Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson!

Speaker 1 Here's something that surprised me. 72% of Americans overestimate how much life insurance costs.
We just assume it's way out of reach, expensive, like, well, everything is these days.

Speaker 1 That's why I love what Policy Genius is doing. It's not an insurance company, it's a marketplace that makes finding and buying life insurance fast, easy, and actually affordable.

Speaker 1 With Policy Genius, real users have gotten 20-year, $2 million policies for just $53 a month.

Speaker 1 You go online, answer a few questions, and Policy Genius compares quotes from top insurers so you can see all your options laid out clearly.

Speaker 1 Coverage amounts, prices, terms, no fine print games, just clarity. And if you need help, the license agents walk you through everything step by step.

Speaker 1 They'll answer questions, handle paperwork, and make sure you get what fits you. Secure your family's future with Policy Genius.

Speaker 1 Head to policygenius.com to compare life insurance quotes from top top companies and see how much you could save. That's policygenius.com.

Speaker 4 Welcome, Pod Squad. We have a very, very, very special treat for you today.
We are joined in this podcast by none other than Justice Katanjay Brown Jackson.

Speaker 4 She received her undergraduate and law degrees both with honors from Harvard University, served as a law clerk for three federal judges, practiced law in the private sector as commissioner to the U.S.

Speaker 4 Sentencing Commission, and as an assistant federal public defender. President Obama nominated Justice Jackson to the U.S.
District Court for the District of Columbia.

Speaker 4 Elevated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit in 2021.
Justice Jackson made history in 2022 when President Biden nominated her as an associate justice.

Speaker 4 One of only 115 people in history to have that job and the only black woman ever to have that job. She was confirmed to the Supreme Court of the United States and took her seat on July 30, 2022.

Speaker 4 Her new memoir, Lovely One, is available. today

Speaker 4 and it is absolutely beautiful and very special.

Speaker 4 And thank you for having

Speaker 4 giving us your time today. I know it's precious and you don't have it to give.

Speaker 2 So thank you. I am delighted to be here.
Thank you so much. And thank you for that lovely introduction.

Speaker 4 Oh, my goodness. Your story

Speaker 4 is.

Speaker 4 It's just swirling in our heads right now. And it's so beautiful.
And

Speaker 4 we were talking about kind of the themes of your life that we're so excited to talk about today. And it's this story of just undistracted striving.
Just

Speaker 3 your whole, the whole way through at every aspect.

Speaker 4 And then this like

Speaker 4 really fascinating

Speaker 4 inquiry into expectations, like of

Speaker 4 at every round with your family,

Speaker 4 your family you were born into and the family you're making. And I'm just,

Speaker 4 let's do it all. Okay.

Speaker 3 Let us begin.

Speaker 5 We'd love to start with the story about that dramatic day at the pool.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 5 When you were young. Yes.
And what happened in that moment? Yes.

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 gosh, I was young. I was in probably either mid to late elementary school.

Speaker 2 And I had been taking swimming lessons for a couple of years. My mother really insisted upon it.

Speaker 2 One of the things I talk about in the book is how my mother and my father both grew up in Miami during a time of segregation where

Speaker 2 black people really were not allowed to swim in public pools or get ordinary swimming lessons in public facilities. And so my parents really weren't trained to swim.

Speaker 2 And when I was born in 1970, which was right after the civil rights movement,

Speaker 2 I got the benefit of all of the opening of society that the civil rights movement was all about.

Speaker 2 That was my generation and every pool was open. Every

Speaker 2 black student or child could do what they wanted. And so my parents wanted me to do everything.

Speaker 2 So I took swimming lessons and I loved to float on my back. That was my big thing, you know, with the sun on my face and just kind of calm and serene.
And I was doing this

Speaker 2 at a pool during a pool party. My mother was a teacher and her teacher friends were having some sort of gathering and a barbecue and all the families were running around.

Speaker 2 And I decided I was going to get in the pool and I would, the kids were playing, the other kids were playing in the shallow end, splashing around, and I wanted to float.

Speaker 2 So I went over to the deep end but thought I'll be, you know, close to the edge in case I needed needed it.

Speaker 2 And I started floating and I got kind of out into the middle and I looked looked and saw I was too far away from the edge and I panicked.

Speaker 2 And I basically just flailed around and sunk to the bottom of the pool. And I might have been under not too long, but my mother looked around and noticed that I was there.

Speaker 2 And one of her teacher friends jumped in the water fully clothed and brought me up. It was very dramatic.
But I was so disappointed in myself because I knew how to swim.

Speaker 2 And I don't know why I had, you know, given in to the doubts or, you know, treated it in the way that I had.

Speaker 2 And it was sort of like a life lesson for me, I think, that I really just felt like from now on, you know, I'm not going to allow my fears to get in the way of what it is I'm trying to accomplish.

Speaker 2 And it was something in the book of a metaphor for, as

Speaker 2 Amanda was saying, how I sort of lived my life

Speaker 3 from that point on.

Speaker 4 You were in the deep end from that point on forever.

Speaker 4 You've never been in the shallow since.

Speaker 5 Which is so beautiful because you can handle the deep end if you remember that you know how to swim. That's right.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 3 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 4 Your parents had a philosophy, really,

Speaker 2 to

Speaker 4 keep you undistracted from messages of the world that might

Speaker 4 wrongly suggest something about you that wasn't true. So you talk about the danger of soft expectations, that

Speaker 4 they didn't let you watch certain TV shows or anything that might put you in a frame of who you were.

Speaker 4 I guess I'm just wondering, did you actually not know that people had different expectations of you?

Speaker 4 Or was that strategy of like, we're just just not even gonna look over there, we're gonna stay right here where we know who we are?

Speaker 4 What did that do for you?

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I think it really helped to shore up my self-esteem. Um, my parents, again, you know, so much of this is about their

Speaker 2 time growing up and their

Speaker 2 background and experiences. They grew up in this in the segregated south and

Speaker 2 felt very strongly that they wanted me not to internalize any sort of negative perception of myself or black people or whatever.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 they had a sense of that happening if I was just totally exposed to society in the way that they had been.

Speaker 2 So when I grew up, for example, they were very interested in me focusing on educational television shows. My parents, by the way, were both teachers

Speaker 2 when they graduated from, they went to historically black universities, each of them, different ones, and then came to Washington, D.C.

Speaker 2 And I was born in Washington, D.C., where they were both public school teachers. And so they obviously valued education.
They poured themselves into me in terms of my education, but they also,

Speaker 2 as I said, really wanted to eliminate what they thought would be negative influences, cultural signals that suggested that black people were not as intelligent or as worthy or anything like that.

Speaker 2 So, you know, they focused my attention on Sesame Street and the Electric Company and

Speaker 2 multicultural dynamic shows where there are kids from different walks of life.

Speaker 2 Mr.

Speaker 2 Rogers was a big one because he was so kind and thoughtful and we learned lots of manners and things, but they didn't particularly want me to watch cultural shows at the time that didn't have any representations of African Americans or people of different races because they felt that those might give subtle signals of inferiority that would undermine my self-esteem.

Speaker 2 So I talk about that.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And what does, I think it was your grandmother who said, those people have nothing to do with your life.
To dwell on the unfairness of life is to be devoured by it.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 your father developed the curriculum for African-American studies at it within DC.

Speaker 4 So there's this, I'm wondering about this balance of like, how do we learn enough about our history and our struggle and what is true since the culture isn't going to tell us what's true

Speaker 4 while not centering that and becoming devoured by that.

Speaker 4 How in this moment can people strike that balance where they're trying to get rid of critical race theory and they're trying to, where is it? Where's the spot?

Speaker 2 Yes, it's very interesting. I don't know where the spot is, but I do think that is very much the balance that my parents were able to help me strike as a young child growing up.

Speaker 2 I mean, I went to predominantly white educational institutions, public school, but in a community that was predominantly white. So I got a lot of that sort of cultural influence.

Speaker 2 And I think my parents wanted to make sure that I had the balance of understanding my own background and roots, going to church with my grandmother to

Speaker 2 a black church in Miami. All of those things were also brought into my experience.
And I think that created the balance, being exposed to a lot of different things.

Speaker 4 You were exposed to a lot and you had a lot of advantages in terms of that you created for yourself and that were available to you. And you were a star in school,

Speaker 4 in part because of your parents' expectations of you. That's what you would be and do.

Speaker 5 We were raised by two public school teachers, also. So we know how that

Speaker 5 works.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 4 But there is also a balance there. Can you tell us what happened? You were eight and you were at your grandmother's sink and why that stayed with you forever?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 So I was

Speaker 2 like going back to my grandmother and my mother's family. So my mother has four brothers and sisters.
There are five of them. And when I was growing up, they all had families.

Speaker 2 And we would, Sundays were a big deal at my grandmother's house because some portion of us would go to church with my grandmother and then come back to her house and she would cook and we'd watch football games and it's like a big family time.

Speaker 2 And this particular Sunday,

Speaker 2 when I went and was there with all the kids and all the family members into my grandmother's kitchen, I looked in her sink and I went to wash my hands and I noticed that there was a white paper napkin and written on the napkin in broken English, something like broke sink, wait for repair.

Speaker 2 But the words were misspelled. And I just thought that was so funny because, you know, who didn't know how to spell these words? These were very simple words, wait, repair.

Speaker 2 And it ate, you know, I was so big for my britches. I had done well well on my spelling test

Speaker 2 and so I brought my mother to see you know this funny thing that I had found and my mother was just crestfallen I mean she was so hurt that I would use the opportunity to make fun I didn't know who'd written the note but I just thought it was funny and she was just upset because she said, you know, we thought we were raising you better than that.

Speaker 2 Just because you have all of these advantages, you don't get to make fun of other people. Who do you think wrote this note?

Speaker 2 And when I thought about it, I realized that it was my grandmother, that she had not had the same educational background and advantages that I had had. She never graduated from school.

Speaker 2 And it was such a devastating thing for me to know that I had been... even unintentionally making fun of my grandmother.
And I cried and went outside and was just down,

Speaker 2 you know, really, really

Speaker 2 down on myself and upset that I had done that. And I came back in and I apologized to her.

Speaker 2 And I don't even know if she knew what I had, what all of it was about, but I learned from that that, you know, we really do have to be kind and empathetic. And every time I think about that

Speaker 2 event, you know, I just think, I have so many blessings. I have so many advantages that other people haven't had, like my grandmother.
And, you know, I have to be mindful of that, that

Speaker 2 I can't take for granted the things that I've been given, and nor does it make me feel like I'm better than anybody else.

Speaker 2 So it's sort of like a lesson on kindness and caring and empathy and understanding.

Speaker 5 Such a beautiful story. I was so touched for your mother in that situation to be like in the center of these two gorgeous generations and striving for this one and respecting this one.
And

Speaker 5 I just

Speaker 5 think it's absolutely beautiful. Can you tell us about getting to Harvard? The moment that your

Speaker 5 confidence momentarily falters and when you're walking across the Cambridge crosswalk, what happens, which

Speaker 5 just still full body chills every time I think about it.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, I didn't know anything about Harvard coming up other than they had this fantastic debate tournament. I was in speech and debate,

Speaker 2 and I went to this tournament several years in a row. And it was the first time I'd heard of any college like Harvard.
And I thought, well, I should apply.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it looks like a pretty good place.

Speaker 2 I apply and I get in, and I'm from this big public high school in South Florida.

Speaker 2 And I'm so excited to be there for the first week and a half or so

Speaker 2 until I run into what a lot of freshmen do, which is just feeling like, oh my gosh, what am I doing here? I'm away from home. I, you know, don't know any of these people.
They don't know me.

Speaker 2 Can I do the work of this place?

Speaker 2 You know, here was a school in which I was meeting a lot of kids who had gone to prep schools, like my, like my now husband, then boyfriend, who had a lot of, you know, material advantages, advantages, I thought, in education.

Speaker 4 Seventh generation Harvard kid.

Speaker 3 Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 And so I was like, what am I doing here? And then I was just feeling really homesick and down. And my grandmother at that point was

Speaker 2 had been diagnosed with breast cancer and she was going through treatments. And so.

Speaker 2 This is my freshman year and I'm now away from her and she's suffering. And it was really just a bad time.
And I'm walking across the yard, Harvard Yard,

Speaker 2 looking apparently as down as I feel.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 a woman is walking on the path, a black woman I didn't know, walking on the path coming toward me.

Speaker 2 And as we get close to one another, she looked at me and she leaned over and she said,

Speaker 2 persevere.

Speaker 2 And she kept walking. And I was, and I was like, what? I turned to see if she was going to turn around or say she just passed that word on to me.
And at first I didn't know what to do with it.

Speaker 2 It seemed kind of odd. But a couple of days later was my birthday.
And it was really my lowest point

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 I had always spent my birthday with family. This was in the first two weeks of school, so no one knew me.

Speaker 2 And I was just so down. And I got a letter from my aunt, who was a missionary and from my mother.

Speaker 2 But my aunt especially wrote about how,

Speaker 2 you know, God has angels that are standing around you to protect you. And I thought, I wonder if that woman was an angel.

Speaker 2 I wonder if she was

Speaker 3 a guardian angel.

Speaker 2 And it just sort of made the story all make sense in a way.

Speaker 2 But that word persevere has stuck with me because it really was like a message being sent to help me get through the really tough time in my freshman year.

Speaker 4 The origins of We Can Do Hard Things were once just a dream of community and connection and expression. That dream turned into the podcast you are listening to today.

Speaker 4 Starting your own business is a dream lots of us share, but too many of us let it remain just a dream. Don't hold yourself back thinking, what if I don't have the skills? What if I can't do it alone?

Speaker 4 Turn those what-ifs into why-nots with Shopify by your side.

Speaker 4 Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S., from giant corporate household names to brands just getting started.

Speaker 4 You can choose from hundreds of beautiful templates to build your store, use AI tools to write product descriptions and enhance your photos, and even launch email or social campaigns that make it look like you've got a full marketing team behind you.

Speaker 4 Take it from me: if you're launching your own business, you do not want to do it alone. There are tools that can help.
We used Shopify to sell our We Can Do Hard Things merch on our book tour.

Speaker 4 We gave 100% of the proceeds of the merch away to nonprofits, and Shopify helped us to do all of that easily and seamlessly. Turn those dreams into

Speaker 4 and give them the best shot at success with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com slash hard things.

Speaker 4 Go to shopify.com slash hard things.

Speaker 4 Shopify.com slash hard things.

Speaker 1 One thing I love about our listeners is how industrious all of you are. The stories we hear about you guys going off on your own and starting your own ventures like we did, it's truly inspiring.

Speaker 1 It's a big part of why NetSuite came to us as a sponsor. NetSuite offers real-time data and insights for so many business owners, and by that I mean over 42,000 businesses.

Speaker 1 NetSuite offers the number one AI-powered cloud ERP. Think of it as a central nervous system for your business.

Speaker 1 Instead of juggling separate tools for accounting here, HR there, inventory somewhere else, NetSuite pulls everything into one seamless platform.

Speaker 1 That means you finally have one source of truth, real visibility, real control, and the power to make smarter decisions faster.

Speaker 1 With real-time data and forecasting, you're not just reacting to what already happened, you're planning for what's next.

Speaker 1 And whether your company is bringing in a few million or hundreds of millions, NetSuite scales with you.

Speaker 1 It helps you tackle today's challenges and chase down tomorrow's opportunities without missing a beat.

Speaker 1 Speaking of opportunity, download the CFO's guide to AI and machine learning at netsuite.com slash hard things.

Speaker 1 The guide is free to you at netsuite.com slash hard things.

Speaker 1 Netsuite.com slash hard things.

Speaker 5 It's so incredible the idea that that one word

Speaker 5 that someone decides to say to you in a critical moment like that. Like that woman is walking around somewhere not knowing that she could have had an actual,

Speaker 5 she is a factor in you.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Exactly. I sometimes think about that.

Speaker 3 I wonder if she knows. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, yes.

Speaker 4 Like if she sees you in the court and she's like, I did that.

Speaker 4 I mean, but it also is such a beautiful, I mean, you talk a lot about.

Speaker 4 belonging and where you felt at home and the fact that

Speaker 4 a

Speaker 4 angel or not an angel that that black woman was able to look at you and see and recognize oh i know what's happening there

Speaker 4 and i can intervene that's right um it makes me think you you talk a lot about um one of the things that was happening at harvard was the dual consciousness kind of thing that had been through your whole life that the like we boys that you're you're aware of how people are seeing you and you're representing your whole race as opposed to just representing yourself.

Speaker 4 That's right. And then you you find yourself with your other angels, Lisa and Antoinette and Nina, who are

Speaker 4 just these are your four roomies. And

Speaker 4 tell us what that sisterhood, it reminds me of the woman crossing the street, the fully being known in a group of women like you for the first time, honestly. Right.

Speaker 2 First time. No, it was amazing.
I mean, there were other students who came to Harvard who had, like Lisa, for example, come from

Speaker 2 black high schools, predominantly black high schools.

Speaker 2 So coming to Harvard for them was their first or maybe one of the first opportunities to be in a predominantly white environment and they felt very much their minority status.

Speaker 2 For me, it was almost the opposite because I had come from

Speaker 2 white schools where I was really one, two, three, and that's it in the whole

Speaker 2 set of classes that I typically took. And coming to Harvard and having a sizable number of African-Americans

Speaker 2 and finding these women who literally, I, you know, we're very close even today. They're my sisters.

Speaker 2 I didn't have any sisters. So to have, you know, sisters through school this way was just extraordinary.

Speaker 2 I mean, it was the most wonderful gift that I received to be able to find these women, to bond with them, and to be able to call them my family now.

Speaker 5 I love the both of that, the like sisterhood of people you're doing life with and the effect of that, but also the sisterhood you can create in one passing moment in a crosswalk. That's right, right?

Speaker 5 That's right. So gorgeous.
Can you talk to us about your organizing at Harvard and tell us about how you guided your fellow organizers in your protests of the Confederate flag on the campus?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so I was not a leader in the BSA, one of the, you know, lead people, but I was active in the organization,

Speaker 2 and this Confederate flag incident was pretty challenging for black students on campus. When I was, I believe it was my junior year,

Speaker 2 in the portion of the campus where my dorm was and a number of black students were living in this part of the campus.

Speaker 2 One of our fellow students decided to hang a Confederate flag in his window out into the quad, the sort of main area where we all hung out, and shone a light through it.

Speaker 2 It was a very sort of a very clear symbol.

Speaker 4 It was not incidental decoration.

Speaker 2 No, it was not.

Speaker 3 It was not.

Speaker 2 There was a real statement.

Speaker 2 A real statement and one that we at least took to be an affront to the African American students on campus.

Speaker 2 And there was a lot of,

Speaker 2 you know, concern. There were protests.
There were passing out leaflets, meetings, and all kinds of rallies. And we were trying to get the administration to do something about it.

Speaker 2 And at the end of the day, what I noticed and what I was increasingly concerned about was how distracting it was.

Speaker 2 to be focused on this when we all had other things that we had been brought to campus to do and that we needed to do.

Speaker 2 And so it reminded me of Toni Morrison's observation that I had heard about and was really kind of passionate about.

Speaker 2 And so at one of the BSA meetings, I invoked it. And that is, you know, she

Speaker 2 once said

Speaker 2 that the

Speaker 2 very real

Speaker 2 purpose of racism is distraction, that it keeps you from doing the things that you were called upon to do because you're always responding to these assertions that are totally made up and totally crazy.

Speaker 2 But you spend your time trying to

Speaker 2 diffuse the notion that you don't have the right head shape or that you don't have a kingdom or that you can't speak properly or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 And that we had to be mindful of that as we went through the process of responding to this.

Speaker 2 And I think, I just thought it was a wonderful sentiment and one that we really needed to take to heart to ensure that we weren't,

Speaker 2 you know, doing things that would cause us to not do as well in our classes, thereby reinforcing the very thing that the person who was,

Speaker 2 you know, doing this wanted to have happen. So,

Speaker 4 yeah, they want to go to miss classes and drop out. And they see they don't belong here.

Speaker 2 Exactly. So that's, that's,

Speaker 2 I just, it was a very strong and important memory and message, I thought, in that series of events.

Speaker 5 It's so important. Like, just pod squad, stop there for a second.
It's, I have young adult children, and often my son's friends will.

Speaker 5 reach out to me who are organizing on campuses or one recently was organizing for queer rights and asking me for advice. And I said to her, also go to class.
Yes. Like while you're doing this,

Speaker 5 the people who don't want you to exist are getting better at poetry. Exactly.
They're getting better at, they're learning history.

Speaker 5 Go to class.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 4 And they're probably not learning poetry. They're probably in business school and they're not going to hire you.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, I don't know about that.

Speaker 2 But the point is well taken, right? I mean, that you really, yes, there are things that are important and you want to exercise your

Speaker 2 right to speak out and to protest and all of that is fine. But you also do have to get the education that you were there on campus to get.

Speaker 2 And that will further your cause as well, being an educated individual making your way in the world.

Speaker 4 And your own joy.

Speaker 3 I mean, now you're spending your time.

Speaker 4 It's that whole focusing on that devours you.

Speaker 4 Literally, it's devouring your time is what your grandmother said. I loved Antoinette when she said, I just have to say this back because it was so, I was like, yes.

Speaker 4 She said, after your speech telling them to go to class she said our backs got straight we faced forward and our stride was sure because once we recognized the true toil of that confederate flag not just on our psyche but also our work we were determined to get the last laugh yes yes so good so good

Speaker 4 and it stayed through to you because it reminded me

Speaker 4 This whole idea of undistracted remind me of the way your parents brought you up and then what happened at Harvard. And then in your confirmation hearings, when you're

Speaker 4 the White House staffer says to you, you can get exasperated at the tone of some of these questions or you can be a Supreme Court justice.

Speaker 2 That's correct. That's correct.
It was a very memorable thing for me. And it was like a light bulb.
I was like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right.

Speaker 2 And I had that in my mind. I did have that in my mind as I went through the confirmation hearing that, you know, what is more important in this moment?

Speaker 2 And the most important thing is for me to maintain my composure and demonstrate to people that I'm able to do this job in an even-handed and even-keeled way.

Speaker 4 And as you're going through that, as you're thinking about that, how much of your brain is also thinking,

Speaker 4 why did

Speaker 4 some of y'all before me

Speaker 4 was losing your composure, not disqualifying? Like, is that,

Speaker 4 hey, is that a bridge too far?

Speaker 5 But also, that's not cool that you have to keep your composure and other people don't.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, what's funny is that that reminds me of the conversation I had with my grandmother that I talked about in the book, where she talks about the unfairness of life, where I'm complaining about

Speaker 2 walking through stores and feeling like I'm being policed when my friends go to the same store and they're not.

Speaker 2 And, you know, that's the point that you brought up earlier where she says, Don't be devoured by the unfairness of life. To dwell on it is to be devoured by it.

Speaker 2 And so, um, so I try not to think about things like that. You know, I focus on the task at hand.

Speaker 5 You sure do. Which is amazing since the task at hand for you is making things fail.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 4 That's a real brain teaser right there.

Speaker 4 I want to personally thank you

Speaker 4 for what was to me

Speaker 4 a monumentally beautiful and courageous part of your book, which is talking

Speaker 4 about Talya.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I am raising a neurodiverse child.

Speaker 4 I was also a lawyer, not nearly

Speaker 4 not close to very low on the ladder, but also in big law in DC.

Speaker 4 It was really moving the way that you talked about how a whole life striving, a whole life of expectation

Speaker 4 of yourself.

Speaker 4 And I'm just wondering if you could talk us through,

Speaker 4 you said

Speaker 4 that your

Speaker 4 idea, the only script you had to personal achievement,

Speaker 4 which I would argue is like personal worth and value in some places, was no excuses. You can do anything you put your mind to.

Speaker 4 And you raised Talia that way for a while.

Speaker 4 Talk to us about

Speaker 4 how that evolved for you and how

Speaker 4 loving her evolved your understanding.

Speaker 2 Yes, well,

Speaker 2 this was a very, very challenging period because, you know, we talked about my parents early on and how they had raised me through high expectations and the belief that you can do anything and, you know, whatever you put your mind to, you can do, which

Speaker 2 they felt very strongly about because of their background and upbringing and wanting me not to succumb to negative messaging about my own limitations.

Speaker 2 And so that was my model for how you parent, you just say to your kid, you've got this, you know, keep going.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 to find out

Speaker 2 that, you know, I had a daughter who really did have challenges that made it difficult, if not impossible for her at times to do the things that

Speaker 2 you know, I was expecting her to do. And it was very challenging because I wanted to

Speaker 2 support her and wanted her to be successful, but I didn't really know how to make that happen or help her make that happen because I wasn't sure what was going on.

Speaker 2 She wasn't diagnosed with autism until she was in seventh grade.

Speaker 2 And so for all of her elementary school years, this was this tricky balance between wanting to push her the way I had been pushed so that she could actually rise to the expectations and struggling with her at times really not being able to do it and melting down and having difficulty in school.

Speaker 2 And we had to homeschool her for a while as a result. And I try in the book to be as transparent as possible about our struggles because I know I didn't have really any

Speaker 2 reference point for this kind of thing when I was going through it. So I thought.

Speaker 2 with her permission, that I would be as transparent as possible in the hopes that, you know, someone else who's reading this book and

Speaker 2 has a similar situation will be able to learn from it.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Did it change your idea of what success is?

Speaker 5 Because parenting seems to me like our parents teach us this way of climbing the ladder and we think we're going to pass that on to our kid and then our kid comes and we're like, oh, wrong ladder?

Speaker 3 Like totally different paradigms.

Speaker 5 Yes. So

Speaker 5 did it change your ideas of like what actually does make a a successful life?

Speaker 2 Absolutely. I mean, it definitely made me realize that, you know, each child is unique and different and beautiful in their own way.

Speaker 2 And they're not all going to end up being, you know, little carbon copies of you.

Speaker 2 And that you have to.

Speaker 2 let them reveal themselves and

Speaker 2 once they do be there to support and encourage whoever they turn out to be.

Speaker 2 It's not going to be just who you think they are or who you want them to be.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that was tough because my husband and I are very driven type A

Speaker 2 kinds of personalities, always thinking we can control things, wanting to control things. And this was something that was not in our control.
And that was very challenging.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I'm so proud of both of my daughters and I'm proud

Speaker 2 that Talya in particular allowed me to talk about this. I mean, I very much wanted to get her permission,

Speaker 2 even though, you know, she's an adult. And so it's not like I'm revealing information that I had total control over it.
I wanted her permission.

Speaker 2 And she gave it freely, saying, you know, this is, there's nothing to be ashamed of. This is accurate and it's just who I am.

Speaker 4 I'm still who I've always been, she says.

Speaker 2 I'm still who I've always been, you know. So,

Speaker 2 so I really appreciate that because I think it will be very enlightening to some people who read this book.

Speaker 5 And not just about parenting in general. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, just the model of what is so moving to me about it is it is not the model that we hear of parenting, that it is our job to allow our children to reveal themselves. Yes.
And then to support

Speaker 5 whatever it is they reveal. Yes.
That is different. Yes.

Speaker 4 Then it is our job to shape and prod and push.

Speaker 5 And no, no, no, allow to reveal.

Speaker 4 yeah because this is I mean personally it means a lot to me that Talia was brave enough and proud enough and secure enough to to allow you to share this but this could be said about anyone if your child is queer whoever they are you say nothing it made me realize there's nothing you could do to make Talia conform to your vision for her life we could finally stop resisting the shape of things stop desperately imagining some other dream of the future and embrace the potential of what was That's right.

Speaker 4 That's everything.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 2 That's not settle for what is. No.

Speaker 5 Embrace

Speaker 5 potential.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 1 You know what we don't talk enough about?

Speaker 3 Sleep.

Speaker 1 I mean, we spend a third of our lives doing it, and it literally impacts everything. Your mood, focus, workouts, even even how you show up for the people you love.
But here's the thing.

Speaker 2 Not all sleep is good sleep.

Speaker 1 That's why I'm obsessed with my Coupe Sleep Goods and my Coupe Adjustable Pillow. It is revolutionary because it's an adjustable pillow where you can remove or add fill to fit your sleep needs.

Speaker 1 Back sleeper, side sleeper, stomach sleeper? This pillow actually adapts to you, not the other way around.

Speaker 1 I got two of these king-size original adjustable pillows after I completed the short sleep quiz, which I highly recommend everyone do. You can ensure you're buying the exact right pillow for you.

Speaker 4 I love it.

Speaker 1 I love being able to take out the fill until it was perfectly adjusted to my neck and spine. You can feel the difference, and I want all of our listeners to try this pillow.

Speaker 1 Upgrade your sleep, visit coopsleepgoods.com/slash hardthings to get 20% off your first order. That's

Speaker 1 sleepgoods.com slash hard things.

Speaker 4 This show is brought to you by Alma. I want to start with a truth I've learned the hard way.
Taking care of your mental health isn't a one-time decision. It's a daily practice.

Speaker 4 And even when you know you want support, the hardest part is often just figuring out where to start. For me, finding the right therapist changed everything.

Speaker 4 But getting there was kind of overwhelming. Endless searches, phone calls, dead ends.
It's wild that the thing that's supposed to help you can feel so hard to reach. And that's why I love Alma.

Speaker 4 Alma, A-L-M-A, takes all that chaos out of the process. It's a simple, easy-to-use platform where you can search for licensed, in-network therapists who actually feel like the right fit.

Speaker 4 You don't even need an account to browse and you can filter by what matters most to you, their background, specialty, therapy style, and more.

Speaker 4 And here's the part that really matters: this isn't just about checking a box, it's about real connection. 97% of people who found a therapist through Alma say they felt seen and heard.

Speaker 4 And that's the heart of good therapy: someone who gets you, not just your symptoms. Better with people, better with Alma.
Visit helloalma.com/slash we can to schedule a free consultation today.

Speaker 4 That's hello a M A dot com slash W E C A N.

Speaker 1 I don't know about you, but mornings in our house can feel like a marathon before 9 a.m.

Speaker 1 And I am just used to powering right on through, which always left me dragging by mid-morning. Cachava has completely changed that for me.

Speaker 1 It's a plant-based superfood meal shake that actually feels like real nourishment, not some chalky health drink.

Speaker 1 With over 85 superfoods, nutrients, and plant-based ingredients, cachava is a whole-body meal that supports your strength, energy, digestion, metabolism, cognition, and immunity.

Speaker 1 And best of all, it's the taste. They really understand that we need to be motivated by actual flavor here.

Speaker 1 I have more steady energy, fewer crashes, and I am not rummaging through the pantry at 10 a.m. for snacks.

Speaker 1 It's become this little anchor in my day, something easy and good I can do for myself, even on the most chaotic mornings.

Speaker 1 If you've seen me recently, I'm probably sipping on their new strawberry flavor. They use real freeze-dried strawberries, and you can really actually taste the difference.

Speaker 1 You've never tasted strawberry like this. Go to cachava.com and use code we can do hard things for 15% off your next order.
That's cachava. k-a-c-h-a-v-a dot com.

Speaker 1 Code we can do hard things for 15% off.

Speaker 4 I have a question that I wasn't planning on asking, but do you think it's again this straddling?

Speaker 4 Like your life is so paradoxical, but I'm always trying to figure out how much do I just accept my kids exactly where they are?

Speaker 4 Or are they just going to be living in my basement forever if I continue just to accept them exactly who they are?

Speaker 3 Like,

Speaker 4 do you think if you had been raised with that

Speaker 4 not having that, your parents have a dream for you,

Speaker 4 that you'd still be where you are?

Speaker 2 I don't know. I don't know.
It's this is the very tricky line that we have to walk as parents and as children

Speaker 2 because you do want to

Speaker 2 allow them to reveal themselves. It's very important that it's their life and not yours that is shaping and forming.

Speaker 2 And some children have very strong senses of what they want to do, who they are when they're little. And that's, you know, sort of an easier road in terms of assisting them or encouraging them.
But

Speaker 2 I don't know whether I would have found this path or not. Is it inherent in me to be this kind of person?

Speaker 2 I mean, what I say in the book is I talk a lot about my dad, who was, I think, also a born striver.

Speaker 2 And he came from circumstances where he did not have this kind of encouragement, single mom scenario.

Speaker 2 He was the youngest of five kids, kids, much, much older kids, basically, you know, raising himself.

Speaker 2 And he was a striver. So it's possible that I would have,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 still struck off on this path, but it's hard to say.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 There's all different kinds of striving, too. That's right.
Like, that's the thing. Somebody like Talia is striving for

Speaker 5 to be herself. That's right.
That is striving. That's you don't have to just be on the hustle.

Speaker 4 That's right. Well, also, this is from Talia.
Okay, then I'll leave Talia alone, but I'm obsessed with her. Okay, but she's, so this is her, because I want to live like this.

Speaker 4 This is her description about when you

Speaker 4 told her that she had

Speaker 4 autism, and she's like reporting back to you that experience of herself. She said, I remember you were both so serious.
I realized that this was very important to you.

Speaker 4 And you really wanted me to understand something about it. But those french fries were hot and perfectly crisp.

Speaker 4 And I just really wanted to pay attention to them in that moment because later they would be soggy. And who wants to eat soggy fries?

Speaker 3 Oh my God,

Speaker 5 how many people are out there living eating soggy fries?

Speaker 3 And you know what?

Speaker 5 I don't think that that one has the secrets to life nailed.

Speaker 3 You're not reading closely enough.

Speaker 3 My daughter is very funny.

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 4 But that's profound.

Speaker 3 It is profound.

Speaker 4 I'm going to start labeling my life in soggy fries and crisp fries.

Speaker 3 That's right.

Speaker 5 That's right. I realized this was very important to you.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. There was something you really wanted me to know about this.
I'm just over here being who I always was.

Speaker 5 Bless her. Okay, now we leave Talia alone, but she's a national treasure.

Speaker 3 That's what she is.

Speaker 4 I'm wondering, you in your...

Speaker 4 In your Harvard application, okay, you're 17 years old and you write in your application that you think that you should go to Harvard because it would be helpful to you in your dream to be the first,

Speaker 4 your goal, sorry, your goal, it wasn't a dream, your goal of being the first black female Supreme Court justice to appear on a Broadway stage. Yes.
That's wild that you said that when you were 17.

Speaker 4 The Broadway stuff, you're going to have to read the book because it's so beautiful.

Speaker 4 I want to know, since you're obviously prescient in this,

Speaker 4 what dreams do you have left?

Speaker 4 What else are you? What What are you writing under your book?

Speaker 2 I haven't gotten to the Broadway stage part yet. So, you know, there we go.

Speaker 2 I think being in a musical would be fantastic.

Speaker 3 I can see that. How can we make that happen?

Speaker 2 I would also,

Speaker 2 this is less of a big dream. I would also love to knit a sweater.

Speaker 2 I taught myself to knit during

Speaker 2 the confirmation process, not this one, uh when i was clerk uh being considered for my first judgeship

Speaker 2 and i've never gotten past a scarf so i would really love to learn how to

Speaker 4 i believe in you love that thank you really no excuses you can do anything you put your mind to do anything

Speaker 5 yeah and i like the big dream little dream thing i have lots of big dreams out in the world but also i would like to learn how to do my hair there you are Like I just big and little, right?

Speaker 5 Big and little.

Speaker 3 Do you think

Speaker 5 that you could help us, like you're talking to a second grader,

Speaker 5 explain to us what the whole situation with the presidential immunity is and why it should make us as nervous as it made you?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 you know, my hope would be that anybody who's really really interested would look at our opinions because the Supreme Court justices do get to write

Speaker 2 out what our views are. You know, that's one of the things that distinguishes us from the other branches of government.

Speaker 2 You know, legislators, they vote, but they just vote. You don't really know why they voted for what they voted for, whereas the justices actually get to write.
And so in that case,

Speaker 2 the majority of the justices, six of the justices, voted to

Speaker 2 adopt a

Speaker 2 system

Speaker 2 of partial immunity for former presidents. And the chief justice wrote the opinion and he writes and explains their position as to why

Speaker 2 they read the Constitution to

Speaker 2 require such a system and the benefits of such a system. And I

Speaker 2 joined with with Justice Sotomayor and Justice Kagan in dissent,

Speaker 2 arguing that

Speaker 2 we don't see that kind of immunity in the Constitution.

Speaker 2 And Justice Sotomayor, in particular, articulated some of the concerns about a system that would afford some immunity to former presidents.

Speaker 2 So it's hard to describe more, you know, specifically, but,

Speaker 2 you know, the big picture is that

Speaker 2 the court has recognized now that in certain circumstances,

Speaker 2 former presidents cannot be prosecuted for acts that were committed or taken while they were in office.

Speaker 5 And people can Google.

Speaker 2 And people can Google. Your opinions.
And people can Google.

Speaker 5 People can Google. Excellent.
thank you so much you

Speaker 4 i would just wonder if we could talk about the the sense of belonging because you're this historic first in so many places you talk about when you're eight even when you're that early that

Speaker 4 it was exhausting

Speaker 4 and that being alone was you call a soul deep sigh of relief because you could just be one thing. That's a, it's a, it's a real sacrifice and a toll to you what you've done.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 Can you talk about that? Because you're so celebrated as you should be, but, and it's shiny and beautiful. And is it lonely and exhausting?

Speaker 2 Well, it's, I'm so honored to be in this position. I'm so grateful.
for all of the people who

Speaker 2 made this possible. You know, I say in the beginning of the book that no one reaches the highest of heights on their own, and I believe that.

Speaker 2 And it's certainly true of me. And so, part of writing this book, one of the reasons why I wrote it, was to pay tribute to the people and the circumstances that

Speaker 2 were responsible for preparing me to be ready for this moment. So I gladly

Speaker 2 and freely and gratefully accept the chance to serve the American people in this way. There are times in which it is exhausting.
There are times in which it is lonely

Speaker 2 because judges really do have to

Speaker 2 contemplate a lot of very serious issues and do their best to follow and interpret the law and not engage in political debates and that sort of thing. And so that does require a level of isolation.

Speaker 2 And it can be challenging because especially when you are operating on a multi-member court the way we are. For many years, I was a district judge, which meant I had my own cases.
I was by myself.

Speaker 2 And that was really fun because you can do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 But, you know, to be an appellate court is challenging because you do have a lot of give and take and you're voting and you're debating.

Speaker 2 But it's an honor. It's a true honor to

Speaker 2 be in this position. And I've been so grateful for all of the support that I've received.
I mean, just wonderful, wonderful tributes and

Speaker 2 people sending me things. I mentioned in the book the crochet doll.
And

Speaker 2 I think I put it in the box. The picture is there.

Speaker 4 It's ridiculous. It's beautiful.

Speaker 3 Can you tell us? It's beautiful.

Speaker 2 It was like my favorite gift, a woman who crocheted it during my confirmation hearing while she was at home.

Speaker 3 It's like a prayer show.

Speaker 3 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 And then it just showed up in my office. She just sent it to me.
And it was just spectacular. So all of those things just make me feel so honored.
to do this work.

Speaker 4 Joy is a big part of your life, too. It's all the sacrifice, all the ridiculous.
I just kept being like, this isn't possible. How hard this woman worked.

Speaker 4 Like I, I just, the next, I'm like, again, I'm exhausted.

Speaker 3 Now we're going to another clerkship. Oh my God.

Speaker 5 I wish, it made me wish that someone else had crossed another crosswalk after the persevere lady and said, take it easy.

Speaker 3 Just forget it.

Speaker 4 Exactly.

Speaker 4 But you say if one is to pour one's heart and soul into a great and selfless assignment, then one must always have a way to replenish the spirit.

Speaker 4 You have absolutely poured yourself into a very great and selfless assignment. So what

Speaker 4 is your practice to fill your spirit up? How do you do? Because this is not possible. Unless there's some wild stuff happening on the replenishing.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, I have a lot of sources of energy and joy and hope. You know, my family, my husband, who is spectacular,

Speaker 2 a spectacular human being who

Speaker 2 does, is incredibly selfless and does everything he can to support and promote and encourage me.

Speaker 2 You know, my daughters who are wonderful human beings and

Speaker 2 are so proud of me and in this endeavor, you know, and I just want to do good for them.

Speaker 2 And as I say in the book, you know, art, I love art.

Speaker 2 And I love performing arts. I love visual arts.
I love going to museums.

Speaker 2 All of those things. The creative side of me gets filled up when I get to see a wonderful performance or I get to learn about a new and upcoming artist and see their works.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I try to do as much of that as I can

Speaker 2 alongside

Speaker 2 the work that I have to do from day to day.

Speaker 5 Do you have any, before we end, do you have any recent favorite artists?

Speaker 2 Oh, recent favorite artists. Well,

Speaker 2 I think I'd be remiss if I didn't mention Glenn Ligand. I tend to like modern art a little bit more.
So he does a lot of modern things. And

Speaker 2 an artist from Alabama, whose name is Lonnie Holly,

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 does a lot of interesting work with a foundation called Souls Grown Deep,

Speaker 2 which features southern black artists. And so those are two that come to mind right off the top of my head.
But you know, I also love Alma Thomas, who's from Washington, D.C.

Speaker 2 and does a lot of modern art as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, my mother was the principal of a school for the arts in Miami, one of their premier schools. And

Speaker 2 my parents' home is filled with her students' arts.

Speaker 2 And we used to go to performances and all sorts of things in connection with the school. So this has been a passion of mine for a long time.

Speaker 2 And I love it.

Speaker 5 What a family. I just picture the planet.
I just picture the planet.

Speaker 5 And like, you know, when you see those pictures of the planet at night and like all the lights are lit up, I feel like your family is just like fluorescent, like

Speaker 3 beaming off the planet.

Speaker 4 One of these lights is not like the other.

Speaker 5 Exactly.

Speaker 4 I have a last question, which is if there is a person who is

Speaker 4 crossing that metaphorical path right now

Speaker 4 and they are

Speaker 4 feeling like they don't belong and they do not know if they are up for this challenge.

Speaker 4 And it's a young black woman like you, and it's right now.

Speaker 4 What do you say as you're crossing them?

Speaker 2 Oh my goodness.

Speaker 2 I say

Speaker 2 connect.

Speaker 2 I say connect, and I hope to encourage her to connect to

Speaker 2 other people

Speaker 2 who

Speaker 2 can provide support for her,

Speaker 2 to connect to a subject or a teacher,

Speaker 2 just one thing,

Speaker 2 an extracurricular activity,

Speaker 2 one thing that she can put her focus on.

Speaker 2 And that will help, I think, to crowd out some of the other negative feelings.

Speaker 3 Profound.

Speaker 5 Different than individualistic. Yes.
Just persevering. Connect.
Connect yourself. Connect.
Others. You're not alone.
Collective. Yes.

Speaker 5 You're smart.

Speaker 2 Well, you guys are great. Thank you so much.
This has been a delight. I really enjoyed it.

Speaker 4 Lovely one is out now. It's just a joy and it's beautiful and you're an inspiration and we're thankful for your sacrifice and we are so joyful that you are representing us in the Supreme Court.

Speaker 4 So thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 Take care. Bye-bye.

Speaker 3 Bye-bye. Bye, Pod Squad.
Thank you.

Speaker 5 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 5 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 5 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 5 And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

Speaker 5 While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 5 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 5 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.

Speaker 5 I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle.

Speaker 3 I walked through fire, I came out

Speaker 3 the other side.

Speaker 3 I chased desire,

Speaker 3 I made sure I got what's mine.

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 that I'm the one for me.

Speaker 3 And because I'm mine,

Speaker 3 I walk the line.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are map.

Speaker 3 A final destination.

Speaker 3 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to belong.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives

Speaker 3 bring,

Speaker 3 we can do a hard game.

Speaker 3 I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start.

Speaker 3 I'm not the problem,

Speaker 3 sometimes things fall apart.

Speaker 3 And I continue

Speaker 3 to believe

Speaker 3 the best

Speaker 3 people are free.

Speaker 3 And it took some time.

Speaker 3 But I'm finally fine.

Speaker 3 Cause we're adventurers, and heartbreaks are back.

Speaker 3 Our final destination we lack.

Speaker 3 We've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 to places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives

Speaker 3 bring,

Speaker 3 we can do a hard

Speaker 3 pain.

Speaker 3 Adventures and heartbreaks on that.

Speaker 3 We might get lost, but we're okay. But

Speaker 3 we've stopped asking directions

Speaker 3 in some places they've never been.

Speaker 3 And to be loved, we need to be known.

Speaker 3 We'll finally find

Speaker 3 our way back home.

Speaker 3 And through the joy and pain

Speaker 3 that our lives

Speaker 3 bring,

Speaker 3 we can do hard

Speaker 3 things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we can do hard things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we

Speaker 3 can do

Speaker 3 earth things.