.

How Jen convinced herself that her marriage was enough, when in reality, she felt like she was in a pot of water that was slowly building to a boil.

And she talks about the common hell we've shared of being lonely inside of a marriage and why we won't be fully honest with ourselves, partners, friends about what we are most afraid of.

This is a doozy and it's illuminating.

And I just loved every minute.

I know you will too.

Thank you, Jen, for trusting us and the world with your heart and story.

Makes a difference.

Enjoy.

Okay, we're going to jump right into we can do hard things today because we today

have one of my favorite hard things doers in all the land.

Her name is Jen Hatmaker, and I'll just tell you that right off the bat because I know everyone's going to get really excited about that.

The crowd goes wild.

And I have known Jen for a long, long time.

And I've always loved Jen, but I was thinking about this quote from both of our friends, Elizabeth Gilbert.

I just asked Abby to grab it for me like five minutes ago.

And it says, the women I love and admire for their strength and grace did not get that way because shit worked out.

They got that way because shit went wrong and they handled it.

They handled it a thousand different ways on a thousand different days, but they handled it.

Those women are my superheroes.

And that is Liz Gilbert.

But today,

she's the best.

We have Jen Hatmaker, who is the New York Times best-selling author of For the Love and Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire, along with 12 other

books.

I don't know what to say.

12.

Okay.

It's ridiculous.

It's a whole bookshelf just of her own books.

Okay.

She hosts the award-winning For the Love podcast, which is so freaking good.

Is the delighted curator of the Jen Hatmaker Book Club.

And only Jen would write the delighted curator.

Okay.

I know that's my price.

Yes.

Even her bio is so Jen.

And she is the leader of a tightly knit online community where she reaches millions of people each week.

Jen is a co-founder of Legacy Collective, a giving organization that grants millions of dollars towards sustainable projects around the world.

She is a mom to five kids, only seven less books that she's written.

Five kids,

math.

Thanks.

And just,

and lives just outside Austin, Texas.

Jen Hatmaker.

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Thanks.

Hello, my darlings.

I'm so happy to see you both.

Yeah.

And Abby, just off camera.

Yeah, she's right here.

Hi, Jen.

I'm sorry.

Do you want to just come in here?

She just is so jealous that she's going to stay in the frame.

Yes.

Abby.

Abby Walmach loves herself.

Some Jen Hatmaker, which I just want to say that I think the first time Jen and Abby met

was

backstage at a Women of Faith conference.

So what I need the world to know is that I brought my lesbian

soccer player

girlfriend

to the most conservative,

evangelical Christian

arena of that.

Arena.

Yes.

Full of evangelical Christians.

And then I stood in the front row and we held hands and kissed and waved our arms to Jesus songs.

Jen, do you remember?

That's right.

That's exactly.

Oh, do I remember?

Do I remember?

I remember.

What were you thinking at that point?

I didn't know what was, I don't think I really understood what I was proposing to that crowd of 40,000 people.

Well,

I was thinking how much I loved you

and

I knew about Abby.

So,

and then, you know, it only takes like about three and a half seconds of meeting Abby.

And it doesn't, I don't care who you are.

You fall hard.

You fall hard.

You fall immediately.

It's irreversible.

It's irrevocable.

I got it immediately.

I got you.

I got y'all.

Cause of course, as you mentioned, our history deeply preceded that.

We met when we were both married to men, other men.

And so I immediately loved Abby.

And I was proud of you.

And I was proud of both of you.

And I was, I felt like in real time, I was watching you like walk into yourself.

And it was like an honor to witness it.

And then.

A couple years later,

I got to watch you walk into yourself.

We have talked previously on this pod in the context of my sister and I's divorces

about how the most obnoxious question a person can ask about that horrific sacred time is, what happened?

Yeah.

Because it's just like, I don't know, simplification, bypassing that like kind of icky curiosity.

So without asking what happened, can you tell us what happened?

Oh, I love it.

Yeah, definitely.

Also, thank you for your

compassion and even just discretion around what it means to tell a hard story like this.

You,

literally, all four of us understand this.

All four of us, unfortunately, understand exactly this.

Yes.

Because there's us in the story, but there's a person that we were married to in the story.

There's a bunch of spawn that we created in the story.

There's in-laws and parents.

It's complex.

Yes, it is.

And to some degree, our connective tendrils go forever.

And so it is complicated to give an accurate retelling, to say nothing of the fact that I have a certain version and it's mine,

which means it's not entirely right.

But it's the one I know, even the one I've crafted a little.

Yes, yeah.

I've polished her up.

But in short, I was married for 26 years

and

I got married.

Every time I say this, I just have like a stab of like horror.

But I got married when I was 19.

And Brandon, my ex-husband, was 21.

We were in college and we had, we were in a kind of a conservative Christian college environment, which is just to say it's a very strange place.

It's a very strange ecosystem in and of itself.

And I just a bunch of little babies get married there.

And that seems normal.

And we have real weddings.

Our parents give us away.

Like, that's a normal thing.

Like, she's 19.

She makes $4.25 at the YMCA.

Go be a wife.

You know what I'm saying?

What the hell?

What the hell are we doing?

So.

I started really young.

I was never really an adult a single day of my life without a man.

I went straight from my dad to a boy.

Um,

so we built a whole life, you know, a whole life.

We were, we grew up together, essentially.

And

we had three kids, and then we adopted two more.

Um, Ben and Remy are our youngest, they're Ethiopian, and we adopted them when they were five and eight, and built kind of this entire hat maker

ethos.

And then in 2020, just after the pandemic started, so that was already, we were just already all flailing around.

And

we

started the divorce process.

And for us, it wasn't like a slow burn.

It wasn't like

a mutual, like we are

devolving or disconnecting, or we've been working and working and we can't get these things resolved.

It wasn't like that.

It was overnight.

It was shock and awe.

It was one day you know something and the next day you know something different.

And there isn't recovery from it.

A lot of people wanted to know, you know, because marriage and family has been the center spoke of my wheel for a very long time.

And so I know people were like, I don't understand why this, we're not now watching a fight for this recovery or we're not now seeing Jen and Brandon, you know, just go to the mat

to resolve this or to repair it.

And the truth is, sometimes that's not an option.

And that was not an option for us.

And so just like that, just like that, it was over.

And then there's some shit that goes on, but it was over.

That was the day it was over.

When I put the marker in the ground, it's July 11th, 2020.

A bunch of stuff.

And then we actually filed and then we actually got divorced, but that was the day.

That was the day that I was on my own in the world.

I didn't know how to be a grown-up.

I certainly didn't know how to single parent.

I didn't know anything.

I had never had a single moment to myself as an adult woman.

And so it was scary.

It was shocking.

It was humiliating.

And there was just a minute there.

I can't honestly hardly remember it.

I was just in such a fog of trauma and grief and fear.

Yeah.

Jen, as you know, Glennon likes to celebrate your transformation in the world as

the Genesance.

That's right.

She's branded it and it's really lovely.

You don't know my insight.

Glennon, I don't know if you've ever watched in my social feeds.

Every time you say that word, everybody piles on underneath it and they're like, I'm going to borrow that.

And I am now in the Lennaissance.

And now I'm in the Janet Assance.

And I'm like, listen,

borrow it from her.

She's offered it to our community.

That's it.

Take it, everyone.

I I wish you could see every time, which may be like 20 times I've written Genesance under your things.

I have to Google how do you spell Renaissance every time.

And then I have to write it out.

And then I have to.

It's one of those.

That's how much I spell it right now.

I feel like if you paid me a million dollars to spell Renaissance, I would get it wrong.

It's impossible.

Even if you've done it many times, even if you've had it with Jen, it's, yeah.

Oh, God.

Anyway, I'm sorry, Amanda.

No,

no, no.

There is not an apology for the Genaissance ever.

And so she's describing this first the pain, then the waiting, then the rising.

And I think when I went through my divorce, when you say a stake in the ground and you kind of say, okay, that was July 11th.

And at first, I always thought the pain was right when I knew I was getting divorced.

And like that started the floodgate of pain.

But

after

I realized, no, the pain actually started well before then.

I just couldn't either see it or recognize it in myself, but there was like a part of me that was grieving

things in my marriage before I even knew I was grieving the loss of my marriage.

So do you

looking back, are you able to see kind of

where the pain was there for you before the implosion of your marriage?

Like, what were you grieving before you knew you were grieving?

It's such a good question.

By the way, please enjoy the train.

You will hear.

I feel like

it's an analogy.

Numerous.

It can't be helped or stopped.

Choo, choo, Jets, come through.

I mean, okay.

Okay.

Happy.

I love this question, and I think it's an important one

because

in my now experience and then what has opened up the floodgates inside my community that I lead, I think this is ubiquitous.

I think women who are losing their marriages can get just a little ways out from it.

And when they're finally able or willing to be honest, they can go backward and say,

I knew, or I thought I knew, or I knew something.

I don't know if you remember this Glennon, but

so July 11th, 2020, but I had your book in hand before it came out.

I had the advanced copy.

This was like January of that year.

So we're six months before anything, before I really, I knew anything that was important for me to know.

I read a very specific sentence

in Untamed.

And it was essentially, I can't remember it exactly, but it was something like,

you gave a litany of things that might possibly be going on in our lives that were really hard to say.

They were embarrassing or they were hard or they were sad or they were shocking and they were carrying these things around, but we were not saying them out loud.

And one of my things was embedded right in the middle of the list.

And I had your book open.

And I just kind of like very quietly, I closed it and I set it down and I sat there quietly for about one one minute and I picked up my phone and I texted you

and I said

something's wrong in my marriage

I didn't understand it at the time because I was only feeling the symptoms I bet I felt them I felt them sure as shit I felt them I was feeling the symptoms and so I was trying to diagnose the problem and I was partially right yeah I was half right

and I said something's wrong nobody knows I don't know how to talk about this I don't know what to do.

I'm trying so hard to fix it.

And I can't fix it.

I can't get it all back in.

And I just need somebody to know it.

And

you immediately texted back because when I'll never get a text back from you if I text you something silly.

Never.

It's like I never sent you a message.

It's like, it's like you don't have a phone.

But if I send you something important, if I send you something serious, you're Johnny on the spot.

And you know what?

I received received this.

Okay.

And I actually respect it.

And you texted me back right away because I had given you what I think the problem was, which you have some history with.

And you sort of began workshopping it with me and what it looks like in a marriage and how I'm not alone in this.

And a lot of women are like biting their fingernails off in their marriages, but they don't know what to do.

And so to your question, Amanda, I did know.

And

I wish I would have been more courageous.

And honestly, I wish I just could have been more honest, even even inside my own marriage.

I cannot imagine some of the suffering and sorrow that I maybe could have avoided if I would have just

told the truth, number one, to myself.

That's, that was the first person I lied to.

Yeah.

Cause I just didn't want to believe any of it.

No.

26 years.

My parents have been married for 50 years.

My in-laws have been married for 50 years.

I'm like, we're going the distance, man.

We have five kids.

Damn.

Like

this, just no, not us.

Right.

And so I just kept thinking, I can fix this.

Like I can, we're going to right the ship somehow.

And,

but if I'd have been more honest, and I think if I would have been more honest with him and said,

we both see this thing that's happening, like what, what can and should we do?

I don't know what would have happened.

At this point, it's speculation.

But I did, I want you to know that I told him

way after the fact, after I'd hit the bottom of the ocean and just drugged myself back up to the surface and we were able to speak and talk and be on a little bit more honest and tender with each other than just like radical disintegration.

I'm like,

I wasn't telling the truth to us and I wish I would have.

And

this was broken.

And I just wouldn't admit it.

So if I wouldn't admit it, I couldn't address it.

And I wouldn't let you address it because that made it true.

And

so we've kind of had that good healing conversation since.

But it's true.

It's hard to admit.

It's lonely.

Like no one's in your marriage except you, you know?

Like something about parenting.

Yeah.

For example, you get to reach sideways for that, you know?

We have each other in that.

And for some reason, that feels more, that feels easier to bring our community.

But in marriage, it is you and it's that person.

Yeah.

And so when things are so, so broken,

it's scary and it's isolating.

And that's the easiest place, at least for me to lie to myself about what's real.

Yeah.

So our dogs, Honey and Hattie, are sweet, spoiled, and insanely picky when it comes to food.

We've tried all kinds of brands over the years.

Some would get a sniff and then completely ignored.

Others, maybe once and never again.

But Ollie, it's a total game changer.

Ollie delivers clean, fresh meals made with human-grade ingredients.

No fillers, no preservatives, just real food.

And the flavors, things like fresh beef with sweet potatoes or fresh turkey with blueberries, I've caught myself thinking, this dog eats better than I do.

Dogs deserve the best, and that means fresh, healthy food.

Head to ollie.com/slash hardthings.

Tell them all about your dog and use code hardthings to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today.

Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box.

So if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back.

That's ollie.com/slash hardthings and enter code hardthings to get 60%

off your first box.

What does the future hold for business?

Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers.

Bull market, bear market.

Rates will rise or fall.

Inflation, up or down.

Can someone please invent a crystal ball?

Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite, the number one AI cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform.

With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth, giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions.

With real-time insights and forecasting, you are peering into the future with actionable data.

When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next.

Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.

I highly recommend it.

Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash hard things.

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hard things.

Netsuite.com slash hard things.

Whether you are working remotely or in office, many of us require collaborating with team members on projects, tasks, and outcomes.

Monday.com is one of our sponsors and a platform that our team at Treat Media has actually used to coordinate our workflow.

It is a platform that helps you from planning to execution, thinks ahead to deadlines, assign owners and actions, and allows you to to see progress as a team.

It actually helps us get some work done.

There is a lot of AI out there, but not a lot actually moves the needle.

Monday.com's Sidekick is different.

It can actually build workflows, spot risks, update the team.

You just say what you need, and you can consider it done.

Sidekick in Monday.com saves so much time.

Using our Sidekick integration, help to update deadlines, brief teammates, reassign tasks, and it even helps us spot risks before they actually become problems.

Stop managing the busy work.

Let Monday Sidekick handle it so you can focus on the real work.

Try Monday Sidekick, AI you'll love to use on monday.com.

Jen, you are so

beautiful.

I mean, just the way you tell your story and the way you honor the other people in the story, but also tell the truth.

I think that was just a service to some people.

I was thinking

we don't tell, like, we are in our marriages, but we are often just us in our marriages.

You know, and so it isn't even

with the partner.

A lot of people, we're not even with our partner.

We're just all

and we don't know where our partner is because if you, because you don't say the thing, because what happens after you say the thing?

That's why we don't say the thing.

Because what are you going to find out you're right?

Who the hell wants to find out they're they're right about that thing?

And like, it's, it's not working, but it's working.

Right.

You are still married until you say the thing.

That's it.

And if you're like me, this like glass half full hope springs eternal type, I'm like.

We're just about to fix this, you know?

Like it's just out of reach.

There's some sort of trickery or like formula we just haven't quite discovered.

And then we're just going to be like back.

Like he'll be back in his own body and mind.

We'll be back in this sort of relational space.

And we'll look back on this and be like, ooh, that little bit was rough.

And so I think there's also this like, just

this hope, maybe, that we hang on to because the truth is, even when divorce is literally the best thing, when it gives you back to yourself, when it returns you to your like highest space and it delivers you to the second half of your life, whole and healthy, and good.

And your partner, for that matter.

Even then, divorce is traumatizing.

Yes, it is.

It just tears some things apart that we've spent our adult life building and putting together.

And so, and it affects so many people.

The rollout of the centrifugal rings of affectation are still going on, frankly, a year and a half later.

And so, I think we know that and just wanting to avoid that level of just

disconnection in all of our family structures makes us just kind of go well you know what i don't know we're still paying our bills that's right like our kids are in school nobody's dropped out yet you know like

I don't know.

I created a version of our marriage in my own mind and convinced myself it was enough.

Same.

And that wasn't fair to either one of us.

It really wasn't.

And so,

I don't know.

Not many people were saying this out loud, which is why, Glennon, when I was kind of reading this in Untamed, I'm like,

God, do I have permission for this?

Like,

do we get to say out loud that even this long time heralded marriage, much admired, much written about, like, much respected?

Do I get to say this is fragmenting?

And I am lost, and he is lost, and we are lost, and we can't find our way back to each other.

And that was, I think, for me, the beginning of the end, probably in a good way, really.

I can say that now.

I can't believe I could ever say that, but I mean it now.

I'm thinking about hope when you're saying this, and it's interesting, this idea of hope.

It's like

sometimes I think our Christian version of hope fucks us up because,

you know, the Buddhist version of hope is like, don't have it, basically.

like hope will like

abandon all ye hope who enter like but it is it's like hope can distract you from the truth it like keeps you from accepting what is and hope is a beautiful thing when it carries you through the truth yeah and and and you match the truth with hope but when you lose when you use hope as a spiritual bypass to what is actually happening in front of you

that's when it screws us over that is the truest thing because you're hoping in an invention.

Yes.

It's not true.

It's made up.

I made up a story about what was actually happening and I made up a story about what could happen.

And neither one of them were ever going to be true.

Ever, ever.

I just wrote myself a little script and went, well, that is sweet.

That is lovely.

I like that story.

It's super hard when you're also a writer.

Yes.

When you

create narratives, you're like, I can do this.

I can make this a love story.

I mean, I think about that all the time.

Yes.

Did I live Love Warrior and then write it?

Because I don't think so.

I think I wrote Love Warrior and then hoped that I would live into that version of the redemption story.

It's so real.

Like, I think I am my own self-help author.

Dangerous freaking territory.

That's so funny.

Totally.

Totally.

Oh my gosh.

Me too.

By the time we got to July 2020, I had told so many lovely stories about my own marriage, which were partially true.

Great.

Absolutely.

And partially was enough for me.

Yes.

I was okay with partial.

I'm like, I will fill in the gaps on partial with my best friends, with my parents, with my siblings, with my kids, with my work, with the women in my community, with my friends that we work alongside of each other.

That will be enough for me.

And so my marriage can be partial and I can still be a happy human lady.

That's true.

The shitty thing about that is it's a little true.

Like, it's not really true.

I'm not really happy, but I could run those traps.

Yes.

Yeah.

And nobody can.

Women like us can.

Nobody just can.

You can't prove that it's not true.

Like it's, you can, can, if I were under a lie detector test, I could still pass.

Like there's part of this that feels true enough to be true.

That's the problem.

But what I'm learning, like what I'm discovering right now is,

at least for me, having been married my entire adult life, I just didn't know what I didn't know.

And so what I'm discovering is that, oh, that was really partial.

Yes.

Now, I had, you know, I was in a slow pot of boiling water.

So that partial space just, it just crept up on me, you know, where all of a sudden, like, if you'd have dropped me into that scenario from 10 years previous, I'd been like, oh shit, what has happened here?

Like

something has derailed.

But because it kind of was a slow coming.

I talked myself into that being a fulfilling life day by day, right?

Month by month, year by year.

And as things continued to fall off, I would backfill them with other healthy relationships or spaces.

And just, I just kind of kept the balance like this, just enough.

Just enough.

I had the capacity to do that forever.

But what I'm experiencing right now in genuine wholeness and completeness, just in and of myself, like in my own soul, in my own life,

I'm stunned.

that I would have chosen to live that way for the rest of my life.

And I am now like grateful.

I'm really grateful to be here.

Did I want to get here the way I got here?

God, no.

And I don't wish that on anybody.

And I, my heart for women who have been in a super similar path is just endless now.

But am I sorry that I'm here?

I'm not.

Yeah.

I'm really not.

I feel like I am,

this is me.

I feel me.

I feel me living.

I feel me alive.

I feel me leading

without editing and without constantly having to shapeshift around somebody else and without having to keep the thing afloat.

And I wouldn't trade it.

There she is.

You said shapeshift.

And that's

what do you mean by shapeshift?

Because I also heard another conversation with you and Jamie Wright.

and Kristen Howerton.

They're your dear friends and they know you and then they as you and then they know they knew you as as wife

and you just said shapeshift and they said you were a human spotlight and a cleanup crew as a wife as a wife

what

can you talk about those things that you can look back and see yourself

as different in that role than as you were as you and what does it mean to be a human spotlight and a cleanup crew and just so you know sister and i talked about this for an hour in terms of our own previous and current, like it just made so much sense to me.

And I feel like people are going to get it in their own way.

I'd like to hear both of your thoughts on that too.

That was really hard to hear from my friends.

And

I heard it earlier.

I heard it before we were divorced.

And I was shocked.

I was shocked because I didn't know that there were two versions of me.

I didn't realize it.

And I certainly didn't know it was observable.

You know, I felt like I was running a pretty clean operation.

You know what I mean?

Because it was my job to keep our best foot forward as a couple.

And I did it.

I thought I was doing it.

I thought I was doing it.

And I thought that when things were like dipping and wobbling and going off the rails, that I was course correcting quickly enough

outward facing so that that was either like, oh, well, that was silly, or we could shrug that off.

Like, that was a weird day.

That was a strange conversation.

Those girls were with me in January, right before I texted you, Glennon, January of 2020.

And that's when they told me that.

We were all together with all couples for four days.

And

they very bravely, and I commend, commend, I commend all friends who love us enough to come to us and say hard things.

Yes.

I commend them.

I can't imagine how hard that was for them to say to me because I didn't ask for their opinion.

It's not like I said, did you guys see me absolutely shrink or no?

Like,

did I just go real small?

Did my light snuff out or was I normal?

You know, I didn't, I didn't give them any rope.

They just came to me and said, we just need to tell you something that we're seeing.

And I was defensive because I was embarrassed

because I'm so strong everywhere in my life.

I'm powerful everywhere in my life in every role except that one.

And

I just didn't know that anybody saw it.

You know, I thought it was internal.

I thought I was just going to carry that inside me and partially make it work forever.

And so

this is what I've learned, what Brene taught me.

So Brene text, Brene called me like in maybe week two, week one or two after DEF CON, you know, one.

And she's,

she told me some things to do.

And when Brene tells you what to do, you do it, right?

You don't get to disobey.

And,

you know, she doesn't come in real gentle either.

She kind of comes in like a wrecking ball.

Like there's no hair petting.

It's not like, this is a real hard time.

She's like, I've got one hour.

I'd like you to sit down and grab a pin.

I'm like,

you will be crying.

You will be rising strong in 15 minutes.

But one of the things she told me, she gave me a list of things that I was going to do and

ways that I was going to survive.

Some of it had to do with my body.

And just, she's like, it's radical self-care time.

And this is no joke.

She's like, don't take this lightly.

But one of the things she told me back to our point here is to get the book codependent no more.

Yes.

Melody Manny.

Many.

Yeah.

We have several copies.

There are like six of them here.

Y'all.

Several.

Y'all.

I'm still furious.

When you come out as a lesbian, they make you read that book.

It's just like part of the

care package you get sent.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the rules of admission to the lesbian.

Actually, this is the book on how to lesbian.

Yes, but it's codependent forevermore, is what we call it

wasn't that book like just a kick in the teeth

i didn't understand codependency i don't know if you guys did i when i hear that word i thought that word meant you are a needy person

like you're fragile and you are you don't have the the the muscle memory to be independent anywhere in your life and that's what i thought that meant and i'm like that's not me no because you what the listeners need to know, if you haven't picked it up for the last 30 minutes,

Jen does not, that is, those are words she would not have related to.

Fragile.

Jen.

Jen handle it hat makeup.

Yes.

Okay.

Right.

I'm like, I mean, fragile.

Just so you know, when you describe Brene,

that is certainly how I feel about you.

You

it's Texas or something.

Maybe,

maybe it is.

You know, maybe it is.

And we're sorry.

The state makes us this way.

You see that we're, it's a race to the bottom,

Texas.

So

we're doing the best we can.

Okay.

Okay.

And you've got a lot of problems to solve.

So the 15 minutes makes sense and rising strong quickly.

And yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what's even worse than having 10,000 symptoms like brain fog, fatigue, hot flashes, anxiety, and no sleep that dramatically alter our sanity and quality of life?

It's having all of those symptoms and being constantly dismissed and undermined and told it's just part of aging, or worse yet, that we're overreacting.

75% of women seeking care for menopause-related issues never get treated at all.

It's exhausting, isolating, and infuriating, and it's unacceptable.

It's time for change.

It's time for MIDI.

MIDI offers expert personalized insurance-covered virtual care for women in midlife.

Their clinicians actually listen.

From hormone therapy to lifestyle coaching, their holistic, data-driven approach is tailored just for you.

And MIDI is the only women's telehealth brand covered by major insurance.

That means real care, really accessible.

Ready to feel your best and write your second act script?

Visit joinmitti.com today to book your personalized insurance-covered virtual visit.

That's joinmitti.com.

MIDI, the care women deserve.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

That's why I think Alma is so cool.

Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience.

You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

And what stands out to me about Alma is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through Alma say their therapist made them feel seen and heard.

You know, I love that.

That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media.

It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress.

Better with people, better with Alma.

Visit helloalma.com/slash hard things to get started and schedule a free consultation today.

That's hello A L M A dot com slash hard things.

On this show, we talk a lot about resilience and what it really means to support one another.

For healthcare and wellness professionals, that's the job, day in and day out.

Nurses, doctors, therapists, the healthcare workers all across the nation, they're the ones who show up for us.

So it's just as important that they feel supported too.

That's why we partnered with FIGS.

For too too long, scrubs were an afterthought and not anymore.

Figs scrubs are thoughtfully designed in innovative fabrics made to meet the demands of the job and look good doing it.

There's a full range of styles and go-to colors, plus limited edition drops that bring a little joy into every day.

So, if you work in healthcare or wellness or love someone who does, these are the scrubs.

Use code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order at wherefigs.com.

That's 15% off at wherefigs.com with code FIGSRX.

As a recovering person, I know a lot about codependency because of recovery.

We learn a lot about it in that.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep, totally.

And that would be the backdrop to what it means to be a human spotlight and what it means to be the cleanup crew, because essentially, the central definition of codependency is that you just do not allow another person to sit in the consequences of his or her choices.

You just won't allow it.

You don't either.

You don't want them to feel the discomfort of it.

You don't want other people to observe what's true.

That would have been closer to me.

You don't want to live with a ticking time bomb.

So you shapeshift around somebody's like volatile personality just to steady the waters, right?

So that you're just not constantly having explosions all around you.

You're basically taking on the

effects of somebody else's choices, and you are crafting an environment around someone else so they don't have to feel their own pain, their own discomfort, their own trauma, their own consequences, or even their own responsibilities.

And then I was like, well, shit.

I took that book and I give it a little toss right across my living room, just a little toss.

I was like,

you don't know me.

You don't know my life.

I did not know I was codependent.

I thought I was just being a good person,

right?

I thought I was just being

helpful.

I thought I was just being in service to another person.

Or

I did not realize how much I stunted our own growth.

Not just mine, but his

and ours.

And had I let the chips fall where they were supposed to fall all along who knows what we could have solved right like had consequences worked their magical effect because they do one way or another

um who knows how we could have grown or what would have been possible for him inside his own like soul and his own trauma um or how we could have learned to relate to one another in healthy mature adult ways um as two whole people not two half people trying to make one whole right um and so that was really hard to learn.

And I took that to my counselor and she was like, this is your work.

She's like, I promise you, this is not Brandon's fault.

It's not.

She's like, these are your choices.

You made these choices one by one because you preferred a steady, stable environment over whatever was true.

And if you don't deal with these behaviors and responses, you will 100% walk them into your next relationship.

Wow.

And she's like, you're probably already behaving this way with your kids.

I'm like, you're mean.

Like, I'm paying you $150 an hour to not talk to me like that.

What if I've been trained by Brene Brown or something?

No, seriously.

I'm like, I'm hurting.

Sure enough, when I decided to like, put that overlay over parenting, I was like, oh no.

Yes.

Oh, nuts.

And so that's been a lot of my personal work for the last year and a half is figuring out how to let other human people just be human people all the way.

Good, bad, hard, making good choices, making terrible choices, because they're a person and that's their life.

That's right.

And it's not my life.

And so I am only, I'm at about the 54% mark on this, you guys.

If you want to grade, I would still give it a kind of an F minus.

But I've pulled up from zero.

So we're going to call it progress.

We'll take it.

What is your experience here with codependency inside these relationships?

Like specifically, because they manifest there differently than I think they do with our work partners or with even our kids or our parents.

But inside like a marriage,

oh, Lord, that can sink a ship.

Yeah.

I have a lens when I think about this that is just a question.

I don't know if this is true or not, but

I, I found these journals.

I can't believe I'm about to admit this out loud.

Oh, I know.

Oh my God.

I know.

I found these journals from like 15 years ago or something.

I don't know.

And they were, I was writing to myself,

to God, I guess.

But I was saying things like, dear God, please help me let Craig be the spiritual leader of my family.

Please help me be less loud.

Please help me be less, less, less, less.

Okay.

Like I'm sweating again every pocket, but like, that is who I was trying

to be less.

And when I think about the way the cleanup crew manifests in like a social thing to me is like the person says something dumbass and like you just don't let everybody

experience and him experience the discomfort of having said something dumbass.

You jump in and go

like the dancing monkey.

Like you try to distract everyone from what just happened.

You try to put it in context real quick for everyone else.

You just, you're like a gazebo or what is that called?

The, the, at a hockey game in the middle.

A Zamboni.

A Zamboni.

Which is almost exactly like a gazebo.

It's pretty clean.

I tracked, to be honest with you, as soon as she said hockey, I'm like, I'm there.

Okay.

It's fine.

So you're a gazebo is what you want.

So the cleanup crew, I see it with like literally almost all of my friends and me.

It's like so

the giggling, the making okay what you just said.

Yeah.

Is just, it's terrible, actually.

It's so gross.

But that's

the spotlight thing is what I'm really interested in, especially with you, because, and what I was just writing about my journal.

It feels to me

like it's perhaps set up in patriarchal marriages, especially inside of Christian marriages or any marriage where the man is supposed to be the thing.

The problem is that doesn't work because

people are just people, and there's going to be somebody who's shinier,

who's bolder, who's probably a little bit wiser, who's the leader.

And it might be the man, and it might not be the man, it might be the woman.

But when the woman is as shiny and bold and wise as you are,

In order to fulfill the deal you made, which was to always allow him to be,

you have to become a human spotlight.

You have to become dimmer and dimmer and dimmer and try to make him shine because you've not only broken the rules by being as successful

and effervescent and beloved and admired as you are,

you've already fucked up the whole deal you made, which was to allow him to constantly be better than you.

It sucks so bad because it's so true.

Like, I have, I internalized that narrative so deeply and didn't really have another one until I was a grown person with critical thinking skills.

And by that point, I'd already screwed it up.

I'd already gone out on my own ledge.

I'd already created my own world and

couldn't understand the tremors that that was creating.

And so I was trying again to fix it.

Like

I can be as powerful as I am in all these places, but when I come back over here, I need to put a lid on that shit.

Like,

because

it's causing some problems and I don't get it.

And also,

what sucks about that, about me just constantly kind of shrinking so that I didn't, we didn't get too out of a quack here, you know?

It can't be like this, can only be like this.

Is that that's like not even fair to him?

What a shitty arrangement.

Like,

look,

you're married to a smart, wise, powerful person.

Literally, damn.

Like, let's spit into our spaces correctly.

We could flourish like that, like, literally flourish.

And so, even the effort to try to sort of pony up this ethos that you don't even have, right?

To be a thing to match or supersede this.

What?

That's exhausting.

And shames I feel worn out.

It shames the dude.

I can just imagine Craig in his little journal being like, dear God, help me be the leader.

Like he didn't want to.

It shames the guy who maybe doesn't.

It also happens in lesbian marriages.

My marriage was, this is that too.

Yes, you made yourself small.

I had to make myself small to feel like that there was like some sort of balance.

It was a root belief like childhood thing too.

Youngest of seven.

I think what I've learned is that it comes down to stepping into my full humanity and loving myself fully enough.

Cause there was a part of me that felt like, oh yeah, I should dim my light for you.

Like that's what a good partner does.

And really, it's just about self-love.

Like it was self-hate.

I was hating myself in doing that.

God, it's it's so true.

And then I think what happens when we like sign on to this agreement inside a marriage or any kind of partnership where we sort of agree with one another, I'm going to shrink so you can expand.

I'll clean up, I'll clean up and I'll shine the spotlight.

That does create a lot of shame in both partners.

It creates, it does.

That's a shameful practice.

And so shame is when we make our worst choices.

When I am operating out of shame, that's my grossest self.

Yes.

That is when I say and I do things that if I were looking in on that from the outside, it'd be like, Jen,

behave.

Like, no, we don't talk like that.

Like, we don't say that.

We don't posture ourselves like that.

Like,

shame, that sort of shameful agreement

made us mean

and it made us punish each other.

And And we did that in different ways.

I think he would say this.

Brandon punished me with

aggression and dominance and anger,

which has a catastrophic effect on me, just the way that I'm built.

That is already.

Take out the context.

That's going to make me sort of freeze.

I freeze like that.

And then I punished him with withdrawal and withholding.

And so so I will just go

dormant.

I won't respond to this.

I won't engage you.

I won't, I won't even try to make this better.

I'm just absent.

I just, Jin has left the building.

And so we just got in this circular pattern of like aggression and withdrawal.

And we just couldn't find each other anymore.

Like, I've had so much resentment around this, so much.

I was buried in resentment for ways that I was choosing to respond, my choices, right?

At any point, I had the tools.

I had the resources.

I instructed other women how to do better in that scenario.

Do as I say, not as I do, community.

And I just couldn't access it.

Now, like my counselors help me identify shame when it's coming in.

It's not a life sentence responding out of shame.

We are not stuck in that.

That is not a prison that we have to stay in.

It is work to learn how to identify shame, how it feels in our bodies, what it actually does to me physically,

where my thoughts start going when I'm in a shame spiral.

And I can grab that by the tail.

I'm learning to grab that by the tail and say, oh, this is instruction.

My body is instructing me right now that I am getting pushed into a shame space.

And so let's take a minute.

Let's take a beat.

Let's get in front of this.

Let's talk about what's true here, what's not true.

Because shame is always constructed on something that's not true, some sort of lie, lie,

whether it's fear-based or reality-based or both.

Something in here is not true, and it's not going to serve me.

And so let me take a deep breath.

Let me go put my feet in the grass.

Let me drink some water.

And let me pause before I start to respond out of this space and regret it tomorrow morning.

And so that's hard work, kind of.

I'm also medium at that.

But I think that's what happens in our marriages when we continue to shame each other by either shrinking or expanding when that was really never how we were meant to fill a room.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

When I think about women who have

good

friends, I think that you to me are an example of one of the people in my life who values, who puts the energy in, the depth and the realness and the family of friendship that you have created in your life is freaking beautiful.

Here's my question.

Why in the hell

don't why do we share everything with our friends except for

the marriage shit because did you like did you share your you didn't because they had to come to you only half only half yeah okay i did half so like what would you share and what and and then tell me why do we do this why do we leave each other alone

why why do we

why do we because we're so good at getting down into the dark tunnels with each other.

We're so good at it.

Like, I know this experientially.

When I am like

capsized by something in parenting or in work or in a relationship with my parents,

my friends are like excavators coming down to get me and like grabbing me by the hand.

You know, I know that this is our magic, that this is the power of women in relationship with each other.

The marriage piece,

it's so interesting for me to look back on the year prior and go, hmm.

I did pull my friends in at about the 50% mark.

And the parts that I shared were the parts that were palatable.

The ones that felt like I could garner.

compassion from my friends, not just for myself, but for Brandon.

I didn't want him to be, I didn't want him to be non-redeemable in my friend's eyes, you know?

And

I needed to keep him above board enough

so that we could eventually hit that elusive recovery phase that I was waiting to happen and that everybody could still love him and love us.

And so

I think had I been more honest, which I was after.

oh it was so hard to say some things that had been real and true and just like

of course how is it met with nothing but open arms?

Nothing, nothing.

It's not a disconnector.

It's a connector.

Yes.

I've discovered this in my own community of women online that I lead because

I just,

you guys are kind of like this too.

I don't know.

There's not a second version of me.

Do you know what I mean?

I wish there was.

That would make things so much easier on everyone.

For real.

I just only know how to be mostly this one me.

And so I didn't know how to suffer privately.

I didn't know what else to do except for just live my life like the way it was really going,

kind of in the public eye.

And I was like, well, let's just see how this goes.

Like, I don't know what this is going to mean for me, having talked ad nauseum about marriage since Facebook existed.

Right?

Shit.

God.

What could go wrong?

What could go wrong?

Everyone's going to love this.

But what was interesting was to find out, as always, God, we know this.

How many times we have to preach this before we believe it?

Which was what it actually became that level of vulnerability, of like raw,

unprotected, exposed pain that I just said out loud and put in front of my community.

What it was, was an invitation for connection.

And it's exactly what it became.

And something happened in my community over the last year and a half.

I mean, it just experienced depth that we've really never had together.

Because this is not rare.

It's not.

People are hurting, and they're hurting specifically inside of their marriages.

And my story is not new.

It is old and boring.

I'm so

please, men.

Can we get a new story?

This is so boring.

Get this new one.

They all want to be so cliche.

What else could there have been?

You know what I mean?

Like, God.

Some sort of different shock and awe.

I don't know.

Be more creative.

I love that whole thing where we protect our people from the version of the truth because we are afraid they won't be able to take our people back.

It's like that thing I say to my people, you know, I would like to be friends with you, but I already told my sister what you did.

So I can't.

So we're done.

Sorry.

Forever.

Yeah.

We're done.

But I think it's beyond that, though.

I think if we're being really honest, it is about our people and about how you're going to look at them from now on.

And are we going to still be able to like go on that group vacation?

Because now you know who he is.

And, but actually,

it's about your view of me.

Because as much as I can't handle you viewing him like that.

I can't handle you viewing me as the kind of person that's going to stay with that.

Yeah, totally.

Because the cardinal sin in our culture is

someone who settles,

someone who's fine.

So if you say, this is the situation of my marriage, and also

I'm not leaving it, it's like your respect for yourself has gone down, but also the respect that you perceive, that they have for you.

feels like it goes down.

And at least for me,

that is hard.

You know?

It's so real.

And that's always mattered to me disproportionately.

What do people think of me?

This is one of my monsters to slay.

And

it has an outsized effect on my choices, or has, it has for sure, which is something, a lovely little side gift that this kind of public divorce gives you.

Guess what?

You get to fix that.

That's dead.

So

I think you're right, Amanda.

And what sucks about this whole thing is that what's actually true is that when we are standing kind of naked in front of one another and we are just stripped bare of all of our pretenses and all of our posturing and all the ways we polish our gross stuff up and all this pretending, that is really where the magic is.

That is where real connection is.

That is where real community is.

Ironically, that's where real hope comes from, the real kind

that really has, it's based in reality.

Yes.

And I don't know why we run away from this so much.

I really don't.

The self-preservation thing has a terrible ROI.

Just terrible.

It doesn't even work.

No.

It doesn't even work.

I'd love to see us.

tear this down brick by brick.

And I think what happens when people like us who have a lot of eyes on us, more than makes sense and more than I like, frankly.

I don't think we're necessarily built for this kind of attention.

And it kind of has a corrosive effect.

Anyway, whatever.

That's a different, well.

I think when we can dig deep enough to

stand like that in front of our communities without defending, without justifying, without making it a little better than it really is, without anything, just being true, It has this contagious effect.

And I think it has a ripple effect through

our communities that is so healthy and it's so good.

And we start showing ourselves to one another.

And because every single time, I mean, God, how many times do I have to say this?

There's nothing new under the sun.

Every single time, it's a me too, me too, me too, me too.

Every time.

I don't care what your thing is.

I swear to God, I don't care what it is.

However weird outlier little situation you feel like you are in, you are not, you are not, You are not.

Like you have a weird little club that you belong to.

Congratulations.

You know, you don't want it.

Me neither, but we have it.

And so it's so good for us to do this.

And so I know that we are all committed to continue to live like that as often as we can.

Cause we're also just human little people and we'll go into our little hidey holes and get weird.

But as often as we can, I think leading with that sort of vulnerability and truth telling is going to have far-reaching effects that we'll probably never even see.

It's the commitment to say, okay,

I'm okay with you admiring me a little bit less because I want you to love me.

So true.

And it's the only cure for loneliness, right?

I mean, it doesn't matter what your situation is in your marriage.

The universal experience when you're struggling in any way in your marriage, whether you're admitting it or not, is a profound loneliness.

And so isolating.

When you are able to hear

the truth about other people's marriages, guess what that does?

Makes you feel less lonely.

God, so real.

And it takes away the shame of it too,

the deep shame that seeps into our bones.

It's a mean shame because it's not fair and it's not warranted.

But that sort of connection inside shared pain, it just seeps out that shame bit by bit, and it just loses its power over you.

I mean, it really does.

Shame is so powerful in the dark, so powerful.

It could just convince us of all sorts of things.

And so to me, that is an incredible antidote.

It is literally a healing property

to choose to not stay isolated in our own suffering, but invite people into it.

Like that alone is 80% of it.

I mean, I get 80% there, just simply not being alone in it anymore.

So

I do believe in that.

And I love

the community that you build and host, which literally almost enforces this.

You just, you know, we're not setting tables where people have to just put on their prom dress in order to fit at it.

You know what I mean?

It's just a messy, sloppy mess.

Yes.

It is.

So here's what we're going to do.

I assumed that during this 50 minutes, we were going to get through the pain, the waiting, and the rising, okay, of Jen's life.

Apparently, the pain, the waiting, and the rising takes takes longer than 50 minutes.

So today, I think we got to the pain.

So, what we're going to do,

so we've never done this before in the history of we can do our things, but I'm going to beg Jen to come back and we're going to do a part two because I, we must, Jen Hatmaker, talk about how you,

during the waiting and in the rising, just

got your shit together like I have never seen, just figured out how to do life as a whole person.

You had your there she is moment, but it was you.

It was there she is Jen Hatmaker.

Genesance.

The Genesance.

Part two

American Hero.

American Hero.

This is enough.

That's a lot.

This is a lot right now.

I don't think so.

Okay.

Jen, you do hard things and we love you.

Same.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.