Are You A Cool or Warm Person + What Does That Mean?

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Speaker 2 Welcome back to we can do hard things.

Speaker 2 Hey, everybody. Hi.

Speaker 3 So here. Hi.

Speaker 3 how are we doing? What are we doing?

Speaker 2 Well, every time we try to lighten things up, it never works. You guys are the worst.

Speaker 4 You two are the absolute worst.

Speaker 2 We are the worst.

Speaker 2 We are the worst. But here's the thing.

Speaker 2 I don't know why I can't be lighter. Like, I think I'm funny.

Speaker 2 I'm a funny person. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 So how come

Speaker 2 every time I start talking, I end up talking about trauma and death.

Speaker 3 Like, what?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 4 The problem is, is like, we're, okay, so pod squad, we're trying to do some QA, like rapid-fire QA just right now.

Speaker 4 Like, to lighten it, Glennon's gonna say the question, and we've just been sitting here looking at it, and she just is, she feels stumped because these questions aren't meaningful.

Speaker 2 Well, no, no, no, okay, here's really, it's because I'm making them too meaningful. Like, okay, Pod Squad,

Speaker 2 the first question is, what are you binging or streaming on

Speaker 2 the TV show? The TV right now. Okay,

Speaker 2 So that seems like a simple question, except I don't want to answer that because first of all, we're actually watching a show that I don't love right now. But I don't want to say that.

Speaker 2 I don't want to say I don't love a show. I don't want to

Speaker 3 hurt anybody's feelings.

Speaker 2 Hurt anybody's feelings. I don't want to start beef with a bunch of actors I don't even know trying to do the best they can with the writing that did the best they could.

Speaker 4 But also you have very, very, very high standards of which things we watch.

Speaker 2 I have one wild and precious life. Yeah.
I'm not wasting it on bad art.

Speaker 4 But I also then reminded you of another show that you're binging right now that you love.

Speaker 2 All capital letters. I do.
But like even that show makes me nervous to say because everyone has so many opinions about everything.

Speaker 2 And I feel like when I reveal something that I like, it says something about who I am that makes me scared.

Speaker 2 But I will tell you that right now I am watching for the third time

Speaker 2 all the way through the show Girls. People are allowed to have a pinch of opinions.

Speaker 2 Love that show. I know.
I love watching Hannah Horvath.

Speaker 2 She's one of my favorite characters of all time. I love Jessa and Marnie and Shoshana, and they are all a freaking mess.
And I just

Speaker 2 love it.

Speaker 4 Okay, but can we just go back to the thing that you said right before the girls?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That like whatever you say will be an indictment on who who you are.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 Just step into fucking all of that. And if people have feelings on shit that you like, they can go right on and fuck all the way off.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 4 Like for real. Because this is your life.
You get to appreciate and love and enjoy whatever you want.

Speaker 2 Thank you, babe.

Speaker 4 I don't understand. Like, it makes me crazy thinking that you have to worry about what what other people think.

Speaker 2 I know. You are amazing at that because you are a very embodied person.
And I am working on that. You're doing so good.

Speaker 2 I am working on thinking through my life and what I want to do only from my own brain. Yeah.
And not looking at myself from trying, which is an impossible task.

Speaker 2 to look at myself through a million other eyes and brains

Speaker 2 and shape-shift to become whatever it is I think other people will approve of.

Speaker 2 This is the work of my life and I'm doing it now.

Speaker 2 It is interesting to discover to save one's life, one needs to become embodied and think more about their own experience than other people's experiences of them.

Speaker 2 After that person has accidentally built an entire career

Speaker 2 on exposing themselves to other people and what other people will think of of them. So it's like suddenly becoming a vegan after you have created a meat packing empire.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I'm not saying it can't be done.

Speaker 2 I will find a way to do it, but that's how I'm experiencing my soul work right now compared to my

Speaker 2 world work is that they are sometimes really hard to do at the same time.

Speaker 4 Sister, what are you binging on streaming right now?

Speaker 5 I was going to ask you if I could ask some rapid-fire questions. You keep this going? Okay.

Speaker 5 Abby, what color brings you the most joy?

Speaker 4 Green.

Speaker 5 Gwenny. Blue.

Speaker 5 Yellow for me. What's your favorite place on earth, Abby?

Speaker 4 The Thousand Islands in Canada.

Speaker 2 My couch with my family. Only particular members of my family.

Speaker 3 I was like, I just pictured it.

Speaker 2 I just pictured it got a little crowded. Particular members members of my family who will not be named.

Speaker 5 I think Connecticut with my family in the summer. Abby, we know you don't have a tattoo and would never get one.
But if you had to, what would it be?

Speaker 4 That's the problem why I never got a tattoo is because I never could think of something I would want on my body forever. Right.

Speaker 2 But if you had to have something on your body forever, what would it be?

Speaker 4 I thought of this when I was younger, and I'm so glad that I decided not to, but I thought north, south, east, west, like the thing on like a compass.

Speaker 5 Or that thing.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, it's ridiculous. I'm so glad.
I love myself.

Speaker 5 Glennon, what do you value most in others?

Speaker 2 Maybe softness.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 I wouldn't have

Speaker 4 said that.

Speaker 3 I would not have guessed that.

Speaker 2 You wouldn't have said that for her? It could just be right now. I would not have guessed that.
I know. It also annoys me, softness, so I don't know.
But I do, you know, it's like...

Speaker 3 You value it both negatively and positively. It's a push-pull.

Speaker 2 Honesty too. Soft honesty.

Speaker 4 For me, authenticity.

Speaker 2 What does that mean to you?

Speaker 4 It means being who you are.

Speaker 2 Not acting? Okay.

Speaker 5 For me, it's help.

Speaker 3 Help.

Speaker 3 Huh.

Speaker 3 I value people who can help me.

Speaker 5 Cool. What does cool mean to you, Abby?

Speaker 4 It's going to sound so basic, but like people who are themselves are very, very cool.

Speaker 2 I don't like the word cool. I have bad feelings about the word cool.
I feel like cool means detached, distant, acting,

Speaker 2 like

Speaker 2 not vulnerable, separate, aloof. I've always wanted to be cool, but I have surrendered to being sweaty and hot and warm.

Speaker 5 Oh my God, that just reminded me. Okay, so Alice, like six months ago, was talking for the first time.
So she's in fourth grade.

Speaker 5 For the first time, She's noticing that there are like cool kids and not cool kids or cool kids and everyone else.

Speaker 5 I don't think she thinks they're not cool kids. I think she's just seen, oh, there's some cool kids around here.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 5 So she was talking to me and at first, and she's seems totally detached from the whole thing. She's just reporting it as fact.
And she's like,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 5 there's some cool kids.

Speaker 3 And I'm like, awesome. Great.

Speaker 5 And I said, like, what does that mean? And like, are you a cool kid?

Speaker 2 And she goes,

Speaker 5 no, no, no, no. I'm not cool.
I am,

Speaker 5 oh,

Speaker 5 I am warm.

Speaker 2 Yes, Alice.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 3 I have never

Speaker 3 thought about warm being the opposite of cool.

Speaker 3 Of course not. And that's what it is, right?

Speaker 5 Because warm is so vulnerable. You have to be like open to people.

Speaker 2 And like, here I am ready to receive receive you and be friends with you and here and not to disparage anyone cool but by definition they sure shit can't be warm that's right that's interesting I've never thought of that well we have talked about it in our family because we spent a lot of time defining people which is awful by whether they were cool cool warm cool cool warm or warm warm meaning this

Speaker 2 no do you remember this is just around yes and everyone in our family just vibes what your what your vibes are

Speaker 2 There are people who are cool on the outside, but really warm on the inside.

Speaker 2 Like, those are people that you wouldn't

Speaker 2 approach right away because you feel like they have an iron kind of

Speaker 3 strong exterior.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But then you discover when you get closer to them that they, their insides are just like gooey and mushy and whatever.

Speaker 2 There are some people who act gooey and mooey and gooey and like their outsides are warm. And then you get close and you're like, fuhh.

Speaker 2 And I don't know that it's necessarily bad and good. I don't think that's true.
It's just a way of being preference. Yeah.
And then and then there are people who are cold.

Speaker 4 Cold, cold.

Speaker 2 Cool, cool. So like, do you remember what we decided everybody was? Because this actually changes.

Speaker 2 What do you think you are?

Speaker 5 Warm, warm.

Speaker 2 You think you're warm, warm?

Speaker 3 I think you're cool.

Speaker 2 Abby's cool, warm.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 my exterior is stronger.

Speaker 5 Well, I just think it's like impossible to say you're not cool

Speaker 2 I don't know anymore like I know what you're saying that her look is cool yeah but her energy is not it's not her energy is the most approachable thing in the world yeah so I think

Speaker 2 her costume is cool

Speaker 2 her wrapping paper but like her energy

Speaker 2 is cool is warm and then her insides are warm. What would you say you are? I don't know.
I'm a great mystery to myself. What do you experience?

Speaker 3 If you could guess.

Speaker 2 I don't know. Just try.

Speaker 2 Okay. My guess is that my mask, my acting self is warm, warm.

Speaker 2 Maybe my truest self is a little cooler

Speaker 3 and then cool again.

Speaker 2 But not cool in like I have a lot of defenses. I think I have a lot of defenses.
I think I've told the story on the podcast before that I had a problem with another mom early on in school.

Speaker 2 Our kids were struggling and she,

Speaker 2 and I didn't know that they were struggling and she had known that they were struggling for a long time. And so when I found out, I said,

Speaker 3 why didn't you tell me?

Speaker 2 And she said, because you are unapproachable.

Speaker 2 And that hurt my feelings so much.

Speaker 2 And I actually

Speaker 2 called Liz that night and was

Speaker 2 very upset because I don't have a good grasp on how I'm perceived in the world. So that felt like such an indictment that I have been doing it all wrong.
And that,

Speaker 2 and I said to Liz, she's calling me unapproachable. And, and then Liz said, I don't understand what the problem is.

Speaker 2 Do you want to be approached?

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 2 no.

Speaker 3 And actually,

Speaker 2 she's probably right. Like when I would go to school with the kids, it reminds me me of the story you told about Alice at the race.
I was very, I wasn't there to socialize.

Speaker 2 Like I didn't, I didn't want to do the social scene at school. I just didn't.
When I was there, I wanted to be there for my kid. I wanted to get credit from my kid for showing up.

Speaker 2 I wanted my kid to have all my attention so that I would get all the moments.

Speaker 3 Really make it count.

Speaker 2 So I probably was sending out vibes that were like, I'm here for one reason and not to chat. I don't know.

Speaker 2 What do you think?

Speaker 4 And so, what did Liz say to you?

Speaker 2 She said,

Speaker 2 Good job. Good job.
You didn't want to be approachable, and you were told you were unapproachable.

Speaker 3 Well done.

Speaker 2 So, I don't know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that you outside of this house are cool, cool.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 And I think inside this house, you are

Speaker 3 warm.

Speaker 3 Warm. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 That's fine. That is how I I want to be.

Speaker 5 That is how you want to be.

Speaker 3 Good job. Yep.

Speaker 3 What about you?

Speaker 2 What about you, Sissy? What do you think you are?

Speaker 3 I think I'm warm, cool, warm. Time to tell us.

Speaker 4 That's three layers.

Speaker 3 I know. I didn't get it.
That's what I am.

Speaker 2 I get it, but go ahead. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I think I'm like, yeah, I'm so warm, so warm, so warm. And I want to be that.
But then you get a little layered and I'm like, whoa, bucko, that's a bridge too far. Take one full step back.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 5 And then

Speaker 5 through that layer in the inner sanctum is warm again.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So you just got to ride it out for like, you got to like, to get into that inner sanctum of warm, you got to really trudge through that coolness.

Speaker 5 You got to really ride through that stampede. And I'm, and near a few get through.

Speaker 4 Has anybody

Speaker 4 except your children, has

Speaker 4 and John, obviously.

Speaker 3 But like, we actually were talking about this yesterday.

Speaker 4 What was I saying?

Speaker 4 I asked you if you were good at making connect if you felt like you were good at connecting with people with people.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Deeply.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I said, I think

Speaker 2 when I want to connect with someone and I feel like they are a safe,

Speaker 2 interesting, like,

Speaker 2 match,

Speaker 2 then I think I am good at it. Yeah.
But I don't try to be good at it as often as maybe other people do. I don't want to do it all the time.
Yeah. It's very tiring to me.
And it like,

Speaker 2 and it is, it's important.

Speaker 2 It doesn't feel like

Speaker 2 something that you should just be going around doing all the time. Yeah.

Speaker 5 It feels wise to be very selective about that.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 It's like a value.

Speaker 2 Are you good at opening your front door? I am good at opening my front door when I have invited someone over. Yes.
Right. When it's deliberate and intentional and I feel safe and good about it.

Speaker 2 That's what I open the door.

Speaker 5 That's very good.

Speaker 5 Do you want to hear from Anna?

Speaker 2 I want to hear from Anna. That's exactly what I woke up thinking this morning.
Hello, my name is Anna.

Speaker 6 I wanted to call first to thank you for sharing your personal experiences.

Speaker 6 Your stories bring these topics to life in ways that help me look at my own past and see important patterns I did not yet know how to name.

Speaker 6 I am several months into a burnout-induced radical, And thanks to you, I can now say that I am in the desert and without my puzzles. So thank you.

Speaker 6 My question is related to your episode on self-regulating and healing relationships, which had me crying on the train as I recognize so many things you described.

Speaker 6 I am curious to hear your thoughts on how to balance regulating oneself and establishing boundaries, two things that I understand are my responsibility.

Speaker 6 When is it reasonable to decide that I just don't have the energy to maintain certain relationships? Again, thank you so much, and I look forward to future episodes.

Speaker 5 This is like varsity-level shit, because

Speaker 5 don't you think it's like once you get through the first level

Speaker 5 of figuring your stuff out,

Speaker 5 then you're at the second level. It's that

Speaker 5 Anis quote, or how do you say the name of like Aniasnin?

Speaker 5 Yeah, Aniasnin of you don't see the world as it is.

Speaker 5 You see it as you are. You don't see people as they are.
You see people as you are. So

Speaker 5 that is true.

Speaker 5 So you get to this place where you're like, okay.

Speaker 5 She's talking about her relationships. Like, when does she decide if she doesn't have the energy to maintain certain relationships? You get to, you can get into a real like cyclical abyss.

Speaker 5 Because if you're like, okay, I'm in this relationship, I don't like the energy of this relationship. Then you start thinking,

Speaker 5 okay, but I'm in this relationship, and I'm seeing this other person in this relationship, and I'm seeing the entire relationship as I am.

Speaker 5 So, is there a different

Speaker 5 thing that I could be bringing to this

Speaker 5 that would change this whole thing?

Speaker 5 And you can get super into trying to do that

Speaker 3 to

Speaker 5 the detriment of something else that is equally important, which is

Speaker 5 not

Speaker 5 denying

Speaker 5 the feelings of your body and the knowings of your body that like are saying no to this.

Speaker 5 So when your body is saying no to this,

Speaker 5 is it saying no to this because of the way that you're seeing this thing, which you need to be sure you can rely on? Or is it saying no to this because in fact, no to this?

Speaker 3 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 So this is this, when she's talking about regulating, that's what I think, regulating like I am

Speaker 5 grounded in knowing that I am seeing this

Speaker 5 clearly without the neuroses that I'm going to take into every next friendship. Because if you're taking the next everything

Speaker 5 into every relationship that you're in, which you are, then you want to make sure the person that's showing up in that relationship, who is you, is seeing things with clarity and with health and with a regulated nervous system.

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Speaker 4 I just have

Speaker 4 a question because I feel

Speaker 4 a little confused by this, only that, like, what is the relationship she's trying to make between regulating oneself and establishing boundaries, do you think?

Speaker 2 Oh, I get it completely. Because can you explain? All right, let's take it to what is regulating.
We're all just trying to feel better. We're all just trying to feel

Speaker 2 a bit of peace, a bit of calm, a bit of joy.

Speaker 3 Is it like homeostasis?

Speaker 2 Yes. Regulation to me means there is a state of being

Speaker 2 that is not a trauma response.

Speaker 3 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 3 I'm told. Apparently.

Speaker 2 I believe it. I've had glimpses.
Okay.

Speaker 5 There's also several planets in the solar system.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 5 Never seen them.

Speaker 2 This thing exists.

Speaker 2 Mermaids, unicorns, and regulated nervous systems. Okay.

Speaker 2 There is a state of being that is more peaceful, more joyful, more loving.

Speaker 2 It's clarity.

Speaker 2 It's

Speaker 2 the dream.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 2 What I have learned is that when we don't know how to do that for ourselves, we use other people.

Speaker 2 To me, what she's saying is, How do I know

Speaker 2 if I'm

Speaker 2 creating boundaries based on my regulated,

Speaker 2 real, clear self.

Speaker 2 Or I'm just using these other people to regulate myself. Wow.
Okay. So, for example, people pleasing.
We all think,

Speaker 2 people actually claim people, I think that people claim being people pleasers in a way that's almost

Speaker 2 valorous. Like, I just like making people happy.
But what people pleasing is at the end is it's using other people to get off. Okay.
That it is.

Speaker 4 To regulate, you mean?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Or to get the dopamine or to get the hit.
It's other people's approval of me is a drug that I need.

Speaker 2 And so I am using you to get what I need and your approval of me

Speaker 2 to feed my addiction.

Speaker 5 That brings me to the bottom. Which is not actually what I need, but it's the thing I think I need more than the thing I actually need.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And you're using other people's and like the kindness of yourself as a shield.

Speaker 2 Yes. There's no real connection in it.
There's no love. There's no whatever.
It's actually like you might as well be

Speaker 4 a bottle of pills. Yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 2 Well, no, if it's people pleasing, that's what I mean.

Speaker 4 I know, but I am a people pleaser. And I've talked about this with my therapist a lot.
I'm for sure a people pleaser. And I'm for sure I use it in an addictive way at times.

Speaker 4 But there's also another part of me that is really truly like the caretaking isn't about me.

Speaker 4 And so I think both can be true at the same time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess for me,

Speaker 2 I would say that part of you that is so beautiful, that it wants to serve, that wants to care, that cares about community and other people, that's not, that's separate for me than people pleasing.

Speaker 2 To me, people pleasing.

Speaker 5 If it's coming from a genuine place, it by definition is not people pleasing.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 Because your end is not

Speaker 4 people pleasing.

Speaker 5 Your end is to honor the part of you

Speaker 5 that values the serving.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's like confusing people people pleasing with caretaking. So they're very close.
They're abutted next to each other.

Speaker 3 Totally.

Speaker 2 So when everyone's talking about these days the regulation of the nervous system,

Speaker 2 I think it can be tricky because we all want healing and wellness to be this individual project that we can do by ourselves in our house and be set, right?

Speaker 2 Like that is the lie of wellness, that we can just like get a few tricks up our sleeve, get a few machines, get a few diet or whatever.

Speaker 2 Shockingly, all these things cost money and people benefit from them, but like that

Speaker 2 wellness is this individual purification process that we can do on our own, which of course whiteness is all tied up into and power.

Speaker 2 And the fact that if we do it that way, that's convenient for status quo because there is no collective liberation in that

Speaker 2 we can achieve wellness and never talk to another human being never leave our house never enter the struggle of collective liberation in any way quite convenient plus corporations can make all the money off of that version of wellness what i have found in my own life which is all i can say

Speaker 2 is that there is like this weird symbiotic chicken and an egg situation here that you cannot separate. That like, yes, there is work that I have to do in my own body, in my own breathing, in my own

Speaker 2 work and therapy to get to a state where I can see people and things more clearly.

Speaker 2 So that I know, like with what Anna's saying, if I feel like I don't have the energy to maintain certain relationships, is that because of the relationship? Is that because of the other person?

Speaker 2 Is that because of me? Doesn't matter. Signal that I have some work to do and some stuff to figure out.

Speaker 2 What What I want to do every day is every time I have a problem with another person, I want to go in, I want to work it out, I want to say all the words, I want to go, go, go, go, go.

Speaker 2 This has not

Speaker 2 worked well for me. This has stopped working for me.

Speaker 2 What usually is the case for me lately is that

Speaker 2 the problem might be the same. Like it might be the case case that this relationship doesn't work for me.
It might be the case that,

Speaker 2 but it keeps being that if I resist the urge to

Speaker 2 say all the things right away and instead sit with it, regulate myself,

Speaker 2 it usually

Speaker 2 becomes clear

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 it's not, it's often not a conversation that I need to have. It's just a little tweak in how I'm approaching that relationship.

Speaker 2 I don't know how to explain it other than that, that it's it's that my side of the street thing back again and again and again. It's the Al-Anon work.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's all, all of what that is, is what she's saying. Is it you? Is it me? Does it matter?

Speaker 2 That every time we get a signal that somebody else is fucking us up,

Speaker 2 it's a signal that we have some work to do to become less fuckwithable.

Speaker 4 To give away our power so easily.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like that, that Al-Anon idea of like, I got some stuff to work out with that person and it's probably not with that person.

Speaker 2 Like it's probably something that I have to work on internally or

Speaker 2 so.

Speaker 5 The bad. Is that different than emotional divestment? Because what I hear that everything you're saying makes perfect sense to me.

Speaker 5 And I also know that one of my struggles with intimacy is that

Speaker 5 once there is an issue, I'm like a little squirrel that like runs and gets the issue and picks up the acorn and runs away and like stares at the acorn and studies the acorn and figures out what the issue is and whatever.

Speaker 5 And then like

Speaker 5 it's

Speaker 5 mine.

Speaker 5 I work it out with myself and potentially will come back and like, come back and be like, present the A chord to the other person and be like, well, we had a situation. Here's it is.

Speaker 5 I'm explaining to you. Let me show you the A chord.
That's the thing. Instead of working it out with the person,

Speaker 5 which allows it to be an actual live relationship working, talking about the thing.

Speaker 2 So like,

Speaker 2 both of us are avoiding vulnerability then. So like just in opposite ways.
Like you're like, I don't want to be vulnerable with this person in the moment.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to go and solve this shit and then come back to you. Yeah.
Energetically, that's why I will not involve you in solving this problem with you.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I'm in a relationship with myself presenting to you the relationship.

Speaker 2 Yes. And I'm like coming in, guns blazing, saying, and by the way, the guns blazing could be just all love and concern.
It's not like I'm fighting, but I'm coming in like,

Speaker 2 let's do this. Let's figure this out.

Speaker 2 That is still avoiding vulnerability because there's no moment of like wait I just feel a little uncomfortable and I'm trying to figure out what's going on here do you feel like something's going on here

Speaker 2 it's like inviting someone into a journey you need to take in a voltage together in a vulnerable way only people

Speaker 2 people

Speaker 2 can only do that

Speaker 2 if they are regulated themselves. Vulnerability,

Speaker 2 which everyone talks about all the time,

Speaker 2 has been construed to mean this thing where you just show up like all bloody and gutsy and like say whatever the fuck you want and brutal honesty and all of that.

Speaker 2 But I think to be truly vulnerable, you have to be so steady and like centered in yourself.

Speaker 2 You have to enter a conversation and be strong enough to know that whatever happens in that conversation is not going to destroy you because you've got you.

Speaker 4 And that you don't have control over.

Speaker 3 No, you don't have to have control. Like with sister specifically,

Speaker 4 I think she wants to gain control and understanding before going back and presenting her case to whomever. You,

Speaker 4 when you go into a situation guns and blazing, you already have the outcome. You've already figured it out from the beginning to the end.

Speaker 3 Or so do I.

Speaker 5 That's the point of taking the acorn away and studying it so to come back and present it.

Speaker 3 Exactly the same thing.

Speaker 4 So I think underneath this vulnerability thing is this real fear of losing control.

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I, my, Liz always says to me, I'm, I want to talk about this thing and I have no cherished outcome.

Speaker 2 I think there's something to that. It's like, if you're in struggle with somebody, then by definition, you must admit that it's not just about you.

Speaker 2 that somebody else gets to bring their full self and their agenda and their whatever. And if you are both surrendered to the ending being something that you have not even thought of yet,

Speaker 2 because that's the only

Speaker 2 possible outcome. If you're both bringing two vulnerable different ideas, you are going to end up with something if you're doing it right that you couldn't even dream of on your own.

Speaker 2 But it's surrendering to a process. And to me, that's what embodiment is.
It's like

Speaker 2 something happens and being like,

Speaker 2 Okay, wait, can we just slow this down? Because I feel like energetically something's weird and I feel uncomfortable. And

Speaker 2 can we just talk about it? It's like so in the moment,

Speaker 2 which I am starting to be able to do. And what I would say is that it's some kind of fucking magic trick.

Speaker 2 It is some kind of effing magic trick. And Alex, my dear friend, Alex Hadison, has been trying to tell me about this magic trick forever.
She's been trying to teach me what vulnerability actually is.

Speaker 2 And it is not just showing up and saying all of your sad feelings.

Speaker 2 It's an in-body experience of I am available for whatever you need to bring to me.

Speaker 2 I can handle it.

Speaker 2 We can figure this out moment to moment.

Speaker 4 And also I'm going to deliver moment to moment in real time what's happening inside of me.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, but it's, there's no,

Speaker 2 the point for Anna, for me is there's no answer to, do I get my shit together and then establish my boundaries? Or do I establish my boundaries so I can get my shit together? There's no clear that.

Speaker 2 It's like pain

Speaker 2 happens in relationship. Brokenness happens in relationship.
So healing, tragically, must happen also in relationship.

Speaker 2 But there's this individual work that we can do that allows us to enter, that makes us strong enough and centered enough to enter into these relational conflicts in a new, fresh way that result in new, fresh results.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 We can do our things is brought to you by Bumble, the app committed to bring people closer to love. I went through it in my first marriage.

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Speaker 5 And maybe it's one of the clues

Speaker 5 that you are doing

Speaker 5 both of those.

Speaker 5 Because she said, which I understand are my responsibility. Both of those things are my responsibility.
The regulating, getting balance in her regulation of herself and establishing boundaries.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 maybe the way to know that you are taking responsibility for that,

Speaker 5 both of those things in the relationship, is if you are not,

Speaker 5 when you're really honest with yourself, you are not

Speaker 5 going to the other person

Speaker 5 saying like,

Speaker 5 save me, save me, save me. Whether that's like,

Speaker 5 I'm really upset, we need to talk about this now because then you're using that other person to make yourself unups.

Speaker 2 That's right. That's right.

Speaker 5 Or you have to talk to me right now because I know I'm feeling off, and the only thing that's going to help me not feel off is to speak with you about it.

Speaker 5 That by definition, you're not doing your responsibility. And the reverse: if someone is coming to you with that frantic, panicked energy of using you

Speaker 5 bring themselves down to a regulated place,

Speaker 5 then that's, they're not taking their responsibility either.

Speaker 2 It's just a bunch of people using each other to regulate themselves. And that is what we must not do if we want to have real relationship.

Speaker 2 I just want to give you a quick example in my real life of something I noticed that it's a simple example of this, but so our youngest plays soccer and she, I get anxious about her on the field because she is now playing against all these big big people.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 anyway, this stuff happens and she falls. And sometimes they're faking it in soccer.

Speaker 2 It's just like a lot to understand as a mama on the sidelines and when I'm supposed to be upset, when I'm, sometimes she's like actually calling for help from the field.

Speaker 2 But really, it's just this, I don't even know what it is, but I don't know when I'm supposed to be upset, when I'm supposed to be worried. And my nervous system doesn't know for sure.
You know, like,

Speaker 2 look after her, look after her. Don't look after her.
Don't look after her. It's the credit card machine again.
So

Speaker 2 we were sitting at the table and we were talking about

Speaker 2 the fact that when Abby used to get hurt on the field, she would have a little signal to her mom, but she'd sneak it at the bottom. Like

Speaker 2 she'd be laying down on the field, acting like she's about to die. But then she'd put up her thumb

Speaker 2 a little bit so her mom could see this secret thumb thing that was like, it's okay, mom, I'm cool.

Speaker 4 And that I'm not hurt. I'm just laying here for extra long, A, to catch my breath, and B, to maybe like gain some favor with the referee.
Maybe this foul.

Speaker 4 Maybe they'll give that other player a yellow card or something. It's all gamesmanship stuff that happens in the soccer field.

Speaker 2 So gamesmanship means lying.

Speaker 3 No, but it is not.

Speaker 2 It's just like it's pursuing your highest.

Speaker 5 What is it? Pursuing your highest advantage.

Speaker 3 Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So lying.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I was saying to Emma, I've caught myself saying, so so maybe let's have a signal for me.

Speaker 2 And then I realized Amanda's job on the soccer field is to play the best game of soccer she can with her full self. Amanda's job is not, nor has it ever been, to regulate her mother's nervous system.

Speaker 2 That is my work.

Speaker 2 This is a very simple example. of me, I was using my daughter in the middle of your thing, can you also add this other thing that will help my my nervous system calm down? That is not her work, right?

Speaker 2 When parents cannot regulate, do not know how to regulate, do not know all the things that they need to do, which by the way, it is not

Speaker 2 just breathing and doing your vagal nerve shit, which you should do and help.

Speaker 3 Vagus.

Speaker 2 Whatever it is. Your vagus nerve, is that what it is? It feels not right.
Because like vagus.

Speaker 3 I feel like it's like vagal.

Speaker 3 V-A-G-U-S.

Speaker 2 Vagus. Vegas?

Speaker 3 It's Vegas nerve.

Speaker 4 Okay. But maybe I'm wrong.
It could be Vagal, I guess.

Speaker 2 The point being, it's also about knowing yourself. It's also about the self.
F-A-G-U-S. Vegas.
What happens in the Vegas nerve?

Speaker 3 Affects everybody.

Speaker 5 Okay. What happens in the Vegas nerve stays in the Vegas nerve.

Speaker 2 It's about a lot of things. It's about doing your work, knowing yourself, knowing when you're putting your shit on other people, et cetera, et cetera.
But

Speaker 2 the point is

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 it gets dangerous

Speaker 2 to create a life when we are using other human beings to regulate our nervous systems.

Speaker 2 And it is parents' job

Speaker 2 to do what they need to do to

Speaker 2 take care of their own nervous systems. and reactions so that they are not using their children to make them less anxious, less angry, less whatever.

Speaker 2 That feels like the first thing we should be taught as parents, right?

Speaker 2 It should be the first thing we're taught as parents, that it is not those children's responsibility to make you feel better. Let's hear from Brandy.
Hi, my name is Brandy,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 7 my maybe question slash comment regarding the recent podcast regarding kind of busyness and

Speaker 7 I relate a lot to Amanda and how she's worked through this.

Speaker 7 And I think there was brought up the idea of what is, what are we all so afraid of. What I didn't hear discuss and I guess for me is such a motivating factor for the busyness and productivity

Speaker 7 is sort of the fear, the FOMO, the fear of missing out, of not really, you know, like sucking the marrow out of your life.

Speaker 7 And also,

Speaker 7 I work in the hospice and palliative medicine field and I'm with people at end of life.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 it's a beautiful job and it has left me with some fears of not living my life fully. And I think there's also this piece of

Speaker 7 how do we incorporate rest, relaxation, enjoyment as fulfillment as opposed to just

Speaker 7 those big life events that we hear about at end of life.

Speaker 7 So I'd love to hear that discussed or hear your thoughts on that. Thank you so much for all you do.
Bye.

Speaker 5 I love love this. Do you think

Speaker 5 what Brandy is saying is

Speaker 5 on one side

Speaker 5 of things, we want to live the biggest life we can with the most rich experiences, and we want to like go for what's the biggest, most adventuresome life so we won't have regrets.

Speaker 5 And how do we

Speaker 5 incorporate the idea of rest and relaxation as something

Speaker 5 that is not

Speaker 5 at the detriment of having a big life,

Speaker 5 but is part of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess it's just like

Speaker 2 there's a lot of pre-framing, even in that question.

Speaker 2 It's like,

Speaker 2 what does a big life mean, and who has taught us that? And why is rest, relaxation, joy, and pleasure something that is in contrast to whatever that big life is.

Speaker 2 Like it makes me suspicious that what we have been sold is a big life, a big important life

Speaker 2 has to do with climbing a ladder, being

Speaker 2 visible, being famous, being

Speaker 2 well-known, being important.

Speaker 2 And then that feels suspicious to me because that's exactly the story I would tell if I were trying to create a capitalistic culture. That, like, if I show you you the big prize is this thing,

Speaker 2 then you will think that's what a big life is. It's just funny that

Speaker 2 that is

Speaker 3 the goal.

Speaker 2 Like, if we don't think it through intentionally, then we just soak up the culture's idea. And so, of course, we would think that.

Speaker 2 It's really confusing when you start to be meeting all of those people

Speaker 2 and you realize that

Speaker 2 I would say that this is maybe controversial, I don't know, but like Abby and I talk a lot about how

Speaker 2 sometimes it feels to me like the more outwardly successful a person is,

Speaker 2 the less happy they are. And like, I really have experienced that in some ways

Speaker 2 and over and over again.

Speaker 2 Is it because what actually constitutes a big life,

Speaker 2 meaning joyful satisfaction, I guess, contentedness.

Speaker 2 We're told over and over again by anyone who studies it that it's not this thing we think it is, that it's relationships, it's rest, it's relaxation, it's the joy in the little things, it's whatever.

Speaker 2 That

Speaker 2 perhaps

Speaker 2 if we switched them,

Speaker 2 If we made the big part of our life this other things,

Speaker 2 the little things, the relationships, the enoughness, the

Speaker 2 walks with our dogs, the things that we can actually remember bringing us joy,

Speaker 2 that maybe,

Speaker 2 I mean, truly, that's what I have the biggest FOMO about. Yeah.
For sure.

Speaker 2 That is the only FOMO I have is like, in trying to get this other thing that was never actually going to make me happy, did I miss the thing that was right in front of my face, which is what

Speaker 2 everyone who's ever studied joy or happiness tries to tell us, right? That it's not the mountaintop moments that we're told. It's the like everyday, delicious, accessible.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I also just think that it depends on how you're framing it. Like to me, when you make me a coffee and you hand it to me in the morning, That feels like a mountaintop moment for me.

Speaker 4 And it's bringing into focus an appreciation of the stuff that actually matters to you. And I think that what Brandy is trying to talk about too, is through the lens of the end of life in mind.

Speaker 4 And I think that, I think that it's easy to get busy when life is busy and things are happening. And,

Speaker 4 but trying to define what are the things

Speaker 4 that are the most important.

Speaker 4 that bring you the most fulfillment and contentment. Like for me, it gives me such a rush to like cross off something off of my bucket list every year to do.

Speaker 4 Like whether it's like travel to, I don't know where with my family or do some sort of

Speaker 4 challenge. I don't know.
Like to me, that's

Speaker 4 even though it feels like a, like a, I'm being sold a bill of goods, like I do like. accomplishing things so that when I do get to the end of my life, I will be able to say, I had

Speaker 3 both.

Speaker 4 I don't think that it's wrong to be in search of

Speaker 4 adventure and,

Speaker 4 you know,

Speaker 2 just knowing yourself.

Speaker 5 I think the dichotomy here is like, Brandy, which makes total sense in terms of our conditioning. She's like,

Speaker 5 do I

Speaker 5 suck the marrow out of life and have the greatest experiences? Or do I allow myself to rest? And where can I find the balance? And it's like, no, you suck the marrow out of life.

Speaker 3 Done.

Speaker 5 The question is, what is the marrow of life to you?

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 5 And no one wants you to compromise on sucking the marrow out of the life, but sucking the marrow out of life can look like

Speaker 5 spending most of your time on the beach with a book by yourself. Or it can look like being in conversation with your kids.
Or it can look like... bungee jumping off of every bridge in the universe.

Speaker 5 Like, what is your marrow? And that is why it's not

Speaker 5 easy.

Speaker 5 I used to have the Hunter Thompson quote where he says, life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, wow, what a ride.

Speaker 4 Yes.

Speaker 2 Written like a true drug addict trying to justify their.

Speaker 5 But I don't, I used to think like, and I was like, yes, that is correct. That is correct.
And then I was like, do I have to dispose of that way of thinking

Speaker 5 because I'm not trying to sprint up the mountains? No.

Speaker 5 What about

Speaker 5 sucking the marrow out of life? What is relationship other than being thoroughly used up, totally worn out

Speaker 5 and saying, wow, what a ride. Like, it's not either or.
That is about the marrow. And we just have a very narrow branding of what is adventure and what is the marrow of life.
And

Speaker 5 I don't think we have to accept that. I think we can be pretty banged up and used up and thrilled and having really fulfilled our adventure in a lot of different paths of life.

Speaker 2 It's good. Amen.
What is your marrow? That is so good. Yes, we all agree.
Emerson. Thoreau.
I think it was Thoreau.

Speaker 2 We should suck the marrow. If

Speaker 2 If we don't think hard, and maybe it's not even thinking, if we don't notice what actually brings us joy,

Speaker 2 then we will default to what the culture tells us will. The culture will tell us the marrow is achieve, achieve, achieve, climb, climb, climb, be visible, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 Hustle.

Speaker 2 But what I suspect is that when most of us

Speaker 2 actually

Speaker 2 notice, what brings us joy, it won't be that. It might be for some, but I, in similar vein, and we've mentioned this before, I think of it every day.

Speaker 2 What is your marrow is very similar to what we say over and over again to people, the Mary Oliver quote, what is it that you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?

Speaker 2 And that is used to make people feel shame that they aren't doing enough with their life. But what Jessica Kantrowitz wrote a poem about, and I think about all the time, is that actually

Speaker 2 If you read that full poem, what Mary Oliver was saying is, because I only have this one wild and precious life, I will sit on this grass all afternoon and watch this one grasshopper eat this blade of grass.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Because I have only one wild and precious life.

Speaker 5 Because I am so determined to suck the marrow out of life, I will sit here and watch this fucking miracle that no one is taking the time to watch.

Speaker 2 And because her personally, like when you read her work over and over again, you understand that what brought her, what her marrow was, was being alone in nature and then working things out with her partner, which is relating the two.

Speaker 2 Solitude, nature, my partner, like art.

Speaker 2 Right? So she,

Speaker 2 her marrow, because I have only one wild and precious life, I will do

Speaker 2 what looks to the world like nothing

Speaker 2 because life is too important

Speaker 2 to do something different than nothing.

Speaker 4 I think we've got a really good idea for another tripod podcast and to really think about and discuss what is our own individual marrow.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that's the work of life, you know, it's like and comes back to embodiment. Yeah.

Speaker 2 If you don't, if you're not in your body and you don't know what brings you joy, how the fuck can you figure out what your marrow is?

Speaker 4 Could you, off the top of your head, like ring off five things that are in your marrow?

Speaker 2 Yes. I've talked to my therapist about this so much because

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 have this idea in my mind that I am supposed to want and go to and do these things that

Speaker 2 look like fancy, that look like achievement, that look like making it out in the world. Okay.

Speaker 2 And what I try to explain to her is

Speaker 2 there's a part of me that is hungry for that.

Speaker 2 Okay, so when I see it, I'm like, oh God, I should be doing that. I should go to that freaking awards.
I should go to that banquet. I should be in that room.
I should want that show.

Speaker 2 I should whatever.

Speaker 2 And I'm hungry for something there, I think. And then if I go, it's like I sit down and notice that all of the food being served is like that plastic food that they show on advertisements.

Speaker 2 Like, it's like I'm hungry for something, but whatever it is is not there.

Speaker 2 It's It's a version of it that makes us, for me, maybe it feeds some other people, maybe it really does. And I'm not judging that life in general.

Speaker 2 What is true for me, even if I should want those things, even if I'm lucky to be there, even if other people would want those things,

Speaker 2 is that I am happier

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 in my house on my couch any day of the week. The things that are supposed to be big, big joys

Speaker 2 never bring me as much joy as the things that are little, little joys.

Speaker 2 And that is just the truth of things. But like

Speaker 2 there's still that moment where I have to say, no, thank you. I just would rather be on my couch.
I've learned I don't have to say that second part.

Speaker 2 And then giving up a thing that other people are supposed to want. is what Brandy is saying because she's saying, how do you deal with the fear of missing out?

Speaker 2 And I still have that FOMO, but what I remind myself is what I'm missing out on is something that maybe feeds other people but doesn't feed me.

Speaker 2 So I'm more scared of missing out on the thing that I know that feeds me, even if it looks weird to other people.

Speaker 4 Amazing. I'm impressed by all of you.

Speaker 4 Just so the pod squad knows, when we go into these Q ⁇ As, we have like five, sometimes six. cues that the pod squad has sent in.
We only ever get to two.

Speaker 4 only ever

Speaker 3 and i just

Speaker 4 i just think you guys are very good talkers oh babe i think you're a very good talker

Speaker 4 i don't know i don't know about all the shoulds of the world but i just am so grateful to be able to do this with y'all

Speaker 2 same sees same sees pod squad Thank you for creating a place where we can stay on our couch, still be connected with you, and share our low, so many thoughts.

Speaker 2 We love you. We'll see you back here next time.

Speaker 3 Bye. Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

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Speaker 2 While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.