How to Quiet Your Inner Critic with Dr. Kristin Neff

How would you like to feel calmer, think clearer, and sleep better, all in just two minutes?

Meet True Vega Plus, a handheld device that uses gentle vagus nerve stimulation to help calm your body's stress response.

In just two minutes a session, True Vega helps shift you out of fight or flight and into a more relaxed, balanced state.

By naturally supporting your body's nervous system, you can quiet mental chatter, ease anxious feelings, and promote deeper, more restful sleep.

So you wake up feeling refreshed and clear-headed.

There are no pills, no side effects, just safe, clinically backed technology developed from decades of neuromodulation research.

Ready to try it out?

Visit truevega.com and use code WCDHT25 at checkout to receive $25 off your purchase.

Take action today and upgrade to feeling better every day with TrueVega.

Visit truevega.com and use my code WCDHT25 to receive $25 off your purchase.

Feel calmer and sleep better with True Vega.

It's the beginning of a new school year and also the classroom sniffles and sneezes that go along with it.

From home to school and back, stock up with Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues.

Start the school year off the right way by preparing for the messes that come with it.

You don't want to be caught without a tissue on hand to help.

Kleenex Ultra Soft Tissues are soft and absorbent to stand up against runny noses, to keep you and your family clean and comforted as the school year starts.

This back-to-school season, make sure to get the classroom essential that teachers and students can rely on.

For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex.

Hello, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

We have the Dr.

Kristen Neff here,

who

we have been hoping to speak to for so long.

And recently, Amanda was talking about how it would be nice if she could silence the critic in her mind.

And we just thought, now's the time, Dr.

Neff.

Beautiful.

I'm so glad you have me on.

Yeah, there's so much resonance, you know, I think in your book.

And actually,

book, um, Untamed came out the same year my book, Fierce Self-Compassion, came out.

So, I feel like there's a little sisterly resonance there.

Maybe I'm presuming, but I love that book.

So, oh, I love that sister books.

Amanda, why don't you let us know why you were so excited to have Dr.

Neff on?

Okay, well, first, I want to talk to the pod squad because I know that many pod squatters

are like me, and I want to speak to them and tell them to hang tight with with this and keep listening to us because

this episode is for

all of us who have a mean voice in our head and to think

that actually we need that constant self-critic in our head in order to keep us motivated.

That if we didn't have the self-critic, we would just be lazy and complacent and our life would be crap.

And

it turns out that's not the case

Like at all, which I thought that this self-compassion idea was very woo-woo, but it turns out that it's all counterintuitive.

The more self-compassion you have, the greater motivation you have,

the like greater self-responsibility that you have, less depression, less anxiety, less perfectionism.

So what I'm saying is I've been trying it out for a tiny beat.

And just hang with us because I think that this is good for the woo-woo people and also the people who are like, yikes, that sounds kind of soft to the touch.

So Dr.

Neff, she's saying, if you're like Glennon, you'll like this.

And if you're like Amanda, you'll like this.

Great, we've got everybody.

Okay.

It covers everyone.

I'm going to introduce Dr.

Neff.

Dr.

Kristen Neff is an associate professor of educational psychology at the University of Texas at Austin and co-founder of the Center for Mindful Self-Compassion.

She is a pioneer in the field of self-compassion research, conducting the first empirical studies on self-compassion more than 20 years ago.

She runs a self-compassion community, an online learning platform where people can learn the skill of self-compassion with the help of others.

She's the author of the best-selling books, Self-Compassion.

and Fierce Self-Compassion.

She also co-wrote the Mindful Self-Compassion workbook and has a new book called Mindful Self-Compassion for Burnout

coming out fall 2024.

So, thank you, Dr.

Nuff, for being here.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm really just thrilled to be talking with you both.

Thank you.

I want to tell you how this little mini journey started with me, and tell me if this makes sense or if this is the way a lot of people come to it.

But I was like in a loop, a mental loop with my relationships and my marriage and whatever, where I would just

see

the things that were wrong.

And I was very

like critical in saying like that

that should be better.

This is a problem over here.

Like basically I had like blinders on of only being able to see that

and it was causing me a lot of suffering and not to mention all the people around me.

And I was talking to a friend and I was like, I don't understand how I can't

get off this cycle and I and I still just feel so negative.

I can only see where things need to be improved.

I can't see where they actually exist.

She was surprised that that was surprising to me.

And she said, why do you think that you'd be able to have a non-critical voice to the people close to you if you always

have a critical voice to yourself?

Like if you can't cut yourself a break ever, how are you ever going to cut anyone else a break?

Is that the case for people who have the critical voice in their head?

No.

Damn it.

All right.

Well, it got me here.

So that's good.

So I've done a lot of research on this, right?

And there's that, it's kind of like people say you can't be compassionate to others until you're compassionate to yourself.

That's actually not the case.

A lot of people are very compassionate to others, maybe don't criticize others or understanding or patient or loving, but beat themselves up.

So that's actually the normal way of being.

Now, when you learn to be more supportive and kind to yourself, it actually helps you be even more compassionate to others and sustain giving compassion to others without burning out or becoming drained.

But first of all, I just have to say, Amanda, It's your brain.

Please don't judge yourself for judging yourself.

This is the way our brains are designed to work.

So our brains through evolution are designed for survival.

And so what's most effective for survival is to, we have something called the default mode of our brain, kind of the normal way our brain operates.

And what it does is it creates a sense of self.

It projects that self into the past or to the future and it looks for problems.

And you can see why this was good for survival, you know, but just the way our brains naturally tend to operate.

And so when you've made a mistake or something difficult happens in your life, you feel threatened naturally, you know, part of you feels threatened.

So you go into fight, flight, or freeze mode.

So you focus on the problem, which is in you or maybe the environment.

You fight the problem.

And if the problem is you, that means you fight yourself, you criticize yourself, thinking maybe you'll make a change so you'll be safe or you control the situation so you'll be safe.

You flee into a sense of shame and isolation, like just kind of to protect yourself from the perceived judgment of others.

And you freeze and you get stuck.

You kind of get in this loop because we think, maybe if I just don't do anything, the problem will go away.

This is natural.

It's normal.

We shouldn't judge ourselves for it.

In fact, you might just take a moment just to really appreciate that part of yourself that's been trying so hard to keep you safe, working very hard, maybe over time for many, many years.

However, it's not actually that effective at keeping this safe.

It kind of works.

I mean, some people, they criticize their way through law school or med school.

So it's not like it doesn't work at all, but it doesn't work as effectively as another system we have,

which actually evolved primarily to care for others.

It's called, there's a lot of names for it, the attachment system, the mammalian care system, the tend and befriend system.

So it's basically the system that evolved for parents to want to care for their infants, their family members, their in-group members.

And this is a system which I'm sure I would, I'd be willing to bet five bucks.

And maybe I can ask Glennon if it's true, that when you're coming to Amanda with a problem or you're upset, she can probably be pretty compassionate and listen or with your friends.

So you have that system also in you, but it just typically comes online for others.

And that's kind of the way it evolved.

But the nice thing is we aren't stuck with that.

We can use this system,

we can access our compassionate self.

We just really learned, we know how to listen, we know how to be there for someone, we know how to be silent, you know, when to give advice, how to help, how to care, but it's usually for others like pets or children or close friends.

So what we're doing with self-compassion is very simple.

It's actually a very humble agenda.

We're just including ourselves in the circle of compassion.

And the cool thing is, just like we know that motivating your child with encouragement, saying, I believe in you, how can I help you, get your grades up or whatever it is you want to do, is more effective than saying, you're stupid and lazy, I hate hate you, which will kind of get the kid to pay attention.

And they might work a little harder, but they're going to be like so overwhelmed with negative self-talk and self-doubt, it's going to actually work against them in the long run.

You know, same with ourselves.

So saying, okay, you're, you know, this is, first of all, a good friend tells it to you straight.

A good friend doesn't say there's not a problem if there is.

That's not being a good friend.

A good friend says, hey, yeah, there's a problem.

It's okay.

It happens to everyone.

How can I help?

It's the exact same thing with ourselves.

When we take that friendly, supportive, clear-sighted attitude with ourselves, it's actually more effective.

No, it makes sense because that's the other thing that that's one of the myths about it.

You know, you'll stop being motivated, but also that like

that is just a tool to cover up your problems.

You know, like if you're being sweet to yourself, you're kind of trying to obfuscate your problem as opposed to what your research has shown is that

if you're beating yourself up over your problem, you're actually not even seeing the problem clearly.

That if you're being compassionate, you can see it.

So can you talk about that?

Yeah, so there's also two faces of self-compassion.

There's a similar energy.

People think that self-compassion is just tender, and it can be tender.

That's an important side.

So tender self-compassion is the accepting, nurturing side of compassion.

You know, if you were to put your hands over your heart and feel that being there with yourself, acceptance, Yes, we're flawed human beings.

We aren't perfect.

That's just the human condition.

Just like a parent, hopefully, unconditionally loves their child.

We can unconditionally love ourselves.

This is a real healing power of self-compassion.

But if you're doing something that's harmful to yourself or others, it's not compassionate.

to say, oh, it's not a problem if it is, right?

And that's where fierce self-compassion comes in.

Fierce self-compassion is like the ability to say, no, you know, draw boundaries.

This is harmful to yourself or others.

Or if you're in a relationship, for instance, it's toxic.

You know, it's not compassionate just to say, oh, well, you know, oh, it's so hard.

The compassionate thing to say is no, or I have to leave or I need to make a change.

This is, I call it like there's mama compassion, like tender mama compassion, and there's mama bear self-compassion.

And both are equally necessary to alleviate suffering.

And so it's really this mama bear self-compassion, the fear self-compassion that says, hey, I love you unconditionally, just hopefully like a mama bear would, but this behavior has got to change.

How can I help?

Or this relationship, not good for you.

Or, you know, the fact that you're being discriminated against, it's not okay.

You know, drawing boundaries, saying no, it's a really kind of overlooked part of self-compassion, which is really crucial.

Because if we want to alleviate suffering, which is really what self-compassion is, the desire to alleviate suffering, we need more the accepting side and we need the action side and it's like yin and yang they need we need both they need to be in balance constantly

oh so when you're talking about having the conversation okay

i love you but this thing isn't good for you

you're talking to yourself you have a behavior or you have a habit or you have a choice you're making or a way of being

and you are talking to yourself and saying love this is not for you absolutely at the same time so so normally when people do that the inner critic sometimes says that but says you better change or else you won't be a worthy person if you want to be lovable you better get your you know shit together basically

so this so the tender self-compassion is like i love you unconditionally you know even though you're a mess I still love you.

Your worth isn't contingent upon making change.

But because I love you,

I really care about you and I see that this behavior is not helping, you know, it's harming you.

I think, I love you, I see you're suffering.

How can I help?

So again, you want to make the change and sometimes you need to be firm, like, hey, draw boundaries.

This is not okay.

But it's coming from love, not coming from like fear of being inadequate.

And it makes a huge difference.

We know this instinctually for our children.

We know both work, but it works much more effectively when the bottom line is unconditional love and the fierceness.

When a child knows that mom is doing this because she loves me, not because she hates me, it's going to land a lot better.

Exact same thing with ourself.

You know, but yeah, sometimes we need to stand up for ourselves.

But also, you know, remember, I know you're really focused on like standing up for whether it's LGBTQ rights.

I actually wrote the fierce self-compassion book when the whole Me Too movement was happening.

This whole thing of saying no discrimination, you know, anti-racism, no sexism, no, that saying no to others is also a really huge part of taking care of ourselves.

And so we need both.

If we're too accepting, we might be complacent.

On the other hand, if it's too much about like change, change, change, we have to accept the frailty and messiness of the human condition.

People are messy, situations are messy, relationships are messy, we're messy.

You know, so we can accept our worth unconditionally as flood human beings at the same time that we can be pretty strong and powerful and saying, hey, something's got to change here because I love you, not in order for me to love you.

Yeah, I love you so much that I can't leave you in this place, whether that's yourself or the world or your kid.

And it feels very different when someone's being tough with you, like maybe a coach.

You know, I'm sure Abby could talk to this, a really good coach doesn't say to their players, oh, don't worry about it.

You know, no, because by the way we did a study if you don't believe me with ncaa athletes and these are you know they have to be the best you can't be second best if you want to like if your scholarships writing on it or you want to go into the pros so we taught them to be self-compassionate about their mistakes their training routines or their games but like to think of an ideally compassionate coach now for an athlete the ideally compassionate coach is the one who points out very clearly how you can improve because the kindest thing you can do for an athlete is to say, hey, here's how you can improve.

But not from like a place like you're only worthy unless you're perfect, but yeah, I love you, I care about you, this is what's not working, you know, giving you really good constructive feedback.

And we found that athletes who learn self-compassion, their performance improved.

Their mental health improved, but their performance also improved.

And this is not only their own opinion.

Their coaches also rated them as improving their performance because it's more effective.

We can let in the feedback in when it's safe to do so.

When I know that, okay,

yeah, it hurts, but I can admit it.

I made this mistake or this isn't working so well.

Doesn't mean I'm a bad person.

I'm only a human being.

We could let it in more and we can grow from it.

I mean, we learn from our failures, don't we?

We know that.

And yet somehow we think we aren't supposed to fail.

But it's true.

We learn from our failures.

If we're so threatened, if our goodness and lovability and worthiness on the planet is contingent upon not receiving that negative feedback because that means I'm bad and I'm not worthy and I'm not lovable, then of course we're not going to let the information in and then we'll never be able to solve the problem.

Whereas I am already loved, I'm already good, I'm already worthy, therefore I can receive this feedback you're giving me and take it in.

I loved when you're about the athletes, when you were working with the basketball players at UT and you gave them this course, but you, you called it inner resilience instead of self-compassion so that they could

like

accept it and tolerate it and integrate it.

So it sounded

like inner strength training because I knew the older.

Inner strength training.

Inner strength training.

Yeah.

But it is.

It is.

It really is

another way of bolstering yourself up for what life inevitably is.

It's actually more realistic.

It is.

It is.

And by the way, so back in your point that you were making about self-worth.

So when I first introduced the construct of self-compassion to the field of psychology, by the way, I didn't come up with the idea.

It's not my idea.

It's actually Thich Nhat Hanh, who's a Zen master, talked a lot about it.

But, you know, I did play a role in bringing it into academia.

And my first paper was an alternative way to feel good about yourself in terms of comparison to self-esteem.

So self-esteem is esteem, the word esteem is an estimation, a judgment of worth, and it's contingent.

In other words, we have high self-esteem when we look the way we want to look, when our body looks the way we want it to look, when we succeed the way we want to succeed, when people like us.

But it's a fair weather friend, because what happens when we don't look the way we want to look, or people reject us, or we don't succeed the way we want to succeed, it leaves us flat, and then we feel badly about ourselves.

So self-compassion also provides a sense of worth, but it's intrinsic to our humanity.

It's like you don't have to go to graduate school to be worthy of self-compassion.

The moment you're a human being, a living, breathing, flawed human being, trying the best you can,

that's where our self-worth comes from.

So you might say it's a true and stable friend.

When we don't look the way we want to look, or we don't succeed the way we wanted to, or people don't like us, then we can just be with ourselves with this unconditional type of support.

So the research shows, for instance, I had,

we did a study of people with body image concerns, women with body image concerns, and we had them listen to the meditations on my website for three weeks.

And we found that just doing that for three weeks, their sense of self-worth was less contingent on how they looked.

They were more able to find a sense of self-worth that was more stable, this true friend, that was just from the fact that they were a living, breathing human being.

And so that's a huge difference between the two.

And that's one of the reasons it provides such benefits.

It makes so much sense because we don't say to our kids, hopefully we've learned this, like, you know, we don't tell them messages over and over again, I love you because you're beautiful.

I love you because you're smart.

I love you because you work hard.

I love you because whatever, because

those things, while they seem like compliments, they're actually terrifying because, okay, so if you love me because I am smart or because I show up or because I achieve, then

I am not those things.

Or when I'm not those things, you won't love me.

It's the same to ourselves, right?

It's what drives me nuts about like the beauty messages and body messages of you're beautiful, we're all beautiful, we're all beautiful, you're beautiful, that body's beautiful.

Like that's not the point.

The point is that we shouldn't have to be beautiful at all.

Like that's not where our worth is.

I don't want anybody to tell your body's perfect, you're beautiful.

I just want you to remind me that that doesn't matter at all.

Exactly, exactly.

It's unconditional.

Parenting is a really good example.

It used to be, as you know, spare the rod, spoil the child.

We actually used to think that you needed to be harsh and cruel with kids, otherwise they become spoiled and lazy, you know.

And now, hopefully, most of us have learned that that's not good parenting.

It's the exact same thing with ourselves.

You know, so the love and the acceptance, this is the tender self-compassion, is unconditional.

But the behaviors and the situations, we're always working to try to get them to be as healthy as possible because we care, not in order to be lovable.

It's huge.

Once you make that shift,

it just changes everything.

And it's so much easier

to get things done when you aren't dealing with like the shame on your shoulder saying you aren't good enough.

You know, it just kind of depletes you,

makes it harder than it needs to be.

Sister, do you have like an example of this?

What does your voice sound like?

Like,

what is the voice in your head that has made you

realize you even want to address this?

What's driving you nuts up there?

Well, so there's two, I have like two kind of of parallel tracks of it.

One is how

I am

unable

to see

anything other than the way things need to be improved or the way things could be better.

If things are 98%

amazing or if I've done something 99 point,

my focus, my brain is on the one or two percent.

And it's like the rest of it's invisible.

so

and that's in every aspect of my life the way i perform or or any output um

more recently and this is something that i would love to talk about now is the like the aspect of this that is about like

just surviving the inevitable pain of

every day and year and month and whatever and especially with like parenting and life

And

so when things happen that are beyond my control, when I see my kids going through something, when I and

allowing, trying to allow it

to be as painful and hard as it is.

not immediately going to, they're going through that because I fucked up in these three ways.

If I would have done X, they wouldn't be going through that.

If that person over there didn't do do it, you know, like trying to make the world controllable by my

criticisms as if I,

as if

those things were better, that pain wouldn't be happening as opposed to just letting

the pain be.

Which is what I've been working on in therapy, which I had in epiphany when I was reading your work, Dr.

Neff, because my therapist is always doing this such an annoying thing, where she's always like,

Wait, stop.

Where do you feel that in your body?

Wait, when you're talking about that, like, is that your throat or your belly?

And I'm like, what does this have to do with anything?

We need a solution.

Like, what's happening?

And I always thought it was, but can you take us to

why that

perception and attunement to your body is absolutely vital to self-compassion?

On this show, we talk a lot about resilience and what it really means to support one another.

For healthcare and wellness professionals, that's the job, day in and day out.

Nurses, doctors, therapists, the healthcare workers all across the nation, they're the ones who show up for us.

So it's just as important that they feel supported too.

That's why we partnered with FIGS.

For too long, scrubs were an afterthought and not anymore.

Figs scrubs are thoughtfully designed in innovative fabrics made to meet the demands of the job and look good doing it.

There's a full range of styles and go-to colors, plus limited edition drops that bring a little joy into every day.

So, if you work in healthcare or wellness or love someone who does, these are the scrubs.

Use code FIGSRX for 15% off your first order at wherefigs.com.

That's 15% off at wherefigs.com with code FIGSRX.

What does the future hold for business?

Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers.

Bull market, bear market.

Rates will rise or fall.

Inflation, up or down.

Can someone please invent a crystal ball?

Until then, over 40,000 businesses have future-proofed their business with NetSuite.

the number one AI cloud ERP, bringing accounting, financial management, inventory, HR into one fluid platform.

With one unified business management suite, there's one source of truth, giving you the visibility and control you need to make quick decisions.

With real-time insights and forecasting, you're peering into the future with actionable data.

When you're closing the books in days, not weeks, you're spending less time looking backwards and more time on what's next.

Whether your company is earning millions or even hundreds of millions, NetSuite helps you respond to immediate challenges and seize your biggest opportunities.

highly recommend it.

Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash hardthings.

The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hardthings.

Netsuite.com slash hardthings.

I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

That's why I think Alma is so so cool.

Alma connects you with real therapists who understand your unique experience.

You can use their directory to search for someone who specializes in the areas that matter most to you, whether that's anxiety, relationships, or anything else.

And what stands out to me about ALMA is that 97% of people seeing a therapist through ALMA say their therapist made them feel seen and heard.

You know, I love that.

That level of connection isn't something you can get from scrolling through online advice or following social media.

It's about finding someone who truly understands your journey and is dedicated to helping you make progress.

Better with people, better with alma.

Visit helloalma.com slash hardthings to get started and schedule a free consultation today.

That's hello ALMA.com slash hardthings.

Before we go farther, I really do, I want to make sure, Amanda, because it's so common when people go down this path that you're really appreciating that voice in your head that wants to get things right.

The part that wants to control things, it's not because you're a controlling person, it's because you're a caring person, right?

And so you want to alleviate suffering, your kids, your own.

But, you know, it's coming from a place.

These are like old parts of us, you know, just like the reptilian brain that just wants to control things, fight, flight, or freeze.

And so it just needs a little update, you know, so it comes from a good place.

It comes from a good heart.

But in fact, it's actually not that effective.

That's a problem with it.

And that

one saying we have is the goal of practice is simply to become a compassionate mess.

Oh, it doesn't mean that our goal is to be a mess.

Our goal isn't to be a mess.

Our goal is when the mess of life arises, which it will, that our goal shifts.

Our goals are bring compassion to it.

And so you talked about the brain, which again, which is the way brains are designed, always looking for the problem.

What you can actually learn to do is when the problem arises, you let yourself feel compassion for the pain of that mess.

And then what happens is instead of just the problem being foregrounded, what actually becomes foregrounded is the compassion that's holding the mess.

Does that make sense?

So instead of just the pain, there's like all this kind of love and connectedness and presence with with the pain.

And your goal actually starts to be to cultivate that, you know, to cultivate when a mess arises to be compassionate toward the mess.

And you start to actually get your primary satisfaction and sense of safety, believe it or not, not from getting things right, but from having an open heart.

That starts to become your refuge, the place it really starts to be your goal.

That's what you're looking for, is to have your heart open, to feel kindness, to feel compassion for yourself and others.

Okay, so that's part one of your question.

The body part of your question is also really important, and I could see how it'd be annoying, but the reason we do it is because

if you look at the Latin word of the root of the word compassion, passion means to suffer, calm is with.

So how are we with our pain?

When we're with our pain just in our thoughts and our emotions, typically what happens is we just end up exacerbating our pain because we think we shouldn't have the pain and we resist the pain or we try to control the pain or we judge ourselves for having the pain.

If we move our awareness kind of, we call it dropping out of your head into your body and you're just feeling the pain,

so that's why your therapist says, you know, where do you feel it?

In your heart, in your stomach, you know, in your chest, is there a tension?

then we're not in the storyline of the pain anymore.

It's more just a physical sensation.

So it allows us to still be with the pain.

We don't want to reject it or resist it because that will make it worse.

So we accept that we're hurting, but at the physical level, we aren't running away with the storyline of it.

And then a thing you can add is like you could just, okay, I feel tension in my chest.

You can actually put your hands over that part of your body where you're physically feeling the pain.

You know, again, we're, you know, kids, the primary way parents communicate compassion before language comes in is through touch.

So our bodies are also designed to interpret touch as a signal of care.

So maybe you're, you know, your default mode, your brain can't go there.

It's just doing fight, flight, or freeze.

Okay, drop out of your brain into your body.

Where do you feel the pain?

Oh, I feel it as the tension in my throat.

Okay, can you put some hands there or just hold yourself and be with that pain in a caring way?

And what we know from the research, I know people are thinking it's woo-woo, there's over 7,000 studies.

This is empirically supported stuff.

Study came out that just doing that 20 seconds a day really increases self-compassion.

And another study found it's actually changing your physiology.

You're reducing cortisol levels, you're increasing heart rate variability, you're switching from sympathetic to parasympathetic nervous system reaction.

So our body, it's like we can start with our body.

Then once your body's calmer, then it's actually easier for your head to follow.

Does that make sense?

So there's method to your therapist's badness.

Yeah, because isn't it part of it is

just the baseline embodiment of I think I don't even know

when I am suffering part of the time.

Like, I think the baseline, like, the kind of foundation of self-compassion is the recognition of your suffering.

And I don't even think, like, I think I'm operating on that baseline understanding as opposed to, because when it's all in my head and everything is just a problem that can be solved

then i'm not recognizing

that it isn't just problems that need to be solved the reason i'm jumping to the problem that needs to be solved is because it's so unbearable for me to sit with the suffering

your insight is why i've got my model of self-compassion actually has three parts

So the first part, according to my model of self-compassion, is mindfulness.

And that's exactly what you're pointing to, the awareness.

Instead of just being lost in solving the problem, just recognizing, wow, I'm really hurting.

You know, I need a little help here.

I need some attention because this is hard right now.

So instead of running away with the pain or

we either ignore it or we run away trying to solve it.

But just

take a step back and just be with it.

This is really hard.

And then there's the kindness and warmth that you've been talking about, like the care, the nurturing, sometimes the mama bear, like fierceness, but there's the trying to alleviate the suffering through kindness.

And there's a third element we haven't talked about, but that's really important and that really differentiates not only self-esteem from self-compassion, but self-pity from self-compassion.

So what's the difference between self-pity and self-compassion, or for that matter between pity and compassion of their people?

So the third element is the sense of connectedness or what I call common humanity.

When we frame our experience in light of the human experience, so self-pity is poor as me, woe is me, you know, everyone else is living a normal, perfect life, and it's just me who's made a mistake.

Or when I pity you, it's like, oh, I'm looking down on you.

This woman's kind of screwed up, but I feel sorry for her.

That's not compassion.

Compassion is, hey, all human beings struggle.

Absolutely not the same amount.

And some people are privileged, some people are not.

So there's differences.

It's not like we're all one.

We are different, unique, and our stories are different.

And yet, again, intrinsic to our humanity is this worthiness, right?

And everyone struggles in one way or another.

There's nothing wrong with you.

You know, that's why I was trying to emphasize, Amanda, please don't judge yourself for judging yourself because the brain wants to do that.

Because then it thinks, oh, maybe I can fix this one too.

No, this is what it means to be human.

We do this, we criticize ourselves, we're scared, we make mistakes.

Even though the word self is in self-compassion, the sense of self actually lessens with self-compassion.

Yes.

Because it's like we expand our boundaries and okay, I'm a human being, you know, just going through the ups and downs of life, trying the best I can moment to moment.

And the moment we do that, it feels more relaxed.

You know, when we aren't so self-focused, and I need to fix it, I need to solve it.

I need to be perfect.

So from my point of view, really all three need to be there in order for this to be a really healthy mindset.

Is there a piece of this that is

also

about

making intimacy possible?

Because when you talk about

like we're either believe that we're below everyone else and

we feel like crap about ourselves and look at all these people that I haven't figured out and I don't, or we're trying so hard to preserve this idea that we're above people.

But when we're above people or below people, we're not

our existence depends on not being with people and among people.

Like

it seems like the ability to do this, and if you actually did the self-compassion would actually allow you to have intimacy with other people.

Absolutely.

So first of all, one insight you had.

This is a funny thing about self-esteem.

And we all suffer from it.

In American culture, especially, to have just baseline, minimal self-esteem, we have to be special and above average.

Let's face it, Glennon, if I said, yeah, your book untamed, it was average.

You're going to go, eh.

If you say, oh, I read your book, Fierce Self-Compassion, it was average.

I'm going to go, uh, you know,

it's just...

It's like inner culture, we are conditioned.

We didn't choose this.

We're conditioned to have to be above average, just to have baseline to be good enough.

And that sets up isolation.

And as you said, Amanda, we're always like jockeying for position.

We either feel like, oh, they're so much better than me, I'm worthless, or like, I'm better than them.

We can't just be one in our common humanity, which means strengths and weaknesses, partly because our culture has conditioned us to be that way.

Well, let's just stay there for a second because it's so huge.

It's huge.

It's the withness.

You said compassion means passion with.

And so it's like the epitome of self-love.

And I don't know how many times I've exploded about this, like getting just to the edge of it and then losing it.

But it is a dissolution of self or a complete understanding of like the path of self-love leads you to understand that you are everyone and everyone is you.

Like people, I feel like people think self-love is like if I take enough bubble baths, but it's like a complete

loss of the illusion that you are any different than me, that I am any different than you, that any of us are bad or good.

And then you just relax into being

so deeply connected.

I mean, if you do it like that, it's like the most self-indulgent, self-centered thing you can do

to not practice this.

Of course it is.

Because then you're just trying to prove where you shake out as opposed to just if you do this, it's the opposite of self-indulgent because you're just trying to prove that you're just like everyone else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I mean, we all have unique gifts and strengths.

So it's, you know, it's not like we're all the same.

And, you know, I think we have to be careful because when we go down this path, especially people who've been historically oppressed, you know, it's not, if you, you know, we aren't all one and we haven't been treated all the same way, but we all are, we're all human and we all have unique gifts and strengths.

But Glenn, I just taught a workshop this last weekend called Who is the Self and Self-Compassion, teaching with a spiritual teacher, a friend of mine, where we actually did that.

So you might say that the self that receives the compassion is our sense of personal self.

We feel limited, we feel separate, we feel isolated, we need compassion.

But the self that brings the compassion, the source of compassion, like when we shift from like the self that needs the compassion to the self that gives the compassion, that self is like unified.

It dissolves.

It dissolves into something you might call interbeing.

Yes.

It really is for many people, you could think of it as a spiritual concept.

You don't have to be spiritual with it.

But my friend Dan Siegel says spirituality is basically just going beyond our everyday sense of small self.

And so in that sense, it's very spiritual.

We're going beyond our everyday sense of small self, which needs to be special and above average, which needs to be perfect, to this like larger whole and recognizing our interconnection, our oneness with you know the universe, with all life,

at the very least, other human beings.

And when that sense of self softens, that sense of boundariedness,

then the compassion starts to flow.

Very important, though, because I'm hearing all people's parts.

You hear that

boundaryless with boundaries.

In other words, this sense of self, if it sees like you're being mistreated, it may very well draw a boundary.

But it's not coming from a place of separation.

It's coming from a place of love.

That's like the million-dollar take-home.

Yeah.

That the boundaries, that the action, that the self-improvement, it's all coming from a place of love, not a place of deficiency.

And there's a recognition.

I feel that the more I go into this place where we're all,

there is a part of us that is exactly the same.

There is an internal part of us that is untouchable and unchangeable and of utmost worth inside of every single person.

And that is the same.

That is the same.

I don't think that the more I go into that place,

the more I

am

physically and spiritually unable to accept the degradation or marginalization of anyone else.

It is not a place where I go to say, oh, we're all the same, so we're all having the same experiences on the planet.

I go to the place of we are all sacred, and so how dare

anybody

create a hierarchy or oppression?

Or it is a place of deep love and connectedness that blossoms into advocacy for all of us.

It is because the culture doesn't want us to see that.

That is not something that we see unless we are in a deep compassion practice, or because that is not what's presented to us.

Hey, everyone.

I've got to tell you about Viori if you haven't heard of them.

You're missing out.

And we love this stuff.

I've been living in this stuff for years.

I recently got the performance jogger from their Dream Knit collection.

And let me just say, it's hands down the softest, comfiest jogger I've ever worn.

I use them for everything.

Viori is an investment in your happiness.

I promise you.

For our listeners, they are offering 20% off your first purchase.

Get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at viori.com slash hardthings.

That's vuori.com slash hardthings.

Exclusions apply.

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

Not only will you receive 20% off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any U.S.

orders over $75 and free returns.

Go to viori.com slash hardthings and discover the versatility of Viori clothing.

Exclusions apply.

Visit the website for full terms and conditions.

These two sides of compassion, fierce and tender.

And so gender role socialization really impacts our ability to manifest both.

So people raised as men, and by the way, I'm not talking about biological sex or even gender identity.

You might be trans or non-binary.

I'm talking about like what shoebox were you put in when you grew up?

Were you put in the pink shoebox or the blue shoebox?

So people put in the blue shoebox aren't allowed to be tender.

This is a huge harm.

I mean, people are bullied, they're called names that they're too tender, too sensitive.

This is partly why people raised as men, they can't access the healing power of tender self-compassion.

You know, 15% of the people that show up at my workshops are, you know, people who identify as men.

That's a problem because research shows it's actually one of the most powerful sources of strength, coping, and resilience we have available.

And that's cut off from people raised as men because of gender role socialization.

People raised as women operates a little different.

We're allowed to be tender.

We're encouraged to be tender.

But for others,

we're actually also encouraged to be self-sacrificing.

So this is a weird statistic.

So women have actually quite a bit more compassion for others than men do.

There's lots of exceptions.

I don't want to generalize, but because of gender role socialization, they're compassion experts.

They were taught how to be compassionate.

So it comes very easily.

But they're a little less self-compassionate than men.

It's not because men are all about self-compassion.

It's because they feel entitled to get their needs met.

People raised as women don't feel so entitled to get their needs met.

So the discrepancy for women is larger.

But women also aren't allowed to be fierce, right?

I mean, there's a little more leeway for like tomboy behavior, but you know, like that, Kamala Harris, she's so ambitious.

You know, like if you look at like the glass ceiling, a lot of it is because, yeah, women can be powerful, but we don't really like them.

And if we don't like them, we may offer them less money.

And if they ask for more money, we think, oh, she's not being very feminine, so I like her less.

So this is like a real problem.

There's a lot of backlash for women.

So the beautiful thing about compassion, especially the balance of tender and fierce compassion, is like it's an act of radical authenticity.

It's saying, you know,

I don't care what my society tells me about how I'm supposed to be.

If I love myself, that means I'm going to be both fierce and tender in the way that's uniquely right for me.

So it's also kind of a political act because our society tells us to, you know, to buy our goods.

You better want to be special and above average.

Good woman look this way, good man look that way.

It's like they've sold us.

And by the way, it's not a mistake.

I'm going to, don't get me too much started on patriarchy, but it's not a mistake that women are told to be self-sacrificing because who does that benefit?

Hmm.

The people whose needs are being met by women.

You know, so it all plays a role, which is again why we need to be self-compassionate about all this because we didn't invent this system.

It's a system we grew up in, but it is our responsibility to be aware of it.

That's where the mindfulness comes in.

To be aware of how the systems of oppression, how the, you know, unconscious biases, how history, and also just how everyday things, like, you know, you got to be aware of how our society pushes us to be special and above average, partly out of a concern with buying goods and consumerism.

I mean, it's pretty pernicious.

American society, you know, you're never good enough, or unless you buy our products, or you do this, then you look this certain way, or, you know, then maybe you'll be good enough.

And the whole system is kind of predicated on that insecurity.

And so, if you're really going to take self-compassion all the way, it is about radical authenticity.

What's true for me?

What does my heart really want?

What allows my heart to rest, regardless of what society says.

And that's a big act, and it takes a lot of courage because it's like I

can survive this.

Like, if you believe that in any moment you can come alongside yourself and be with yourself in that and take care of yourself in that,

that changes everything because all of our desires to gather all of these things around us and put up all of these defenses and buy these things that we think are going to protect us are because

We

believe

that we need those things in order to survive.

Yes, exactly.

And then you start realizing, well, what is it that really makes me strong and safe?

Well, that's my inner self.

That's my, you know, you can call it your higher self, your true self, you know, you can use whatever name resonates for you.

But when we know that we have our own back,

that we accept ourselves unconditionally, that we'll support ourselves unconditionally, that we'll speak up for ourselves when we need to speak up, that we'll draw boundaries, that we won't abandon ourselves, you know, that's when we really start to feel safe.

And that's really what the practice of self-compassion is cultivating.

You know, really cultivating intentionally that's being there for ourselves when times are tough, being a good friend to ourselves.

Do people's critical voice, does it correspond with what you were taught your worth was inside of?

So, like, if my critical voice is mad at me every time I don't get enough done, or if my critical voice is mad at me when I don't look good, or if my critical voice is when I'm tired, or does that correspond to, if you're saying to him, I'm mad at myself because,

then that thing that you identify means that that's where you believe your worth is, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I would say this, it's actually two parts.

Part of this is just our brains and evolution and part of it is socialization.

So I don't want to downplay either of them.

So for instance, my son, he's autistic and he's pretty self-critical.

And he clearly didn't learn that from me.

And that's just his brain, like he thinks it feels safer to like beat himself up because he's afraid of the judgments of others.

And that's partly with challenge of perspective taking.

I can see it in his brain.

He's like, dear in the headlights.

He's afraid he's done something wrong.

So he starts criticizing himself because it...

helps him feel like maybe he'll be in control.

I didn't teach him that, I guarantee you.

So part of it, it's just important to realize that part of it is just the brain evolve, fight, flight, or freeze.

But it's only part of the story.

Everything, it's always nature and nurture.

Another big way is the messages we got from our early caregivers and from the culture.

So, you know, the messages, and, you know, the parents are part of it, but just middle school, think about middle school.

Think of all the messages you absorbed in middle school.

You know, all that mean girl stuff and stuff we're raised with.

We internalize this.

And we get the message that this is why we're worthy.

You know, sometimes if we had critical parents, either who are directly critical of us or maybe who are very self-critical, we got the message, oh, I see, this is the right way to be with yourself.

That's some of it.

Let me interrupt real quick and say, doesn't the every time I hear mean girl, my body reacts and I feel...

defensive of every girl everywhere every time that's said.

So what I want to suggest too

is isn't even the mean girl talk a result of the culture that we have that the girls are are soaking in the message that there can only be one of us that our worth is in our beauty that our whatever like that didn't come from nowhere even the mean girl stuff is a result of misogyny that has been breathed in 150 and if i i guess i assumed that that was clear but thank you for because i know not everyone right interprets it that way Absolutely.

That's all.

That's all a product of what we're talking about.

You know,

I mean, it's not like culture is a personality that's like evil, thinking, how are you going to mess people up?

This is just, it just kind of evolves over time, but partly so that people who had power could stay in power.

So teaching women that, for instance,

that their worth came from their beauty, that kind of really supported a culture in which, you know, the men had the power, they had the money.

Back in the day, you couldn't even own property.

A woman's worth came from bearing children being a good wife i mean they're all interconnected all those messages which leads to things like um you know some people buying those messages that looks is all that matters and then taking unhealthy ways to reinforce that message

it's all intertwined absolutely

But having said that, I remember being in middle school getting some of these messages that my worth came from like looking a certain way and nothing comes between me and my Calvins and short ass jeans and all that stuff.

But you know those messages are buried pretty deep and it's just really good to bring them out into the light of day and say, you know, I internalize those messages because I was just trying to stay safe, but I don't need them anymore.

That's not where my safety comes from.

My safety comes from just beautiful.

It doesn't take much, just from being.

Being.

Being.

It doesn't need anything more than that.

I mean, the miracle of being.

It's not what you are, it's just that you are.

And when you really start to learn to rest in being

just in your awareness and the open heart, you know, this is really where, for me, these days, where my real satisfaction comes from.

Going back to the idea, the goal of practice is to be a compassionate mess.

Yeah, of course, you're going to do whatever you can not to be a mess, but that's not really the goal.

The goal is to rest in your own compassionate heart.

And that's where the true satisfaction and fulfillment and happiness is

i

wonder if you could i was really touched by a lot that you've shared about um the moments that you were able to

give

yourself uh compassion in raising your son um

especially in those very challenging and public moments.

And so I wonder if you could, as as a way to kind of folks to put this in practice or to imagine what it looks like for them in a moment of stress or suffering to

actually give themselves the compassion, what it feels like, what you go through.

Could you give us an example from your life?

Yeah, yeah.

And I like to talk about my son also just because,

you know, a lot of us are caregivers, we're parents, or we're caring for elderly parents, or maybe we have a special needs child.

Also to make the point that self-compassion is not selfish because what we cultivate inside, we communicate to those around us.

And this is partly through the way, going back to the brain, we're designed to empathically resonate with others.

So if you're in the presence of someone who's upset, you feel upset.

It's just kind of the way the brain works.

It's designed to do that.

And so when, you know, when my son, by the way, he's doing great.

He just graduated a community college.

He's doing wonderful.

But, you know, when he was younger, he really struggled.

And he would have these horrible tantrums.

And of course, we were very empathically attuned.

So when he was tantruming, not only was it really difficult because he was screaming, but I would also just feel it as a mother because we resonated.

So I remember one time we were on a transatlantic flight.

We were flying to London to see his grandparents.

And he's very had a lot of sensory issues.

So we just had dinner.

And it was that part of the flight when they, they you know they turned on the lights and everyone thought oh great i can get sleep and my son for whatever reason was not expecting it so suddenly turning off the lights for him was like a

and he went into like this full-on flailing screaming tantrum on the plane and he was like five at the time and i kind of was like he was like

And, you know, so I was thinking, people are used to crying babies and maybe crying two-year-olds, but he was, you know, I was thinking, oh, these people don't understand.

He's five.

He should be older than this.

And what's wrong with that mother and why can't she you know control her kid they probably weren't thinking that but i was imagining they were and i felt really bad because it was really disturbing people were trying to get some sleep so i got the brilliant idea oh i know maybe i'll take him to the toilets and let him have his tantrum in there and maybe it'll like muffle the cries it was like the only plan i i could come up with

So like I took him kicking and screaming, flailing down that little aisle.

Excuse me, excuse me, coming through to the toilet, which was of course occupied.

of course because the lesson life had for me in that moment was not how to avoid difficult situations who the clever plan of muffling his cries in the toilet the the lesson was what do you do when you have no other plan right

so what we did is even though it was probably in sanatory we got down on the floor because i couldn't hold him he was like he was five and he was too big so we got down on the floor and i and i made sure he was safe but i just flooded myself with compassion you know normally in public i don't do it obviously but i didn't care i mean

I was disturbing anyway.

So I just sat there and I put my hands to my heart and I just started rocking myself.

Like I couldn't reach him, but I started rocking myself.

And I'm so sorry, Kristen, this is so hard.

I'm here for you.

It's going to be okay.

You know, I love you.

You know, just kind of flooded myself with warmth and care and support.

I was just really there for myself in that moment.

And a couple things happened.

This may be hard to believe, but I had this experience a lot.

Instead of my awareness being totally consumed with his tantrum in this horrible situation, my awareness was flooded with the love and the kindness.

So it's like it foregrounded the love.

The problem was still there, but it wasn't overwhelming me.

So that gave me a big well of resources, like just being the love and the kindness and the kind of the caring for myself in this difficult situation.

And then the other thing is

empathic resonance goes two ways.

So for caregivers, what you cultivate inside is being directly communicated to the person you care for through their mirror neurons.

Yes.

And so he was very tuned to me and he calmed down.

I couldn't reach him directly.

But when I could calm down and I got filled with like this loving, connected presence, which is another way to describe self-compassion, he calmed down.

And then once he started calming down, then I could start working with him more directly.

You know, and so.

What we cultivate inside is not only a gift to ourself, it's the gift to everyone we come in contact with because they are coming into contact instead of with like a frustrated, self-critical, stressed person, they're coming into contact with like a caring, open-hearted, calmer person.

And by the way, now my son has learned self-compassion.

He'll say to me sometimes, like, mom, give yourself a break.

It's only human.

It's so sweet.

Like upset about something.

So,

yeah.

Oh, thank you for sharing that.

That was so beautiful.

So helpful.

I love that.

I will take that visual with me of the floor of the plane unsanitary or not

like with your hands

yes with your hands over your heart rocking and saying I speaking to yourself about the hard time not speaking to your son yes about his hard time yourself about your hard time

Oh that's a really wonderful he can't regulate his own emotions but I can work with mine and sometimes you're with Sony so upset you can't reach them but you can reach yourself and you can help them kind of through their mirror neurons, their capacity to resonate with you.

The presence you cultivate can actually help other people, which is really important for parents or anyone who loves someone who's upset.

You know,

you have to, if you just focus on other people and not yourself,

you aren't going to have the resources to be there for them.

Anyone who thinks it's selfish, like that is a real thing.

And the studies that they've done of the people who are working on self-compassion, their partners report that they're more satisfied with the relationship because the people who are working on self-compassion are less controlling and less angry and less stressed.

So, like, you did your homework, Amanda.

She always does.

Good.

That's exactly right.

Please tell me the value, the probability value we found in that study.

No, that's exactly right.

Thank you.

Giving myself compassion for not having that statistic on hand.

Well done.

I've never had someone who's interviewing me like quote my own studies to me like, well, I'm impressed.

Thank you

for all the work you're doing.

I'm so excited to continue on this road.

Like I really feel like this is a key to unlocking something in me that I've been trying to work on for a while.

And this feels like a kind of clicking into place situation that

to work on.

And I'm really grateful for all of your work.

I'm so happy.

And also, it's really not that difficult.

It's not rocket science because we've already developed the template of how to be compassionate for others.

It's not like we're developing something new.

We just have to give ourselves permission to use those skills we've developed for others with ourselves.

And there's a whole, like, you know, the last 15 years I've been spending on really finding out ways to teach this to other people through developing certain exercises and programs.

It's not that difficult.

This is the really good news.

It's easier than you think.

But it will change your life.

Thank you, Dr.

Neff.

Your work is world-changing and family changing and life-changing, and I'm really grateful that you exist.

Well, thank you so much.

I really appreciate both of you so much as well.

Okay, pod squad.

Be good to yourself.

We'll see you back here next time.

Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod.

While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much.

We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wombach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

I walked through fire, I came out the other side.

I chased desire,

I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continue

to believe

that I'm the one for me.

And because I'm mine,

I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on back

a final destination

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart game.

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

I'm not the problem,

sometimes things fall apart.

And I continue

to believe

the best

people are free.

And it took some time,

But I'm finally fine

Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

a final destination

We've stopped asking directions

to places they've never been

And to be loved, we need to belong.

We'll finally find our way back home.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives bring,

we can do a heart again.

We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that.

We might get lost, but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions

in some places

they've never been.

And to be loved, we need to be known.

We'll finally find our way back on.

And through the joy and pain

that our lives

bring,

we can do hard things.

Yeah, we can do hard things.

Yeah, we

can do hard

things