Inside Out 2 Review + Our Fav Books & TV Right Now

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Speaker 2 Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things.

Speaker 2 Amanda and Mary Abigail. Yeah.

Speaker 2 People ask us this question all the time when we never answer it. Let's just try.
They want to know what are we watching slash reading slash listening to these days.

Speaker 2 Let's just each try to answer that question.

Speaker 2 I'm happy to go. I'll do the reading one.
Let's just all do all of them. What are we watching? Sissy.

Speaker 4 I am watching YouTube shorts with my kids because that's all they want to watch of baseball highlights and Mr. Beast

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 golf with Chandler and things like this.

Speaker 4 Okay. For as many seconds as I can handle before I leave.
And that is all I'm watching except for I took six kids and myself to watch Inside Out 2

Speaker 4 last week. Loved it.
And I would like to discuss it because I know that you did too.

Speaker 2 Okay, great. So let's tell the pod squad.
There might be a couple spoilers in this discussion. We will try to avoid too many spoilers.
This is also not a murder mystery.

Speaker 2 So there's not any like huge thing that we can give away. It's more an exploration of the inner self and how it's developed.

Speaker 2 But if you don't want to hear anything about the movie, fast forward or whatever people do in the 2024 to get through.

Speaker 2 What did you think of the movie? I loved it. Me too.

Speaker 2 I really loved it.

Speaker 4 So the idea here is that Inside Out One, which is, if you've watched, it has, you know, joy is the leader of, it's sort of IFS-y.

Speaker 2 It has

Speaker 4 different pieces of, oh my God, what's the girl's name? Riley's the main character. So she's younger in Inside Out One.

Speaker 4 And there's joy, there's sadness, there's fear, all of the primary emotions that you're born with. So what's interesting is what they based it on, it's real psychology.

Speaker 4 In fact, I noticed that Kristen Neff Neff

Speaker 4 was one of the main advisors inside out two, which at that school

Speaker 4 and we're having Kristen Neff on soon.

Speaker 2 She's amazing.

Speaker 4 So the emotions that you're born with are Inside Out one.

Speaker 4 Beyond those emotions, every other emotion,

Speaker 4 which I didn't know this, is learned. So like empathy is learned.
Compassion is learned, all of these things

Speaker 4 you're not born programmed with.

Speaker 2 So these are the social, this is what Patrick talked about on our sociopath episode, which is coming up, that a sociopath like Patrick has the primary emotions,

Speaker 2 but the secondary emotion, so if you want to think of the primary, like primary colors, bold colors you're born with, we all have those, happy, sad.

Speaker 2 But then there are other colors, other emotions that are learned over time. So these are the ones that blend other ones together.
Secondary emotions like shame, empathy,

Speaker 2 compassion.

Speaker 4 Yes. So Inside Out 2 includes several of these learned emotions.
It does also include disgust, which is a primary emotion. So they added that in.

Speaker 4 So the primary emotions you're born with just for your edification are happiness, which is joy in the case of Inside Out, sadness, disgust, fear, surprise, anger.

Speaker 4 All born with. You have to learn the other ones.
So this one, the key player here,

Speaker 4 which is the most prominent role in Set Out 2, is that they introduce anxiety

Speaker 2 as a character.

Speaker 4 And it's a very helpful situation because they show Riley as like going through puberty and her whole sense of self that she's developed since the time is like

Speaker 4 all

Speaker 2 jumbled up.

Speaker 4 And she brings on like embarrassment and anxiety and a few other emotions. And they

Speaker 4 are all kind of dueling for the primary driver of her decisions.

Speaker 4 I thought it was really well done, and I resonated a lot with it.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Did you cry, sissy?

Speaker 4 I did not cry.

Speaker 2 Did you cry? Of course, I did.

Speaker 5 We both did.

Speaker 2 Yeah. All my kids cried.
Everybody was crying. I mean, I just felt like it was so sympathetic.
You know, it shows how anxiety steps in

Speaker 2 to help when we get into scary situations.

Speaker 2 Riley enters a scary situation for her and the anxiety character pops in and takes control of the dashboard of Riley's brain because anxiety, who is played by Maya Hawk, is trying to help Riley, thinks this is scary.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this is scary. So, you know, what we have to do is think of every single thing that could go wrong

Speaker 2 and have her base all her decisions on what could go wrong. And so you actually see a visual of what happens to us when our anxiety steps in and means well.

Speaker 2 But the beauty of watching anxiety take over the dashboard, when anxiety takes over, all the other emotions don't exist. It's so interesting.

Speaker 2 It's like the visual of that, watching anxiety become this like spinning Tasmanian devil in the brain trying to keep the kids safe and then joy sadness there's no room for any of them it's like a whirling dervish of thinking thinking thinking and all of the emotions disappear that was so resonant to me and to see sweet little anxiety she knew she was like screwing things up Because when Riley based her decisions on what anxiety was telling her, which was so fear-based, things got worse.

Speaker 2 And anxiety didn't understand because she was trying to help.

Speaker 2 It was so sympathetic to all of us, I felt like.

Speaker 5 I think one of the things that I love the most about it

Speaker 5 is that they've chosen to have a female character.

Speaker 5 That is such an important thing to me because so often throughout my life,

Speaker 5 all of our lives, we were forced to imagine what it would be like for a girl or somebody that looked like me or felt talked like me i just like and that she was a

Speaker 5 hockey player like there was just like so much that was so beautiful to be able to simply

Speaker 5 in a lot of ways

Speaker 5 communicate internal family systems and like this that we have complex emotions and one of the emotions can take over

Speaker 5 and that it's a survival instinct. It is based on the need to survive.

Speaker 5 To me,

Speaker 5 it just is so beautiful because it puts it in the minds of our teenagers. Like, oh, I'm so much more complex than just the emotion of anxiety taking over the control panel for right now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I love the gendered mention. I wanted to bring up one thing

Speaker 2 that I felt.

Speaker 4 Yes, I'm so interested.

Speaker 2 In an otherwise beautiful...

Speaker 2 Oh, really? You had something too?

Speaker 4 i had one thing that i was you too

Speaker 2 oh i can't wait to see if this i'm the same sad that that was included what happened okay so interested to see what yours was so i go through the whole movie i'm crying i am there the sense of self what they replaced it with i mean yes to like all of it yes yes yes and then there's this part at the very end which yep same okay so i thought It was a beautiful, the whole movie is in Riley's mind, right?

Speaker 2 It's all the emotions in Riley's mind. And then they do these cute cutaways where you see like Riley's mom.
Riley's mom's trying to deal with Riley.

Speaker 2 And then suddenly you see all the characters in Riley's mom's head trying to make sense of what's going on with Riley, which was so humanizing for the parent. There's this moment at the end.

Speaker 2 And I actually, I'll try not to get upset about it, but I couldn't believe it. I could not believe they left this part in the movie.

Speaker 4 I couldn't either.

Speaker 2 So after this incredible exploration of the depths and complexities of being a human person, a human kid. The very end, there's a part where they go into Riley's mom's brain.

Speaker 2 Riley's mom is having all of these complex emotions about Riley and her development. Then they switch to Riley's dad's head.

Speaker 2 And in Riley's dad's head, what they show, what this movie chooses to show, is a second of complex emotions. And then one of the characters goes, but let's just go back to the game.
The joke is

Speaker 2 the man's brain is not as complex and doesn't care as much and can turn it all off and just cares about sports. I could not believe the miss of that.

Speaker 2 I could not believe that you've got all of these children sitting in these seats.

Speaker 2 And after this incredible exploration of what it means to be human, the last message you're going to leave them with is, except not for the guys, they're stupid. They don't care.
Exactly.

Speaker 4 And I was watching that movie with... Bobby and two of his friends.
Alice and two of her friends.

Speaker 4 And so this whole thing that gives you permission to have this angst and envy and embarrassment and anxiety and ennui and disgust and explains why you're yelling at your mom when you don't mean to and all the regret and all the fitting in and the horror of that and why it makes you be not the person you want to be because you're just trying to survive.

Speaker 4 Except other than you boys, who clearly, this only the complexity and interest and dynamics only apply to girls.

Speaker 2 Inexcusable. Inexcusable.
I cannot believe that Pixar made that decision. I feel like they should issue an apology.
I don't understand how.

Speaker 4 They should cut that scene.

Speaker 2 They should cut that scene.

Speaker 2 How a bunch of people at a table who have made this beautiful, incredible thing, who have been discussing every iota of it and how to bring more humanity to kids and then would leave that.

Speaker 2 It was an undoing for half the population of every single thing, of all of the permission to feel all of it. It was like, not you.
You just, you know, swallow it and all you care about is sports.

Speaker 2 I just, it was like an apology.

Speaker 4 It was like, we have made and nothing is not strategic. They pressure test all this shit.
They put millions and millions of dollars in this. This was not an oversight.

Speaker 4 This was their assessment that you can only get to touchy feely

Speaker 4 and interpersonal as long as you're not threatening the status quo with boys. Yep.

Speaker 4 As long as you're saying, boys, you can stay exactly the way you are. And like, we don't want to introduce this scary dynamic where boys start really thinking about things.
That's a bridge too far.

Speaker 4 Girls, you can do this. You can do this cute little thing that you do where you think about all your emotions, but we're not going there with boys.
That's a bridge too far.

Speaker 2 And so messed up. That really sucked.
I hated that a lot.

Speaker 4 And it was so like not even in character because the dad the whole time was super sensitive and interesting and complex. And then at the end, not.

Speaker 6 So I do.

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 part was the one part I was like, that sucks.

Speaker 2 I would love, is there somebody in charge of that that would come talk to us about that? Like I seriously want to be like, what on earth?

Speaker 2 I would love to, and I wouldn't be as upset about it if the premise of the entire project

Speaker 2 was helping kids understand their full humanity. It really feels inexcusable to me.
I would.

Speaker 2 love to understand what the hell anybody was thinking that a bunch of little boys sitting there watching would be like, oh, I actually am not allowed to have feelings.

Speaker 2 I just have to care about sports.

Speaker 4 Oh, the other thing that I think was really like going to the virtues of the film, I agree with you. Pixar, can you talk to us about that?

Speaker 4 Because we would like to and we would like to make a pitch for just cutting that little scene.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I think it was really beautiful.

Speaker 4 The whole anxiety, especially with the epidemic, mental health epidemic for kids right now, I think this film

Speaker 4 with the portrayal of anxiety,

Speaker 4 I can't imagine how helpful it is to little ones because it was helpful to me. Like the ability to see anxiety,

Speaker 4 see an actual anxiety attack happen,

Speaker 4 which you never see with kids in film. So they represent an anxiety attack, how it feels, how it looks, so that kids can identify what that is when it's happening to them.
The bigger picture for me,

Speaker 3 which it took 45 years to kind of understand,

Speaker 4 is this idea that

Speaker 4 what presents as our personality,

Speaker 4 what presents as like who we are

Speaker 4 in the world

Speaker 4 is often

Speaker 4 just

Speaker 4 this habitual reliance on one of these emotions. So like Riley is not, her personality is not

Speaker 4 someone who has to,

Speaker 4 it could be, it could look like as a personality, someone who has to constantly perfect, constantly work, constantly keep up with all of these things. Like we could say, oh, that's just her.

Speaker 4 She's just type A. She just wants to be good.
But actually, is it that? Or is that her anxiety that is trying to keep her safe?

Speaker 4 trying to keep her to be accepted that is coming out and presenting as if it's her personality. And that

Speaker 4 is something that I have been trying to figure out for myself. Like how much of my personality that I've accepted as this is just me is actually just the manifestation of my anxiety.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think they did a brilliant job of showing what is the underlying thing that guides that.

Speaker 2 That. pursuing perfection, pursuing not making a mistake.
So the idea that they introduced in this one was that there's a sense of self. Basically, that's just your beliefs about yourself.

Speaker 2 And I thought that that was done beautifully, especially for parents to watch because we so often want to tell our kids, you're good. You're good.
You're so smart. You're so beautiful.
You're so kind.

Speaker 2 You're so brave. And the fact is, sometimes giving them only a positive sense of self ruins everything because then the kid thinks my parent loves me because I'm all of these good things.

Speaker 2 So I can only show those good things. I can only be perfect.
I can only be beautiful. I can only be kind.
But the truth is we are all kind and we are assholes.

Speaker 2 And we are all beautiful and we are all disgusting. And we are all striving.

Speaker 4 Generous and envious and proud and embarrassed.

Speaker 2 So the replacement of this only goodness with this, I am everything.

Speaker 2 then allows kids and adults, myself, I'm learning that now, to be everything. You're not hiding.

Speaker 2 So then anxiety doesn't have to come in and say, block all that stuff out. We have to keep her perfect.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And same with joy, that scene where Joy is saying to anxiety, you have to let her go.

Speaker 6 You don't get to choose.

Speaker 4 You don't get to choose what her sense of self is.

Speaker 4 And then you realize, Joy is realizing that same moment, holy shit.

Speaker 2 Also, I don't get to choose.

Speaker 4 Because Joy kept wanting her sense of self to be like, I'm a good person. I'm a good person.
I'm a good person. And then you see those two merge.
And it's, I'm a good person, I'm a bad person.

Speaker 4 I'm a good person. I am a fearful person.
I am not. And that's when her true,

Speaker 4 I don't have to hide from anything sense of self emerges. And it's like, I'm so happy that my kids were watching that.
I'm like, yes, it isn't you're a good person. It's a you're an everything.

Speaker 2 That's

Speaker 5 that's what I was going to say. You're an everything person.
I think that's just so perfect. And

Speaker 5 I, aside from that one part, I just,

Speaker 5 you know, to explicitly talk about this stuff is so important. We've evolved as a culture over the years.
You can watch whatever. I watched Little Mermaid.
That was my favorite cartoon growing up.

Speaker 5 And there's so much of this stuff talked about, but it's under the radar.

Speaker 5 I love the explicitness of actually talking about this stuff that the kids, my hope is that Bobby was watching this and seeing himself in Riley,

Speaker 5 you know, not the dad in that last fucked up scene. Like, that's my hope.
And I do think that we have evolved enough, but the explicitness is so cool.

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Speaker 2 What character did you all relate to the most? Abby, which which emotion?

Speaker 5 Yeah, joy, big time joy. And anything that compromises joy, I'm just like

Speaker 5 punting those negative emotions as far away from me as possible. So that was a good lesson for me.
Like, oh yeah, I do need to confront some of the beliefs

Speaker 5 about myself

Speaker 5 that I think that I need to have rather than the beliefs that I should have.

Speaker 2 So what do you think is the character you need to introduce the most? If you had to pick one, who do you need to like let come to the dashboard every once in a while?

Speaker 5 Sadness. Ah.

Speaker 2 Okay. Sister?

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 4 identified most with anxiety. I loved seeing anxiety in a positive protective role.
Like even that alone as like anxiety isn't someone we banish. Anxiety isn't someone that we're like, shame on you.

Speaker 4 You ruin everything. Anxiety is just like every other thing like embarrassment and envy trying to protect us and make the best path forward.

Speaker 6 Its intentions

Speaker 4 are just as good as everyone else. You know? And so I really loved that.
I saw that projection scene where it was like anxiety had everyone on the premises working to think of the worst case scenario

Speaker 4 and like come up with it, come up with it, come up with it.

Speaker 2 And that was like, the whole factory is working for Riley's benefit, but they're all populating the entire situation with what is the worst thing that could happen now.

Speaker 4 I was like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 That deeply in my bones. And they even were using the terms that we use in psychology, like projection, like you're projecting onto the future.
What, and they were literally projecting it on screens.

Speaker 4 It was beautiful.

Speaker 4 So anxiety is what I resonated and loved most.

Speaker 4 What do I need more of?

Speaker 2 Like, if you could invite one of the characters to the dashboard for the day, like what would it, which one would it be? And you could tell all the other ones to go away. Hmm.

Speaker 4 I guess joy.

Speaker 2 Joy.

Speaker 4 I also thought it was really interesting interesting how, and I loved how sadness, it wasn't, sadness was doing the primary work.

Speaker 4 Joy was pushing, pushing, pushing, but it took sadness to be the bridge between joy and anxiety. Yeah.
Sadness was the one who had to figure out, how do I get this done? How do I relate to everything?

Speaker 4 And so I think that was a really cool missing piece of sadness as the bridge between like, I can understand joy because I go.

Speaker 4 And there was that one scene where joy was like, we go everywhere together, joy and sadness.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 They were sisters and flip sides of the same coin.

Speaker 4 And it was like sadness had this special connection with embarrassment because when we're embarrassed, we're just so sad. And when we're, and anxiety is trying to avoid us being sad.
And so

Speaker 4 there is some kind of magic and sadness that I feel like I'm just on the cusp of

Speaker 4 understanding.

Speaker 4 And I thought it was really interesting that, and I have not spoken with Bobby yet about his reactions, but I talked to the Alice and her two friends that went, and all three of them, their favorite character, was sadness.

Speaker 2 Because sadness is like so patient, and you just feel like you trust sadness. Joy,

Speaker 2 I love joy, but joy is a little manic, man. And it always is.
It's like, oh, God, let's not, it's joy is like avoidant.

Speaker 2 Joy is like, oh, let's not let anything else in. And

Speaker 2 sadness just has this unrelenting

Speaker 2 presence and calm. And, oh, you're going to deal with me eventually type energy.

Speaker 4 Joy is directional. Joy is action.
Joy is movement. Same with anxieties.
Joy is going somewhere, get on the train. Yeah.
Right. Where sadness is just kept saying over and over, that's so sad.

Speaker 2 So sad.

Speaker 2 And was just like there to,

Speaker 4 be doing what needed to be done, not enthusiastically.

Speaker 2 Right. But she was doing it.

Speaker 2 She did do it.

Speaker 5 It's a presence because if you were to get real present and not think about the past and not think about the future, there will always be some sense of sadness there.

Speaker 5 And I think all of the emotions, and that is such a beautiful thing. because it equates to me the preciousness of what we're doing here and the impermanence of what we're doing.

Speaker 5 And that every present moment, we are moving beyond the prior present moment. And there is a sadness to that.

Speaker 5 And also, it's a beautiful thing, but there's like that, the groundedness and the presence of sadness is, I think, is probably closer to the truth than maybe even joy.

Speaker 5 I think what you're saying is right, sister. Agreed.

Speaker 4 When you think about it, the whole premise of this show,

Speaker 4 this all starts because she's going to this camp and finds out her two best friends aren't going to her school next year.

Speaker 4 And that kickoff,

Speaker 4 everybody comes, joins in because we can't sit with the sadness of how sad that is. That's right.

Speaker 4 That they're leaving, that the two of them are going to be together, that she will be by herself and have to make new friends. The whole reason anxiety comes in.

Speaker 4 The whole reason joy is pushing to like get rid of those feelings is because we can't possibly just be sad about that.

Speaker 4 And I think so much, I just haven't done the work yet, but I think so much of maybe

Speaker 4 how I am with my kids, where the need to like spin up action and movement and whatever is about just not being able to accept the sadness of reality, which is that they're going to experience deep sadness I can never protect them from.

Speaker 4 And they're going to like face things that I never had to face. And my anxiety rushes in to be like, that can't be so.
We can make it better. We can make it better.
Joy is like, look,

Speaker 4 look, you're so happy. We can make you happy, you know? But is it all to avoid? I think it's all to try to pretend like we are not just left with sadness.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 5 It's almost like sadness kind of gets a bad name. We should be calling sadness deeply feeling.

Speaker 2 The ache, depth. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But it makes sense because we're made this weird way, right? Where the only thing that's permanent about life is change.

Speaker 2 And the only thing that's permanent about humans is we prefer not change.

Speaker 2 So, so the basis of being human is sadness because you are constantly witnessing change that you would prefer it not to be happening. So, oh my God, it's such a bad design.

Speaker 2 It's like the only thing we know about life is we're going to die.

Speaker 4 We are evolved for every single thing inside of us to avoid death at all costs.

Speaker 2 But it's only a bad design if sadness is bad. Yeah.
That's what I don't think is right.

Speaker 2 Right. It's only a bad design because we've added this layer where we're like, and also,

Speaker 2 all we can be is sad and we shouldn't be sad. Sadness is bad.
What if sadness is the shit?

Speaker 2 What if sadness is the place where we become the most human, where we're not so like annoying and chipper and chirpy and joyy and distracting?

Speaker 2 And the sadness is like a beautiful place where we can all meet and be our most human.

Speaker 5 That's why there's so much strife in the world, it feels like people not being able to sit in their sadness.

Speaker 2 I love, here's what I think was most important to me,

Speaker 2 just because of the place I'm in right now: is I loved how they pointed out what anxiety is good for and what she's not good for.

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 like for me, I've been doing this thing recently where

Speaker 2 I'm like

Speaker 2 literally, like, for real each morning writing down, okay, what

Speaker 2 are the things that I can control? And what are the things? It's I'm like God box, Glennon box, okay? Two lists.

Speaker 2 And on the God side, I'm picturing myself putting, I'm actually going to get a box right now.

Speaker 2 I've just been writing it down, but putting every single thing that I'm quote, worrying or anxious about in its rightful place. Oh, here's a God thing.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Amazing journey with, you know, recruitment, all the shit that's happening right now. I cannot, I can't, there's nothing I can do, right?

Speaker 2 Things about co-parenting, things about my adult children's lives. And it's so amazing because

Speaker 2 I cannot tell you how much it helps me. It's so silly and cheesy.
I understand that. But when you realize

Speaker 2 how little is on your list, 99% of the things that I spend my entire day in anxiety about.

Speaker 2 The reason why it's a problem is because my poor anxiety can't do the job that I've given it.

Speaker 2 So basically, each morning I'm like, um, can you figure out how to like heal my generational trauma in 24 hours?

Speaker 2 Also, anxiety, can you figure out how to make my daughter's college experience go perfectly for her?

Speaker 2 Anxiety, can you figure out how to like get my other daughter's rock star career to work out perfectly with no problems? Also, can you figure out how to like keep my sister healthy?

Speaker 2 It's like, no, it will try though, it tries.

Speaker 2 And so it's not fair to anxiety because there's this moment in the movie where Joy looks and says, okay, anxiety, what can you control today?

Speaker 2 She takes anxiety away from the dashboard and puts her in a chair in the back.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And is like, what can you work on today? And there's one thing. She's like, I think we have a test today.

Speaker 2 And Joy's like, great, do that.

Speaker 2 That is the most important thing to me because

Speaker 2 I can't tell you how much my day gets better as soon as I see the list of things that it is not fair for me to put my anxiety self on.

Speaker 2 These are God things. Like these are universe things, out of control things.
This is the serenity prayer. Grant me the ba, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 Grant me, kill the things I cannot control or whatever that means.

Speaker 5 Grant me the string.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So

Speaker 4 that.

Speaker 2 for me is like there are no bad parts

Speaker 2 there are just bad applications of parts.

Speaker 2 If you are trying to get anxiety to fix the problems of the earth and being human that will never be fixed because they are completely out of our control, like other people, like health, like the way the world works, like war, like pain, if you are applying your little anxiety brain to those things, you will have no room in your life for any of the other emotions.

Speaker 2 But if you can give anxiety a job each day, which is like the tiny little thing it can control, put it in its seat,

Speaker 2 all the other emotions get to come forward. There's this moment where joy says, is there just less joy? As they get older, is there just less room for joy? Is that just a fact of life?

Speaker 2 And I think there is a little bit, but I think it's because as we get older, we think we can control more. And so we bring anxiety to the table for so many things and joy gets smushed out.

Speaker 5 I think it's because because we start developing different kinds of emotions.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 I don't believe that joy gets put out, that somebody else comes in and takes over the control panel. But I also believe that emotions can happen simultaneously.

Speaker 5 I think that there can be real joy happening and anxiety. I think that things are happening simultaneously.

Speaker 5 So the more emotions we learn, the more behaviors, emotionals, behaviors that we learn, sometimes when the overlap happens,

Speaker 5 I think that sometimes the anxiety

Speaker 5 we can focus our attention and feel the anxiety more than the joy that's present there.

Speaker 5 That's what I think happens.

Speaker 2 Okay, you guys, so that's what we're watching.

Speaker 2 Pixar, cut the last scene, and get in touch with us. Okay,

Speaker 2 but also, good job on the rest.

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Speaker 3 We can do our things is brought to you by Bumble, the app committed to bring people closer to love. I went through it in my first marriage.

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Speaker 2 The question was also, what are we reading? So I'm going to to tell you all what I'm reading. And I also want to say that people often ask me why I don't talk more about what I'm reading.

Speaker 2 Why don't I have a book club? Why don't I da-da-da-da? I know you're always reading. Why aren't you whatever? Okay.
So here's why I don't do that. Because

Speaker 2 I think of it, Abby, as remember when you several years ago, you tried your hand at commentating a soccer game.

Speaker 2 You did like the Euros or something. You were behind the

Speaker 5 eight years ago now 2016.

Speaker 2 right and you hated it so much you hated commentating yes and why did you hate commentating because

Speaker 5 well a bunch of reasons but the primary reason was because it felt so critical the way that i was actually seeing the game was from a different lens.

Speaker 5 Like I had this critical lens that was over my eyes and I hated that because it took all of the joy. I wasn't seeing the hope and the excitement.

Speaker 5 I was just trying to break down what I would do different. And like, yeah, I was a great soccer player, but I have no idea what's going on in their locker room.

Speaker 5 I don't know, you know, what they think of their coach. I don't know what they feel about each other.
I am projecting all of my assumptions. And I just think it's not for me.

Speaker 2 Right. So that is, I think, how I feel about this thing.
Like reading is so,

Speaker 2 it is not a realm

Speaker 2 in which I want to start thinking of it in terms of what's better and best and the bestest and the worstest.

Speaker 2 I don't want to start thinking about it.

Speaker 4 Like the star thing where it's like, this is four stars instead of five stars.

Speaker 2 And it's like, this is someone's soul that they're bearing. Exactly.
I know what it takes to write a book. I know.
the soul bearing nature of it.

Speaker 2 I know that when you write a book, you put every bit and more of your heart and soul and brain and whatever.

Speaker 2 And I do not want, and reading for me is the most sacred relationship I've ever had before my marriage since I was little. That is where I found my connection, my joy.

Speaker 2 I am not about to start saying, oh, I don't like that that author. And by the way, whenever I don't like a book or I don't whatever, it's because of the time I'm in.

Speaker 2 There's a million times where I relate so much to something that I didn't like 10 years ago and it has nothing to do with a hierarchy or I don't want to start rating art.

Speaker 2 I don't want to start bringing a critical eye to art. I want to keep my love for it and my joy for it and not commodify it.
And maybe there's a time when I'll figure out how to do that.

Speaker 2 I also don't want to like, you know, when people have book clubs and then everyone starts hoping that they,

Speaker 2 then your relationships are weird because you're like, wait, do I have to like, will she pick my book? Exactly.

Speaker 2 Most of my friends are writers. I don't want that.
So anyway.

Speaker 2 And, but I also will

Speaker 2 tell you now what I'm reading. And then I have this thing.
Whenever I see things online where people are like trying to read,

Speaker 2 I don't know what they do, like 100 books over the summer or 100. And they're bragging about it.
And I'm like, oh my God, I'm always hiding how much I read because I do. I hide it.

Speaker 2 First of all, I read too fast. Abby's always like, can you slow down?

Speaker 2 Because we keep having to buy a book every day. And

Speaker 2 I would like to slow down. I would like to eat slower also.
I don't like that I sit down at the table, I'm done in four minutes. I would like to be one of those people who luxury

Speaker 2 in a meal.

Speaker 4 You want to savor the book.

Speaker 2 Yes, but for some reason, I have to know as fast as humanly possible what is going to happen to these people. So it goes fast.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I have read six books in the last six days. Okay.
And that is not a lie. So I'm going to tell you what I've read.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I promised myself I'm in an era of fiction. Okay.
Okay. Summer is a fiction time for me because,

Speaker 2 well, for reasons we've already talked about today, because I'm trying to move towards a life of juiciness,

Speaker 2 of

Speaker 2 joy and comfort and luxuriating and indulging and

Speaker 2 cozy and soft and delicious, as opposed to like my non-fiction

Speaker 2 be better, Glenn. Do better.
Strive. Be better.

Speaker 2 today god damn it yeah every book is like this one has the answer this one will fix me this one like this at least learn a historical nugget for all this sitting god it's so exhausting and the weird thing is novels always make me think more and make me light up connections more truly honestly than non-fiction does and no thanks to non-fiction it's what i write but what you say about fiction which is also what you say about the Bible, is that

Speaker 4 these things didn't necessarily happen,

Speaker 4 but they're true.

Speaker 2 So they can be true and not real.

Speaker 4 They're realer in the sense of

Speaker 4 big picture truth than they're actually like

Speaker 5 based on real historic events.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it just feels sometimes like nonfiction is more, feels like of a little more like a puddle and like novel is like the ocean.

Speaker 4 Well, I love nonfiction too, but I'm just saying it isn't like a stratum. This is a fanciful, not real thing.
And this other thing is the serious thing.

Speaker 4 They're both serious and real from just different angles.

Speaker 2 I think we got it. So

Speaker 5 you guys just went. for five minutes.

Speaker 2 You can't be like, fuck your fiction, nonfiction analysis.

Speaker 2 You're not interested in that part doesn't mean it wasn't. I love this discussion.

Speaker 5 It was a good discussion for the first three to four minutes. And then we got into the fifth and sixth minute where you're last minute jump to sharp.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we get, we got it.

Speaker 5 You both like nonfiction. Glennon loves fiction.

Speaker 2 Okay. So here's what I've read.
I read Martyr. Oh my God.

Speaker 2 Everyone must go get the book Martyr. Okay.
I want to read it. What's it about?

Speaker 2 So it's about this boy who's trying to kind of figure out whether he's a nihilist or is going to choose life in a million different ways. And it's utterly gorgeous.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I've read this book called Within Arms Reach,

Speaker 2 which

Speaker 2 Anne Neapolitan,

Speaker 2 okay? So she wrote Dear Edward and Hello Beautiful.

Speaker 2 And this book, Within Arms Reach, she wrote, I think like 25 years ago, but it was like, it didn't sell a bunch of copies because she wasn't as famous as she is now.

Speaker 2 But then her last books did so well that they reissued this first one. All I'll tell you about it is it's about how much we love each other and how we can't reach each other,

Speaker 2 how all of our, we cannot love each other.

Speaker 2 It's about how we love each other so much that we cannot love each other. Okay.

Speaker 2 And I will tell you that Abby and I finally got away for my birthday vacation. We got away for three days and I was outside of this little cabin just bawling.
I don't know the end of the book.

Speaker 2 And I haven't cried out a book for so long. I just, it's the moment of life I'm in.
It's about raising adult children. It's about trying to love people and doing it wrong.
And

Speaker 2 it's about Irish families. And

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 5 What is that one called again?

Speaker 2 Within arms reach. Okay.
I read a book called Sandwich.

Speaker 2 You're going to sense a theme in all these books that I'm picking this summer, but it's about a mom who takes her kids to the Cape Cod Sound or something.

Speaker 2 And she's between, she's raising her adult kids and she is the adult child of her parents who are there too. So thus the title sandwich.

Speaker 2 And it's a real beauty. Okay.
That one. Then I read this book called Margo's Got Money Problems

Speaker 2 about a 20-year-old who gets pregnant, has a baby, and then tries to make her way starting an OnlyFans account.

Speaker 2 Fucking delight. Just a delight of a book.

Speaker 2 Just a delight. Okay.
It's about masculinity and femininity and morality and fighting for your kid. And it's just good stuff.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And then I read a book called Bear.

Speaker 2 Oh, I've heard about this.

Speaker 2 Oh, shit. I don't even know.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 It's about a town. It's about two sisters and a bear that shows up at their house one day and then what plays out afterwards.
I think that it's about sisterhood and enmeshment

Speaker 2 and i think that the bear is the symbol of life

Speaker 2 and the terror and beauty of life wowza

Speaker 2 okay

Speaker 2 so good

Speaker 2 and then Lastly, I read this one called Thou Shall Not Kill about it was this Palestinian doctor who wrote about his entire experience in Palestine and Israel and his

Speaker 2 just

Speaker 2 it's fiction no oh no that one was I snuck in a non-fiction you're right okay okay yes yes absolutely gorgeous

Speaker 2 so all of them I recommend every single one and I don't recommend one more than the other I have just had a really excellent you've had a good run sis I've had a good run I mean just I was at a soccer tournament for five days so that's how I got six books right right right that'll do it yeah yeah do you guys want to know what I'm watching yes

Speaker 2 all right.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 4 tiny ponies.

Speaker 5 No. If you are

Speaker 5 listening to this pod squad, I'm going to be appealing to more of the,

Speaker 5 I don't know,

Speaker 5 less

Speaker 5 intense crowd.

Speaker 5 The

Speaker 5 non-reader, if you will, the just love to turn on a show.

Speaker 5 And I just love a little bit of drama kind of a person.

Speaker 5 It's called Perfect Match. Oh, Jesus.

Speaker 5 On Netflix. Okay.

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, what Netflix has done here is that they now have like these dating game shows.

Speaker 2 Ooh.

Speaker 5 Like, for an example, Love is Blind. That's one that I love also.

Speaker 4 Check it out.

Speaker 5 Nick Lachey is, in fact, the host.

Speaker 2 I think he was like a backstreet. Nick Lachey.

Speaker 4 He was the one who was major Jessica Simpson and is now married to

Speaker 2 Mrs. Lachey.
Mrs. Lachey.
Vanessa. vanessa lache these shows are just for me

Speaker 5 where i'm at right now in my life where i'm looking for other people's problems and not my own i am not looking inward right now i'm just you're down with opp

Speaker 5 i am looking for other people's problems and this show is giving me that i have done the work for a while I am giving myself a break from my fucking self. You guys is what I'm doing this summer.

Speaker 2 yes to that yes abby wombach and you deserve that a break we we don't have anything left we don't have booze left we don't have drugs left we don't have smoking left we don't have anything left they will take reality tv from our cold dead hands yep and also i will say do you know what adrian marie brown told me recently because she's really into reality tv so is yabba so all these like people that i think of as like super amazingly deep activists are like also watching the real housewives and i'm like what is happening here what because something is happening here.

Speaker 2 Yabba calls 90 Day Fiancé cultural anthropology.

Speaker 5 I fucking love that show.

Speaker 5 I fucking love that show. And the other way, oh my God.

Speaker 2 I do too.

Speaker 2 So Adrian said, I think it's like people who are always trying, women, who are always trying so hard to be good

Speaker 2 love

Speaker 2 watching for an hour. Nobody trying to be good.

Speaker 5 Nobody's watching those shows for just an hour.

Speaker 2 Those people are just wild westing of the morality. and it is freeing and there is something that is inspiring and hell yes about it and ps

Speaker 2 do you know that bozema saint john our front yes i know just got cast on the real housewives of beverly hills i mean couldn't have been a more perfect fit it's the best cast it's gonna be my first time watching it because ever watching real housewives because she's gonna own it because

Speaker 2 and also can you please just watch it sister we just need you to watch it because watching oh i will because of her yeah i mean i just when is it happening soon i don't know i'll tell you when okay the last question is what are we listening to and i do want to mention that we just took the girls to a noah khan concert

Speaker 2 at the hollywood bowl and

Speaker 2 we just cried for two hours the kids noah khan We've been listening to Noah Khan for years, okay? Because our kids brought him into our life early.

Speaker 2 He is this amazing mixture. It's the perfect storm of things for me.
It's like generational trauma, love,

Speaker 2 nostalgia, mental health, addiction. It is like he is in the ocean, man.
He is just swimming in the ocean. And he's bringing these kids, all this stuff that people don't talk about.

Speaker 2 I mean, There was a moment where he set up the entire concert, the stage.

Speaker 2 They brought these couches out and this specific art and these huge pictures. It looked like Noah's childhood pictures.
And he said, I'm trying to recreate my mom's living room up here.

Speaker 2 And then he said,

Speaker 2 but I couldn't fit the generational trauma up here. So you have to do without that.
I mean, the stage isn't big enough for the generational trauma.

Speaker 4 Just introducing that term to that. Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 Huge. He says, This song, I mean, there's a song called All My Love that's about divorce.

Speaker 2 And he says, Oh, God. This is for all the divorced kids out there

Speaker 2 he goes can we say two christmases can we say 16 days of hanukkah and our kids stood up and just bawled throughout all my love through the whole divorce thing and then he goes and by the way i'm just so biased and so i don't mean this literally just deal with it okay but he goes i need you all to know because all the kids of divorce stand up you know thousands and thousands of kiddos that it's not your fault the divorce is not your fault he goes it's your dad's fault

Speaker 2 and then he goes

Speaker 2 dad's house is weird and empty

Speaker 2 and all of these kids who think their situation is only theirs they're all seeing each other They're all bawling. The kids are holding each other.

Speaker 2 I was looking at my kids and I feel like I have created these stories in my head about,

Speaker 2 oh, yeah, we're a family of divorce, but like, not really, because we've worked it out and we're da-da-da, and we're co-pandemic, we only have one Christmas,

Speaker 2 we only have one Christmas. It's like my stories and defense mechanisms jump, and that's what I see.

Speaker 2 But I was looking at them

Speaker 2 bawling during the divorce song

Speaker 2 and seeing them for what they actually are, which is they did go through this. That is their reality.
This is who they are. I mean, it just,

Speaker 2 I have so much

Speaker 2 love in my heart for Noah Khan, is all I'm saying. I feel like he's doing such,

Speaker 2 by the way, besides all of this, like goodness that he's putting, he's just fucking incredible musician.

Speaker 5 Anyway, I have something I'm listening to, I think, that the pod squad needs to know.

Speaker 2 Oh, great. Chapel Roan.
Chapel Roan,

Speaker 2 H-O-T-T-O-G-O.

Speaker 5 Listen, all of us millennials slash Gen Xers listening to this podcast,

Speaker 5 just give it a couple listens. Give Chapel Roan a couple listens because

Speaker 5 first couple times I was like, can't stand this because one of her songs was about Pink Barbie.

Speaker 2 Pink Pony Club.

Speaker 5 Pink Pony Club. I just interpreted it as Barbie and I was like,

Speaker 5 this is annoying to me. It's catchy as fuck.
And it's great. It's the summer anthem.
Chapel Roan has blown up.

Speaker 5 Chapel Roan went from, I think Spotify or Apple Music, I can't remember. In three months,

Speaker 5 her numbers went from, I don't know,

Speaker 5 100,000 to 24 million. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Whoa.

Speaker 2 But she's been working so hard for so long. Her first music deal was in high school, and now she's in her upper 20s.
Yeah. She's always in drag.

Speaker 2 Her roots and her passion is the drag community, and she's constantly honoring of them and like brings that. That's Pink Pony Club is about like leaving your small town and finding your

Speaker 2 juiciest self in LA.

Speaker 5 Her music is incredible. I'm so here for it and so is the rest of the world.
So check it out.

Speaker 4 I love it. And what you just said, G, about Noah and the it's your dad's fault and dad's house is weird and empty.
I really want to do an episode on

Speaker 4 boys

Speaker 4 right now and masculinity and what's happening there because I feel like we want to say, oh, that's such a stereotype and that's not true, but it is true. It is true.
And in the majority of cases.

Speaker 4 And the reason it's true is not because boys are inherently weird and empty and unable to hold down a household. It's because.
of the way we're raising them and the way we're socializing them.

Speaker 4 And this Atlantic article recently that I read was like

Speaker 4 very fascinating on this subject and had this whole thing that's like boys get everything. Boys in America get

Speaker 4 every privilege and everything

Speaker 4 except the most important thing.

Speaker 4 And they don't get

Speaker 4 real human connection and an invitation to that and like a requirement of that.

Speaker 4 And so they are like

Speaker 2 over

Speaker 4 benefited and deprived on the most important things. And that's how you end up with a weird empty house where you don't know how to create connection.

Speaker 4 And I just think we need to do, we talk so much about girls and women, we need to do that and figure that out.

Speaker 2 It's like looking at somebody and like giving them all the money, drenching them with jewels, covering them with all, and then saying, but you can't have any water. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Let's do an episode on that. It's so important because I think people are scared to talk about what they see in front of their faces, which is what's wrong? Are the men okay? Like, why

Speaker 2 do they struggle so much with connection, with carrying emotional load? It's okay to say what you see. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But then also not dismiss it as unnuanced and uncomplicated and not something that we are all contributing to.

Speaker 2 And with the goal of not just like pointing it out and shaming it, but like, how do we do? This isn't working.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it isn't working. And it dovetails with the

Speaker 4 conversation that we're going to have about the anxious generation about, you know, why we're ending up the way we are with boys and girls.

Speaker 2 And it also loops back to the beginning of our conversation. If you want to know why,

Speaker 2 it's because of things like what we talked about in the beginning. It's like.

Speaker 2 Even when we delve into this thing of like, oh my God, what if we're all human?

Speaker 2 There is always something that maintains the masculinity status quo that says, nope, but back in their boxes, just like Inside Out did at the end of the movie.

Speaker 2 Just like, no matter what, no matter how deep we get, we still put them in that corner. So why? Why is that so important? We just, we definitely need to delve into that.

Speaker 4 And why is that not just as offensive? That's my thing.

Speaker 4 Like, if we had done a whole Disney movie about ambition, which we did for a lot of years and kept gender roles and put women in boxes, but then we did a whole one about ambition and purpose and career and drive and then had a scene at the end that that was like, oh, except for women, you stay in your box of no ambition.

Speaker 4 That became offensive and we had to fix that.

Speaker 4 But we still in 2024 have won about emotions and connections and nuance and complexity, interior complexity, and have it end with, except for boys, get back in your box. That doesn't happen.

Speaker 4 But we're not outraged about that. We are supposed to laugh.

Speaker 2 And like, how we don't have to get into that, but it's so like shaming to the guys. It's like, okay, all right, we got to go.
Um, we love you.

Speaker 2 Go watch all the things, listen to the things, read the things. And then also, Pod Squad, would you tell us what you're reading, what you're watching, and what you're listening to?

Speaker 2 I really just need to not every single day ask Abby what we should watch. So

Speaker 4 and also tell us who you love that's talking about boys and men and masculinity and how to raise boys better and more real. 747-200-5307.

Speaker 2 And not even just raise, but like relate to in the the world. I would like to understand.

Speaker 5 Love you guys. Gotta go.
Bye.

Speaker 2 If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Speaker 2 Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

Speaker 2 To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

Speaker 2 This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

Speaker 2 We appreciate you very much.

Speaker 2 We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Speaker 2 Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.